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Speed
05-15-2008, 10:23 AM
This is fun!!


http://www.realgm.com/src_feature/1235/20080514/2008_nba_mock_draft_version_71_(pre_lottery_editio n)/


11. Eric Gordon
Shooting Guard. Indiana

With his exceptional handle in the halfcourt, Gordon generates separation from his defender and particularly is infatuated with the step back jumper. His jumper is world class for a player of his age: it is very fluid, his release is high and is quite compact. His range comfortably extends to about 25-feet.

Not just a perimeter shooter, he is equally content to drive to the basket when defenders try to take away his jumper. He gets deep into the paint after shaking defenders with remarkable change of pace moves, invites and even generates contact and is strong enough to finish despite a hard foul. Strong and agile, he has the ability to contort his body and get his shot off.

His height and weight are two issues that will plague him and slightly limit his ceiling. He is too short to be a true shooting guard, and Gordon fully realizes he will have to develop into a point guard at the NBA level. Scoring guards of his height like Dwyane Wade, Gilbert Arenas and Ben Gordon are all athletically superior to Gordon, though like a Carmelo Anthony, he is exceptionally ‘basketball athletic,’ especially with the ball.

Ultimately, the imperative for Gordon’s career (and draft value) will be if he can consistently score against long NBA defenders.

HOF: 10% All-Star: 45% Starter: 90% Rotation Player: 95%

tdubb03
05-15-2008, 10:54 AM
If he's there, which I don't think he will be, can't go wrong with him at 11. I don't agree with a lot of the pundits saying he HAS to be a 1 in the NBA. Sure it'd be nice, but he's so far away from a PG skill-set it almost wouldn't even be worth trying to convert him. He's a full 6'4, strong NBA ready body, and plenty athletic, the kid's a 2 guard.

NapTonius Monk
05-15-2008, 10:59 AM
This is fun!!


http://www.realgm.com/src_feature/1235/20080514/2008_nba_mock_draft_version_71_(pre_lottery_editio n)/


11. Eric Gordon
Shooting Guard. Indiana

Ben Gordon are all athletically superior to Gordon, though like a Carmelo Anthony, he is exceptionally ‘basketball athletic,’ especially with the ball.

That statement is ridiculous. Ben Gordon is not athletically superior to Eric Gordon; and if he can play 2-guard in the NBA, Eric surely can.

idioteque
05-15-2008, 11:07 AM
I still don't see Gordon slipping to 11. But if he does and they pass on him, I'd be surprised.

NapTonius Monk
05-15-2008, 11:19 AM
I still don't see Gordon slipping to 11. But if he does and they pass on him, I'd be surprised.

I don't actually think it would be that big of a basketball surprise. It would certainly be a PR surprise. We have bigger needs than shooting guard.

Speed
05-15-2008, 11:23 AM
I hope the Gallinari kid goes before 11, I think that may be a huge key to the draft for the Pacers. It means someone falls to them.


Heres the top 15 in the article.

1. Derrick Rose
Point Guard.

Scoring big men are extremely rare and Michael Beasley fits that category in spades, but even more rare are point guards of Derrick Rose’s caliber. Furthermore, point guards as good as Rose are almost never on bad teams while even a Kevin Garnett struggled to make the playoffs on a talent depleted team.

Rose creates wide-open shots with his dribble penetration, as there is nobody in the world he couldn\'t beat off the dribble. Making them look almost routine, he attempts and completes circus passes, but he completes simple and effective passes as well if the situation calls for them.

With good lift and a fluid release, he is already a much better shooter than people realize or give him credit for. It will take him a few seasons to become a 40% 3-point shooter, but he has it in him and he will always be excellent in the mid-range.

His rebounding instincts are superb and he will certainly be an elite NBA rebounder at his size and position. He has good elevation and attuned timing even putting back some of his own misses.

His anticipation on defense is extraordinary. He does well to get into the passing lanes and aggressively looks to swat shots when helping on players in the post.

Rose seems strong enough already to be a 35 minute a night professional player. His shoulders are broad, and his strength is evident on both ends of the floor.

<ST1:p: 80% All-Star: 90% Starter: 99% Rotation Player: 99% <O:p</O:p



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2. Michael Beasley<O:p</O:p
Power Forward. <ST1:p<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/ /><st1:City w:st=Memphis</st1:City></ST1http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/ /><st1:City w:st=HOF</st1:City></ST1http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/ /><st1:PlaceName w:st=Kansas</st1:PlaceName>

Very explosive in the post, Beasley is NBA-ready to bang and score. He scores at a tremendously effective rate despite the constant collapse of double-teams when he touches the ball. He’ll shoot a turnaround fadeaway jumper if his man sags off, and he’ll dribble into a spin move if his man gets too close. He can finish with his right hand within five feet and has outstanding awareness of where he is on the floor.

He should easily be a better scorer in his rookie season than what we saw from Kevin Durant and I believe he will have a better career than him due to his inside/outside game and superior ability on the glass.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City>: 75% All-Star: 90% Starter: 99% Rotation Player: 99% <O:p</O:p



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3. Jerryd Bayless<O:p</O:p
Combo Guard <ST1:p<st1:State w:st="on">Arizona</st1:State></ST1:p

We’ve seen quite a few shooting guards masquerading in the bodies of point guards in recent seasons and I think that’s what we’ll eventually see from Bayless. He does have point guard abilities but at best he will be a scoring point.

What has and will be the most immediately impressive aspect of his game is his extreme elevation on jumpers. It really is extraordinary and makes it possible for the 6-3 guard to be a shooting guard. He is a remarkable shooter off the dribble, but his play without the ball has been an unexpected bonus. He works hard without the ball and comes off screens, catches the ball and shoots in one fluid motion. Because of the elevation, he is able to spot an open teammate while in the air and get him the ball for an easy lay-up.

He has excellent vision and draws fouls especially well when he penetrates. He does, however, need to become a more efficient and imaginative passer when penetrating. Bayless also has the athleticism to play quite a bit of Monta Ellis-style off guard.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 40% All-Star: 75% Starter: 99% Rotation Player: 99% <O:p</O:p



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4. O.J. Mayo<O:p</O:p
Shooting Guard. USC

In an NBA in which very few players can create their own offense, Mayo will be elite (as long as he is not guarded by Russell Westbrook).

He creates separation off the dribble to generate space to get his jumper off, but what is more impressive and refined is his knack for preserving his dribble, squaring up in a triple-threat position with purpose and intent. He is able to back defenders up with jab steps, which sets things up for when he does put the ball on the floor, where he is highly imaginative, utilizing a wide array of moves to score.

Though shorter and slightly less athletic than both Jordan and Bryant, Mayo is headed for this type of individual career.
<st1:City w:st="on"></st1:City>
<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 30% All-Star: 70% Starter: 95% Rotation Player: 99% <O:p</O:p



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5. Brook Lopez<O:p</O:p
Center. Stanford

I’m not sure if he will have the strength and athleticism to do this so easily in the NBA, but the way he seals his man and gets his body ready to immediately score while a pass is on its way is remarkable. This anticipation allows him to score before off-ball shot blockers and sagging perimeter defenders can come to assist his man.

His touch around the hoop out of the post is terrific and is of course something that can’t be taught.

What he lacks in athleticism, he does make up in agility. He has great balance for a player of his size with a very strong physical core and is well-conditioned.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 8% All-Star: 35% Starter: 85% Rotation Player: 98% <O:p</O:p



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6. Marreese Speights<O:p</O:p
Power Forward <ST1:p<st1:State w:st="on">Florida</st1:State></ST1:p

With impeccable strength, athleticism and balance, there may not be a power forward prospect in college basketball outside of Michael Beasley who is more NBA-ready, yet also shows enough room for improvement to develop into an All-Star.

