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Smoothdave1
06-08-2008, 10:17 PM
Didn't see that anyone noted this article. A sportswriter from the Chicago Sun Times speculated on a JO for Bulls package deal:

'Either I can play or I can't'
Pierce's inspiring return from Game 1 injury doesn't mean he isn't hurt

June 8, 2008

BY JOHN JACKSON Sun-Times Columnist

On the market

If the Bulls decide to select Memphis point guard Derrick Rose with the top pick in the draft this month, they might seek to fill their need for a low-post scorer by acquiring Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal.

The Pacers would prefer not to deal O'Neal within the Central Division, but they might not have much choice. O'Neal has two years and $44 million left on his contract and a recent history of injuries, so few teams would be in position -- or willing -- to make a play for the 12-year veteran.

The Bulls, though, are one of those teams. They have the players -- and, more important, the big-money contracts -- to get a deal done. A proposal built around forward Tyrus Thomas ($3.75 million), one of the Bulls' excess guards -- Larry Hughes ($12.8 million), Kirk Hinrich ($10 million) or Ben Gordon (restricted free agent) -- and a future draft pick meets the salary-cap requirements and might be the best offer the Pacers get.

Although O'Neal is a former All-Star, his value won't be very high because of his contract and because he averaged just 13.6 points and 6.7 rebounds last season. The team that trades for O'Neal will be gambling that he can regain his health, which is far from a certainty.

Here's the link:

www.suntimes.com/sports/jackson/993242,CST-SPT-jax08.article

And yes, I would do a Bulls-JO deal. The writer speculates on a JO for Hinrich/Thomas and pick deal. I could envision a deal similar to this (works under CBA):

JO & Diogu & 2nd rd pick for Hinrich, Hughes and Thomas

JO's salary next year: 21.35 million, Diogu is set to earn 2.9 million. Total: 24.25 million

Hinrich will earn 10 million, Hughes 12.825 and Thomas will earn 3.75 million. Total: 26.575 million

Why for Indy? Indy finally rids itself of JO and gets back a solid point, a young player in Thomas and a decent starter or 6th man in Hughes. Pacers could use their #11 pick for a big like Jordan or Speights?

Why for Chicago? Bulls dump some longer contracts in Hinrich and Hughes and add a big man and clears room for Rose.

New Pacer lineup:

Hinrich, Diener, fa
Hughes, Daniels, fa
Granger, Williams, Graham
Dunleavy, Thomas, Richard Hendrix 2nd rd pick
Murphy, Foster, #11 pick

Any thoughts?

Trader Joe
06-08-2008, 10:25 PM
I think I'd rather keep JO if thats the best we can get.

Hicks
06-08-2008, 10:33 PM
I really don't want Thomas.

jeffg-body
06-08-2008, 10:39 PM
I would be ok with it as long as there is another deal after that one that rids us of Tinsley.

Pig Nash
06-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Dunleavy's a Power Forward now? news to me.

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 11:03 PM
Dunleavy's a Power Forward now? news to me.

He's been working on strength and conditioning two summers in a row now. I bet by fall we're calling him the white Dale Davis. :duck:

As for the article, I would remind anyone to look at the ridiculous trash in the Star this morning before taking this with a molecule of salt.

croz24
06-08-2008, 11:04 PM
it's too bad we couldn't do this jo to chicago deal prior to the trade deadline this year. man was i wanting that chicago 2008 1st, and as it turns out, for good reason.

Raoul Duke
06-08-2008, 11:12 PM
Thomas, a signed Gordon and a future 1st for JO? Hell yeah

tadscout
06-08-2008, 11:13 PM
As for the article, I would remind anyone to look at the ridiculous trash in the Star this morning before taking this with a molecule of salt.

Just what I was about to say... this is only speculation... there are no sources or anything of credibility...

Also if you check his deal of Thomas and one of the guards isn't enough in salary to make the deal work (unless you're going to really overpay Gordon in the S&T)... if he is going to speculate you'd think he could at least provide a deal that would work... :dunce:

Eindar
06-08-2008, 11:15 PM
I'd do that deal in a second. Strengthens a position of need, gives us a draft pick, and some young (though immature) talent at the SF/PF position.

Young
06-08-2008, 11:17 PM
This idea makes more sense than the ones from the Star.

I think Jermaine to Chicago Kirk Hinrich plus ? could work for both clubs. Although i'm not big on Tyrus Thomas.

Maybe something like Hinrich, Drew Gooden, and Aaron Gray for Jermaine.

croz24
06-08-2008, 11:18 PM
not saying i'm the biggest thomas fan, but the kid really put together some very solid games late this year and is still just 21 years old.

tadscout
06-08-2008, 11:21 PM
Thomas, a signed Gordon and a future 1st for JO? Hell yeah

To make that deal work you'd have to sign Gordon to a deal around the size of Michael Redd's contract (around 14.5 mil.).... :eek:

Shade
06-08-2008, 11:31 PM
I would consider JO for Thomas/Gordon/future pick or Thomas/Hinrich/future pick.

Just, please God, NO LARRY HUGHES.

Smoothdave1
06-08-2008, 11:34 PM
Dunleavy is not a 4 and he's not a 2 either, but plays there because of Granger. This would be if the Pacers acquired Hughes as I coul see him starting at the 2 and the Pacers going with a small lineup of Hinrich, Hughes, Granger, Dunleavy and Foster/Murphy that could run.

PR07
06-08-2008, 11:57 PM
I don't want Larry Hughes. He's a rich man's Marquis Daniels, and his contract is awful.

How about JO for Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas, Chris Duhon (S&T)?

BleedBlue
06-09-2008, 12:42 AM
I would love to have Ben Gordon. This would also make Dunleavy expendable and give us different options with the 11th pick.

Jose Slaughter
06-09-2008, 12:50 AM
If the Bulls offer is going to include Thomas & Hinrich the only other player they could add to put the deal in the JO salary ball park would be Gooden.

Thomas 3.7
Hinrich 10.0
Gooden 7.1

For a total of 20.8

JO is listed at 21.3 next season

Thomas is the final year of his deal with a team option for the following season.

Hinrich has four years left but his salary drops each season.

Gooden is in the final year of his deal.

If we let Gooden & Thomas walk after next season we would save 10.6 off what we would have had to pay O'Neal in 09-10.

Pick up the Thomas option and that drops to 5.9 in savings.

Even without the draft pick its a sweet deal.

Infinite MAN_force
06-09-2008, 01:19 AM
JO for Hinrich, Gooden, and Thomas is a great deal. If the they are proposing that in the CHICAGO media, than somebody get on the phone with larry quick.

In all reality, a chicago deal will probably involve us taking on hughes. In which case you can do either

JO for Hinrich/Hughes

or

JO/Diogu for Hinrich/Hughes/Thomas

Hughes has an aweful contract but it is not any longer than JO's, so it doesen't make our contract situation any worse for the present, just the same, but we get Hinrich. Hughes could make a good expiring deal after next season to possibly try to move.

themayhem87
06-09-2008, 01:48 AM
i would love JO and Diogu for Hinrich/Hughes/Thomas....but they would never do it. They know just like everybody in the league knows JO is soft and injury prone. Then man can barely make it through half a season anymore. who would want him?

duke dynamite
06-09-2008, 02:00 AM
Not too sure there about making Dunleavy a PF all too well. I'm okay with letting JO go to the Bulls, but I really only think we would benefit with receiving Hinrich and Ben Gordon.

DGPR
06-09-2008, 02:54 AM
Hopefully the Bulls take Derrick Rose with the 1st pick so that Kirk Hinrich becomes available.

