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Kofi
05-02-2008, 09:54 PM
I saw this debate on another board, so I thought I'd bring it here to Pacers Digest.

You're starting a new franchise, you have your choice between the two - whom do you go with?

The tale of the tape...


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5536/vsgg8.gif

pizza guy
05-02-2008, 09:58 PM
Dwight

Paul is ridiculously good, but I think you take big over small cuz "you can't teach big."

It's easier to build around a dominant big-man than around a PG, no matter how good he is.

--pizza

Hoop
05-02-2008, 10:06 PM
I would normally take the big guy, but there's just something about Paul.

AesopRockOn
05-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Considering that Dwight can block shots, rebounding for you on both ends, is so physically gifted that no one can stop him right now (except maybe for hacking), and still has so much to improve on the offensive end, I don't think it's a contest. Plus, I feel like, although Paul has thusfar been very durable and tough, Dwight probably has a lower chance of sustaining major season or career injury. Be interesting to see how each does in the second round against more experienced clubs.

DrBadd01
05-02-2008, 10:10 PM
You can't teach size. . . . Dwight

Swingman
05-02-2008, 10:13 PM
Can't teach All-Star level point guard skills either. As Pacers fans, we're painfully aware of the shortage of high-caliber PGs.

shags
05-02-2008, 10:50 PM
8 of the last 9 NBA champions have featured either Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal. So because of that, I'd take Howard over Paul.

However, I'd take LeBron over both of them.

Gamble1
05-02-2008, 10:52 PM
Big men always out rank pg's. No question both are valueable but one is harder to find than the other.

Arcadian
05-02-2008, 10:53 PM
I'd take Payton over Kemp.

JayRedd
05-02-2008, 10:58 PM
Paul is elite at two ends. No-brainer for me.

King Tuts Tomb
05-02-2008, 10:59 PM
You can't teach desire either and Chris
Paul has more determination than any player in the league besides Kobe and Duncan.

But really, I'd take either if they're offering.

Kofi
05-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Dwight is clearly the leagues next dominant big man, and since it's a known fact that big men win championships, I think it's a no-brainer for Howard.

Anthem
05-02-2008, 11:25 PM
Paul. Easy.

He's got chumps looking like All-Stars. PGs can make PFs better, but the reverse isn't usually true.

jeffg-body
05-02-2008, 11:28 PM
I take the big man first as a rule. Big men with footwork, athleticism, and agility that DH has is just too rare to pass up.

BlueNGold
05-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Paul and Howard are both at the top of the game....but I'd give the edge to Dwight.

Superstar big men win championships. Look at Shaq and Tim Duncan and their jewelry over the last decade. In contrast, how many rings do the great PG's in the league have? Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Baron Davis and Jason Kidd have....hmmm..Zero. That's right.

I suppose Tony Parker is a good PG, but he's no Nash/Paul/Deron W/ or JKidd. Everyone knows TD is why the Spurs win.

Maybe Magic Johnson qualifies as a PG, but at 6'9"...it was different...and a different era...and he had Kareem anyway...another big man.

Perhaps Paul is the exception...but I doubt it. Paul has a number of nice pieces so I suppose he could advance...but history says the PG is not the reason you win it all.

Unless you have a tremendous freak athlete like Lebron, Kobe or MJ....or an extremely well put together TEAM like Detroit...or a dominant big man along the lines of Shaq or TD, you will not win a championship.

Yep, Superman is the piece to pick...

Shade
05-03-2008, 12:14 AM
Both.

If I HAD to choose, I'd take Dwight.

BlueNGold
05-03-2008, 12:22 AM
8 of the last 9 NBA champions have featured either Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal. So because of that, I'd take Howard over Paul.

However, I'd take LeBron over both of them.

Very well said. I'd take Lebron over any current player...but I'd have a tough time taking Lebron over a young Shaq.

grace
05-03-2008, 12:24 AM
I would normally take the big guy, but there's just something about Paul.

What he said.

Kofi
05-03-2008, 12:25 AM
LeBron wasn't included because it's pretty much unanimous that he's the #1 young player - if not player, period - in the league.

Hicks
05-03-2008, 12:49 AM
Paul by a nose. In today's game he's slightly more valuable IMO.

BoomBaby31
05-03-2008, 02:08 AM
Wow!!! So many of you picking Paul. It is a no brainer to build around a big 20-20 guy like Howard especially with the lack of big men in the league.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 02:18 AM
Wow!!! So many of you picking Paul. It is a no brainer to build around a big 20-20 guy like Howard especially with the lack of big men in the league.
Really? NO is doing just fine with their big guys (a lot thanks to Paul giving them easy hoops). I think finding a floor general is a lot harder.

Eindar
05-03-2008, 06:11 AM
Put me on board for CP3. You're talking about a PG that's got the potential to be top 5 all-time.

Also, Howard's numbers are very good, and he's surely a force, but the times I've seen him, they don't run the offense through him, so he doesn't really command double teams, so he doesn't really get wide open looks for his teammates. I think that's what got Duncan and Shaq their rings, not just gaudy numbers.

In summary, Paul makes his teammates better, Howard doesn't. Paul by a nose.

count55
05-03-2008, 06:12 AM
IMO, Point Guard is far and away the most important position in the game. Plus, I don't believe that you can have a post player/inside guy as your main go-to guy at the end of the game. They rely too much somebody else to get them the ball, plus it's easier to collapse the defense and provide help on that inside guy.

I'd probably go Paul and Deron Williams before I'd take Howard...and I acknowledge that Howard is a fantastic player.

Again, for me, it PG above all positions.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 06:30 AM
Yeah...I don't about all this "by a nose" stuff. This is a really easy answer for me: Chris Paul. I doubt that the Magic have more than 40 wins without Hedo Turkoglu this year. I think an argument could be made that he was just as valuable as Dwight Howard for them. As Eindar mentions, the offense rarely runs through Howard. At times, it seems he's the 4th most likely guy to take a shot in crunch time. Is that really the guy you'd start your franchise with when you have Chris Paul as an option?

Also, using a Bill Simmons measuring tool, how much worse would each team if we replaced the player with a decent player at their position? How much worse would the Magic be if that was Tyson Chandler and not Dwight Howard? 5 wins worse? Maybe 10? What if the Hornets had Kirk Hinrich? Would they even have won 30 games this year? I doubt that the Hornets would have won 40 games with a bona-fide all-star like Tony Parker running the point instead of Chris Paul.

Further, Tyson Chandler cost the Hornets an old PJ Brown. Getting a decent PG costs more. Getting a decent pure PG costs an arm, a leg, an ear, and two first round picks....just ask the Mavs.

BlueNGold
05-03-2008, 07:54 AM
With David West and Chandler, NO has the size to advance. This series with the Spurs will be a pretty good measuring stick on this topic. Both have a number of solid vets. I suspect the Spurs are not as hungry, but NO has beat them soundly a couple times this year, so they should be motivated.

It is rare where the PG is the #1 player on a champion, but I suppose it's been done historically with Isiah Thomas. I guess history does repeat itself. Lessee what happens...

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 01:22 PM
Hornets in six.

Anthem
05-03-2008, 02:22 PM
Paul. Easy.