His conditioning has been an issue and he is typically limited to short floor stints, but it is due to how amazingly active he is on both sides of the floor and at all times. Speights’ in-game work ethic is as impressive as any player on any level.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 10% All-Star: 55% Starter: 90% Rotation Player: 97% <O:p</O:p



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7. Anthony Randolph<O:p</O:p
Power Forward. LSU

The aspect of <ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City>’s game that jumps out at any observer is how skilled he was at triggering LSU’s transition game. After collecting a blocked a shot or rebound, <ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City></ST1:p will use his remarkably quick dribble for a player of his height to initiate their early offense. He will look to create his own shot, find an open teammate, or slow it down to setup the halfcourt offense. His decision-making in this area is very mature.

In the halfcourt, <ST1:place <st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City></ST1:p has shown equal sophistication in the post as he has on the pick and pop/pick and roll. <st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City></ST1:place has excellent vision as a passer in the post. He finds open spot-up shooters and has the physical tools to deliver passes to the opposite side of the floor if need be.

When <ST1:place <st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City></ST1:place comes out to the perimeter to set a screen, he shows an ability that you wouldn’t really expect from an 18-year-old. His footwork could use some polish, but he pops into space well and is extremely confident (almost too confident because he needs to reel in his shot selection a bit) with his shot. He has good form and consistently hits shots from 10 to 18 feet out.

As he nears the rim, <ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">Randolph</st1:City></ST1:place attacks the rim as well as anyone. He is slinky long and doesn’t fear going to the rack on anyone.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 15% All-Star: 40% Starter: 80% Rotation Player: 85% <O:p</O:p



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8. Russell Westbrook<O:p</O:p
Combo Guard. UCLA

Westbrook may very well be the best athlete in this year’s draft and is probably the best defender. He won the Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year award over senior Kyle Weaver and teammate Darren Collison. He is a lockdown, suffocating on-ball defender and will be so immediately upon his arrival in the NBA. He is so quick laterally and is also incredibly strong. Westbrook will also be a very good help defender, particularly as a shotblocker at the guard position.

He needs to reel in many aspects of his offensive game, but he has shown flashes of great sophistication as a shooter, dribbler and passer. He can create space off the dribble for his jumper and can also beat his man to get into the lane at will where he is a superb finisher. When he gets the ball into the paint, he is patient and controlled.

His closing speed when he gets closer to the basket is more impressive than any other player in this draft and he is already a YouTube dunk legend. He will never be a great perimeter shooter, but he should become a mid-range star in the Dwyane Wade mold if he just relaxes his mechanics slightly.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 12% All-Star: 45% Starter: 90% Rotation Player: 95% <O:p</O:p



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9. Danilo Gallinari<O:p</O:p
Small Forward <st1:country-region w:st="on">Italy</st1:country-region></ST1:p

Gallinari has nice athleticism though he sometimes labors a little bit in the air. But his feel for the lane and ability to handle the ball, especially in the open floor, is really exceptional. He is 6-9, but plays like a point guard at times. He has the ability and confidence to play three positions on the NBA level, as well as a little point forward.

He is one of the most instinctive players in this entire draft.

His shot is above average and improving, but is sometimes a little slow and lazy with it. The creation of his own shot will likely prove difficult and his halfcourt buckets will come primarily from the pick and roll, spot-ups and curling off screens. His available options are far more plentiful in transition and early offense.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 4% All-Star: 20% Starter: 80% Rotation Player: 85% <O:p</O:p



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10. D.J. Augustin<O:p</O:p
Point Guard <ST1:p<st1:State w:st="on">Texas</st1:State></ST1:p

Augustin is preposterously quick and nimble with the dribble, maintaining it effectively to create shots for himself and teammates with his gunslinger mentality. He would have struggled in the Derek Harper hand-check era, but he should be an effective NBA point guard in the way Tony Parker and Chris Paul have become All-Stars.

He is fearless in the air and is never reluctant to make a big play in clutch situations.

He is an extremely safe pick for any team (particularly an up-tempo Western Conference club) looking to draft a point guard in the middle of the first round.

<ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</st1:City></ST1:p: 5% All-Star: 35% Starter: 85% Rotation Player: 99% <O:p</O:p

Speed
05-15-2008, 11:29 AM
and 12-15

12. DeAndre Jordan
Center <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/ /><st1:State w:st=<ST1:pTexas</st1:State> A&M

Jordan is a long ways away from being an effective professional basketball player, but his size and athleticism reveal a slew of promise. His motor isn’t as good as you’d like to see from a big like <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pJordan</ST1:p</st1:country-region> and is perhaps more of a concern than the massive scaffolding that surrounds his game.

He is more of a scorer than a shotblocker/rebounder at this point in his development. He isn’t particularly quick at finding the outlet man upon grabbing a rebound and could become more consistent at boxing out.

Fair or not, we now expect elite freshman to dominate and that was rarely the case for <st1:country-region w:st="on">Jordan</st1:country-region> during his lone season in <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pCollege Station.</ST1:p</st1:City>

<st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pHOF</ST1:p</st1:City>: 5% All-Star: 20% Starter: 70% Rotation Player: 95% <O:p</O:p


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13. Darrell Arthur<O:p</O:p
Power Forward <st1:State w:st="on">Kansas</st1:State></ST1:p

Arthur has a remarkable court awareness as he is almost always in an ideal position on both ends of the floor. He posts with purpose; constantly trying to seal his man and can finish well with either hand. Arthur is also a good passer out of the post and pretty much anywhere else on the floor. His ball-handling does need a great deal of more work.

He is very athletic, sprinting the floor with gusto, beating his man down the floor for easy transition buckets. His jump shot is far from developed, but shows nice promise.

<st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pHOF</ST1:p</st1:City>: 3% All-Star: 15% Starter: 70% Rotation Player: 85% <O:p</O:p


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14. Joe Alexander<O:p</O:p
Small Forward <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:pWest Virginia</ST1:p</st1:State>

Vanilla Sky is one of the finest athletes and finishers in the entire draft. He is an aggressive leaper and can dunk on people extremely well and the radius of where he can attack the rim extends impressively.

He is very nifty with the ball, using tremendous pre-dribble fakes, spin moves and is elusive to his defender. With great court awareness, he is great with his back to the bucket at the elbow or mid-post.
<st1:City w:st="on"></st1:City>
<st1:City w:st="on">HOF</ST1:p</st1:City>: 8% All-Star: 30% Starter: 80% Rotation Player: 95% <O:p</O:p


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15. Donte Greene<O:p</O:p
Small Forward <ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">Syracuse</st1:City></ST1:p

Like Beasley, Greene is a 6-9 combo forward with an excellent inside/outside game. He is a very powerful dunker who attacks the rim, but also shoots the 3-point shot well. Because he does shoot the 3-pointer well, he tends to gluttonously fall in love with the shot and force too many very bad attempts. His poor shot selection directly causes his poor shot percentage.

He has good technique on the pick and roll and this will be one of his most valuable assets in the NBA and where the majority of his perimeter shots should come from.

Greene is really good shooting off the dribble and also as a passer, so if he’s encouraged to go to work 20 feet and in, his value will exponentially increase. One final pressing question is how effective will he be when he is not a volume shooter at the levels he was at <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pSyracuse</ST1:p</st1:City>?

