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OakMoses
06-02-2008, 05:13 PM
82games.com has their taking charges stats up for this season. It's somewhat interesting.

Jermaine is 7th on the list despite missing quite a few games. Dunleavy is tied for 8th. I think it's safe to say that JO would have led the league had he played the whole season.

Another interesting name to note is Kyle Lowry being #4.

Here's the link: http://www.82games.com/FSORT10.HTM

Putnam
06-02-2008, 06:20 PM
http://www.82games.com/charges0607.htm



Now there was a bit of a rancor about flopping finding its way into the NBA storylines during the second half of the season and we often get requests for "flop" stats. Certainly some of the players represented here are, ahem, guilty of a little acting now and then, and do sometimes choose the "fall to the ground" defense over trying to actually contest a shot. Still, let's not fault the masters of the trade for being successful. There may be some anti-flop rule changes coming however...


They called it, more than a year ago!


I'm equivocal about taking charges. Yes, it shows the player is willing to take a hit for the team and I like that. But, apart from the quickness required to get in position before the offensive player gets there, taking a charge requires no skill and exemplifies no grace. Unlike a football tackle (a thing of predatory beauty) taking a charge in basketball just brings the "problems" of the game to the forefront.

As far as JO goes, I hope he keeps it up. If blocking shots and taking charges is what he's got left, then I salute him for giving his best -- and I hope we get $21 million worth.

Taterhead
06-02-2008, 07:38 PM
http://www.82games.com/charges0607.htm

Unlike a football tackle (a thing of predatory beauty) taking a charge in basketball just brings the "problems" of the game to the forefront.


I disagree, to me a charge shows everything that should be great about the game (physical play, intelligence, will to win, putting your body on the line, etc.). And it does take skill. Toughness is a skill, not everyone has it. Timing is also a skill. Getting out of the way and conseding two points takes no skill, I could do that with the best of them.

Most charges wipe away easy lay-ups. It's as good as a blocked shot or a steal. I think the problems with the game are the severe lack of effort that you see every night. These guys don't really play until the playoffs.

All this being said I commend JO for that, it's very impressive. And this is why when he's healthy he is a defensive beast. I've always thought he was probably the best all around defensive big man in the league. He blocks shots, takes charges, defends the pick and roll exceptionally, and plays good position post defense to boot. All these people wanting to give him away are nuts, IMO.

Putnam
06-02-2008, 08:21 PM
to me a charge shows everything that should be great about the game.


Here's 10 things better than Troy Murphy getting knocked on his butt.


l5BxF2RJ7Xk&feature=related

Anthem
06-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Jermaine is 7th on the list despite missing quite a few games. I think it's safe to say that JO would have led the league had he played the whole season.
That's amazing. I thought Jermaine was a selfish player only concerned with stats! Why is he sacrificing his body for a defensive play that doesn't show up in the box score or on Sportcenter?

EDIT: I have a theory, but some people won't like it.

Justin Tyme
06-02-2008, 08:40 PM
That's amazing. I thought Jermaine was a selfish player only concerned with stats! Why is he sacrificing his body for a defensive play that doesn't show up in the box score or on Sportcenter?

EDIT: I have a theory, but some people won't like it.


I'd like to hear it, so what is it?

317Kim
06-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Jermaine was 7th? On one hand, I'm not surprised because he did draw quite a few charges when he played, but he missed around 39 or 40 games. Impressive.

I'd like to hear it as well, Anthem.

Kegboy
06-02-2008, 11:11 PM
That's amazing. I thought Jermaine was a selfish player only concerned with stats! Why is he sacrificing his body for a defensive play that doesn't show up in the box score or on Sportcenter?

EDIT: I have a theory, but some people won't like it.

I don't know, when guys blow by our backcourt so fast, they're bound to run into our front court players a fair amount. Even when they're standing still.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2008, 01:29 AM
I disagree, to me a charge shows everything that should be great about the game
I'm with you. Where I disagree with Putty is that to me a charge is part of the SPACING game, and that's the core of great basketball. A great PG keeps his dribble, moves the ball to a better space on the floor to make things available. A strong big gets and holds position. A strong defender denies position.