Mourning
06-09-2008, 03:28 AM
I can't believe what I'm reading! Yes, yes, yes, please!

BBALL56HACKER
06-09-2008, 06:14 AM
I like J.O./IKE to Chicago for Thomas/ Hinrich / future 1st plus Gooden (1year left with Daniels & Foster that would be over 20 mil off next year)

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 07:27 AM
I really don't want Thomas.

Tyrus Thomas? Why not?

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 07:29 AM
Dunleavy's a Power Forward now? news to me.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of using Dunleavy or Granger at the PF spot. They are most effective right where they are.

D-BONE
06-09-2008, 08:24 AM
I don't know how realistic these proposals would sound to Chicago. From the Pacers POV, I don't think there is any way in hell you get better in return for JO barring a miraculous return to health and circa 2004-level play. I hope nobody's holding their breath for that!

rexnom
06-09-2008, 08:25 AM
Everyone will be trying to steal JO this summer. Larry shouldn't trade him.

Anthem
06-09-2008, 08:37 AM
Everyone will be trying to steal JO this summer.
That would be cool. I didn't think JO could cause a bidding war, but anything like that would be good for us.

Doddage
06-09-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't really care for Ben Gordon. I'd rather have Hinrich, although either way if we can get a pick out of it, that'd be pretty solid.

Anthem
06-09-2008, 08:41 AM
In all reality, a chicago deal will probably involve us taking on hughes.
Then let's pass. He's exactly what we don't need.

D-BONE
06-09-2008, 09:11 AM
JO should have been moved last summer when there was still shards of something decent in the mix. I don't expect we'll be able to command much from him going forward. First, there's the obvious physical maladies. If he's able to truly overcome those, I don't think that he'll ever reach his double-double level again. In fact, I think best case he's an accomplished shot blocker, slightly underachieving rebounder, and occasional post scorer.

However, my biggest rub with JO is that too many people on here give him the benefit of the doubt as to his intangible contribution to this team. He's never been an effective team leader, I have doubts as to how seriously he's ever taken off-season conditioning, he has since he signed the big contract been very focues on himself, him being the man on the team, him being an All-Star, him being the go to guy, and so forth. Finally, he's been floating hints that he doesn't want to be here for at least two years now.

I'll give you that he's fairly photogenic and tactful in interacting with the press and that he's kept his nose clean off the court. If you take the side that doesn't blame him for not wanting to go through the process and time it will take to build this group back up to a competitive team, I can understand it but it that still implies that he's not truly 100% in it moving forward.

A healthy JO on a true contending team might be worth more to his destination squad than what they will offer us. Still, on a contender he's maybe 3rd or 4th option on the team. Add that to his true market value and you see that some of the rumors and proposals (JO for Z, AV, 1st rd or JO for Hinrich, Thomas type combos) are really fairly good. As good as we could hope to get. I don't expect them to get significantly better if we hang on to JO b/c he'll be unhappy and frustrated with our team's development and he'll be battling his own health.

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 09:17 AM
it's too bad we couldn't do this jo to chicago deal prior to the trade deadline this year. man was i wanting that chicago 2008 1st, and as it turns out, for good reason. Even if they would have agreed to that, you can guarantee it would have carried a top 3 protection with it. No way they would have agreed to a blanket surrender of their pick with a chance to get Beasley or Rose in this draft.

Anthem
06-09-2008, 09:21 AM
Even if they would have agreed to that, you can guarantee it would have carried a top 3 protection with it. No way they would have agreed to a blanket surrender of their pick with a chance to get Beasley or Rose in this draft.
Wouldn't have mattered. If they'd had 20 games of JO they would have made the playoffs.

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 09:34 AM
not saying i'm the biggest thomas fan, but the kid really put together some very solid games late this year and is still just 21 years old.

I agree. I think what he needs is a heady veteran influence to teach him how to be a professional. That's why the Veteran/Young talent mix is important. I think if someone played a role in his professional life, simlar to what A.D. did for Al, it would help him immensely. I'd take Thomas in a second.

Doddage
06-09-2008, 09:37 AM
Wouldn't have mattered. If they'd had 20 games of JO they would have made the playoffs.
Yup, or at least had a better record than what they ended up with. The circumstances would have been different, regardless.

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 09:38 AM
Dunleavy is not a 4 and he's not a 2 either, but plays there because of Granger. This would be if the Pacers acquired Hughes as I coul see him starting at the 2 and the Pacers going with a small lineup of Hinrich, Hughes, Granger, Dunleavy and Foster/Murphy that could run.

Dunleavy is just a basketball player. I think the debate about which position he should play gets a little too constricting as far as he's concerned. He's just simply effective when he's out there. He has never been more productive than he has been playing 2 for the Pacers. So whatever his size dictates, I think he has found a home as a bigger 2-guard.

Tom White
06-09-2008, 09:44 AM
Beyond speculating on the Chicago writer's idea, I think the title of this thread needs to be changed.

It isn't a rumor, just an idea that popped into the writer's head.

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 09:50 AM
i would love JO and Diogu for Hinrich/Hughes/Thomas....but they would never do it. They know just like everybody in the league knows JO is soft and injury prone. Then man can barely make it through half a season anymore. who would want him?

How is JO soft? Because he gets injured? Part of his proneness to injury is due to him coming back before properly healing, for the sake of the team. Injury prone? Yes. Soft? No.

naptownmenace
06-09-2008, 09:59 AM
This idea makes more sense than the ones from the Star.

I think Jermaine to Chicago Kirk Hinrich plus ? could work for both clubs. Although i'm not big on Tyrus Thomas.

Maybe something like Hinrich, Drew Gooden, and Aaron Gray for Jermaine.

Ditto!

I'd want Hinrich and Gooden in return. I have no interest in Ben Gordon, Thomas, or Hughes.

NuffSaid
06-09-2008, 10:23 AM
I like the players suggested, just not the make-up.

Huges, Hinrick, Gordon...too many Guards coming to a team with...too many Guards. Nearly everyone complained when JOB went with a small-ball lineup. Do you really want that again?

Also, IMO gaining Tyrus Thomas is no different than retaining Ike Diogu. You rid the team of a "financial burden" but you've gain nothing as far as veteran post-presence is concerned. If anything, I'd accept Luol Deng as part of the offer only because I know he's a fierce competitor who can play on both ends of the ball. So, unless either a) he's part of the deal, or b) a 3rd team is involved that would bring the veteran post-player in, I say no.

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 10:29 AM
I like the players suggested, just not the make-up.

Huges, Hinrick, Gordon...too many Guards coming to a team with...too many Guards. Nearly everyone complained when JOB went with a small-ball lineup. Do you really want that again?

Also, IMO gaining Tyrus Thomas is no different than retaining Ike Diogu. You rid the team of a "financial burden" but you've gain nothing as far as veteran post-presence is concerned. If anything, I'd accept Luol Deng as part of the offer only because I know he's a fierce competitor who can play on both ends of the ball. So, unless either a) he's part of the deal, or b) a 3rd team is involved that would bring the veteran post-player in, I say no.

When you think about it, though, we don't have all that many true guards. Flip will likely be gone, Rush will probably sign elsewhere, Owens will be gone, and Tinsley won't be back. That really only leaves us with Diener and Quis in the backcourt. Graham is more of a wing player, which we truly have a glut of.

pacergod2
06-09-2008, 10:42 AM
I would consider a deal including Hinrich, Gooden, and T. Thomas. No Hughes (contract), although I don't think he gets enough credit.