He's got chumps looking like All-Stars. PGs can make PFs better, but the reverse isn't usually true.
I just realized that this is a stupid approach.

You take Dwight Howard, no question. Dwight isn't good enough to single-handedly get you out of the lottery, meaning you'll have another lotto pick the following year. You get CP3, though, and you'll be in the playoff hunt for the next decade.

So if you're building a franchise over the long term, you get Howard, suck for another year, and then get good when you pick up an all-world PG. Picking Paul right off the bat just ruins your draft position.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 03:41 PM
I figured your "stupid approach" was going to include withdrawing the chump label from Tyson, DWest and Peja.

Pacersfan46
05-03-2008, 04:08 PM
So if you're building a franchise over the long term, you get Howard, suck for another year, and then get good when you pick up an all-world PG. Picking Paul right off the bat just ruins your draft position.

Yes, because those grow on tree's and are available EVERY year, right?

Look at the history of the #1 pick. It's rarely a point guard. I believe the last point guard taken #1 was Magic Johnson. I'm sorry, every year there's a good big man in the draft. There is rarely a top flight potential HOF PG.

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-03-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm sorry, every year there's a good big man in the draft. There is rarely a top flight potential HOF PG.-- Steve --

The problem with your post is that Dwight isn't just "a good big man". He's every bit the top-flight potential Hall of Famer Chris Paul is. And History tells you you take the big man if you want championships.

21/14/2 blocks on 60% shooting as a 22 year old. Shaq-esque.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 04:29 PM
History also involved hand-checking though.

21.9 ppg/12.6 apg/2.3 TOpg/2.9 spg/50.7 FG%/41.5 3pt% in the Second Half this year. Unprecedented-esque.

Kofi
05-03-2008, 04:47 PM
History also involved hand-checking though.

21.9 ppg/12.6 apg/2.3 TOpg/2.9 spg/50.7 FG%/41.5 3pt% in the Second Half this year. Unprecedented-esque.

Only unprecedented if you have a weak knowledge of NBA history.

Kevin Johnson was putting up very similar stats in the 90's, sans the 3-point shooting. Not to mention guys like Magic and Oscar who've both put up far better numbers in their careers.

If you want fancy stats to impress your friends with, you take Paul. If you want championships, you take Howard.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 04:53 PM
Dig it up then, Mr Wizard.

EDIT: You tried, I see.

"Sans the 3-point shooting" is the point.

No other PG has ever done the full combination of what he did in the Second Half this year for a full season when you look at scoring, scoring efficiency, shooting with range, dishing assists, and playing defense. He's the type of 5-tool floor general we haven't seen since Oscar.

Magic and Zeke (and KJ) had no range. Clyde and GP couldn't dish that much. Kidd and Stockton couldn't score that much. Ivy wasn't that efficient.

Aside from Oscar (who never put up 12.6 apg) and Tiny (who, and correct me if I'm wrong, was not known for defense), we' haven't seen this "total package without flaws" type of floor general.

Granted, CP3 didn't do it for a full season himself either...but the point is that his ceiling is "unprecedented-esque" and we've actually watched him do it for about 38 straight games now. Meanwhile, we're still waiting for Dwight (who I love and also has a Top 30 Ever ceiling) to develop a dominant offensive game. He's getting there, but he's still no Admiral, Ewing or Hakeem when it comes to post. And I really doubt he'll ever reach such heights of offensive dominance as those three did.

When it's all said and done, Dwight, IMO, will finish somewhere near the Top 10 Centers of All Time, probably above Admiral but well below Moses and Diesel.

Yet Chris Paul, IMO, has the chance to be the #1 PG of All Time. And given the "no hand-check rule" that none of most of these other ever benefitted from, it's certainly possible he'll have better stats than any floor general aside from Oscar.

Pacersfan46
05-03-2008, 05:21 PM
Only unprecedented if you have a weak knowledge of NBA history.

Kevin Johnson was putting up very similar stats in the 90's, sans the 3-point shooting. Not to mention guys like Magic and Oscar who've both put up far better numbers in their careers.

If you want fancy stats to impress your friends with, you take Paul. If you want championships, you take Howard.

Yes, because we know those Hornets suck in that record setting tough West, and the Magic are just absolutely killing in the weak *** East .... right? Actually, it's quite the opposite. Orlando more than likely isn't getting past Detroit, or Boston.

Now you tell me who has a chance at a ring.

You sound silly making it sound so 'matter of fact' like you talked to God himself on the matter. :bs:

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-03-2008, 05:39 PM
http://www.nba.com/history/players/kevjohnson_stats.html

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2752/kjlu1.gif

Paul's numbers are probably slightly better all-around, but unprecedented they are not.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 05:51 PM
3P %.

And I clearly listed his Second Half numbers previously...during which time he was playing at the level I was describing.

I will list them again for your convenience: 21.9 ppg/12.6 apg/2.3 TOpg/2.9 spg/50.7 FG%/41.5 3pt%.

I'm also not sure you understand the meaning of the suffix "esque." No offense.

Pacersfan46
05-03-2008, 06:04 PM
Kevin Johnson was an All-Star 3 times in his career. I have this irking feeling, CP3 will surpass that easily. Those numbers don't account for defense either. Which Paul is very good at.

Not to mention Johnson was surrounded by scorers. Majerle, Chambers, Barkley, Hornacek, Ceballos, Ainge .....

CP3 only has 1 real scorer on his team, and that's Peja. Everyone else, namely West, and Chandler are having the best play of their career since Paul has gotten there, and I find that to be no coincidence. Moral of the story to me, similar numbers don't always equal similar players.

-- Steve --

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Let's not overlook KJ though altogether. He was an absolute beast and entered the League in a manner very similar to Chris Paul. He also would have had many more All Star games than 3 himself if he wasn't derailed by injuries.

He's sort of like that Jim Rice or Albert Belle type where we forget how absolutely dominating they were since their peak was shorter than most.

KJ was like a poor man's Bernard King or a rich man's Brad Daugherty. Or something.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 06:39 PM
I loved KJ and all...but he was also never the best player on a contender like Paul is.

I'm just baffled by this debate. Paul, to me, is on a Kobe-LeBron level. He can win a series on his own. Dwight Howard is GREAT but there is no way he can win a series on his own. Let's see him tear through that Piston frontline before we comment further. I'm pretty sure Shade could have gotten a couple 20-20s against that Toronto frontline.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 06:48 PM
I'm just baffled by this debate.

Don't worry, rexy.

Your signature will soon proclaim your love and admiration for the Church of Chris Paul for the whole world to see. You will soon truly see the light, my son.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 06:51 PM
Don't worry, rexy.

Your signature will soon proclaim your love and admiration for the Church of Chris Paul for the whole world to see. You will soon truly see the light, my son.
Hey, I'm CP3's second biggest fan (behind you apparently), I just have a huge respect for the Spurs. They're getting the benefit of the doubt from me until they lose.

Pacersfan46
05-03-2008, 07:03 PM
Also, as a last note, the numbers he lined up for Kevin Johnson was in years where one, or maybe two teams didn't score over 100 ppg. And 6 - 10 teams scored over 110 ppg. Not happening in todays NBA.

