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Peck
05-07-2008, 09:18 PM
I've been mulling this over in my head for awhile now and I want some feedback from other people.

How much, if at all, did the complaining to the referee's after almost ever call bother you when it came to the Pacers circa 2001 - 2006?

Basically the new league rules in 07 ended some of the complaining and last seasons team didn't do to bad.

But I'm talking about the Thomas through Carlisle years?

Yes, yes we all know Reggie Miller b@tched and moaned more than almost any man alive and ye was properly chastized back in the day by some of us.

Anyway I'll stop talking and just read.

Los Angeles
05-07-2008, 09:31 PM
It bothered me a great deal.

I so desperately wanted to be a JO fan, but this aspect alone made me cool on him. It was the first step in the other direction. And now I lean WAY in the other direction. I can barely stand the sight of the guy's picture.

Will Galen
05-07-2008, 09:38 PM
I've always disliked it! I don't care if a guy shows emotion after a call. However, I've always thought it dumb to complain to a ref.

People being people they are just as likely to call something close the other way just because they don't like the bellyaching.

And I've yet to see one change his call because a player complained.

ajbry
05-07-2008, 09:40 PM
I find it incredibly annoying. Just a waste of time. It ain't like the refs would ever change their mind and it's only detrimental to your team: 1) you get a tech; 2) you don't run back on D (I know, I know); and/or 3) it gets you increasingly frustrated.

That being said however, anything that Rasheed Wallace says to the refs is cool with me.

grace
05-07-2008, 09:49 PM
I've always hated it. I remember getting really mad at Brad for not getting back on defense because he was too busy complaining to the referee.

Hicks
05-07-2008, 10:01 PM
Philosophically I'm against it, but as a spectator I can tolerate it to a degree, but if a player does it a lot, I'd better like them a lot for other reasons or I will be very turned off.

ajbry
05-07-2008, 10:02 PM
Philosophically I'm against it, but as a spectator I can tolerate it to a degree, but if a player does it a lot, I'd better like them a lot for other reasons or I will be very turned off.

What about guys like Tim Duncan?

Arcadian
05-07-2008, 10:07 PM
I wouldn't say I like it, but I care a lot more if the team loses than whines.

Hicks
05-07-2008, 10:08 PM
What about guys like Tim Duncan?

I like him for other reasons. Enough so that I can look the other way (well, mostly) at his whining.

dohman
05-07-2008, 10:14 PM
It didn't bother me at all. But then again I hate most refs lol. I have a bit of a temper when I play myself and mouth at the refs when they screw up. So I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

CableKC
05-07-2008, 10:25 PM
What bothers me is if the arguing with the refs continue while the rest of the team is hustling to the other end to get back on defense.

Obviously....SJax was most known for this.

Since I did not watch that many early Pacer games with Reggie arguing with the Refs....was it the same thing....would he argue with the Ref DURING the play?

or

Did Reggie argue with Refs AFTER the play ended?

idioteque
05-07-2008, 10:28 PM
It doesn't really bother me if the call is really, really awful. I would say only about 15% or so of calls I see on TV are worth complaining. But it seems that someone is pissing and moaning no matter how good or bad the call is. So usually, it does get on my nerves.

GO!!!!!
05-07-2008, 10:42 PM
depends on the call, the mannor and how long,

last monday night in out roster game the ref was a shocker and a couple times the ball clearly went out of the other team and i made a couple of comments... but allways with one eye open towwards where the ball was, i know it wasen't gonna make difference , he wasen't gonna change it and the game was blowing out, but still, coulden't help myself...

complaints like that aren't to bad i feel, it's the guys when they take an iffy iffy shot and miss and go come on that was a foul, there the ones that I'm like arrgghhh sometimes ya get fouled but sometimes it's just an average shot and you shoulden't get rewarded for out of control or average shots...

BlueNGold
05-07-2008, 10:51 PM
To me, this is about JO.

I think a certain amount of interaction is appropriate, but not the JO-like whining we all know and love.

Several years ago, JO was my favorite player. I still have more JO gear than any other Pacer merchandise. I thought the guy would be another Duncan or Garnett. In any event, JO's bobble head is now shoved into a drawer face down and I don't care for what he has represented for years now. Basically, things changed due to two things, one of which was the incessant whining to the officials. The other was him yapping and never, ever backing it up. I'd rather watch a loser with his mouth shut than someone unable to back up his multiple promises.