I think his <ST1:p<st1:City w:st="on">Syracuse</st1:City></ST1:p teammate Johnny Flynn, who decided to return for his sophomore season, will have the superior pro career.

<st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pHOF</ST1:p</st1:City>: 9% All-Star: 25% Starter: 70% Rotation Player: 85% <O:p</O:p

Kegboy
05-15-2008, 11:32 AM
I will be shocked if he falls to 11. Shocked.

I was thrown when I saw Augustin going to NJ at 10, until I read that he's going by best player, not matching team needs.

Speed
05-15-2008, 11:40 AM
Reading about Rose makes me want to trade Granger, 4 years of number 1s, Boomer, the cheerleaders, Larry, some ushers, the big basketball in the gift shop, the war memorial on monument circle, Helio Castraneuves......... basically everthing but Andrea Buckman for him.

LG33
05-15-2008, 11:45 AM
God willing, the O.J. Mayo scandal scares GMs into passing on him and we get him at 11.

count55
05-15-2008, 11:46 AM
Reading about Westbrook makes me want to trade Granger, 4 years of number 1s, Boomer, the cheerleaders, Larry, some ushers, the big basketball in the gift shop, the war memorial on monument circle, Helio Castraneuves......... basically everthing but Andrea Buckman for him.

That's funny...while I'd have no huge problem with Westbrook at 11...virtually everything about him screams "Freddie Jones" to me.

That being said, he's probably #2 on my list (at 11) behind Augustin. I don't trust any of the big guys.

Speed
05-15-2008, 11:52 AM
That's funny...while I'd have no huge problem with Westbrook at 11...virtually everything about him screams "Freddie Jones" to me.

That being said, he's probably #2 on my list (at 11) behind Augustin. I don't trust any of the big guys.

I just saw the word defense and I then looked up what defense means on Wikipedia since I haven't seen it played in so long that I really didn't understand what it meant and I thought wow, that would be something good to do!!

However, I too get leary when you hear amazing dunker, just like if I ever hear 6'11" from Picayune or the best practice player on the team, I'd be a little gun shy, too.

Otherwise, I meant to say ROSE, not Westbrook. My fault. I'll fix it.

Also, I am concerned about the bigs high in this draft too. I'd almost feel better getting a Hibbert at say 22 than B Lopez at 4, but its hard to say.

Putnam
05-15-2008, 12:02 PM
Isn't it pretty certain that one of Westbrook, Augustin or Gordon will be available at #11. Maybe not the one we'd prefer, but one of those three, any of which would help the Pacers?

Kegboy
05-15-2008, 12:08 PM
basically everthing but Andrea Buckman for him.

Whew, you had me scared there for a second.

Naptown_Seth
05-15-2008, 12:19 PM
HOF: 10% All-Star: 45% Starter: 90% Rotation Player: 95%
A guy picked 11th has a 45% chance of being an all-star? Not based on every draft since forever. But what does history know, it's just a bunch of old facts and numbers...you know, lying stats. If scouts see him with a 45% AS chance then he's going to be rated higher than 11th.


until I read that he's going by best player, not matching team needs
And this reduced your shock? DJ is nowhere near the 10th best player as it stands now. If he becomes that it will be a pleasant surprise for him and the team that drafts him.


Putnum, DJ will be there at 11. I don't think he's the best choice at this point just because he's so borderline right now. I mean it looks like upside Earl Watson right now, barring a breakthrough. And if we are playing that game then you might as well take Courtney Lee at a 11 because he might have a breakthrough. Heck, take me, I've got a feeling my 2nd wind is kicking in. ;)

Naptown_Seth
05-15-2008, 12:31 PM
That's funny...while I'd have no huge problem with Westbrook at 11...virtually everything about him screams "Freddie Jones" to me.

That being said, he's probably #2 on my list (at 11) behind Augustin. I don't trust any of the big guys.
As long as W'brook is drafted to play SG and it comes with the understanding that he isn't bringing a 3 ball with him, then I'll take him. He's not a PG and he's not a deep threat. He'll drive for his own, can score 10 a night ala Freddie and will give you great on-ball defense on the outside on either guard.

The Pacers can use that. My only arguments against W'brook were with Kofi slotting him as this easy transition right into PG when the guy has NEVER shown he can run a half court or really go to his left very strong.

I might as well say get Love because he can be an SF and sprint down court. ;)


BTW, no Love listed in the top 11, if it's Love or Gordan you take Love because he's ready to go right now and won't be handing out 5 TOs a game his rookie year.
It'll go like this, missed shot, Love rebounds, pass to Granger at their FT line, dunk. Rinse, repeat. Dude wouldn't have to run more than 3 steps half the night.

Flashy? No. Effective? Definitely.

Gyron
05-15-2008, 12:34 PM
Am I the only one here that is not excited at the prospect of getting Gordon?

Speed
05-15-2008, 12:35 PM
I waffle from thinking Love can be an above average starter to a guy who may not have a place in the league.

I have no opinion of him, he's almost impossible for me to get a feel on.

Speed
05-15-2008, 12:40 PM
Am I the only one here that is not excited at the prospect of getting Gordon?

I like him, I think you have to wait longer on him than some others, but I think he's strong enough and handles well enough to at the very least be an excellent off the bench scorer in the very least.

I think last year hurt his game way more than helped his game, but I think you can coach him up that by the 3rd year you'd have a really nice player, imho.

I think at worst you've got a bench scorer (Vinnie Johnson for old schoolers or a Bonzi Wells at the guard spot for new schoolers). At best you have a guy who is too strong for point guards and too fast with too good of handles for 2 guards to keep up with. I guess upside in a 23 points a night starting 2 guard.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kegboy
05-15-2008, 12:45 PM
And this reduced your shock? DJ is nowhere near the 10th best player as it stands now. If he becomes that it will be a pleasant surprise for him and the team that drafts him.

Oh, I agree. Just the notion of NJ drafting a PG threw me for a loop.

Mourning
05-15-2008, 12:48 PM
Am I the only one here that is not excited at the prospect of getting Gordon?

Excited at both Love and/or Gordon who might be where we pick actually :).

Jonathan
05-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I might as well say get Love because he can be an SF and sprint down court. ;)


BTW, no Love listed in the top 11, if it's Love or Gordan you take Love because he's ready to go right now and won't be handing out 5 TOs a game his rookie year.
It'll go like this, missed shot, Love rebounds, pass to Granger at their FT line, dunk. Rinse, repeat. Dude wouldn't have to run more than 3 steps half the night.

Flashy? No. Effective? Definitely.[/QUOTE]

The thing about drafting Love over EJ is Larry Bird will take so much heat from the media for the following reasons EJ puts more people in the seats and if Bird draft's Love over EJ people will be talking about how all he wants are white players on his team ala Boston Celtics of the 80's. I do know Bird does not care about the criticism he is going to take who he thinks is the best available and can help the Pacers win now.

Jonathan
05-15-2008, 12:50 PM
Oh, I agree. Just the notion of NJ drafting a PG threw me for a loop.

New Jersey does have two first round picks so do not be suprised if they trade the rights of one of them ie Eddie Griffin.

Shade
05-15-2008, 01:04 PM
I think even the staunchest EJ detractor would have to take him at #11.

OakMoses
05-15-2008, 01:15 PM
Is it just me, or does reading about Galinari make him sound a lot like Dunleavy? Except the part about his athletcism being "nice".

Personally, if we can land Westbrook, Love, or Gordon at #11, I'll be very happy.