Just figured I'd throw that out there, but I'm sure he knew that. In all of his NBA historian expertise. ;)

-- Steve --

Kstat
05-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Isiah Thomas needs to be mentioned here also.

he had 4 straight 20/10 seasons, including a 21/14 season, and was among the league leaders in steals every time.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 07:13 PM
Isiah Thomas needs to be mentioned here also.

he had 4 straight 20/10 seasons, including a 21/14 season, and was among the league leaders in steals every time.

For whatever reason, Zeke seems to get screwed in some PG debates from what I've noticed. But I think he's definitely top 3 ever (with Magic and Oscar). How people call Stockton better than Zeke is beyond me.

ESPN ranked Zeke third for what it's worth.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

Kstat
05-03-2008, 07:16 PM
I would put him #3 as well behind Oscar and Magic, but you can definitely make a case for him in a class with those guys. Zeke never had a great center like Kareem to help him win games.

I saw Zeke tear up Stockton way too many times to buy into any comparison between the two.

Zeke in his twilight was still good enough to handle Stockton in his prime.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 07:18 PM
What about Timmy Hardaway's four season span from 1991-1995?

pts/asts/stls

22.9/9.7/2.6
23.4/10/2.0
21.5/10.6/1.8
20.1/9.3/1.4

Pretty damn good

Kstat
05-03-2008, 07:20 PM
The numbers are a small cut below, and he did play in an inflated offense with run TMC.

Of course, had he not torn up his knee, he might have left a much bigger stamp. Those numbers would have been special had he stretched them out over 7-8 seasons.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 07:25 PM
The numbers are a small cut below, and he did play in an inflated offense with run TMC.

Of course, had he not torn up his knee, he might have left a much bigger stamp. Those numbers would have been special had he stretched them out over 7-8 seasons.

True, and the fact that he only played in 66 and 62 games the last 2 of those years hurts those stats as well

He's certainly not on a Magic/Oscar/Zeke scale, but he was a hell of a talent when he was young and it's a shame he got hurt.

His first 2 years in Miami he played in 81 games both times and averaged 20.3/8.6 and 18.9/8.3, he definitely rejuvinated himself there.

Anthem
05-03-2008, 07:32 PM
I saw Zeke tear up Stockton way too many times to buy into any comparison between the two.

Zeke in his twilight was still good enough to handle Stockton in his prime.
I've always thought Stockton was special due to his longevity and consistency more than his brilliance during in-game situations.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Isiah Thomas needs to be mentioned here also.

I already did, but it's certainly worth repeating.

He's definitely 3rd All Time.

The only possible reason CP3 could turn out better is the range factor. Zeke didn't have much by comparison.

But when it's all said and done, Paul's extended range may have as much significance in this debate as Kobe's extended range does in the Mamba vs. MJ debate...Meaning, it's kind of a neat feather in the cap, but it in no way is it nearly enough to sway the clear hierarchy of overall ability.

Also...although CP3 plays plus defense already, he will have to get even better to sniff Zeke's level in terms of historic standing, and he'll never be as good as guys like GP or Clyde.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 07:45 PM
I would put him #3 as well behind Oscar and Magic, but you can definitely make a case for him in a class with those guys. Zeke never had a great center like Kareem to help him win games.

I saw Zeke tear up Stockton way too many times to buy into any comparison between the two.

Zeke in his twilight was still good enough to handle Stockton in his prime.


Right.

Give Zeke a top 2 PF of all time and tell me if there's any legitimate debate between him and Stockton. I don't mean to knock Stockton, but he certainly was able to ride a niche out for 15 or so years.

I'd take the Glove in his prime over Stockton in his. But that's just me.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 07:50 PM
I'd take the Glove in his prime over Stockton in his, but that's just me.
Yeah, but I'd take Stockton for 16 years over Glove in 8, I think.

Also, Zeke was easily better than Stockton but he wasn't necessarily playing with scrubs either...Maybe nobody as good as Karl Malone but those were special teams. Probably should have won in 1988 and won in 1989 and 1990 against Jordan in his prime (thanks to the amazing Jordan rules defense). I'd say those Bad Boy teams were much better than anything Utah trotted out in the 90s. I'm sure KStat can add more...

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 07:52 PM
Give Zeke a top 2 PF of all time and tell me if there's any legitimate debate between him and Stockton.

Sir Charles thinks you're nuts.

Kstat
05-03-2008, 08:01 PM
Sir Charles thinks you're nuts.

Malone has Barkley beaten on everything except rebounding and 3-point shooting.

They were both great passers, but Malone was a better scorer and defender.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 08:05 PM
Sir Charles thinks you're nuts.


Certainly through the first 9 seasons, but look at Chucks games played beginning in 1993-94. He was hurt an awful lot. After his 93 MVP season, his games played went 65, 68, 71, 53, 68, 42 (lockout year, and 20 (maybe not fair to count that one, but hey, Mailman was still putting up awesome numbers).

Meanwhile, the most games Karl Malone ever missed in Utah was 2, yes 2 games. In 18 years, the most games he ever missed in a season was 2. That's just crazy. I'm certainly not counting the injury plagued LA year, because at least he was still playing when he was 40. God knows Barkley couldn't have done that.

So since Malone had several more productive seasons than Chuck, despite being the exact same age, I'll give the edge to Malone. Statistically, it's like splitting hairs during their primes.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 08:08 PM
But can you remember a single monumental thing the Mailman ever did during a game? Do you ever recall him taking a game into his hands and saying "F*** this. We're not losing." I certainly don't. I remember Stockton doing it a few times. Even Hornacek. And I remember Barkley doing it a lot. But can't remember Karl doing it.

To me, that's true greatness.

It's the difference between Duncan and KG, and, to me, it's the difference between Mailman and Chuckster.

And the longevity debate is like tryna say Eddie Murray was better than Frank Thomas.

In 10 years, the only thing I'll be discussing Karl Malone is the time he told Kobe he was "hunting for little Mexican girls."

But I will definitely be talking about the way Charles Barkley played basketball.

Kstat
05-03-2008, 08:10 PM
But can you remember a single monumental thing the Mailman ever did during a game? Do you ever recall him taking a game into his hands and saying "**** this. We're not losing." I certainly don't. I remember Stockton doing it a few times. Even Hornacek. And I remember Barkley doing it a lot. But can't remember Karl doing it.


...so the 39 he dropped on Jordan's bulls in chicago to avoid elimination in game 5 doesn't count?

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 08:20 PM
But can you remember a single monumental thing the Mailman ever did during a game? Do you ever recall him taking a game into his hands and saying "**** this. We're not losing." I certainly don't. I remember Stockton doing it a few times. Even Hornacek. And I remember Barkley doing it a lot. But can't remember Karl doing it.

To me, that's greatness.

It's the difference between Duncan and KG, and, to me, it's the difference between Mailman and Chuckster.


Is that why Chuck has those rings? Is that why Chuck has more finals appearances than Mailman?

Oh wait, he has neither.

Chuck is just as guilty as Malone is for his team being eliminated by Houston 2 straight years in 94 and 95.

They both just happened to run into Air Jordan in the years in which their teams in the finals. That's crappy luck, as they'd both probably have rings if they didn't, but of course they each had chances when Jordan wasn't anywhere near the NBA.

I just don't get how you can say Chuck willed his teams to victories but Malone didn't, when Chuck himself has one less finals appearance than Malone in his prime. Malone's playoff statistics certainly say other wise.

