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Roaming Gnome
05-11-2008, 01:37 PM
It's a Full-Court Press To Lure Fans to Fieldhouse ( http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080510/OPINION08/805100389/1301/ARCHIVE&template=printart)

May 10, 2008




The Star's position: Pacers’ leadership team working hard to turn around troubled franchise.

Herb Simon and Jim Morris want to deliver a message to Pacers fans: They get it.

In a meeting this week with The Star's Editorial Board, Simon, the Pacers' co-owner and new CEO, and Morris, in charge of the franchise's business operations, acknowledged how far out of favor the team has fallen with the community.

How bad is it? In a city and state filled with dedicated and knowledgeable basketball fans, the Pacers recorded the worst attendance in the NBA this season.

Morris, who not long ago was fighting the effects of famine and natural disasters as director of the United Nations' World Food Program, is now battling to restore the tarnished image of a team that he considers an important part of Central Indiana's social and business fabric.

The franchise's troubles began with the infamous Detroit brawl but have deepened in subsequent years as players became embroiled in several off-the-court scandals.

It's not surprising then that Morris calls character a paramount consideration in rebuilding the team's roster, including through this year's draft. He noted that when focus groups have been asked to pick between a player with great skills but questionable behavior and one with lesser talent but sound character, the fans chose character.

Not that winning isn't important in reconnecting with the community. After all, much of the good will the team built up with the city in seasons past grew out of the excitement generated by playoff battles with the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers.

But fans want a team they can be proud of for excellence on and off the court. To reach that goal, Morris promises to increase the team's involvement in the community and to improve the franchise's support services for young players who must learn to cope with wealth, fame and a multitude of readily available temptations.

As the team's co-owner, Simon has a personal and financial stake in turning around the franchise, which a few years ago was considered among the NBA's best. He hopes to see improvement on the court next season, but acknowledges that salary-cap constraints could require a three-year rebuilding process.

Simon also wants fans to understand that another community institution -- the WNBA's Fever -- is entering a period critical to its future. The organization has assembled a championship-caliber roster. Ticket prices are low. Yet attendance must grow if the franchise is to finally break even. Simon's ability to continue writing off the Fever's financial losses is no doubt constrained by the Pacers' problems.

Two teams. Two sets of challenges. And not much time for either to begin packing fans into the Fieldhouse.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080510/OPINION08/805100389/1301/ARCHIVE&template=printart
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't want this to slip between the cracks since this article showed up in the opinion section of Saturday's front page section.

McKeyFan
05-11-2008, 01:46 PM
Three years later . . . Herb gets it.

Pretty exciting news.

Putnam
05-11-2008, 01:52 PM
I'm pleased. This makes robertmto's question in the other current thread unnecessary. We don't need to choose between character and talent. We're going to get a team with both.

We just need to reset the clock on our expectations and impatience. We need to forget that it is "three years later." This is Day One.

croz24
05-11-2008, 02:26 PM
umm, WRONG! the fans want a team who wins and has some semblance of a future. tinsley, shawne, and daniels are really the only three players on the team with "character issues", which is pretty good for one nba team. tinsley played in 39 games. so they're telling me that nobody showed up to the games because of shawne williams and marquis daniels? i find that VERY hard to believe. the real reason nobody showed up is because there is zero direction for this team and the ineptness of management...

Kegboy
05-11-2008, 02:53 PM
If Herb wants Fever attendance to grow, maybe he shouldn't have let Dunn become the head coach.

BobbyMac
05-11-2008, 03:28 PM
Perhaps the Fever should go away and then the team can concentrate on the Pacers.

Roaming Gnome
05-11-2008, 03:58 PM
Speaking of "resetting the clock"...

The last negative headline involving the Indiana Pacers was:
74 Days ago

Putnam
05-11-2008, 04:07 PM
tinsley, shawne, and daniels are really the only three players on the team with "character issues"

David Harrison.



tinsley played in 39 games. so they're telling me that nobody showed up to the games because of shawne williams and marquis daniels? i find that VERY hard to believe.

You don't have to believe it. The people who aren't coming to the games any more also aren't following how many minutes Tinsley or any other player is playing. It doesn't matter how many minutes he plays: he (and the other bad citizens) are still on the team.

Hicks
05-11-2008, 04:17 PM
umm, WRONG! the fans want a team who wins and has some semblance of a future. tinsley, shawne, and daniels are really the only three players on the team with "character issues", which is pretty good for one nba team. tinsley played in 39 games. so they're telling me that nobody showed up to the games because of shawne williams and marquis daniels? i find that VERY hard to believe. the real reason nobody showed up is because there is zero direction for this team and the ineptness of management...

If the team started at "0" on the scale of "problems or lack thereof", then this roster, while nothing to love, isn't really a problem. The problem with this roster, however, is that it exists at a time when the past 4 years have us somewhere on the negative side of the scale. If right now was as bad as it's recently been, there wouldn't be such an issue over it. But they're relics of a recent bigger problem, and until they're out it's like that era hasn't really ended.