I don't mind Augustin. I think he's a great kid. I just don't think he improves us defensively at all. I also think he'll be limited by his inability to finish at the rim in the NBA.

Speed
05-15-2008, 01:23 PM
I like Augusting at 11. I think he will be all that he can be. That's a nice warm fuzzy feeling when dealing with a bunch of 20 year old millionaires.

Anthem
05-15-2008, 07:24 PM
Eh. Augustin doesn't excite me... here's hoping he goes early (twss). But if we get one of Love/Gordon/Westbrook I'll be just fine with this draft.

Hicks
05-15-2008, 08:33 PM
He doesn't excite me either, but he seems like a great kid off the floor, and a good player on the floor. Hard to feel bad about drafting him.

pwee31
05-17-2008, 05:02 PM
Granted it's only been one year, it's looking like a blessing in disguise that Atlanta got our pick last year and not this year.
I thought Acie Law was good, but I like our draft opportunities a lot more at #11 this year compared to what was available at #11 last year

Pacersfan46
05-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Am I the only one here that is not excited at the prospect of getting Gordon?

I'm not, at all. Honestly, he reminds me of a guy I played basketball with through my high school years, Jason Gardner. Just taller.



Granted it's only been one year, it's looking like a blessing in disguise that Atlanta got our pick last year and not this year.
I thought Acie Law was good, but I like our draft opportunities a lot more at #11 this year compared to what was available at #11 last year

That's a good point. Am I wrong, or do I recall correctly that everyone last year was saying it was the 'uber-draft' and every pick in the top 20 would be an All Star, or some junk? I know it's said by some every year, but I believe last year it was overbearing.

-- Steve --

BlueNGold
05-17-2008, 06:13 PM
Gordon is a lot better than Jason Gardner. Did Gardner ever make the NBA?

IMO, Gordon is an absolute lock to at least be a backup combo-type guard because he definitely will be able to score at the next level. The only question is, will he be starter material.

Realistically, I could see Love or Westbrook being on the board and either would be a good pickup and help our needs.

croz24
05-17-2008, 07:21 PM
to be honest, as i've said all year, bill walker is a top 10 TALENT in this draft and i see no reason we shouldn't take him #11 over the likes of dj, ej, westbrook, or love...

Doddage
05-17-2008, 07:23 PM
Bill Walker FTW

Pacersfan46
05-18-2008, 03:54 AM
Gordon is a lot better than Jason Gardner. Did Gardner ever make the NBA?

That would uhhh .... explain why I wouldn't exactly be excited about him being here, wouldn't it?

-- Steve --

Naptown_Seth
05-19-2008, 03:23 PM
Granted it's only been one year, it's looking like a blessing in disguise that Atlanta got our pick last year and not this year.
I thought Acie Law was good, but I like our draft opportunities a lot more at #11 this year compared to what was available at #11 last year
I agree 100%, and this was basically my stance against tanking last year when people were pulling to save the pick. Sooner or later the Hawks were going to come knocking, better to have that be in a year when you aren't missing out on as much (apparently). And imagine if it had been the #9 this year which was also unprotected, or maybe 6-10 the year after (I think it goes to top 5, then no protection).



I like Bill Walker's game and would take him even with the apparent emotional aspects he brings, but not at 11. The price on Walker isn't that steep, so why overpay? Even going for him in the 20's might be overpaying, but that would be a lot more reasonable.

Naptown_Seth
05-19-2008, 03:29 PM
Oh, I agree. Just the notion of NJ drafting a PG threw me for a loop.And what gets me is why not mock by need? I mean you are a draft site, you can have your top prosects list and still also run out a mock draft. Too busy with other items to do the one thing your site is all about?

It's not like we won't understand if the mock is busted by a lottery change or a draft day trade. But for now, today or this week, you can't take that extra step from "prospect list" next to team names to really trying to consider what those team's will have interest in?

croz24
05-19-2008, 03:57 PM
I like Bill Walker's game and would take him even with the apparent emotional aspects he brings, but not at 11. The price on Walker isn't that steep, so why overpay? Even going for him in the 20's might be overpaying, but that would be a lot more reasonable.

who says #11 is overpaying? a few mock drafts? bill walker's talent is comparable if not better than just about every player in the draft. walker is a kid who was somewhat forgotten about due to being mayo's sidekick in high school and beasley's sidekick in college. walker was more highly touted than rose, beasley, gordon, love, singler, etc up until the last 1/4 years of his time in high school and would have been a sure fire lottery pick last year if not for his knee injury. again, he's been the sidekick his entire career so nobody knows exactly what kinds of potential he has. if he improves his jump shot, like most players tend to do over time, he can surely become one of the top 5 players in this draft.

yet #11 is overpaying? sgs and sfs have a MUCH HIGHER success rate in the nba than do pgs and cs. i guarantee walker will become a better pro than love, westbrook, or augustin. walker's situation is much like rajon rondo's imo and i was adament about the pacers getting rondo 2 years ago...

naptown_baller
05-19-2008, 04:27 PM
That statement is ridiculous. Ben Gordon is not athletically superior to Eric Gordon; and if he can play 2-guard in the NBA, Eric surely can.

Agreed! Has this guy seen EJ play? I played high school ball with him. He is a beast. "basketball athletic"? A 40" vertical is not just basketball athletic. Being able to challenge Greg Oden's shots means you're not just basketball athletic.

Now after that rant, EJ would be a steal at 11, but he is definitely going to be gone by then. And how does realgm have Mareese Speights at #6? Come on now. I understand he has potential to boot but he is not as polished as other forwards. I think the Pacers should pick Russell Westbrook if he is available (if EJ is not of course). I think Westbrook is the best point guard prospect this year besides Rose.

croz24
05-19-2008, 04:30 PM
Agreed! Has this guy seen EJ play? I played high school ball with him. He is a beast. "basketball athletic"? A 40" vertical is not just basketball athletic. Being able to challenge Greg Oden's shots means you're not just basketball athletic.

Now after that rant, EJ would be a steal at 11, but he is definitely going to be gone by then. And how does realgm have Mareese Speights at #6? Come on now. I understand he has potential to boot but he is not as polished as other forwards. I think the Pacers should pick Russell Westbrook if he is available (if EJ is not of course). I think Westbrook is the best point guard prospect this year besides Rose.

based on what? because westbrook was an emergency pg at ucla. meaning he hardly played the position. yet he's the 2nd best pg prospect in the draft...

naptown_baller
05-19-2008, 05:27 PM
based on what? because westbrook was an emergency pg at ucla. meaning he hardly played the position. yet he's the 2nd best pg prospect in the draft...

First, I said prospect(=project). The #2 true point guard behind Rose is Augustine technically because both Bayless and Westbrook are combo-guards that will have to make the transition to point. I like Westbrook as a prospect because he has the size, athleticism, defense, handle, and ability to finish inside to be a future point guard. He will not be able to start right away at the point but with the addition of a reliable jumper and a little work adjusting to the role of point, he will be good. Also, he was used sparingly at point because you had the most experienced point guard in the country at the 1. Derrick Rose might have even played off the ball on that team. You can't judge any college player purely on the role they played on their college team. You have to judge them on how they play the game.

Robertmto
05-19-2008, 05:43 PM
to be honest, as i've said all year, bill walker is a top 10 TALENT in this draft and i see no reason we shouldn't take him #11 over the likes of dj, ej, westbrook, or love...

i didn't know Isiah Thomas posted here!



I think Westbrook is the best point guard prospect this year besides Rose.