Heck, in 04 I remember Malone having a 30 pt/13 rebound playoff game against Houston. He was hurt that entire year as well. If that's not willing a team to victory, then I don't know what is. The guy always played hard.

JayRedd
05-03-2008, 08:20 PM
Okay. That's one kstat. And a great and memorable one. My bad.

Still, my point isn't that he never did it. Obviously, he did. I'm just saying it's not what he's known for and it didn't happen nearly as often as it did with Charles.

By and large, Charles earned his paycheck in the 4th Quarter and stepped up huge not only himself but to carry his team emotionally.

Ultimately, the difference between the two is so small that it's hard to even debate (and given our ages, we're all probably biased by memories as well). But to me, there is a definite difference.

Sollozzo
05-03-2008, 08:22 PM
But to me, there is a definite difference.

The difference being that Mailman played an elite level far longer than Barkley did, despite being the exact same age.

Hoop
05-03-2008, 09:16 PM
Back to the Paul vs Howard debate.

Late in the 4th quarter who would you rather give the ball to and say win this game for us.

The answer is clearly Chris Paul and not Dwight Howard.

Kofi
05-03-2008, 09:17 PM
At their peaks, Barkley was better, but for careers it's clearly Malone.

Kofi
05-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Back to the Paul vs Howard debate.

Late in the 4th quarter who would you rather give the ball to and say win this game for us.

The answer is clearly Chris Paul and not Dwight Howard.

The guy who hits 60% of his shots.

Kstat
05-03-2008, 09:23 PM
The guy who hits 60% of his shots.

Which must be why LA went to shaq so often late in the game....

Hoop
05-03-2008, 09:29 PM
The guy who hits 60% of his shots.But only 59% of his free throws.


Which must be why LA went to shaq so often late in the game....Good Call :laugh:

Arcadian
05-03-2008, 09:50 PM
The main point is Howard is playing Detroit and Paul is not.

While I agree in theory that bigger is better, I don't believe that Paul and Howard are in the same class. Howard is very good. Paul has a chance of being very, very good.

Kofi
05-04-2008, 12:02 AM
Which must be why LA went to shaq so often late in the game....

The Lakers had one of the one most clutch players in league history in Bryant. There's no shame in deferring to Kobe in the clutch.

Howard's a career 60% free throw shooter. If they want to send him to the line, I'll happily take my chances.

Kofi
05-04-2008, 12:13 AM
The main point is Howard is playing Detroit and Paul is not.

While I agree in theory that bigger is better, I don't believe that Paul and Howard are in the same class. Howard is very good. Paul has a chance of being very, very good.

21 ppg on a monstrous 60% from the field
14 rebounds per game (including leading the league)
2 blocks per game

As a 22 year old.

That's not very, very good? Give me a break.

And in the playoffs thus far?

24 points, 18 rebounds, 4 blocks, 64% shooting.

Wow!


Hakeem passed the torch to Shaq, Shaq passed the torch to Tim Duncan, and now Duncan is on the verge of passing the torch to Dwight Howard. Your next legendary NBA big man.

Kstat
05-04-2008, 12:36 AM
The Lakers had one of the one most clutch players in league history in Bryant. There's no shame in deferring to Kobe in the clutch.

Howard's a career 60% free throw shooter. If they want to send him to the line, I'll happily take my chances.

...except Shaq never got the ball in Orlando or Miami, either.

Arcadian
05-04-2008, 12:46 AM
Dwight is good. Not taking anything away from him. I'm not convinced, however, he is going to be THE dominate big man of his time.

Kstat
05-04-2008, 12:52 AM
Dwight is good. Not taking anything away from him. I'm not convinced, however, he is going to be THE only dominate big man of his time.

Fixed :D

Graham Mernatsi
05-04-2008, 12:59 AM
Kstat's wrong. NOW it's fixed.

he is going to be THE dominant big man of his time.
DOMINANT! THE WORD IS DOMINANT!

:arrgh:

AesopRockOn
05-04-2008, 01:24 AM
Fixed :D

You think Kwame's got it in him?

Eindar
05-04-2008, 02:50 AM
So, now that the Hornets just put a 20 point butt-kicking on the best PF of all-time and a modern-era dynasty, Chris Paul is clearly a better player, right?

King Tuts Tomb
05-04-2008, 03:06 AM
Chris Paul was clearly the better player before that, and has been for the last three years.

But man, if they can beat the Spurs decisively like that four times out of seven, Paul will start rising near Isiah levels.

GO!!!!!
05-04-2008, 06:09 PM
Paul or Deron tough to say... I'd favour Paul

Howard or .....umm Brand ? Nowizki, Garnett...

I'd take Howard, Paul is a star no doubt about it, but Howard is a Monster.... plus he's on my keeper league team, if he reduces his turnovers and plays good offence out the double team, he's my Pick..

if he stays healthy and Lewis plays All Star Ball, i can see them beating the Cavs and Celtics for the next ten years

rexnom
05-05-2008, 12:46 AM
Btw, is anyone else SHOCKED that Dwight Howard didn't have a double double, much less a 20-20 now that he is playing against real opponents who won't let him dunk it every possession down?

Naptown_Seth
05-05-2008, 12:53 AM
The ball will ALWAYS touch Paul's hands, but you can deny the feed to Howard. Especially if your weak PG is being guarded by Chris Paul. ;)

Naptown_Seth
05-05-2008, 01:01 AM
Only unprecedented if you have a weak knowledge of NBA history.

Kevin Johnson was putting up very similar stats in the 90's, sans the 3-point shooting. Not to mention guys like Magic and Oscar who've both put up far better numbers in their careers.

If you want fancy stats to impress your friends with, you take Paul. If you want championships, you take Howard.
good lord drama
"fancy stats"

You want a fancy stat? How about 1 win off the #1 seed in the tougher conference? But once again only stat geeks care about the "numbers" like that stupid "win-loss record" based on "total points scored vs opponents in 82 difference measurements". Sounds like another lame bunch of Hollinger BS to me.

How is 20-20 not "fancy stats" just as much? Or the size measurements? Hey, Sam Bowie was also bigger than Paul and you can't teach height.

Orlando vs the West = 14-16 (.467)
NO vs the West = 34-18 (.654)

Orlando vs the East = 38-14 (.731)
NO vs the East = 22-8 (.733)

Swap conferences so ORL gets 52 West games and NO gets 52 East games instead:
Orlando goes: 46-36
NO goes: 58-24

Kofi
05-05-2008, 03:18 AM
good lord drama
"fancy stats"

You want a fancy stat? How about 1 win off the #1 seed in the tougher conference? But once again only stat geeks care about the "numbers" like that stupid "win-loss record" based on "total points scored vs opponents in 82 difference measurements". Sounds like another lame bunch of Hollinger BS to me.

How is 20-20 not "fancy stats" just as much? Or the size measurements? Hey, Sam Bowie was also bigger than Paul and you can't teach height.

Orlando vs the West = 14-16 (.467)
NO vs the West = 34-18 (.654)

Orlando vs the East = 38-14 (.731)
NO vs the East = 22-8 (.733)

Swap conferences so ORL gets 52 West games and NO gets 52 East games instead:
Orlando goes: 46-36
NO goes: 58-24

Just a hunch, but that may have something to do with the fact that New Orleans has a better team than Orlando. :-o

Chris Paul, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Bobby Jackson - the talent levels aren't even close.

Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.

Kstat
05-05-2008, 03:50 AM
Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.

Pay no attention at all to this man....

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=202&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=85793

rexnom
05-05-2008, 04:45 AM
Just a hunch, but that may have something to do with the fact that New Orleans has a better team than Orlando. :-o

Chris Paul, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Bobby Jackson - the talent levels aren't even close.

Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.
You don't really watch the games do you? Pargo is by far more important for the Hornets than Bobby Jackson, considering he plays for the Rockets.

Also, I'd argue that those guys only look as good as they do because of CP3. When (if?) a team finds out how to shut Paul down, then you'll see that the Hornets aren't really as great as you may think.

Unclebuck
05-05-2008, 09:24 AM
Point guard is by far the most important position on the floor so I would take paul every time without hesitation. Oh and I would take Deron Williams over Howard also

ilive4sports
05-05-2008, 09:54 AM
Just a hunch, but that may have something to do with the fact that New Orleans has a better team than Orlando. :-o

Chris Paul, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Bobby Jackson - the talent levels aren't even close.

Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.

Where is a clip of the OSU Football coach when you need it. Thats not true!

The best players win championships, regardless of the position they play. Yes, the best teams have had great big men on them, outside of the Bulls, but really, were they always the best on the team? Lakers had Shaq(yes Shaq was the better player, but couldn't have done it himself) and Kobe and earlier it was Magic and Kareem. Boston did it with Bird as their best player. Bulls did it with MJ.

Tony Parker, Dwayne Wade(not a PG, but handled the ball the most in their win), and Chauncey Billups all have won NBA Finals MVP in the past four years.

Just because Dwight is a big man does not make him more valuable than CP3. Also, arent there more top tier big men than PGs? In top PGs we have CP3, Deron Williams, Nash(although his lack of defense is killing him and why they lost to SAS and i like Nash). You could say Baron Davis, Jason Kidd(who is becoming more overrated with time, mainly cause he is older) and Chauncy Billups.

Big men you have Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Howard, Brand, Amare(on the cusp), Dirk, Yao, Pau(also on the cusp, how much is it because of Kobe?), David West, Chris Bosh, and Carlos Boozer.

Maybe I am overrating some of these big men. Hell you could say Duncan is by himself which i have no problem with, maybe add Garnett and then Howard comes.

Howard having three 20-20 games is great, but CP3 has been dominating for the entire season, has done it against better competition, is still doing it against better competition and is more impressive right now as Howard did not do to well yesterday.

JayRedd
05-05-2008, 11:16 AM
Pay no attention at all to this man....

Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, Luc Longley and Will Vanderbilt would also all like to say "Glad to see someone who finally gets it...[fist pound]."

rexnom
05-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, Luc Longley and Will Vanderbilt would also all like to say "Glad to see someone who finally gets it...[fist pound]."
Also, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone would like to place a phone call from an era when big men dominated (as opposed to now when guards dominate) and say "we were really good and almost won!!! that counts, right?"

Pacersfan46
05-05-2008, 12:42 PM
Just a hunch, but that may have something to do with the fact that New Orleans has a better team than Orlando. :-o

Chris Paul, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Bobby Jackson - the talent levels aren't even close.

Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.

Weeeeell .... about that ..... Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley would like a word with you ....

As others have said, the best players, or team wins championships. Those big men Jordan had were just superstars, right? Wait, how did Jordan win? He didn't have any big men .... that's impossible!

The 'case closed' thing was a nice touch. It eloquently displayed your close minded sillyness. Again, I love how it sounds like the word from God himself has been brought down upon us heathens. What a joke.

-- Steve --

JayRedd
05-05-2008, 12:46 PM
Those Magic and Bird guys I keep hearing about were both centers as well if I recall. Rick Barry and Clyde Frazier too.

rexnom
05-05-2008, 12:52 PM
And again, all these guys played in eras MUCH more favorable to big men. With the pace and no hand-checking, today's game is built for Chris Paul.

JayRedd
05-05-2008, 12:55 PM
And rexnom's signature is built for embarrassment.

rexnom
05-05-2008, 12:58 PM
And rexnom's signature is built for embarrassment.
You just jinxed the living **** out of the Hornets. Thanks to you, Bruce Bowen will break CP3's knee caps tonight.

JayRedd
05-05-2008, 01:01 PM
Horoscopes and magic beans cannot save you, mon frere.*

I'll start my image search now.



















* That means brother in French. I don't know howI know that...I took four years of Spanish.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2008, 04:09 PM
Paul is just too dominanting to pass up.

Ownagedood
05-05-2008, 05:04 PM
Chris Paul. Hands down for me.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 05:43 PM
Weeeeell .... about that ..... Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley would like a word with you ....

As others have said, the best players, or team wins championships. Those big men Jordan had were just superstars, right? Wait, how did Jordan win? He didn't have any big men .... that's impossible!

The 'case closed' thing was a nice touch. It eloquently displayed your close minded sillyness. Again, I love how it sounds like the word from God himself has been brought down upon us heathens. What a joke.

-- Steve --


Does the name Michael Jordan ring a bell? He's only considered the greatest basketball player - arguably the greatest American athlete - of all-time. He sort of dominated the scene in the 90's, with his 6 championships and all.

And none of Barkley, Malone, nor Ewing were ever the most dominant PF/C of their era, that title would go to Hakeem Olajuwon, who has a couple of rings.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 05:57 PM
And again, all these guys played in eras MUCH more favorable to big men. With the pace and no hand-checking, today's game is built for Chris Paul.

And yet the two greatest big men of our era - Shaq and Tim Duncan - have won 8 of the past 9 championships, while the 4 greatest point guards of said era - Kidd, Nash, Payton, Stockton - have netted a combined 1 - Gary Payton, as a backup on Shaq and Wade's 2006 Heat team. :laugh:

Amazing how you people manage to ignore the facts when they don't favor your opinion.

Suaveness
05-05-2008, 06:07 PM
For those of you who don't pick Paul, I ask you to watch his games. It's a thing of beauty.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 06:09 PM
Point guard is by far the most important position on the floor so I would take paul every time without hesitation. Oh and I would take Deron Williams over Howard also

Can you please post your reasoning for why you believe point guard is the most important position?


My reasoning for favoring the dominant big man is they provide arguably the three most important traits in basketball....

A) high percentage scoring
B) rebounding
C) interior defense

It's no coincidence that dominant big men have also dominated the NBA championships through the years. Yes, you'll find the occasional team where the point guard was the best player (Bad Boy Pistons), but even then they had strong front-courts. Even arguably the greatest point guard of all-time had Kareem by his side. Magic won diddly squat in the NBA without Kareem.

Just look over the list of NBA champions through the years, and you'll see the majority were lead by a dominant big man - Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, Moses, Wilt, Russell, Mikan. A great point guard will help, obviously, but the dominant big man is almost always what brings home the bacon.


Those Magic and Bird guys I keep hearing about were both centers as well if I recall. Rick Barry and Clyde Frazier too.

