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Hicks
06-03-2008, 12:11 PM
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Partial-Measurements-and-Combine-Results-Released-2911/

by Draft Express

June 3, 2008
We’ll be posting the entire spreadsheet shortly, but here are some of the most interesting results. Keep in mind that this is hardly the holy grail in regards to talent evaluation. But people definitely love to look, which is why we rushed out the first results.

Michael Beasley measured at 6-7 without shoes, and 6-8 ¼ with. His wingspan in 7-0 ¼ and his standing reach is 8-11. He did fairly well in the combine, lifting the 185 bar 19 times, jumping 35 inches on the max vert, but measuring a slightly high body fat at 7.7%

Derrick Rose came out a bit shorter than advertised, at just 6-1 ½ in shoes and 6-2 ½ in. He has a 6-8 wingspan, a 40 inch vertical and ran the 3/4 court sprint very fast at 3.05.

Brook Lopez is a legit 7-footer in shoes. He also has a phenomenal 7-5 ½ wingspan and an outrageous 9-5 standing reach. He did not do very well at all in the combine though, jumping just 30 inches in the max vert and coming dead last in the lane agility drill at 12.77.

Jerryd Bayless is a legit 6-3 in shoes, and he has expected has a very poor wingspan at 6-3 ½. He did well in the combine, though, jumping 38 inches, lifting the 185 bar 10 times, running 11.26 in the lane agility drills, and sprinting ¾ court in 3.07 seconds.

Kevin Love measured out reasonably well—6-9 ½ in shoes (6-7 ¾ without), with a 6-11 ¼ wingspan and an 8-10 standing reach. His body fat is still very high at 12.9%, but in the combine he jumped 35 inches, lifted the 185 bar 18 times, and ran very well (11.17, 3.22)

O.J. Mayo is 6-3 ¼ without shoes, 6-4 ½ with, with a 6-6 wingspan and 8-3 standing reach. He had the second best vertical leap at 41 inches and ran 11.04 and 3.14.

Eric Gordon is 6-3 ¼ in shoes, with a terrific 6-9 wingspan. He jumped 40 inches, lifted the bar 15 times, and ran 10.81 and 3.01. He plays like a great athlete, and tested out well too.

Anthony Randolph is 6-10 ¼ in shoes, with a freakish 7-3 wingspan and 9-1 standing reach. He is skinny as expected at 4.7% body fat, jumped 35 inches on the max vert, and ran just OK at 11.86 and 3.26.

DeAndre Jordan came in an inch short at 6-11, but has an outrageous 7-6 wingspan and 9-5 ½ standing reach that more than compensates. He jumped poorly at 30.5 inches, lifted the bar 8 times, and ran the drills in 12.3 and 3.27 seconds.

The biggest wingspan: John Riek at 7-8 ¾. His standing reach was N/A. Probably too long to believe. We’re told its 9-10, and certainly believe that.
Biggest standing reach: JaVale McGee- 9-6 ½.

Lightest Player: Mike Taylor- 166 pounds, followed by D.J. Augustin at 171.
Heaviest Player: Kentrell Gransberry- 290 pounds
Lowest Body Fat: Lester Hudson- 3.4%
Highest Body Fat: Kentrell Gransberry -17.4% body fat
Best no-step vertical: Patrick Ewing- 35 inches
Best Max-Step Vertical: O.J. Mayo- 42 inches (tied with Ewing)
Bench Press: Josh Duncan 26 reps
Fastest Lane Agility: Sonny Weems- 10.58 seconds
Fastest ¾ Court Sprint: Sonny Weems- 2.96, (Joe Alexander 2.99)

Others:

Joey Dorsey measured in at only 6’6.25 without shoes, and 6’7.25 with shoes, but had a +7.5 wingspan and managed a very respectable 19 reps off 185 on the bench.

DeVon Hardin stands 6’10.75 in shoes with a 7’3 wingspan, he had 20 reps on the bench and recorded a 32” max vertical leap.
Josh Duncan put up 26 reps of 185 on the bench, recorded a 32” max vertical leap, is 6’8 without shoes, and recorded a body far percentage of only 5.4%.

Patrick Ewing Jr. recorded the highest max vertical leap on the day recording 42”, but struggled on the bench, finishing with only 2 reps. His is 9.4% body fat was surprising for a player of his build as well. At only 6’6 without shoes, he’s between positions with his measurables and game very much in conflict.

Richard Hendrix tested out very well. He is a hair under 6-9 in shoes, has a 7-3 wingspan, a 9-0 standing reach, and ran a 10.62 and 3.27. He jumped just 28 inches in the max vert.

================================

Hicks
06-03-2008, 12:14 PM
They don't say it, but it looks like Gordon, without shoes, is about 6'2" or so. But with shoes 6'3" and change. A 6'9" wingspan for him is probably significant, though.

For reference, typically (as I understand it) your wingspan is supposed to match your height (though in the NBA I think this usually is not the case because of their uniqueness), so that's a good reach for Gordon.

Interesting that Beasley is 2" shorter than sometimes advertised.

Kevin Love is "tall enough" in shoes, 6'9". Interesting about his body fat being high because he looked noticeably skinnier recently in a video interview. Perhaps the body fat was that much higher previously. It's going in the right direction, at least.

count55
06-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Oops, I just posted this in the other thread...sorry.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Well, I think you can safely scratch Gordon off the possible drop list. Those are great measurements for him. I'm not surprised that Rose came in smaller than him. His lift numbers are also strong, which isn't surprising considering that his biggest advantage is that fact that he has an NBA body right now.

Also I wonder how many times Mayo did the lift.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2008, 12:22 PM
Love matches Beasley in the basic numbers, so end of concern on that. He may look/be heavy but if he jumps and runs like he's light then so what. He just ran faster and quicker than Jordan and outjumped him too, and Jordan is supposed to be drafted on his potential.

Sounds to me like EJ just turned his stock around and will hold fast in the top 8.

