PDA

View Full Version : Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing



Unclebuck
06-08-2008, 09:06 AM
I think all 5 of these are very interesting.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080608/SPORTS04/806080410/1088/SPORTS04&template=printart


Analyzing the trade market

Nothing says summer like NBA trade rumors, so as long as the Pacers are talking

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

Let the trade talk begin.

NBA front office officials are deep into their draft preparations, but they're never too busy to explore trade scenarios that might improve their teams.

Larry Bird likely is involved in several such conversations. The Pacers president has the daunting challenge of trying to fix a team that has missed the past two playoffs but lacks cap space to significantly improve through free agency. He's relying on the draft and potential trades to climb back into playoff contention.

It's no secret trading Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley top the Pacers' wish list. The problem, however, is teams aren't calling Bird on a daily basis trying to swing a deal for either player, particularly Tinsley.

But that won't stop the rumors and Internet chatter this summer.

So tune out the noise and consider five potential trades that make sense:

1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: O'Neal had his best season in 2003-04 playing for Rick Carlisle, now the Mavericks coach, and Dallas needs a low-post scorer. The early results on the Kidd experiment in Dallas weren't positive, but his addition not only would solve the Pacers' point guard problem immediately, it also would allow the 35-year-old to mentor their first-round pick, if they decide to go that route. Kidd will make $21.4 million in the final year of his contract.

2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: The Pacers were atrocious at stopping dribble penetration last season. Lowry solves that. He's the tough, defensive-minded point guard the Pacers need to shore up the position. The Grizzlies have a surplus of young point guards in Lowry, Mike Conley Jr. and Javaris Crittenton and are trying to figure out what to do. The Pacers have a surplus of wing players and could part with Williams, who is from Memphis and starred there in college.

3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: Hinrich's future in Chicago is cloudy, particularly if the Bulls select Derrick Rose in the draft. Hinrich has defensive issues but has averaged 6.4 assists and shoots 41 percent. Diogu never worked his way into the rotation after tearing his left calf early in the season.

4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: All-Stars Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson need a sidekick in Denver who can score in the low post. Camby will block shots and rebound -- 13.3 a game last season. Martin's injury problems -- he played only two games in the 2006-07 season -- and his contract -- three more years with a player option on the third year -- could worry the Pacers.

5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe. The Pacers have admitted they lost their toughness when they traded Artest in 2006. O'Neal said then he no longer could play with Artest, but that wouldn't be an issue in this deal. The self-proclaimed Tru Warier should be on his best behavior next season because he'll be in the final year of his contract, and he's yet to land a major new deal. He can start at power forward. Miller, also a former Pacer, is used to playing in a pass-oriented offensive system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

D-BONE
06-08-2008, 09:22 AM
I think all of them would be good trades as stand alone. The Sactown one is obviously absurd I think just based on previously burned bridges and the whole off-court environment currently.

All the rest could be good in certain contexts. The Kidd one seems fraught with conditions. Will Dallas have enough PG depth left and/or be willing to acquire more? Would Kidd be content playing on a likely borderline playoff team at best? If we draft a point, he would serve the mentor role well though.

I think I like the Memphis one best. Lowry is an experienced yet young, hard-nosed, defensive minded PG. He's a guy I'm extremely interested in. Heck, if you could really swing the Chicago move, bring in both Lowry and Hinrich to strengthen the guard rotation, then look big in the draft.

Camby would be a nice addition to our team defensively. However, he's got his own injury reputation. More importantly, Kenyon Martin is a tough pill to swallow.

himikey
06-08-2008, 09:28 AM
1 and 5 I wouldn't agree to. #1 makes sense if only to get JOs contract off the books a year earlier. But Kidd looked old after his trade to Dallas, and his numbers at this point aren't much better than Tinsleys. As for #5...remember the reaction John Starks got when he was traded to the Bulls? :)

BlueNGold
06-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Each of those deals, particularly #5 would be good. I am certain it would be difficult for the Simons to stomach #5, however.

Edit: On second thought, I don't think I could stomach it either...even though I love Artest's game. Ok, maybe #1 or #3 is a perfect trade, then we draft Westbrook to see if he can follow up at PG.

Jim R
06-08-2008, 10:00 AM
I think all 5 of these are very interesting.

1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: O'Neal had his best season in 2003-04 playing for Rick Carlisle, now the Mavericks coach, and Dallas needs a low-post scorer. The early results on the Kidd experiment in Dallas weren't positive, but his addition not only would solve the Pacers' point guard problem immediately, it also would allow the 35-year-old to mentor their first-round pick, if they decide to go that route. Kidd will make $21.4 million in the final year of his contract.

I don't like this one. Outside of rookie contracts, which are restricted, there aren't many good free agents out there. O'Neal's contract expires in 2010, and he might have his highest value after a strong, healthy year with an expiring contract.


2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: The Pacers were atrocious at stopping dribble penetration last season. Lowry solves that. He's the tough, defensive-minded point guard the Pacers need to shore up the position. The Grizzlies have a surplus of young point guards in Lowry, Mike Conley Jr. and Javaris Crittenton and are trying to figure out what to do. The Pacers have a surplus of wing players and could part with Williams, who is from Memphis and starred there in college.

I like this deal on paper, but I'd rather have DJ Augustine and Shawne Williams. Also, I don't see Memphis taking this deal because it seems whenever Williams is linked to trouble it's with someone from the city of Memphis.

With Rudy Gay, Mike Miller and the in and out Hakim Warrick, they have enough SF-types.


3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: Hinrich's future in Chicago is cloudy, particularly if the Bulls select Derrick Rose in the draft. Hinrich has defensive issues but has averaged 6.4 assists and shoots 41 percent. Diogu never worked his way into the rotation after tearing his left calf early in the season.

I can't see Chicago doing this. No way. Daniels and Diogu have little value at this point, and I'm betting there are a number of teams who see Hinrich as a good system away from being really good again after a bad year.


4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: All-Stars Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson need a sidekick in Denver who can score in the low post. Camby will block shots and rebound -- 13.3 a game last season. Martin's injury problems -- he played only two games in the 2006-07 season -- and his contract -- three more years with a player option on the third year -- could worry the Pacers.