A guy named Kareem (who I've heard is the NBA's all-time leading scorer) would like a word with you. As would a couple of guys named McHale and Parish, who, along with Bird, formed the greatest front-court in NBA history.

Frazier had Willis Reed in 1970 and both Reed and Jerry Lucas in 73. But hey, they're only Hall of Famers, so they're not really important.

As for Rick Barry, I'd consider the 75 Warriors up there with the 2004 Pistons on the fluke championship scale. Barry was a SF anyways, he plays no bearing on this point guard vs big man debate.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 06:10 PM
For those of you who don't pick Paul, I ask you to watch his games. It's a thing of beauty.

For those of you don't pick Howard, I ask that you pay attention to history, and learn from it. It's a thing of beauty.

King Tuts Tomb
05-05-2008, 06:51 PM
Does the name Michael Jordan ring a bell? He's only considered the greatest basketball player - arguably the greatest American athlete - of all-time. He sort of dominated the scene in the 90's, with his 6 championships and all.

And none of Barkley, Malone, nor Ewing were ever the most dominant PF/C of their era, that title would go to Hakeem Olajuwon, who has a couple of rings.

Kofi's the only person I know who can argue against himself at the same time he's making his argument.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2008, 06:57 PM
Kofi's the only person I know who can argue against himself at the same time he's making his argument.

I meant to stay out of this, but....


Just a hunch, but that may have something to do with the fact that New Orleans has a better team than Orlando. :-o



and then, in the same post....




Point guards don't win championships, big men do. Case closed.

:bananadea

Kofi
05-05-2008, 07:00 PM
I meant to stay out of this, but....



and then, in the same post....



:bananadea

Your point being.....?

Kofi
05-05-2008, 07:02 PM
Kofi's the only person I know who can argue against himself at the same time he's making his argument.

Everyone knows Jordan is the exception to the rule.

rexnom
05-05-2008, 07:10 PM
And yet the two greatest big men of our era - Shaq and Tim Duncan - have won 8 of the past 9 championships, while the 4 greatest point guards of said era - Kidd, Nash, Payton, Stockton - have netted a combined 1 - Gary Payton, as a backup on Shaq and Wade's 2006 Heat team. :laugh:

Amazing how you people manage to ignore the facts when they don't favor your opinion.
I'd argue Shaq was a "backup" on Wade's 2006 Heat team...

Hicks
05-05-2008, 07:14 PM
A friendly reminder to everyone to show respect at all times.

idioteque
05-05-2008, 07:16 PM
David West

PPG the year before Paul arrived: 6.2

PPG Paul's rookie year: 17.1


Tyson ChandlerHe was considered more or less a bust before he went to the Hornets, don't forget that.

PPG the year before Paul arrived (in Chicago) 5.3

PPG Paul's rookie year: 9.5 (now 11.8)


Peja StojakovicChronic playoff choker in playoff appearances for SAC.

Best three point % in the playoffs before Paul's arrival: 46.2%

This year: 59.4%

Also has second highest playoff FG% of career in this playoffs so far.


Mo PeteMost of his stats are down, so he is a bit of an exception, but he is shooting the highest 3 point % of his career.


Bonzi WellsIs playing only 20 mpg this season, the least of his career, and his scoring average is 8.8, not much of a drop off if you compare it to his recent stats. Plus Bonzi is a bum and isn't exactly a consummate teammate.


Bobby JacksonPlays for the Rockets, I think??

There is a lot of evidence here that Chris Paul is a great facilitator and makes his teammates a hell of a lot better. I'd take him over Howard any day, but I'd take a big man like Akeem or Ewing even over Paul. They don't make em like they used to with big men.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 08:47 PM
PPG the year before Paul arrived: 6.2

PPG Paul's rookie year: 17.1

Minutes per game the year before Paul arrived: 18.4

Minutes per game Paul's rookie year: 34.4

So a young big man increases his production as he gains experience and doubles his minutes.

This surprises you?

To stress his personal improvement, take a look at his FT% - from 68% to 84%. Do you credit Paul for that as well?



He was considered more or less a bust before he went to the Hornets, don't forget that.

PPG the year before Paul arrived (in Chicago) 5.3

PPG Paul's rookie year: 9.5 (now 11.8)

He's in the same category as West. A young big man that's increased his production with more playing time and more experience. That shouldn't really surprise anyone. And I wouldn't say Chandler was a bust before coming to New Orleans. He was already a great rebounder and a good shot blocker (which has actually plummeted to a career-low 1.1 this year, despite playing a career high in minutes).


Chronic playoff choker in playoff appearances for SAC.

Best three point % in the playoffs before Paul's arrival: 46.2%

This year: 59.4%

Also has second highest playoff FG% of career in this playoffs so far.

Hey, maybe he's finally got the playoff monkey off his back? I'm happy for him (not really). Let's see if he can keep up his 59% 3-point shooting as his attempts continue to rise.

But let's not ignore the fact that he's shot the two lowest fg%'s of his career, sans his rookie season, in his two years with the Hornets.


Most of his stats are down, so he is a bit of an exception, but he is shooting the highest 3 point % of his career.

Actually, it's not. He shot .1 better in 05-06. :p

He's also shooting the third lowest FG% of his 8 year career, btw.


Is playing only 20 mpg this season, the least of his career, and his scoring average is 8.8, not much of a drop off if you compare it to his recent stats. Plus Bonzi is a bum and isn't exactly a consummate teammate.

Interesting that you bring up minutes per game with Bonzi yet failed to do so with Chandler and West.


There is a lot of evidence here that Chris Paul is a great facilitator and makes his teammates a hell of a lot better. I'd take him over Howard any day, but I'd take a big man like Akeem or Ewing even over Paul. They don't make em like they used to with big men.

You could argue that Dwight also makes his teammates better, for different reasons. Let's not forget the leagues Most Improved Player plays for the Magic, Hedo Turkoglu. And unlike the cases of West or Chandler, we're not talking about a young guy or a guy who had a big increase in minutes, but a guy in his late 20's who's been an average starter his entire career, who's suddenly morphed into an All-Star caliber small forward.

Pacersfan46
05-05-2008, 09:18 PM
Lets really look at Turkoglu since you bring it up, this is, his most minutes played per game in his career. The only serious difference in his stats from 2 years ago are as follows ....

- His ppg is up by 4-5 ppg, but so are his shots per game by 4, and 3 point shots by 1.5 per game. FT attempts are up by 1 per game. Not a shocking turn of events

- His assists per game went from 3 per, to 5 per. However his turnovers nearly doubled. 130 turnovers, to 246

The only thing that it looks like happened, was the coach put the ball in his hands much more often than had been done in the past. His shooting percentages are all about equal. The only stat that he's bettered that doesn't seem to be just an obvious benefit to him being handed the ball more often, are his rebounds. Yet he did play career high in minutes.

So it looks like mostly it was a change in coaching philosophy. Which, by the way .... they do have a new coach this year. I'm really not seeing how any of this looks attributed to Dwight.

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-05-2008, 10:07 PM
Lets really look at Turkoglu since you bring it up, this is, his most minutes played per game in his career. The only serious difference in his stats from 2 years ago are as follows ....