He looked awful in Cleveland because he and LeBron have similar styles for being effective. LeBron OBVIOUSLY dominated the ball and was the focus of the offense. LeBron's left hughes with mid range jumpers, which is NOT his specialty. he has become a much better jump shooter than in the past but he is a slasher type who draws and kicks well, and can finish at the rim. I think hughes looked terrific in chicago in the short time he was there. Defensively he is good. He is great at cutting off passing lanes, and is a decent on ball defender. I dont know that he is worth 12 million a year but he is not nearly as bad a player as he seemed in cleveland because of LeBron James. I also don't think LeBron makes everyone around him better.

Hicks
06-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Tyrus Thomas? Why not?

Red flags about his personality. I'm forgetting one of them off the top of my head (I want to say it had to do with conflicts with the coaches, but I may be wrong), but the other was the "I'm only here for the money" comments he made about an all-star game appearance (dunk contest?). Honest? Sure, but it also suggested a guy who could easily being looking out for numero uno before he looks out for his team, as well. That's not proof, but I do consider it a warning sign.


Beyond speculating on the Chicago writer's idea, I think the title of this thread needs to be changed.

It isn't a rumor, just an idea that popped into the writer's head.

Good idea. I'll change it.

I'd be fine getting Hinrich, Gooden, and maybe a future pick without Thomas involved.

wjs
06-09-2008, 11:07 AM
It seems to me, and others, that JO's value is related to the size of his contract as it slowly nears expiration in 2 years. The team with JO's expiring contract in 2 years is is prime position to bid for some great free agents.

Unless we get a great offer, we would be stupid to move him now.

That said, I think one team who should consider making us a great offer, now, is Cleveland. Having JO gives the Cavs their best shot at resigning Lebron, and keeps that contract away from the Nets and Knicks. And, if JO plays well for 2 years, that's a bonus.

I'd ask Cleveland for their #19, Delonte, Varejao, and Wally + whatever. I'd also ask them to take Tinsley.

If they say no, no problem. I'd then cycle through the others who want that contract in 2010. If no great offers, hang onto JO until the trade deadline, and see where thing stand. We need to be patient.

As to the Bulls, I like Hinrich and Thomas but they're not enough.

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 11:11 AM
JO should have been moved last summer when there was still shards of something decent in the mix. I don't expect we'll be able to command much from him going forward. First, there's the obvious physical maladies. If he's able to truly overcome those, I don't think that he'll ever reach his double-double level again. In fact, I think best case he's an accomplished shot blocker, slightly underachieving rebounder, and occasional post scorer.

However, my biggest rub with JO is that too many people on here give him the benefit of the doubt as to his intangible contribution to this team. He's never been an effective team leader, I have doubts as to how seriously he's ever taken off-season conditioning, he has since he signed the big contract been very focues on himself, him being the man on the team, him being an All-Star, him being the go to guy, and so forth. Finally, he's been floating hints that he doesn't want to be here for at least two years now.

I'll give you that he's fairly photogenic and tactful in interacting with the press and that he's kept his nose clean off the court. If you take the side that doesn't blame him for not wanting to go through the process and time it will take to build this group back up to a competitive team, I can understand it but it that still implies that he's not truly 100% in it moving forward.

A healthy JO on a true contending team might be worth more to his destination squad than what they will offer us. Still, on a contender he's maybe 3rd or 4th option on the team. Add that to his true market value and you see that some of the rumors and proposals (JO for Z, AV, 1st rd or JO for Hinrich, Thomas type combos) are really fairly good. As good as we could hope to get. I don't expect them to get significantly better if we hang on to JO b/c he'll be unhappy and frustrated with our team's development and he'll be battling his own health.


Great post!

Ragnar
06-09-2008, 11:13 AM
Dont they run this article every single year

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 11:22 AM
I like the players suggested, just not the make-up.

Huges, Hinrick, Gordon...too many Guards coming to a team with...too many Guards. Nearly everyone complained when JOB went with a small-ball lineup. Do you really want that again?

Also, IMO gaining Tyrus Thomas is no different than retaining Ike Diogu. You rid the team of a "financial burden" but you've gain nothing as far as veteran post-presence is concerned. If anything, I'd accept Luol Deng as part of the offer only because I know he's a fierce competitor who can play on both ends of the ball. So, unless either a) he's part of the deal, or b) a 3rd team is involved that would bring the veteran post-player in, I say no.

I agree with your statement about the guards, but I disagree about your statement concerning Thomas and Ike. Thomas isn't perfect, but he's head and shoulders above Ike both in size and as a player. Thomas will always be far the better player. JMOAA

NapTonius Monk
06-09-2008, 11:23 AM
It seems to me, and others, that JO's value is related to the size of his contract as it slowly nears expiration in 2 years. The team with JO's expiring contract in 2 years is is prime position to bid for some great free agents.

Unless we get a great offer, we would be stupid to move him now.

That said, I think one team who should consider making us a great offer, now, is Cleveland. Having JO gives the Cavs their best shot at resigning Lebron, and keeps that contract away from the Nets and Knicks. And, if JO plays well for 2 years, that's a bonus.

I'd ask Cleveland for their #19, Delonte, Varejao, and Wally + whatever. I'd also ask them to take Tinsley.

If they say no, no problem. I'd then cycle through the others who want that contract in 2010. If no great offers, hang onto JO until the trade deadline, and see where thing stand. We need to be patient.

As to the Bulls, I like Hinrich and Thomas but they're not enough.

His expiring contract next year will bring in better offers than what we're getting now. Hinrich has a long contract, and if we become unsettled with him, we'll have just as hard a time moving that deal as we're likely to have moving Tins. I don't doubt CHicago would move Hinrich and likely Nocioni as well. 5 year, double digit million dollar deals for less than star players. No thanks. Not for JO. I doubt we'll get a star back, but I'd be more in favor of the deal NJ had on the table. Jefferson or VC, Krstic, Marcus Williams, and VanHorn's expiring contract.

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 11:42 AM
it also suggested a guy who could easily being looking out for numero uno before he looks out for his team, as well.

I'd be fine getting Hinrich, Gooden, and maybe a future pick without Thomas involved.

When reading the 1st statement, it quickly reminded of another current Pacer who makes loads more than Thomas.

I like the idea of Hinrich and Gooden. I'd rather see Thabo instead of Thomas.

If I understand the CBA rules correctly on salary match, it should work. If it doesn't, would someone correct my error?

Rajah Brown
06-09-2008, 11:59 AM
wjs-

You used the key word, 'patience'. There's no hurry to trade
J.O. Even is he's a stiff next year, his contract only gets more
valuable as it's exp date draws closer.

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 12:05 PM
Everyone will be trying to steal JO this summer. Larry shouldn't trade him.

And wait to try and unload his expiring like DW is with Marbury 21mil expiring contract this summer?

Take a deal with Chicago if they want JO. They honestly have some players of value to offer!

Hinrich
Gooden

and any of the following

Thomas/Sefolosha/Gray/ or Nichols and Duhon in S&T's

I wouldn't get greedy looking for a pick, and if the 3rd player was deal buster I'd just take Hinrich and Gooden. That would put the Pacers 4mil more under the LT to be able to use their MLE this year. This is probably the best deal the Pacers are going to get.

Mourning
06-09-2008, 12:11 PM
IAlso, IMO gaining Tyrus Thomas is no different than retaining Ike Diogu. You rid the team of a "financial burden" but you've gain nothing as far as veteran post-presence is concerned. If anything, I'd accept Luol Deng as part of the offer only because I know he's a fierce competitor who can play on both ends of the ball.