Lord Helmet
05-11-2008, 04:25 PM
Took them long enough to figure out we had a problem.

This rebuilding process is going to take a while, so some fans might have to brace themselves in.

I expect this fall to be about the same as last year, just hopefully no Pacers in police reports.

Maybe we'll get another lame slogan this fall:

"One Goal: United: No Police Reports!"

madison
05-11-2008, 05:08 PM
With all due respect to Mr. Simon, are we sure he 'gets it'? Bird's still in charge of the franchise and he cannot judge talent nor can he make intelligent trades. Rebuilding is not seen by this fan, at least, as a likely outcome now or three years from now. If Mr. Simon wants me to shell out another $12K for season tickets the next three years while he waits for the bad contracts to expire, then Mr. Simon will have to make me some kind of concession. He might wish to start by asking his customer service rep to call me because I haven't renewed for next season. Maybe TPTB aren't too worried about putting fans in the seats next year, after all. 'Getting it' must mean something different to billionaires.

MyFavMartin
05-12-2008, 03:04 AM
umm, WRONG! the fans want a team who wins and has some semblance of a future. tinsley, shawne, and daniels are really the only three players on the team with "character issues", which is pretty good for one nba team. tinsley played in 39 games. so they're telling me that nobody showed up to the games because of shawne williams and marquis daniels? i find that VERY hard to believe. the real reason nobody showed up is because there is zero direction for this team and the ineptness of management...

forget about Harrison?

croz24
05-12-2008, 04:42 AM
no, didn't forget about harrison...he's just that worthless...doesn't deserve a mention...

RamBo_Lamar
05-12-2008, 10:24 AM
My question is, what exactly does Simon want the Star's editorial board to do?

Reel in Kravitz?

Not report when something negative happens?

Not be critical of the Pacer's inaction for not making necessary changes?

Naptown_Seth
05-12-2008, 12:00 PM
Speaking of "resetting the clock"...

The last negative headline involving the Indiana Pacers was:
74 Days ago
The article/thread title makes me wonder if Herb didn't also "suggest" that the Star get their act together regarding the intentional negative spin. Things have happened certainly, but as the Harrison story shows there are a lot of ways things can be handled. Still waiting on Daniels to be brought in for that alleged rape in his house.

And even there it's not that it wasn't true, it's that one version takes the angle that Quis himself is part victim, that some criminal took action against one of his guests in his own home. And the other angle is "probably Quis friend attacking some lady". Honestly, does anyone at PD know if Quis was closer to the woman than the man? Did anyone even see that story having the angle that a friend of his was the victim?

That's what I'm talking about. It was the same with Williams. It wasn't that his friend let this guy hang around or that some old buddy with a high intimidation factor (being a potential murder tends to bring that out) forced his way back into Shawne's life, it was that Williams himself was going out of his way to support violent criminals because he 100% supports that behavior.

Same story, DRASTICALLY different skews. And I'm certain that ratings, readership and sensationalism never played into it. The Star has way too much integrity to allow that to go on.

NuffSaid
05-12-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm pleased. This makes robertmto's question in the other current thread unnecessary. We don't need to choose between character and talent. We're going to get a team with both.

We just need to reset the clock on our expectations and impatience. We need to forget that it is "three years later." This is Day One.
Now, finally another fan gets it! I've been saying for the last 2-yrs now that the Pacers' fanbase needs to lower their expectations, specifically concerning certain players, i.e., JO. I like him. I just don't think he's capable of doing the things most fans "expect" of him. Again, this isn't a knock on JO. You just have to look at things realistically. And realistically, JO's just not a "take over the game" type of player. He will net you between 12-18 ppg, 2-3 asst, 2 blks, appx 7-8 rbds even on a bad leg. But he'll never be a "game winner" type player in clutch-time. It's just not who he is nor should it be. That job should be reserved for out Guards/Wings not our Center/PF. But that's just my opinion...

NuffSaid
05-12-2008, 01:49 PM
The article/thread title makes me wonder if Herb didn't also "suggest" that the Star get their act together regarding the intentional negative spin. Things have happened certainly, but as the Harrison story shows there are a lot of ways things can be handled. Still waiting on Daniels to be brought in for that alleged rape in his house.

And even there it's not that it wasn't true, it's that one version takes the angle that Quis himself is part victim, that some criminal took action against one of his guests in his own home. And the other angle is "probably Quis friend attacking some lady". Honestly, does anyone at PD know if Quis was closer to the woman than the man? Did anyone even see that story having the angle that a friend of his was the victim?

That's what I'm talking about. It was the same with Williams. It wasn't that his friend let this guy hang around or that some old buddy with a high intimidation factor (being a potential murder tends to bring that out) forced his way back into Shawne's life, it was that Williams himself was going out of his way to support violent criminals because he 100% supports that behavior.