DJ at 171 pounds. Confirms concerns about his size to play in the NBA.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't think Jordan's potential is based on out running and jumping Kevin Love, it's about his monster size and length.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Reply Jordan:

Please don't draft him. Isn't his whole schtick supposed to be his athleticism? Well he appears to be average at best in that department, and didn't do jack this season at A&M. He looks closer to Patrick O'Bryant than Dwight Howard right now.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 12:24 PM
I don't think Jordan's potential is based on out running and jumping Kevin Love, it's about his monster size and length.

I'd rather take a flyer on Javale McGee then.

rexnom
06-03-2008, 12:28 PM
I wonder what Augustin and Westbrook came in at.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 12:30 PM
BTW, I think all of you who said Gordon was slow owe him an apology. Either that or you need to apply the same tag to Rose, Mayo, and Bayless. If you do that I would then like you to inform me what you consider fast.

OakMoses
06-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Love matches Beasley in the basic numbers, so end of concern on that. He may look/be heavy but if he jumps and runs like he's light then so what.

I thought that was interesting also. We've heard Love's athleticism questioned all year, but I've never heard anybody even remotely suggest that Beasly's not athletic enough to play in the NBA.

Sometimes these measurements are really interesting. I remember looking at last year's measurements and seeing that Carl Landry was less than 1" shorter than Josh McRoberts. At that point McRoberts was being talked about as a mid-first round pick and Landry was going to be lucky to get drafted. I also remember thinking "Anybody with a brain knows that Landry's a better ball-player than McRoberts." I guess NBA GM's have brains.

Kegboy
06-03-2008, 01:10 PM
As has been said, Gordon was never going to drop to us. Not even close.

Love's body fat is a bit of a concern. Kind of surprised Lopez is that big. Doesn't play like it at times.

I'm with Indy on Jordan. Every day I become more convinced he's going to be the bust of this draft. He's been dropping in the Mocks, I sure hope no one is stupid enough to waste a lottery pick on him.

Tom White
06-03-2008, 01:17 PM
BTW, I think all of you who said Gordon was slow owe him an apology.

I think the main difference is that this year (at IU) Gordon didn't give a rodent's hind quarter, but now he is working towards earning the big bucks. Hence the greater effort.

PaceBalls
06-03-2008, 01:20 PM
How do these results compare to previous years players? like DWade or Lebron, Chris Paul, our Shawne Williams, Granger etc...

Kraft
06-03-2008, 01:26 PM
Finally, there will be no more discussions on Eric Gordon's height.

Beasley's measurements, about what I'd expected, just solidify Rose at No. 1 to me.

Rajah Brown
06-03-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm kinda shocked that Love had a 35" vertical. Obviously, with the
way he plays, that's not necessarily of paramount importance. But
that's outstanding for a white dude with his size/build. I figured
he'd be under 30".

Since86
06-03-2008, 01:40 PM
How do these results compare to previous years players? like DWade or Lebron, Chris Paul, our Shawne Williams, Granger etc...

I know that DWade's vert came in at 36, I do believe, and LeBron's was around 40.

They weren't the best athlete of the draft, that honor went to a player that's not even in the NBA, which is why I hate these measurements.

Instead of vert testing, I think it should be height. How high they can jump.

I mean when you look at Lopez's report it says that he jumped just 30in. in the vert test, but when you combine that with his standing reach, 9'5", that's pretty damn high. It comes out to be just under 12ft. He can jump and touch almost twelve feet taking one step.

How much higher do you want him to be able to touch?

owl
06-03-2008, 01:43 PM
I wonder what the measureables were on Alexander? Too bad love will be long gone.
The last nbadraft.net mock is starting to look pretty realistic. Westbrook will be long gone
by the time the Pacers pick. I do not want Augustin. Take Lawson later with an additional
pick if possible.

Bball
06-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Finally, there will be no more discussions on Eric Gordon's height.



Yes, and those of us who said he looks about 6-2 will revel in our smugness of being right :devil: ;)

-Bball

Since86
06-03-2008, 01:47 PM
Yes, and those of us who said he looks about 6-2 will revel in our smugness of being right :devil: ;)

-Bball

I didn't know he played barefoot.:p

He's closer to 6'4" than he his 6'2" when he's on the court, so unless you hid in his closet and watched him walk around before bed, I don't know why you'd be considered right.

JayRedd
06-03-2008, 01:48 PM
I find this to all be pretty dumb.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2008, 01:54 PM
How do these results compare to previous years players? like DWade or Lebron, Chris Paul, our Shawne Williams, Granger etc...

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=ASC&draft=0&sort=

btowncolt
06-03-2008, 01:54 PM
He's closer to 6'4" than he his 6'2" when he's on the court, so unless you hid in his closet and watched him walk around before bed, I don't know why you'd be considered right.

I had the Wednesday through Saturday shift, so I can vouch Bball wasn't there then.

rexnom
06-03-2008, 01:56 PM
I didn't know he played barefoot.:p

He's closer to 6'4" than he his 6'2" when he's on the court, so unless you hid in his closet and watched him walk around before bed, I don't know why you'd be considered right.
You just answered your own question...

blanket
06-03-2008, 01:56 PM
the complete measurements are up now, sortable too:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2008&sort2=ASC&draft=0&sort=

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 01:59 PM
George HIll had a 6'9" wingspan. Thats really impressive for someone who is 6'2.5" in shoes.

Mayo with seven reps on the bench press.

Vince Neil
06-03-2008, 02:04 PM
I find this to all be pretty dumb.

I would agree.

Robertmto
06-03-2008, 02:08 PM
so before the 30 pounds Love lost after the season I was completely right.

He was 6'8 and 290. tsk tsk tsk

Robertmto
06-03-2008, 02:11 PM
So Mayo and EJ are basically the same size, only Gordon has the better wingspan.

Hmmmm, who should go number 3? :devil:

Dece
06-03-2008, 02:23 PM
The better player of course... Mayo.

