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eldubious
05-27-2008, 04:01 PM
1. Trade JO for Hinrich/Hughes, and draft Love/Jordan. Hinrich is a top ten PG and Hughes has an expiring contract in two years. Moving Tinsley or Daniels make Hughes contract more absorbable.
Adding a young big to the equation to replace JO would set the future for the Pacers.

2. Draft a young big like Love/Jordan and trade back into the first to draft PG Augustine. The Sixers, Raptors, and the Magic are a couple of teams looking to move their pick. Trading Foster for a mid-round pick makes alot of sense.

jeffg-body
05-27-2008, 05:01 PM
I would be ok with either situation. I like Hinrich, but if we take Hughes there had better be a combination in there to get rid of Tinsley.

blanket
05-27-2008, 05:26 PM
a more realistic pick-at-11-then-trade-back-into-1st combination might be Augustin at 11 then trade into mid/late first for someone like Speights. Or, if you've already got Hinrich as your starting PG, forget Augustin and draft big at 11 (Love, Jordan) then trade into mid/late first for someone like Rush or CDR.

Merz
05-27-2008, 07:47 PM
Hinrich is a top ten PG

If you expect Hinrich to be a top ten point guard then you are going to be very dissapointed. I'm not against Hinrich being on the Pacers, but it seems some people seem to overate him. I like his effort on D but the quicker point guards are still going to give the Pacers alot of trouble. I think the Pacers need a point who is better at dribble penetration than Hinrich.

But I guess its better than nothing.

millertime90
05-28-2008, 01:25 AM
I could accept that first trade idea if we could somehow get Thabo or Tyrus in return. Hinrich is a very solid point guard. The second idea I would have to think about.

BBALL56HACKER
05-28-2008, 06:15 AM
I would prefer to get Gooden istead of Hughes ( he has 1 year left) plus would NOT trade Foster at all ( he also on last year). We cannot afford to get rid of all of are bigs and getting just guards .I do like Love/ Jordan at 11 then moving back in the draft and looking to getting a shooter. Just my opion on this

D-BONE
05-28-2008, 07:18 AM
If you expect Hinrich to be a top ten point guard then you are going to be very dissapointed. I'm not against Hinrich being on the Pacers, but it seems some people seem to overate him. I like his effort on D but the quicker point guards are still going to give the Pacers alot of trouble. I think the Pacers need a point who is better at dribble penetration than Hinrich.

But I guess its better than nothing.

Agreed on both counts. Yes an upgrade. No not a top-10 point. Or at least qualitatively behind most other top-10 points in terms of talent and performance. I'm not absolutely against a move for Hinrich but I think you still have to probably draft, or at least acquire, another PG who might grow into that role.

BillS
05-28-2008, 08:01 AM
If you expect Hinrich to be a top ten point guard then you are going to be very dissapointed.

At this point I'd be happy with a top-20 PG who is a valid starter.

Haggard
05-28-2008, 09:59 AM
I'm very open to drafting Jordan if he is still around at 11

Justin Tyme
05-28-2008, 08:54 PM
I could accept that first trade idea if we could somehow get Thabo or Tyrus in return. Hinrich is a very solid point guard. The second idea I would have to think about.


I'd love to get Sefalosha. Ever since the Bulls got Hughes, he has been left withering on the vine. I was hoping he would drop down to the Pacers in the 06 draft, but the 76ers drafted him at 13 only to trade him to Chicago for Carney. I immediately stated that was a mistake by the 76ers, for Carney will never be the player Sefalosha will be.

As for the Pacers being able to get him, especially in this trade scenario, is highly doubtful.

Shade
05-28-2008, 10:25 PM
Love is being rumored to possibly go Top 5. There's no way he's still on the board at #11.

travmil
05-28-2008, 11:22 PM
The best scenario for the P's would be to stay put at 11 and get Westbrook, Jordan or Augustine, then take Bill Walker in the second round if he's still there. I drool at the thought of Walker with a PG who will actually pass. If there's a reasonable opportunity to move JO or Tins, you take it. And by reasonable I mean they don't insist on Granger or Dun as the throw in.

rexnom
05-29-2008, 03:16 AM
The best scenario for the P's would be to stay put at 11 and get Westbrook, Jordan or Augustine, then take Bill Walker in the second round if he's still there. I drool at the thought of Walker with a PG who will actually pass. If there's a reasonable opportunity to move JO or Tins, you take it. And by reasonable I mean they don't insist on Granger or Dun as the throw in.
I think that with an Augustine-Walker-Granger core, you've got something decent going.