I wish people would stop thinking Westbrook is a point

Kemo
05-19-2008, 06:36 PM
I personally think that Russell Westbrook is going to be a very dominant player once he get accustomed to playing in the NBA..

Not only that , but he is a BEAST when it comes to dunking skill ..
I think that there is a good chance that he could be sorta like Vince Carter in the aspect of being a highlight reel ..


Another player I am real high on is Chase Buddinger ...
The kid is not only , very likeable , but he seems to have an excellent work ethic , and is constantly improving his game ...
He has good range , and has a nice shot... and he has some excellent jumping ability...
Not only that , but did you know that he is one of the top 5 players in the country in Volleyball? I hear that not only are his ballhandling skills good , but he is EXCELLENT around the rim , due to his volleyball experience ..

While I like DJ Augustin and think Gordon would make a real nice addition (especially bringing the fans back to the field house with the P.R. ) ... I think I would much rather have Westbrook or Buddinger in a Pacer's uniform ..

Naptown_Seth
05-22-2008, 10:50 AM
who says #11 is overpaying? a few mock drafts?
The market.

Hey, I need shoes and they do protect my feet so I guess $10m is a good price.

Why take Walker at 11 if you can get him at 25? That's the definition of overpaying. It's not about whether you need him or not. Why "pay" more than you have to? Save your money and get Walker AND SOMETHING ELSE.

Or waste that extra juice for no good reason.

Speed
05-22-2008, 10:58 AM
i guarantee walker will become a better pro than love, westbrook, or augustin....

Okay, we'll see.

And yes, its early for him because of where you could have him, not because he's not worth it. I don't know if he's worth it or not.

It is what the market will bear, apparently at this point it's not 11.

I'm not going to pay 3.99 a gallon for gas when it's 3.72 across the street, just because I really need gas?!?!?

I'm waiting for the official Croz24 Mock draft?

Rajah Brown
05-22-2008, 11:20 AM
The real question about Westbrook at PG is the mental aspect of the
game. It takes quite awhile to develop the instincts necessary to
play the position well. Some guys seem to be born with them and
some can never develop them at all.

For example, Rondo is a simlarly, long, explosive athlete for his
size at PG and has been playing the position for years. Yet,
while adequate, even playing with 3 All-Stars, he still struggles
with decision making and overall consistency.

I'd be fine with drafting Westbrook. But I'll believe he can be a
better than average, starting, NBA PG if and when I see it.

himikey
05-22-2008, 11:48 AM
For example, Rondo is a simlarly, long, explosive athlete for his
size at PG and has been playing the position for years. Yet,
while adequate, even playing with 3 All-Stars, he still struggles
with decision making and overall consistency.

I'd be fine with drafting Westbrook. But I'll believe he can be a
better than average, starting, NBA PG if and when I see it.

...and if we had taken Rondo in 2006 we would be looking at one of the bigs right now. We needed him then (read:not another SF in Shawne Williams) and we need him now. I'm still bitter. :mad:

Rajah Brown
05-22-2008, 12:42 PM
himikey-

I hear ya. I was pissed off when we passed up Rondo that night
too (I wasn't a big Marcus Williams fan).

croz24
05-22-2008, 01:42 PM
Okay, we'll see.

And yes, its early for him because of where you could have him, not because he's not worth it. I don't know if he's worth it or not.

It is what the market will bear, apparently at this point it's not 11.

I'm not going to pay 3.99 a gallon for gas when it's 3.72 across the street, just because I really need gas?!?!?

I'm waiting for the official Croz24 Mock draft?

just because somebody SHOULD be drafted in a certain slot, doesn't mean they will be. thus, my mock draft would look similar to most. augustin and westbrook are not what the pacers need, yet chances are great 1 of those 2 will be drafted by us. and the mindset of "overpaying" is the reason guys like gilbert arenas, michael redd, tony parker, etc fall to the late first, or 2nd round. yea, let's not "overpay". if a team feels a player is worthy of the #11 pick, and feels that player will be better than anybody else they could draft at that position, tell me why they shouldn't draft him there...? one last time, if not for bill walker's knee injury, or had he been able to declare out of high school, he would have been a top 10 pick. much like rondo, walker has been overshadowed (not by a team's bad record, but by michael beasley).

Speed
05-22-2008, 02:03 PM
tell me why they shouldn't draft him there...? one last time, if not for bill walker's knee injury, or had he been able to declare out of high school, he would have been a top 10 pick. much like rondo, walker has been overshadowed (not by a team's bad record, but by michael beasley).

1.) because you can move down to 22, just to throw out a number, and maybe pick up another 2nd round pick or future 2nd round pick, then you have both.

What if you can pick up Kyle Lowry AND draft this kid, you'd RATHER just draft this kid????

It comes down to smart business more than if you should pick them.

I think the Colts did it with Bob Sanders. They knew they wanted Bob, but moved down and got him and more.

2.) One last time, it still happened, the ACL tear, so for one last time, would've, could've, should've. If "ifs and buts were candies and nuts it would be a merry Christmas for us all. So that, for one last time, doesn't matter, the reality NOW matters.

jmoney2584
05-22-2008, 02:17 PM
I mean...I admit I have been down on Westbrook often. That being said..this is a sweet video and his handle appears to be better, or at least have the potential to be very solid...he's just real quick

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qJUkr1xDiJs peep game

croz24
05-22-2008, 02:29 PM
1.) because you can move down to 22, just to throw out a number, and maybe pick up another 2nd round pick or future 2nd round pick, then you have both.

What if you can pick up Kevin Lowry AND draft this kid, you'd RATHER just draft this kid????

It comes down to smart business more than if you should pick them.

I think the Colts did it with Bob Sanders. They knew they wanted Bob, but moved down and got him and more.

2.) One last time, it still happened, the ACL tear, so for one last time, would've, could've, should've. If "ifs and buts were candies and nuts it would be a merry Christmas for us all. So that, for one last time, doesn't matter, the reality NOW matters.

i believe it's kyle lowry ;-) if you insist on trying to make a fool of me...in my posts i have stated we need another 1st to draft walker. i understand where he's likely to be drafted. i probably know his game more than anybody on this board. but my point has always been, if we are going to draft a westbrook, augustin, or love at #11, we might as well draft walker because walker will be better than all 3. i have been stating walker at #11 as a knock on the players the pacers are probably looking at at that position. to be honest, i like the players "mocked" to go mid to late 1st round much better than those 11-15...it would be very foolish if the pacers drafted westbrook or augustin #11. i guess our hopes pin on the clippers taking westbrook and not ej...

Speed
05-22-2008, 02:43 PM
to be honest, as i've said all year, bill walker is a top 10 TALENT in this draft and i see no reason we shouldn't take him #11 over the likes of dj, ej, westbrook, or love...


it would be very foolish if the pacers drafted westbrook or augustin #11. i guess our hopes pin on the clippers taking westbrook and not ej...


I can't keep up, it doesn't even makes sense.

Jared Jammer
05-22-2008, 02:49 PM
I mean...I admit I have been down on Westbrook often. That being said..this is a sweet video and his handle appears to be better, or at least have the potential to be very solid...he's just real quick

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qJUkr1xDiJs peep game

There's no way he's there at #11. He's got star written all over him.

6'4"
190 lb.
Ultra athletic
Respectable (improving) shooter
Developing point guard skills (compared to Rajon Rondo)
Rottweiler on defense
19 years old
Great attitude
Great work ethic
Passion

How is there even a debate between Westbrook and Augustine?

croz24
05-22-2008, 03:30 PM
I can't keep up, it doesn't even makes sense.

what doesn't make sense? ej will likely be drafted before the pacers regardless of whether the clippers draft him or not...westbrook otoh, seems to either be clippers or falling to us...what's not to get?

