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Smoothdave1
05-29-2008, 09:19 PM
Anyone hear the interview today? I was driving home from work tonight and heard just a piece of JO not being keen on rebuilding. Just was curious if anyone could post a summary?

rock747
05-29-2008, 09:26 PM
http://radio.sportingnews.com/ i think you can hear the interview here....if you have a sporting news pass or whatever..

Smoothdave1
05-29-2008, 09:29 PM
You gotta be a member to hear this.

madison
05-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Who cares if JO doesn't want to rebuild. His opinion count for little with me. He doesn't play a full season, makes way too much money for his contribution, and wants to comment on what the team should be doing. I have a message for JO. Get your butt on the court and show me something besides injury. In the meantime, keep your mouth shut and be grateful you have a long term contract, jack. Geez!

Anthem
05-29-2008, 09:59 PM
Who cares if JO doesn't want to rebuild. His opinion count for little with me. He doesn't play a full season, makes way too much money for his contribution, and wants to comment on what the team should be doing. I have a message for JO. Get your butt on the court and show me something besides injury. In the meantime, keep your mouth shut and be grateful you have a long term contract, jack. Geez!
Could we see a transcript or hear the interview before we start the lynch mob?

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 10:02 PM
Anyone hear the interview today? I was driving home from work tonight and heard just a piece of JO not being keen on rebuilding. Just was curious if anyone could post a summary?

It's not the 1st time JO has said that. If he had kept his mouth shut last season, he could be in NJ. Who knows we might have gotten their draft pick too. Then options would be unbelievable as what we could do this draft and the off season. I have always felt JO opened his mouth concerning his health just so NJ wouldn't do the trade. He didn't want to go to another rebuilding team but to the Lakers.

Arcadian
05-29-2008, 10:04 PM
NJ knew full well what JO's status was. Everyone in the league knew and knows that JO is injury prone.

Except now when he says he is 100% this summer I really believe him.

jeffg-body
05-29-2008, 10:07 PM
He might not be keen on rebuilding, but is he so miffed at the idea that he would opt out? I doubt that.

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 10:22 PM
NJ knew full well what JO's status was. Everyone in the league knew and knows that JO is injury prone.

Except now when he says he is 100% this summer I really believe him.


Let's hope some other GM's believe it too!

Rajah Brown
05-29-2008, 10:54 PM
Other than drain the team's cap in recent years, what exactly has
J.O. done to warrant any consideration of his opinion about
what TBTP should or shouldn't do ?

Young
05-29-2008, 11:05 PM
What the hell is wrong with Jermaine saying he doesn't want to rebuild?

It's an interview. He is suppose to give his opinion. I don't blame him for not wanting to re build, if I was him I wouldn't either.

He has said before that he doesn't want to re build and if the Pacers are going to they might as well trade him to a team is ready to contend now. That is a fine idea too btw.

Don't get me wrong I don't like how he has been injured all the time and the lack of team success and I wouldn't mind dealing Jermaine in the right deal but all that doesn't mean he can't voice his opinion.

ABADays
05-29-2008, 11:06 PM
JO has an Energizer Bunny mouth.

Anthem
05-29-2008, 11:08 PM
Don't get me wrong I don't like how he has been injured all the time and the lack of team success and I wouldn't mind dealing Jermaine in the right deal but all that doesn't mean he can't voice his opinion.
Especially since there's an awful lot of possible ways to say that. There's a big difference between "I'm not really excited about rebuilding, and it may be better for the Pacers to trade me" than "Screw that, they'll trade me or I'll sit out." People seem to be assuming the latter, but the former statement is a pretty tame, pretty considerate statement of fact (plus it's in line with what he's said for years).

Has anybody actually listened to this yet?

Eindar
05-29-2008, 11:23 PM
It's always been my thought that you can sit on the bench in a suit and wave a towel during a rebuilding effort just as vociferously as you can for a contender.

...or does JO actually plan on playing this year? :)

Cobol Sam
05-30-2008, 12:11 AM
It's always been my thought that you can sit on the bench in a suit and wave a towel during a rebuilding effort just as vociferously as you can for a contender.

...or does JO actually plan on playing this year? :)

Bravo!

LoneGranger33
05-30-2008, 12:38 AM
He always said that if he couldn't make Indiana a contender that he and the team should part ways.

aero
05-30-2008, 02:48 AM
JO acts like he is an all-star and leader....dont you have to play a full season and be out there earning all that money...ha what a waste.

count55
05-30-2008, 07:57 AM
Could we see a transcript or hear the interview before we start the lynch mob?


Especially since there's an awful lot of possible ways to say that. There's a big difference between "I'm not really excited about rebuilding, and it may be better for the Pacers to trade me" than "Screw that, they'll trade me or I'll sit out." People seem to be assuming the latter, but the former statement is a pretty tame, pretty considerate statement of fact (plus it's in line with what he's said for years).

Has anybody actually listened to this yet?

But if we listen to it, it might interfere with what we want to say.

YoSoyIndy
05-30-2008, 07:59 AM
He always said that if he couldn't make Indiana a contender that he and the team should part ways.

I liked that line the first time I heard it from him, but then I started thinking --- that's essentially a nice way of saying, "If we're not winning, send me to a winning team."

As someone else mentioned, I'm OK with him saying he doesn't want to rebuild. I wouldn't be OK if he decided to take it a step forward and sit out (while healthy) in protest. I don't see him doing that.

Doug
05-30-2008, 08:03 AM
Of course he doesn't want to rebuild.
I don't want to rebuild.
I'm sure Larry doesn't want to rebuild.

But, it's not like we're one player away from a championship.

I'm not even sure we're one player away from mediocrity.

What choice do we have?

Oh, wait, we can't even trade to rebuild, because our "desirable" players are all over paid and always injured.


/getting an early start on "dark-sider of the year" for 2008-2009...

owl
05-30-2008, 08:13 AM
The Pacers are still about 2 years away from being a playoff caliber team. JO and his massive
salary, along with Murphy are killing any chance before then of being competitive.
Now if JO actually played a whole season at his best then you might have some hope.

Arcadian
05-30-2008, 08:19 AM
We should rebuild and should trade JO. I don't know if either of those things will happen, what JO said or if he said something said something along those lines why he is wrong or a jerk.

Tom White
05-30-2008, 09:31 AM
He has said before that he doesn't want to re build and if the Pacers are going to they might as well trade him to a team is ready to contend now. That is a fine idea too btw.


The thing is, what contending team would remain a contending team once they match the salaries needed to make a trade for him? Even if a team does have enough of a roster remaining, what about when he goes down with another (or repeated) injury?

I think it is time for O'Neal to start grasping the idea that he is not going to get a ring, regardless of where is playing. Sorry to say that, but I believe it to be true.

idioteque
05-30-2008, 09:40 AM
Right now, JO saying he doesn't want to rebuild means nothing more to me that if Anthony Mason said he didn't want to rebuild the Knicks in 1997. Neither player has the influence right now to say something like that. JO is probably more or less the most overpaid player in the NBA, he should be collecting his checks, buying nice suits to wear on the bench, and keeping his mouth shut.

pacergod2
05-30-2008, 09:42 AM
i think JO has always been very politically correct when making statements and talking to the media. he is fairly well spoken and has integrity when talking with and about the organization. most of the time what he says gets taken completely out of context. here is another example.

the guy is 29. if we rebuild that means 3-4 years of bad players with expiring contracts, young guys who make a ton of mistakes playing significant minutes, a lot of losing, and too much wear on older guys taking on the extra burden. he would be 33 and in the last year or two of his career at the point where we would be good again. his skill level would have declined to the point where hes just a role player. JO is right because his timetable and the organization's timetable, if they choose to rebuild, are complete opposite. don't jump all over him because he's right.

JO has been loyal to this organization. he tried to get back last year way too early from the injury he had, which is a HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake. i had the exact same surgery he had 6 months ago and couldn't consider doing much more than taking a couple of jump shots at most. he re-aggravated the injury and it puts his timetable for being 100% to over the normal 18 months for full recovery. they can play in 6 typically, but they are playing at 85%. he has had the extra time to heal now and i have a feeling this is a bad time to trade JO, because his value will go up tremendously between now and the end of his contract. we can still get 2009 draft picks before the trade deadline, so why not see how he plays with us. he can make us a playoff team and maybe its us that can make a trade at the deadline to complement JO. just trying to make some rational sense. worst case scenario he gets injured again and he is a huge expiring contract for our rebuilding process.

Taterhead
05-30-2008, 09:44 AM
What the hell is wrong with Jermaine saying he doesn't want to rebuild?

It's an interview. He is suppose to give his opinion. I don't blame him for not wanting to re build, if I was him I wouldn't either.


Bingo, I don't get people being mad about this at all. He wants to win games and compete in the playoffs. If he was cool with rebuilding I would be far more worried. I would hope Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy would feel the same way.

Naptown_Seth
05-30-2008, 10:41 AM
The irony is that if JO wasn't so injured and so below the level that got him paid in the first place they wouldn't be facing a rebuild. He's created the very situation he doesn't want to be in.

I like JO and I have no problems with him saying he doesn't really want to be in that situation. I'm sure he's going from a "my career is running out and I'd hate to spend my final years watching others prepare for future success that I won't be part of". I think Reggie was slightly concerned about this in 2000, though to his credit he also seemed to be willing to bite the bullet and risk it (which paid off till the brawl).

But JO also has to see that if he can actually play at a 15-18m level this team would be at least a 4-5 seed. Give us 48% on 20-10 with 3.5 ast and 2 blocks and you'll see a LOT more wins. Presto, rebuild over.

Rajah Brown
05-30-2008, 10:58 AM
No matter what he does the next year or two, the odds of
J.O. being in Indy as a Pacer for the 2010-11 season are
extremely slim and none, with the emphasis on none.
Not rebuilding now just means it'll have to be done in 2-3
years.

If winning and/or winning a ring was J.O.'s highest priority,
he'd opt-out this Summer to help facilitate a trade the
Pacers and another team could live with.

Anthem
05-30-2008, 11:03 AM
If winning and/or winning a ring was J.O.'s highest priority,
he'd opt-out this Summer to help facilitate a trade the
Pacers and another team could live with.
If he opts out he leaves and we get nothing.

NapTonius Monk
05-30-2008, 11:30 AM
He's created the very situation he doesn't want to be in.

I disagree with this. We haven't been the same since the brawl. TPTB held on to Ronnie too long, not to mention they had a volatile mix with Jax thrown in as well. The move to get Al was ill advised. I love Dunleavy, but I think we could have gotten him without taking on Troy Murphy (not too sure about that though). Not too sure how this all lands at JO's feet, other than to say he probably put too much pressure on himself to try to do it all. Explains why he pushed himself even through injury.

NapTonius Monk
05-30-2008, 11:34 AM
If he opts out he leaves and we get nothing.

Nothing? You get 19 million in cap space, which is a good thing. Plus, Murphy will be a fat, juicy expiring contract you can work with. That's probably a better way to go, than taking on a bunch of lowball crap offers that will only extend the misery.

Rajah Brown
05-30-2008, 11:36 AM
Anthem-

Point taken. My mistake.

Note: I agree with QS. Jettisoning the $19mil in cap space would
be ample consolation in exchange for his departure with
nothing in exchange.

Sollozzo
05-30-2008, 11:49 AM
If he opts out he leaves and we get nothing.

Fine with me.

And I wouldn't call the cap space "nothing"

count55
05-30-2008, 11:51 AM
Nothing? You get 19 million in cap space, which is a good thing. Plus, Murphy will be a fat, juicy expiring contract you can work with. That's probably a better way to go, than taking on a bunch of lowball crap offers that will only extend the misery.

You get zero cap space...well, more accurately, you now probably have enough room under the luxury tax to use all or part of you MLE and LLE's. Of course, this greatly depends on how much you pony up for Danny.

You cannot use JO's slot to sign anybody other than JO. You can use it to trade for others, but you can't use it to sign someone unless you actually get that far under the cap.

If JO were to opt out this summer, then I think we would actually be below the cap (at around $50 after signing our 1st Rounder), but not anywhere near enough to do much from a FA perspective. In fact, we might be over the cap once they start "reserving" some of the exceptions, but, to be honest, I get a little confused on how that works. We certainly won't have $19 (or $21 mil) in capspace.