A great way to keep from getting the charge call is to hold that guy (say JO) away from the lane with a true post threat that he can't afford to leave, paired with the threat of the pass to him from a decent PG.

Jax down the lane with Smits and Tony lingering meant you couldn't risk sliding off to help early enough for the charge call. That's just asking for a dunk or short jumper.

What JO shows is that you don't have the proper threat out there to keep him from moving to the driving lane early. He reads your game better than you are seeing it yourself, and that's how he wins.

SycamoreKen
06-03-2008, 01:33 AM
JO was also 7th in Defensive 3 seconds as well, followed my Foster and trailing Murphey. Maybe that was the reason he was in position to take them.

Putnam
06-03-2008, 07:37 AM
I'm with you. Where I disagree with Putty is that to me a charge is part of the SPACING game, and that's the core of great basketball. . . . He reads your game better than you are seeing it yourself, and that's how he wins.


You describe well the thing that aggrieves me. I don't deny that it works. I deny that it is beautiful.

pacergod2
06-03-2008, 09:03 AM
The problem with flopping is when you have a guy like Kurt Thomas (being the largest person on the court except when Shaq is out there) who has always been a good defender and a tough guy, flopping at the three point line when HE is setting a pick on a small guard. The officials give him the call three straight times in the same game. THAT my friends is the problem. He was flopping like a ***** (and I really like Kurt Thomas as a player). It isn't a guard flying to the rim with reckless abandonment and a big with position gets hit so hard he falls to the ground. I hope the league and players realize this with this new rule and we don't see more uncontested layups than we already see because players don't want to get suspended for trying to take a charge.

I am all for taking legit charges. I think the officials need to call offensive flopping as well. Like how Manu and Tony flop just about every time they touch the ball. This should be known as the "San Antonio Spurs Rule". They have been known as a very good defensive team, and they are. They use flopping to their advantage which complements their ability to play good team defense. Again, I agree with charges, but flopping (both offensively and defensively) needs to be addressed. And no I don't hate the Spurs. I hate the Lakers.

MillerTime
06-03-2008, 11:10 AM
i didnt know Dunleavy was up there. He has a high basketball IQ. Or he just too slow to get out of the way :D

Dece
06-03-2008, 02:30 PM
I don't really care for charges in a lot of situations. I don't like JO taking them. I don't really like any big man taking them.

You have these guys 6'10, 7', who are amazing athletes just standing in other people's way. This is wrong. Take an angle, jump, get high, and block the shot of the guy who's driving into the lane. Show us you are an athlete. I mean, why are you just standing in the way of the 6'5" guy that you outweigh by 60 pounds, block the shot!

I don't remember David Robinson taking charges and flopping. I don't remember Hakeem flopping. I don't remember Shaq flopping. No current big men defenders, JO and his charges taken included, can even sniff what these guys did on defense in their prime. Block the shots big guys.

count55
06-03-2008, 02:50 PM
I don't really care for charges in a lot of situations. I don't like JO taking them. I don't really like any big man taking them.

You have these guys 6'10, 7', who are amazing athletes just standing in other people's way. This is wrong. Take an angle, jump, get high, and block the shot of the guy who's driving into the lane. Show us you are an athlete. I mean, why are you just standing in the way of the 6'5" guy that you outweigh by 60 pounds, block the shot!

I don't remember David Robinson taking charges and flopping. I don't remember Hakeem flopping. I don't remember Shaq flopping. No current big men defenders, JO and his charges taken included, can even sniff what these guys did on defense in their prime. Block the shots big guys.

As far as I'm concerned, JO made an additional 45 defensive stops this year and 57 last year by drawing charges. Arguably, drawing the charge is more effective defensively than blocking a shot because it results in a change of possession 100% of the time, while blocked shots have no such guarantee.

On the whole, JO's averaged 2.4 blocks and 0.9 charges drawn over the past two seasons. To me, this demonstrates that, in addition to good shot blocking skills and timing, he also has the sense, intelligence, and timing to understand (generally) when his best chance to make a stop is with a blocked shot vs. drawing a charge.