Well I don't aggree at all about comparing Ike and Thomas here. I think Thomas is allready better and has a way, way better ceiling. He's still very young lest we forget.

And there's no way in HELL we get Deng unless maybe, maybe we add Danny to the package and they add crap to theirs. I don't see them trading Luol unless we are talking about a legitimate all-star player coming back to the Bulls.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Naptown_Seth
06-09-2008, 12:37 PM
Dont they run this article every single year
Smith does, but typically it's been outright insulting to the Pacers.

In this case the Pacers do seem focused on moving JO, if for no other reason than the Bird/JO relationship. The Bulls have an interest and a need to shake things up. If they take Rose then they definitely want to move Hinrich.

So Hinrich, Thomas, next year's first (protected in top 10) and probably you have to take Hughes. They get JO, possibly Ike and you have to give up your 2nd this year maybe.

The fact is that a deal now means still taking some hits. That's the Hughes contract. It's not like the Bulls aren't seeing some big hits with JO's risky contract.

Why I like it for Indy - break JO's contract into 2 more moveable parts, get a better PG on the team, take a look at Thomas with only modest financial and years obligation, get a pick for next year as part of the continued rebuild.

You still have about $15m in expiring (09/10 same as JO) with Hughes/Thomas if you want to make a JO-like cap clearing trade to get that vet from a team on their own rebuild. Hinrich's apparently on a rare front-end deal which starts at the high end and drops to the low end which means that despite the length you are seeing sligh cap improvement.

Clearly you are still moving Tinsley and it will be on the cheap, something making this deal look like the Pacers cheated.

Hinrich-Diener
Dun - Hughes - Graham
Granger - Quis - Williams
Thomas - pick 11
Murphy - Foster

Gone - Tins, Ike, JO...Hulk, Owens, Flip, Rush

Even better would be to swap Gooden for Hughes, maybe let them keep Thomas (if they want to that is) and let that open you up to trade Foster for a chance at someone like Chalmers or Rush.

Certainly they aren't a terrible trade partner other than being in the same division.

Will Galen
06-09-2008, 01:45 PM
Even better would be to swap Gooden for Hughes, maybe let them keep Thomas (if they want to that is) and let that open you up to trade Foster for a chance at someone like Chalmers or Rush.


Who we would want from Chicago would depend a lot on who we got in the draft.

Hinrich and Gooden is about the only way I would do this trade at this point, especially if we get a young big man in the draft. With Gooden here for at least a year there would be no hurry in his development.

Hughes just creates different problems.

Tom White
06-09-2008, 02:14 PM
Why I like it for Indy - break JO's contract into 2 more moveable parts, get a better PG on the team, take a look at Thomas with only modest financial and years obligation, get a pick for next year as part of the continued rebuild.

You still have about $15m in expiring (09/10 same as JO) with Hughes/Thomas if you want to make a JO-like cap clearing trade to get that vet from a team on their own rebuild.

Those clamoring to hold on to O'Neal until he is an expiring contract should pay attention to the first part of Seth's post quoted above.

Breaking up that large contract into a couple smaller ones gives the team a heck of a lot more flexibility than they have now.

It allows more options in packaging one expiring contract with an additional player later on, in addition to the options for moving individual contracts/players.

grace
06-09-2008, 02:47 PM
For those of you who have suggested that Duhon should be involved in the trade I'm saying bad idea--unless you own a local club because trust me Chris will be there alot.

When all these Pacers/Bulls trades first started I never was really in favor of any of them, but now I've reached the point of why not trade one team's over-hyped/underachieving/bad contract players. At least it would shakes things up.

Bulls players

Shannon Brown: I honestly didn't even know he was on the team. Being a Michigan State fan I would say you can never go wrong with a player from State, but then I remembered Zach Randolph so in the immortal words of Roseanne Roseannadannna "Never mind."

JamesOn Curry: :dunno:

Luol Deng: I doubt the Pacers have anything that would make the Bulls trade him. Being mentioned as trade bait for Kobe messed with his head last year. I'm not sure what actually being traded to Indiana would do to him. OTOH if last years drama was just an aberration he's a great player and the Pacers would be lucky to get him (and the Bulls would be stupid to trade him).

Chris Duhon: If it weren't for his over sleeping/missing practice/poster boy for Eddie Murphy's song "Party All The Time" I'd say he'd definitely be worth trading for.

Drew Gooden: Anyone who came over from Cleveland I have no opinion on because I'd already given up on the Bulls and didn't watch any of their games.

Ben Gordon: I'd like to think the crap with his contract last year was just a one time thing, but I don't know. Maybe if he came here and got to start he'd be happy, but then again he appears to be a lot better off the bench then he does starting.

Aaron Gray: I think he has potential. I'd be shocked if Larry didn't try really hard to get him.

Kirk Hinrich: I have never seen why so many people think he's so great. I will say I've never gotten the feeling he's ever mailed in a game so he would be a good addition to the whole "the team may not be all that good, but at least they try" concept that seemed to come to life at the end of last season.

Larry Hughes: See Drew Gooden

Demetris Nichols: who?...see Drew Gooden

Joakim Noah: If you want to see Shade have a stroke by all means trade for him. Heck trade for him and Chris Duhon. The clubs in the city will probably pony up some ad dollars to replace the old ATA plane race "contest" with a "Which Pacer player makes it to Cloud 9 First" race. (The sad thing is the most cheering during the game would be the idiots in the stands thinking that their cheering actually influences the outcome of the race.) And lets not forget that Noah got suspended by the Bulls last year for arguing with a coach. The suspension grew worse when his teammates threw him under the bus and said they wanted him suspended longer. Now you can blame that on Ben Wallace for being...well, Ben Wallace, but right now whenever I think of Joakim Noah all I see is an ad for a Cheech and Chong movie.

Andres Nocioni: IMO the only player worth trading for which means he's more than likely not available. He's also starting to get a nasty habit of being injured.

Thabo Sefolosha: If Al Alberts was still the Pacers TV announcer I'd say trade for Thabo in a second because Al would have a ball saying his name. Two years ago I really liked Thabo. Last year I don't know what happened to him, but he wasn't very good. Maybe in a new town with new coaches he'd be better, but I don't know.

Cedric Simmons: See Drew Gooden

Tyrus Thomas: Do the Pacers have a big man coach? If Chuck Person does end up being the Bulls coach Tyrus might be better off staying in Chicago because I'm sure Chuck would get him to play the way he should...or he'd pawn him off on some unsuspecting team looking to unload their own disappointing players.

croz24
06-09-2008, 02:56 PM
it's quite interesting how most bulls fans want no part of giving thomas up for jo by himself, yet many on here view him as a throw in.

grace
06-09-2008, 03:00 PM
it's quite interesting how most bulls fans want no part of giving thomas up for jo by himself, yet many on here view him as a throw in.

That's probably because most Bulls fans don't want to remember they could have had LaMarcus Aldridge instead.

ABADays
06-09-2008, 03:55 PM
How much pining do you think JO is doing knowing talks were deep with the Lakers last off-season?

Anthem
06-09-2008, 05:04 PM
Those clamoring to hold on to O'Neal
Is anybody actually clamoring to keep O'Neal? Everybody seems to be saying they'd be happy to move him for a decent offer, but that there's not a "need" to move Jermaine like there is Tinsley. Jermaine has positive value... not a lot, maybe, but he's not a negative value player like Tinsley.

croz24
06-09-2008, 05:31 PM
That's probably because most Bulls fans don't want to remember they could have had LaMarcus Aldridge instead.

probably, but thomas is still young enough to become the better player.