If he opts out next summer, it saves us $23 mil, but we'll have $35 mil tied up in 6 players (Murph, Dunleavy, Tins (or the contract we trade him for), Diener, Williams, and this year's 1st Rounder), then another couple million for the 2009 1st rounder, plus whatever we invest in Danny (figure min of $8 mil), leaving us at, call it $45 mil for eight players...with maybe $10 to $15 mil left under the cap to sign the other 6 or 7 to fill out the roster.

This is the problem with expiring contracts in a soft-cap situation. You can only maximize the slot through a trade. If you just let it expire, then your only real benefit is financial, and you, very likely, end up getting nothing from an on-court perspective.

Now, it may be best not to try to take contracts back, then completely start over, but that basically means that the (re)construction clock won't start until the end of JO's contract, which he's almost certain to see through to the end.

travmil
05-30-2008, 12:00 PM
It doesn't matter how far under the cap we get because no free agent wants to come here. Any free agent that is worthy of a big contract will simply use the Pacers to up the offer from his own team and then re-sign like Kobe did to the Lakers when the Clips came calling. This puts us in a bad situation because we are always left with the scraps after the free agent signings. We don't have a strong enough core of players to attract other players here to play with them. Karem Rush? Travis Deiner? Come on, we ended up with them because they weren't wanted elsewhere. If we're offering the same money as New York or LA or Miami, regardless of the quality of the team, guess where that guy is going. Being far under the cap will only result in having more money to throw into a bad contract for a player that isn't worth it.

I'm throwing my hat into the ring for DarkSider 2009. I'm watching you Doug.

count55
05-30-2008, 12:04 PM
It doesn't matter how far under the cap we get because no free agent wants to come here. Any free agent that is worthy of a big contract will simply use the Pacers to up the offer from his own team and then re-sign like Kobe did to the Lakers when the Clips came calling. This puts us in a bad situation because we are always left with the scraps after the free agent signings. Karem Rush? Travis Deiner? Come on, we ended up with them because they weren't wanted elsewhere. If we're offering the same money as New York or LA or Miami, guess where that guy is going. Being far under the cap will only result in having more money to throw into a bad contract for a player that isn't worth it.

I'm throwing my hat into the ring for DarkSider 2009. I'm watching you Doug.

Another solid point, but I would argue that we could realistically compete for mid-level (talent, not exception) Free Agents, and maybe add some decent-to-valuable pieces there, so the room is not completely devoid of value. However, it's certainly not as valuable as some would make it out to be. We are not, have never, and will never be serious players in the MegaFree Agent market like the one coming in 2010.

Arcadian
05-30-2008, 12:12 PM
Having cap flexibility, which having JO walk out would give us, helps teams stay competitive. It does not make them competitive.

I think as hard as it is we need to use JO to get some prospects. Just having money available doesn't really help us.

travmil
05-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Another solid point, but I would argue that we could realistically compete for mid-level (talent, not exception) Free Agents, and maybe add some decent-to-valuable pieces there, so the room is not completely devoid of value. However, it's certainly not as valuable as some would make it out to be. We are not, have never, and will never be serious players in the MegaFree Agent market like the one coming in 2010.

Fair enough. However, if the aforementioned Rush and Deiner are the types of players that TPTB are going to bring in as mid level talent, and I can't stress enough that I think both are low level talent, I'll pass.

count55
05-30-2008, 12:40 PM
Fair enough. However, if the aforementioned Rush and Deiner are the types of players that TPTB are going to bring in as mid level talent, and I can't stress enough that I think both are low level talent, I'll pass.

Nope, those are definitely low-risk, low-reward, rummage sale guys...

Rajah Brown
05-30-2008, 12:53 PM
For the record, my agreement with QR that getting nothing back
would be ok has nothing to do with anticipating using that 'space'
to sign an FA/s.

Tom White
05-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Nothing? You get 19 million in cap space, which is a good thing. Plus, Murphy will be a fat, juicy expiring contract you can work with. That's probably a better way to go, than taking on a bunch of lowball crap offers that will only extend the misery.

Don't confuse reducing payroll by $19M with being under the cap by $19M.

Shade
05-30-2008, 01:35 PM
Already two pages long, and we don't even know what he said yet? :hmm:

count55
05-30-2008, 01:36 PM
Already two pages long, and we don't even know what he said yet? :hmm:

As I said earlier, that would just get in the way.

Justin Tyme
05-30-2008, 01:45 PM
I think it is time for O'Neal to start grasping the idea that he is not going to get a ring, regardless of where is playing. Sorry to say that, but I believe it to be true.

If Glen Robinson has a ring, then JO has a chance! What did Robinson contribute to get his ring? Very little, if anything. But I agree that chance is slim and next to none.

It's like being an IU BB fan over the last 20 years, wait until next year. Well, I'm tired of waiting on next year for JO to be the player he was. Was is gone, and so should he.

My wish and hope is he comes back injury free enough some GM decides they need him on their team. Donnie don't you need JO? PLEASE! Starbury will work. OMG did I just say that?! That says how tired I am, and how much I want to get rid of JO. It's time for a parting of the ways for both JO and the Pacers.

denyfizle
05-30-2008, 02:15 PM
Larry, tell JO we're definitely rebuilding and convince him to opt out. Tired of this dude!

ABADays
05-30-2008, 02:39 PM
Bingo, I don't get people being mad about this at all. He wants to win games and compete in the playoffs. If he was cool with rebuilding I would be far more worried. I would hope Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy would feel the same way.

UH . . . he has to be on the floor to do that.

Even if he is recovered from his injury and still here, I don't think we will even see 1/2 the player earning $19M.

mb221
05-30-2008, 03:37 PM
I'll never understand the hate JO gets around Indy. The guy has been nothing but a class act for this organization and the city. Sure he has been injured, but I don't think there has ever been a question of JO's desire to play. He has admittedly and obviously played injured many times for this franchise and his contributions in the community are well documented. He has been very unlucky with his injuries, but you would think it was his own fault from the way people want to ship him off for cheese and crackers around here.

Will Galen
05-30-2008, 04:36 PM
I'll never understand the hate JO gets around Indy. The guy has been nothing but a class act for this organization and the city. Sure he has been injured, but I don't think there has ever been a question of JO's desire to play. He has admittedly and obviously played injured many times for this franchise and his contributions in the community are well documented. He has been very unlucky with his injuries, but you would think it was his own fault from the way people want to ship him off for cheese and crackers around here.

It's a case of what have you done for me lately. I can see their point.

Anthem
05-30-2008, 05:28 PM
Already two pages long, and we don't even know what he said yet? :hmm:
For real. Somebody pony up the $$$ for a free 14-day trial and let's get some facts in here.

Smoothdave1
05-30-2008, 06:57 PM
I'll do the free trial and post a summary later tonight

tora tora
05-30-2008, 08:05 PM
Who cares what he said? It's more than likely the typical "I can't take this team to the top" :blahblah: "I'm not happy here. I don't want to rebuild" :bawl:

Anthem
05-30-2008, 08:24 PM
Who cares what he said? It's more than likely the typical "I can't take this team to the top" :blahblah: "I'm not happy here. I don't want to rebuild" :bawl:
We have a 3-page discussion of comments that nobody has heard.

avoidingtheclowns
05-30-2008, 08:29 PM
We have a 3-page discussion of comments that nobody has heard.

details details

CableKC
05-30-2008, 08:51 PM
Isn't JONeal just echoing what Bird thinks we should do?

Also....I forget....did TPTB say that we will rebuild?

or

Did they just say that we will just get players that we will be proud about ( which doesn't necessarily mean rebuild )?

Anthem
05-30-2008, 09:04 PM
Also....I forget....did TPTB say that we will rebuild?

or

Did they just say that we will just get players that we will be proud about ( which doesn't necessarily mean rebuild )?
It necessarily does.

It can be a quick rebuild, but this team needs rebuilding.

NuffSaid
05-30-2008, 09:28 PM
Already two pages long, and we don't even know what he said yet? :hmm:

Friday, May 30, 2008 11:40 am EDT
Jermaine O'Neal sees himself being traded

By J.E. Skeets

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__7/ept_sports_nba_experts-594670535-1212159926.jpg?ym3uad_CaQnJMcrs

Pacers center Jermaine O'Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120/) was a guest on The Monty Show on Sporting News Radio yesterday. It's an excellent interview, most notably for JO's remarks on where he sees himself in the Pacers' immediate future. The ($20 million) money quote:

"I really believe if it comes down to them totally rebuilding, I believe that they will move me. That's pretty much the consensus thought I got from the ownership and management before I left Indianapolis. I don't think it's going to come down to a situation where we got to go back and forth, back and forth for me to be moved on, because they've just totally re-hauled the team. I think if they're going to re-haul the team, then they will move me, and move me to another team that has a chance of winning a championship."

Not the complete interview, but that's it in a nutshell. It's not JO necessarily wanting to be moved, but him stating that if mgmt decided to do a complete rebuild that in his opinion they'd try to trade him.

Smoothdave1
05-30-2008, 09:33 PM
Okay, I just listened to the interview and wanted to give a summary:

-- JO has spent the past few weeks in Vegas working out at Joe Abunassar's academy. (For those who aren't familiar, Joe is an IU grad who operated a camp in Bloomington and now has locations in Bradenton, Florida as well as in Las Vegas. A lot of NBA players work out with him during the off-season and a lot of NBA prospects work out with him before the NBA draft as well. I believe that Tinsley, Al Harrington and Ike Diogu (this summer) have all worked out with him in the past few years)

-- The host talked about Jermain'e Nike shoes and JO mentioned he has 200 pairs of his signature shoes and that Nike takes care of him and his son

-- The host suggested that purple would look good on his shoe (ala LA Lakers) and Jermaine laughed

-- Jermaine talked about his injured knee and how he played through pain the past few years and came back too early and that he was not going to rush anything and was now healthy

-- Said he can't worry about things out of his control and is looking to be back to an All Star level and dominating this year

-- Mentioned his wife told him to get mentally healthy before he can become physically healthy and is looking to come back strong this season

-- The host talked about Dunleavy and Murphy saying that they were not guys who could win a championship

-- Jermaine then mentioned that if the Pacers do rebuild, he would prefer to go to a championship contender as he said he has 6-7 years left in the NBA --
--Host mentioned JO's contract being for 2 more years and that it may be difficult to move him and JO mentioned he has "2 big years ahead of me" and that he is still under contract with the Pacers for 2 years (i.e. he's not opting out) and not a free agent

-- Jermaine talked about his loyalty to Indianapolis and the Simon brothers as they made a huge gamble in trading for him from Portland and allowed him to make his name known in the NBA. Mentioned that the Simons had done a lot for him and that he didn't want to do anything to tarnish his image like other players had before they left a team

-- The host mentioned that Walsh was now gone and Bird was under fire and JO responded that he and Donnie had a good relationship and that he and Bird "had not had the greatest relationship"

-- Mentioned that the Simons knew where he was coming from in wanting to play for a contender and a rin and that this was a business and he understood that and could only control the basketball portion

-- Jermaine feels the Pacers are rebuilding and he will probably be moved this summer. Mentioned that his agent has been in talks with the Pacers and that he spoke with Bird and the Simons after the season and that they would talk again after the draft and mentioned Herb told him that if he is moved, they would try and trade him to a championship contender

Overall, a rather interesting interview. JO really sounds like he is done in Indy. He is obviously not opting out and didn't demand a trade publicly (although it sounds like he demaned one privately), but would prefer a trade as he feels the Pacers are indeed rebuilding. The host didn't seem to care for the Pacers whatsoever as he trashed Dunleavy, Murphy and Bird. Somewhat interesting to hear him mention his relationship with Bird as not being strong. But he praised the Simons and Indy and mentioned that he has a lot of support from Pacer fans and the city and does not want to upset them as a lot of athletes tarnish their image before they leave a city.

Any thoughts? What "championship contender" might be interested in JO's services and contract?

count55
05-30-2008, 09:45 PM
Friday, May 30, 2008 11:40 am EDT
Jermaine O'Neal sees himself being traded

By J.E. Skeets

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__7/ept_sports_nba_experts-594670535-1212159926.jpg?ym3uad_CaQnJMcrs

Pacers center Jermaine O'Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120/) was a guest on The Monty Show on Sporting News Radio yesterday. It's an excellent interview, most notably for JO's remarks on where he sees himself in the Pacers' immediate future. The ($20 million) money quote:

"I really believe if it comes down to them totally rebuilding, I believe that they will move me. That's pretty much the consensus thought I got from the ownership and management before I left Indianapolis. I don't think it's going to come down to a situation where we got to go back and forth, back and forth for me to be moved on, because they've just totally re-hauled the team. I think if they're going to re-haul the team, then they will move me, and move me to another team that has a chance of winning a championship."

