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View Full Version : Flip Saunders is out..



efx
06-03-2008, 11:20 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AgveOZUCyiYHXjvBzsQeHW05nYcB?slug=ap-pistons-saunders&prov=ap&type=lgns

According to the above article. Expected or no? It surprised me a little bit tbh. Always liked the guy.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2008, 11:21 AM
Absolutely expected. He wasn't as good as either of their last 2 coaches.

Unclebuck
06-03-2008, 11:23 AM
Totally expected, a little surprised he wasn't canned a year ago. Didn't seem like the Piston players respected him

Flip is a good coach - but he isn't anything special. Rick and larry Brown are a lot better.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 12:07 PM
If that's true (he's not that great, doesn't get respect), then OK I guess, but otherwise I don't like how teams will fire a solid or better coach when they don't win a title.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2008, 12:26 PM
I agree Hicks. So Bryon Scott is dumped from NJ, goes on to win COY with NO. Rick is dumped after a huge turnaround in Detroit, going to the 2nd round (and winning COY) and then the ECF. D'Antoni is dumped, Flip is dumped.

Picture 1984, time to fire Pat Riley after that massive failure. WTF?

I don't care if fans don't have patience, if it's your team, your business, then you have to trust yourself and the experts you hired. You can't freak out over unrealistic expectations (title or nothing). Let the fans rot because winning will keep them around much better than losing with a new coach will, even if you keep coming up short.

Fool
06-03-2008, 12:29 PM
Of course you included Carlisle in that.

This firing is hardly a rash decision. He should have been gone after the meltdown last year.

Brian
06-03-2008, 12:33 PM
What are the odds that Avery Johnson is hired to replace?

pacerwaala
06-03-2008, 12:45 PM
Maybe the players have tuned him out and they were not going anywhere.

Also, it is expected from a franchise whose owner is a little trigger happy when it comes to coaches. It has worked for him since they have been a relatively successful franchise.

The new coach will be their 4th coach since 2002 and it is not like they have not made the playoffs all those years.

Kegboy
06-03-2008, 12:48 PM
Assistant coach Michael Curry appears to be the leading candidate to replace Saunders. Other possible candidates include Detroit assistant coach Terry Porter and former Dallas Mavericks (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/dal/;_ylt=AuXsCkgIWKst7JegVAgDaKGLvLYF) coach Avery Johnson.

So I guess Rick wasn't the only one Curry had pictures of.

Seriously, I'd hire Porter.

OakMoses
06-03-2008, 12:50 PM
Maybe Jerry Sloan and Greg Popavich should be fired too...

Young
06-03-2008, 12:55 PM
Seriously, I'd hire Porter.

I like Porter as well. I've also always thought Curry seemed like he could make a good coach someday. I still don't get why Porter and Dwyane Casey were fired from the Bucks and Timberwolves. I thought they did good jobs with the talent they had.

I mean it's not like the Pistons just got beat by a bad team. The Celtics had the best record in the league and were well within striking distance to win in the losses. Can Flip make the defensive stops? Can he score the big baskets?

I don't know I thought that Flip has done a pretty good job their in Detroit. I think they could use some player changes but really is Terry Porter or Michael Curry any better than Flip?

rexnom
06-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Guys, seriously are we comparing Flip to other coaches here? Detroit is a unique situation. They've had a roster good enough to win it for all of Flip's tenure. Not necessarily his fault but he just wasn't bringing enough to the table and changes needed to be made. Good decision, if not a tad late.

NuffSaid
06-03-2008, 01:27 PM
Of course you included Carlisle in that.

This firing is hardly a rash decision. He should have been gone after the meltdown last year.
What meltdown are you referring to exactly?

Michael Curry wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd be very surprised if he didn't at least give Avery an invite to interview.

As to Flip's firing, I half expected it. I mean, the Pistons are one of those teams that excel during the regular season and they do it based moreso on their raw talent. That's not a knock on them one bit, though. They truly are a very talented team. But...