Same story, DRASTICALLY different skews. And I'm certain that ratings, readership and sensationalism never played into it. The Star has way too much integrity to allow that to go on.
Very good points, Seth.

The same could be said about Harrison's tiraide after the Suns' game where he allegedly "destroyed" the locker room. Granted, the emotionally explosive event couldn't have taken place at the worse time for him coming off the heals of a suspension for drug use, but did any of the local (or national) reports ever get to the heart of the matter, i.e., why Harrison went off? Was it that calls seemed to be going only one way the entire game - against Harrison - even when he was doing the exact same things as the player he was guarding? Nobody talked to him nor reported what he viewed as biasness against him. All they wanted to report was either "another Pacer gone wild" or "David Harrison's in trouble again".

Okay, so I'm splitting hairs somewhat, but my point is it's easy for the media to just focus on what sells the storyline. They just forget sometimes that a story often times has two sides. To this day we've never gotten the barebones facts as to what set David off so bad that day. Perhaps because most viewed the incident as David merely losing his temper again, or that he still hadn't grasped the nauaences of the game or could be as simple as he just wasn't treated fairly by the refs but any negative words against officiated would only have warrented a further reprimand by the league?

One small story in the grand scheme of things, but it just goes to illustrate how even the local media was out to paint the Pacers in the worse possible light as often as they could whenever they could. I mean, I had to go outside the local media just to find a feel-good story about them last year.

Roaming Gnome
05-12-2008, 04:52 PM
The article/thread title makes me wonder if Herb didn't also "suggest" that the Star get their act together regarding the intentional negative spin. Things have happened certainly, but as the Harrison story shows there are a lot of ways things can be handled. Still waiting on Daniels to be brought in for that alleged rape in his house.

And even there it's not that it wasn't true, it's that one version takes the angle that Quis himself is part victim, that some criminal took action against one of his guests in his own home. And the other angle is "probably Quis friend attacking some lady". Honestly, does anyone at PD know if Quis was closer to the woman than the man? Did anyone even see that story having the angle that a friend of his was the victim?

That's what I'm talking about. It was the same with Williams. It wasn't that his friend let this guy hang around or that some old buddy with a high intimidation factor (being a potential murder tends to bring that out) forced his way back into Shawne's life, it was that Williams himself was going out of his way to support violent criminals because he 100% supports that behavior.

Same story, DRASTICALLY different skews. And I'm certain that ratings, readership and sensationalism never played into it. The Star has way too much integrity to allow that to go on.


It's not that I'm giving the Indianapolis Colts a break because they won a Super Bowl, or because they have earned a reputation for having high-character players.

It's not that I'm going easy on a potentially troubling and ultimately devastating story involving a fan favorite.

It's not that I'm going soft (on Marvin Harrison) because The Star is pro-Colts and anti-Pacers, although I can assure you there are a lot of folks at Pacers Sports & Entertainment who are wondering where the outrage is.


I find it interesting that Kravitz had to explain himself on why he wasn't tossing Marvin Harrison under the bus. I guess this is a far cry from RTV6 running an on-line pole on whether Jamaal Tinsley should have been "disciplined" by the team after being nearly murdered in the street.

pacergod2
05-12-2008, 05:01 PM
Ever since the brawl the Pacers players have been under a microscope. Do you think the Pacers players have gotten into THAT much more trouble than the players in other cities get away with? Not hardly. Players can get away with a lot more in New York, Miami, Oakland, LA, where there are more pressing needs of the police departments in those cities. I am sure the Indy police department is under a microscope too. Plus, other stories drown out what other teams' players do because the media has bigger and better stories than a basketball player failing a drug test.

I am not making excuses for our players by any means, but to say that these things don't happen to other teams is ridiculous. Our organization thinks there is a problem with our players' actions and there is. We the fans, and especially the media just make a much bigger deal out of it, because its the same Pacers players that got in the brawl. The organization is frustrated with other problems, such as injuries, poor attendance, and NOT WINNING, and we make off-the court issues a primary objective in the outlook of our franchise. So, we need to change the culture, and in that, we mean until we start winning with a new generation of players, nobody on our roster will get the benefit of the doubt.

I like Shawne Williams and understand a lot of where he came from. He is a young man who has learned the hard way just like a lot of people in this world. I think he has a tremendous future in the NBA if he can understand that a big component of growing up is understanding who brings you down as a human being and who does not. Its about surrounding yourself with decent people to make your life better and more rewarding. Get rid of the drug dealing, gun-toting step-cousins who are riding your coat tails. They will only bring you down with their sinking ship. I.E. Dude hiding out in your house when you are on a road trip because he just killed somebody. I highly doubt Shawne knew about the murder until everything went down.