No. Trading O'Neal would seem to me to be about cap relief or talent acquisition. This doesn't accomplish that.


5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe. The Pacers have admitted they lost their toughness when they traded Artest in 2006. O'Neal said then he no longer could play with Artest, but that wouldn't be an issue in this deal. The self-proclaimed Tru Warier should be on his best behavior next season because he'll be in the final year of his contract, and he's yet to land a major new deal. He can start at power forward. Miller, also a former Pacer, is used to playing in a pass-oriented offensive system.

I was never in favor of trading Artest to begin with. He had done very little wrong off the court, aside from being with that psycho chick who terrorized her neighborhood as well as him. I'm of the opinion had they dealt Jackson to begin with and dealt Tinsley when his value was at its highest--the off-season after the brawl--Artest would be having a great career alongside O'Neal.

jeffg-body
06-08-2008, 10:10 AM
Some of these ideas are pretty good for both teams, which will need to be the issue. #5 really intrigues me, but could the Simons have the kahoonas to pull the trigger on an Artest reunion?

Erik
06-08-2008, 10:24 AM
I love #3, and find #5 very interesting.

Mourning
06-08-2008, 10:29 AM
The only one I might see as viable is trade number two and it's not even THAT much viable as Memphis does have some nice wing players aswell.

1. I don't see Dallas trading Kidd this fast and def. not for an often injured PF with an absurd salary oh whose going to play PG in Dallas? And don't tell me Terry is.

3. Chicago would be NUTS to do that one. The only reason could be salary reasons, but they could get MUCH better value then this deal. Including a future first rounder on top is what they would probably ask I would guess.

4. I don't see Denver doing it. They give up Camby who has played a decent amount of games the last couple of years, rebounds very well and doesn't take much balls away from Anthony and Iverson. Martin is a problem child, but he gives them a little depth in the frontcourt, which they for the rest lack and he can defend aswell.

5. NO!!! I'm ok with making a deal for Brad, but I want NO part of (Mo)Ron EVER again on the Pacers. IF that were to happen I would resign as a Pacers fan.

So, Brad and something nice along side him for JO is ok, the Kings would very likely have another deal in place to send Ron somewhere else, because Ron and JO on one team is a definite no-no.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 10:30 AM
Are we supposed to take this seriously? Was this supposed to run on April Fools Day and got lost on the way to the press?

Shawne for Lowry is the only option I see any chance of happening. Even that's pretty remote, since half the league is trying to get Lowry.

[edit] IOW, what Mourning said.

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 10:34 AM
#5 really intrigues me, but could the Simons have the kahoonas to pull the trigger on an Artest reunion?

If Ron came back to Conseco, the only time our attendance would be more than 10,000 is when Portland came to town.

BlueNGold
06-08-2008, 10:34 AM
I love #3, and find #5 very interesting.

Why not both #3 and #5? Throw in other assets (e.g. Dunleavy) to make it work. We could have the following lineup:

PG: Hinrich
SG: Granger
SF: Williams
PF: Artest
C: Miller

Edit: Someone help me! I'm becoming irrational because I have always loved Artest's game and thought JO was soft, overrated, among other things. Also, I want Miller back in Indy...

Hicks
06-08-2008, 10:56 AM
I like 1 & 2, love 3, would cringe at 4, and would kill a man at 5.

Yes, that's right. I would be so opposed to getting Artest back that even bringing ol' Bradly with him wouldn't make me feel better. I would consider ending my season tickets.

edc
06-08-2008, 11:05 AM
I will be extremely happy if Ron Artest comes back to Indiana....

He is my favorite player....

Speed
06-08-2008, 12:13 PM
Are we supposed to take this seriously? Was this supposed to run on April Fools Day and got lost on the way to the press?

Shawne for Lowry is the only option I see any chance of happening. Even that's pretty remote, since half the league is trying to get Lowry.

[edit] IOW, what Mourning said.

ditto, exaclty.

Justin Tyme
06-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I'd like to select door #2. I'd be extremely pleased!

Roaming Gnome
06-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I guess there is no way that I can be convinced as a fan that having Ron Artest on the Pacers could be a positive with the team or the fans. Ron has proven time and time again to me that he has an extreme amount of talent, but he is mentally weak and is the most selfish player I've ever seen play in the NBA.

Bringing Ron back is something that I believe would destroy what is left of the fan base and is something that would not be tolerated by many that actually buy the tickets.

31andonly
06-08-2008, 12:44 PM
I absolutely can't understand why some of you are ok with the #5 deal.

Artest was the one who started the dumbest and ugliest brawl of the history of the NBA and he caused that a quality franchise turned to become the black sheep of the league. He had one of the best teams around him and all he then wanted was offensive freedom.

After the brawl, Artest got all the support from you, from me, from the team and from the organization and he responded with a trade demand!

No way in hell would I want to see him back in a Pacer uniform!

BTW: I really don't think either Morway or Bird have something like that in mind, this comes straight out of the author's fantasie. It just shocks me to see that some of you would do this.. :-o

Coming back to the various trade possibilities, to be honest, I like none of these trades...nothing would really help this team!

I agree with everything JimR has said!

jcouts
06-08-2008, 12:52 PM
I honestly like any of them as long as they don't hurt us any more in the cap situation. At this point, you get no worse in the NBA than not making the playoffs, whether it's by 1 game or 15 games. This team isn't going anywhere with Jermaine O'Neal as its leader. The team needs a shake-up, even if it's not the best sounding one. Donnie shook the team up when he acquired Ron, Brad and Mercer with the midseason trade, and that was the shake-up the team needed. This team needs a change.

I guess the question is, is it better to stay put, knowing you're not going to contend, or make a gamble on a shake-up, hoping it will provide what you might need to contend?

PaceBalls
06-08-2008, 01:01 PM
Wells is trolling for us lol... But I would like to add my 2cents to the Artest to Indy thing.

I really loved Ron's game, in fact he was near the top of my list of all time favorite players. He may have slowed down a bit, but the talent he has is undeniable even today.