As we all know the post-season is that "second-season" where unless you're able to make adjustments not only with each game but at various stages throughout each game you're not going very far. Flip couldn't get his team to make the adjustments. But was that because he can't coach his post-season teams very well or was it because this post-season team wasn't buying into what he was instructing them to do? In other words, was it the coach's fault or the players? The coach can teach and instruct, but it's up to the players to learn and execute.

Bball
06-03-2008, 01:38 PM
Didn't Larry Brown quit to take his "dream job" in New York or was he being forced out in the first place?

Also, was Carlisle really fired for not being liked by his players and having disagreements with management or because Larry Brown was available?

In any case, I always considered Flip Saunders an odd followup to those two coaches for the Pistons anyway. I don't think Flip was on that level and I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did. I like Dumars but in this case whatever he was going for didn't work as well as he had planned. These were wasted years for the Pistons.

As for canning him for falling short of the championship versus knighting him for just making waves in the playoffs- You don't win championships by setting your goals too low. The coach is an easy place to affix blame, and in this case I don't think it's all that questionable. Even if you tweaked the roster, Flip still wasn't going to get it done.

DisapointedPacerFan
06-03-2008, 01:57 PM
It's definately the right move for the Pistons. He couldn't lead a team of Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Wallace over that final 'hump' to the finals the past couple of years. This offseason is going to be interesting for the Pistons cause Rasheed is a FA after next season and Rip has a PO for the season after next, so he could be considered as an expiring. They have Prince and Billups locked up through 2011, so my guess is that they will look to build around them.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Wallace and/or Hamilton (more so Wallace) moved this off-season to obtain a younger PF/C or some draft picks. Stuckey and Maxiell both seem ready to contribute to this team, so they should consider throwing them into the starting lineup.

Cactus Jax
06-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Detroit needs for another Kevin Garnett, or Pau Gasol or other superstar player to be trade available, they have all the solid to very very good players that you can have, but they dont have that one player that you fear over all else.

Sheed is as good as gone, a couple possibilities would be either a sign and trade for Marion, or trading for Carmelo Anthony.

DisapointedPacerFan
06-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Nuggets have already said that they ain't tradin Melo, but I see Marion being more likely to happen. Shawn is gonna be involved in alot of trade rumors this summer, especially if Miami decides to go rebuild mode.

Arcadian
06-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Dumars deserves the most credit for their success. If he thinks it is time to switch coaches then I think you have to trust his judgement.

grace
06-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Michael Curry wouldn't be a bad choice.

If Curry gets hired that should really how Mark Jackson that if he really wants to be a head coach he needs to have a stint as an assistant coach.


Didn't Larry Brown quit to take his "dream job" in New York or was he being forced out in the first place?

Also, was Carlisle really fired for not being liked by his players and having disagreements with management or because Larry Brown was available?

I think the Pistons' management wasn't at all happy with the way Larry handled things after his hip surgery (at least that's the surgery I think he had). Now it's not Larry's fault that he had complications, but IMO he handled it all very badly. With his history of quitting on teams I think he kind of used his health as an excuse. Could be he knew the Knicks job was his for the asking and he knew he had to get out of Detroit first without it being obvious he quit on the team.

As for the Rick and Larry question I'd say the answer is yes to both parts.

I'd like to ask this year's Piston's team who they would have rather had as a coach Rick or Flip.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2008, 02:40 PM
IfI think the Pistons' management wasn't at all happy with the way Larry handled things after his hip surgery (at least that's the surgery I think he had). Now it's not Larry's fault that he had complications, but IMO he handled it all very badly. With his history of quitting on teams I think he kind of used his health as an excuse. Could be he knew the Knicks job was his for the asking and he knew he had to get out of Detroit first without it being obvious he quit on the team.


Plus Larry was doing his prima donna thing to the hilt and Davidson got sick of it. I'm not so sure there wasn't a little bit of a, "You're such a pain - you're not the only person who can coach this team."

Larry's always been a prima donna but my sense is he might have taken it to a new level, plus ownership just got fed up with it.

Shade
06-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Like I said the day that Detroit hired him, Flip will not win an NBA title in Motown. He got to the ECF a few times, which is exactly what I expected from him. He neither surpassed nor failed to meet my expectations.