I think Mr. Simon's idea about harvesting a culture of being decent and professional basketball players is righteous and I believe that can be attained with a more hands on development program for many of these young men who are coming into this league at 19-23 years old. We can never understand the temptation that these guys have with the amount of money and fame they are all of a sudden are given. There is so much to take them away from the game and there needs to be a more disciplined approach (by management) in making clear to these young players what their expectations are and helping them attain that in any way possible. There seems to be a disconnect between management and the players on this team. I think it starts with the fact that there are not quality veterans on this team that lead by example.

NuffSaid
05-12-2008, 05:59 PM
PG2,

The very issues you highlight are reasons David Stern imposed an age limit on players coming into the NBA through the draft. Maturing is what he was striving for along with more rounded players. I'm actually one of the few people who agree with the age limit and don't see it as a black or white thing but rather as a way to bring a better product onto the floor. Of course, there's no guarantee that a 2-4 yr college player will be of better stock than a HSG or a player who declares himself eligible after 1 yr of college, but you stand a better chance of getting a more well rounded player after 2-4 yrs college than you do from those who come into the NBA otherwise. As I've said before, there are only so many Kobe Bryant's and LeBron James' out there who would actually be able to keep their head on straight after turning pro.

Anthem
05-12-2008, 06:31 PM
Who's on the Star's editorial board? Anybody know?

grace
05-12-2008, 07:02 PM
Who's on the Star's editorial board?

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/articles/stooges/images/three-stooges.jpg

:kravitz: is their mascot.

Peck
05-12-2008, 11:39 PM
The Star's position: Pacers’ leadership team working hard to turn around troubled franchise.

Herb Simon and Jim Morris want to deliver a message to Pacers fans: They get it.

In a meeting this week with The Star's Editorial Board, Simon, the Pacers' co-owner and new CEO, and Morris, in charge of the franchise's business operations, acknowledged how far out of favor the team has fallen with the community.

How bad is it? In a city and state filled with dedicated and knowledgeable basketball fans, the Pacers recorded the worst attendance in the NBA this season.

Morris, who not long ago was fighting the effects of famine and natural disasters as director of the United Nations' World Food Program, is now battling to restore the tarnished image of a team that he considers an important part of Central Indiana's social and business fabric.

The franchise's troubles began with the infamous Detroit brawl but have deepened in subsequent years as players became embroiled in several off-the-court scandals.

It's not surprising then that Morris calls character a paramount consideration in rebuilding the team's roster, including through this year's draft. He noted that when focus groups have been asked to pick between a player with great skills but questionable behavior and one with lesser talent but sound character, the fans chose character.

Not that winning isn't important in reconnecting with the community. After all, much of the good will the team built up with the city in seasons past grew out of the excitement generated by playoff battles with the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers.

But fans want a team they can be proud of for excellence on and off the court. To reach that goal, Morris promises to increase the team's involvement in the community and to improve the franchise's support services for young players who must learn to cope with wealth, fame and a multitude of readily available temptations.

As the team's co-owner, Simon has a personal and financial stake in turning around the franchise, which a few years ago was considered among the NBA's best. He hopes to see improvement on the court next season, but acknowledges that salary-cap constraints could require a three-year rebuilding process.

Simon also wants fans to understand that another community institution -- the WNBA's Fever -- is entering a period critical to its future. The organization has assembled a championship-caliber roster. Ticket prices are low. Yet attendance must grow if the franchise is to finally break even. Simon's ability to continue writing off the Fever's financial losses is no doubt constrained by the Pacers' problems.

Two teams. Two sets of challenges. And not much time for either to begin packing fans into the Fieldhouse.

.................................................. .................................................. ..

I can not tell you how much I totally disagree with this highlighted part.

The entire reason our franchise got into the shape it is in is because management did not face up to the fact that our house was not in order at least two full years before the brawl.

Putnam
05-13-2008, 08:20 AM
The entire reason our franchise got into the shape it is in is because management did not face up to the fact that our house was not in order at least two full years before the brawl.


I think I know the reasons, Peck, but would you elaborate on this?

Are you saying both sides of the trouble, both the high-salary, low-talent player situation and the cause of the current low support, predate the brawl?

BillS
05-13-2008, 09:06 AM
The entire reason our franchise got into the shape it is in is because management did not face up to the fact that our house was not in order at least two full years before the brawl.

Umm... wow.

I know it is fashionable to dismiss the 61-win season as purely a fluke, a chance combination of luck and our opponents rolling over to lull us into a false sense of self-confidence, but do people really forget that the start of the season the brawl year was one of the best in franchise history?

I say again and will continue to say that keeping the ticking time bomb for a shot at a championship was EXACTLY the kind of risk people had been begging this franchise to take. It's only when it blew up in their face that suddenly we'd have been better off going safe by getting rid of such talented but unstable players.

Yeah, yeah, we can go back and re-hash letting Brad go and other moves or missed moves, but until the brawl it actually looked like it might work.

Kegboy
05-13-2008, 09:42 AM
Umm... wow.