However, this guy is completely unreliable. You really never know when he is gonna change his mind about anything. TPTB could have all the assurances in the world from Ron, and he might just decide, come January after a tough practice and Jim Ob gettin on his case, that he would rather just retire from basketball. He would totally do something like that. I think that would be in the back of everyones mind too, especially if we aren't winning alot.
It is just too risky. And ron is just too much of an unknown variable.

The rest of those trades seem pretty unrealistic besides the Swilliams one. He has us shipping off our duds for quality players... That isnt how trades work in reality.

I think MDJr is the guy we need to try to move. Though there might not be as much of a market for him right now as everyone seems to think.

PaceBalls
06-08-2008, 01:07 PM
A moment of nostalgia hit me thinking about Ron totally pwnin Lebron James his rookie year. Ahh I miss that 03-04 team.

YoSoyIndy
06-08-2008, 01:33 PM
Excluding everything non-basketball related, Artest isn't a good team basketball player. He breaks the offensive play by ball-hogging, gets too many poorly-timed fouls and can't be trusted in big games (04 Pistons series).

At one point, he probably could have beat any player one-on-one. I've always respected his love for the game. He's just always going against his role on a team.

And besides all that, how could we get him back for everything he did to disrupt the team?

Anthem
06-08-2008, 01:35 PM
Wow. Really, Mr. Wells? These are the kind of trades Larry is probably looking at? How about getting a single quote from TPTB about what they're trying to accomplish this summer? Because this is all crap out of your head. Sam Smith you're not.

Can we just have Montieth back? Short version is I'm with Mourning and Kegboy, but for the record:

1. Bad trade for both teams. Rick just got there and likes Kidd; they won't be moving him this summer.
2. Sure, we'd do this. But Memphis wouldn't even think about it. Maybe we could trade Ike for M.Redd while we're at it.
3. Quis and Ike for Captian Kirk? I'd hit it. I doubt Chicago would, but it would probably improve both teams. Only problem is that Chicago can probably get more for Hinrich. It's a worthwhile proposal, though.
4. Gag me. Kenyon would break in half the moment he got to Indy.
5. That wasn't a flinch, it was an attempt not to reach through the computer screen and throttle Mike Wells.

imawhat
06-08-2008, 01:37 PM
1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: I don't think this is the greatest deal, but we would be getting a quality player in return. I just think it leaves more issues than it solves. We "sort-of" temporarily solve the PG problem by putting a big dent in our post.

2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: I'm obviously against this for several reasons. One, I'm not ready to give up on Shawne. He's still low risk, so let's see if he can mature. If he does, it's a huge payoff; way more than we'll get from Lowry. Also, getting a defensive-minded 3rd stringer does not solve any glaring need. Otherwise, we'd keep Andre Owens or re-sign Orien Greene. Lowry is only slightly better than those players.

3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: PLEASE, NO. Hinrich might be the most overrated guard in the league. We wouldn't be losing a lot of needs, but this only slightly improves our PG situation. If this is what we want, it's much more valuable to let Diener develop. Travis showed plenty of improvement last year, and I have no doubt that he can reach Hinrich level, or maybe higher, in the right situation. If we're trading Diogu and Daniels, trade them for someone like Chucky Atkins (not even sure if that works) or someone who could provide a good veteran presence while being able to contribute at both ends.

4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: This deal makes the most sense to me. We don't lose any defense, may actually gain, all while adding front court depth. I think Kenyon is a guy that needs to be motivated by the right coach. It worked with Byron Scott, who is no-nonsense. Doesn't work with Karl, but more likely to work with O'Brien. When playing well, Martin always outplayed O'Neal. But that's only when he was playing well.

5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: If there was no history, this might be a no-brainer. But because of the history, it is a different type of no-brainer. I would love this deal, and I think people would eventually get over the past with Artest, at least until the next incident. On principle, I can't see us taking back the player who single-handedly started the downturn of this franchise on two separate occasions.



As much as I hate O'Neal, I just don't see the value in trading him. He's our best player, and he's off the books in two years. And when he is, we'll want to be good enough to attract free agents with our extra money.

The only way I see any of the deals above working is if future 1st picks (plural) are given to us without us losing any. Best case scenario: Trading O'Neal to a team that finishes with worst record in years of draft picks, plus decent players that can contribute and give Indiana a chance to win....not too much to ask for.

pwee31
06-08-2008, 01:44 PM
the 1st and 3rd I would do in a heartbeat, even the Kidd deal. I think Kidd can still play in the East. He can rebound, dish dimes, and simply run a team.
You can still draft a PG for the future, or you could draft a young big and look for a PG down the road.

Of course Quis and Ike for Hinrich is a no brainer, but the Bulls would NEVER do that

I guess the Shawne for Lowry would be interesting, but I haven't seen enough of Lowry to form an opinion

Trader Joe
06-08-2008, 01:47 PM
I would do the Denver deal I think if we could get their number 1 pick as well.

croz24
06-08-2008, 01:47 PM
how does wells still hold a job?

PR07
06-08-2008, 01:57 PM
#3 is a steal for us, but I doubt Chicago does it. Daniels is a short contract and a decent bench player, but Diogu never plays. Hinrich was one of the better PG's prior to last season.

Don't like Kidd for JO. Doesn't solve anything.

Don't like Williams for Lowry. Williams has a higher upside.

I'd consider JO for KMart and Camby depending on the state of KMart's knees.

I'd consider JO for Artest and Miller depending on Artest's mindset.

Young
06-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Where on earth did he even come up with some of these trades?

The Mavs are not going to deal Jason Kidd after just getting him. No way that would look like they made a mistake in trading for him in the first place. I mean maybe they might be willing to deal Josh Howard or Jason Terry but I think the Mavs are going to keep Kidd and Dirk no matter what the deal is.

I have mixed feelings on the second trade although I like it the best out of the five. I really think that Shawne can be a really good player in this league. I just question his off the court decisions. I like Lowry but to be honest I might offer up Ike but not much more. I think Shawne will be a better player than Lowry although Lowry fills a need for us which is defense at the point.

Of course we do the trade with Chicago but no way they give away Kirk Hinrich.

I doubt Denver would give up Camby for Jermaine. A deal involing Kenyon Martin wouldn't be so bad except his contract runs a little longer than Jermaine's so I would probably pass.