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 08:04 AM
I think that with an Augustine-Walker-Granger core, you've got something decent going.


I have too many feelings of doubts about Augustine, especially his size and ability to play "D" in the NBA. I'd rather have Westbrook than Augustin.

Walker on the other hand is interesting, but he'll be gone b4 the Pacers draft in the 2nd round. If the Pacers take a PG such as Westbrook/Augustine, then I'd like to see them take Trent Plaisted in the 2nd round as a big.

My hopes would be that Bird, that's extremely wishful thinking on my part that Bird could pull it off, could pick up another 1st round pick in the early 20's or at least a top 1-7 pick in the 2nd round. I'm looking for a couple of potential 1st dropping into the 2nd round with some players stock increasing thru the invitations and private workouts. I'd like Spreights as a big who should be available in the early 20's.

If Bird played his cards right and the stars are in line properly, the Pacers could possibly pick up an extra pick or two, and could really pick up some nice talent in the draft for the Pacers for the future if he drafted wisely. Or is this just dreams from the hopeful, for this is Bird I'm talking about. The probable best case scenario is Bird just doesn't screw up the 2 picks the Pacers have by drafting a couple of James Whites. I truly cringe at the thought of Bird doing the drafting. JMOAA

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 09:53 AM
The Best Case Scenario is to keep Jermaine O'neal. You will find some team in the West desperate to acquire a big man come trade deadline and be able to acquire a late first round pick next year.
I am for taking the best available player at 11. We should have a player targeted that will be on the board & fits our system ie Speights, Joe Alexander, Westbrook, or D Jordan. (I personally like Nicholas Batum the best)
The best move we could make in the off season is to trade Tinsley to the Hornets for Morris Peterson.

DGPR
05-29-2008, 10:00 AM
If we are up to pick in the second round and Bill Walker is still on the board, I hope Larry pulls the trigger.

Speed
05-29-2008, 10:00 AM
The best move we could make in the off season is to trade Tinsley to the Hornets for Morris Peterson.

I love your enthusiasm, but this is the farthest thing in the world that makes sense to me for New Orleans. It's like saying the Lakers should trade Derek Fisher for Vince Carter. I know there's a better example, but thats all I can think of right now.

travmil
05-29-2008, 10:32 AM
Walker on the other hand is interesting, but he'll be gone b4 the Pacers draft in the 2nd round...

I disagree. Most of the mocks have him going in the mid 2nd in the 40-48 range, so there's a chance he'll be there. Even if he's not Richard Roby, who's been in college for about 16 years now, will still be there if you're looking for a SG. Shan Foster and J.R. Giddens are also solid SG's in the 2nd round. I was also pretty high on Jamont Gordon in the 2nd but he pulled out of the draft yesterday. Only problem I see is that if they DO get Augustine at 11 they will probably go big in the 2nd. One thing I have noticed while searching the net, 99% of the mocks have the Pacers taking Augustine at 11.

Bridge
05-29-2008, 10:55 AM
I disagree. Most of the mocks have him going in the mid 2nd in the 40-48 range, so there's a chance he'll be there. Even if he's not Richard Roby, who's been in college for about 16 years now, will still be there if you're looking for a SG. Shan Foster and J.R. Giddens are also solid SG's in the 2nd round. Only problem I see is that if they DO get Augustine at 11 they will probably go big in the 2nd. One thing I have noticed while searching the net, 99% of the mocks have the Pacers taking Augustine at 11.


When have we ever followed the mock drafts? Anyone remember a recent pick of Fred Jones? I have my doubts on most of those "experts" anyway. Just because they're on tv doesn't mean they know anything. If they were that great they would be getting job offers left and right. We are at the mercy of the teams infront of us. One of those players the "experts" picked to go earlier could slip down, or a team could pick Augustine before we even get a shot at him.

We have to take things slow right now. We can't fix all of our problems this year. I am sure ol' Bird Brain has a plan for what we're going to do over the next few years.

