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Shade
05-01-2008, 08:41 PM
I'm currently in a dispute with my advanced video instructor. I feel that I'm justified in my claim, but feel free to let me know if y'all think I'm overreacting.

Okay, here we go...

I need a 69.5% to pass the class. I'm currently sitting at a 68%. For the first two assignments of the semester, we were to watch some documentary videos and write a paper about them. I got a 90% on each of the papers.

At the beginning of the semester, we were forced to select 2-3 other classmates as group members, with which we would do four assignments and the course project; a 10-30 minute documentary.

We got a 94%, 84%, and 82% on the first three assignments. For the fourth, we received a 0% because none of us turned in our self-critique for the assignment, regardless of the fact that we completed and presented the project in class. I, personally, was sick on the day of presentation, and simply forgot to turn mine in. I don't know why my other group members didn't turn their's in.

About three weeks before the conclusion of the semester, one of our group members' parents were in a motorcycle accident. His parents were the main focus of our documentary to that point. After a week, he found out that they would both eventually be fine, but at that point, we decided that we would need to scramble together and create a new project from scratch, as the one we had been working on for three months was pretty much unsalvageable. The group member continued to communicate as if he would stay on and help with the final project, but decided to bail out and take an "incomplete" a week before the project was due.

The two of us that remained scrambled together a project and received a 70%. The quality of the project was at least on par with the projects that received 84% and 82%, respectfully.

But here's my main beef. 20% of our grade is "participation." It was based 50% on the instructor's evaluation and 50% on peer reviews. I was pretty participatory for the first few classes, but even then I kept losing points. The last few classes I didn't have a lot to add to the discussion, and lost almost all of my participation points. I lost a total of 8% of my grade due to this. I am strongly against peer reviews. IMO, other students are not qualified to give me grades. They're STUDENTS, not instructors.

I also missed two classes, and lost 2% of my grade for each missed class, for a total of 4% lost. Forget the fact that I was home sick, and notified him beforehand that I would be unable to make it to class. Apparently, I need documented proof (i.e. a doctor's note) to keep from losing those points. I had the flu. I can't afford to go to a doctor and have him tell me I have the flu (which I already know) and charge me 100 bucks. When did this become high school?

So, it now looks like I'm going to fail a class in which I turned in every assignment and the vast bulk of it was of "A" or "B" quality. Does that seem reasonable to you?

My scholarship is on the line here, and I'm about to see who I have to talk to in the school administration about this.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 08:52 PM
Man, a lot of times they don't care unless you are in class and doing everything. I have been taking all my classes online so I don't have an attendance problem.

I see where you are coming from. Just this evening I had to take a test, which the score wasn't counted as points twards my grade, it was a test to see if the instructors are teaching the overall material of my program of study well enough.

I've known about this exam all semester, but we needed a password from our program chair to take this test. My program chair is as easy to get a hold of as a dead person.

So, I went ahead last week and sent the instructor an e-mail saying I have yet to take the test and really need to do it otherwise take and incomplete.

My instructor gave me a deadline of May 2 (tomorrow) to get this test completed. I just now finally got a response out of my program chair tonight by beating down her door.

She told me that she had to schedule my test in our testing center and couldn't do it until Monday.

I got an e-mail from my instructor after I left her a voice mail. He e-mail said this:



Antony,

I’ve been informing the students in the your class since Jan. to schedule this exam. It was available starting Feb.18 and the original deadline was March 14th.

I’ve given you ample time to make-up this exam. I gave you another extended deadline last week until May 2 and that is final before 9:00 a.m.
If you cannot complete the exam as I have indicated, you can still pass the course but will not earn the points for this exam.

You can still take the exam but all he needs to do is login to this CIS/CIT279-1AA Blackboard web site the CIS TOA exam is located in the Class Sessions folder.
BUT YOU MUST GET THE PASSWORD FOR LOU!


First off, my instructor totally misunderstood me when I told her that I have been on my program chair all semester to get this scheduled.

So I called my program chair and she told me that she had no idea what the password was and that this test isn't supposed to be online, but in the testing center.