Not the complete interview, but that's it in a nutshell. It's not JO necessarily wanting to be moved, but him stating that if mgmt decided to do a complete rebuild that in his opinion they'd try to trade him.

Ummm...duh...isn't it basically a Mr. Obvious quote to say that if they really rebuild, they'll move JO? I mean isn't trading JO the basic definition of rebuilding the Pacers?

travmil
05-30-2008, 09:53 PM
Any thoughts? What "championship contender" might be interested in JO's services and contract?

Championship contenders over the next few years

1. Lakers-They don't want Jermaine or they would have given up on Bynum, Besides they don't need him with Pau around anyway.
2. Celtics-The C's only have room for one PF who talks a big game and fails to come through in the clutch, and at least the one they have plays.
3. Hornets - Not likely. In order to get Jermaine, I'm sure the P's would insist on Chandler and I don't think that's gonna happen.
4. Pistons - I just threw up in my mouth a little.
5. Jazz - I can't think of anything they'd be willing to part with. AK and Okur maybe but it would take WAY more to match JO's salary.
6. Cavs - Good fit for JO but they'd try to dump Big Z on us. No thanks.
7. Spurs - I can't come up with any realistic scenarios. He'd immediately be the highest paid player on their team and most of them have 3 or more rings. Something doesn't seem right about that.

Nothing stands out. Who are the other contenders or close to contending. Orlando is pretty close. Portland will be tough to deal with soon.

count55
05-30-2008, 10:06 PM
5. Jazz - I can't think of anything they'd be willing to part with. AK and Okur maybe but it would take WAY more to match JO's salary.

I don't think Utah would send them to us, but AK and Okur are scheduled to make a combined $24.1mm next year vs. JO's $21.4mm, which works under cap rules...(actually increasing our payroll).

Smoothdave1
05-30-2008, 10:21 PM
A few potential contenders (not previously mentioned):

-- Dallas -- window of opportunity is closing and Cuban could pull the trigger on a deal. Would the Pacers want a Terry, Howard, Dampier or Stackhouse?

-- Phoenix -- gambled and lost with Shaq. New ownership group and Nash isn't getting any younger. Suns would not deal Amare unless Pacers included Granger and we also took Diaw

-- Golden State -- a ton of free agents for a 50+ win team, but Baron seems unhappy and you know JO would love to be back with Jax and Big Al. I don't think the Pacers would want Davis and a 3 way deal would have to be worked out.

-- Denver has an interesting core with Iverson (whom JO is good friends with). I don't see us having a lot of interest in Camby, KMart or Nene. We're loaded at the 3 and would have to deal Granger or Dunleavy to make room for Carmelo. Now, Denver could be a potential 3 way partner, though.

-- Houston -- T-mac and JO's contracts run the same length and right at about equal dollars. T-mac, like JO, has had his fair share of health problems.

As far as teams in the East, you have the Wizards, Magic, Hawks, Nets and Raps. I don't know if one of those teams would want JO, honestly? Maybe the Nets would give us Carter and Swift or Hassell, but that's about it.

I could see the Pacers dealing JO to the Knicks, Mavs or Bulls.

Dece
05-30-2008, 10:27 PM
I just can't imagine some guys being willing to play here. I mean, we'd own their contract so I guess they'd have to, but I can see them slacking off hard pouting about it. Talking guys like Stackhouse, Baron, Shaq... Shaq especially would just shut it down every other game due to "injury" and collect his checks on the way to his retirement.

I'm not sure what we can do about that, but it probably should be considered.

wintermute
05-30-2008, 11:04 PM
just to add, mike wells also weighs in on that sporting news interview

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2008/05/those_darn_misl.html



Those darn misleading headlines
Posted by Mike Wells

I can see why athletes get upset over misleading headlines in newspapers or on the internet.

I logged onto my computer to check my email Thursday evening and one of the messages I got had the subject line: "Jermaine O'Neal wants to be traded."

The first thing that went through my head was, "Oh no, here we go," before I even opened the email.

My thoughts quickly changed when I opened the email from a guy at Sporting News.

O'Neal, who is in Las Vegas working out, did an interview with Sporting News Radio, but not once during the session did he say he wants to be traded. In fact, O'Neal just reiterated the same stuff he's told the local media the past year or so.

--He prefers not to be part of a rebuilding project with the Pacers.
--He thinks he'll be traded if the Pacers rebuild.
--He talked about his knee problem.

Sorry if you've heard or read about this before. I know I've written this in the past.

It's no secret that the Pacers are going to look to trade O'Neal this summer. The rebuilding project - if they decide to go that way - can get started quicker by trading him because of his salary.

I gave O'Neal a call after reading the interview. I told him what the subject line and the first thing he said was, "Come on, Mike, do you think I really said I wanted to be traded on the radio?" I said, "No," and we both got a laugh out of the situation.

O'Neal said his knee feels good and he's working out on a regular basis at the Abunassar Impact Basketball academy in Las Vegas.

Here's part of the transcript from O'Neal's interview with Sporting News Radio:

O'Neal thinks he'll be traded if team rebuilds:

"I really believe if it comes down to them totally rebuilding, I believe that they will move me. That's pretty much the consensus thought I got from the ownership and management before I left Indianapolis. I don't think it's going to come down to a situation where we got to go back and forth, back and forth for me to be moved on, because they've just totally rehauled the team. I think if they're going to rehaul the team, then they will move me, and move me to another team that has a chance of winning a championship. That was one thing that was said to me and really pleased me before I left Indianapolis."

O'Neal thinks they're rebuilding and prefers not to go through it:

"I think they are about to rebuild. I'm not sure; we're supposed to meet after the draft again. If that's the case, I would prefer to not go through a rebuilding stage."



pretty much the same content that nuffsaid and smoothdave already posted. it seems though that tptb want to send j.o. to a contending team (as a sort of reward?)

wintermute
05-30-2008, 11:11 PM
i wonder if j.o. would be willing to opt out if it facilitates his move to a contender. let's say tptb tells j.o.: "the mavs and rick carlisle really want you to go there and provide an inside presence. but your contract is so big that the mavs will be stripped if we do a matching trade. would you be willing to opt out and restructure your deal from 2 years $43m to 4 years $50m instead?"

that would make j.o. easier to move but would cost him $$$ though

Anthem
05-30-2008, 11:16 PM
Ummm...duh...isn't it basically a Mr. Obvious quote to say that if they really rebuild, they'll move JO? I mean isn't trading JO the basic definition of rebuilding the Pacers?
Exactly.

"Oh, Jermaine needs to stop shooting off his mouth and demanding" blah blah blah.

Sounds like common sense to me. Jermaine sees the writing on the wall. Bird doesn't like him, he doesn't like Bird. He'd have to be an idiot not to know that Bird wants to move him.

BlueNGold
05-30-2008, 11:17 PM
i wonder if j.o. would be willing to opt out if it facilitates his move to a contender. let's say tptb tells j.o.: "the mavs and rick carlisle really want you to go there and provide an inside presence. but your contract is so big that the mavs will be stripped if we do a matching trade. would you be willing to opt out and restructure your deal from 2 years $43m to 4 years $50m instead?"

that would make j.o. easier to move but would cost him $$$ though

JO is smart enough to know that the money he will be paid over the next two years is far more money than he's likely ever to make again the rest of his life. I think he waits another year regardless.

Oneal07
05-30-2008, 11:18 PM
Larry Bird talks about getting Free Agents to help win. How Is That rebuilding the team? Look at the Lakers, they've made it to the finals with a young team.

Everyone wants to go to a contender, but if your not San Antonio, the Lakers, Boston, Or Detroit, any other team you go to, your not winning any championship.

Smoothdave1
05-30-2008, 11:35 PM
I think JO thinks long and hard, if at all, before he opts out of the 2 years and 43 million he has left on his deal. From the interview, it sounds like he has no plans to opt out. I think JO believes that he will return to form like he was a few years ago and will get another 3-4 year deal at 8-15 million a year.

At the end of the day, JO cares about getting paid more than a ring. Yeah, he would prefer to go to a contender, but it takes 2 to tango and not a lot of teams can take that large of a salary on without gutting a team unless you're sending overpaid players or a player that no one wants.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 12:05 AM
It necessarily does.

It can be a quick rebuild, but this team needs rebuilding.
I don't necessarily agree that getting the "right type of players that we can be proud about" necessarily means that we do rebuild. We can get some experienced players that are considered "milk drinkers" and still building an experienced Playoff team as opposed to completely rebuilding with young players.

Also....we all know that we should be rebuilding....but I don't get the sense that TPTB wants to do that....if they did...they would have done so years ago.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 12:23 AM
Championship contenders over the next few years

1. Lakers-They don't want Jermaine or they would have given up on Bynum, Besides they don't need him with Pau around anyway.
2. Celtics-The C's only have room for one PF who talks a big game and fails to come through in the clutch, and at least the one they have plays.
3. Hornets - Not likely. In order to get Jermaine, I'm sure the P's would insist on Chandler and I don't think that's gonna happen.
4. Pistons - I just threw up in my mouth a little.
5. Jazz - I can't think of anything they'd be willing to part with. AK and Okur maybe but it would take WAY more to match JO's salary.
6. Cavs - Good fit for JO but they'd try to dump Big Z on us. No thanks.
7. Spurs - I can't come up with any realistic scenarios. He'd immediately be the highest paid player on their team and most of them have 3 or more rings. Something doesn't seem right about that.

Nothing stands out. Who are the other contenders or close to contending. Orlando is pretty close. Portland will be tough to deal with soon.
I was thinking of the impact that adding Gasol to the Lakers has done has done for the team.

I think that JONeal could be that type of player that can do something similiar for a Playoff team looking to do something similiar to what the Lakers did.........specifically adding a player that was considered a "Franchise Level Player that isn't really a Franchise Player" to the roster as a 2nd Scoring Option ( what most of us think JONeal is way better suited to do ) and bumping their 2nd scoring option who maybe considered a "borderline All-Star down to the 2nd/3rd scoring option on the team.

IMHO....the only team that makes any sense, fit JONeals Half-Court game, and would be close to a Championship is the Cavs.

Taterhead
05-31-2008, 01:31 AM
UH . . . he has to be on the floor to do that.

Even if he is recovered from his injury and still here, I don't think we will even see 1/2 the player earning $19M.

Of course, but he's not getting injured on purpose is he? I don't fault him for his injuries, they are out of his control. But, I would much rather gamble on JO's health and his return to all star status than deal him for Zach Randolph, Vince Carter or some of the other crap players that have been tossed around on here. The players being mentioned don't fix a single weakness on our team, they are just trades for the sake of it.

People who want to deal him openly state they think he has no value. He is extremely overpaid and injury prone, etc. And if that's true, then they want to deal the Pacers best player for basically nothing of significance. And they honestly think that is going to bring us closer to contending for anything other than one of the last few spots in the Eastern playoff race?

JO is 29 and has had NO SIGNIFICANT INJURIES! Why in the world couldn't he regain form? When he came back last year after sitting out for months he put up pretty good numbers in very limited minutes and was head and shoulders above any other big man on our team.

Peck
05-31-2008, 04:22 AM
"I think they are about to rebuild. I'm not sure; we're supposed to meet after the draft again. If that's the case, I would prefer to not go through a rebuilding stage."

This part stands out to me like a red ruby in salt.

I wonder what it means by "about to rebuild"? I am sorry but Jamaal and Jermaine have not been part of the team for the past two seasons so I don't understand how just moving them is a rebuild.

Are they talking an even more drastic overhaul? How many losses are they going to be willing to take?

I just don't see trading J.O. as a rebuild because he hasn't been here for awhile. In fact if they get any player in return that plays 70 plus games I don't see how that would be a down grade at all.

I wonder if there is serious consideration to moving the vets. like Foster & Daniels?

I'm sorry but if J.O. is just thinking that moving him and J.T. is rebuilding I just don't agree.

count55
05-31-2008, 09:09 AM
"I think they are about to rebuild. I'm not sure; we're supposed to meet after the draft again. If that's the case, I would prefer to not go through a rebuilding stage."

This part stands out to me like a red ruby in salt.

I wonder what it means by "about to rebuild"? I am sorry but Jamaal and Jermaine have not been part of the team for the past two seasons so I don't understand how just moving them is a rebuild.