I just want us to dump salary, JO, and Tinsley. If we can get rid of those three, we will be on the right road. If we can get back pieces to build a decent team then fine. We just need to get short contracts and wait for others to expire. There is nothing else we can do.

travmil
05-29-2008, 10:59 AM
When have we ever followed the mock drafts?

Oh for cryin out loud, learn to read. I'm not saying that the Pacers are going to pick exactly like the mocks. I'm trying to demonstrate the groups of players that will be available around both of the Pacers picks.

Bridge
05-29-2008, 11:15 AM
Oh for cryin out loud, learn to read. I'm not saying that the Pacers are going to pick exactly like the mocks. I'm trying to demonstrate the groups of players that will be available around both of the Pacers picks.


I am from southern Indiana, and it's easy to assume that we can't read down here. There is no need to be rude and insult my intelligence. I was not attacking you.


Almost everyone on this board is following those mock drafts as gospel. I was simply making a reminder that those things are never right. Calm down buddy.

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 11:48 AM
I love your enthusiasm, but this is the farthest thing in the world that makes sense to me for New Orleans. It's like saying the Lakers should trade Derek Fisher for Vince Carter. I know there's a better example, but thats all I can think of right now.

I do not think Morris Peterson is a better player than Jamaal Tinsley. Tinsley & CP3 could/would work very well together. Tinsley is an upgrade over Pargo & Byron Scott was running with those two (Pargo/CP3) during the playoffs. Remember we are friendly with the Hornets ie Andrew Betts deal.

Speed
05-29-2008, 12:35 PM
I do not think Morris Peterson is a better player than Jamaal Tinsley. Tinsley & CP3 could/would work very well together. Tinsley is an upgrade over Pargo & Byron Scott was running with those two (Pargo/CP3) during the playoffs. Remember we are friendly with the Hornets ie Andrew Betts deal.

I mean no disrespect, but I disagree with every point except that Pargo/CP3 did play together in the playoffs, which is a fact.

I think Peterson is better and doesn't dominate the ball and is healthier.

I think CP3 and Tinsley are mostly ONLY effective with the ball in their hands. CP3 being maybe the best player in the league or top 5 for sure and Tinsley being well Tinsley, I hate to even compare them in the same sentence.

I'd take Pargo over Tinsley anyday. Pargo is quick, can defend, streaky but can shoot, athletic, almost all of Pargo's mistakes are by commission, not ommission like JT, that's the biggest thing.

You can run CP3 and Pargo together in stretches because Pargo can drive (and finish) and shoot (spotting up), Tinsley can't shoot and when he drives, it isn't to pass (anymore) its mostly to slop up a poor/low percentage shot.

Plus there's the whole health thing for Tinsley, the contract thing for Tinsley, the whole late to practice/out all night/not putting the team as a priority/pouting during games reputation.

I'm not saying potential talent wise it doesn't match, JT is talent wise right there with MoPete, but those days of potential are over for JT.

I've seen it said on here and I'd agree, JT needs to play for Nellie and roam free in Golden State, back up Baron Davis and play beside Baron Davis, just because they Jack (pun intended) enough bad shots for everyone to get some.

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 01:30 PM
I do not think Tinsley is a bad player at all. He just needs a change of scenary. I do not think Pargo is better than Tinsley either. He is just quicker.

count55
05-29-2008, 03:20 PM
I do not think Tinsley is a bad player at all. He just needs a change of scenary. I do not think Pargo is better than Tinsley either. He is just quicker.

This is kinda like the old fortune cookie joke. You know, where you read the fortune, then insert the words "in bed" at the end? Except here, you take everything good there is to say about JT and insert the words "when healthy" at the end.

In both cases, it may be absolutely true, it's just that the instances of being "when healthy" are too spotty to count on.

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 03:28 PM
I question his attitude more than his health. Notice how his injury came up last year after he was criticized for shooting too much in that overtime loss to Phoenix. He needs a new team, heck he was great after Carlile benched him in favor of Kenny Anderson. Tinsley would be a good fit for the Hornets.

count55
05-29-2008, 03:42 PM
I question his attitude more than his health. Notice how his injury came up last year after he was criticized for shooting too much in that overtime loss to Phoenix. He needs a new team, heck he was great after Carlile benched him in favor of Kenny Anderson. Tinsley would be a good fit for the Hornets.

Yes, I always thought Carlisle was good for Tinsley because he basically acted as his judgment (which Droopy is sorely lacking), but most disagreed with that take.

