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View Full Version : Michael versus Kobe: Whose better?



GrangerRanger
05-13-2008, 11:13 PM
First off, I'm a huge Kobe and Michael fan. However, I give the edge to Michael because he had done more by 30 then Kobe has and Kobe has been in the league longer. Just watch this vid and make your own conclusion. Hopefully it will spark some good conversation.

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Kstat
05-13-2008, 11:14 PM
Jordan put up defensive numbers Kobe will never touch.

Granted, Kobe will take a lot of Jordan's scoring records, but Jordan overall was simply better than Kobe's best so far.

Hoop
05-13-2008, 11:16 PM
Jordan, not even close, no debate needed.

Shade
05-13-2008, 11:17 PM
Like Kstat said, Kobe is a little better on offense, but Jordan was much better on defense.

GrangerRanger
05-13-2008, 11:19 PM
Kobe has played 13 seasons.. Michael has played 13 seasons. Scoring wise, I think Michael is still on top.

JayRedd
05-13-2008, 11:21 PM
Kobe is more talented*. Michael is better.




















* range.

Dece
05-13-2008, 11:22 PM
MJ was way better than Kobe on offense, that's ridiculous. Kobe just takes more shots.

MJ had 10 consecutive seasons shooting better than 48% from the field. 5 consecutive seasons shooting over 50% from the field, 3 of which were over 53%. Kobe's best FG% ever? 46.9%. It's not even a competition, Kobe has massive statflation, and MJ destroys him in every way.

JayRedd
05-13-2008, 11:25 PM
And that, among many other reasons, is why.

Evan_The_Dude
05-13-2008, 11:26 PM
That video was flat out eerie. I wish Michael was Kobe's age so we could see them go head to head. I'd give the edge to Michael, but they're pretty damn close.

themayhem87
05-13-2008, 11:31 PM
not close, MJ

Dece
05-13-2008, 11:34 PM
In regards to the range thing, neither one has very good range when you look at Kobe's 3pt %, Jordan was just smart enough to play to his strengths and not settle for the outside jumper as much, as a result he was a much more efficient scorer with a much better fg%.

Kobe is a career 35% 3pt shooter. That's worse than two of Jamaal Tinsley's *who everyone hates shooting 3's* seasons. Really, he's be a much better player if he shot less long balls. Similarly, Jordan was a career 33% 3 pt shooter. So both ideas, 1) that Kobe has good range and 2) that Kobe has better range than Mike are false, unless you really think 2% is much better range.

BlueNGold
05-13-2008, 11:43 PM
MJ.

I do think the video is interesting...and Kobe is crazy good...maybe more talented in fact, but I watched hundreds of Bulls games and MJ was simply more obsessed with winning. MJ appears to work harder perhaps maximizing his talent more often while Kobe takes some plays off. I also doubt Kobe could lead the Bulls as well as MJ did. JMHO.

Infinite MAN_force
05-13-2008, 11:50 PM
I had this debate with a guy I work with like a month ago. I looked up the stats. from the ages of 21-29 was the basis of my comparison, so I did not count kobe's early years or Jordan's later years. Jordan was better at everything except three point shooting. His scoring average for that span was better, rebounds and assists were virtually the same, but Jordan had more steals. Jordan's FG % was also better and his three point % was not signifigantly worse.

If Jordan's defense and intangibles are a given, than there is really no debate here. I would not say Kobe has more talent. The only thing kobe did was shoot a little better from behind the arc.

JayRedd
05-13-2008, 11:54 PM
In regards to the range thing, neither one has very good range when you look at Kobe's 3pt %, Jordan was just smart enough to play to his strengths and not settle for the outside jumper as much, as a result he was a much more efficient scorer with a much better fg%.

Kobe is a career 35% 3pt shooter. That's worse than two of Jamaal Tinsley's *who everyone hates shooting 3's* seasons. Really, he's be a much better player if he shot less long balls. Similarly, Jordan was a career 33% 3 pt shooter. So both ideas, 1) that Kobe has good range and 2) that Kobe has better range than Mike are false, unless you really think 2% is much better range.

Well, the fact that he shoots too many threes -- many of which are horrible shots -- is just one of the things that makes MJ the undeniably superior player.

But I'm not sure the percentages tell the whole tale here. And I'm not trying to say Kobe is Ray Allen by any means, but he definitely has range in the sense that he is more than capable of hitting shots from deep. Nope, he does not have the consistency from deep or the good decision-making to use that tool effectively, but he takes and makes threes up to several feet behind the line.

Jordan literally had no range when he entered the League and certainly was never capable of of pulling up two feet behind the line even by the end of the second three-peat.

In my eyes, this is just another argument for MJ though, really.