She then 2 minutes later sent me an e-mail with a password for this test.

This test took me only 10 minutes and I got higher than the class average on it.

I had another class that required this same exam, which I didn't know it was the same thing until I got halfway through the questions tonight.

So instructors can and will be very pushy, and hard headed.

Hicks
05-01-2008, 08:53 PM
IMO:

If you forgot to complete and turn in your self-critique, then that part is on you.

HOWEVER, I've also been a victim of "class participation" points at BSU, and it's bull****. If I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said, I'm not gonna raise my hand and be redundant. But I've been burned there before. It's stupid.

I've also taken hits before for missing classes due to illness, and that's stupid as well. If I can't make it, I can't make; let my work decide my grade.

I have no idea if you can fight this or not, but I wish you well. Most of this (the vast majority) appears not to be your fault.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:00 PM
well the main question here is where do you sit on the bell curve of grade distribution in your class? And other question is which school is it that you attend?

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:00 PM
IMO:

If you forgot to complete and turn in your self-critique, then that part is on you.

HOWEVER, I've also been a victim of "class participation" points at BSU, and it's bull****. If I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said, I'm not gonna raise my hand and be redundant. But I've been burned there before. It's stupid.

I've also taken hits before for missing classes due to illness, and that's stupid as well. If I can't make it, I can't make; let my work decide my grade.

I have no idea if you can fight this or not, but I wish you well. Most of this (the vast majority) appears not to be your fault.

Oh yeah, I know the self-critique thing is on me. I still feel that a 0 is harsh, but ultimately, it was my fault for forgetting.

The peer reviews and absence points being lost is my main issue here. It cost me 12% of my grade. That's the difference between a D+ and a B-.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:01 PM
I was in an English Composition class a few semesters ago and we had to do peer evaluations.

I told the instructor first and foremost that I am not qualified to critique and judge the other students' work.

Peer critique is the dumbest thing in the entire world. In your case, participation should only be based on if you are there. If you do not have an opinion, or a student covered what you were going to say, and you cannot expand on that thought, the instructor should leave it at that.

Hicks
05-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Oh yeah, I know the self-critique thing is on me. I still feel that a 0 is harsh, but ultimately, it was my fault for forgetting.

The peer reviews and absence points being lost is my main issue here. It cost me 12% of my grade. That's the difference between a D+ and a B-.

I also forgot to say that I think if you got a 0% on a PROJECT over that self-critique, that's stupid too. Knocking your grade down on it? Sure. But a 0%? That's absurd. That's not evaluating, that's being a control freak. Sure, it could be spun as teaching a life lesson about completing the job, but that's still uncalled for.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:06 PM
I was in an English Composition class a few semesters ago and we had to do peer evaluations.

I told the instructor first and foremost that I am not qualified to critique and judge the other students' work.

Peer critique is the dumbest thing in the entire world. In your case, participation should only be based on if you are there. If you do not have an opinion, or a student covered what you were going to say, and you cannot expand on that thought, the instructor should leave it at that.

My thoughts exactly, and I told him exactly that.

Earlier in the semester, when he was asking for feedback, I told him that I didn't like peer reviews and felt that I was not qualified to be giving other people grades.

The irony in this is, if we had had peer reviews for our final project, I'm certain the class would have given us a higher grade than he did.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:07 PM
I'd complain to your academic dean. If you feel that it is unfair, they will at least listen.

It has worked for me.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:09 PM
I'd complain to your academic dean. If you feel that it is unfair, they will at least listen.

It has worked for me.

Oh, trust me. I will be taking this up with anyone who will listen if he fails me. I may even threaten legal action as a last resort.

I still need to wait to receive the official grade, though. Maybe he'll have a change of heart and be reasonable. He seemed like a reasonable person in class.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:12 PM
where are you on the bell curve?

if you are at the end of it - far left, then I would say things look grim. But my guess is that if the teacher has been harsh on you , the same will go for others in the class as well. And just like you, others have hardships that have happened as well. So if you consider the curve, I would guess that you'll end up doing ok.