Proposing bringing back Ron Artest is insane. No way in hell that ever happens.

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 02:19 PM
Also, getting a defensive-minded 3rd stringer does not solve any glaring need.

:confused:

How many 3rd-stringers average 25 minutes a game?

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Is anybody else pissed off this was in the paper? It's one thing to post junk like this in a blog, but this is just another example how far the journalistic standards of the Star have fallen.

I can't wait to start seeing the reports that the Pacers beat reporter is talking about bringing back Artest.

:suicideInfinity:

Shade
06-08-2008, 02:24 PM
1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: O'Neal had his best season in 2003-04 playing for Rick Carlisle, now the Mavericks coach, and Dallas needs a low-post scorer. The early results on the Kidd experiment in Dallas weren't positive, but his addition not only would solve the Pacers' point guard problem immediately, it also would allow the 35-year-old to mentor their first-round pick, if they decide to go that route. Kidd will make $21.4 million in the final year of his contract.


Maybe. Kidd has one year less on his deal, so I can see why the Pacers would consider it, as it would give us a huge expiring one year earlier.


2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: The Pacers were atrocious at stopping dribble penetration last season. Lowry solves that. He's the tough, defensive-minded point guard the Pacers need to shore up the position. The Grizzlies have a surplus of young point guards in Lowry, Mike Conley Jr. and Javaris Crittenton and are trying to figure out what to do. The Pacers have a surplus of wing players and could part with Williams, who is from Memphis and starred there in college.

Maybe. I like Williams more and feel he has more upside, but Lowry fills a need for us more. This deal would be dependent on what other deals we make/players we draft.


3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: Hinrich's future in Chicago is cloudy, particularly if the Bulls select Derrick Rose in the draft. Hinrich has defensive issues but has averaged 6.4 assists and shoots 41 percent. Diogu never worked his way into the rotation after tearing his left calf early in the season.

Probably. I'm not a big fan of Hinrich, but neither Ike nor Quis have done much for us, and Kirk fills a need. Again, this would depend on what other moves we make.


4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: All-Stars Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson need a sidekick in Denver who can score in the low post. Camby will block shots and rebound -- 13.3 a game last season. Martin's injury problems -- he played only two games in the 2006-07 season -- and his contract -- three more years with a player option on the third year -- could worry the Pacers.

No. I don't like either of these players personally, and Martin's contract is the deal-breaker.


5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe. The Pacers have admitted they lost their toughness when they traded Artest in 2006. O'Neal said then he no longer could play with Artest, but that wouldn't be an issue in this deal. The self-proclaimed Tru Warier should be on his best behavior next season because he'll be in the final year of his contract, and he's yet to land a major new deal. He can start at power forward. Miller, also a former Pacer, is used to playing in a pass-oriented offensive system.

HELL NO. I want no part of Psycho Ron anymore.

Infinite MAN_force
06-08-2008, 02:39 PM
Wow. Really, Mr. Wells? These are the kind of trades Larry is probably looking at? How about getting a single quote from TPTB about what they're trying to accomplish this summer? Because this is all crap out of your head. Sam Smith you're not.

Can we just have Montieth back? Short version is I'm with Mourning and Kegboy, but for the record:

1. Bad trade for both teams. Rick just got there and likes Kidd; they won't be moving him this summer.
2. Sure, we'd do this. But Memphis wouldn't even think about it. Maybe we could trade Ike for M.Redd while we're at it.
3. Quis and Ike for Captian Kirk? I'd hit it. I doubt Chicago would, but it would probably improve both teams. Only problem is that Chicago can probably get more for Hinrich. It's a worthwhile proposal, though.
4. Gag me. Kenyon would break in half the moment he got to Indy.
5. That wasn't a flinch, it was an attempt not to reach through the computer screen and throttle Mike Wells.


When did Kyle Lowry become the messiah? I don't get it, he certainly has not done anymore in this leauge than shawne williams. His ceiling? career backup maybe? I don't get it. He is certainly nowhere near the same building as redd.

croz24
06-08-2008, 02:46 PM
it's pretty sad when realgm produces better articles about your team than does the local newspaper...anybody on here could come up with more feasible and realistic trade ideas with actual merit than this crap wells puts out...

grace
06-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Ron has proven time and time again to me that he has an extreme amount of talent, but he is mentally weak and is the most selfish player I've ever seen play in the NBA.

Then he would fit in just fine with the Bulls again.

grace
06-08-2008, 02:53 PM
how does wells still hold a job?

Because :kravitz: still does. And then there's the fact that he hasn't been there long enough for TPTB to push him out.

Hicks
06-08-2008, 02:54 PM
Wow. Really, Mr. Wells? These are the kind of trades Larry is probably looking at? How about getting a single quote from TPTB about what they're trying to accomplish this summer? Because this is all crap out of your head. Sam Smith you're not.

These are better than Sam Smith's ideas IMO. That's how bad Sam Smith is.

Hicks
06-08-2008, 02:57 PM
When did Kyle Lowry become the messiah? I don't get it, he certainly has not done anymore in this leauge than shawne williams. His ceiling? career backup maybe? I don't get it. He is certainly nowhere near the same building as redd.

Yeah, I still think that's a fair trade.

grace
06-08-2008, 03:13 PM
1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd

Between the non factor Kidd was in the playoffs and the fact that Anthony Johnson threw down 40 on him I wouldn't be trading for him.


2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry

If the Pacers want butts in the seats they trade for Conley. I don't know that Memphis is dumb enough to do the trade, but since they traded Pau Gasol for nothing I suppose anything is possible.


3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich

I have no problem with this trade. Probably because I don't think much of Kirk. I doubt Chicago does it unless they use it as a smoke screen to take their fans' minds of the fact that they still don't have a coach.


4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin

After watching Marcus Camby repeatedly get hurt whenever he played at Conseco I wouldn't trade for him. I certainly wouldn't want Kenyon Martin.



5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe.

Don't cringe? How about :suicide::suicide2::suicide3::suicide4::suicide5: instead?

Someone refresh my memory. Was :wells: here for the brawl or any of Ron's time here afterwards? Ron is a nut case and is never going to change. I can't believe the Pacers would be stupid enough to ever have Ron wear a Pacers jersey again. If they did 99.999999% of the fan base would go PFFL and burn Conseco to the ground.