Not only did Jordan optimize his talents and bettter understand his limitataions (ok...limitation) but he also didn't benefit in terms of being able to penetrate more effectively by pulling his defender that one step further out that Kobe gets because, whether the percentages say it's true or not, the people guarding Mamba respect his ability -- and willingness -- to pull up from behind the arc if he's given an inch of space.

So, basically what I'm saying is that range is the one extra "tool" that Kobe has that MJ never did. Other than that, they can both do everything and anything that can be done on a basketball court (though MJ does pretty much all of those either slightly or significantly better). That one extra tool is the only reason I said that Kobe "has more talent." To use a baseball analogy, if MJ was a "37-tool player" than Kobe was a 38-tool player. That's all I meant.

But I do agree that Kobe doesn't use that one extra tool effectively, Dece. His percentages should be better than that but he just takes too many horrible, off-balance and closely guarded threes. Maybe he's overconfident...maybe he's lazy. I dunno.

But in an open gym, I don't even think MJ would argue that Kobe is the better shooter from 24 feet...especially during MJ's 20s before he really developed any jumper beyond 20 feet to speak of at all.

AesopRockOn
05-13-2008, 11:57 PM
MJ was simply more obsessed with winning.

I think this is key. No one had the will that Jordan had (except Larry maybe?) and Kobe, though a real gamer (he's playing with at least two big injuries right now, maybe three) and complete talent, just can't reach Jordan on that psychological level. The only player who can stop Kobe is Kobe (and Shane Battier maybe) but no one was stopping MJ. As much as I can remember anyway. The rings are important too.

Dece
05-13-2008, 11:59 PM
That's probably more than fair, I'll admit if I had to choose one to make a 3 pointer to save my life, I'd take Kobe, and I will also admit to purposefully shifting to career 3 point percentages because it benefited my argument... MJ developed a bit more range later in his career because his quickness was starting to decline.

Either way, we agree Kobe takes too many long shots, and MJ was a better scorer, defender, and had better intangibles, so there isn't much to argue.

Dece
05-14-2008, 12:01 AM
I think I remember Gary Payton frustrating MJ a few times. Not exactly stopping him, no one really stops either of them, but at least frustrating.

SycamoreKen
05-14-2008, 12:03 AM
Jordon by far. He did put in a lot of work on his outside game as he got older. When he was on he was on. Ask Utah, I think.

tdubb03
05-14-2008, 12:03 AM
MJ

And language in the vid NSFW, BTW

Kemo
05-14-2008, 12:29 AM
Something you all must consider........


is the fact of the different time periods...

Jordan played against SUPERSTARS along the likes of Larry Bird , Reggie Miller , Magic Johnson , Patrick Ewing , Zeke Thomas , .... and the list goes on......

No disrespect to the legit stars and guys in the NBA now , but as a whole...the guys that Kobe plays against ... couldn't hold the jockstraps of the guys that Jordan played against.....

and that is FACT !!

dohman
05-14-2008, 01:14 AM
Something you all must consider........


is the fact of the different time periods...

Jordan played against SUPERSTARS along the likes of Larry Bird , Reggie Miller , Magic Johnson , Patrick Ewing , Zeke Thomas , .... and the list goes on......

No disrespect to the legit stars and guys in the NBA now , but as a whole...the guys that Kobe plays against ... couldn't hold the jockstraps of the guys that Jordan played against.....

and that is FACT !!

no offense but that post is crap. I grew up watching those guys as well and to say players like KG, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, couldnt hold their jock is crazy. I do agree the league is softer then it was but it has also changed a lot tempo wise.

Kemo
05-14-2008, 01:22 AM
whatever man... it is all opinions...

you take superstars from the 80's in their prime , and match em up with stars of today... and you would see today's stars get schooled on how to play basketball.. lol

this isn't like a game of NBA Live ..

duke dynamite
05-14-2008, 02:04 AM
I agree with Kemo, but Then I have to put in my two cents here.

Each era has it's superstars. Obviously the level of talent in each differs.

I would never deny Mr. Jordan the honor of being one of the best in the history of the league.

On the other hand, Kobe has put up a lot of numbers. But I wouldn't put this comparison up against just Kobe and Michael. You need to factor Wilt the Stilt and maybe a few others into the mix.

Also, don't forget Magic.


I will leave you all on this:
Jordan has how many championships again? lol

andreialta
05-14-2008, 02:15 AM
MJ hands down!!

skyfire
05-14-2008, 03:29 AM
The changes to the defensive rules that have come in since MJ retired have made it easier for this generation of swing men to attack the hoop.

Jordan might have averaged 40ppg if he was playing in his prime today.