Fool
06-03-2008, 03:17 PM
Brown openly courted the Cavalier GM job during the 05 playoffs. Regardless of how Davidson (Piston owner) felt about him prior, Dumars could not defend him after that.

The meltdown I was referring to was the four games straight the let the Lebrons walk all over them.

Mourning
06-03-2008, 03:18 PM
Never was a great fan of his coaching. "grey" would be the word I would associate with him mostly. I think they should have said there goodbyes last year with that playoff failure. I still don't get how they let LeBron beat them :dunno:.

Fool
06-03-2008, 03:27 PM
ESPN says Curry is the new coach.

Brian
06-03-2008, 03:28 PM
I was just watching espn news,and they had Rob Parker on,and he was saying that the pistons are really going to shake up the lineup.

He said that he doesnt expect Sheed to be back next season.
And that Rip or Billiups will be traded.


But even if they lose 2 outta the 3 of those guys Joe Dumars is one of the best,and he wont deal with having a losing team.

Brian
06-03-2008, 03:29 PM
Like I said the day that Detroit hired him, Flip will not win an NBA title in Motown. He got to the ECF a few times, which is exactly what I expected from him. He neither surpassed nor failed to meet my expectations.

Thats basically what Kstat said also.

Fool
06-03-2008, 03:40 PM
During the presser Dumars said he was looking to make significant changes to the core players.

He also mentioned talking to Rip and Tay about the decisions multiple times (for whatever that's worth).

Said everyone is "in play" in terms of who will go.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 04:26 PM
Detroit needs for another Kevin Garnett, or Pau Gasol or ...
... Jermaine O'Neal. :D

Hicks
06-03-2008, 04:28 PM
I was just watching espn news,and they had Rob Parker on,and he was saying that the pistons are really going to shake up the lineup.

He said that he doesnt expect Sheed to be back next season.
And that Rip or Billiups will be traded.


But even if they lose 2 outta the 3 of those guys Joe Dumars is one of the best,and he wont deal with having a losing team.


If that's true, they're really playing with fire. Now I grant you that it wouldn't be surprising for Dumars to put another team together of "who are they" 's like he did with these guys, but it's far from a guarantee, and this could blow up in his face.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 04:29 PM
If we can get JO to Detroit for even one of their starters, it's probably a win.

dohman
06-03-2008, 04:31 PM
I'd rather lose with the roster we have now then win with any one of the pistons on our team.

Thats just me though.

Fool
06-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Btw, Dumars' opinion on blowing up a team before rebuilding it.

"The idea you can make yourself bad and make yourself good again, that's a farce."

count55
06-03-2008, 04:42 PM
Btw, Dumars' opinion on blowing up a team before rebuilding it.

"The idea you can make yourself bad and make yourself good again, that's a farce."

I always knew I liked Joe Dumars.

maragin
06-03-2008, 04:49 PM
I'd rather lose with the roster we have now then win with any one of the pistons on our team.

Thats just me though.

Somewhere, Flip Murray is crying.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Btw, Dumars' opinion on blowing up a team before rebuilding it.

"The idea you can make yourself bad and make yourself good again, that's a farce."
And he's absolutely right. Tanking is for video games.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 04:53 PM
I'd rather lose with the roster we have now then win with any one of the pistons on our team.
Rip or Chauncey would be a big deal. Nobody else is worth much, except maybe in a 3-way twss.

pacerwaala
06-03-2008, 05:11 PM
Plus Larry was doing his prima donna thing to the hilt and Davidson got sick of it. I'm not so sure there wasn't a little bit of a, "You're such a pain - you're not the only person who can coach this team."

Larry's always been a prima donna but my sense is he might have taken it to a new level, plus ownership just got fed up with it.

He was the only one who got them to the finals twice and got them one championship.


Larry wanted to get hip surgery done and was not guaranteeing a comeback if something got complicated. The Pistons did not want that uncertainity in the coaching situation if something went bad with Larry's hip surgery. Larry's argument coming of a championship season was that if a player got injured, management would wait and do the necessary, why not for the coach.

Obviously, I do not know if this exactly what transpired behind the scenes but this is what I gathered (listening to Detroit sports radio, reading NBA rumours online).