Speed
05-22-2008, 03:50 PM
what doesn't make sense? ej will likely be drafted before the pacers regardless of whether the clippers draft him or not...westbrook otoh, seems to either be clippers or falling to us...what's not to get?

One place you arrogantly guarantee that Walker will be better than Westbrook, Augustin, Love and EJ; then you say the only hope is that EJ doesn't get taken before they draft, so they can take him.

If I was you, I'd make up something that's irrelevant, while acting like your validating your point, and then talk about how much credit you deserve for being an expert, that's really the only way to respond, I would guess.

Sometimes it's easier to say, hmmmm I made a mistake, typically as you get older your able to do this more freely.

croz24
05-22-2008, 04:01 PM
white? when did i ever mention a white? it's simple. ej will more than likely be gone before the pacers pick regardless. i DO NOT want westbrook. thus, my hope is that the clippers select westbrook over ej because i do not see westbrook being selected after that clippers pick whereas i believe ej would. please explain the mistake i made...

Speed
05-22-2008, 04:09 PM
white? when did i ever mention a white? it's simple. ej will more than likely be gone before the pacers pick regardless. i DO NOT want westbrook. thus, my hope is that the clippers select westbrook over ej because i do not see westbrook being selected after that clippers pick whereas i believe ej would. please explain the mistake i made...

Walker, I meant, no you're right, good call!! I see exactly what you are saying, makes complete sense. Keep up excellent assessments, thank you.

croz24
05-22-2008, 04:13 PM
just because i want granger gone, does not mean i hate the pacers. i've been going to pacers games since '85 and am tired of the passive mindset the organization continues to take. i want a championship just as much as everybody on here. but being "safe" is the reason we are in the position we are in now, and will continue to stay in this position until we shake things up. if we actually had a semblance of a future, i would want granger to stay. but we don't...

croz24
05-23-2008, 12:45 AM
There's no way he's there at #11. He's got star written all over him.

6'4"
190 lb.
Ultra athletic
Respectable (improving) shooter
Developing point guard skills (compared to Rajon Rondo)
Rottweiler on defense
19 years old
Great attitude
Great work ethic
Passion

How is there even a debate between Westbrook and Augustine?

kofi and his love for westbrook :rolleyes:

Merz
05-23-2008, 01:18 AM
and the mindset of "overpaying" is the reason guys like gilbert arenas, michael redd, tony parker, etc fall to the late first, or 2nd round. yea, let's not "overpay". if a team feels a player is worthy of the #11 pick, and feels that player will be better than anybody else they could draft at that position, tell me why they shouldn't draft him there...? .

What a terrible argument for your "point". If Bill Walker is to be drafted in the late 1st or early 2nd like Arenas, Redd, or Parker it would be just plain stupid to use the 11th pick on him. How about trading back and maybe getting something else as well? It's called making the most of your picks. If the Pacers could get "Arenas, Redd, or Parker" with pick 30 why take him with 11?

It's not that no one wants Bill Walker to be a Pacer it's just that getting him with a later pick than 11 would be a better move. I don't get how you don't understand this.

Wouldn't it just make it that much sweeter if the Pacers got the "second coming" with a late first? (who knows maybe they could also swing a deal for the greatest player in Rider U. history as well, imagine the possibilities :O )

croz24
05-23-2008, 01:36 AM
it'd be nice, but there's no guarantee we'd be able to trade for him. and my point has been, if we are seriously looking at dj, rw, or love at #11, we might as well draft walker because walker has more potential, athleticism, ability, defense, and overall talent than dj or rw. love is talented, just too damn short and chubby.

count55
05-23-2008, 07:17 AM
kofi and his love for westbrook :rolleyes:

I was thinking the very same thing.

Naptown_Seth
05-24-2008, 12:24 AM
Jmoney - Westbrook has handles for his own needs, he can get by guys for himself. What he doesn't really do at all is space to setup the pass/play, run really clean PnR type stuff, and simply doesn't show that kind of nifty passing array an up and coming PG has.

I mean I don't go by flashy pass as the indicator, but SOME sharp passes behind the back, through legs, wrap around, hesitations, look-aways, things a PG does to CREATE the lane and opportunity to make a pass. We all know the drive and dump, that does help, but that was Fred Jones game which is why his name comes up so much with W'brook. Fred can get to the lane, Fred can throw it down, and Fred could handle the ball fairly well coming up court.

Whatever W'brook does in the NBA as a PG will be brand new. He's not yet shown that set of skills as UCLA. In that regard I like Chalmers far more, even though W'brook is the quicker guy with the better hops.

Kemo
05-24-2008, 06:36 AM
i personally think Westbrook has the instinct and from what all I have been reading , the passion to be a very good NBA player .. not to mention I think he will be one hell of an in-game dunker..



I hope he is still left on the board ...

I don't think Gordon will be left for us ..
would be nice though

Hicks
05-24-2008, 10:42 AM
Are most people expecting Westbrook to be worse than, equal to, or better than Fred Jones at whatever point you feel to have been Fred Jones' peak?

owl
05-24-2008, 10:47 AM
I believe Westbrook is a better ball handler and quicker than Fred. He is a better defender
and has more passion than Fred. He is and will be better than Fred. Shooting is the only plus
from distance on Fred's side.

Just an opinion.

Rajah Brown
05-24-2008, 11:16 AM
Westbrook vs Fred Jones ?

Interesting question, but almost impossible to answer. Westbrook
only turned 19 last Novemeber. FJ was almost 26 when we saw
him at his 'peak' in the remaining stretch of games in 04-05
after the brawl in Det.

Never having seen FJ at 19 and not having a clue how Westbrook's
game might evolve over the next 6-7 years, it's hard to know if
they're comparable.

Although, assuming Westbrook has a modicum of hoops-IQ, he's got
a leg up on FJ already.

rm1369
05-24-2008, 11:43 AM
Are most people expecting Westbrook to be worse than, equal to, or better than Fred Jones at whatever point you feel to have been Fred Jones' peak?

I certainly believe Westbrook will be a better player than Fred was at his peak. Westbrook, IMO, already shows a better handle than Fred posseses. There was never any question than Fred was a small SG, however there is some debate as to Westbrooks NBA position. Westbrook is also a better defender and much quicker, although not as strong, as Fred. IMO, Westbrook doesn't have the full SG mentality where he looks for his shot first as Fred does.

I believe at his very worst Westbrook will be an excellent 3rd guard. He will be able to bring defense, penetration, and unselfishness to either backcourt position. I believe that is slightly better than Fred's peak where he has never had the handle or bball IQ to backup the PG position. If Westbrook is able to transition to the PG position, as I believe he will, he has the potential to be a Mookie Blaylock caliber player. In both style (maybe with less range) and caliber.

Anthem
05-24-2008, 01:52 PM
There was never any question than Fred was a small SG
Not true. Donnie called him a "power guard who could play some point" in his first press conference. Throughout the first year, we kept hearing that the team expected to use Fred at the point. Both front office and coaching staff used the phrase "combo guard" repeatedly. He played point for several summer leagues as well.

I'd like to think that Westbrooke's peak is much higher than Fred's peak, but the comparison is certainly valid.

rm1369
05-24-2008, 05:32 PM
Not true. Donnie called him a "power guard who could play some point" in his first press conference. Throughout the first year, we kept hearing that the team expected to use Fred at the point. Both front office and coaching staff used the phrase "combo guard" repeatedly. He played point for several summer leagues as well.