Hicks
06-08-2008, 03:18 PM
I think Wells got her just before Ron left. So that would be the '05-'06 season, after the brawl.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-08-2008, 03:30 PM
why the hell would we want jason kidd? sure we need a pg but one for the future not one for a season or 2....lowry would be an awesome addition to this team i think. If the bulls were stupid enough to do that deal for heinrich i'd jump on it so fast and run with it! lol@ron artest coming back...I would love it but haha not a chance.

Infinite MAN_force
06-08-2008, 04:23 PM
I doubt chicago would trade Hinrich for just daniels and diogu, would a future first get it done?

You could probably get that done with daniels, diogu and #11, that seems like overpaying. However, I am starting to believe as some have said, that the value at 11 is not that great for us.

How about JO to cleveland for wally, snow, and the 19th and 23rd picks (send varejo to utah for #23) two late firsts and big expirings.

We get: Hinrich, #19, #23, and like 18 million dollars in cap room.

If speights fell to 19, and we took lopez with 23... We have potentially shored up the PG and big spots in one swoop, assuming everyone pans out.

If Speights doesen't fall, maybe Lopez and Bill Walker? Defensive slasher SG. Just gotta hope he doesen't turn into Stephan Jackson.

Gamble1
06-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Maybe. Kidd has one year less on his deal, so I can see why the Pacers would consider it, as it would give us a huge expiring one year earlier.



Maybe. I like Williams more and feel he has more upside, but Lowry fills a need for us more. This deal would be dependent on what other deals we make/players we draft.



Probably. I'm not a big fan of Hinrich, but neither Ike nor Quis have done much for us, and Kirk fills a need. Again, this would depend on what other moves we make.



No. I don't like either of these players personally, and Martin's contract is the deal-breaker.



HELL NO. I want no part of Psycho Ron anymore.
Totally agree with you Shade. Number 2 deal fits the need but why would Memphis do that deal.

There has got to be better deals out there than this speculation crap.

Trader Joe
06-08-2008, 04:50 PM
I still can't wrap my mind around anyone who thinks bring Ron back here would be a good idea. I don't care if he was a saint the rest of his career the Pacers wouldn't sell a single ticket next year.

AesopRockOn
06-08-2008, 04:53 PM
None of these will happen without the Pacers giving up picks because the deals actually benefit the Pacers.

Will Galen
06-08-2008, 05:24 PM
Wow. Really, Mr. Wells? These are the kind of trades Larry is probably looking at? How about getting a single quote from TPTB about what they're trying to accomplish this summer? Because this is all crap out of your head. Sam Smith you're not.

Can we just have Montieth back? Short version is I'm with Mourning and Kegboy, but for the record:

1. Bad trade for both teams. Rick just got there and likes Kidd; they won't be moving him this summer.
2. Sure, we'd do this. But Memphis wouldn't even think about it. Maybe we could trade Ike for M.Redd while we're at it.
3. Quis and Ike for Captian Kirk? I'd hit it. I doubt Chicago would, but it would probably improve both teams. Only problem is that Chicago can probably get more for Hinrich. It's a worthwhile proposal, though.
4. Gag me. Kenyon would break in half the moment he got to Indy.
5. That wasn't a flinch, it was an attempt not to reach through the computer screen and throttle Mike Wells.

I'm with Mourning, Kegboy, and Anthem!

d_c
06-08-2008, 05:46 PM
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble here, but as I've read this forum for about 18 months now, the one thing I've noticed is first and foremost how big an emphasis people place on character and how that's such an important part of evaluating a player.

Statements about how the Pacers can't afford another PR nightmare or how they can't bring in guys who have had problems with their conduct.

Now I read this thread and there's actually more than a couple people here who are actually OK with a scenario that brings back Ron Artest? Not that I think there's any chance of that happening, but I have to say I'm a little bit appalled by that sentiment.

eldubious
06-08-2008, 06:01 PM
The only deal that has weight is the Memphis deal, but if Lowry were in this draft he'd still be rated behind Westbrook and Augustine. Also, I think Shawne Williams has more upside than Lowry. Personally, I'd prefer Crittenton over Lowry. The Chicago deal just insulted Paxson's intelligence and he's not happy. Everyone with NBA IQ knows that any deal for Hinrich would include JO, especially if the Bulls take Rose.

ajbry
06-08-2008, 06:03 PM
#2 is the most feasible but it's still a very underwhelming deal for both sides and I would assume there are several other GMs who could make a better offer for Lowry (or Crittenton), which would allow the Grizz to keep Lowry...

The Denver deal makes no sense. First off, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that JO has more value than Camby alone at this point. Both are flawed, aging big men with large contracts but Camby doesn't take away touches from Melo and AI and can protect the rim as well as JO does. Add in Kenyon Martin, a fantastic interior defender, and it's a terrible deal for the Nuggets. It seems likely they'll try and shop him though, but I very much doubt it would be for JO along with their starting center.

And regarding the Sacto trade, why the hell does Wells think JO has enough trade value to net both Artest and Brad? That's not even taking into account the sheer ignorance of proposing such a deal...

Will Galen
06-08-2008, 06:22 PM
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble here, but as I've read this forum for about 18 months now, the one thing I've noticed is first and foremost how big an emphasis people place on character and how that's such an important part of evaluating a player.

Statements about how the Pacers can't afford another PR nightmare or how they can't bring in guys who have had problems with their conduct.

Now I read this thread and there's actually more than a couple people here who are actually OK with a scenario that brings back Ron Artest? Not that I think there's any chance of that happening, but I have to say I'm a little bit appalled by that sentiment.

The people that are saying it's okay are just voicing their opinion, however if you're aware of what's coming out of the Pacer's offices you know they aren't going to pick or trade for a guy that has suspect character.

Naptown_Seth
06-08-2008, 06:37 PM
I'd be fine with Lowry or Hinrich, but he problem in both deals is what others have said, those teams don't need what we are sending back.

HUGHES is at Chicago, do they really need Quis too? Does Memphis really need another SF?