- His ppg is up by 4-5 ppg, but so are his shots per game by 4, and 3 point shots by 1.5 per game. FT attempts are up by 1 per game. Not a shocking turn of events

- His assists per game went from 3 per, to 5 per. However his turnovers nearly doubled. 130 turnovers, to 246

The only thing that it looks like happened, was the coach put the ball in his hands much more often than had been done in the past. His shooting percentages are all about equal. The only stat that he's bettered that doesn't seem to be just an obvious benefit to him being handed the ball more often, are his rebounds. Yet he did play career high in minutes.

So it looks like mostly it was a change in coaching philosophy. Which, by the way .... they do have a new coach this year. I'm really not seeing how any of this looks attributed to Dwight.

-- Steve --

Career highs in points, rebounds, assists, free throw attempts, and FG%. The FG% is the important part, it tells us his scoring improvement has not just been the product of increased shot attempts. He's also averaged his third highest 3% (while hitting a career high 166) and third highest ft%.

His minutes were also a career high, but not a large enough increase to account for his huge improvement in scoring, rebounding, and assists.

He was very deserved of the M.I.P. award.

Pacersfan46
05-05-2008, 10:14 PM
Career highs in points, rebounds, assists, free throw attempts, and FG%. The FG% is the important part, it tells us his scoring improvement has not just been the product of increased shot attempts. He's also averaged his third highest 3% (while hitting a career high 166) and third highest ft%.

His minutes were also a career high, but not a large enough increase to account for his huge improvement in scoring, rebounding, and assists.

He was very deserved of the M.I.P. award.

You denounce the importance of his minutes per game, which was 3 minutes over his career high, but tout the greatness of his career high in FG% which was .002% higher than his previous high?

Wow.

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-05-2008, 11:00 PM
You denounce the importance of his minutes per game, which was 3 minutes over his career high, but tout the greatness of his career high in FG% which was .002% higher than his previous high?

Wow.

-- Steve --

I didn't denounce his increase in minutes per game, I denounced your attempt to use it to explain his across-the-board increase in production.

It's not just that the FG% was the highest of his career, but that it also came in the season he averaged a career high in points.

Here are his 07-08 numbers, compared to what his career numbers would work out to in the same amount of playing time...

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3876/hedoua7.gif

Positives: Good increase in his scoring, not just points, but well above his career averages in all three shooting categories. A big increase in assists, and a very slight increase in rebounds. His fouls are down.

Negatives: Slight drop in steals and blocks, big increase in turnovers.

Overall, he's clearly improved as a player, and it can't be all credited to an increase in minutes.

Kstat
05-05-2008, 11:05 PM
Kofi guaranteed Orlando would makes the finals, and now he's trying to make a case they don't have a good team. Figures...

He doesn't actually believe half of what he says. he's just trying to start an argument.

Pacersfan46
05-05-2008, 11:14 PM
Wow, you compared this year to his career. Are you joking me? Compare this year to TWO seasons ago. He's not that much improved.

You're using his CAREER when he had 2 or 3 season where he barely scored over 5 ppg and played 15 minutes or so. That's a quarter of his career where he's done nothing but drag his career averages down. Do you really think this illogical comparison would go unnoticed? :rolleyes:

I never said it was 'all' because of an increase in minutes. There was also a coaching change which put the ball in his hands more than it has been before. Selective reading. You're detaching yourself further from the debate at hand. Howard has had very little to do with his career year. It's coaching philosophy, and a couple more minutes per.

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-05-2008, 11:42 PM
Wow, you compared this year to his career. Are you joking me? Compare this year to TWO seasons ago. He's not that much improved.

You're using his CAREER when he had 2 or 3 season where he barely scored over 5 ppg and played 15 minutes or so. That's a quarter of his career where he's done nothing but drag his career averages down. Do you really think this illogical comparison would go unnoticed? :rolleyes:

I never said it was 'all' because of an increase in minutes. There was also a coaching change which put the ball in his hands more than it has been before. Selective reading. You're detaching yourself further from the debate at hand. Howard has had very little to do with his career year. It's coaching philosophy, and a couple more minutes per.

-- Steve --

Two years ago vs this year...

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/105/hedofw4.gif

I'm not sure your point, since Hedo was already playing alongside Dwight Howard, which was what this discussion was about in the first place.

Pacersfan46
05-05-2008, 11:54 PM
Wow. Kstat is right. You just keep avoiding the point. You don't make sense, and you don't seem to believe what you even say. You go and post stats that didn't even coincide with what I'd asked you to look at. And you can't even debate the idea that Dwight Howard had nothing to do with his improvement. Which was the original point. This is silly.

Welcome to being the first, and only person on my ignore list. I'm not wasting my time with you again.

-- Steve --

Kofi
05-05-2008, 11:59 PM
Wow. Kstat is right. You just keep avoiding the point. You don't make sense, and you don't seem to believe what you even say. You go and post stats that didn't even coincide with what I'd asked you to look at. And you can't even debate the idea that Dwight Howard had nothing to do with his improvement. Which was the original point. This is silly.

Welcome to being the first, and only person on my ignore list. I'm not wasting my time with you again.

-- Steve --

No need to be a troll.

I misread you the first time and corrected it. The next time you want stats to prove your point, maybe you should get them yourself.

Hicks
05-06-2008, 12:08 AM
No need to be a troll.

I misread you the first time and corrected it. The next time you want stats to prove your point, maybe you should get them yourself.

You, of all people, should not be throwing that word around.

Pacersfan46
05-06-2008, 12:16 AM
You, of all people, should not be throwing that word around.

Well you didn't do me any favors by quoting it! :laugh:

I was glad being unable to see it, but turns out it was something I could have ignored even if I could see it. Either way it'll save me future grief. This ignore thing is a pretty cool feature. I didn't expect it to really make the person disappear like that. I expected to at least be able to see their name showing you that they had posted or something, but it's just gone. Like they never did it. Good stuff.

-- Steve --

idioteque
05-06-2008, 12:17 AM
Minutes per game the year before Paul arrived: 18.4

Minutes per game Paul's rookie year: 34.4

So a young big man increases his production as he gains experience and doubles his minutes.

This surprises you?

To stress his personal improvement, take a look at his FT% - from 68% to 84%. Do you credit Paul for that as well?

He doubled his minutes and tripled his points, give or take .1 or so, so yeah that is a surprising jump for me. His minutes did get higher, for sure, but his PPG average rose disproportionately high to his MPG


He's in the same category as West. A young big man that's increased his production with more playing time and more experience. That shouldn't really surprise anyone. And I wouldn't say Chandler was a bust before coming to New Orleans. He was already a great rebounder and a good shot blocker (which has actually plummeted to a career-low 1.1 this year, despite playing a career high in minutes).

The reason I don't agree with this is West only really had two ho-hum years in the league before he caught on, and Chandler had five. And they both posted their best offensive numbers when Paul came around. Yes, Chandler came straight out of HS and West I believe did not (correct me if I'm wrong), but if you're going to go to the NBA, you should be able to compete, IMHO.


Hey, maybe he's finally got the playoff monkey off his back? I'm happy for him (not really). Let's see if he can keep up his 59% 3-point shooting as his attempts continue to rise.

I hate Peja, he's Swiss cheese. But he was 5/7 from three tonight.


Interesting that you bring up minutes per game with Bonzi yet failed to do so with Chandler and West.