Also, you have to look at Detroit fired Rick Carlisle.

Kstat
06-03-2008, 05:27 PM
Rip or Chauncey would be a big deal. Nobody else is worth much, except maybe in a 3-way twss.

A popular theory that's being thrown around is Sheed and Tayshaun for Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor.

Larry Brown is a Sheedaholic, and he and Okafor have a very negative history dating back to the 2004 olympics.

Basketball Fan
06-03-2008, 06:52 PM
J.O. in Detroit would be so weird if you factor in the brawl...

Kstat
06-03-2008, 06:56 PM
J.O. in Detroit would be so weird if you factor in the brawl...

Jackson and Artest are hated here. O'Neal, not so much.

Jermaine never went into the stands. He defended himself on the court, and I don't know any piston fans that blamed him for that.

Besides, O'Neal was also by far the most well-spoken and apologetic about the whole thing, and he had by far the least to apologize for.

I don't think he'd have any problems with the fans if he came here, so long as he played hard.

Mourning
06-03-2008, 07:54 PM
A popular theory that's being thrown around is Sheed and Tayshaun for Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor.

That would be a rape IMO. Bobcats management would have to be shot by their fans on the spot if something like that happenned. I really, really like Prince, but Rasheed is getting old and I do not see this beying worth it for the Bobcats at all. Yeah, I know experience, etc. Still IMO not worth it.

Kstat
06-03-2008, 07:56 PM
That would be a rape IMO. Bobcats management would have to be shot by their fans on the spot if something like that happenned. I really, really like Prince, but Rasheed is getting old and I do not see this beying worth it for the Bobcats at all. Yeah, I know experience, etc. Still IMO not worth it.

Larry Brown loves Sheed to death and is not fond at all of Okafor. That's all you need to know.

I recall the raptors dealing Marcus Camby 10 years ago for Charles Oakley, and the Celtics dealing Chauncey Billups for Kenny Anderson. There's precedent for this.

spreedom
06-03-2008, 08:22 PM
I still don't get why Porter and Dwyane Casey were fired from the Bucks and Timberwolves. I thought they did good jobs with the talent they had.


Casey getting fired was 100% political... he didn't have the same "vision" as the great Kevin McHale, so he got thrown out... Wittman is more of a stooge; he got the job so McHale can continue making poor roster decisions without getting any flak from his coach.

idioteque
06-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Of course you included Carlisle in that.

This firing is hardly a rash decision. He should have been gone after the meltdown last year.

Exactly, Saunders has a history of failing in the playoffs year after year, and the last two have been no exceptions. Detroit expected him to take his coaching to the next level as the Piston's coach. He failed, he's gone.

And Saunders is no Pops or Sloan.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 08:45 PM
The ECF 3 years in a row is failure now? Need I remind everyone just how rare and difficult getting to the NBA finals really is?

Sollozzo
06-03-2008, 09:42 PM
The ECF 3 years in a row is failure now? Need I remind everyone just how rare and difficult getting to the NBA finals really is?

Agreed, and the fact that Pacer fans are calling them "failures" is about the most ironic thing I've ever seen.

The Pistons losing three straight ECF's is a failure, yet the Pacers many Eastern Conference runs are treated as the gold standard of success around here. I find that so funny.

Pistons winning a title, losing in the finals once, and losing four ECF's is a failure, yet the Pacers losing in the finals once and the ECF's four times is the gold standard around here that evokes many nostalgic memories around here.

Pacer fans have no right to criticize the Pistons, especially how we reflect on a period in our organization (94-00) in which we accomplished less than the Pistons did from 03-08.

Shade
06-03-2008, 09:45 PM
Btw, Dumars' opinion on blowing up a team before rebuilding it.

"The idea you can make yourself bad and make yourself good again, that's a farce."

What if you're already bad to start with?

Shade
06-03-2008, 09:46 PM
The ECF 3 years in a row is failure now? Need I remind everyone just how rare and difficult getting to the NBA finals really is?

According to many Pistons fans, it is a failure.

Apparently, it's a failure to Dumars too, or he would have retained Flip.

Honestly, anything short of winning a championship is a failure of some magnitude.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 10:15 PM
According to many Pistons fans, it is a failure.