Bball
06-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Obviously the idea of 'stretching' a player's height works with some of you. He's not 6-4. Even with shoes he's not 6-4... altho I don't get the shoe measurement anyway. If there's ever been a meaningless statistic that has to be it. Of course your shoes are going to add about an inch of height but it's the same for everyone.

At 6-2 Gordon is too small to play SG in the NBA. I don't care if you put stilts on him and make him 6-7 to fudge the numbers. He's still really a 6-2 player. He needed to be REALLY 6-4 just so he could be a little undersized for a SG in the NBA. Of course there are exceptions, but Eric Gordon doesn't appear to be an exception. His handles are subpar and his shot selection has appeared questionable. If he didn't have the wrist injury to fall back on as an excuse, he would've fallen off the charts with his lackluster play as the college stage got bigger and the opposing teams got stronger. Which is not to say the injury might not have been a legitimate excuse for some of the problems (ball handling for example). But the injury can't be blamed for his brain telling him to shoot when his shot isn't falling and he's several feet beyond the arc.

He has to be -projected- into being a special player that has the -potential- to overcome his height limitations. That takes a lot of 'ifs' falling to his favor.

Unless he can improve his handles, passing, and decision making and transition to an NBA PG then I don't expect he'll be living up to the hype that was bestowed upon him before the college season began.

He's a project essentially, not a savior or immediate starter IMHO.

.02,
Bball

Kegboy
06-03-2008, 02:28 PM
DJ is 5'11.5", but his wingspan is the same 6'3.5" as Bayless.

OTOH, he's 172lb, but 8.1% body fat. :eyebrow2:

Kegboy
06-03-2008, 02:30 PM
I hadn't noticed earlier that Gordon lifted 15 times. Almost twice as much as Jordan's 8.

[edit] Ty Lawson lifted 14 to Lopez's 7.

DisapointedPacerFan
06-03-2008, 02:35 PM
I wonder what Augustin and Westbrook came in at.
Westbrook was 6' 2.5" without shoes and Augustin was 5' 10" w/o shoes. Westbrook looks much stronger than Augustin, doing 185 12 times to Augustins 185 twice.

blanket
06-03-2008, 02:36 PM
No wonder every team not picking top 2-3 is trying to trade down, including the Pacers. I've never seen so much parity between projected lottery picks and mid/late first rounders.

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:39 PM
Love matches Beasley in the basic numbers, so end of concern on that. He may look/be heavy but if he jumps and runs like he's light then so what. He just ran faster and quicker than Jordan and outjumped him too, and Jordan is supposed to be drafted on his potential.

Sounds to me like EJ just turned his stock around and will hold fast in the top 8.

DJ at 171 pounds. Confirms concerns about his size to play in the NBA.

the difference being beasley is MUCH more of a perimeter player who utilizes his quickness as well as post game. love is nothing but a low post player who can hit the open outside j. beasley can play some sf. love cannot. there is no comparison between the two in that regard because they are entirely different players. love is a 6'9" brad miller.

d_c
06-03-2008, 02:40 PM
Westbrook is basically the same height as Monta Ellis with a bigger wingspan. A little bit over 6'2" w/o shoes.

DJ Augustin was what I expected. Around 5'10" w/o shoes.

Darrell Arthur measuring under 6'9" WITH shoes with a Troy Murphy like wingspan was a bit disappointing.

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:41 PM
So Mayo and EJ are basically the same size, only Gordon has the better wingspan.

Hmmmm, who should go number 3? :devil:

i believe that said mayo was that height WITHOUT shoes while gordon was that height WITH shoes. there's an inch + difference between the two height wise. if gordon could dribble at all, he'd be talked about like mayo. but he can't.

Kraft
06-03-2008, 02:43 PM
Darrell Arthur measuring under 6'9" WITH shoes with a Troy Murphy like wingspan was a bit disappointing.

That was a bit surprising. Great footwork doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't get the shot off.

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:44 PM
Westbrook is basically the same height as Monta Ellis with a bigger wingspan. A little bit over 6'2" w/o shoes.

DJ Augustin was what I expected. Around 5'10" w/o shoes.

Darrell Arthur measuring under 6'9" WITH shoes with a Troy Murphy like wingspan was a bit disappointing.

ellis was also a top 5 player out of high school with a tremendous offensive repertoire. westbrook is a far cry from what ellis was even in high school on the offensive end. westbrook can't shoot a lick, is a very suspect ball handler, and has no variety on offense.

Kegboy
06-03-2008, 02:44 PM
Of course, I went back to '05. Joey Graham benched 26 times, to Danny's 10.

[edit] Ike did 21.

Shade
06-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Eric Gordon is 6-3 ¼ in shoes, with a terrific 6-9 wingspan. He jumped 40 inches, lifted the bar 15 times, and ran 10.81 and 3.01. He plays like a great athlete, and tested out well too.

Come on, Larry. Work your magic. :pray:

Kraft
06-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Yes, and those of us who said he looks about 6-2 will revel in our smugness of being right.

If I remember correctly, 6-2 3/4 was my guess.

Is that considered reveling?

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:47 PM
got to say, it's pretty damn interesting that joe alexander's measureables are as good as if not better than most of the power forwards in this draft...hmm...

d_c
06-03-2008, 02:48 PM
ellis was also a top 5 player out of high school with a tremendous offensive repertoire. westbrook is a far cry from what ellis was even in high school on the offensive end. westbrook can't shoot a lick, is a very suspect ball handler, and has no variety on offense.

I'm just talking in terms of physical measurements. As far as their games go, they have some overlap, but are pretty different in other areas. I see Westbrook as a better defender at both G positions, though.

DisapointedPacerFan
06-03-2008, 02:51 PM
This stood out at me the most...Joe Alexander can lift 185 24 times, more than anybody else except Josh Duncan (26 times). Of the better-known prospects, Beasely came the closest, lifting 185 19 times. Kevin Love did 185 18 times. DeVon Hardin did it 20 times

Robertmto
06-03-2008, 02:51 PM
i believe that said mayo was that height WITHOUT shoes while gordon was that height WITH shoes. there's an inch + difference between the two height wise. if gordon could dribble at all, he'd be talked about like mayo. but he can't.

ita an inch exactly. not a big deal ata all, especially when gordon has 3 inches on him in height and is also just as athletic.