Especially if this is at a big school where there is more credibility and people to look over the shoulder of your instructor and second guess him or her. If they are failing lots of people, that won't end up happening bc of other factors and people that end up getting involved.

Another factor to consider is where this grade would fit into your body of work at the place you attend. If this is a clear outlying grade, it makes your argument stronger.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:13 PM
I would also try and talk with him outside of class.

Tell him during those discussions you had nothing to add.

Use this quote...I made it up, but it is true.

"Part of an active discussion is active listening."

Its not like you didn't want to participate, you just were taking in everything that everyone else was saying.

Not all instructors work on a curve. (unfortunately)

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:13 PM
well the main question here is where do you sit on the bell curve of grade distribution in your class? And other question is which school is it that you attend?

I go to IUPUI. And I have no idea about the curve.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:14 PM
also - i'm willing to talk to the guy on your behalf if you want.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:15 PM
how old is the instructor - and what is their rank - prof, assoc prof, asst prof, lecturer??? AI?

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:17 PM
where are you on the bell curve?

if you are at the end of it - far left, then I would say things look grim. But my guess is that if the teacher has been harsh on you , the same will go for others in the class as well. And just like you, others have hardships that have happened as well. So if you consider the curve, I would guess that you'll end up doing ok.

Especially if this is at a big school where there is more credibility and people to look over the shoulder of your instructor and second guess him or her. If they are failing lots of people, that won't end up happening bc of other factors and people that end up getting involved.

Another factor to consider is where this grade would fit into your body of work at the place you attend. If this is a clear outlying grade, it makes your argument stronger.

With the exception of my computer programming course, I have been getting straight "A"s and "B"s for several semesters now.

As far as the computer programming course goes, if I fail that, it's mostly on me. I did my best but I simply couldn't figure out MySQL well enough to turn in a good final project. There's a reason I'm not disputing this course as opposed to my advanced video course.

I definitely did enough quality work to get a passing grade. I'm being hung up on technicalities that could go toward costing me thousands of dollars and hindering my ability to graduate.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Indiana University and IUPUI do work on curves, especially left handed curves.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:19 PM
how old is the instructor - and what is their rank - prof, assoc prof, asst prof, lecturer??? AI?

He's an instructor (doctor, technically), 45 years old.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:20 PM
Indiana University and IUPUI do work on curves, especially left handed curves.

I honestly have no clue how that works.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:20 PM
hoffy, the Program chairs create the curriculum, and tell the associate professors that they can curve grades or not.

I work at a college and I am also an instructor here.

Just because a college allows curves doesn't mean all programs/classes allow it.

I'm not trying to talk down to you. Sorry if I sound harsh.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:21 PM
So here is my opinion - you won't fail. From the information I have at least from you. Especially at a major institution like at IUPUI. Do you know HOW freaking big of a deal it is to fail someone? Its HUGE. How many people in this particular class, by the way, shade?

Its a graduate course or undergrad course?

So this is the thing - you need to have some idea of where you sit in comparison to the rest of the class. Your friends would be as good of an estimate as any. IF you had a group of 4, and the other three have similar grades, do you think they are going to fail all 4 of you???

Heck no!

So how many people in this class?

You won't fail.

I promise you that.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:22 PM
So apparently your fate rests on hoffy's shoulders.

I would get nervous right....







now.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:23 PM
So shade, is this guy a professor then, or is he just an instructor?

There is a big difference.

Also are you in graduate school or undergraduate? And are you with Indiana University or Purdue?

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:25 PM
Since returning to school in fall of 2004, these are my grades (not including this semester):

2 A+
3 A
5 A-
7 B+
8 B
1 B-
3 C
2 C-

The 2 C-'s and 2 of the C's were from 3-4 years ago. The other C was from my computer programming class last semester (I obviously have a hard time with that stuff).

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:27 PM
Shade, I would just talk to the instructor, if he is a program chair or unwilling, go to the academic dean.

These questions that are being thrown at you really have no bearing of the situation at hand.

Just talk to someone other than us.