Apparently, it's a failure to Dumars too, or he would have retained Flip.

Honestly, anything short of winning a championship is a failure of some magnitude.

I'd call it unsatisfying LONG before I'd call it failure.

BlueNGold
06-03-2008, 10:28 PM
Jackson and Artest are hated here. O'Neal, not so much.

Jermaine never went into the stands. He defended himself on the court, and I don't know any piston fans that blamed him for that.

Besides, O'Neal was also by far the most well-spoken and apologetic about the whole thing, and he had by far the least to apologize for.

I don't think he'd have any problems with the fans if he came here, so long as he played hard.

Ah, something we have in common. I just wonder who hates them more.

As for JO, I was perturbed that he even received a suspension. Could you imagine how scary it was to be on the floor with fans streaming down, some throwing objects in that fracus. JO cannot be blamed at all for clocking that guy.

...but you don't want JO, do you? If so, I would take Maxiell for him in a heartbeat...

pacerwaala
06-03-2008, 10:48 PM
A popular theory that's being thrown around is Sheed and Tayshaun for Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor.

Larry Brown is a Sheedaholic, and he and Okafor have a very negative history dating back to the 2004 olympics.

so would JRich play the SF? He does not have the size to play SF. It does not make sense for him to be a backup SG to Rip.

I don't think that this is that good a trade for Detroit. I think Charlotte would be a playoff team with the addition of TPrince and Rasheed.

Kstat
06-03-2008, 10:51 PM
J-Rich did play SF in Golden State.

madison
06-03-2008, 10:53 PM
Flip 'lost' his job when the Pistons failed to beat Cleveland a year ago. He had one year to redeem himself and didn't. That's why he's toast.

New subject. As to the idea of the Pacers trading JO to Detroit, it could happen. We need a 5 but he doesn't like to play the 5. We need a rebounder that can play more than 50 games. We also need a point guard. So, if the Pistons want to jitterbug, the Pacers just might be their dance partner. These are interesting times -- to say the least.

Young
06-03-2008, 10:58 PM
If the Pistons get Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor for Rasheed Wallace and Taysan Prince i'm gonna be pissed because that allows the Pistons to probably reach another 5 ECF in a row with the chance to win it all.

The only concern would be the defense between Rip and Richardson. Rip is a pretty solid defender but what about Richardson? Not so much. He would give them another 20 point scorer though.

Okafor could be the anchor of their defense then for 10 years.

Hicks
06-03-2008, 11:04 PM
I feel a lot better about our wing players having their way against Detroit if they're guarded by Richardson instead of Prince.

BlueNGold
06-03-2008, 11:04 PM
If the Pistons get Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor for Rasheed Wallace and Taysan Prince i'm gonna be pissed because that allows the Pistons to probably reach another 5 ECF in a row with the chance to win it all.

The only concern would be the defense between Rip and Richardson. Rip is a pretty solid defender but what about Richardson? Not so much. He would give them another 20 point scorer though.

Okafor could be the anchor of their defense then for 10 years.

Richardson would need to learn how to play defense. ...and Okafor is nowhere close to being as good as Sheed...especially on the perimeter where Okafor has no business. ...and what makes Detroit good is their defense and their length in particular. They lose on those fronts with that trade.

Shade
06-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Jackson and Artest are hated here.

What a coincidence; the same could be said about here.

Shade
06-04-2008, 01:45 PM
A popular theory that's being thrown around is Sheed and Tayshaun for Jason Richardson and Emeka Okafor.

Larry Brown is a Sheedaholic, and he and Okafor have a very negative history dating back to the 2004 olympics.

I'm not sure how the numbers pan out, but maybe we can work a three-way? The main players being Sheed to Charlotte, JO and Okafor to Detroit, and Rip here?

Fool
06-04-2008, 01:51 PM
JO, Okafor, Max, and Amir, is an impressive frontline rotation.

Unclebuck
06-04-2008, 02:36 PM
I contend that Prince is the type of player you really don't realize his full value until he's gone. Sure he didn't shoot well in this past series, but if he is traded and Sheed - there goes the Pistons defense. I'll be happy

Kstat
06-04-2008, 02:38 PM
I'm not sure how the numbers pan out, but maybe we can work a three-way? The main players being Sheed to Charlotte, JO and Okafor to Detroit, and Rip here?