I'd like to think that Westbrooke's peak is much higher than Fred's peak, but the comparison is certainly valid.

I guess I forgot about that. It's no wonder Pacer fans cringe when they hear the term "combo guard".

I double checked all of the analysis on the 2002 draft I could find and not a single site even mentioned him as a SG/PG. Apparently only DW and Isaih thought it was possible. They pretty much all called him an undersized SG that needed to work on his passing and ball handling. IMO Fred was considered a below average ball handler and passer even from the SG position. I'm sure whoever drafts EJ will say that he will spend some time at PG as well, but I don't think their are many people who believe he has any ability to play the position. That is what I remember the prevalant opinion to be on Fred as well.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't see that much similarity between there physical skills or their games.

croz24
05-24-2008, 07:27 PM
westbrook's peak MIGHT be higher than jones', but i still don't think he'll ever be a solid pg.

Jared Jammer
05-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Fred Jones was considered a late 1st to early 2nd round talent that Isiah Thomas became infatuated with. He was always considered an undersized SG.

Russell Westbrook is considered a lottery talent, and has shown enough ability to lead people to believe he can be a point guard in the NBA. He led UCLA in assists despite playing alongside a 1st round-talent Darren Collison. Any way you try and spin it, that's an impressive accomplishment.

The best comparison to Westbrook would probably be Devin Harris. I think Westbrook has the potential to be better though, as he's more physically gifted and has more intensity in his game.

croz24
05-24-2008, 09:31 PM
kofi - devin harris actually played pg in college though. westbrook, not so much...

Anthem
05-24-2008, 09:33 PM
Fred Jones was considered a late 1st to early 2nd round talent that Isiah Thomas became infatuated with.
:banghead: And Walsh let Zeke pick, even though Donnie and all the scouts had agreed on Prince... :banghead:

Major Cold
05-24-2008, 09:53 PM
kofi - devin harris actually played pg in college though. westbrook, not so much...
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

BlueNGold
05-24-2008, 10:07 PM
Are most people expecting Westbrook to be worse than, equal to, or better than Fred Jones at whatever point you feel to have been Fred Jones' peak?

Westbrook will be a better pro than Fred and will exceed Fred's peak which did not amount to anything spectacular. In fact, even at his peak, Fred was a borderline starter. He played a few good games when teams were too busy laughing at our ragtag lineup during the suspensions to guard Freddy.

As for Westbrook's true peak, it's hard to tell. If he becomes the next Devin Harris, that would be special. However, that's the wish list. Something less than that is much more likely. Something between Freddy and Devin is what I expect. Maybe a decent starting PG.

NapTonius Monk
05-24-2008, 10:14 PM
Westbrook will be a better pro than Fred and will exceed Fred's peak which did not amount to anything spectacular. In fact, even at his peak, Fred was a borderline starter. He played a few good games when teams were too busy laughing at our ragtag lineup during the suspensions to guard Freddy.

As for Westbrook's true peak, it's hard to tell. If he becomes the next Devin Harris, that would be special. However, that's the wish list. Something less than that is much more likely. Something between Freddy and Devin is what I expect. Maybe a decent starting PG.

I like the Lehandro Barbosa comparison, and would be totally fine with that.

NapTonius Monk
05-24-2008, 10:36 PM
:banghead: And Walsh let Zeke pick, even though Donnie and all the scouts had agreed on Prince... :banghead:

Fred Jones! Gosh I can't stand Isaiah! His Vinnie Freakin Johnson with Freakin hops! I can still hear his voice like the press conference was yesterday.

Robertmto
05-25-2008, 12:52 AM
Westbrook can't play NBA point. He's not gonna be able to score enough to be an AI or Zero, and he doesn't have the court vision to be traditional point.

rm1369
05-25-2008, 01:28 AM
Westbrook can't play NBA point. He's not gonna be able to score enough to be an AI or Zero, and he doesn't have the court vision to be traditional point.

Why does he have to fit in one of those two molds? I agree he's never going to be a Mark Jackson / John Stockton type distributor, but I certaily believe you can win with the type of production he will bring. Even if he isn't scoring 20+ per game. I'll take 15 pts, 5 assists with above average D. That is well within his abilities IMO.

Jared Jammer
05-25-2008, 01:52 AM
Why does he have to fit in one of those two molds? I agree he's never going to be a Mark Jackson / John Stockton type distributor, but I certaily believe you can win with the type of production he will bring. Even if he isn't scoring 20+ per game. I'll take 15 pts, 5 assists with above average D. That is well within his abilities IMO.

From what's he's shown in college, he could make several All-Defensive teams in his career. he has the potential to be the best defending point guard in the league. I also think he'll eventually be more than a 15/5 guy. Probably closer to 19/6 like a Tony Parker. Maybe even more.

rm1369
05-25-2008, 10:05 AM
From what's he's shown in college, he could make several All-Defensive teams in his career. he has the potential to be the best defending point guard in the league. I also think he'll eventually be more than a 15/5 guy. Probably closer to 19/6 like a Tony Parker. Maybe even more.

I agree. One of the reasons I'm big on Westbrook is because I believe his attitude and his physical skills combine to give him a very high ceiling. I said 15, 5, and good D because I don't believe that will take much more from him than the normal growth you'd expect from a 20 year old. If his game continues to improve as it did from his freshman to sophmore years, he could be a special player.

Anthem
05-25-2008, 04:34 PM
Normally I really don't like point guards who can't point, but I honestly could live with a Dunleavy/Westbrooke backcourt more than a Dun/Ballboy or even Dun/MelMel one.

It certainly would change the team's look with one easy pick. The defense would be a ton better. Whether we'd win more is another question.

Robertmto
05-25-2008, 06:08 PM
Yes because the answer to the Ps point guard problems is drafting another point guard who isn't really a starting point at all. :rolleyes:

BlueNGold
05-25-2008, 06:25 PM
Yes because the answer to the Ps point guard problems is drafting another point guard who isn't really a starting point at all. :rolleyes:

Yep...and oh, that Quis guy is a great PG isn't he...:laugh:.

Nothing like drafting someone with no real NBA position and expecting him to play the most difficult position of all. Anything could happen, but good luck!

Robertmto
05-25-2008, 06:36 PM
Yep...and oh, that Quis guy is a great PG isn't he...:laugh:.

Nothing like drafting someone with no real NBA position and expecting him to play the most difficult position of all. Anything could happen, but good luck!

i've been saying he isn;t a PG ever since the trade. I've said Flip isn;t a point. And Tins and Diener aren;t good enuff options for a starting point, so idk what u r trying to say

rm1369
05-25-2008, 06:37 PM
Yes because the answer to the Ps point guard problems is drafting another point guard who isn't really a starting point at all. :rolleyes:

Obviously the difference is some believe that Westbrook will be a starting caliber PG.

I find the contention that Westbrook will never have the ability to be a starting PG in the NBA a little curious coming from a fan of a team that has Gilbert Arenas as its starting PG. I think Westbrook's shown more ability to play the position in college than Arenas ever did. I don't think Westbrook will be the scorer Arenas is, but I certainly believe he will be a better defender. Which to me is the Pacers single biggest problem. And most importantly, IMO, he's not opposed to getting his teammates involved in the offense.

BlueNGold
05-25-2008, 06:41 PM
i've been saying he isn;t a PG ever since the trade. I've said Flip isn;t a point. And Tins and Diener aren;t good enuff options for a starting point, so idk what u r trying to say

I'm agreeing with you. ...maybe I was not so clear.