Rajah Brown
06-03-2008, 02:55 PM
Past a certain point, I can't think of any more meaningless stat
when it comes to hoops than the BP reps. Placing anything other
than very minimal importance on it is akin to using it as a
definitive stat when evaling a QB in football.

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm just talking in terms of physical measurements. As far as their games go, they have some overlap, but are pretty different in other areas. I see Westbrook as a better defender at both G positions, though.

body wise, westbrook is a pretty good comparison to ellis. but i think the ellis clone in this draft is jerryd bayless...god i was hoping we'd nab ellis or louis williams in that draft. very dumb decision on our part not to...

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 03:00 PM
Westbrook was 6' 2.5" without shoes and Augustin was 5' 10" w/o shoes. Westbrook looks much stronger than Augustin, doing 185 12 times to Augustins 185 twice.


Wouldn't the measurement with shoes be the important one? I like Westbrook I just don't know if he is going to be a PG in this league.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 03:09 PM
Ouch. Augustin measured out at 5'10". Please don't pick him at 11, Larry.

d_c
06-03-2008, 03:12 PM
Ouch. Augustin measured out at 5'10". Please don't pick him at 11, Larry.

Are people honestly shocked by this? I mean just look at the guy standing next to most other college players.

6' tall my @ss, LOL.

d_c
06-03-2008, 03:13 PM
Wouldn't the measurement with shoes be the important one?

That's fine too.

So everyone puts there shoes on and they're all still 3-4 inches taller than Augustin.

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 03:15 PM
So by these measurements is Joe Alexander a PF or a SF in the NBA.

d_c
06-03-2008, 03:15 PM
So by these measurements is Joe Alexander a PF or a SF in the NBA.

SF in a standard scheme.

PF in a small ball scheme.

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 03:18 PM
That's fine too.

So everyone puts there shoes on and they're all still 3-4 inches taller than Augustin.

Do you think he can be a quality PG or is he just to short to excell at the next level.

OT....Do you think loosing J-Rich this year hurt your guys. I just couldn't believe the Warriors moved the guy...

d_c
06-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Do you think he can be a quality PG or is he just to short to excell at the next level.

OT....Do you think loosing J-Rich this year hurt your guys. I just couldn't believe the Warriors moved the guy...

If you want to count Chris Paul as 6' tall, TJ Ford has probably been the most successful under 6' player in the league of recent memory.

Is Augustin as quick or skilled as Ford? I dunno. Haven't watched enough of him.

Losing JRich definitely hurt the Warriors this year. But go to Hoopshype and look at the salary situation and you'll realize that keeping him while re-signing Biedrins and Monta all the while staying under the luxury tax wasn't realistic.

And it's not like they lost him for nothing. They just got something valuable who wasn't quite ready to contribute immediately, though I imagine Brandan Wright would have probably pulled off 10 pts and 6 rebs pretty easily for a bad team.

croz24
06-03-2008, 03:29 PM
looks like joe alexander, eric gordon, brian roberts, and malik hairston improved their stocks the most...although gordon's athleticsm won't last long...

pacergod2
06-03-2008, 03:31 PM
This makes me feel like Augustin is better than he is. The guy is two inches shorter than everybody thought and was still that dominant in college. My buddy went to the same gym as the Sixers a few years ago when Iverson was in Philly. He has a picture of him and my buddy isn't any over 5'10" and he is taller than Iverson. Short people can play in this league. And as always short scares people off. Augustin has a lot of talent. Period. Look at how Steve Nash hits those fall away jump shots. He has had to learn this over the years to be effective. A good basketball player will always find a way to be effective. I think Augustin is one of the few guys from pick 3-15 that inherently understand the movement of the game. I think Kevin Love, Gallinari, Brandon Rush and OJ Mayo do too. I think Gordon and Bayless can take advantage of their man offensively but thats it. They aren't tactful in getting their teammates involved. Doesn't mean they won't be decent pros, I just want the guy that sees the whole game because they are capable of diminishing other players' flaws. I just think guys like Anthony Randolph will flop, because they rely solely on athleticism to be decent basketball players. A la Gerald Green.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 03:39 PM
looks like joe alexander, eric gordon, brian roberts, and malik hairston improved their stocks the most...although gordon's athleticsm won't last long...

Where's it going to go?

Dr. Goldfoot
06-03-2008, 03:44 PM
Where's it going to go?

I imagine he's implying what was so great in college is quite abundant in the pros.

Dr. Goldfoot
06-03-2008, 03:47 PM
I'm really pulling for Gordon to do well, I am from Indiana and went to IU afterall. The odds are against him though. He'll be nearly a half foot shorter than the average NBA SG.

croz24
06-03-2008, 03:48 PM
Where's it going to go?

eric gordon will be a charles barkley type. athletic in his early years, fat later on. gordon has always dealt with weight issues and his 8+% body fat is not encouraging. gordon has been known to lack discipline in the offseason by eating poorly and gaining 20+ lbs. his head's just not always in it...yes, and gordon will be competing against equal athletes in the nba. he won't be able to gain seperation like he occasionally did in college...

Bball
06-03-2008, 04:01 PM
If I remember correctly, 6-2 3/4 was my guess.

Is that considered reveling?

Well... if this was The Price is Right then I'm afraid you would've went over and lost this Showcase Showdown.

;)

-Bball

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:01 PM
You want to use Barkley as your comparison?

Barkley, the undersized PF who is a HOF'er Barkley?

If Gordon does the equivilant for a SG that Barkley did as a PF, Gordon will have won an MVP and be a future HOF'er.

He will be a Barkley type player that will only to occasionally gain seperation in the NBA?

Only if most players could occasionally gain the seperation that Barkley was able to......

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:06 PM
You want to use Barkley as your comparison?

Barkley, the undersized PF who is a HOF'er Barkley?