I really think that you will feel much better hearing rationalizations from them than us.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:28 PM
so answer my questions in #23

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:29 PM
So here is my opinion - you won't fail. From the information I have at least from you. Especially at a major institution like at IUPUI. Do you know HOW freaking big of a deal it is to fail someone? Its HUGE. How many people in this particular class, by the way, shade?

Its a graduate course or undergrad course?

So this is the thing - you need to have some idea of where you sit in comparison to the rest of the class. Your friends would be as good of an estimate as any. IF you had a group of 4, and the other three have similar grades, do you think they are going to fail all 4 of you???

Heck no!

So how many people in this class?

You won't fail.

I promise you that.

There were 12 people in the class IIRC, counting the two that dropped out.

It's an undergrad course. I don't think there were any grads in the class.

My other group member is sitting at a D+ as well. He got a higher grade on his first paper than I did, but lower participation scores. He also missed two classes. Our other scores are identical.

I hope you're right. Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut until the official final grades hit, but when he replied with our final project grade by saying "you should have taken the incomplete" (that he offered us the last week of class) it led me to believe that he intends to fail us.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:31 PM
So shade, is this guy a professor then, or is he just an instructor?

There is a big difference.

Also are you in graduate school or undergraduate? And are you with Indiana University or Purdue?

I'm an undergrad with IU.

Here's the guy's syllabus:

http://www.iupui.edu/~j21099/courses/A451S08.html (http://www.iupui.edu/%7Ej21099/courses/A451S08.html)

He refers to himself as an "instructor," so I assume that's what he is.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:34 PM
so basically i calculated your gpa to be 3.11 or so correct?

OK here is the thing - the Indiana policy as I know it from having a year there as an asst prof is that if you give more than 5% of your class a failing grade, there is an investigation - students are questioned and its a big deal kind of thing.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:34 PM
Hmm...

I think he will throw at you the fact that you knew the critique and grading standards that are provided within.

Just talk to the dude. I'm sure you guys can come to a mutual agreement, but do it before grades are turned in.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:36 PM
Ok so you sit at D+. And remind me - at IU that doesn't count as a passing grade or that will just lose you your individual scholarship or what?

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:37 PM
He just replied to me. He is giving me 3% of my attendance grade back for the two classes I missed, since that was my average attendance score. So, that would give me a 71%, and a passing grade.

He is also allowing us to redo the assignment we got a 0% on a resubmit it, so that could boost my grade a bit more.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:40 PM
The other thing, when I've contemplated giving bad grades, is I myself will look into the student's abilities - and look at his/her grades in other courses; certainly if he's a good student, that tends to make me more generous or lenient. So basically there will be a curve.

Teachers are required to give you a scale at the start of the semester, it is one of the things that they are "graded on". So this teacher has given you the standard scale and he will fit things accordingly. You have to trust in the process.

duke dynamite
05-01-2008, 09:41 PM
Alright. Thats good news.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:42 PM
Congrats man. There you go. No sweat, no more discussion.

its a big deal to give D's and F's man. Its not no chicken scratch to write someone a grade like that. So I think that you are relieved now and I'm happy for you.

Shade
05-01-2008, 09:43 PM
so basically i calculated your gpa to be 3.11 or so correct?

OK here is the thing - the Indiana policy as I know it from having a year there as an asst prof is that if you give more than 5% of your class a failing grade, there is an investigation - students are questioned and its a big deal kind of thing.

My overall GPA sits at 2.97 right now, I believe. I attended back in 99-00, but had to drop out due to family issues and lost my scholarship. I regained it after my I raised it up above a 2.0 and my probation passed, but I think failing a couple of classes could seriously hinder my chances of retaining it. Not to mention that I would have to take the classes over again.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:43 PM
so go have a beer and celebrate and wipe the sweat off your brow.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:47 PM
My overall GPA sits at 2.97 right now, I believe. I attended back in 99-00, but had to drop out due to family issues and lost my scholarship. I regained it after my I raised it up above a 2.0 and my probation passed, but I think failing a couple of classes could seriously hinder my chances of retaining it. Not to mention that I would have to take the classes over again.