Are they talking an even more drastic overhaul? How many losses are they going to be willing to take?

I just don't see trading J.O. as a rebuild because he hasn't been here for awhile. In fact if they get any player in return that plays 70 plus games I don't see how that would be a down grade at all.

I wonder if there is serious consideration to moving the vets. like Foster & Daniels?

I'm sorry but if J.O. is just thinking that moving him and J.T. is rebuilding I just don't agree.

Above, you note that Jamaal and Jermaine have not been part of the team for the past two seasons, but I believe this proposition is incorrect. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find two players who have been more instrumental or influential on the team over the last two seasons.

A team/franchise in the NBA has two basic aspects: (A) on the court and (B) on the books. While Aspect A ultimately determines whether or not they win the championship, Aspect B can absolutely prevent the franchise from making their Aspect A strong enough to win one.

The strongest argument for these two players "not being part of the team" comes in regard to Aspect A: on the court. The two missed a combined 83 player games this season, so they were clearly non-factors in the box score. However, that doesn't mean that they weren't huge factors over the past two season on the court.

First, JO and Jamaal played in 69 and 72 games respectively the season prior to this, accounting for 62% and 57% of the minutes played at their respective positions. Second, the structure of the team on the court was largely structured based on the idea that Jermaine would be the inside player and Jamaal would run the offense. The team was relatively open about the Golden State trade being an attempt to find players who fit better with JO, while O'Brien emphasized the role and opportunity JT would have in his offense.

They may not have contributed positively to the team, but they were certainly part of it, at least in terms of impacting the results on the floor. Regrettably, it was adversely due to their absence.

However, it is in Aspect B: on the books, that these two have, and will continue to have, the biggest role on the team. In this past season, their combined salaries of over $26mm accounted for just under 40% of the team's payroll. These two players alone chewed up 47% of the salary cap. In two years, their combined $30mm of pay may account for over 50% of the salary cap, depending on how that figure grows.

These two are the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the room. While I think there are some decent pieces on the roster (Dunleavy, Granger, maybe Williams and Foster), there is nowhere near enough talent to propel a team committing that much money to these particular players anywhere beyond (at best) an early exit in the playoffs. No, their trade(s) would not signal the completion of a rebuild, but one cannot start until it happens.

Also, while it might be possible to deal Droopy without committing to rebuilding, I don't believe the same could be said of any deal involving Jermaine. If Jermaine gets moved, the team is locked into a course of rebuilding. To make a move like the rumored Cleveland deal, then stop would be, IMO, tantamount to saying you're not skydiving by refusing to pull the rip cord after you've already jumped out of the plane.

I guess what I was saying earlier was that there really is no way for Jermaine to be here and for there actually to be a rebuilding process at the same time. Therefore, his comments about not wanting to be a part of one are moot. His presence, at least over the next two seasons, prevents the act of rebuilding. His departure signals the beginning of one.

Rajah Brown
05-31-2008, 09:25 AM
Count55-

Extremely well said and spot on.

Tom White
05-31-2008, 09:44 AM
Everyone wants to go to a contender, but if your not San Antonio, the Lakers, Boston, Or Detroit, any other team you go to, your not winning any championship.

On the other hand, think back to last year. Would you (then) have considered the Celtics or the Lakers as championship contenders?

Likely not.

Now look at this season. What teams are in a position similar to the Celts and Lakers of a year ago? Does adding an O'Neal to the mix do for them what adding Gasol did for LA?

I think you have to look at teams that are maybe not currently contenders, but, with the right addition(s), could be. For example, would O'Neal have helped get Atlanta past Boston? Could be.

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 10:01 AM
Any thoughts? What "championship contender" might be interested in JO's services and contract?

Cleveland is supposingly very interested.

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 10:28 AM
Bird has said rebuilding to him is starting over and he won't do that. He believes in adding pieces to the team and seeing what sticks and he's did a lot of that the last two years.

So I'm like Peck, I don't believe JO and Tins are really a major part of the team so even if you moved them it wouldn't be rebuilding.

I think Bird's goal this summer is to get out from under JO's contract, get rid of Tinsley, and add players to the core.

Myself I would rather keep JO one more year, however if the rumor is correct and Cleveland would take Tins along with JO that would be very hard to pass up, so I really wouldn't care which way Bird went under that scenario.

Smoothdave1
05-31-2008, 10:44 AM
I'm sure Cleveland is interested, especially after having watched the Lakers add Gasol and seeing where it's taken them. The thing is, do you eally want Z or Varejao? I'd probably pass on that deal, if offered.

I don't want to trade JO just for the sake of trading JO. However, it seems as if it's gotten to the point now where JO will whine and moan about being in Indy because they're rebuilding. JO has not publicly demanded a trade, but who knows what's been said behind closed doors. If I were a betting man, I would guess that he has asked Bird to do whatever it takes to deal him. I just don't want to get into another Artest situation or get to the point where JO is killing any and all team chemistry that we may have, if any.

As I mentioned before, JO has a LARGE contract and salary that the Pacers need to #1 Find a willing trade partner and #2 find a deal that is halfway decent. Jermaine was the 7th highest paid player in the league this past season and will be the 5th highest paid player next season behind only KG, Marbury, Iverson and Kidd. The following year JO will be the 3rd highest paid player in the NBA behind T-mac and Kobe. Now as much as we talk about doing a deal, you can see the salary and how hard it may be to construct a perfect deal. Do I want Randolph or Carter? Not really. But if the Pacers were offered an opportunity to get a top 8 lottery pick, I think Bird would at least listen. It just depends on whether or not the Pacers feel JO will ever regain his All-Star form and whether or not they're ready to part ways.

Rajah Brown
05-31-2008, 11:31 AM
I can't see where a deal with CLE for Big-Z and Varajeo would be
doing much more than rearranging the deck chairs. Big-Z certainly
wouldn't be part of the Pacers 3 yrs from now and V may well not
be either. But if it facilitates punting Tinsley, I guess it's worth
considering.

Hicks
05-31-2008, 12:23 PM
V would be Jeff's younger replacement, so he'd likely stick around. Z is just a nice C to have for a little while, not the star of the team by any stretch.

In fact, you could go ahead and be more open to trading Foster with V here to be the hustler/rebounder guy. Foster's not only good, but an expiring contract.

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 12:32 PM
V would be Jeff's younger replacement, so he'd likely stick around. Z is just a nice C to have for a little while, not the star of the team by any stretch.

In fact, you could go ahead and be more open to trading Foster with V here to be the hustler/rebounder guy. Foster's not only good, but an expiring contract.

Why not tag team Varajeo and Foster? That would be a nightmare to face for some players. Yeah . . . the more I think about it the more I like it.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 12:36 PM
I can't see where a deal with CLE for Big-Z and Varajeo would be
doing much more than rearranging the deck chairs. Big-Z certainly
wouldn't be part of the Pacers 3 yrs from now and V may well not
be either. But if it facilitates punting Tinsley, I guess it's worth
considering.
I don't necessarily think that getting Big Z and Varajeo would necessarily be "rearranging the deck chairs". It can be argued that getting healthy Big Men in the rotation that you can be assured will likely play for about 70+ games a season would be better then getting 60+ games out of a JONeal that you are not sure will be playing or not for one reason or another.

I'm not saying that either are better then JONeal in talent or skill level...I would clearly want to keep JONeal on talent alone.....the problem is that I just can't count on him to be healthy. He's an unknown variable to me that I would like to eliminate.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 12:41 PM
V would be Jeff's younger replacement, so he'd likely stick around. Z is just a nice C to have for a little while, not the star of the team by any stretch.

In fact, you could go ahead and be more open to trading Foster with V here to be the hustler/rebounder guy. Foster's not only good, but an expiring contract.
Although I would be loathe to move Foster....I agree here. Making such a move would allow us to have some options. That's the one reasons why I think the 2007 Offseason moves consisted ONLY of signing Diener and Rush.....because of our cap limitations...we had very few options to improve our team. Foster can probably fetch some decent "trading assets" or even allow us to be involved in any # of 3-team trades. That's what I want...options to improve this team while we wait for the next 2-3 years for the Kobe/Celtics/Pistons era to end.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 12:43 PM
Why not tag team Varajeo and Foster? That would be a nightmare to face for some players. Yeah . . . the more I think about it the more I like it.
Because of our shooting slumps and the sheer # of shots we take, the more offensive rebounders that we have...the better.

Hicks
05-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Why not tag team Varajeo and Foster? That would be a nightmare to face for some players. Yeah . . . the more I think about it the more I like it.

Jeff could get you something in a trade, and he's older, so that's why you make that your first choice.

While they're here together, if they are, that'd be nice, but very limiting on offense.

BlueNGold
05-31-2008, 01:25 PM
Big Z is 7'3", has averaged 78 games per year the last 6 years, led the Cavs in blocked shots, rebounds and free throw %...and IMO is underrated. He would be a nice 2-3 year solution for our C position.

Young V had an impressive 8 boards in 27 minutes. That is nearly Foster-level rebounding...and V has room to grow. He tends to be a pretty solid defender too. With Foster getting older, it is a perfect time to get some return on his services.

Tack on the #19 and this is not even close.

But more to the point, who really believes 1) We will get a better offer for JO or 2) JO will be re-signing with the Pacers in 2 years.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 01:27 PM
Jeff could get you something in a trade, and he's older, so that's why you make that your first choice.

While they're here together, if they are, that'd be nice, but very limiting on offense.
I guess it's more of a "happy problem".....I really don't mind if we have a Jeff Foster-like Player ( both the younger and older version ) on the court for an entire game.

CableKC
05-31-2008, 01:33 PM
Big Z is 7'3", has averaged 78 games per year the last 6 years, led the Cavs in blocked shots, rebounds and free throw %...and IMO is underrated. He would be a nice 2-3 year solution for our C position.

Young V had an impressive 8 boards in 27 minutes. That is nearly Foster-level rebounding...and V has room to grow. He tends to be a pretty solid defender too. With Foster getting older, it is a perfect time to get some return on his services.

Tack on the #19 and this is not even close.

But more to the point, who really believes 1) We will get a better offer for JO or 2) JO will be re-signing with the Pacers in 2 years.
I agree....it's been said that Big Z is really slow and may not necessarily fit our up-tempo offense. But I do think that with a Big Man Rotation of Murphy/Z/Foster/Varajeo, we would have options to mix-match the lineup to suit our needs. Doing so....we may even find a good Big Man to match up with Diogu :shrug:

I looked at the likely $$$ and salary cap situation in the 2009-2010 season ( when I think we have to resign Granger and Varajeo...who I think will opt out )....assuming ( worst case scenario ) that we do not move Tinsley ( and therefore affect our salary cap ), let Foster and Marquis expire...we would have 7-8 players under contract ( including any draft picks we get ) with about $44-46 mil in guaranteed $$$ owed. We would have about $20-26 mil in capspace to resign/extend any player and make additional FA signings....which should be more then enough to extend Granger and/or Varajeo.

Tom White
05-31-2008, 02:01 PM
That's what I want...options to improve this team while we wait for the next 2-3 years for the Kobe/Celtics/Pistons era to end.

Doesn't it seem like the Pacers are ALWAYS waiting for someone else's era to end?

I know you could say that about a lot of teams, as well.

It is a bit like when you ask someone what they are up to, and they answer..."Well, I'm gettin' ready to...this or that." The problem is, they spend all their time "gettin' ready", and never actually DOING anything.

Bball
05-31-2008, 02:27 PM
I wasn't going to comment but what the heck... here goes:

"-- Said he can't worry about things out of his control and is looking to be back to an All Star level and dominating this year"

JO needs to be talking about doing whatever he can to do what the team wants. He's not going to be dominating anything this year and never really has. Getting away from making this team revolve around JO's offense is one of the best things that has happened to the team and chemistry.

If the team needs him to rebound and play defense then that is what he should be doing and that should be his focus. Me Me Me... All Star... Dominating.... He needs to give it a rest.

If he wants a ring then a team-first mindset is the type of mindset he needs to embrace. It doesn't matter what team he plays for, championships aren't won by players concerned with All Star appearances and proclaiming their desire to dominate. They are won by players that do what is needed by their team.

On another subject in all of this. Why should a team that has paid him multiple millions of dollars and gotten very little in return overall suddenly limit themselves to seeing that if he is traded, it is to a contender? We should look to do with JO whatever makes the most sense for the Pacers, not JO. Whether that is keeping him, trading him to whatever team offers the best package, etc..