The JO to CLE deal, Z and Sideshow, is the only reasonable rumor I've heard. I also think Portland would be interested in Dun and that could maybe get Jack back here and perhaps that 2nd pick.


Ron back to Indy? The words "laughing stock" come to mind. The guy has yet to stop being the selfish unpredictable freak he always was. Nice guy, sure, great player too, but only when he's on track. UNDEPENDABLE is the best description of Ron, and that we don't need.

Just wait out JO's deal already.


BTW, Wells mentions their desire to move Tins and then doesn't really even cook up a Tinsley deal.

Naptown_Seth
06-08-2008, 06:41 PM
:confused:

How many 3rd-stringers average 25 minutes a game?
Bald Boy?* :p






* no, I said BALL boy ;)

Shade
06-08-2008, 07:21 PM
#2 is the most feasible but it's still a very underwhelming deal for both sides and I would assume there are several other GMs who could make a better offer for Lowry (or Crittenton), which would allow the Grizz to keep Lowry...

The Denver deal makes no sense. First off, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that JO has more value than Camby alone at this point. Both are flawed, aging big men with large contracts but Camby doesn't take away touches from Melo and AI and can protect the rim as well as JO does. Add in Kenyon Martin, a fantastic interior defender, and it's a terrible deal for the Nuggets. It seems likely they'll try and shop him though, but I very much doubt it would be for JO along with their starting center.

And regarding the Sacto trade, why the hell does Wells think JO has enough trade value to net both Artest and Brad? That's not even taking into account the sheer ignorance of proposing such a deal...

The key for the Nuggets would be to rid themselves of Martin's contract.

Don't forget, Camby is a bit injury-prone as well.

Infinite MAN_force
06-08-2008, 07:58 PM
I'd be fine with Lowry or Hinrich, but he problem in both deals is what others have said, those teams don't need what we are sending back.

HUGHES is at Chicago, do they really need Quis too? Does Memphis really need another SF?

The JO to CLE deal, Z and Sideshow, is the only reasonable rumor I've heard. I also think Portland would be interested in Dun and that could maybe get Jack back here and perhaps that 2nd pick.




you are forgetting that Daniels value is as an expiring contract because of the team option after next season. Diogu too.

Essentially, Chicago gets out of Hinrich's contract and a small chance of seeing if Ike Diogu could be their post scorer. Problem being, I think Hinrich has a tad more value than that, but I think you could get it done with a pick.

you are right about memphis I think, unless they want shawne to play the 4.

With cleveland, I would rather have wally than Z because wally expires after next year and Z lasts two years. Z might get us into the playoffs next year but has no legitimate longterm value for the franchise, he is too old. I'd rather take the money and run. So to speak. Plus if we traded Ike and Marquis we would have to shed salary next year to pay granger.

ABADays
06-08-2008, 08:36 PM
I hate Tinsley with an absolute blazing passion and I would not trade him for Artest. Does that tell you how opposed I am to that idea?

owl
06-08-2008, 08:58 PM
BTW, Wells mentions their desire to move Tins and then doesn't really even cook up a Tinsley deal.


Isn't that very revealing? He could not think of one and so can no one else.
With Tinsley not being mentioned in the off-season training comment by Obrien
I am really curious to see what trade could be made to get rid of him.
Tinsley and a couple 1st's? I sure hope they are not thinking along those lines.
Maybe Tinsley and a player like Diogu or Williams or Daniels to sweeten
the deal.

With JO if it does not bring cap space and picks forget about it and wait out his contract.

CableKC
06-08-2008, 09:47 PM
The only one that remotely makes sense is the Lowry for Shawne trade....but I doubt that the Grizzlies do that.

The rest sound like Wells did his best impression of a newbie RealGM poster suggesting a trade on the trade forum. I think we dream up better trade proposals on our trade forum.

Kegboy
06-08-2008, 10:58 PM
Bald Boy?* :p






* no, I said BALL boy ;)

No, he only averaged 20, Stat Boy.

Smoothdave1
06-08-2008, 11:46 PM
Everyone relax a little. This was Mike Wells offering his opinion on a few deals he created. It's a slow time for the Pacers until the draft and he was looking to fill column space and throw some new ideas out there.

A lot of newspapers around the country are throwing out rumors as the draft is a few weeks away. How many teams has JO been rumored to? Cleveland? Chicago?

Why not think of a better trade(s) for the Pacers and let's discuss?

imawhat
06-09-2008, 02:51 AM
:confused:

How many 3rd-stringers average 25 minutes a game?

How many 3rd-stringers play on last place teams? I'd take Conley or Crit before I take Lowry. I'm unsure of where we're going in the draft, but I fully expect the Pacers to do something about the PG/backcourt defensive problems. Meanwhile, we're already lacking frontcourt depth.

Shawne could and should be playing PF for us; instead this trade would make us weaker in one area without really improving the other. Lowry would come off the bench. We need good starting defense.

Will Galen
06-09-2008, 08:05 AM
A lot of newspapers around the country are throwing out rumors as the draft is a few weeks away. How many teams has JO been rumored to? Cleveland? Chicago?

Why not think of a better trade(s) for the Pacers and let's discuss?

A rumor is something that could be true.

There's only been one JO rumor and that was to Cleveland and both teams shot it down. There's been a lot of writers, like Well's, that have played around with trade checker's and made suppositions for discussion purposes, or to fill column space, but those aren't rumors.

As for thinking up trades and discussing them, we already do that in the trade forum.

naptownmenace
06-09-2008, 10:26 AM
Ron is still a mental case but if he'd be the best player on the team if traded here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. :shrug:

Slick Pinkham
06-09-2008, 10:40 AM
I would love to have Lowry. In fact, I think I'd rather have him than draft Westbrook, and I really like Westbrook as a guy who can be the first capable defender for the pacers at the PG position since Woodie. Lowry is a better all-around PG.

D-BONE
06-09-2008, 11:28 AM
I would love to have Lowry. In fact, I think I'd rather have him than draft Westbrook, and I really like Westbrook as a guy who can be the first capable defender for the pacers at the PG position since Woodie. Lowry is a better all-around PG.

I'm not sure it wouldn't be ideal to add both assuming they were both accessible. Lowry is young but has a full season down. He's got good handles, great speed, is good defender, and is tough minded. Offensively, he offers very little. Worst case scenario, an ideal back-up PG.