If Gordon does the equivilant for a SG that Barkley did as a PF, Gordon will have won an MVP and be a future HOF'er.

He will be a Barkley type player that will only to occasionally gain seperation in the NBA?

Only if most players could occasionally gain the seperation that Barkley was able to......

i think it was pretty obvious i was referring to his body type :rolleyes: no need to try to take this elsewhere

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:13 PM
Yeah, my point exactly.

Charles Barkley's body type was an undersized PF, who had the unbelieveable phsyical ability to out play those at his position. His athleticism made him a beast even though he was battling players that dwarfed him.

If Gordon is able to use his athletic ability to outplay bigger SG, then what's the problem?

I could careless if he baloons after he gets done playing, and that 10yrs removed he can't beat an 80y/o in a foot race.

Charles Barkley and his undersized extremely athletic body type did wonders. If Gordon can do anything similiar it will be one hell of a career.

EDIT: I didn't even tap into the 8% body fat remark, because it's pretty far off base. Just because a writer calls someone with body fat around 10%, overweight doesn't mean it's true.

4% body fat is actually considered borderline unhealthy. I think you would be very surprised to find out what someone looks like with 8%. When we take measurements, 8% is well into the 90th percentile.

Rajah Brown
06-03-2008, 04:14 PM
Ya, other than a measly 40-50 lb difference, EJ and Barkley
at that age are almost identical ! Croz24, it's obvious you
don't care for Gordon's NBA prospects, but you shoulda
quit when you were ahead.

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:19 PM
the difference is gordon plays as an undersized sg where his athleticism is all he has. barkley, even after gaining weight throughout his career, played as an undersized pf, a position he could afford to lose much of that athleticism and still sustain as a player. gordon while athletic, will be relatively average as a sg athletically on the nba level. that dip in ahtleticism due to weight gain for an undersized sg is much different than for an undersized pf.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 04:21 PM
Guys, I'm almost positive the heights listed on TV, the networks, NBA.com, etc. are their heights WITH shoes.

Case in point, I looked up Danny Granger's heights from 2005.
On NBA.com he's listed as 6'8.
He measured without shoes as 6'7.5", with shoes 6'8.5".
Ike Diogu measured 6'6.6" / 6'8" and on NBA.com is 6'8".
Ray Allen, 6'4" / 6'5", he's listed as 6'5" on NBA.com.
Gilber Arenas, 6'2.25" / 6'3.25, he's listed as 6'4" on NBA.com.

When Eric Gordon is on NBA.com next season, he will be listed as either 6'3" or 6'4".

Hicks
06-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Of course, I went back to '05. Joey Graham benched 26 times, to Danny's 10.

[edit] Ike did 21.

Yeah, this bench press stat is worthless.

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Ya, other than a measly 40-50 lb difference, EJ and Barkley
at that age are almost identical ! Croz24, it's obvious you
don't care for Gordon's NBA prospects, but you shoulda
quit when you were ahead.

quit while i was ahead? didn't know i was in an argument...was giving some insight into some of the off-court issues gordon's been dealing with for years to try to help us gauge what type of player gordon will become. thought that was the point of evaluating and discussing prospects?

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:33 PM
I cannot tell you enough how much I disagree with the thought that height on the perimeter is more important than height in the post.

A 6'4" on the wing is at disadvantage shooting over a player 2 inches taller, there is more seperation to get a shot off.

A player defending on the perimeter is in a defensive stance, shortening his height well over 2 inches. Also, you have the ability to perform a dribbling move to gain space to get your shot off.

As you get closer to the basket, the space in between a defender and the offensive player shrinks, because the court shrinks. It's harder to beat someone off the dribble 5ft. from the basket than it is 19ft.

Because of that the defenders are actually able to stand up more, giving them more height. When you watch defenders in the post, they're almost standing upright and usually have a hand raised and in position to alter a shot.

When defending on the wing, players don't usually try and block a shot. The defenders hand goes normally to the face trying to block their view.

I could keep going on with a couple more points, but I think I've made my case.

Being undersized in the post is at a much much bigger disadvantage than being undersized on perimeter.

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:43 PM
this started with me talking about ATHLETICISM, not height...gordon is an undersized 2 as is. he loses the speed, quickness, and jumping ability he has now due to such weight gains, he doesn't stand much of a chance. a pf who loses such athleticism can then rely on stregth and body positioning as quickness is more of an added bonus for a pf, while for a sg quickness is a necessity...

Slick Pinkham
06-03-2008, 04:44 PM
quit while i was ahead? didn't know i was in an argument...was giving some insight into some of the off-court issues gordon's been dealing with for years to try to help us gauge what type of player gordon will become. thought that was the point of evaluating and discussing prospects?

The implication that Chuck was "athletic in his early years, fat later on" is off base.

He was downright fat in college ("the round mound of rebound" was a COLLEGE nickname), a little chunky as a rookie, then kicked it into gear was was reasonably in shape for all of his prime. Barkley overcame his weight issues in the NBA.

He was fat early on, got serious, then ballooned up only in the last year or so before retirement, and then BIG TIME after retirement.

Rajah Brown
06-03-2008, 04:51 PM
Croz24-

I understand where you're coming from. But you're observation is
based on the assumption that EJ as an adult will have the same
weight issues (that I don't recall seeing during his HS career, but
you apparently did) he had as a teenager. He might and he might
not. He'll certainly have professional training and dietary assistance
available that he didn't have at North Central.

Of course, it's a moot point as he'll be gone prior to #11 anyway.

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Just like your recent response. Isn't the process about talking over a player's downsides and upsides?

Gordon's height is a sticking point to some, athleticism is his ticket to overcome to some.

My point is that you don't have to be off the charts atheleticly to overcome height issues on the perimeter.

You bring these points up to get your point across. I'm responding to the direction that you're taking it.

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:57 PM
The implication that Chuck was "athletic in his early years, fat later on" is off base.