We'd need to get Jason Richardson or Mike Dunleavy somehow.

Joe wouldn't let Rip go without getting a SG in return.

duke dynamite
06-05-2008, 02:46 AM
Could this be the shake-up that ultimately determines the outcome of the Central Division for years to come?

count55
06-05-2008, 08:17 AM
We'd need to get Jason Richardson or Mike Dunleavy somehow.

Joe wouldn't let Rip go without getting a SG in return.

I'd be pleased with Rip over Junior. I just don't know how the rest of the deal would have to be structured to get it done. (RE: JO, etc.)

Gyron
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
It would be funny to see the pictons get both Okafor and JO on the same team. Then they could have Tandem IR entries all the time.

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2008, 03:28 PM
And he's absolutely right. Tanking is for video games.
So is getting the computer to trade you Gasol for your garbage.
DOH!

Kstat
06-05-2008, 03:35 PM
Next hot rumor, according to Chad Ford...

Chauncey Billups and the #29 pick to Miami for the #2 pick, Marcus Banks and Mark Blount, if Chicago takes Derrick Rose #1 overall.

Stuckey and Michael Beasley? Mmmmmm.....

d_c
06-05-2008, 03:44 PM
Next hot rumor, according to Chad Ford...

Chauncey to Miami for the #2 pick, if Chicago takes Derrick Rose #1 overall.

Stuckey and Michael Beasley? Mmmmmm.....

LOL @ Chad Ford. Seriously, it's getting to be too much.

Can't wait for this draft to be over so he can finally stop churning out horrible rumors like this.

Shade
06-05-2008, 03:47 PM
It would be funny to see the pictons get both Okafor and JO on the same team. Then they could have Tandem IR entries all the time.

Once players go the Pistons, they seem to stay relatively healed somehow. Must be magic.

Shade
06-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Next hot rumor, according to Chad Ford...

Chauncey Billups and the #29 pick to Miami for the #2 pick, Marcus Banks and Mark Blount, if Chicago takes Derrick Rose #1 overall.

Stuckey and Michael Beasley? Mmmmmm.....

:rotflmao: :lol:

Chad Ford is officially a crackhead.

Kstat
06-05-2008, 03:53 PM
Once players go the Pistons, they seem to stay relatively healed somehow. Must be magic.

We employ a witch doctor. I'm not kidding when I say that.

Shade
06-05-2008, 04:04 PM
We employ a witch doctor. I'm not kidding when I say that.

And I completely believe it. It's the only somewhat-sane explanation.

On the Flip side (get it? Flip? Hahaha...cough...um...yeah), we simply employ a witch. A bunch of them, actually.

Hicks
06-05-2008, 05:31 PM
We employ a witch doctor. I'm not kidding when I say that.

Who's the Witch Doctor?

Kstat
06-05-2008, 05:52 PM
Who's the Witch Doctor?

Arnie Kander.

He's the only strength and conditioning coach in the NBA that utilizes magic potions and 2,000 year old remedies such as chewing tree bark. I think his medical degree is just for show, because nothing he does is taught anywhere civilized.

Fool
06-05-2008, 06:02 PM
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/03/arnie-kander-180.jpg

Hicks
06-05-2008, 07:15 PM
Yeah, that's who I thought you meant. He told me he used "alternative medicine", but he never referred to "magic potions" :laugh:

Shade
06-05-2008, 07:53 PM
Yeah, that's who I thought you meant. He told me he used "alternative medicine", but he never referred to "magic potions" :laugh:


Once players go the Pistons, they seem to stay relatively healed somehow. Must be magic.

I knew it!

grace
06-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Once players go the Pistons, they seem to stay relatively healed somehow. Must be magic.

Nope, it's the Vernors. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/216YJAN364L._SS160_.jpg

madison
06-06-2008, 08:53 PM
Vernors rocks! But, it's no Dr. Pepper. Now there's a health drink. Dr. P will cure just about anything.