If a move presents itself that is 6 one way and a half dozen another, then sure consider what is best for JO... But if something comes down the road that is good for the Pacers but sucks for JO- too bad for JO. It's a business first. ...Kinda like the reason JO doesn't opt out of that 40mil plus he has coming to him over the next two years.

The contract JO is now under is PLENTY of a 'favor' to JO.

If JO's goal is to make the All Star team and 'dominate' next year, then I'd prefer to see him "Tinsley'ed" and sitting on the bench in a suit rather than messing up the chemistry we've been developing without him. He's either part of the problem or part of the solution. Talk like I've highlighted above from him is part of the problem...

-Bball

Peck
05-31-2008, 02:38 PM
Above, you note that Jamaal and Jermaine have not been part of the team for the past two seasons, but I believe this proposition is incorrect. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find two players who have been more instrumental or influential on the team over the last two seasons.

A team/franchise in the NBA has two basic aspects: (A) on the court and (B) on the books. While Aspect A ultimately determines whether or not they win the championship, Aspect B can absolutely prevent the franchise from making their Aspect A strong enough to win one.

The strongest argument for these two players "not being part of the team" comes in regard to Aspect A: on the court. The two missed a combined 83 player games this season, so they were clearly non-factors in the box score. However, that doesn't mean that they weren't huge factors over the past two season on the court.

First, JO and Jamaal played in 69 and 72 games respectively the season prior to this, accounting for 62% and 57% of the minutes played at their respective positions. Second, the structure of the team on the court was largely structured based on the idea that Jermaine would be the inside player and Jamaal would run the offense. The team was relatively open about the Golden State trade being an attempt to find players who fit better with JO, while O'Brien emphasized the role and opportunity JT would have in his offense.

They may not have contributed positively to the team, but they were certainly part of it, at least in terms of impacting the results on the floor. Regrettably, it was adversely due to their absence.

However, it is in Aspect B: on the books, that these two have, and will continue to have, the biggest role on the team. In this past season, their combined salaries of over $26mm accounted for just under 40% of the team's payroll. These two players alone chewed up 47% of the salary cap. In two years, their combined $30mm of pay may account for over 50% of the salary cap, depending on how that figure grows.

These two are the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the room. While I think there are some decent pieces on the roster (Dunleavy, Granger, maybe Williams and Foster), there is nowhere near enough talent to propel a team committing that much money to these particular players anywhere beyond (at best) an early exit in the playoffs. No, their trade(s) would not signal the completion of a rebuild, but one cannot start until it happens.

Also, while it might be possible to deal Droopy without committing to rebuilding, I don't believe the same could be said of any deal involving Jermaine. If Jermaine gets moved, the team is locked into a course of rebuilding. To make a move like the rumored Cleveland deal, then stop would be, IMO, tantamount to saying you're not skydiving by refusing to pull the rip cord after you've already jumped out of the plane.

I guess what I was saying earlier was that there really is no way for Jermaine to be here and for there actually to be a rebuilding process at the same time. Therefore, his comments about not wanting to be a part of one are moot. His presence, at least over the next two seasons, prevents the act of rebuilding. His departure signals the beginning of one.

I'm not going to try and argue semantics here and I understand what you are saying. But the Pacers are tied into the money the players are owed no matter what. If we trade them then we have to take back similar money so to me your B idea while on the surface is correct is almost moot in the fact that no matter what we are tied up.

So to me if you got back players who played 70 games or more for the same or similar money I do not see it as a rebuild, it would be an upgrade IMO.

Now if you want to throw a C out there as well then I would be all for it and in that case then I would readily admit to rebuilding.

C would be that the mentality of the team and the fan base would have to change. In other words we would no longer be allowed to hear the "if only Jermaine were healthy" etc., etc. and people just had to look to something else then I think that is true and for many fans I do believe that is the case.

I on the other hand have never based our team around J.O. so to me removing him from the picture has always been an upgrade, healthy or not.

Peck
05-31-2008, 02:42 PM
I wasn't going to comment but what the heck... here goes:

"-- Said he can't worry about things out of his control and is looking to be back to an All Star level and dominating this year"

JO needs to be talking about doing whatever he can to do what the team wants. He's not going to be dominating anything this year and never really has. Getting away from making this team revolve around JO's offense is one of the best things that has happened to the team and chemistry.

If the team needs him to rebound and play defense then that is what he should be doing and that should be his focus. Me Me Me... All Star... Dominating.... He needs to give it a rest.

If he wants a ring then a team-first mindset is the type of mindset he needs to embrace. It doesn't matter what team he plays for, championships aren't won by players concerned with All Star appearances and proclaiming their desire to dominate. They are won by players that do what is needed by their team.

On another subject in all of this. Why should a team that has paid him multiple millions of dollars and gotten very little in return overall suddenly limit themselves to seeing that if he is traded, it is to a contender? We should look to do with JO whatever makes the most sense for the Pacers, not JO. Whether that is keeping him, trading him to whatever team offers the best package, etc..

If a move presents itself that is 6 one way and a half dozen another, then sure consider what is best for JO... But if something comes down the road that is good for the Pacers but sucks for JO- too bad for JO. It's a business first. ...Kinda like the reason JO doesn't opt out of that 40mil plus he has coming to him over the next two years.

The contract JO is now under is PLENTY of a 'favor' to JO.

If JO's goal is to make the All Star team and 'dominate' next year, then I'd prefer to see him "Tinsley'ed" and sitting on the bench in a suit rather than messing up the chemistry we've been developing without him. He's either part of the problem or part of the solution. Talk like I've highlighted above from him is part of the problem...

-Bball


I'm just glad that I wasn't the one to point this out. Believe me it was the first thing that stood out in that interview to me as well.

This is now the 4th time I've heard or read J.O. say that he is going to be an all-star and dominate next season. I want to believe that he is saying this because he thinks it's what his fans want to hear, but deep inside me I believe it is because this is who he is.

Justin Tyme
05-31-2008, 03:17 PM
On another subject in all of this. Why should a team that has paid him multiple millions of dollars and gotten very little in return overall suddenly limit themselves to seeing that if he is traded, it is to a contender? We should look to do with JO whatever makes the most sense for the Pacers, not JO. Whether that is keeping him, trading him to whatever team offers the best package, etc..

If a move presents itself that is 6 one way and a half dozen another, then sure consider what is best for JO... But if something comes down the road that is good for the Pacers but sucks for JO- too bad for JO. It's a business first. ...Kinda like the reason JO doesn't opt out of that 40mil plus he has coming to him over the next two years.

The contract JO is now under is PLENTY of a 'favor' to JO.-Bball


Thank you for saying what I was about to say. It's a business, and you send JO to the team that offers the best trade no matter if they are a contender or a celler dweller. The Pacers owe JO nothing, well another 44mil, he's been well paid for his services as a Pacer.

If JO is so concerned about the Pacers and the Simons, then out of graditude to them he needs to opt out. How much more could he do for them? JO isn't about to give up 44mil by opting out. Remember it's a business, and it works as a business only in JO's favor thus the Pacers don't owe JO anything in the way of trading him to a contender.

Even if JO opted out, he wouldn't lose 44mil, but only the difference between the 44mil and what he earns the next 2 seasons from another team. He could afford to do it with what the Pacers have paid him. He got paid just as much for being injured all these years as he did playing.

I'd like to know over the years how much JO has been paid for games not played. Again, if he feels so warm and fuzzy for the Simons, he really won't have a problem opting out to help them. JO's not about to b/c the bottom line is it's a business and it's all about JO.

BlueNGold
05-31-2008, 03:17 PM
Even if JO got back to dominating...which really only occurred in a few stretches many years ago...and will not happen again...he should definitely "give it a rest".

The truth is, he needs start playing AND practicing before he even thinks about dominating. I wish he'd say "my goal is to play at least 75 games and do whatever I need to help the team win to earn the 20+M the Pacers are forking over". ...or at least something remotely close to that.

I really cannot wait until he is traded. I don't care what our record is as long as we can purge the last remnants of this embarrassing chapter...

Edit: BTW, if it gets really bad we'd have to settle for drafting our next superstar...like a Derrick Rose. So sad....

CableKC
05-31-2008, 07:10 PM
Doesn't it seem like the Pacers are ALWAYS waiting for someone else's era to end?

I know you could say that about a lot of teams, as well.

It is a bit like when you ask someone what they are up to, and they answer..."Well, I'm gettin' ready to...this or that." The problem is, they spend all their time "gettin' ready", and never actually DOING anything.
Just because we are waiting for 2-3 seasons doesn't mean that we going to do the "same old, same old". During that time we will try to build Playoff experience, build back the fan loyalty and ( hopefully ) not continue on this path of mediocrity.

With what I see the Spurs and Pistons have done ( over the last 3-4 seasons ) and what the Lakers will do over the next couple of seasons...I think that it is necessary to build team chemistry and trust among Players to get to that next level. Unfortunately, "Instant-Build-a-Championship teams" like the Celtics don't happen that often ( if at all ).

In the next 2-3 seasons, it may not mean that we win a Championship....but it ( hopefully ) means that we start building this team into a perennial 2nd round Playoff team. What's important over these next 2-3 seasons is to make the right moves and acquire/sign the right type of players and not make the mistakes that we have made over the last couple of seasons. If we do that....we can steadily build the team the right way and get the fans to return.

I'm a realist....this means that with the limitations that we have with our Financial situation, limited ability to transform this team into a Championship caliber team in a single season is unlikely....I believe that it's going to take time ( when the Celtics, Spurs, Pistons and Playoff teams like the Suns fade ) to get back to the level of dominance that we were in 3 seasons ago.

diamonddave00
06-01-2008, 12:42 AM
O’Neal Likely to Leave Indiana…but Where?
May 31st, 2008, 9:25 am by NetIncome
In an interview with Sporting News Radio’s Tim Montemayor, Jermaine O’Neal left little doubt that he wants to be traded and that he expects to be traded to “a team that has a chance to winning a championship.”

Without identifying which team he expects to play for next year, the six-time All-Star said he and team management have talked about moving on if the Pacers are rebuilding.

“I dont know what my situation is going to be like as far as next year or the next six or seven years,” said O’Neal who turns 30 in October. “I told my agent to do the business.”

“I really believe that if it comes to they’re totally into rebuilding, I believe that they will move me, if theyre going to rebuild. That’s pretty much the consistent thought that i got from the ownership and from management before I left Indianapolis.

“So I don’t think its going to come down to a sitaution where we’re going to to go back and forth, back and forth for me to be moved on because they just totally just rehauled the team,” said O’Neal.

“I think if they going to rehaul the team, then they’re will move me and not only move me in with another team, but with another team that has chance to winning a championship. That was the one thing that was said to me and really pleased me before I left Indianapolis.”

He told Montemayor, “Me and (Pacer GM) Larry (Bird) talked about it right before I left Indianapolis. We’re supposed to meet after the draft. if thats the case (that the team is rebuilding), I would prefer not to go through rebuilding.”

While agreeing his contract–”two huge years” and $44.3 million–would be hard to move, he made the case that he is recovered from a knee injury, whose severity was never fully revealed, and that “Once I address these issues with my knee this summer, I am going to be right back at all star level.”

O’Neal can opt out of his contract on June 30, a week after the draft, and twice suggested that he believes he can play another “six or seven years”. (That could indicate he is willing to opt out and accept a longer term contract with a lower initial salary than he’s owed next year.)

O’Neal said he would not pressure the Pacers into a deal, out of loyalty to team owner Herb Simon and the rest of the ownership in Indiana. “I feel loyal to these guys. I’m not going to get into a pissing battle…You see so many situations in different sports, even in basketball, where a player makes a situation really bad just before they even get out of a situation.”

But O’Neal left little doubt that while he has loyalty to the ownership–and said Donnie Walsh, now the Knick GM, “has been great to me”, there is no love lost between he and Bird. “Me and Larry haven’t had the best of relationships with each other. So that’s kind’ve been a little bit of an issue to me.”

He was particularly displeased with the way the team handled his knee injury, which he said was his only injury the last two and a half years. He said he and the team used reports of other injuries to mask the severity of his torn meniscus.

“And to tell you the truth, over the last two and a half years, it’s only been my knee situation,” he told Montemayor. “I didn’t want to tell anybody, we didn’t want to go public with it, so we kind of put it off on saying ‘okay it was a sprained ankle or something else was hurting’ just so I didn’t have to tell people I tore my meniscus. I tore my menisus and just kept playing on it and eventually it got worse. And its all been downhill from there the last two years.”