He was downright fat in college ("the round mound of rebound" was a COLLEGE nickname), a little chunky as a rookie, then kicked it into gear was was reasonably in shape for all of his prime. Barkley overcame his weight issues in the NBA.

He was fat early on, got serious, then ballooned up only in the last year or so before retirement, and then BIG TIME after retirement.

ugh. this is becoming very frustrating. i have some insight about gordon's off court habits and off-season weight gains. i provide that and use a player who was very similar in body type and suddenly it's croz24 vs pacers digest all over again...barkley "later on" meaning the later stages of his career did get chubby and was only sustained a solid body for a few years. you yourself admitted that. but barkley also had more competitive spirit than gordon has ever displayed. so can we really trust that gordon will constantly work and improve on such issues? that's a question we'd have to ask ourselves if we consider drafting gordon.

croz24
06-03-2008, 04:58 PM
it's a question i'm bringing up, not an assertion that that's how it's going to be...gordon's height does not concern me IF he can sustain his athleticism. but even in college he rarely could create seperation between he and his man. gordon's success will depend on how much he wants it. his iq will only improve as he ages, but will he develop his handles? will he learn to control himself driving the lane? will he cut down on his turnovers and mental mistakes? will he maintain or improve his athleticism? will he ever show intensity or passion for the game?

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:59 PM
Croz24-

I understand where you're coming from. But you're observation is
based on the assumption that EJ as an adult will have the same
weight issues (that I don't recall seeing during his HS career, but
you apparently did) he had as a teenager. He might and he might
not. He'll certainly have professional training and dietary assistance
available that he didn't have at North Central.

Of course, it's a moot point as he'll be gone prior to #11 anyway.

The assumption that he even has weight issues is premature to begin with.

Saying someone is dealing with weight issues, because they are at 8% body fat, is just completely wrong. It shows the lack of understanding what those numbers mean, how they're found, and what affect it has on people.

Lester Hudson having 3.7% is actually dangerous. His body can have complications from not having enough. It affects your body's ability to produce hormones, among other things.

I would be willing to bet that most male athletes fall anywhere from 6-12%. You have to get all the way to 25% is the cutoff to be considered obese.

Last time I had mine checked I came in at 13%, and I was playing ball 4-5 times a week and lifting.

Coop
06-03-2008, 06:41 PM
it's a question i'm bringing up, not an assertion that that's how it's going to be...gordon's height does not concern me IF he can sustain his athleticism. but even in college he rarely could create seperation between he and his man. gordon's success will depend on how much he wants it. his iq will only improve as he ages, but will he develop his handles? will he learn to control himself driving the lane? will he cut down on his turnovers and mental mistakes? will he maintain or improve his athleticism? will he ever show intensity or passion for the game?

Jesus. If I took every player that came in at 8% or higher body fat in the combine and assumed they would be fat later in their career, I would make one terrible GM. I think we need to move past the supposed weight problems. Maybe he did gain weight during the summer in high school. Who cares? I would bet a lot of money that he will be receiving better training and a more healthy diet in the pros.

Also, why do you keep saying he wasn't able to get seperation in college? Wasn't he 2nd in the NCAA in FTA per game (behind Hansbrough)? That would seem to indicate that he is getting seperation and his defenders are having to foul him to keep up.

rexnom
06-03-2008, 06:53 PM
I think any GM that lets any of these results majorly affect his decision-making is an idiot.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2008, 06:59 PM
Yeah, this bench press stat is worthless.

Yup - if you were doing a lift that mattered it would be squats. But someone might bust a nut.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2008, 07:03 PM
I think any GM that lets any of these results majorly affect his decision-making is an idiot.

A lot of them are - they seem to think athleticism is more important than basketball skills. It may have some value for the freshmen like Jordan and Randolph - guys who will be projects. But for players who were played a bunch of games in college, these should be used as tiebreakers at most.

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 07:22 PM
8% body fat is pretty damn good.

When I was a workout fanatic (not married) running between 6 to 12 miles a day. Lifting hard 5 days a week, I was 8% body fat.

I averaged 5:30 on my 5K's and about 6:15 on my 10K's.

It was nothing for me to run a 10K before work go to work (I am a exterior electrician so I wasn't sitting all day) when I would get of work I would go lift, do 2 separate aerobic classes and do 30 minutes on the elliptical.

I mantained an average body weight of about 205. My point is you can work out like an anamal and be 8% body fat.

I was at a 10K when I had 3 different doctors check me and my legs where so lean that they where having a hard time getting a reading on me.

Below 5% and the doctors start to worry.

JayRedd
06-03-2008, 07:41 PM
The implication that Chuck was "athletic in his early years, fat later on" is off base.

He was downright fat in college ("the round mound of rebound" was a COLLEGE nickname), a little chunky as a rookie, then kicked it into gear was was reasonably in shape for all of his prime. Barkley overcame his weight issues in the NBA.

He was fat early on, got serious, then ballooned up only in the last year or so before retirement, and then BIG TIME after retirement.

Obese or anorexic, Charles Barkley was a phenomonal athlete.

Will Galen
06-03-2008, 07:52 PM
Here's a graph I made up with some players most of us are interested in. Makes for easier comparison.