So a 2.97 isn't so bad. Sure, study hard - but again, I think that with that kind of gpa your professors aren't going to EVER fail you. Again, failing is a big time deal at Indiana University. There is lots of documenting that goes on. Its sometimes more trouble for the professor than its worth. So often professors try to avoid it, unless they are really dealing with a clown. And if they ARE dealing with a clown, its usually well known amongst the department. So no sweat. I would never fail someone with a 2.97, not even on my worst day. It makes me look bad to fail someone who is so apt a student. Other colleagues would criticize me for being so hard on someone like you.

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 09:50 PM
http://informatics.iupui.edu/people/ehuang


The guy is an associate professor. Thats fairly big time... He's tenured and all. Wow. He's not just an instructor, he's an associate professor. Wow.


well anyways shade, i hope that that was helpful. Good luck man.

Shade
05-01-2008, 10:09 PM
so go have a beer and celebrate and wipe the sweat off your brow.

Oh, I'm still sweatin' my CSCI class. Stupid MySQL. :dead:

Shade
05-01-2008, 10:10 PM
So a 2.97 isn't so bad. Sure, study hard - but again, I think that with that kind of gpa your professors aren't going to EVER fail you. Again, failing is a big time deal at Indiana University. There is lots of documenting that goes on. Its sometimes more trouble for the professor than its worth. So often professors try to avoid it, unless they are really dealing with a clown. And if they ARE dealing with a clown, its usually well known amongst the department. So no sweat. I would never fail someone with a 2.97, not even on my worst day. It makes me look bad to fail someone who is so apt a student. Other colleagues would criticize me for being so hard on someone like you.

I'm glad to hear that. Maybe I have an outside chance of passing my CSCI course now. :pray:

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 10:13 PM
Well there too, I think you have to look at the situation. Where are you on the curve? Who is the teacher? Etc, etc. But I would be shocked in general. All these professors within departments - they all know each other and they talk amongst one another and just like students make fun of crazy professors, they talk about stupid students just the same.

Shade
05-01-2008, 10:16 PM
Well there too, I think you have to look at the situation. Where are you on the curve? Who is the teacher? Etc, etc. But I would be shocked in general. All these professors within departments - they all know each other and they talk amongst one another and just like students make fun of crazy professors, they talk about stupid students just the same.

I don't know why, but that just made me laugh. Reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Groundskeeper Willie is making fun of Milhouse in the teacher's lounge. :laugh:

Kaufman
05-01-2008, 10:17 PM
come to TCT. count. its fun.

Stryder
05-01-2008, 11:41 PM
I'm really surprised that you have an undergrad. course that requires attendance or you fail. Wow.

SoupIsGood
05-02-2008, 12:52 AM
Kauf, where do you teach?

Hicks
05-02-2008, 10:19 AM
I'm really surprised that you have an undergrad. course that requires attendance or you fail. Wow.

That describes, if not all, then the vast majority of my undergrad. courses at BSU. Yay Ball State.....

Gyron
05-02-2008, 12:10 PM
Almost all of my undergrad courses at USI required attendance. I even had one professor that required that we stay awake in class. The professor was a pretentious ***. He didn't think his name "Eric Smith" was pretentious enough, so he had his name legally changed to Eric Von Furhman. He always wore the courdaroy sports coats with the leather patches on the sleeves.

God everyone hated that guy.

Shade
05-02-2008, 12:35 PM
Almost all of my undergrad courses at USI required attendance. I even had one professor that required that we stay awake in class. The professor was a pretentious ***. He didn't think his name "Eric Smith" was pretentious enough, so he had his name leagally changed to Eric Von Furhman. He always wore the courdaroy sports coats with the leather patches on the sleeves.

Good everyone hated that guy.

That's priceless. :laugh:

idioteque
05-02-2008, 12:48 PM
Of my five undergrad classes this spring, there were two of them that I went to four times: the first class (i had the hunch the professor was useless after the first class), the second class (to confirm this), the midterm, and the final. And those two classes will probably be my best grades this semester.