Team “management”, he hinted, let him hang out to dry.

“I was little disappointed that the team didnt step up, knowing what they knew. They knew the entire time what the situation was, that I tore my meniscus, that I chose not to have the surgery, that I chose to go against what the doctors say…for the team and be there for the team. I was disappointed by that.”

O’Neal also took a less than veiled swipe at management’s choice of players.

“The environment has gotten so bad because of all the off court incidents, its all about what happens off the court, not necessarily what happens on the court,” he said, obviously referring to the Pacers’ problems with nightclub fights, shootings, harboring fugitives and marijuana possession…and of course the Malace at the Palace.

“It’s been tough pill to swallow,” he said, noting how far the Pacers have fallen and admitting it’s all had an effect on his game. “The off-the-court situations and my knee injury has taken the fire out of me…but I decided when I sat out the last 43 games that I was going to get health. I wasn’t going to play at 30 or 40% anymore. I was just going to let people know what was really wrong with me, with my knee and really just redefine myself…get that fire burning inside of me and get in the gym…going back to stage one, totally evaluating my entire body, my entire game, making sure I can dominate again.”

So what’s the bottom line?

“Control what you can control, which is the basketball court…getting my body right, getting my mind right, getting ready for next year, whether I’m an Indiana Pacer or playing somewhere else.”

Naptown_Seth
06-01-2008, 12:48 AM
Because of our shooting slumps and the sheer # of shots we take, the more offensive rebounders that we have...the better.
I feel exactly that way. I love the Cleveland deal because you are simply adjusting contracts and PR situations. No one thinks it's a big fix, it's just ONE RUNG on the repair ladder. It's the kind of step that makes a future step reachable.



Getting away from making this team revolve around JO's offense is one of the best things that has happened to the team and chemistry.As long as you don't measure in playoff appearances you're 100% right I guess. I mean the last 2 years have been really great, terrific chemistry, no players having problems with each other, great winning approach and so on.

One thing I wish you and Peck would do on this JO front is at least wait to rip on him when something has actually worked out to back the point. I would sincerely be more than happy to concede if this team had just taken off when JO went out or was in any way winning at a better rate when he was playing "team ball" this year...which is itself utter BS. When he was in he still got tons of chances and the Pacers rarely truly ran. They hurried the ball over the HC line and then chucked the first shot they saw, but weren't running break out 3-2 high flying finishes typically.

I'm not even sticking up for JO here completely. I'm just tired of scapegoating on him or the suggestion that this season JOB didn't love posting him up just like Rick did. JO still got JO's game, the difference between Rick and JOB is that Rick would rather have some method to the madness and insisted upon careful guard play and spending more time running plays/looking for shots. But both used JO as the prime element in those plans (when available).

The truth with JO is probably more along the lines that his knee isn't going to be better, at least not after a few weeks of serious play and that he might never see a good solid season again. That's why leaning on him doesn't work out anymore.

rm1369
06-01-2008, 12:49 AM
One thing I found very interesting was JO's statement about his injury. Essentially saying he's only had one true injury - a torn meniscus - and that he made it worse by attempting to play through it and never fully having it taken care of. He says that he and the team attempted to mask the injury by sometimes lying about why he was sitting out. He also feels the team has let him "hang out to dry" with the injury situation.

I've advocated trading JO for a couple years now (as have many others), but I find the amount of hatred for him a little ridiculous. I remember JO shooting free throws left handed after injurying his shoulder so that he would be elligible to return if possible. Yet to hear most fans tell it he's simply been milking an injury for all it's worth while collecting his paycheck. If his statement on the teams handling of his injury is correct I have even less faith in management and the training staff than before.

Bball
06-01-2008, 02:01 AM
One thing I found very interesting was JO's statement about his injury. Essentially saying he's only had one true injury - a torn meniscus - and that he made it worse by attempting to play through it and never fully having it taken care of. He says that he and the team attempted to mask the injury by sometimes lying about why he was sitting out. He also feels the team has let him "hang out to dry" with the injury situation.

I've advocated trading JO for a couple years now (as have many others), but I find the amount of hatred for him a little ridiculous. I remember JO shooting free throws left handed after injurying his shoulder so that he would be elligible to return if possible. Yet to hear most fans tell it he's simply been milking an injury for all it's worth while collecting his paycheck. If his statement on the teams handling of his injury is correct I have even less faith in management and the training staff than before.

Before we throw management under the bus, what's he saying here:


“I was little disappointed that the team didnt step up, knowing what they knew. They knew the entire time what the situation was, that I tore my meniscus, that I chose not to have the surgery, that I chose to go against what the doctors say…for the team and be there for the team. I was disappointed by that.”

Whose decision was this silence or subterfuge exactly? He makes it sound like he's simply been a pawn of management at some points in the article and then here he's saying "I chose... I chose".


Jermaine O'Neal. Jermaine just needs to rehab. He has a number of exercises that he has been given to rehab and strengthen his legs and his knee in particular. We’re confident that he can get back to full speed, but it’s just going to come down to his diligence and continuing the rehab process that he spent the last half of the season working on.

This (above) is from OBrien's homework thread. JO proclaims himself cured in the current thread and ready to "dominate" and get back the the All Star game. OBrien seems to indicate his knee is not there yet and more rehab is needed in the 'homework' thread.

I think Jermaine ONeal likes to hear himself talk. ...I don't think many are still listening though.

As for JO's left-handed FT's... I've went from thinking that was pretty courageous to thinking he saw it as a potential Sportscenter moment.

Just when I'm ready to think (hope) that MAYBE JO is ready to accept the team will no longer revolve around him... accept reduced minutes (to prolong his health and effectiveness)... accept his limitations.... accept the team has better options and needs than himself.... pass the torch... etc... here he comes to dash those flickering hopes with more evidence making me think that he's an overpaid prima donna.

-Bball

imawhat
06-01-2008, 02:25 AM
“I was little disappointed that the team didnt step up, knowing what they knew. They knew the entire time what the situation was, that I tore my meniscus, that I chose not to have the surgery, that I chose to go against what the doctors say…for the team and be there for the team. I was disappointed by that.”


This is why Jermaine is a complete fool, and it shows that he'll never "get it". Ignoring the doctors and wondering why the team didn't back it up.

I'm sorry, but if I'm spending $44mil at a player, I sure as heck am not supporting him while he's out ignoring advice from experts and doing permanent damage (which he has).

At the same time, WHY DIDN'T ANYONE FORCE HIM TO SIT OUT? If he's telling the truth, that just blows my mind.

Anyway, as a player, I think Jermaine did a nice job of deferring to his teammates when he came back last season. I thought he deferred a little too much, actually, so I believe that he's willing to change his role on the court. Still, I'm not sure if it's worth the prima donna attitude.

He should be thankful he has a coach and an organization that still believes in him. Instead he kills his own trade value every offseason with this talk. If he really wanted to go, he'd keep his mouth shut.

As much as I dislike him, I think the best case scenario for everyone is if he stays in Indy and plays 75 games at a slightly higher level than he was playing at the end of last year. Ultimately, he'll be in a Pacers uniform next year.

rexnom
06-01-2008, 06:35 AM
If only we could have end of the year JO at like 10mil/year...that would be great.

rm1369
06-01-2008, 10:00 AM
Before we throw management under the bus, what's he saying here:



Whose decision was this silence or subterfuge exactly? He makes it sound like he's simply been a pawn of management at some points in the article and then here he's saying "I chose... I chose".



As for JO's left-handed FT's... I've went from thinking that was pretty courageous to thinking he saw it as a potential Sportscenter moment.

-Bball

Considering the teams "make the playoffs at all costs" mentality and the fact they continued to play him, I find it hard believe they didn't condone his decision. If the team was against his decision - why play him? They can't force him to have surgery, but they certainly control if he plays. I guess I thought management should have control of the team and it's interests. Silly me.

The free throws just show the guy can't win. If he doesn't play and takes care of his body he's a me first player than doesn't care about the team (Peja anyone?). If he tries to tough it out and play he's a glory hog. I find the hatred amazing.

avoidingtheclowns
06-01-2008, 10:51 AM
Whose decision was this silence or subterfuge exactly? He makes it sound like he's simply been a pawn of management at some points in the article and then here he's saying "I chose... I chose".

well he chose not to do the surgery but the team chose not to honestly explain/release the injury information. i don't think he is saying he was a pawn so much as saying "in order to not decrease my value around the league, they weren't really forthcoming"



This (above) is from OBrien's homework thread. JO proclaims himself cured in the current thread and ready to "dominate" and get back the the All Star game. OBrien seems to indicate his knee is not there yet and more rehab is needed in the 'homework' thread.

i'm not sure what you're getting at. o'neal is currently working out in las vegas to do strength training, etc. o'brien calls it rehab instead of "vegas bball strength training jamboree"




As for JO's left-handed FT's... I've went from thinking that was pretty courageous to thinking he saw it as a potential Sportscenter moment.

The free throws just show the guy can't win. If he doesn't play and takes care of his body he's a me first player than doesn't care about the team (Peja anyone?). If he tries to tough it out and play he's a glory hog. I find the hatred amazing.

indeed.

NuffSaid
06-01-2008, 01:13 PM
i wonder if j.o. would be willing to opt out if it facilitates his move to a contender. let's say tptb tells j.o.: "the mavs and rick carlisle really want you to go there and provide an inside presence. but your contract is so big that the mavs will be stripped if we do a matching trade. would you be willing to opt out and restructure your deal from 2 years $43m to 4 years $50m instead?"

that would make j.o. easier to move but would cost him $$$ though
This very same restructuring scenario has been mentioned before on other message boards (and perhaps even this one). I'm of the opinion that if JO would be willing to do it for another team, he should be willing to do it for the team he says he's so "loyal" to.

Anthem
06-01-2008, 04:32 PM
This very same restructuring scenario has been mentioned before on other message boards (and perhaps even this one). I'm of the opinion that if JO would be willing to do it for another team, he should be willing to do it for the team he says he's so "loyal" to.
If Donnie asked him to, I bet he would. He's probably not going to break his back helping Larry out.

Ramitt
06-01-2008, 04:35 PM
I don't blame him for not wanting to rebuild and frankly it would be silly to keep him on a rebuilding team. He should opt out if he is not happy.

Justin Tyme
06-01-2008, 05:23 PM
"IF" JO would opt out, he could let the Pacers do a sign and trade where he could get a good salary back, go to a team acceptable to him, and the Pacers could get something in return for him in salary savings and player/players. He wouldn't have to gut a team who wants to trade for him, thus there would be more interest in him by other teams.

Anthem
06-01-2008, 05:35 PM
"IF" JO would opt out, he could let the Pacers do a sign and trade where he could get a good salary back, go to a team acceptable to him, and the Pacers could get something in return for him in salary savings and player/players. He wouldn't have to gut a team who wants to trade for him, thus there would be more interest in him by other teams.
The timing doesn't work. He has to opt out before he can even have those discussions. It's problematic in this case, but good in general.

Basically he'd be taking a HUGE risk by doing that. One I wouldn't take in his place.

Justin Tyme
06-01-2008, 08:22 PM
The timing doesn't work. He has to opt out before he can even have those discussions. It's problematic in this case, but good in general.

Basically he'd be taking a HUGE risk by doing that. One I wouldn't take in his place.



You don't want to play for a contender and win a championship either, huh?

wintermute
06-01-2008, 08:33 PM
This very same restructuring scenario has been mentioned before on other message boards (and perhaps even this one). I'm of the opinion that if JO would be willing to do it for another team, he should be willing to do it for the team he says he's so "loyal" to.

we're not a contender. i'm sure j.o. thinks of himself as a loyal person, but that loyalty probably doesn't extend to tying himself down to what he views as a sinking ship.

i don't think he'd do it for donnie either, but he'd at least think about it for the cavs or mavs.

and regarding timing - it could all be pre-arranged, with j.o. opting out only when he knows a deal with another team is in place. it wouldn't even be tampering, since presumably the pacers would be doing all the talking.

wintermute
06-01-2008, 08:45 PM
He was particularly displeased with the way the team handled his knee injury, which he said was his only injury the last two and a half years. He said he and the team used reports of other injuries to mask the severity of his torn meniscus.