West I have explained now. With Chandler the rise has been roughly proportionate, but from watching the Hornets tonight Paul really does minimize his offensive liability.

Robertmto
05-06-2008, 12:24 AM
Why do people even argue with this guy? He's never right, but he will never stop.

Pacersfan46
05-06-2008, 12:27 AM
Why do people even argue with this guy? He's never right, but he will never stop.

Pretty much, that's why I did what I did.

As a side note, I think it's funny if you've been watching the voting. The more he's talked, the more lopsided the voting has gotten in favor of Paul. :laugh:

-- Steve --

Robertmto
05-06-2008, 12:31 AM
Pretty much, that's why I did what I did.

As a side note, I think it's funny if you've been watching the voting. The more he's talked, the more lopsided the voting has gotten in favor of Paul. :laugh:

-- Steve --

Does he support Obama too? If so Hillary's campaign manager might want to make a call.

JayRedd
05-06-2008, 12:34 AM
I see you lurking, rexnom. Show yourself.

Kofi
05-06-2008, 12:37 AM
Howard and Paul continue to dominate -

Howard with 22 points, 18 boards, and 2 blocks on a ridiculous 73% shooting against an allegedly great defender in Rasheed Wallace.

Paul with 30 points and 12 dimes against Tony Parker.

I'd say Dwight's game was slightly more dominant. Of course Howard lost, but it's not his fault that Jameer Nelson is an atrocious defender.

grace
05-06-2008, 12:38 AM
I was glad being unable to see it, but turns out it was something I could have ignored even if I could see it. Either way it'll save me future grief. This ignore thing is a pretty cool feature. I didn't expect it to really make the person disappear like that. I expected to at least be able to see their name showing you that they had posted or something, but it's just gone. Like they never did it. Good stuff.

-- Steve --

I've been saying forever that it's a wonderful thing. In an older software version you could see when someone posted, but in some update along the line it disappeared. Actually it's better this way. If you know the person posted you're tempted to click on it to see what was said. More times than not it's not a good idea.

Kstat
05-06-2008, 12:45 AM
Howard with 22 points, 18 boards, and 2 blocks on a ridiculous 73% shooting against an allegedly great defender in Rasheed Wallace.


Good to know you didn't even bother to watch the game. Rasheed was on Howard for maybe %20 of the game.

Kofi
05-06-2008, 12:47 AM
Good to know you didn't even bother to watch the game. Rasheed was on Howard for maybe %20 of the game.

Is Sheed not the Pistons "ace" low-post defender? Why would you not have him on Dwight Howard the entire game?

Kstat
05-06-2008, 12:52 AM
Is Sheed not the Pistons "ace" low-post defender? Why would you not have him on Dwight Howard the entire game?

Because Sheed is too useful on offense to risk early foul trouble? Tim Duncan is a great defender and I don't see the Spurs in a hurry to put him on David West either.

Maxiell guards Howard for the majority of the time. McDyess, Ratliff and Wallace rotate on him the rest of the game.

Kofi
05-06-2008, 12:54 AM
That would explain the 73% shooting. :lol:

Kstat
05-06-2008, 12:57 AM
That would explain the 73% shooting. :lol:

...He's averaging a whopping 17 a game in this series plus 3 turnovers a game, with a 6'5" guy guarding him with no help at all. The best center in the NBA, mind you.

I'd say that's pretty :lol: worthy indeed.

rexnom
05-06-2008, 01:16 AM
Yeah, I'm glad Howard's doing so well...because the Magic are still down 2-0...

GO!!!!!
05-06-2008, 01:59 AM
arrrghhhh a man grows weary of the constant piston discussions/arguments

wow.... maybe i neeed a break from here....

Hicks
05-06-2008, 02:08 AM
arrrghhhh a man grows weary of the constant piston discussions/arguments

wow.... maybe i neeed a break from here....

Don't bother. Enough is a enough; Kofi's out.

Robertmto
05-06-2008, 02:31 AM
Hip Hip...Hooray

Naptown_Seth
05-06-2008, 10:42 AM
The ball will ALWAYS touch Paul's hands, but you can deny the feed to Howard. Especially if your weak PG is being guarded by Chris Paul. ;)


I'd say Dwight's game was slightly more dominant. Of course Howard lost, but it's not his fault that Jameer Nelson is an atrocious defender.
Nap for the win!

And I wasn't even part of the mob that led to Kofi's unfortunate turn. Guess K is going to regain the Argumentative title back from me, especially if Kofi doesn't return (who clearly had gained the inside track himself).

idioteque
05-06-2008, 11:54 AM
Don't bother. Enough is a enough; Kofi's out.

Is there any way to ensure this guy doesn't come back with like a 5th screen name? Banning him only seems to spawn him in another form.

Hicks
05-06-2008, 12:00 PM
Is there any way to ensure this guy doesn't come back with like a 5th screen name? Banning him only seems to spawn him in another form.

Not really; it's a cycle. He comes back, has to play nice to fit in, then inevitably reverts to his true nature, which reveals him.

Major Cold
05-06-2008, 12:10 PM
You can't ban his ISP? Well I guess he can create an account at the library.

Anthem
05-06-2008, 01:45 PM
Not really; it's a cycle. He comes back, has to play nice to fit in, then inevitably reverts to his true nature, which reveals him.
Ah, I've been only lightly browsing and must have missed something.

Who was he?

grace
05-06-2008, 02:38 PM
Don't bother. Enough is a enough; Kofi's out.

Wait, does that mean I can't vote for him and Kstat for best couple?

Hicks
05-06-2008, 04:17 PM
Now that you mention it, no. Banned members aren't eligible.

Anthem, it was never confirmed that he was Y2J and *insert all other aliases here*, but the signs were strongly suggesting so. What got him was his current behavior along with being on a short leash under that suspicion. Basically he wore too thin.

grace
05-06-2008, 05:01 PM
Now that you mention it, no. Banned members aren't eligible.

Well crap. Sucks for Kstat.

rexnom
05-06-2008, 06:13 PM
Well crap. Sucks for Kstat.
I thought Kstat and Kofi were a lock this year.

Robertmto
05-07-2008, 01:55 AM
TWSS?

Naptown_Seth
05-08-2008, 12:07 PM
I thought Kstat and Kofi were a lock this year.

TWSS?
Spray cold water on them, that ususally does the trick.



Most offensive :dance:

Most offensive :dance:

Most offensive :dance:

Can I pull it off without being banned? Do people even realize I'm offensive? How do I offend people when I'm on too many iggy's? You've got questions, we've got answers. *




* this is the kind of thing that got me booted from the JRF, and I admit it's pretty poor quality

andreialta
05-09-2008, 01:49 AM
all i know is.. Chris Paul is simply Unstopapaul!

BlueNGold
05-11-2008, 10:15 PM
Well, lil' Paul has certainly been better than I'd expected....and the Hornets may even win this series.

However, with Duncan (a dominant big man of course) coming off his illness, he is dominating with 20 pts, 14 boards and 4 blocks after 3 quarters....and with him getting Chandler in trouble with 5 fouls...it's about time to call it 2-2.

Duncan > Paul

Robertmto
05-11-2008, 10:38 PM
Duncan > Paul

fooly wayne