Kobe is very good, but Jordan was better in almost every discernible way.

Eindar
05-14-2008, 05:30 AM
MJ, no question, no debate, although a lot of valid points as to why MJ was better (no Shaq, better defender, greater will).

For me, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it seems like Kobe wasn't putting up these huge numbers until they got rid of the hand check, which Jordan didn't get to use. How many PPG would Jordan have had if there were no handchecking during his title runs?

Arcadian
05-14-2008, 06:33 AM
If Kobe played in Jordan's time, we would be asking who is better Clyde or Kobe.

Major Cold
05-14-2008, 07:57 AM
Alright I have read and thought about this. The media gives Kobe too much credit. But with that the margin of overall talent is almost identical.

Jordan was capable of maintaining his greatness even though elements of life and success could have hindered him. Kobe was a different player with the rape case and losing Shaq and Phil. Kobe does not make the players around him better like MJ. Paul and LeBron do that better than Kobe. Kobe is a lead horse not the horseman.

Kobe is a better scorer. He has more moves to the basket than MJ did. But when you put an elite defender on him with an elite frontcourt , he clearly is not as effective. Not very many opposing teams have that is the years of Kobe, Pistons are the only that come to mind. But Jordan had to face that almost every playoff series. The defense was allowed to hinder Jordan more so than Kobe has ever even dreamed of.

Kobe is a product of his enviroment. Jordan made his enviroment. It is clear that Kobe has the cloud of Laker greatness over his head. But Jordan created a legacy in the franchise he played for. That is something Magic, Bird, or Kobe can say they have never done.

While Kobe may be a greater scoring threat today, MJ was close in a defensivley brutal league, while winning on a level that Kobe has just begun to scratch. I am not sure Kobe will ever get the respect MJ has, even if he wins 3 more titles. Kobe is a player in the mold of MJ. He may crack the mold. But he can never recreate it.

count55
05-14-2008, 08:48 AM
Bird and Magic were the two most ultracompetitive players I'd ever seen, until Jordan came along.

He matched amazing athleticism with a laser-like focus on winning.

When he came in the league, his jumper was spotty, and, as mentioned, he was never a deadly three point shooter, but...once he became money on that 20 foot jumper from the wing, it was all over but the shouting.

I think Kobe is an outstanding talent, but, as much as I hated Jordan when he played, it's just as obvious now as it was then that he was (and is) the best ever to lace 'em up.

Speed
05-14-2008, 10:19 AM
Kobe is better offensively?

I disagree.

When MJ completely tried to score he was unstoppable. I think he averaged close to 40 one year if I'm not mistaken.

MJ "got it" alot quicker and also he reinvented himself about half way through his career. No knock on Kobe, although its hard to be objective, but MJ is probably the greatest ever.

Kobe is one of the best right now and in recent history.

Now I'll objectively revisit this if he wins the next 3 in a row.

MJ in a landslide, imo.

spreedom
05-14-2008, 10:53 AM
I definitely think Jordan is better... but at the same time, Kobe is a top-5 all-time talent in my book, and arguably the second greatest shooting guard in league history.

Major Cold
05-14-2008, 11:40 AM
no doubt Kobe is the second best SG of all time.

Ownagedood
05-14-2008, 11:45 AM
Wow, I was just thinkin bout this last weekend.. MJ all the way. Not only was he the best offensive player, he was also the best defensive player.

JayRedd
05-14-2008, 01:43 PM
I definitely think Jordan is better... but at the same time, Kobe is a top-5 all-time talent in my book, and arguably the second greatest shooting guard in league history.

Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem and Oscar think your book needs some copy editing.

Mourning
05-14-2008, 01:47 PM
MJ and it's not even close. Kobe is a great, great player all by himself, but MJ was on a different level both offensively, defensively in will power and game smarts. I would have to say that Kobe does have that sort of clutch quality that Jordan possessed. Not as much, but it's not much less either IMO.

Overall though MJ in a landslide and that's not at all a knock on Kobe.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

spreedom
05-14-2008, 04:05 PM
Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem and Oscar think your book needs some copy editing.


Welcome to America... where you are allowed to disagree with me!

Naptown_Seth
05-14-2008, 04:14 PM
MJ was way better than Kobe on offense, that's ridiculous. Kobe just takes more shots.

MJ had 10 consecutive seasons shooting better than 48% from the field. 5 consecutive seasons shooting over 50% from the field, 3 of which were over 53%. Kobe's best FG% ever? 46.9%. It's not even a competition, Kobe has massive statflation, and MJ destroys him in every way.
Without yet looking at it let me suggest that we make sure to compare EFFECTIVE FG% because Mike stunk from 3. 10 for 20 from 2 is 20 points, 7 of 20 is 21 points despite being a worse FG%

I'm not saying Kobe beats him, I'm saying that's the number we should compare them with, not FG%. I also think you consider fouls drawn with the Points per Shot number.