“And to tell you the truth, over the last two and a half years, it’s only been my knee situation,” he told Montemayor. “I didn’t want to tell anybody, we didn’t want to go public with it, so we kind of put it off on saying ‘okay it was a sprained ankle or something else was hurting’ just so I didn’t have to tell people I tore my meniscus. I tore my menisus and just kept playing on it and eventually it got worse. And its all been downhill from there the last two years.”

Team “management”, he hinted, let him hang out to dry.

“I was little disappointed that the team didnt step up, knowing what they knew. They knew the entire time what the situation was, that I tore my meniscus, that I chose not to have the surgery, that I chose to go against what the doctors say…for the team and be there for the team. I was disappointed by that.”



this is all a bit disturbing. we already know that team management is willing to fabricate injuries (tinsley, ron). so i guess it's possible that j.o. is telling the truth, that he had a major injury but the team masked it as a series of minor ones. that move certainly backfired though, since it just reinforces the notion that j.o. is "injury prone"

even worse, j.o. can apparently go against doctors' recommendations - with the team's tacit approval. yikes. we've wondered whether our training/medical staff was competent or not, given the "injury bug" that struck so many times in recent years. was the team's management (or rather, mismanagement) the real cause?

Anthem
06-01-2008, 09:33 PM
You don't want to play for a contender and win a championship either, huh?
I'm not sure I follow the logic, unless you're suggesting that Jermaine opt out to be Karl Malone.

AesopRockOn
06-01-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure I follow the logic, unless you're suggesting that Jermaine opt out to be Karl Malone.

Keep him away from those high school girls then. ;)

Anthem
06-01-2008, 09:51 PM
Keep him away from those high school girls then. ;)
Didn't he take a high school girl to prom?

OnlyPacersLeft
06-01-2008, 11:28 PM
you know besides teams like the lakers and celtics most only have one star and some very good role players. JO can't be the star anymore and he has to realize that. What is stopping us from having lets say danny granger be a star and guys like dunleavy and company be the role players around him? we need a nice center and a PG who can be consistent and i think danny can be a go to scorer. Imagine if we had Heinrich and a guy like ilgauskas...we would be pretty decent. I don't think the pacers are that far off from getting back into the playoffs. They do need a new style of offense...this chucking 3's offense is so horrible...so it's like when they don't get out in transition there isn't a whole lot of options except drive and try for pull up jumpers.

Anthem
06-02-2008, 12:00 AM
What is stopping us from having lets say danny granger be a star
Danny Granger.

avoidingtheclowns
06-02-2008, 12:15 AM
You don't want to play for a contender and win a championship either, huh?

which is better/makes more sense?

1) making $45mil for two seasons then signing a 3yr/$9mil deal with a contender

2) skipping $45mil and signing a 3yr/30mil deal

if scot pollard keeps getting signed i'm sure there would be room in 3 years for JO to sign a much smaller deal and still get the $40+mil for two seasons work (or 80 games total). i think the quote i'm about to paraphrase is from kstat, "if JO opts out of the $40mil then he is too stupid to be a pacer."

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2008, 11:13 PM
I'd like J.O to live up to his comments and not just flap his gums in the wind. Anything that spews from his mouth is just PR and not serious apparently. He can talk the talk , but he can't back it up. He would be good in a political office cause he knows how to say the right words.

Did J.O ever think he's part of the problem and why we have to rebuild ? If he doesn't want to rebuild I'd say don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. He's not been very reliable the past few seasons.

MagicRat
06-02-2008, 11:18 PM
He's not been very reliable the past few seasons.

Speaking of not very reliable the last few seasons......

http://www.saucemaster-radio.com/

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2008, 11:26 PM
Speaking of not very reliable the last few seasons......

http://www.saucemaster-radio.com/

Oh Snap , MagicRat still post here. :eek: No fear it will be returning soon. I've been testing providers and will start working on the site soon. If you like to help me test the server you can. I'll warn you though it's a little buggy and at this time only supports max 5 listeners. So if you like Hair Bands and Classic Rock feel free to check it out. The server maybe up and down at times.

67.159.44.16:7800

http://67.159.44.16:7800/listen.pls

I know both those work in WInamp. They should work in other players long as you can add a url to play and on other media players just use the first one. You can use Itunes also to listen . Just hit Ctrl + U and add http://67.159.44.16:7800/listen.pls

NuffSaid
06-03-2008, 05:16 PM
Team “management”, he hinted, let him hang out to dry.

“I was little disappointed that the team didnt step up, knowing what they knew. They knew the entire time what the situation was, that I tore my meniscus, that I chose not to have the surgery, that I chose to go against what the doctors say…for the team and be there for the team. I was disappointed by that.”
I'm surprised only a handful of people have addressed the above comments yet. Seems to me JO is as much responsible for the situation he finds himself as mgmt. Does anyone remember the year Shaq waited until just before the season began to have his surgery? I don't remember what it was for, but I do remember Shaq got ridiculed for it for months. His excuse for delaying the surgery: "I got hurt on company time so I'll have the surgery on company time," or words to the effect. JO's refusal to have the surgery done on his torn meniscus is the same absordity as Shaq's excuse for not having his surgery done sooner. Only it's worse because he's trying to lay blame on TPTB for covering up the scope of his injury rather than taking responsibility for his inaction. And to try and cover it by basically saying he took one for the team...

C'mon!

If what diamonddave00 has posted is, in fact, the entire interview, then I'm very disappointed in JO because to me the article reads more like JO is marketing himself to be traded than it does a player who wants to be here but knows the franchise is considering going in a different direction and believes he won't be a part of it NOT by his own choice, but rather because he'd be "forced" out. A few things stick out to me:


“I told my agent to do the business.”

Well, what "business" is there to be made? You're still under contract with the Pacers for 2 yrs unless you decide to exercise your player option and become a free agent. You can't get more money from this franchise unless you exercise said option and allow the franchise to negotiate a new deal. So, what "business" is their to make at this point?


“So I don’t think its going to come down to a sitaution where we’re going to to go back and forth, back and forth for me to be moved on because they just totally just rehauled the team,”

Really? Granted, the Pacers' roster has an avg of 4.1 yr NBA experience compared to the Sonics' 3.8, but when you look at experience by their starters versus the Pacers (projected) there's really no comparison:

Sonics - 2.2*
Pacers - 6.4**

* Figure alots 0 yrs for rookies (X2) for Sonics' starters, Durant and Green

** Projected starters: JO, Tinsley, Foster, Granger, Dunleavy

And considering that of all 5 Pacers starters, Tinsley is the only one where someone in mgmt has made it very clear that his return is highly unlikely, I really don't see where JO believes this team is in the rebuilding process. :confused:


“Me and (Pacer GM) Larry (Bird) talked about it right before I left Indianapolis. We’re supposed to meet after the draft. if thats the case (that the team is rebuilding), I would prefer not to go through rebuilding.”

Then opt out and take your chances on the open market!


O’Neal can opt out of his contract on June 30, a week after the draft, and twice suggested that he believes he can play another “six or seven years”.

There's the money line right there, folks...JO's proclaimation of returning to "All-Star" status. While I have no doubt that if healthy he couldn't put up All-Star level numbers, it' obvious this was nothing more than spin to place in the ear of other teams as if to say, "Hey, I'm feeling fine and believe I can really play well into my 30's." Hence, the 6-7 yr reference; JO will be 30 in October. And if you read further through the article, you'll see where JO discusses how in his opinion mgmt reported his injury wrong, essentially saying it was more their fault others got the wrong idea of how bad things were rather than himself - for NOT having the surgery when it was first suggested 2 yrs ago. It's like he's also saying, "But I've had the surgery (now) and I feel great! So, come on. There's no risk involved in taking me. I'll show I can still play up to par and then some."


“I feel loyal to these guys. I’m not going to get into a pissing battle…You see so many situations in different sports, even in basketball, where a player makes a situation really bad just before they even get out of a situation.”

Are we to take this as JO rehashing bad examples from the past where a player shot off his foot before the deal was done (i.e., Artest and Kidd's trade demands that went awry), or is JO trying to foretale of things to come with himself? Seems to me he's trying to set the groundwork to bounce by making it appear that he doesn't want to make any waves, and yet painting a casual picture that his health won't be an issue for the foreseeable future.

Now, after disecting this fine peice of sports reporting :rolleyes: I'm with Bball. If you (JO) really feel as though you can perform at All-Star level and you feel such loyalty to the Simons, DO YOUR FREAKIN' JOB, MAN! Stop marketing yourself as trait bait and show some true loyalty to the team. Instead of taking this selfish point of view and looking out for poor, pitiful #1 why not be a team player and do what's best for the team? - and in this case that means: 1) getting healthy and rehabing your knee, 2) market what JO will do for the Pacers vice what JO can better do for himself or someone else, and 3) come out and say this is where you want to be vice giving some lame statement of "if they choose to rebuild...trade me" BS. Becasue to me just because you stop short of demanding to be traded doesn't mean you still want to be here.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 12:52 AM
JO's refusal to have the surgery done on his ACL is the same absordity as Shaq's excuse for not having his surgery done sooner. Only it's worse because he's trying to lay blame on TPTB for covering up the scope of his injury rather than taking responsibility for his inaction. And to try and cover it by basically saying he took one for the team...


JO didn't delay surgury on his ACL, he delayed surgury on his muniscus.

My younger sister tore her muniscus her sophomore year of high school. She missed a few games and played the rest of the year. She never had surgury on it and still plays today, she is going to be a junior and plays Div. II. The only difference was she played a <20 games per year for her HS team, and only played 2 games a week. JO is in a much different situation, an NBA schedule is grueling. And there is no way you could hold up to back to backs with limited rest or 4 games in a week with that injury. The only options are to take some time off and let the knee heal up enough to return to the grueling schedule, or take the rest of the year off and have surgury.

It is not a debilitating injury by any means. It just requires a lot of rest to allow the healing process to take place. Surgury is an option, but not an essential one. Best to my understanding, you aren't going to cause any permanent damage by playing on it as long as you rest it and get treatment. It is painful, from what I saw my sister go through, but not a year ender or career threatening type of injury.

It's true when JO says he could have taken the rest of the year off and had surgury but chose instead to put it off and return.

pacergod2
06-04-2008, 09:06 AM
I don't believe it is his meniscus that is holding him back. The meniscus is an easy arthroscopic procedure that a lot people can walk out of the hospital. It is the ACL reconstruction that takes 18 months to fully recover from. You see some professionals playing on their knee after 6-8 months, but that isn't 100%. I feel like we will see a different Jermaine next year, and by the sounds of everything that is being said, it sounds like there has been a trade in place for a while now. Maybe since the trade deadline and him playing the last ten games of the year was just a showcase to that other team to verify he is healthy and just needs to knock the rust off, especially given his limited minutes. We won a bunch of games late with him in the lineup contributing and thats exactly what the other team wanted to see. It sounds so much like he is gone. I just hope we get a good haul for him, and by that I don't mean a ton of contract burden.

Taterhead
06-04-2008, 10:55 AM
I don't believe it is his meniscus that is holding him back. The meniscus is an easy arthroscopic procedure that a lot people can walk out of the hospital. It is the ACL reconstruction that takes 18 months to fully recover from. You see some professionals playing on their knee after 6-8 months, but that isn't 100%. I feel like we will see a different Jermaine next year, and by the sounds of everything that is being said, it sounds like there has been a trade in place for a while now. Maybe since the trade deadline and him playing the last ten games of the year was just a showcase to that other team to verify he is healthy and just needs to knock the rust off, especially given his limited minutes. We won a bunch of games late with him in the lineup contributing and thats exactly what the other team wanted to see. It sounds so much like he is gone. I just hope we get a good haul for him, and by that I don't mean a ton of contract burden.


I've always felt Jermaines injury problems were caused by him bulking up a few years back. He needs to slim back down to around 240 where he was when he got here.

You're right though, it does sound like a trade is imminent. I hope to god they don't give him away because there is a good chance he'll play very well for whatever team lands him next year. It's the kind of move that will finally cost Bird his job and leave us in a rut for years to come.

I hope they hold onto him because I don't see any deals out there that will give us what we need in return. He not old despite what some people make it sound like, and he has not had one major injury just a lot of nagging ones lately. And despite his long career in the NBA he hasn't logged that many games, he's only played in 725 games. Equivilent to about 9 full years. And 211 of them were in Portland where averaged less than 55 games played and 12 MPG. He is still young and has atleast 5 good years left, IMO.

count55
06-04-2008, 10:59 AM
I've always felt Jermaines injury problems were caused by him bulking up a few years back. He needs to slim back down to around 240 where he was when he got here.