Westbrook adds great D possibly at both G spots. Similar concerns about his offensive game but perhaps with more potential to develop in that area. These two could complement each other at the point with Westbrook potentially contributing at both guard spots or even distinguishing himself at SG.

In any case, this team needs perimeter D and that would be an immeadiate upgrade. At worst you have two excellent role players. With the importance of solid PG play these days, I'm not sure it's bad to have too many. And honestly, I'm still not convinced about Deiner being a long-term solution even as the back up. The jury is still out on him but, outside his attitude, I was underwhelmed by his outside shooting prowess and knew he would be a defensive liability.

I would have no problem coming out of this offeseason having acquired two new PGs if that is what transpires. Of course, there are other players I would not be unhappy to obtain via draft or trade. What would greatly disappoint me is no move whatsover aimed at our PG void.

Mourning
06-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Wells probably just included Artest too make his article a little more "interesting" or "provocative" I don't know, but retarded it is.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Naptown_Seth
06-09-2008, 12:43 PM
No, he only averaged 20, Stat Boy.
Like I've got time to look that up in the middle of summer.
:cool:

MagicRat
06-09-2008, 09:08 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/20040210060713/www.pacersdigest.com/articles/unclebuck102603.php

Kegboy
06-09-2008, 09:53 PM
Ouch. I think that would have hurt less if your avatar had shot him with that hand cannon.

Oneal07
06-09-2008, 11:29 PM
I don't want Jason Kidd here. He'd just complain

imawhat
06-10-2008, 01:11 AM
http://web.archive.org/web/20040210060713/www.pacersdigest.com/articles/unclebuck102603.php

Reading that made me want Artest again. :(

Kemo
06-10-2008, 02:17 AM
In all honesty.. when the brawl happened.. YES I was angry , but ya know,
***** happens...
As far as the fallout from the brawl , even though Ron messed up , by losing his temper... There are sooo many factors , that could have prevented that whole situation....
At the time... yes I wanted players from both sides punished... and Ron to be punished for goin after that asshat who threw that cup of beer at him...
I can't say that I blame Ron for goin after the guy , but on the same hand , he shoulda showed more self control.... like I said ***** happens...

After that whole debacle... YES , I wanted a few players gone... but not so much for the Detroit incident...
At the time , I hated S. Jackson.. as a player.. he just p*ssed me off .. The same is ESPECIALLY true with Tinsley.... I have wanted him gone for quite awhile...
I was one of the few people that really didn't want to see Artest go... He was too damn good of a defensive player, not to mention all-around player... and other than the Detroit incident... He really didn't have many off-the court issues...

I think there are some fans who would be mad if we got Artest back, but I think just as many who left as fans, would come back as fans or new fans would emerge...
Since Artest got traded... he hasn't played as well , and he has had an injury he has been dealing with , which should be pretty much gone by now...

I honestly believe Ron Artest left his heart and love of the game , in Indiana when he got traded... He hasn't been the same since... I believe he truly loved being an Indiana Pacer..

I also really believe if by some twist of fate , he ended up coming back to the Pacers , he would not only be on his best behavior , but I think we would see a player emerge into an all-star , like he was destined to be , before fate , in the form of a *****-headed Detroit Pistons fan , stepped in and derailed everything...

I would love to see us give him another chance... I don't think he would let us down....

Not to mention , if the #5 trade listed ever happened, do any of you realize how many people are BIG Brad Miller fans?

EVERYONE I know , especially older people i have talked to , love the guy , and was sad to see him traded...

I believe if somehow , someway we got Brad Miller AND Artest... this whole organization would change DRASTICALLY this next season...
We would have our dominant Center in Miller , and one hell of a defensive player in Artest , who can also put up some decent numbers offensively..


I think that the fans gained/lost would balance itself out...
I think we could go from a 35 win team .. easily to a 45 team .. just by that trade alone... then if we could draft a good PG in Augustin , Westbrooke , or if we could get lucky enough to somehow get Gordon .. I see us making a good run in the playoffs ..

I know ther are some of you who really hate Artest.. and that is fine.. but you cannot deny the man's ability to play defense.. and like I said I think we would see a complete 180 in not only his game , but his attitude .. should we welcome him back to the place he would love to call home again...

Peck
06-10-2008, 03:17 AM
In all honesty.. when the brawl happened.. YES I was angry , but ya know,
***** happens...
As far as the fallout from the brawl , even though Ron messed up , by losing his temper... There are sooo many factors , that could have prevented that whole situation....
At the time... yes I wanted players from both sides punished... and Ron to be punished for goin after that asshat who threw that cup of beer at him...
I can't say that I blame Ron for goin after the guy , but on the same hand , he shoulda showed more self control.... like I said ***** happens...

After that whole debacle... YES , I wanted a few players gone... but not so much for the Detroit incident...
At the time , I hated S. Jackson.. as a player.. he just p*ssed me off .. The same is ESPECIALLY true with Tinsley.... I have wanted him gone for quite awhile...
I was one of the few people that really didn't want to see Artest go... He was too damn good of a defensive player, not to mention all-around player... and other than the Detroit incident... He really didn't have many off-the court issues...

I think there are some fans who would be mad if we got Artest back, but I think just as many who left as fans, would come back as fans or new fans would emerge...
Since Artest got traded... he hasn't played as well , and he has had an injury he has been dealing with , which should be pretty much gone by now...

I honestly believe Ron Artest left his heart and love of the game , in Indiana when he got traded... He hasn't been the same since... I believe he truly loved being an Indiana Pacer..

I also really believe if by some twist of fate , he ended up coming back to the Pacers , he would not only be on his best behavior , but I think we would see a player emerge into an all-star , like he was destined to be , before fate , in the form of a *****-headed Detroit Pistons fan , stepped in and derailed everything...

I would love to see us give him another chance... I don't think he would let us down....

Not to mention , if the #5 trade listed ever happened, do any of you realize how many people are BIG Brad Miller fans?

EVERYONE I know , especially older people i have talked to , love the guy , and was sad to see him traded...