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 05:36 PM
Is anybody actually clamoring to keep O'Neal?


You must be reading different PD threads and posts than I am! Not many are of the opinion to trade JO, but many want to keep him and his valuable contract.

Justin Tyme
06-09-2008, 05:59 PM
For those of you who have suggested that Duhon should be involved in the trade I'm saying bad idea--unless you own a local club because trust me Chris will be there alot.

When all these Pacers/Bulls trades first started I never was really in favor of any of them, but now I've reached the point of why not trade one team's over-hyped/underachieving/bad contract players. At least it would shakes things up.

Bulls players

Shannon Brown: I honestly didn't even know he was on the team. Being a Michigan State fan I would say you can never go wrong with a player from State, but then I remembered Zach Randolph so in the immortal words of Roseanne Roseannadannna "Never mind."

JamesOn Curry: :dunno:

Luol Deng: I doubt the Pacers have anything that would make the Bulls trade him. Being mentioned as trade bait for Kobe messed with his head last year. I'm not sure what actually being traded to Indiana would do to him. OTOH if last years drama was just an aberration he's a great player and the Pacers would be lucky to get him (and the Bulls would be stupid to trade him).

Chris Duhon: If it weren't for his over sleeping/missing practice/poster boy for Eddie Murphy's song "Party All The Time" I'd say he'd definitely be worth trading for.

Drew Gooden: Anyone who came over from Cleveland I have no opinion on because I'd already given up on the Bulls and didn't watch any of their games.

Ben Gordon: I'd like to think the crap with his contract last year was just a one time thing, but I don't know. Maybe if he came here and got to start he'd be happy, but then again he appears to be a lot better off the bench then he does starting.

Aaron Gray: I think he has potential. I'd be shocked if Larry didn't try really hard to get him.

Kirk Hinrich: I have never seen why so many people think he's so great. I will say I've never gotten the feeling he's ever mailed in a game so he would be a good addition to the whole "the team may not be all that good, but at least they try" concept that seemed to come to life at the end of last season.

Larry Hughes: See Drew Gooden

Demetris Nichols: who?...see Drew Gooden

Joakim Noah: If you want to see Shade have a stroke by all means trade for him. Heck trade for him and Chris Duhon. The clubs in the city will probably pony up some ad dollars to replace the old ATA plane race "contest" with a "Which Pacer player makes it to Cloud 9 First" race. (The sad thing is the most cheering during the game would be the idiots in the stands thinking that their cheering actually influences the outcome of the race.) And lets not forget that Noah got suspended by the Bulls last year for arguing with a coach. The suspension grew worse when his teammates threw him under the bus and said they wanted him suspended longer. Now you can blame that on Ben Wallace for being...well, Ben Wallace, but right now whenever I think of Joakim Noah all I see is an ad for a Cheech and Chong movie.

Andres Nocioni: IMO the only player worth trading for which means he's more than likely not available. He's also starting to get a nasty habit of being injured.

Thabo Sefolosha: If Al Alberts was still the Pacers TV announcer I'd say trade for Thabo in a second because Al would have a ball saying his name. Two years ago I really liked Thabo. Last year I don't know what happened to him, but he wasn't very good. Maybe in a new town with new coaches he'd be better, but I don't know.

Cedric Simmons: See Drew Gooden

Tyrus Thomas: Do the Pacers have a big man coach? If Chuck Person does end up being the Bulls coach Tyrus might be better off staying in Chicago because I'm sure Chuck would get him to play the way he should...or he'd pawn him off on some unsuspecting team looking to unload their own disappointing players.


Sefolosha caught my attention in the 06 draft. I was hoping the Pacers could/would draft him at 17, but the 76ers took him at 13. They then traded him to Chicago for Carney. Dumb move. I have kept my eye on Thabo ever since. He started out last season doing well, but once the Bulls made the trade he was put on the backburner for Hughes. Once this happened, his game suffered the rest of the season. I like Thabo and would like to see him in a Pacers uni. Until he or Hughes is traded, he won't flower into his own.

Demtrius Nichols I felt was a good pick for a 2nd rounder last year, but Bird picked Stanko instead. Portland chose him with the 53rd pick and later became part of the Randolph trade to the Knicks. Nichols was cut I believe and the Bulls picked him up. He's been with 3 teams now and hasn't done anything. IIRC, he was a shooter with good range in college.

BlueNGold
06-09-2008, 06:09 PM
How much pining do you think JO is doing knowing talks were deep with the Lakers last off-season?

Pining as painful yearning...or pining as in sit-butt-on-bench?

IMO, he would be doing the latter about now after losing to the Spurs...and Kobe would be demanding another trade. Gasol is the difference maker there and Kobe should be very, very thankful it was Pau rather than JO who came to town. Lamar Odom and friends looks pretty good right now...

YoSoyIndy
06-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Dunleavy's a Power Forward now? news to me.

I don't think we write him in full-time at the position, but he played it last year with Diener, Rush, Granger and Foster/Murphy (pick one).

YoSoyIndy
06-09-2008, 06:55 PM
wjs-

You used the key word, 'patience'. There's no hurry to trade
J.O. Even is he's a stiff next year, his contract only gets more
valuable as it's exp date draws closer.

This is the main reason why I'm OK w/ holding onto JO for now. I might regret it, but I don't think he'll get worse, and he will want to shift to "contract year" as we get closer to Summer 2010.

Anthem
06-09-2008, 07:08 PM
You must be reading different PD threads and posts than I am! Not many are of the opinion to trade JO, but many want to keep him and his valuable contract.
Nope, we're reading the same threads. You're just making the assumption that because people disagree with part of your posts that they disagree with the whole thing.

Do you not see the difference between "move JO at any cost" and "move JO for a deal to make us better?" I think most people see you as proposing the former rather than the latter.

Anthem
06-09-2008, 07:11 PM
I don't think we write him in full-time at the position, but he played it last year with Diener, Rush, Granger and Foster/Murphy (pick one).
I don't think so.

I don't remember a single game where Dun played PF. If he was on the floor with Granger, Danny played PF. If he was on the floor with Shawne, Shawne played it.

BlueNGold
06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
Let's hope Shawne has bulked up and can play the position. It would be a huge bonus. He has the length to handle it....and hopefully we see him develop this coming year. BTW, he would be a very tough matchup...

Anthem
06-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Let's hope Shawne has bulked up and can play the position. It would be a huge bonus. He has the length to handle it....and hopefully we see him develop this coming year. BTW, he would be a very tough matchup...
I still don't see the fascination with Shawne at PF. He can't post to save his life. That's ok for KG, but less so for lesser mortals.

BlueNGold
06-09-2008, 07:43 PM
I still don't see the fascination with Shawne at PF. He can't post to save his life. That's ok for KG, but less so for lesser mortals.

We would definitely need someone else to post up. What I see is a guy who can take the other PF out to the perimeter and hit threes. It opens the floor up. Imagine an Austin Croshere type player who can actually play some D.

Wage
06-09-2008, 07:55 PM
it's quite interesting how most bulls fans want no part of giving thomas up for jo by himself, yet many on here view him as a throw in.

I think Bulls fans feel about Thomas like we feel about Williams. Both raw, both have shown flashes, and both are guys that their respective fanbase just hope can live up to some of their potential.

And to Grace, I pretty much agree with your entire write up of the Bulls roster, however, I do like Thabo a bit more for some reason I can't truly explain.

grace
06-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I do like Thabo a bit more for some reason I can't truly explain.