You're right though, it does sound like a trade is imminent. I hope to god they don't give him away because there is a good chance he'll play very well for whatever team lands him next year. It's the kind of move that will finally cost Bird his job and leave us in a rut for years to come.

I hope they hold onto him because I don't see any deals out there that will give us what we need in return. He not old despite what some people make it sound like, and he has not had one major injury just a lot of nagging ones lately. And despite his long career in the NBA he hasn't logged that many games, he's only played in 725 games. Equivilent to about 9 full years. And 211 of them were in Portland where averaged less than 55 games played and 12 MPG. He is still young and has atleast 5 good years left, IMO.

I agree...it's sort of a repeat of what happened with Smits. Brown got here, said "Screw bulking up, just use your natural skills and take some pressure off your feet", and Smits became productive.

The other thing I think took a toll were the three years he played essentially without a break...going from regular season to playoffs to US National Team and back again.

I'd love to see JO come back in somewhere between 240 and 250...I think it would help his career immensely.

NuffSaid
06-04-2008, 01:02 PM
JO didn't delay surgury on his ACL, he delayed surgury on his muniscus.
Ooops! My bad...don't know where that came from...kinda lost focus there for a second...thanks for the correction.


My younger sister tore her muniscus her sophomore year of high school. She missed a few games and played the rest of the year. She never had surgury on it and still plays today, she is going to be a junior and plays Div. II. The only difference was she played a <20 games per year for her HS team, and only played 2 games a week. JO is in a much different situation, an NBA schedule is grueling. And there is no way you could hold up to back to backs with limited rest or 4 games in a week with that injury. The only options are to take some time off and let the knee heal up enough to return to the grueling schedule, or take the rest of the year off and have surgury.

It is not a debilitating injury by any means. It just requires a lot of rest to allow the healing process to take place. Surgury is an option, but not an essential one. Best to my understanding, you aren't going to cause any permanent damage by playing on it as long as you rest it and get treatment. It is painful, from what I saw my sister go through, but not a year ender or career threatening type of injury.

It's true when JO says he could have taken the rest of the year off and had surgury but chose instead to put it off and return.

And that brings me back to the question I asked in the "JO/Tinsley Injury... (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=37539&highlight=knee+injury)" thread as to who was really holding JO back at the time he decided to sit out. Per the SportingNews interview, JO made the decision not to have surgery but instead opted to accept treatment and continue to play. So, why then is he so upset with mgmt on this matter? I mean, what exactly were they suppose to say?

I could see them remaining secretive about his injury before the trade deadline if they were, in fact, fielding offers to trade him. No team wants a guy who's suppose to help move their team forward if what they're getting is "damaged goods" and they have to wait before seeing the benefits of their trade. So, I can see mgmt downplaying JO's injury and taking a wait-and-see approach to it for the sake of keeping his trade value as high as they possibly could w/o being low-balled to death. But after the trade deadline had passed I think they could have been alittle more straight-forward concerning the extent of JO's injury and put a time-table on how long he was expected to be out, but overall with this type of injury I doubt there was anything more that could have been said or done about it.

Oneal07
06-04-2008, 07:19 PM
On the other hand, think back to last year. Would you (then) have considered the Celtics or the Lakers as championship contenders?

Likely not.

Now look at this season. What teams are in a position similar to the Celts and Lakers of a year ago? Does adding an O'Neal to the mix do for them what adding Gasol did for LA?

I think you have to look at teams that are maybe not currently contenders, but, with the right addition(s), could be. For example, would O'Neal have helped get Atlanta past Boston? Could be.

I just don't see how having a young team is a bad thing. Look at the Pens right now (Yeah IT's hockey) Got a solid young core and playing in the Stanley Cup Finals. It's all about what you have. Going straight to a "contender" doesn't mean your gonna win it all, Just ask Jason Kidd. Jermaine should stay here if he's smart, cause where else is he gonna go? If he wants to go to a contender he should opt out and take less money. Lakers last year was a good team, they had a nice record until all the injuries came. Add another Veteran to the team (Gasol And Fisher) and you got a VERY solid team. I think with the right moves this summer, the PAcers can have a quick turnaround. They are not as bad as they seem. IMO. You can get rid of Tinsley and Daniels and get very solid veterans to play along side JErmaine

OnlyPacersLeft
06-04-2008, 09:38 PM
they really should just hang onto JO. Wait till he gets out of his contract in a few years then with cap space galore try and sign for someone. Why trade him to some team and take back not even half less talent and MORE bloated contracts?

Smoothdave1
06-04-2008, 09:50 PM
The thing about salary cap room is that Indiana isn't going to attract the marquee free agents like Lebron, Kobe, Howard, Duncan, KG, etc.

Look at the two teams in the NBA finals: How many of the marquee players were signed as free agents? Kobe, Gasol, Odom, KG, Allen, Pierce, etc. were all either drafted or traded for. That's why some have advocated trading JO for a player(s) and/or draft picks.

Anthem
06-04-2008, 10:13 PM
And that brings me back to the question I asked in the "JO/Tinsley Injury... (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=37539&highlight=knee+injury)" thread as to who was really holding JO back at the time he decided to sit out. Per the SportingNews interview, JO made the decision not to have surgery but instead opted to accept treatment and continue to play. So, why then is he so upset with mgmt on this matter? I mean, what exactly were they suppose to say?
I've been meaning to start another thread with my "theory" but I haven't had time and it works fine here anyway.

Short version: Jermaine continued to play after the injury because the team needed him and because he was loyal to Donnie Walsh. The medical opinion was that he wouldn't damage himself by playing on it, but it would hurt and he'd have to deal with the pain. He went with it. During the season, though, Bird implied that Jermaine's injury was due to a lack of conditioning. This pissed Jermaine off, and things haven't been good between them since. So when it became apparent that Donnie really was going to quit after this season, and that the team wasn't going anywhere anyway, Jermaine shut himself down, even though it screwed with Bird's trade to Jersey. The reality was, though, that Jermaine wasn't going to make the sacrifice of playing with a serious injury for anybody except Donnie, be it Larry Bird or the New Jersey Nets.

EDIT: You can say a lot of things about Jermaine, some of them bad. But saying the dude doesn't work just gets you laughed at. He works HARD pretty much all year round, and has for a while. As has been noted elsewhere, some of his problems actually come from working too hard (playing in summer, etc).

Anthem
06-04-2008, 10:21 PM
they really should just hang onto JO. Wait till he gets out of his contract in a few years then with cap space galore try and sign for someone. Why trade him to some team and take back not even half less talent and MORE bloated contracts?
No, we won't. This has been explained to you several times. Jermaine opting out DOES NOT give us cap space unless we're under the cap (i.e., Murphy and Dunleavy and Tinsley opt out as well).

NuffSaid
06-04-2008, 10:41 PM
And speaking of contract options, looks like it's official. JO won't opt out of his contract (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/SPORTS04/80604055/1088). So, unless there's a trade he'll be here for the next 2-years.

Anthem,

I like your rational for JO sitting out and taking time to heal from his knee injury. Would certainly explain a few things and I can certainly see how JO would get tic'd off for some of Bird's comments, i.e., lack of a leader in the locker room, poor conditioning on JO's part, etc., etc. I'm definitely with you on JO's commitment to physical conditioning. It's only been three years ago that he hasn't been able to train exactly as he'd wish. That's when all the injuries started to pile up. But even with injuries, JO continues to give it his all in preparation for the next season. Say what you will about him, I give him due credit in this department. And as I've said before, I'd still take a gimpy JO just about any day of the week 'cause he'd still give you reasonable production no matter what.

(Sidenote: The interview kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but he still has my support.)

Bball
06-05-2008, 02:00 AM
Well... Since we're speculating here's how I read it:

I don't read it as JO being angry that TPTB 'lied' or otherwise 'obscured' his injury report nor do I read it as JO being miffed that he was required to play on it. He basically says himself it was his decision to continue playing and it was his idea to keep the injury situation muddy. At the least he's saying that is what both parties wanted/agreed with. Why then would he be angry about that?

What I think JO is angry about is that TPTB didn't paint him as a warrior, playing thru injury, a leader willing to sacrifice his body for the good of the team. He wanted credit for it... some glory... Instead he got nothing but a place in the lineup. No pressers declaring him tougher than nails and a true face of the franchise. No regular columns on Pacers.com making excuses for his play and explaining what a dedicated player he was for making such a sacrifice in the face of such great pain. Instead, rumors flowed talking about how they would like to move him.

So he got pi$$ed... and when he got word of the potential NJ trade he opted to put the screws to the Pacers by sitting out and submarining what little was left of his trade value.

I hate using the term prima donna but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you have to start to wonder.

I'll repeat what I said earlier- JO needs to stop talking about dominating games and getting back to the All Star game. He needs to ask the team what they need from him and he needs to STFU and do it to the best of his ability. They don't need him trying to dominate and they don't need him playing to try to make the All Star game. They need him playing to make the team around him better, playing not as the #1 option on offense, and make the Pacers a team that is hard to beat.

The ironic thing is, if JO would just do that and accept it, he'd likely end up with more accolades, accomplishments, and happier teammates and fans than he ever will by trying to be 'the man'.

.02,
Bball

Taterhead
06-05-2008, 03:41 AM
Ooops! My bad...don't know where that came from...kinda lost focus there for a second...thanks for the correction.



And that brings me back to the question I asked in the "JO/Tinsley Injury... (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=37539&highlight=knee+injury)" thread as to who was really holding JO back at the time he decided to sit out. Per the SportingNews interview, JO made the decision not to have surgery but instead opted to accept treatment and continue to play. So, why then is he so upset with mgmt on this matter? I mean, what exactly were they suppose to say?

I could see them remaining secretive about his injury before the trade deadline if they were, in fact, fielding offers to trade him. No team wants a guy who's suppose to help move their team forward if what they're getting is "damaged goods" and they have to wait before seeing the benefits of their trade. So, I can see mgmt downplaying JO's injury and taking a wait-and-see approach to it for the sake of keeping his trade value as high as they possibly could w/o being low-balled to death. But after the trade deadline had passed I think they could have been alittle more straight-forward concerning the extent of JO's injury and put a time-table on how long he was expected to be out, but overall with this type of injury I doubt there was anything more that could have been said or done about it.

Yeah, I think the state of the team definately affected thier approach. I'm sure all this played into the decision making. His knee injury really thwarted any move the Pacers were going to make. If he has the surgury he is untradable, if he doesn't he is barely tradeable, and if he played his production would slip and he would lose most of his value. So it's hard to gauge what the Pacers plans were. However I doubt they are viewing Jermaine as a must go. He is when healthy thier best player and with him for 70+ games we likely would have made the playoffs fairly easily last year.

I honestly think he gets one more year to boost his value unless they get offered a young emerging star player, which I doubt will happen. If he plays well he will be very sought after next summer. Even if he tears his ACL and misses another year he will still have a lot of value due to his massive expiring deal.

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2008, 10:24 AM
As I somewhat did earlier in the thread, I agree with Nuff's view on this. IF JO is "fully healthy", enough to play well beyond this deal, and can do so at something close to his former level, then the team IS NOT REBUILDING ANYMORE.

You drop a true All-Star PF with the new found vet savvy and maturity on-court that JO has shown (no more snaps, fingers and very little lingering to argue calls) then you've just pulled a Gasol deal. It costs you NOTHING to add an all-star PF to the team if JO just returns fully healthy and that's insta-rebuild.


Like I said, the irony of this is that it's JO himself that has the Pacers in rebuild mode.



And I totally agree with Bball's last post. I don't quite think that makes him a prima donna, people do want credit for their sacrifices rather than being thrown under the bus. To me this is a key fault of Bird, he's taken the team's top player and made him an enemy almost from the start. I don't know what kind of quality result Bird expected to have by calling him out in the press right off the bat, but to me it's clear that this is how the relationship has progressed since that point. It feels like Bird just keeps on kicking at him and JO's slightly prima attitude reacts very poorly to it.

Would it have been so bad for TPTB to nip some of the JO press rips and to glad hand him behind closed doors as well? JO toughs it out and feels appreciated, you get better play and more team harmony. Or you can make it into a p***ing match as Larry has done (not unlike another Larry's own main fault).

OnlyPacersLeft
06-05-2008, 06:51 PM
ok how about this pacer fans... JO + w/e for Chauncey Billups and w/e....
billups would be awesome on this team!