What I am saying is that, expecting Westbrook to play PG is similar to expecting Quis to play it or a myriad of other combo guards who have some of the skills but not nearly enough. The only real PG on this team is Tinsley who does not play....

Kraft
05-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Here's the plus side to Westbrook, from someone who's not sold.

Even if he's not a point guard, he's got a chance to be a really good No. 3 guard off the bench. At No. 11, that's not such a bad thing. It's a risk-reward-consolation prize situation.

BlueNGold
05-25-2008, 06:57 PM
Obviously the difference is some believe that Westbrook will be a starting caliber PG.

I find the contention that Westbrook will never have the ability to be a starting PG in the NBA a little curious coming from a fan of a team that has Gilbert Arenas as its starting PG. I think Westbrook's shown more ability to play the position in college than Arenas ever did. I don't think Westbrook will be the scorer Arenas is, but I certainly believe he will be a better defender. Which to me is the Pacers single biggest problem. And most importantly, IMO, he's not opposed to getting his teammates involved in the offense.

Arenas is an NBA all-star with skills to bring the ball up the court. He's like Iverson...but not even that good at PG. If he was not a scoring machine, he would not be starting. The truth is, his PG skills are not that great and he's mainly valuable because he can get his own shot and score 30ppg on a regular basis. His assist totals have never been that good...while his ppg has been where he adds value...like a SG...which he really is.

So Arenas is actually a reason NOT to draft Westbrook because Arenas is the rare exception to the rule. Westbrook might turn out to fall into that exception as well, but the odds are long....particularly when it is unlikely Westbrook will be nearly as explosive on offense.

Jared Jammer
05-25-2008, 07:04 PM
After noticing the striking similarities between Westbrook and Devin Harris' games, I decided to do some statistical research, and it seems the numbers back-up my observations.

Harris' freshman and sophomore seasons vs Westbrooks sophomore season. I felt it was only fair to include Harris' freshman season in the comparison since this was Westbrooks first season of real minutes (he played just 9 mpg as a freshman).

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6936/westbrookharrisej1.gif

Very similar games and skillsets coming out of college. Westbrook is slightly bigger and more athletic than Harris, who went #5, so if we can nab him at #11 it would be a steal.



Here's the plus side to Westbrook, from someone who's not sold.

Even if he's not a point guard, he's got a chance to be a really good No. 3 guard off the bench. At No. 11, that's not such a bad thing. It's a risk-reward-consolation prize situation.

Exactly. Even if he doesn't become a full-fledged point guard, he can still be a good shooting guard. His offensive game clearly has the potential for greatness, and he's already a top-notch defender. He's not nearly as big a risk as people think he is.

rm1369
05-25-2008, 11:16 PM
Arenas is an NBA all-star with skills to bring the ball up the court. He's like Iverson...but not even that good at PG. If he was not a scoring machine, he would not be starting. The truth is, his PG skills are not that great and he's mainly valuable because he can get his own shot and score 30ppg on a regular basis. His assist totals have never been that good...while his ppg has been where he adds value...like a SG...which he really is.

So Arenas is actually a reason NOT to draft Westbrook because Arenas is the rare exception to the rule. Westbrook might turn out to fall into that exception as well, but the odds are long....particularly when it is unlikely Westbrook will be nearly as explosive on offense.

My point is that I don't believe a PG has to fall into the "quarterback" style to be effective. I certainly understand that Arenas's value is based on his scoring ability, but considering half the game is played at the other end of the court I don't understand why Westbrooks defensive ability isn't as valuable. Especially seeing how it could be easily argued that Arenas' tendency to call his own shot is a detrement to his team even if he is scoring 30.

If you don't believe Westbrook has a good enough handle to advance the ball against pressure then I disagree with that, but I understand your reasoning for questioning his value at PG. If you simply believe Westbrook is not a classic "quarterback" or a prolific scorer and he therfore has no business playing PG, then I simply don't understand the logic. Why is a scoring guard OK, but not a defensive guard?

Westbrook started games at PG, played backup PG, and led his team in assists. He's 20 years old and his coach has said he would be the starting PG next year if he returned and Collison went to the NBA. Yet people seem to believe he has no ability to handle the position. If only he played matador D and could drop 30 on you then he would make an acceptable PG. I just don't get the logic.

If he can get the ball across half court, play 70+ games, and stay in front of his man - even a little - he'd be a huge improvment over the Pacers current options. Call him whatever you want.

rm1369
05-25-2008, 11:26 PM
Exactly. Even if he doesn't become a full-fledged point guard, he can still be a good shooting guard. His offensive game clearly has the potential for greatness, and he's already a top-notch defender. He's not nearly as big a risk as people think he is.

I absolutely love him for the Pacers for that reason. While I believe he has huge potential I also believe he is an extremely safe pick because at the very worst you know he will be NBA caliber at two skills the Pacers desperately need - perimeter D and attacking the rim with the dribble. He also adds much needed athleticism to a team that sorely lacks it.

Unfortunantly I don't believe he will be available at 11. He's the type of player that will move up after workouts. IMO, he was held back by UCLA's system.

Justin Tyme
05-26-2008, 12:03 PM
I absolutely love him for the Pacers for that reason. While I believe he has huge potential I also believe he is an extremely safe pick because at the very worst you know he will be NBA caliber at two skills the Pacers desperately need - perimeter D and attacking the rim with the dribble. He also adds much needed athleticism to a team that sorely lacks it.

Unfortunantly I don't believe he will be available at 11. He's the type of player that will move up after workouts. IMO, he was held back by UCLA's system.


I agree in that I don't believe Westbrook will be available at the Pacers #11 pick. If for some reason he is, then he should be the Pacers pick. The Pacers haven't had perimeter D for 3 years, and b/c of the lack of D the Pacers have suffered in almost all their games. Westbrook will provide the D that has been lacking. He's not a one dimension player like OG, who's D was suppose to be his forte. Westbrook has a game to go along with his D that OG never had nor will ever have. He's better now than any PG the Pacers have on their roster "that plays." I firmly believe Westbrook is a good solid pick who can play PG for the Pacers. I see no reason he can't end up being a top 8-12 PG in this league. JMOAA

There are others who you will never convince he is a good choice at #11, but it is a moot point b/c I don't see Westbrook being available at the Pacers 11 pick.

For those that feel Bird is going to be able to get a good PG, Hinrich or whomever, during the off season through a trade, you need to get back to the world of reality. This is the same Bird many GM's wouldn't deal with in the past. You can take Bird out of the hicks, but you can't take the hick out of Bird! Don't pin your hopes on much more than last year type changes with the exception of having the 11th pick this year.

Ownership isn't going to allow Bird to go over the LT, so no FA of any consequence again this off season. Any moves will have to be thru trades, and I don't see any blockbuster trades happening with the limited trading chips the Pacers have. It's fun to fantasize, but fantasies aren't going to change the Pacers for next year. I just don't see a big re-vamping of the current roster for next season. Hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. JMOAA

scott55
05-26-2008, 09:56 PM
Well for what the Pacers try to do i think Westbrook could be a good fit. JOB loves to push the ball and play up-tempo...Westbrook is very athletic and fast so i think he could be a good fit at guard. Also we have Dunleavy who we can run the offense through at times to take pressure off him.

On defense he'll get after the opposing teams pg..which as previously stated is a huge need for our team.

Not saying it will happen...just some possibilities and JMO.