The caveats here are 1) Jordan rules helped his PPS/fouls drawn and 2) Jordan had a couple of years with the shorter 3pt line I believe, though I think his retirement was also during this period.


Jordan was a MUCH better leader, despite the attitude he took with guys, and was a MUCH more dedicated and capable defender.

Arcadian
05-14-2008, 04:18 PM
Today's hand checking rules should also be a caveat.

Kemo
05-14-2008, 08:50 PM
as someone else above said.

what really makes MJ stand out so much more other than the obvious , is the fact he made EVERYONE on his team better players..

The only player in the league right now I can honestly say does that as well is Lebron ...

Give Lebron a few more years.. and I see him surpassing Kobe as far as the scoring...
But as far as LEADERSHIP , Lebron has Kobe beat by hurdles...

BoomBaby31
05-14-2008, 09:17 PM
You have to go with MJ because Michael is the originator and Kobe is the imitator. This isn't intentional but Michael changed the game, maybe forever. Michael did everything first and even though Kobe can do the exact same thing Michael was the originator so he gets the credit as best ever. Just like in Pop music Michael Jackson was the King and no one will ever touch his moves because he is the originator and everyone is the imitator. Personally, I'd take Jordan of course but Kobe is no no no doubt the best player in the league and the second best 2guard ever.

JayRedd
05-14-2008, 09:20 PM
Without yet looking at it let me suggest that we make sure to compare EFFECTIVE FG% because Mike stunk from 3. 10 for 20 from 2 is 20 points, 7 of 20 is 21 points despite being a worse FG%

I'm not saying Kobe beats him, I'm saying that's the number we should compare them with, not FG%. I also think you consider fouls drawn with the Points per Shot number.

The caveats here are 1) Jordan rules helped his PPS/fouls drawn and 2) Jordan had a couple of years with the shorter 3pt line I believe, though I think his retirement was also during this period.


Jordan was a MUCH better leader, despite the attitude he took with guys, and was a MUCH more dedicated and capable defender.

You plan on posting those eFG% numbers?

And I'd argue that the Jordan Rules -- which were really only substantially in effect for a few years and only by a few teams -- led to many fewer extra free throws than the no hand check rule has created for Kobe.

Major Cold
05-14-2008, 09:37 PM
The hand check rules started in 95 I thought?

croz24
05-15-2008, 12:12 AM
what's the point of this thread?

Trader Joe
05-15-2008, 12:18 AM
what's the point of this thread?

What is your deal?

dohman
05-15-2008, 12:43 AM
what's the point of this thread?

whats the point of you being a memeber?

Kemo
05-15-2008, 01:09 AM
LMAO!!

Robertmto
05-15-2008, 02:05 AM
No but seriously, what IS the point of this thread? Kobe is not close to MJ. not close. At all. Theres a gap as big as the Grand Canyon between MJ and anybody, let alone Kobe.

MJ was THAT good.

Speed
05-15-2008, 08:58 AM
what's the point of this thread?

What's the point of this post? How's Detroit's mental toughness doing?

Da Smash Jr????

Unclebuck
05-15-2008, 09:50 AM
Michael was better

#31
05-15-2008, 10:19 AM
Michael was better

JayRedd
05-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Where is Graham when you need him?

spreedom
05-15-2008, 11:28 AM
No but seriously, what IS the point of this thread?

Heaven forbid we want to pass time with interesting conversation.... I don't think the gap is nearly as big as everyone is suggesting.

Major Cold
05-15-2008, 03:44 PM
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I think this answers it. Most kids want to be like LeBron.

SoupIsGood
05-15-2008, 04:34 PM
Where is Graham when you need him?

No kidding. Just when I thought Graham was really hitting his stride and becoming a truly dominate protector of usage everywhere.

Hoop
05-15-2008, 05:18 PM
Heaven forbid we want to pass time with interesting conversation.... I don't think the gap is nearly as big as everyone is suggesting.Yes, it is.

Robertmto
05-15-2008, 05:51 PM
Yes, it is.

x2

MJ




































































Kobe

spreedom
05-16-2008, 09:19 AM
Well, we can agree to disagree then. I think Kobe's close... not to mention the fact that he could still have 10 years of really good ball in him.

carpediem024
05-17-2008, 04:55 PM
MJ is far better than Kobe but Kobe is closest one to ever come close to him.

ABADays
05-17-2008, 11:07 PM
Tough call. Let me think a nano seco (interrupts nano second) MJ EASILY.