However, though Tinsley was great during stretches after coming back that year, you'll recall he was still injured down the stretch and in the playoffs, managing only 3 minutes in the decisive game 6 vs. Detroit.

I think, for the most part under Carlisle, his injuries were legit. I think it's fair to question his threshhold for pain throughout his career, but I think the only time that his absence was more pouting/attitude than physical (and perhaps mental) fragility was this past season.

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 04:04 PM
New Orleans is a good destination for him but they may take Lawson or Chalmes with their late first round pick. This thread is entitled best case scenario for the Pacers and I believe the best case scenario is no Jamaal!

YoSoyIndy
05-29-2008, 07:44 PM
I am from southern Indiana, and it's easy to assume that we can't read down here. There is no need to be rude and insult my intelligence. I was not attacking you.


Almost everyone on this board is following those mock drafts as gospel. I was simply making a reminder that those things are never right. Calm down buddy.

What do you propose we follow as a guideline for the draft? It is easy to say what you shouldn't do, but much harder to give your own proposal.

Obviously an expert's mock draft isn't the gospel, but the experts you reference have more inside knowledge than any of us. Sure, they will never be 100% right, but that's not the expectation. The expectation is to give us a general idea of where a player will fall on draft night. Generally speaking, they are pretty accurate.

Pacers4Life
05-29-2008, 08:47 PM
I like the prospect of getting 11A. russell westbrook or 11B. d.j augustine then trading back into the 1st round for a BIG prospect: JaVale McGee, Mareese Speights (hes for real), Koufos, Donte Green

eldubious
05-29-2008, 11:03 PM
There's better value in picking up a big first (Jordan), then trading back in to draft Augustine, who could easily drop into the 20's.

Anthem
05-29-2008, 11:05 PM
There's better value in picking up a big first (Jordan), then trading back in to draft Augustine, who could easily drop into the 20's.
Want to make a wager?

Although it may be wishful thinking on my part, as I'm absolutely praying that he goes top-10 to preclude Larry from picking him.

YoSoyIndy
05-30-2008, 07:54 AM
There's better value in picking up a big first (Jordan), then trading back in to draft Augustine, who could easily drop into the 20's.

So let me get this straight -- it is better to draft Michael Jordan than Augustine? ;)

Here's the thing -- I feel it would be easier for the Pacers to move down than it would to put together enough value for the top pick. Put yourselves in the Bulls' shoes -- what would you want from the Pacers to give up your 1st pick? I can't think of anything.

eldubious
06-01-2008, 05:34 PM
So let me get this straight -- it is better to draft Michael Jordan than Augustine? ;)

Here's the thing -- I feel it would be easier for the Pacers to move down than it would to put together enough value for the top pick. Put yourselves in the Bulls' shoes -- what would you want from the Pacers to give up your 1st pick? I can't think of anything.

Huh? The Pacers wouldn't trade for the #1 pick. They would take Kevin Love or De'Andre Jordan with the #11 pick and trade back into the first round (15-20) to take Augustine. Teams do it all the time; Orlando did it with Howard/Nelson in 2004 and Portland did it with Aldridge/Roy/Rodriguez in 2006. It is the recipe for building a contending team for the future.

eldubious
06-02-2008, 02:43 PM
According to IndyStar, the Pacers have scheduled a workout for Ty Lawson. It makes the trading down or back in theory more valid.

count55
06-02-2008, 02:51 PM
According to IndyStar, the Pacers have scheduled a workout for Ty Lawson. It makes the trading down or back in theory more valid.

Not necessarily. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the Pacers would consider him at 11. Not saying I'd be happy about it, but just saying it's really risky to just make a leap like that.

millertime90
06-02-2008, 02:52 PM
According to IndyStar, the Pacers have scheduled a workout for Ty Lawson. It makes the trading down or back in theory more valid.

Ty Lawson is one hell of a player. In about 12 fewer minutes per game, Lawson averaged equal assists, a much higher assist to turnover ratio, equal rebounds, a higher efficiency rating, and his points per game would have translated to Augustin's given equal minutes. Lawson is also the better defender.

croz24
06-03-2008, 01:31 AM
Ty Lawson is one hell of a player. In about 12 fewer minutes per game, Lawson averaged equal assists, a much higher assist to turnover ratio, equal rebounds, a higher efficiency rating, and his points per game would have translated to Augustin's given equal minutes. Lawson is also the better defender.

there just isn't that much of a difference imo between augustin, lawson, or singletary. you could throw others in there too, but statistically and visually, they are essentially the same.