<table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="1021"><tbody><tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Name
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">wo-shoes,
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">Shoes
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">Weight
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%"> Span
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">Reach
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%"> B. Fat
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">No Step V.
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">Max V
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">B. Press
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">Lane
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3/4 C. Sprint
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">Rank
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">Drafted
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">LaMarcus Aldridge - 2006
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">234
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">8.7
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">26.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">8
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.02
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.43
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">68
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">2
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Joe Alexander - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">220
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">5.8
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">32.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">38.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">24
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.33
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">2.99
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Carmelo Anthony - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">233
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.40
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">3
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Gilbert Arenas - 2001
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">199
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">30
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">DJ Augustin - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">172
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 10.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">8.1
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">28.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">2
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.27
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.07
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Jerryd Bayless - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">204
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.7
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">31.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">38.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.26
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.07
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Michael Beasley - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">239
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">7.7
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">30.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">19
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.06
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.24
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Andrew Bogut - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">251
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">13
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.06
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.51
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">60
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">1
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Chris Bosh - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">225
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">9
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.80
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.30
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">4
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">* Andew Bynum - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">NA' NA"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">33.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">37.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">10
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Mike Conley Jr - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 0.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">175
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 5.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 10.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.2
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">35.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">40.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">13
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.63
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.09
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">4
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">4
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Travis Diener - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">165
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">38
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Ike Diogu - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">255
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">31.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">21
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.94
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.45
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">39
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">9
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Joey Dorsey - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">265
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 1.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">9.0
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">27.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">19
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.84
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.20
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Mike Dunleavy - 2002
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">230
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">3
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Kevin Durant - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">215
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">6.6
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">26.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.33
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.45
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">78
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">2
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Monta Ellis - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">177
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">31.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.13
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.31
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">70
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">40
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Rudy Fernandez - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">172
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 5.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.48
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.33
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">56
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">24
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">T.J. Ford - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 0.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">162
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">39.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.45
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.20
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">8
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Ben Gordon - 2004
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">192
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">37.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">12
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.28
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">3
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Eric Gordon - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">222
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">8.2
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">32.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">40.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">15
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.81
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.01
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Joey Graham - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 5.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">217
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">36.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">26
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.62
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.05
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">1
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">16
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Danny Granger - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">225
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 1.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 7"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.84
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.34
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">31
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">17
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Gerald Green - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">192
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">39.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.20
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.21
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">24
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">18
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">George Hill - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">181
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 1.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">3.0
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">37.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">9
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.20
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.07
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Kirk Hinrich - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">186
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.98
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.10
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">7
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Lester Hudson - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">196
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">3.4
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">30.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">36.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">12
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.15
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.16
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Jarrett Jack - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">198
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">28.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">5
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.87
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.24
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">54
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">22
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">LeBron James - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">245
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 10.25"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">1
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Al Jefferson - 2004
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">263
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">30.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">3
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">13.08
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">15
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Frederick Jones - 2002
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">218
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">14
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">DeAndre Jordan - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">250
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 5.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">7.5
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">26.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">30.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">8
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.30
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.27
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Acie Law - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">186
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">5.6
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">29.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">8
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.22
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">32
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">11
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Shaun Livingston - 2004
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">186
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">30.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.72
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">4
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Brook Lopez - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">256
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 5.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">6.3
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">27.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">30.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.77
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.57
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Kevin Love - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">255
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">12.9
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">29.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">18
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.17
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.22
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">O.J. Mayo - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">200
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">6.3
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">30.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">41.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.04
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.14
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">JaVale McGee - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">241
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 6.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">5.3
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">27.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">32.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.75
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.25
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Darko Milicic - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">250
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">32.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">13
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.30
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.36
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">2
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Joakim Noah - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">223
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 1.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 10.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.8
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">32.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">37.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">12
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.79
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.47
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">43
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">9
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Shaquille O'Neal - 1992
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">7' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">NA' NA"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">303
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 7"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">12.2
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">1
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Greg Oden - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">7' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">257
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">7.8
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">32.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.67
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.27
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">62
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">1
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Emeka Okafor - 2004
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">257
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">22
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">12.32
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">8
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">2
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Chris Paul - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">178
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">38.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.09
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.22
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">16
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">4
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Trent Plaisted - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">240
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 9.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">11.0
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">30.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">14
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.32
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.17
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Anthony Randolph - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">197
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 1"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.7
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">29.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">7
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.86
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.26
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Derrick Rose - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">196
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.6
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">34.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">40.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.69
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.05
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Brandon Roy - 2006
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 5.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">207
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">7.6
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">34.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">40.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">6
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.13
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.27
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">30
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">6
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Brandon Rush - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">211
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 11.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Kareem Rush - 2002
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 5.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">199
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 9.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">20
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Sean Singletary - 2007
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">180
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">3.7
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">17
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">80
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Sean Singletary - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">5' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 0"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">184
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">7' 11"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.2
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">26.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">18
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Amare Stoudemire - 2002
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">233
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 1.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 0.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">9
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Jamaal Tinsley - 2001
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 0.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">199
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 1.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">27
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Dwyane Wade - 2003
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 4.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">212
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 10.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 6"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">9
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.56
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.08
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">5
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Russell Westbrook - 2008
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">192
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.75"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">4.8
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">30.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">36.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">12
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.98
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.08
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Shawne Williams - 2006
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.25"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">227
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 3"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">8.0
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">32.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">31.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.69
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.30
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">57
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">17
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Shelden Williams - 2006
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7.5"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">258
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 8"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">11.4
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">29.0
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">33.5
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">25
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.53
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.59
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">31
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">5
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Marcus Williams - 2006
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 3.25"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">215
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 1.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">12.4
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">24.5
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">28.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">4
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">11.30
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.40
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">73
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">33
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Eric Williams - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 7"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 8.5"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">282
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">7' 4"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">9' 0.5"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">No
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table1column1" valign="top" width="15%">Deron Williams - 2005
</td> <td class="table1column2" valign="top" width="7%">6' 1.75"
</td> <td class="table1column3" valign="top" width="7%">6' 2.75"
</td> <td class="table1column4" valign="top" width="7%">202
</td> <td class="table1column5" valign="top" width="7%">6' 6.25"
</td> <td class="table1column6" valign="top" width="7%">8' 2"
</td> <td class="table1column7" valign="top" width="6%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column8" valign="top" width="7%">NA
</td> <td class="table1column9" valign="top" width="7%">35.0
</td> <td class="table1column10" valign="top" width="7%">15
</td> <td class="table1column11" valign="top" width="5%">10.83
</td> <td class="table1column12" valign="top" width="8%">3.25
</td> <td class="table1column13" valign="top" width="7%">10
</td> <td class="table1column14" valign="top" width="3%">3
</td></tr></tbody></table>

btowncolt
06-03-2008, 08:25 PM
Good work, Will. Thanks!