And, basically, it's making the stop that matters.

Wage
06-03-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't really care for charges in a lot of situations. I don't like JO taking them. I don't really like any big man taking them.

You have these guys 6'10, 7', who are amazing athletes just standing in other people's way. This is wrong. Take an angle, jump, get high, and block the shot of the guy who's driving into the lane. Show us you are an athlete. I mean, why are you just standing in the way of the 6'5" guy that you outweigh by 60 pounds, block the shot!

I don't remember David Robinson taking charges and flopping. I don't remember Hakeem flopping. I don't remember Shaq flopping. No current big men defenders, JO and his charges taken included, can even sniff what these guys did on defense in their prime. Block the shots big guys.

Because taking a charge is better than blocking a shot in pretty much every way.

Dece
06-03-2008, 04:04 PM
I just typed up a long reply but lost it to server busy. That's frustrating.

It's not necessarily better than making the block when you look at the whole picture, where's the stat that says how many blocking fouls were called on these guys. How many free throws they gave up. How many times it wasn't called and guys got an easy layup, or it was called a block for the and-1. The Pacers suffered a bad free throw deficit this season. Dunleavy and Oneal trying for so many charges is probably a part of that.

Also purely as someone who likes to watch basketball, I want to watch people make plays. I just don't view standing in someone's way as making a play. Good defense should never involve standing still not making a play on the ball. It just strikes me as against the spirit of the game for players to put the onus on the refs instead of making it happen themselves. It's a players league right, let's stop relying on the refs so much and PLAY.

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:09 PM
I just typed up a long reply but lost it to server busy. That's frustrating.

It's not necessarily better than making the block when you look at the whole picture, where's the stat that says how many blocking fouls were called on these guys. How many free throws they gave up. How many times it wasn't called and guys got an easy layup, or it was called a block for the and-1. The Pacers suffered a bad free throw deficit this season. Dunleavy and Oneal trying for so many charges is probably a part of that.

Also purely as someone who likes to watch basketball, I want to watch people make plays. I just don't view standing in someone's way as making a play. Good defense should never involve standing still not making a play on the ball. It just strikes me as against the spirit of the game for players to put the onus on the refs instead of making it happen themselves. It's a players league right, let's stop relying on the refs so much and PLAY.

Two can play that game.

Where's the stat that players get called for fouls trying to block a shot? How many times have they given up and-1s?

Taking a charge is simply better than blocking a shot.

When you take a charge, you end that offensive possession right there. When you block a shot the offense might recover, or the ball can go out of bounds. Either way, they retain possession of the ball and have the opportunity to score. Taking away the possession is extremely important.

Dece
06-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Even if it is better, and neither of us have numbers to prove it so it's pointless to argue, it doesn't change the fact that - at least to me - it's not a play on the ball, it's not defense, it's not fun to watch. It's nothing more than standing in someone's way.

Since86
06-03-2008, 04:47 PM
Well that's defense in general. Basic defensive fundamentals tell you to get the dribbler going lateral, and keep them from moving the ball horizontally.

The only time defense plays the ball is when attempting a steal or a block.

Defense is boring to most, but a thing of beauty to me.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 04:50 PM
It's nothing more than standing in someone's way.
That's what defense IS, man.

There's lots of layers to it, but at its essence defense is pretty simple. The core concept is that it's harder for your guy to score when you're between him and the basket.

Dece
06-03-2008, 05:21 PM
Former varsity basketball player on a team that finished second in state, I understand defense at least as well as anyone here, I don't need it explained to me.

I disagree that picking a spot, putting your hands in front of the jewels, and waiting for impact is good defense. It's certainly not a thing of beauty. Getting in front of your man and putting your hands in front of the ball and/or his face, but he runs you over still, yea, ok, good defense, but most charges in the NBA are not like this.

Bball
06-03-2008, 06:25 PM
Former varsity basketball player on a team that finished second in state,

Maybe if your team would've taken more charges then you could've finished 1st! ;)

Putnam
06-03-2008, 07:04 PM
I roll with Dece. (:shudder:I never thought I'd say that.)

He's made the point well -- especially about making the play rather than counting on the ref.