I believe if somehow , someway we got Brad Miller AND Artest... this whole organization would change DRASTICALLY this next season...
We would have our dominant Center in Miller , and one hell of a defensive player in Artest , who can also put up some decent numbers offensively..


I think that the fans gained/lost would balance itself out...
I think we could go from a 35 win team .. easily to a 45 team .. just by that trade alone... then if we could draft a good PG in Augustin , Westbrooke , or if we could get lucky enough to somehow get Gordon .. I see us making a good run in the playoffs ..

I know ther are some of you who really hate Artest.. and that is fine.. but you cannot deny the man's ability to play defense.. and like I said I think we would see a complete 180 in not only his game , but his attitude .. should we welcome him back to the place he would love to call home again...


While I respect your opinion on this I will just say that there was not one word you typed there that I agreed with. You even had me convinced that getting Brad Miller back would be a bad thing and I was so mad at the Miller trade that I initially cancelled my tix for the season.

The idea that Ron's only off-court trouble comes in the form of the brawl is...well politely speaking just plain wrong.

I don't care if he played defense better than Bill Russell or even scored like Jordan. He is a self centered cancer who does nothing and I mean nothing but disrupt a team.

There is a reason that Sacramento would do handstands to get rid of Artest by any means possible, it's the same reason why we unloaded him for penny's on the dollar.

No thank you.

As to the article itself, wow, really???? That's the best trades that Wells could come up with?

Mike was on cruise control there I'm afraid.

Kemo
06-10-2008, 04:19 AM
I respect your's and everyone elses opinions as well my friend...


I mean really , I can see how you feel about Artest as a person , 100% .. but as a player.. you cannot deny his talent.. I agree with you for the most part on him.. EXCEPT on Artest the PLAYER... HE would most defnitely help this Pacer team get WINS .. and wins= filled seats.. regardless of past animosity towards Ron the person...
ALSO , you say he is a self centered cancer... which may be so.. BUT He is NOWHERE NEAR.. the cancer to this team.. than Tinsley has been... I would take Artest ANY DAY over MEL MEL TINSLEY... hands down... lol...



Also if you notice , I said that the aquiring of Brad Miller.. would balance out getting Artest... in alot of people's eyes.. but really only if Ron becomes a model citizen on and off the court...
which , like I also said, I think he would try his damndest to do so, as I think he KNOWS he F'd up .. and p*ssed away , playing for a team I believe he truly loved being a part of..



but off the subject of Ron .. since there are those who like him , and those, such as yourself who cannot stand him.. and it is understandable ..





Why would you say I had you convinced about B Miller being a bad thing?
I guess I dont understand that one.. lol

Because Brad would most DEFINITELY bring back fans to the Fieldhouse.. and he is one hell of a player... and from what I have seen he is a more refined player than he was when he was in a Pacer's Uni...

Slick Pinkham
06-10-2008, 08:31 AM
Ron ...there are those who like him

Those are the fans of teams that he has not played on, when they realize that their favorite team could possibly obtain a talented player for pennies on the dollar.

They don't know about missed meetings, missed flights, temper tantrums, mood swings, random acts of rage, and a consistant refusal to accept mental health services or use prescription medication



and those...who cannot stand him

Those are the fans of the teams he has played for already, and even his coaches and the players who have played with him.

Maybe "can't stand" is harsh, but cannot tolerate his behavior, even if it is accompanied by occasional on-court excellence.

ChicagoJ
06-10-2008, 12:13 PM
Tom and Peck to the rescue!!

I read this article and decided I'm not ready to return to watching NBA basketball any time soon. Maybe after Artest has left the league (in whatever way he eventually leaves the league), I'll pay attention again (especially since the Bulls passed over the Rifleman for their HC position.)

Meanwhile, there is this Division III team in town where I know the coach and the kids are truly student-athletes that love playing the game of basketball. Sounds like a good alternative to me.

Unclebuck
06-10-2008, 02:35 PM
Funny how this has turned into an Artest thread

grace
06-10-2008, 02:43 PM
Funny how this has turned into an Artest thread

Well, it is the most outlandish of the ridiculous trades :wells: proposed.

YoSoyIndy
06-10-2008, 07:06 PM
ALSO , you say he is a self centered cancer... which may be so.. BUT He is NOWHERE NEAR.. the cancer to this team.. than Tinsley has been... I would take Artest ANY DAY over MEL MEL TINSLEY... hands down... lol...

So you think he may be a cancer, but don't mind acquiring him because we have a bigger cancer?

"I don't mind liver cancer -- it's not nearly as bad as the lung cancer I have, so screw it."

Kemo
06-10-2008, 08:16 PM
So you think he may be a cancer, but don't mind acquiring him because we have a bigger cancer?

"I don't mind liver cancer -- it's not nearly as bad as the lung cancer I have, so screw it."



LOL well if you put it that way... .. TOUCHE' :buddies:


It's like this... I , as a fan , who just watch the games.. have only recently started reading things on the internet pertaining to behind the scenes stuff in regards to players and such...... So back when he played on the Pacers.. all I knew was what I saw on the court,....

To me everything else is hearsay ... unless proven fact... All I know is he was a good ballplayer .. with some anger issues... but that he seemed like a genuinely decent guy...

The way I look at it is.. I dont give a rats butt .. what a player does in his personal life.. If he is an butthole , smokes dope in the offseason , as long as he isnt getting in trouble with the law , or shedding the team in a bad light... (i know , I know the brawl .. lol ).. I am fine with the 3 strike rule.... All I am concerned with .. is that he earns his contract .. and entertains me and helps WIN games .. like he is PAID to do .
The rest of the drama can unfold on msg boards and blogs lol..
Now the Detroit situation , was something no one could have seen coming.. bad things happen...



now mel mel the abuser.. lol that's a whole nother story not for this thread .. lol

but ya I still dont think the 5 trade would be that bad... hell even if it was JUST to get MILLER and trade off Artest beforehand to another team in a 3 way deal with .. let's say DENVER... I KNOW DENVER WANTS HIM...

but ya im sorry guys for the massive thread drift.. I just really want to get B Miller back , even if we have to get artest... whatever we do with him.. but you cannot deny he is a good player,,

Im done.. lol sorry all lol