I'm sure it's the accent.

Kegboy
06-09-2008, 09:55 PM
probably, but thomas is still young enough to become the better player.

He's sure got a lot of ground to make up.

croz24
06-09-2008, 10:01 PM
it's not like aldridge is some future great. he too has plenty of flaws and immaturity to overcome. i'd of course take aldridge 9 times out of 10, but thomas can become a josh smith type.

MillerTime
06-09-2008, 10:25 PM
This trade isnt that bad. The only concern I have with it is getting Hughes in return. Getting Hinrich is a definate bonus. I am a real big fan of Hinrich's. He has a good court leader and theres no issue with thim off court (which we've had a lot of recently). Thomas has a lot of upside. Hes young and only going to get better.

I'd rather have this deal changed to Hinrich + Nocioni + Thomas + Pick for JO. I'd take Nocioni over Hughes anyday. Nocioni is a guy that can play the SF or PF spot.

Hinrich
Granger
Dunleavy
Nocioni
Murphy

PR07
06-09-2008, 11:10 PM
Aldridge is far better than Thomas. Just look at the numbers. Either Roy or him should've been the #1 pick.

Thomas is nice, but I don't see him more than a solid starter at this level. His offensive game is too limited, and he's not overly tall or big. He is an excellent athlete and shotblocker though, and would probably excel in an uptempo system.

CableKC
06-09-2008, 11:27 PM
Aldridge is far better than Thomas. Just look at the numbers. Either Roy or him should've been the #1 pick.

Thomas is nice, but I don't see him more than a solid starter at this level. His offensive game is too limited, and he's not overly tall or big. He is an excellent athlete and shotblocker though, and would probably excel in an uptempo system.
Does Collins use a half-court ( at least slower ) offense?

If he does, I would think that Ike would fit in a "slow it down" offense where he can take the time to work whatever offensive magic he has.

But it would seem that Tyrus Thomas may be somewhat decent in an up-tempo offense. I'm guessing that his defense can't be any worse then Ike's defense.

Wage
06-10-2008, 12:07 AM
But it would seem that Tyrus Thomas may be somewhat decent in an up-tempo offense. I'm guessing that his defense can't be any worse then Ike's defense.

Honestly, it's about the same thing. His problem is that he has a low basketball IQ and makes a ton of mental mistakes, just like Ike. So, like Ike, he would probably hang out on the end of the bench all year for us, no matter what other skills he could offer.

eldubious
06-10-2008, 12:52 AM
I don't know why people think JO has great trade value or that his expiring contract will bring in big name free agents. The Pacers screwed up royally by not moving him last year. If they have a chance to redeem themselves and get Hinrich, then Bird may have saved his job. If the Bulls only offered Hinrich and Hughes, the Pacers should still take it, it is still better than Wally, Varejo, and a 1st. The next step for the Pacers would be to move Daniels and/or Tinsley at all cost, then acquiring Hughes's contract won't hurt as much.

Mourning
06-10-2008, 01:18 PM
I'd rather have this deal changed to Hinrich + Nocioni + Thomas + Pick for JO.

Ehhh... don't you think that is just a LITTLE one-sided and rather enormously unlikely to be acceptable for the Bulls? ;)

It's like offering Danny + Dun Dun + Jeff + Pick for Marbury :).

Naptown_Seth
06-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Aldridge is far better than Thomas. Just look at the numbers. Either Roy or him should've been the #1 pick.

Thomas is nice, but I don't see him more than a solid starter at this level. His offensive game is too limited, and he's not overly tall or big. He is an excellent athlete and shotblocker though, and would probably excel in an uptempo system.
I got to see Aldridge play up close and that kid is amazing. I'm really impressed with his game.


Does Collins use a half-court ( at least slower ) offense?
Moot point now since he won't coach the Bulls after all.

grace
06-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Ehhh... don't you think that is just a LITTLE one-sided and rather enormously unlikely to be acceptable for the Bulls? ;)

I do. Now way they're trading Nocioni.

Justin Tyme
06-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Nope, we're reading the same threads. You're just making the assumption that because people disagree with part of your posts that they disagree with the whole thing.

Do you not see the difference between "move JO at any cost" and "move JO for a deal to make us better?" I think most people see you as proposing the former rather than the latter.


We can agree to disagree on this.

Justin Tyme
06-10-2008, 01:48 PM
I'd rather have this deal changed to Hinrich + Nocioni + Thomas + Pick for JO. I'd take Nocioni over Hughes anyday. Nocioni is a guy that can play the SF or PF spot.

We are talking about JO not KG or Duncan, and definately not now in his career! Bird would be falling all over himself trying to get the pen on the dotted line and keeping a straight face while doing it.

Anthem
06-10-2008, 03:21 PM
We can agree to disagree on this.
What's there to disagree on? You think people DON'T see you as a "move JO at any cost" guy?

Will Galen
06-10-2008, 04:34 PM
We can agree to disagree on this.

You don't agree to disagree, I've always hated that silly saying! You disagree and move on.

Infinite MAN_force
06-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Anthem, I still don't see what the big hangup is on Hughes.

His contract is the same length as JO's. and as Seth pointed out, you are breaking JO's contract up into more easily moveable parts. I think Hughes expiring contract may actually have more trade potential than JO's albatross.

On court he brings a slasher and perimeter D. He is a better version of Marquis Daniels essentially, but he fills some needs for us, even if he is a very streaky shooter.

Those two things are a positive value of Hughes.

Getting Hinrich, a better PG than will be available to us in the draft, who fits well with Obrien, is well worth taking on hughes for IMO. Tyrus would be icing on the cake, but I would try to maybe turn him into a pick in a three team deal, maybe getting a late teens pick.

What teams picking between 19-12 might have an interest in a guy like Thomas? I would rather have a pick myself.

JO for Hinrich, Hughes, and Thomas I think is probably the best we can do for JO and makes us a lot better. Just having a solid PG who can defend and shoot will improve this team a lot. Than in a few seasons big expiring contracts like Hughes and Murphy can be packaged with young players (shawne williams perhaps) potentially bringing an all-star caliber player to put us back in contention. I don't think it is a bad plan.

Will Galen
06-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Anthem, I still don't see what the big hangup is on Hughes. Look at the contracts. Just Hinrich and Hughes would cost the Pacers $3m. Adding Thomas would make it almost $6m.

I don't know if you care or not, but the owners do, so we have to take contracts into consideration also.

Basically there's three things to look at in looking at trades. One, will it cost us money? If so it most likely isn't feasible.

Two, will the player pass a background check that will satisfy the Simons?

Three, will it make us better?

Notice where I put 'will the player make us better,' third.

Add to that, the trade has to satisfy the other team, and you can see most trades aren't going to pass muster.

Infinite MAN_force
06-10-2008, 11:20 PM
But it doesn't cost us any more money than keeping JO would. We break even. Our contract situation does not improve, but it does not get worse. Which is why I don't see how keeping JO is any better solution.

If they add Thomas we add Diogu, which also breaks even.

I think terms 2, 3, and 4 are all satisfied. A solid point guard certainly makes us better, no off court issues, and I think it is a trade chicago would consider.

It is because of requirement four that we have to take hughes in the first place. I think it is the only way it gets done realistically.

Infinite MAN_force
06-10-2008, 11:30 PM
I guess it does cost us about two million extra because next year Hinrich+Hughes = 23 mill and JO = 21.

Hell, the difference is barely more than David Harrison's contract, which just expired.