Let me just add this. Fifteen years ago, Greg Dreiling was a Pacer with not much ball skill. It was almost a joke then that Dreiling's game was mostly taking charges. It was funny.

Now we are seriously talking about a player who makes $21 million, and we're saying that he's a beast because of the way he stands still and gets knocked off his feet.

Sic transit gloria.

count55
06-03-2008, 08:50 PM
It's not about charges being better than blocks, or blocks being more exciting than charges.

The key is that there will be times that the smart defensive thing to do is to go for a block, while other times, drawing the charge is the best course of action. Both require the player to understand the situation, get in position, and make a play.

JO has averaged 2.4 blocks and 0.9 charges taken per game over the past two years. To me, this has shown his contribution as a help side defender and demonstrates good situational judgment. It does not make him a beast, and I'm not going to go looking for a poster of him getting bowled over. However, I am pleased to see that if he's not a position to get a block, he may be able to do something other than commit a stupid foul or watch the guy score.

Anthem
06-03-2008, 09:49 PM
Let me just add this. Fifteen years ago, Greg Dreiling was a Pacer
Great, now I feel old. I didn't realize I'd been a Pacer fan for that long.

Dece, I have no problem with you not liking the concept of charges. But for better or worse, the rules are what they are. And the rules say that if a player can get to a certain position and plant their feet, that anybody who runs inot them commits a foul. If that's the rule, then I want guys trying to draw charges. I wasn't in love with excessive handchecking, but if it's allowed then you need to do it. Did it make the game more beautiful? Nope. But neither is it beautiful watching your man blow by you.

Jermaine's not a good defensive player just because he draws charges. He blocks shots (protects the rim) and draws charges (protects the paint), and has learned how to defend his own man pretty well to boot. At worst, he's a solid defensive player. If his knee really is healed (and honestly I'm skeptical, but I'll wait to see), DPOY isn't a stretch this year.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 12:04 AM
I don't really care for charges in a lot of situations. I don't like JO taking them. I don't really like any big man taking them.

You have these guys 6'10, 7', who are amazing athletes just standing in other people's way. This is wrong. Take an angle, jump, get high, and block the shot of the guy who's driving into the lane. Show us you are an athlete. I mean, why are you just standing in the way of the 6'5" guy that you outweigh by 60 pounds, block the shot!

I don't remember David Robinson taking charges and flopping. I don't remember Hakeem flopping. I don't remember Shaq flopping. No current big men defenders, JO and his charges taken included, can even sniff what these guys did on defense in their prime. Block the shots big guys.

I still don't understand why you think it's any better?

The truth is it's absolutely not. Taking a charge, as noted before, is a stop every single time. A block is not. It is definately more appealing to see a guy block a dunk attempt no doubt, but it's at best equal in results to a charge taken. However, about 50% of the time it doesn't even result in a stop.

As for your arguement that Robinson and Hakeem didn't take charges, I disagree. They took plenty, and they blocked shots as well. Shaq doesn't, probably because it wouldn't look too convincing if some guard bowled him over. Also, there are plenty of big men who are just as good as Hakeem and Robinson on defense playing right now IMO. Duncan, Garnett, Camby, and a healthy JO top the list.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 12:10 AM
I roll with Dece. (:shudder:I never thought I'd say that.)

He's made the point well -- especially about making the play rather than counting on the ref.

Let me just add this. Fifteen years ago, Greg Dreiling was a Pacer with not much ball skill. It was almost a joke then that Dreiling's game was mostly taking charges. It was funny.

Now we are seriously talking about a player who makes $21 million, and we're saying that he's a beast because of the way he stands still and gets knocked off his feet.

Sic transit gloria.


Jermaine has averaged 2 blocks a game for his career, and is a very good position defender in the post. Plus he is one of top 2-3 big men at defending pick and roll and takes a lot of charges. That is why I called him a defensive beast.

You comparing JO to Greg Dreiling is flat out insane.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 12:19 AM
Former varsity basketball player on a team that finished second in state, I understand defense at least as well as anyone here, I don't need it explained to me.