Will Galen
06-03-2008, 07:37 AM
Obviously an expert's mock draft isn't the gospel, but the experts you reference have more inside knowledge than any of us. Sure, they will never be 100% right, but that's not the expectation. The expectation is to give us a general idea of where a player will fall on draft night. Generally speaking, they are pretty accurate.

Yep!

However a few years ago Bird did say the Pacers had pegged the first 14 or so players taken in the draft. Most teams know who other teams are interested in and who they are likely to pick. It doesn't always go the way expected though.

That's why teams not only try to determine how other teams will pick and thus who will likely be there when they pick, but they also put the players in the order they would pick them. Bird has said when Danny dropped to us at #17 that he was number 4 on the Pacers board. I bet that was exciting! Everyone was probably holding their breath.

And those of you that don't have faith in Bird getting it right, it's not just him making picks. All the coach's and the entire scouting department are involved.

And those of you that think Danny Granger was a no brainer when it got down to him, that's not true at all, because Gerald Greene was still on the board too.

The following is what Chad Ford had to say, but he wasn't alone. A lot of experts were high on Green, including a few self styled experts on this board.

Ford quote; The top high school player in the country and one of the draft's best athletes is still very raw, but once he learns how to play, watch out. The Lakers have been trying to move up to get him.

Justin Tyme
06-03-2008, 08:48 AM
Yep!

However a few years ago Bird did say the Pacers had pegged the first 14 or so players taken in the draft. Most teams know who other teams are interested in and who they are likely to pick. It doesn't always go the way expected though.

That's why teams not only try to determine how other teams will pick and thus who will likely be there when they pick, but they also put the players in the order they would pick them. Bird has said when Danny dropped to us at #17 that he was number 4 on the Pacers board. I bet that was exciting! Everyone was probably holding their breath.

And those of you that don't have faith in Bird getting it right, it's not just him making picks. All the coach's and the entire scouting department are involved.

And those of you that think Danny Granger was a no brainer when it got down to him, that's not true at all, because Gerald Greene was still on the board too.

The following is what Chad Ford had to say, but he wasn't alone. A lot of experts were high on Green, including a few self styled experts on this board.

Ford quote; The top high school player in the country and one of the draft's best athletes is still very raw, but once he learns how to play, watch out. The Lakers have been trying to move up to get him.


Granger was a no brainer for Bird. Granger had 3-4 years college BB under his belt, and Green was a HS'er. Pacers were burned with the last HS'er they drafted that had POTENTIAL! How is that HS'er, with all that POTENTIAL, doing now, and he's playing for what NBA team?

Chad Ford can say a lot of things, but you shouldn't believe it's gospel. It was a no brainer decision for Bird to draft Granger, ask Danny Ainge.

Justin Tyme
06-03-2008, 09:01 AM
Will:

When GG got cut towards the end of this past season I was one that wanted Bird to pick him up. I believed he was worth taking a chance on, and still do. I felt he might flourish in JOB's system. I was hoping all that "potential" might just come out with him. Bird signed a couple of low cost high return players last season in Rush and Diener, and I felt Greene fell in that category. Not a lot of other people had the same view I had. JMOAA

MyFavMartin
06-03-2008, 11:13 AM
Pacers were burned with the last HS'er they drafted that had POTENTIAL! How is that HS'er, with all that POTENTIAL, doing now, and he's playing for what NBA team?

Yes, but Bender has serious injuries. What's GG's excuse?

Maybe he could borrow one from Hulk.

Justin Tyme
06-03-2008, 01:43 PM
What's GG's excuse?


What was Billups and Nash's excuses for taking so long for their potential to come to finally be the players they are? And how many seasons and teams did it take?

Yes, JB had injury problems, but "potential" that never comes to fruition is a waste no matter what the circumstances are. I'm not saying GG will ever reach his "potential", but why not take a chance he might? He'd be a cheap low-risk high-reward gamble. Bird seems to like those kind. JMOAA

Bball
06-03-2008, 01:53 PM
Granger was a no brainer for Bird. Granger had 3-4 years college BB under his belt, and Green was a HS'er. Pacers were burned with the last HS'er they drafted that had POTENTIAL! How is that HS'er, with all that POTENTIAL, doing now, and he's playing for what NBA team?