I know it is fashionable to dismiss the 61-win season as purely a fluke, a chance combination of luck and our opponents rolling over to lull us into a false sense of self-confidence, but do people really forget that the start of the season the brawl year was one of the best in franchise history?

I say again and will continue to say that keeping the ticking time bomb for a shot at a championship was EXACTLY the kind of risk people had been begging this franchise to take. It's only when it blew up in their face that suddenly we'd have been better off going safe by getting rid of such talented but unstable players.

Yeah, yeah, we can go back and re-hash letting Brad go and other moves or missed moves, but until the brawl it actually looked like it might work.

I don't know. If we'd known about Ron's "migraine" and JO and Ron slugging it out in the locker room how would we have felt back then.

BillS
05-13-2008, 10:00 AM
I don't know. If we'd known about Ron's "migraine" and JO and Ron slugging it out in the locker room how would we have felt back then.

Probably the same as now, since the only good risk is the risk you didn't take. Having taken a risk means TPTB screwed up, while not taking a risk means TPTB screwed up. The former risk is worse because you can prove it didn't work, while the latter risk was clearly the better choice since not taking it didn't work.

:banghead:

Unclebuck
05-13-2008, 10:01 AM
Umm... wow.

I know it is fashionable to dismiss the 61-win season as purely a fluke, a chance combination of luck and our opponents rolling over to lull us into a false sense of self-confidence, but do people really forget that the start of the season the brawl year was one of the best in franchise history?

I say again and will continue to say that keeping the ticking time bomb for a shot at a championship was EXACTLY the kind of risk people had been begging this franchise to take. It's only when it blew up in their face that suddenly we'd have been better off going safe by getting rid of such talented but unstable players.

Yeah, yeah, we can go back and re-hash letting Brad go and other moves or missed moves, but until the brawl it actually looked like it might work.


Is it too late to nominate this for post of the year. Great post BillS


Peck, I understand what you are saying, and yes the franchise was built on a foundation (Artest and JO) that was not stable. But the Pacers went for it they gambled and for that I will never fault TPTB for doing so. Sure it didn't work out - but they tried to make the very "championship moves" that so many Pacers fans wanted them to make.

Anthem
05-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Umm... wow.

I know it is fashionable to dismiss the 61-win season as purely a fluke, a chance combination of luck and our opponents rolling over to lull us into a false sense of self-confidence, but do people really forget that the start of the season the brawl year was one of the best in franchise history?

I say again and will continue to say that keeping the ticking time bomb for a shot at a championship was EXACTLY the kind of risk people had been begging this franchise to take. It's only when it blew up in their face that suddenly we'd have been better off going safe by getting rid of such talented but unstable players.

Yeah, yeah, we can go back and re-hash letting Brad go and other moves or missed moves, but until the brawl it actually looked like it might work.
I don't mind the position Peck takes. What I mind is taking THAT position at the same time as "TPTB don't want to win a championship" position. Sure looks either/or to me.

NuffSaid
05-13-2008, 10:43 AM
Is it too late to nominate this for post of the year. Great post BillS


Peck, I understand what you are saying, and yes the franchise was built on a foundation (Artest and JO) that was not stable. But the Pacers went for it they gambled and for that I will never fault TPTB for doing so. Sure it didn't work out - but they tried to make the very "championship moves" that so many Pacers fans wanted them to make...

...and now in hindsight they're getting their noses rubbed in it. :rolleyes:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I was one who initially wanted TPTB to work things out w/Ron-Ron even after he spouted off a second time when Walsh gave him an open door to come talk to him about whatever problem he (and RC) were having. But once it came out that he was a big disturbance in the locker room, I'd had enough! It was time for the experiment to end. Little did any of us know, however, that the prolonged wait to be rid of him would add to and extend the agony that originated with the Brawl. Regardless, it was the right move to make on both sides of the coin.

The Pacers needed another tough-minded force on the team because for so long they played like a soft team. Artest's presence did put fear in the minds of nearly every team out there. No doubt about it! But his temperment was so out of control; you never knew what would set him off (ala, David Harrison which is one of the reason I don't think he'll be back next year, but that's another topic all together). Still, the reason Artest was ousted wasn't because of his on/off-court issues. Walsh traded him because he disrespected the franchise by insisting on being traded. And after investing so much in this guy and standing by him throughout all the chaos, there just was no way TPTB could standby him any longer. He had to go.

Naptown_Seth
05-13-2008, 11:04 AM
I don't mind the position Peck takes. What I mind is taking THAT position at the same time as "TPTB don't want to win a championship" position. Sure looks either/or to me.
I agree. This falls right in line with the view that Donnie never made moves either...

Herb for Det
Chuck/Mike for Pooh/Sam
Pooh for Jax
Jax for Rose
Det for McKey
Tony for #5 pick
signed Scott
Rose/Best for Brad/Ron
Dale for JO
Al for Jack
signing Dale
Ron for Peja
Peja/TE for Al
Jack/Al for Mike/Troy/Ike

I mean it's a lot easier to find seasons where a starter wasn't changed. How in the world were the Pacers going to 61 wins with Rose/Best instead?