I don't see 2 million being a big holdup unless we are over the tax. Not to mention Hinrich goes down every year.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 12:10 AM
I

I don't see 2 million being a big holdup unless we are over the tax. Not to mention Hinrich goes down every year.

We won't know for sure until July 7th or so what the Lux. tax will be this coming season. However, we were almost on top of it last year and unless we make some trades that save money it looks like we will be over it this season, and Herb has already said they don't want to pay any tax.

That's why I keep saying JO for Hinrich and Gooden is about the only trade both teams would consider. It would save us about $4m.

pwee31
06-11-2008, 12:20 AM
We won't know for sure until July 7th or so what the Lux. tax will be this coming season. However, we were almost on top of it last year and unless we make some trades that save money it looks like we will be over it this season, and Herb has already said they don't want to pay any tax.

That's why I keep saying JO for Hinrich and Gooden is about the only trade both teams would consider. It would save us about $4m.

Thank You! this is what I've been saying ever since I heard Hinrich was available!

I posted it in the trade proposal section, but I guess not many people read those

Taterhead
06-11-2008, 12:46 AM
I guess it does cost us about two million extra because next year Hinrich+Hughes = 23 mill and JO = 21.

Hell, the difference is barely more than David Harrison's contract, which just expired.

I don't see 2 million being a big holdup unless we are over the tax. Not to mention Hinrich goes down every year.

As I tried to post another thread about, there is a 20 million dollar difference in total commitments on our end in this trade. I not only provides us with no relief over the next few years (which is what I thought we wanted), it takes all of our cap space for 2010/2011 when things finally start to clear up.

Other issues with this deal are:

1) Hinrich is overpaid, as is Hughes. So we essentially add 2 more overpaid players to an already overpaid majority on this team. Hinrich averaged 12 PPG and 6 APG last year at an 11 million dollar salary.

2) Even if they included Tyrus Thomas we would have zero chance of keeping him. No way we can resign Danny and Tyrus with 52 million owed to the group of Murphy, Hinrich, Dunleavy, Hughes and Tinsley.

3) There is no way we complete any kind of trade to dump Hughes, Tinsley, or Murphys' contracts to clear any space before next season. If we are lucky enough to deal them, it will be for equally bad deals, or even worse ones. The only way Hughes expiring deal is worth anything, is if it clears space for the other team. And that will entail dealing him at the deadline the season after next, and taking on longer term contracts of better players in return.

4) This trade accomplishes the complete opposite of what we are going for. We get no cap relief, no draft picks, no young players with any potential to speak of, and no stars. Hinrich has had some descent years, but nothing even close to spectacular.

5) Chicago has had Hinrich 4 years, and he's still a young player. Isn't anyone else concerned that they are already giving up on him? I mean, they are passing on Beasley who has superstar potential, to draft Rose (it looks like), despite the fact thier biggest need is a PF with an interior presence. It seems to me they are admitting they made a mistake giving Hinrich this deal and want out. I think it should be a Tinsley, Diogu for Hinrich deal or a big no thanks.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 08:10 AM
5) Chicago has had Hinrich 4 years, and he's still a young player. Isn't anyone else concerned that they are already giving up on him? I mean, they are passing on Beasley who has superstar potential, to draft Rose (it looks like), despite the fact thier biggest need is a PF with an interior presence. It seems to me they are admitting they made a mistake giving Hinrich this deal and want out. I think it should be a Tinsley, Diogu for Hinrich deal or a big no thanks.

I think the rumors are telling us more about Rose and Beasley than about Hinrich. Everyone thinks Rose is in C. Paul and D.William's class. As for Beasley, he isn't coming across as someone you want to pay millions of dollars to. If you haven't been paying attention Miami isn't so hot on Beasley either.

Hinrich is probably the best point guard we could wind up with this summer unless someone we pick up in the draft surprises.

Justin Tyme
06-11-2008, 08:28 AM
I think the rumors are telling us more about Rose and Beasley than about Hinrich. Everyone thinks Rose is in C. Paul and D.William's class. As for Beasley, he isn't coming across as someone you want to pay millions of dollars to. If you haven't been paying attention Miami isn't so hot on Beasley either.

Hinrich is probably the best point guard we could wind up with this summer unless someone we pick up in the draft surprises.


I keep getting the feeling Mayo will be Miami's pick if Chicago picks Rose. From what I keep reading, Riley isn't a fan of Beasley, unless this is a smoke screen in order for Chicago to not pick Beasley.

I said in an earlier post I though Hinrich and Gooden was a good trade, and if trying to get a 3rd player was a deal buster drop the demand.

Taterhead
06-11-2008, 07:42 PM
I think the rumors are telling us more about Rose and Beasley than about Hinrich. Everyone thinks Rose is in C. Paul and D.William's class. As for Beasley, he isn't coming across as someone you want to pay millions of dollars to. If you haven't been paying attention Miami isn't so hot on Beasley either.

Hinrich is probably the best point guard we could wind up with this summer unless someone we pick up in the draft surprises.

Why does anyone here think Hinrich is that good? Look at his numbers last year, they are borderline atrocious. And he is a good defender but not a great one by any stretch. 40 million is a big gamble, and even if he is the best we can get, it doesn't mean it's wise to get him. I say if he's the best we can do, look for big men and deal with the PG later. It's not like we are going anywhere next year anyways. To take on that kind of deal for a PG who makes that kind of money and isn't even in the top half in the league at his position is unbelievable and suicide. And to help a division rival in the process is just silly.

As far as Beasley, I seriously doubt Miami is going to pass on Beasley to take Mayo. Mayo has loads of potential, but I seriously doubt he would mesh real well with Wade. He has no meaningful experience playing the point and Wade doesn't either, and the 2nd pick is way too high to take a gamble like that. Beasley was dominant in college last year as a freshman, there is no reason to feel apprehensive about picking him, unless you are concerned about his height which is not that important IMO. He has a great offensive game and rebounds very well. It has got to be a smokescreen to keep Chicago from thinking about taking him and leveraging a trade, IMO.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 08:43 PM
I keep getting the feeling Mayo will be Miami's pick if Chicago picks Rose. From what I keep reading, Riley isn't a fan of Beasley, unless this is a smoke screen in order for Chicago to not pick Beasley.

I'm not following you here. A smokescreen is to prevent someone from knowing what you are doing or thinking. However, in this case Chicago has the first pick so they aren't going to care what Miami does.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Why does anyone here think Hinrich is that good? Look at his numbers last year, they are borderline atrocious. And he is a good defender but not a great one by any stretch.

Chicago had to many distractions last year, the whole team went bad. So I would say most of us who like Hinrich think last year wasn't indicative of what Hinrich can do.

owl
06-11-2008, 09:06 PM
Why does anyone here think Hinrich is that good? Look at his numbers last year, they are borderline atrocious. And he is a good defender but not a great one by any stretch. 40 million is a big gamble, and even if he is the best we can get, it doesn't mean it's wise to get him. I say if he's the best we can do, look for big men and deal with the PG later. It's not like we are going anywhere next year anyways. To take on that kind of deal for a PG who makes that kind of money and isn't even in the top half in the league at his position is unbelievable and suicide. And to help a division rival in the process is just silly.



This a very true. TPTB better be very confident last year was a fluke because if
that is what you are getting I would forget this trade.
There will be a good player at 11 and then pick up another late first rounder.

Rajah Brown
06-11-2008, 10:06 PM
If (big if) Riley drafts Mayo, it'll be after trading down a bit, not at
#2.