I disagree that picking a spot, putting your hands in front of the jewels, and waiting for impact is good defense. It's certainly not a thing of beauty. Getting in front of your man and putting your hands in front of the ball and/or his face, but he runs you over still, yea, ok, good defense, but most charges in the NBA are not like this.

Your second example of taking a charge isn't even called a charge in the NBA, it's called a block. The only way to get a charge in the NBA is by beating the man with the ball to the spot and waiting for impact as you put it. Unless he just runs right into you while you are standing still.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 12:33 AM
I wasn't in love with excessive handchecking, but if it's allowed then you need to do it. Did it make the game more beautiful? Nope. But neither is it beautiful watching your man blow by you.


Really Anthem, I miss handchecking! The golden years of NBA basketball IMO, were the mid 80's-mid 90's, and those years were filled with handchecking, charge taking & flopping. My favorite team ever to watch play was the early 90's bad boy Pistons. They had some absolute wars with Boston and Chicago in the playoffs.

I think it makes the game much more physical which = more entertaining. I think that's why the NBA today just doesn't compare with the NBA of 15-20 years ago. I think they have taken the physicality out of the game with all the over the top flagrant foul calls, and special offensive advantage rules. People love the NFL because of the physicality, and they used to love the NBA for the same reason.

Putnam
06-04-2008, 08:33 AM
You comparing JO to Greg Dreiling is flat out insane.


Not guilty.

My post contains one paragraph saying something about Dreiling, to wit, he wasn't very good. Then a separate paragraph saying something different about O'Neal: that fans today justify (in part) his immense contract and his star status because he takes charges.

That isn't comparing the two players. That is a comment on how the game has changed for the worse and fans have grown to accept and even admire an ugly aspect of the NBA game.

Obviously, Taterhead, you don't agree with me and you'd rather watch Bill Lambier than Pete Maravich. That's OK. But there is nothing insane about my preference for the movement and passing game, either.

naptownmenace
06-04-2008, 10:07 AM
I disagree, to me a charge shows everything that should be great about the game (physical play, intelligence, will to win, putting your body on the line, etc.). And it does take skill. Toughness is a skill, not everyone has it. Timing is also a skill. Getting out of the way and conceding two points takes no skill, I could do that with the best of them.

Most charges wipe away easy lay-ups. It's as good as a blocked shot or a steal. I think the problems with the game are the severe lack of effort that you see every night. These guys don't really play until the playoffs.

All this being said I commend JO for that, it's very impressive. And this is why when he's healthy he is a defensive beast. I've always thought he was probably the best all around defensive big man in the league. He blocks shots, takes charges, defends the pick and roll exceptionally, and plays good position post defense to boot. All these people wanting to give him away are nuts, IMO.


I agree with every word. The only thing that I'll add is that the refs need to get better at determining the difference between a flop and a charge. They tend to be way too inconsistent even from quarter to quarter let alone from game to game.

People that have a problem with flopping need to blame the refs for rewarding the floppers with favorable calls.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 10:32 AM
Not guilty.

My post contains one paragraph saying something about Dreiling, to wit, he wasn't very good. Then a separate paragraph saying something different about O'Neal: that fans today justify (in part) his immense contract and his star status because he takes charges.

That isn't comparing the two players. That is a comment on how the game has changed for the worse and fans have grown to accept and even admire an ugly aspect of the NBA game.

Obviously, Taterhead, you don't agree with me and you'd rather watch Bill Lambier than Pete Maravich. That's OK. But there is nothing insane about my preference for the movement and passing game, either.

My bad, I was just wondering where Greg Dreiling entered the conversation.

For the record I don't enjoy Laimbeer as much as an Isaih Thomas in his prime. My point was I like watching highly contested basketball games, not All Star games. High skill level is obviously a necessity, but if someone isn't there stratching tooth and nail to stop you, you're skill never gets tested. I've always believed the Bad Boy Pistons were responsible for Michael Jordans rise to be widely considered the greatest ever. They taught him he couldn't do it himself no matter how talented he was.

I don't love watching guys take charges, I just feel it is better than an easy lay-up for the opposing team, and like the effort shown to take one.