Also the 61 win team not only had the top record overall, they had the top record VERSUS WEST TEAMS. It's not like they were just in an easy conference. That team was the best team in the regular season without question and was perhaps the #2 team in the postseason.

Going for that with Ron and JO is all about doing whatever it takes to win. Moving Al for Jack was too, an attempt to shore up outside shooting weakness that Detroit took advantage of.

John Green misses that game and all of this is a moot point. For all we know crazy Ron would have kept walking that line he's walked in Sacto, but with the team winning. This would have made him Rodman on a Pacers Bad Boys instead of the time bomb of destruction.

I'm so sick of this being spun way off into "obvious". It wasn't and isn't. It was close, it was walking the edge, and it slipped. Sucks, but you can't have regrets when you at least made the effort.

Perhaps in the aftermath they didn't react quickly enough, TPTB and the fans were both in a bit of aftershock and it took some time to realize that they'd passed the point of no return. If anything you can blame Rick for doing too good a job holding it together, making it seem like it could still be turned around.

Naptown_Seth
05-13-2008, 11:19 AM
I find it interesting that Kravitz had to explain himself on why he wasn't tossing Marvin Harrison under the bus. I guess this is a far cry from RTV6 running an on-line pole on whether Jamaal Tinsley should have been "disciplined" by the team after being nearly murdered in the street.
And a frustrating thing with all this is that the solution will be to campaign to have the Colts thrown under the bus TOO, rather than lightening up on the Pacers a little. How about we support the team, stop buying into this "fans vs players" thing that now envelops the Pacers and start holding the press a bit more accountable.

This is 100% the same as my Al Unser Jr thing that BK then ran with a few years ago, how DUI Al could kick his girlfriend out of the car on the side of 465 and then show up at the track drunk and nothing was made of it. He still would (and does) get a line for autographs.

Somewhere along the line it became cool to buy into the negative spin for all things Pacers and a lot of people right here at PD feel that this is normal and expected. What I'm saying is that if you step back and try to remove some emotion this isn't normal.

The stories in Indy aren't nearly what some of the problems with other teams have been. Other players have been shot at, other players have actually been injured by attacks, and tons of players have been involved in off-court scuffles ala 8 Seconds. It's almost like Indy now has a chip on the shoulder to be a tough town with big stories, and the national feed just falls in line with whatever comes out of here because they don't care any more than they ever have about what goes on in Indy.

If the local reporting hadn't said anything about Rio, Could 9, 8 Seconds you wouldn't have heard one thing nationally. This is clearly the case with Harrison and Philly. Philly has MUCH BIGGER fish to fry right now so his story falls way off their radar, even the police radar.

But if this was in Brizzi's hands and Marv was a Pacer? Dude would be cuing up the Who and slapping on the shades and the press would eat it up.

Putnam
05-13-2008, 11:32 AM
But if this was in Brizzi's hands and Marv was a Pacer? Dude would be cuing up the Who and slapping on the shades and the press would eat it up.


I woke up in a Soho doorway, a policeman knew my name.
He said, "You can go sleep at home tonight if you can get up and walk away."?

Peck
05-13-2008, 02:09 PM
Interesting....

I make a statement that no one actually refutes other than with feelings and wishes and dreams yet it's being put that I'm the hypocritical one here?

Hmmmmm..... How shall I put this?

To my memory, and yes my advancing age does make me forgetfull at times, but I seem to recall that there were three people who daily were on here for a year or more prior to the brawl screaming at the top of thier lungs that this team was going to fall apart.

Chicago Jay, Bball and Me.

Please do not put any form of spin that nobody could have seen or predicted this coming, because we did. Go do any form of history search and you will see that not once in the past 5 years have I ever made the statement that it would be a good idea to keep both O'Neal & Artest.

Maybe it's because I knew about Artest trashing the Min. locker room and then J.O. and him pushing and shoving each other on the plane. Or that the day of the Clippers blow out J.O. and Artest were in the locker room fighting about 3 hours before tip off. Or that J.O. told Mike Brown in front of Pacers staffers that it is either him or me (meaning Ron). I could go on but what is the point.

Let's not forget that a certain reporter was demoted from beat writer to whatever his job became because he was outed in his own paper for covering for the fact that the Pacers had to actually convince Ron Artest to get on the team plane after game 6 vs. Miaimi.

This does not even take into consideration all of the problems with Tinsley or Jackson who if some of you will recall dissapeared on game day vs the Celtics after a team member (Dale Davis) called him an ***. Well did all of you know that the Pacers had to send Chuck Person out to find him and after a 4 hour hug session with Jackson telling him how much the team loved him he finally showed up at the fieldhouse 1 hour before tip off?