Justin Tyme
06-12-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm not following you here. A smokescreen is to prevent someone from knowing what you are doing or thinking. However, in this case Chicago has the first pick so they aren't going to care what Miami does.



Planting the seeds of doubt in Chicago's mind as to possible probems and if he truly is worth the #1 pick. Discouraging Chicago to not pick him, so they can draft him. Miami has to look like they aren't interested in for his possible problems. Thus a smoke screen. JMOAA

Justin Tyme
06-12-2008, 07:50 AM
If (big if) Riley drafts Mayo, it'll be after trading down a bit, not at #2.

How far down would Riley trade, with what team, and for what in return?

Rajah Brown
06-12-2008, 09:03 AM
JT-

You got me. Not very far I'd guess. If he wants Mayo, he may just
grab him at #2. But he's certainly savvy enough to know to try and
switch spots with someone else between #3 and #5 who covets
Beasley before doing so.

Tom White
06-12-2008, 09:33 AM
Look at the contracts. Just Hinrich and Hughes would cost the Pacers $3m. Adding Thomas would make it almost $6m.

I don't know if you care or not, but the owners do, so we have to take contracts into consideration also.

Basically there's three things to look at in looking at trades. One, will it cost us money? If so it most likely isn't feasible.



Will, let me just add this to your post.

If the owners perceive that the trade will increase the revenue side (more accurately, the net income side) of the ledger more than the expense side, it negates the worry about the increase in contracts.

Naptown_Seth
06-12-2008, 03:50 PM
One thing to consider on Hinrich - Team USA hangover last year? We've seen Pacers take on that extra summer load and show it when they got into the NBA season.

grace
06-12-2008, 03:56 PM
One thing to consider on Hinrich - Team USA hangover last year?

That's probably part of it. The other part is he's just not as good as some people think.

Rajah Brown
06-12-2008, 04:13 PM
I'm not a huge Hinrich fan, but those running him down are
overstating his mediocrity. It was a soap opera all year long
up in CHIC with Deng and Gordon sulking about not getting
extension offers they deemed sufficient, the team souring
on and tuning out Skiles, the Skiles firing, the mid-season
trade with CLE, etc.

Hinrich obviously regressed statistically and he's not a pure
PG. But he's pretty soild and while a bit overpaid, his annual
salary (uniquely in the NBA ?) actually goes down each year.
He's probably a $7-8mil a year value and that's about where
his contract ends up in the final year.

Anthem
06-12-2008, 04:24 PM
One thing to consider on Hinrich - Team USA hangover last year? We've seen Pacers take on that extra summer load and show it when they got into the NBA season.
So we acquire him on the condition that he has to give up his TeamUSA spot? Works for me.

Smoothdave1
06-15-2008, 10:44 AM
BTW, in case anyone questions whether or not JO thinks he will be here, I saw this morning that he has sold his interest iin the former Seven nightclub in Broad Ripple, which is being renamed and done as a country western bar.

Hicks
06-15-2008, 11:53 AM
It'd be funnier if JO was the one keeping it to make it INTO a country western bar. :D

Tom White
06-15-2008, 01:58 PM
BTW, in case anyone questions whether or not JO thinks he will be here, I saw this morning that he has sold his interest iin the former Seven nightclub in Broad Ripple, which is being renamed and done as a country western bar.

I thought that happened last summer.

imawhat
06-15-2008, 02:04 PM
That's probably part of it. The other part is he's just not as good as some people think.


I completely agree, and I think it's interesting that he has so much hype.


Seriously, Travis Diener is not that far from being at Kirk's level. I think we saw a lot of improvement from Travis in the last 1/3 of the year, all while on a bum ankle. Why blow the salary on someone with a very similar (but only slightly better) skillset like Kirk? It'd be like getting Mike Miller to back up or start with Dunleavy.

If you're spending that kind of money, get someone that fills a need, if not multiple needs.

CableKC
06-15-2008, 03:49 PM
I completely agree, and I think it's interesting that he has so much hype.


Seriously, Travis Diener is not that far from being at Kirk's level. I think we saw a lot of improvement from Travis in the last 1/3 of the year, all while on a bum ankle. Why blow the salary on someone with a very similar (but only slightly better) skillset like Kirk? It'd be like getting Mike Miller to back up or start with Dunleavy.

If you're spending that kind of money, get someone that fills a need, if not multiple needs.
Although Diener has significantly improved over the last season, I'm not sure if his skillset is only "slightly better" then Hinrich's.....but I will have to differ to Grace on whether Hinrich and Diener have similiar games.

Isn't Hinrich actually a decent defender at the Guard position? I still have nightmares of Hinrich continually posting up Diener in that Bulls/Pacers game.

I still think that Hinrich is the type of Combo-Guard that JO'B and Bird likes to have running the point......they both like scoring Guards that has the handles to run an offense while not being a scoring and complete defensive liability on the floor and. To me...this explains the flirtation of signing Flip Murray.....a SG that has never been known as a PG that we relied upon to handle a good # of minutes as our PG....and JO'Bs comments about having Marquis running the point earlier in the season.

imawhat
06-15-2008, 04:20 PM
As an addition to the previous post.

Kirk Hinrich vs. Travis Diener per 36 min stats

2007-2008
Diener: 12.1 pts, 6.7 ast, 1.5 to, 3.1 rb, 37% FG
Hinrich: 13.0 pts, 6.8 ast, 2.4 to, 3.7 rb, 41.5% FG

Feb 27-end of season:
Diener:10.67 pts, 7.5 ast, 1.1 to, 3.1 rb, 38% FG
Hinrich: 10.77 pts, 7.4 ast, 2.0 to, 3.4 rb, 42% FG


I'm unsure of Hinrich's health, but Diener's end of season numbers are comparable to Kirk's, on one good leg.

imawhat
06-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Although Diener has significantly improved over the last season, I'm not sure if his skillset is only "slightly better" then Hinrich's.....but I will have to differ to Grace on whether Hinrich and Diener have similiar games.

Isn't Hinrich actually a decent defender at the Guard position? I still have nightmares of Hinrich continually posting up Diener in that Bulls/Pacers game.


I think Hinrich's skillset is only slightly better than Diener's, but I honestly believe Diener has a higher ceiling. I think Diener is one fundamental mechanic away from having a much higher FG%, much like Dunleavy was two years ago (same shooting problem too). And when Diener's numbers go up (they will), his points and assists will follow as his "threat" level will exponentially increase (as he also became more willing to go for a shot while driving to the hoop as the season went on).


As far as defense goes, I think Hinrich is only marginally better. He's a better on the ball defender, and has better size, but I don't think he's as diligent as Diener on defense.

I'm just surprised that everyone's dying to have Hinrich when we already have someone that (I believe) will surpass Hinrich on our roster and has a salary that's 7 1/2 times lower.

I would much rather have Gordon (who makes *edit* 6/10ths of Hinrich's salary), or Thabo, etc.

Will Galen
06-15-2008, 05:16 PM
I would much rather have Gordon (who makes less than 1/2 of Hinrich's salary) etc.

That was last year. Gordon is in line for a raise.

grace
06-15-2008, 08:53 PM
I will have to differ to Grace on whether Hinrich and Diener have similiar games.

Don't ask me. I don't watch the Pacers so I have no idea what Diener can do.


Isn't Hinrich actually a decent defender at the Guard position? I still have nightmares of Hinrich continually posting up Diener in that Bulls/Pacers game.

I suppose he's decent. He certainly gets in enough foul trouble to lead me to believe he at least tries to play defense. As for nightmares watching that game in December certainly gave me nightmares. God the Bulls S U C K E D !!!