Chad Ford can say a lot of things, but you shouldn't believe it's gospel. It was a no brainer decision for Bird to draft Granger, ask Danny Ainge.


If Granger was such a no-brainer for the TPTB in Pacerland, why did 16 other teams pass on him?

-Bball

Justin Tyme
06-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Pacers were burned with the last HS'er they drafted that had POTENTIAL! How is that HS'er, with all that POTENTIAL, doing now, and he's playing for what NBA team?

iPacer:

After reading this again, I could see where you might have thought I was referring to Bender, if so, I was referring to GG as the HS'er when I asked where was he now, and he's playing for what NBA team? If I didn't make it clear, I want to now.

My feeling was "burnt once twice shy" on a HS'er with potential after JB didn't succeed. Thus one of the reasons why Granger was selected over GG. JMOAA

IIRC, at one time the Pacers had 3 HS'ers on their roster at the same time.

Justin Tyme
06-03-2008, 02:09 PM
If Granger was such a no-brainer for the TPTB in Pacerland, why did 16 other teams pass on him?

-Bball


Why don't you ask them? I can't answer for them. I just know at 17 it was a no brainer for Bird. I only hope someone of Granger's calibur drops to 11 this draft for the Pacers too. Don't you?

Anthem
06-03-2008, 03:30 PM
I only hope someone of Granger's calibur drops to 11 this draft for the Pacers too.
I hope so, but I'm not feeling lucky right now. The players I wanted are all rising, and the ones I didn't are all dropping.

Manguera
06-03-2008, 07:17 PM
Best case scenario:

Trade JO to Bulls for Hinrich and Gooden. Trade Tins to Sacto for Abdur-Rahim. Pick Westbrook with the #11 pick and trade any combo of Quis/Ike/Foster to get back in the first round to get Speights or R. Lopez. Then pick Weaver with #41.

That would give us this:
Starters:
PG- Hinrich
SG- Dun
SF- Granger
PF- Gooden
C- Murph

Bench:
Westbrook, Diener, Weaver, Graham, Williams, Speights or Lopez, Abdur-Rahim

Obviously I'm not saying this will happen, but I think this is probably the best we could hope for.

Jonathan
06-04-2008, 02:50 AM
I hope so, but I'm not feeling lucky right now. The players I wanted are all rising, and the ones I didn't are all dropping.

I agree Anthem but your so against drafting D Jordan you would rather trade back into the draft. If we have our choice b/t the following what would you do
1. Trade Back
2. Draft D Arthur/ Joe Alexander

count55
06-04-2008, 08:27 AM
I agree Anthem but your so against drafting D Jordan you would rather trade back into the draft. If we have our choice b/t the following what would you do
1. Trade Back
2. Draft D Arthur/ Joe Alexander

Well, I'm not Anthem, but it's difficult to choose when you don't know what you're getting in exchange for trading back. I would (presumably) agree with Anthem that either choice would be better than drafting Jordan, but then it's a decent possibility that I'd prefer not drafting anyone at all to taking Jordan.

D-BONE
06-04-2008, 12:07 PM
Best case scenario:

Trade JO to Bulls for Hinrich and Gooden. Trade Tins to Sacto for Abdur-Rahim. Pick Westbrook with the #11 pick and trade any combo of Quis/Ike/Foster to get back in the first round to get Speights or R. Lopez. Then pick Weaver with #41.

That would give us this:
Starters:
PG- Hinrich
SG- Dun
SF- Granger
PF- Gooden
C- Murph

Bench:
Westbrook, Diener, Weaver, Graham, Williams, Speights or Lopez, Abdur-Rahim

Obviously I'm not saying this will happen, but I think this is probably the best we could hope for.

Hard to say what the best case is for me. I can think of of lots of permutations I could live with and this one would be acceptable.

Manguera
06-04-2008, 12:50 PM
Jordan is high risk, high reward which is not the kind of gamble we should be taking IMO. His lack of motivation rep is enough for me to say "no thanks".

Anthem
06-04-2008, 10:17 PM
I'd be ok with a mild reach at #11 if we picked up another pick in theh early 20s.