Some of you are just disagreeing with me because it's me, that's cool. But noone on here can call me a hypocrit because I have not changed my mind or my story once.

The combination of Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest was a disaster. The Pacers house of cards was built on sand.

We can demonize John Green all we want, we can pretend that if only nothing would have happened that night we would have won a title but since then we have been targeted by the evil David Stern and are being held down by the man.

But that is all an illusion.

We were like the movie Phenomenon. We were given an incredible gift and powers yet at the end of the day what we thought was a great power ended up being a fatal tumor.

But in our case this was a tumor that we knew about and could have done early surgery on.

Unclebuck
05-13-2008, 02:31 PM
Peck, during Isiah's last season - two years before the brawl, I remember several posts I made about how that team was very fragile, and wasn't really stable. But it was also very good, so even with the enormous risks I was willing to "see what happened"

I also remember making a post about a week after we acquired Artest, telling Pacers fans that Artest will be the most polarizing Pacer player ever to put on the Pacers uniform and we all need to get set for a wild and bumpy ride - so I said we all need to just hang on - because it won't be boring.

If you remember I never argued with you, Jay or Bball about the team possibly falling apart nor did I argue with anyone about how crazy Artest was. But I did argue that he was worth it and worth the gamble. I was of course wrong about that in the end as were TPTB, but almost everyone knew the risks.

Disclaimer: clearly I had no idea anytime appraching the brawl was even possible of taking place.

Putnam
05-13-2008, 02:56 PM
I admit that I, for one, didn't know what was going on and didn't anticipate what eventually did happen. I was living on a moutaintop in Asia during those years (yes I am Bruce Wayne), and none of the inside stuff Peck mentions in #34 got through. (I should have subscribed to PD sooner.) One day, all I knew was that the Pacers were coming off a 61-win season and were playing great, and then the next day the Pacers were a global pariah.

Will Galen
05-13-2008, 03:06 PM
I seem to recall that there were three people who daily were on here for a year or more prior to the brawl screaming at the top of thier lungs that this team was going to fall apart.

Chicago Jay, Bball and Me.

Please do not put any form of spin that nobody could have seen or predicted this coming, because we did.


So you predicted it coming from what you knew. That still doesn't mean the Pacer brass saw it coming from what they knew. The difference being they know what normally goes on in NBA locker rooms, you don't.

From what I've read fights in locker rooms aren't anything out of the ordinary, and neither are contentious locker rooms, so for the Pacers brass it could have looked like business as usual.

From my point of view, and no doubt the Pacers brass point of view, it was a hassle, but it wasn't much hurting the team on the floor, and that's mainly what you look at when you are in charge, the end result. Sixty-one wins and a great start to another season was a good result!

We can make all the assumptions we want about what we hear or read, but it's nothing like being there person. And even then if we only see or hear part of what goes on it will sway our opinion to one we wouldn't normally have if we knew everything.

My point is you, Bball, and . . . who the heck is ChicagoJ? You weren't there, you were only going on what you heard and it was far from complete.

Of course you guys can pat yourself on the back because of the way it turned out, but it wasn't the forgone conclusion you think it was.

Since86
05-13-2008, 03:14 PM
ChicagoJ is the poster formally known as Jay@Section204 and so forth.

Will Galen
05-13-2008, 03:21 PM
ChicagoJ is the poster formally known as Jay@Section204 and so forth.

Thank you!

Peck
05-13-2008, 03:35 PM
So you predicted it coming from what you knew. That still doesn't mean the Pacer brass saw it coming from what they knew. The difference being they know what normally goes on in NBA locker rooms, you don't.

From what I've read fights in locker rooms aren't anything out of the ordinary, and neither are contentious locker rooms, so for the Pacers brass it could have looked like business as usual.

From my point of view, and no doubt the Pacers brass point of view, it was a hassle, but it wasn't much hurting the team on the floor, and that's mainly what you look at when you are in charge, the end result. Sixty-one wins and a great start to another season was a good result!

We can make all the assumptions we want about what we hear or read, but it's nothing like being there person. And even then if we only see or hear part of what goes on it will sway our opinion to one we wouldn't normally have if we knew everything.

My point is you, Bball, and . . . who the heck is ChicagoJ? You weren't there, you were only going on what you heard and it was far from complete.

Of course you guys can pat yourself on the back because of the way it turned out, but it wasn't the forgone conclusion you think it was.


This was not a way to pat myself on the back even if it seems that way. I was just simply making a statement that the star posted something I disagreed with. Then there was a slew of posts disagreeing with me, which I have no problem with btw. I then just simply then made further claim that it was not something that people were not aware of.

As U.B. stated and I believe that Walsh agreed with him that they new the potential and that they took a calculated risk. I disagreed with that risk, but as you stated I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

But where I took some contention was the fact that it seemed that some were going to go the route of saying hind sight being 20/20 and with that I will strongly disagree because some of us were saying then.