Requiring attendance in college is ridiculous. If a professor is engaging, I'll be there every time (as I was with two other classes, had perfect attendance, in the third class I did as well, but it was a language class so you really do have to go every time). If the professor is bad, I won't waste my time. Requiring attendance in undergrad is very high school-esque.

Hicks, maybe those "Ball State High School" chants I heard at a Purdue-BSU football game awhile back when I went to Indiana to visit one of my friends there were well founded! JK of course :laugh: ;)

Shade
05-02-2008, 12:56 PM
When I first attended IUPUI in 99 and 2000, before I had to drop out for a few years, attendance was not mandatory in any of my classes. IUPUI has slowly been transitioning into a high school mentality since their promotion to Division I. That's why I'm ready to get the **** outta there. I hated high school, and I'm too old and too intolerant to go through it again.

One more semester, baby...

idioteque
05-02-2008, 12:59 PM
I can only imagine your pain Shade, good luck. I am 22 now and I just finished my last semester of college (except for the finals, which I am currently procrastinating on right now). During my last year, seeing all those little-kid looking freshman around, even I thought "I am getting too old for this ****." I can only imagine that at 29.

ajbry
05-02-2008, 02:49 PM
I feel the same way and I'm only 19 and a sophomore.

Attendance requirements are absurd. Attendance and participation should obviously be encouraged but some professors take it too far in terms of penalties. If you're grasping the subject matter your attendance should be irrelevant.

SoupIsGood
05-02-2008, 03:12 PM
College is indeed going the high school route, but some of that is on the students, too. Too many of them have the business mentality ("My tuition is paying your salary so give me what I want"), and way too many students are deeply apathetic.

I wish less parents would "force" their children into college, because I think many end up going without really having a clue what they want and see it as just another thing to "get through."

Edit: I'm in favor of reasonable attendance requirements. You should be punished if you skip class for weeks on end. But a few absences shouldn't matter if otherwise you are engaged in class.

idioteque
05-03-2008, 08:38 PM
If a professor sucks (there are a lot of bad ones, but a lot of really excellent ones as well) then there is no way I am going to attend class regularly. I have too many obligations to other things (other school stuff, work, PD....) to waste much of my time sitting through a pointless class for an hour and a half.

If they want attendence to improve, the administrations can serve some humble pie to those know it all professors who have no public speaking or people skills whatosever and make sure they are effective public speakers before tenuring them.

I had two professors this semester who were Oxford and UC-Berkely educated, but couldn't lecture worth a crap.

Shade
05-06-2008, 11:44 AM
After all of that, I ended up with a B-. :laugh:

It did appear that he would have failed us if I hadn't spoken up, though. We both had a D+ listed as our course grades before the make-up assignment.

LoneGranger33
05-06-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm graduating from college in less than two weeks with a 3.8 GPA and feel no smarter or better prepared to deal with the world than the day I got here. AND I've only missed four classes in four years.

idioteque
05-06-2008, 12:00 PM
I'm graduating from college in less than two weeks with a 3.8 GPA and feel no smarter or better prepared to deal with the world than the day I got here.

Really? I feel like I am better researcher, writer, and memorizer than I was before I got here, but yeah, I don't feel like I learned a bunch of substantiative knowledge. It was more of just learning how to learn.

LoneGranger33
05-06-2008, 04:10 PM
Maybe it's because I was a history major? I dunno...

Los Angeles
05-07-2008, 07:40 PM
If it's a media or art class, attendance is mandatory because a large part of the learning involves participation and critique.

If I were teaching drawing and a kid showed up every now and then and just handed me a bunch of drawings I would fail him on the spot, laugh in his face and tell him to practice the phrase "would you like fries with that". (OK, I really wouldn't but it would be fun.)

An artist is only as good as his critical mind. A critical mind is developed through discussion participation, wether it be one-on-one with the instructor, organized group discussion or casual conversation with other students during work periods.

At the time, I thought I was learning skills and that those skills could be learned independently. I did not understand that the skill/factual knowledge part was only a small slice of my education. Since then, all of the skills I learned have become obsolete. Worthless.

Turns out the valuable stuff was the critical thinking, and you need to be in class to develop that.