Yes, the whining is something I don't miss with him off the court. Even now he no longer complains too much which is an improvement.

DisplacedKnick
05-08-2008, 08:12 AM
What bothers me is if the arguing with the refs continue while the rest of the team is hustling to the other end to get back on defense.

Obviously....SJax was most known for this.

Since I did not watch that many early Pacer games with Reggie arguing with the Refs....was it the same thing....would he argue with the Ref DURING the play?

or

Did Reggie argue with Refs AFTER the play ended?

Reggie always argued with the refs but he kept playing. His typical "complaint" when the ball was in play was to throw his arms up in the air (the NFL touchdown signal) while getting back on D. Then he'd pull the ref aside later when the clock stopped.

Very different from what, say, Jalen Rose used to do which was stand in the backcourt and argue while the other team went back on a 3-on-2 fast break.

I don't like all the whining about calls that goes on - it seems like nobody ever just accepts a call today. Even if they don't say anything they go into a facial contortion that looks like they're having a seizure. I've pretty much decided we all have to live with it though.

Unclebuck
05-08-2008, 08:19 AM
I think we first need to differentiate between the Isiah years and the Carlisle years. Because it decreased once Rick took over - it was still pretty bad because a lot of bad habbits had to be broken.

My attitude about it is simple. I don't mind the players complaining when they are correct about a call. When a ref makes a mistake, I have no problem with the players complaining.

What I hate is when players complain about every call even the obvious ones when the ref is correct

owl
05-08-2008, 08:26 AM
It almost makes the game unwatchable. It seems like when one player does it and the
coach does not address it, then it spreads like a virus to the other team members.

Doug
05-08-2008, 09:33 AM
I watched part of the pistons - magic game the other night.

The amount of *****ing and complaining was a huge turn-off.

It's like these guys NEVER commit a foul. Ever.

Tom White
05-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Because it decreased once Rick took over -

I'm not so sure about that. Of course Jackson had been added to the mix, and he alone increased the complaining.

Naptown_Seth
05-08-2008, 11:01 AM
I've been mulling this over in my head for awhile now and I want some feedback from other people.

How much, if at all, did the complaining to the referee's after almost ever call bother you when it came to the Pacers circa 2001 - 2006?

Basically the new league rules in 07 ended some of the complaining and last seasons team didn't do to bad.

But I'm talking about the Thomas through Carlisle years?

Yes, yes we all know Reggie Miller b@tched and moaned more than almost any man alive and ye was properly chastized back in the day by some of us.

Anyway I'll stop talking and just read.
Moderately. It was nowhere near the dealbreaker it was for you, but that doesn't mean I just thought it was no big deal. Sometimes you can see the justification in losing your cool, that's why Reggie, Dale, Tony, etc did.

In fact Rik getting mugged and just taking it was seen as a negative, at some point you have to demand respect.

But as you imply with the question you don't want it to come at the expense of winning the game. And if you can establish a good interaction with the ref you're going to win your case a lot more. Of course like all people some refs are going to react better to intimidation than pleasantries. That's part of being a vet, knowing how to deal with guys.

This is why I would defend Jack. I didn't like him not getting back, but other than that I didn't mind him losing his cool at times because he was also the most likely guy to politely interact with a ref. Depended on the night. I've long ago posted photos of times when it was Jackson stepping in as the reasoned voice as another player flipped out. AJ was one of those flipping out when Jack came in and calmed both he and the ref down.

To me that was the Reggie style, he'd flip out but he could also show the friendly side. I don't think JO, Tins or Ron were very good at that. I don't think they were very good at having an issue and being calm about it. Jack was just 50-50 and like the rest of his game this was erratic. If he could always use the cool approach you'd love him...well, if he got back on D too. ;)


The corollary with this is stuff like flopping which I think the core teams avoided too. So their attitude to me was more like "the NBA is rough, let us play". I like that a lot more than the guys that are just always begging for calls from a soft standpoint.

BTW, the game changing didn't fix JO, he started improving this years ago. It's just taken time for the reputation to die, as all reps are want to do.


Tinsley's "And 1 MFer" habit is really a joke. Get back to me when he drives the lane and DOESN'T shout this. Enough already. Even if it's trash talk, it's overused and weak.