Los Angeles
06-03-2008, 08:31 PM
HOly Moly - Good work.

rexnom
06-03-2008, 08:36 PM
I'm surprised by Brandon Roy. He is a legit 6'6" in shoes and has a decent vert. So it's not like he was a "he plays write but no athletic potential" kind of guy. Same with Danny, of course. GMs just overthink it sometimes.

croz24
06-03-2008, 11:21 PM
i don't think i made it clear enough. every year since ej was a high school freshman, in the offseason he has been known to put on 10-20lbs of fat. even this past year at iu he admitted such in talking about the transition between college and high school and the difficulties in him not being able to enjoy his old eating habits. ej's offseason work ethic has always been a question mark of his. i'm not saying that's how he's going to be in the pros, but that's how he's always been and you can't overlook that imo.

Trader Joe
06-03-2008, 11:36 PM
I'm not sure how anyone can say Gordon is an average athlete in the NBA. If he is an average athlete then according to these numbers so is Derrick Rose.

EDIT:
Also I agree with croz24 in theory that the biggest question mark about Gordon maybe his training habits. Gordon is a naturally gifted athlete so I can see where high school Gordon may have been a bit lazy. However, I also know for a fact that I saw Gordon running with a trainer on third street everyday that was weather permitting after the season was over, and most of the time he was pouring sweat. I'd be shocked if he suddenly ballooned up in the NBA, not with all the resources available to him.

FinPacers
06-04-2008, 03:59 AM
I just hate this constant uncertainty regarding basketball players' two different reported heights, "with or without" shoes.

I mean, wouldn't it be undisputably reliable always measure people without shoes (bare foot only)? This way one cannot boost reported height with shoes adding 1/2 to 1 1/2 inches, or whatever unaccurate and variable that addition might be in given case.

Therefore, to be equal, there is no better way than measuring players' bare foot heights only. This way nobody will ever confuse these two heights anymore. It should be fair and simple to everyone.

I would also advice the NBA officially to measure players' heights every year - or at least every players' heights yearly as long as they are less than... say... 22 years of age.

This way we would have trustworthy height measurement results and - this is very crucial - no more argumentation, speculation or rumors concerning this height issue.

d_c
06-04-2008, 04:44 AM
I just hate this constant uncertainty regarding basketball players' two different reported heights, "with or without" shoes.

I mean, wouldn't it be undisputably reliable always measure people without shoes (bare foot only)? This way one cannot boost reported height with shoes adding 1/2 to 1 1/2 inches, or whatever unaccurate and variable that addition might be in given case.

Therefore, to be equal, there is no better way than measuring players' bare foot heights only. This way nobody will ever confuse these two heights anymore. It should be fair and simple to everyone.

I would also advice the NBA officially to measure players' heights every year - or at least every players' heights yearly as long as they are less than... say... 22 years of age.

This way we would have trustworthy height measurement results and - this is very crucial - no more argumentation, speculation or rumors concerning this height issue.

I completely agree on this height issue. It gets ridiculously exaggerated by player and teams sometimes. Rule of thumb is to not put all your faith all the time in "listed" heights when comparing a couple players.

That said, I don't think the NBA cares what heights players are listed at, whether they are with/without shoes or exaggerated or not. It's not worth anyone's time to have players measured every year. At the end of the day, you can use your own set of eyes to see how tall a player is.

But I agree, it gets ridiculous. When a guy like Justin Williams gets "listed" on NBA.com at 6'10"
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/justin_williams/

but in actuality measures out at 6'7.25"
http://www.nbadraft.net/2006campmeasurements001.asp

and that's when it just becomes comical. Justin Williams and 6'10" should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

And you just can't compare "listed" heights anymore because some players exaggerate more than others.

For example, you get a guy like Brandan Wright who measures w/o shoes at 6'8.75" and then he gets rounded up to 6'9" (that's what NBA.com lists him as) and that's pretty reasonable. He got rounded up .25" inches.

Then you get alleged 6'9" Joey Dorsey who measured out at 6'6.25". Obviously Brandan Wright's 6'9" and Joey Dorsey's 6'9" are two completely different things. Two guys who are "listed" at the same height are acutally off by 2.5" inches.

LOL. That's exactly why you can't take listed heights seriously.

count55
06-04-2008, 08:10 AM
BTW...this Jonathan Givony article (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/But-Can-He-Play-Analyzing-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Combine-Results-2096/) from Draft Express has some interesting historical perspective on how much weight to put to metrics.


Who was the top athlete in the 2003 draft? Thinking logically about that draft, you’d probably assume it was a toss up between Dwyane Wade and Lebron James. But in fact, it was 6-2 shooting guard Troy Bell, who did not make it past his rookie contract before being cut by the man who reached badly to draft him in Jerry West. Bell was affectionately nicknamed “Troy Airbell” by ACB Spanish league fans he horrified with the air-balls he jacked up playing for Real Madrid, and struggled this past season to run a D-League team. Bell measured a 41 inch vertical leap (which would rank 1st in this year’s combine), ran a 3.06 in the ¾ court sprint (also 1st), and bench pressed the 185 pound bar 17 times (fourth amongst guards). If Bell were eligible this year, he most likely again would be deemed the top athlete in this year’s draft too.

Who was (supposedly) the 2nd best athlete in that draft? Brandon Hunter, an eventual late 2nd round pick who was relegated to the 2nd division in Italy this year playing for Livorno. Dwyane Wade, possibly the best overall athlete in the NBA today, ranked 14th. Chris Bosh finished 51st. Chris Kaman 45th. In that same year, TJ Ford measured in as being slower in the various footspeed tests than Chris Kaman, Kirk Penney and Carmelo Anthony. Huh? Anyone that has ever seen him play would tell you that he is one of the fastest players in the NBA, if not the fastest.

Not saying that it's the end-all, be-all, but it's worth a read for a cautionary POV.

He also has some comments in his blog (http://http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/) on his interpretation of the results.

If these have been previously posted, I didn't see them, and apologize for the duplication.