Ok, I've said enough. This post was not supposed to be about this.

Back to lurker mode. :ninja:

Will Galen
05-13-2008, 03:44 PM
This was not a way to pat myself on the back even if it seems that way.

Of course it seems that way because that's what you were doing!

Nah, I'm kidding. However it doesn't matter the circumstances, you guys were right, and that deserves a pat on the back. Not that I like it that you were right dang it, but you deserve it!

Peck
05-13-2008, 03:47 PM
Will,

Totally off topic here but that photo in your avatar, is that a shot you took down in the keys or is that something off of the net?

Naptown_Seth
05-13-2008, 03:58 PM
Back to lurker mode. :ninja:
Argh. Alright Hillary, enough pandering for the "post more often" vote.

You're out in the sun now, might as well hang out with us for awhile, have a beer, and join pointless firey rants over who we should draft weeks before the lottery is even set.
:buddies:



We can demonize John Green all we want, we can pretend that if only nothing would have happened that night we would have won a title but since then we have been targeted by the evil David Stern and are being held down by the man.
I'm not saying that, not pulling the "Stern was against us" card. I'm STRONGLY suggesting that plenty of disfunctional teams have rumbled onto titles, sometimes due specifically to that aspect. Some guys work with each other almost as a means to show each other up. Some guys just end up taking it out on the other team.

Rodman WAS high maintenance, dude's got rings (plural). The 76-78 Yanks were a swirling mess of borderline implosion. Shaq and Kobe, BFFs.

So stop acting like it was obviously going to fall apart. It did fall apart, but it was never obvious. I mean this team won games after many of the instances you mention. NONE OF THOSE were deal breakers in and of themselves, yet you dismiss Green and the brawl, a clear breakpoint, in favor of this list of incidents that came before.

So what if Jack, Ron and JO couldn't deal after winning the title for the 04-05 season, or that the momentum of that title could only band-aid them together for one more title run before falling apart like the Lakers. It is most certainly not obvious that it wouldn't have gone that way because it has worked that way many times over with other teams.

Do you really think things never got heated in the Bulls locker room? With Jordan and his antognistic ego? Phil never had to sweet talk Kobe into staying with the team or playing nice with Shaq?

Come on Peck, this is big boy sports and while I don't want to fully dismiss the chemistry concerns in play, we all know that they are often not dealbreakers. Heck, some of the biggest flops have come when a bunch of friends get together for a seeming "dream team".

Or weren't Al and JO great pals prior to his rejoining the team?

btowncolt
05-13-2008, 04:01 PM
C'mon, Peck. Just because I haven't posted anything Pacers related in about two years doesn't mean I didn't in the past. I can't believe I'm not on that short list of yours. See if I ever send you a John Kerry T-shirt again.

Naptown_Seth
05-13-2008, 04:08 PM
From what I've read fights in locker rooms aren't anything out of the ordinary, and neither are contentious locker rooms, so for the Pacers brass it could have looked like business as usual.
Thus my comments about Mark not reporting it. If a guy has seen it all before then it's normal life and not worth reporting. This just in, Wednesday is trash day.

I think Indy still has small-man syndrome and is constantly looking to keep up in all aspects, including drama. 8 Seconds would NOT get reported in Chicago or Philly or NY.

I mean the Knicks had a sexual harassment lawsuit AND Marbury implying blackmail and neither was dumped at the time. In fact had that team won 40-50 games both guys would still be there. That's sustained behavior on a daily basis, not a heat of the moment with a drunken criminal.

Will Galen
05-13-2008, 04:35 PM
Will,

Totally off topic here but that photo in your avatar, is that a shot you took down in the keys or is that something off of the net?

It's off the net. As you may know I'm a Sims player. You can design your own outfits for sims, so I designed several Pacer's themed tops plus a lightning outfit. The lightning top in my avatar to the left is my design.


The girls name is Pecky. (grin)

Hicks
05-13-2008, 07:08 PM
The images have to be on the Internet. You seem to be linking directly to the files on your computer.

Will Galen
05-13-2008, 09:26 PM
The images have to be on the Internet. You seem to be linking directly to the files on your computer.

Yeah, I forgot.

Dr. Goldfoot
05-13-2008, 10:04 PM
I'd also like to point out that Zeke coached the All-Star game in his last season prior to Carlisle leading the squad to 61 wins. 34-15 at the All-Star break is pretty damn good ( of course 14-19 afterwards has become the norm as of late).

My point is even with the youth, Thomas as coach and a horrible second half collapse that team nearly won 50 and was on pace to win 60. Then Rick comes in and they win 61 ( which I credit player experience as much as coaching BTW). Here's my jab at Rick guys....then the team fell apart.

Naptown_Seth
05-14-2008, 04:38 PM
What about Ron being kept under control for his only AS and DPOY awards? That's not player experience and Rick isn't the only guy to struggle with him, he's just the only one to keep him focused for a full season.