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View Full Version : NBA Games "controlled" if not fixed...see 2nd half of Philly/Detroit today



waterjater
04-27-2008, 09:58 PM
I've had this theory for the last 8-9 years, but I could really only apply it to the Pacers and several other teams, but after watching the second half of the Pistons vs. Sixers game today (Sunday Apr 27)....I'm convinced it is more than theory.

The NBA controls games vias its officials. No team ever has too big a lead and no team faces too far a deficit. The league calls games to keep them close. The team with the lead can't draw a foul and the team behind can hack and grab all they want.

In the Playoffs, they take it one step further by controlling the series. They did not want Detroit to lose and it was very obvious!

Watch the 2nd half of the Pistons game. The Pistons guards were beyond aggressive with the Sixers bumping, grabbing (Holding the Jersey), over the back...constant contact. They created numerous turnovers without being held accountable for the fouls! This erased a 10 pt deficit instantly and kept them in the lead despite the Sixers making a run. The Iquodala foul (BS charge call) on the break when Hamilton got in the way...perfect example of the officials using a call that could go either way and giving it in favor of the Pistons...the team that needed to win tonight to keep the series going. These are the same officials (NBA officials of any kind) that allowed the Lakers to erase a 20 pt deficit against the Kings way back when. Its the same **** that has been going on forever and why the NBA just down right sucks when it comes to true and fair competition.

It was beyond obvious in this game! Any wonder why Donaghy had the ability to tell gamblers how the games would go and whether the point spread would work?? Its because he was a part of the "farce" that is the NBA. It is theatre, not competition. No way Donaghy was smart enough to know all this tendancy BS....he knew how the NBA officiates games and used that info to feed gamblers and it made it easy for him to make the wrong calls all the time to influence the outcome. This is, of course, all just my theory....but it sure makes sense when you break it down.

My theory started back during a Knicks vs. Pacers series. Close game on a satellite broadcast at a bar with personal tvs. No commercials back then. Bill Walton was announcing and the mic's caught Hugh Evans (i think it was Hugh...could've been someone else) saying to his two other refs and I'll paraphrase....we've got the game right where we want it, if they keep missing shots, there is nothing we can do about it!...... Pacers were ahead and the Knicks were gaining ground....the Knicks continued to brick city and the Pacers won and I'll bet that wasn't the expected/desired outcome. Right after the mics caught this, I heard Walton go whoa?! and then the sound cut to the satellite feed.

Now there are a lot of great plays in the NBA, especially late in games and is why the 4th quarter is typically when people should start watching.

One mans opinion......others will likely see it another way, but thats the beauty in life.

Water

Kstat
04-27-2008, 10:05 PM
I'm terrible sorry we disappointed you by winning the game. It was indeed the refs which caused our shots to go in and them to miss every shot outside of 10 feet. Those threes that sheed hit weren't the result of him just being a good shooter, it was tiny magnets placed on the ball that our good friends (you know, the same refs that nearly ejected sheed in the first half) had a tiny red button on their belts that magically made all of sheed's shot go in.

We had more fouls called than Philly, and Philly had more FTs. But yeah, the game was totally fixed.

Now I know what spurs fans feel like. Whenever they win, it's because the game was fixed.

You know, because the NBA is constantly twisting their collective beards trying to find ways to keep the spurs and Pistons in the playoffs. Big market teams like us get all the breaks.


They created numerous turnovers without being held accountable for the fouls! This erased a 10 pt deficit instantly and kept them in the lead despite the Sixers making a run.

The Sixers outscored us 11-4 in fast break points. Other than that though, you're right. We held and hacked and grabbed and scored a ton of points off of all those undeserved turnovers...

BTW, all that super-aggressive overplaying the sixers do on every single pass we make? Yeah, those are all clean. It's only when a piston gets physical that it's an obvious foul.

D-BONE
04-27-2008, 10:10 PM
Hmm. Well, I can't say that this has never crossed my mind. What I am comfortable saying is that NBA officiating, love the NBA as I do and tolerate the refs as I do, is frankly a joke.

Charge calls are ridiculous, certain players and to an extent certain teams get special treatment, make up calls are rampant, officiating is frequently inconsistent, and the refs take too much whining. Yes it is an extremely difficult job. However, it's still painful to watch and frequently borders on unfair.

All that said, I will continue to follow the league with the same vigor as ever. I've become hardened to it. Forced to accept it for what it is. Thanks for the chance to vent though.

AesopRockOn
04-27-2008, 10:14 PM
The refs in these playoffs have put too much effort into making sure the games don't "get out of control" or "get too chippy." That addition to the already pussified NBA is something I've noticed the past few weeks. The flopping is old news by now.

SycamoreKen
04-27-2008, 11:01 PM
That people complain the league wants the Spurs or Pistons to win is a joke. Neither team is a "glamore" team. If Philly had not been ahead in the series this one probably would have been on NBA tv.

waterjater
04-27-2008, 11:12 PM
Kstat: I'm not surprised you missed the total point of the story because you bleed Piston Blue and Red. This wasn't about the Pistons, Pacers, Celtics, 76'ers or any team. HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PISTONS!! Anyway....I don't disagree with anything you said...just had nothing to do with the point I was making.

The point is about how the NBA refs games and likes to see close games. The same thing happens to the Pistons. When they get a big lead in a game, it isn't safe because they won't be able to get a call in their favor as the other team makes a run.

And in the Playoffs, it goes a step further. Keep series close, get at least 5 games per series. I don't think the NBA wants the Pistons to win, I think they want the series to go longer and appear competitive. This gets fans to watch. I'd just rather see the best team win and if it is a blow out sweep, then so be it.

I don't like watching refs ignore obvious calls to let another team back in the game. IT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING that sports are all about!!

This is my beef against the NBA. They control games and series....I don't believe (other than Donaghy at this point) that they deliberately try to get one team to win over the other. Otherwise, the Pacers NEVER make an NBA finals!.

Water

Eindar
04-27-2008, 11:18 PM
I'm usually one of the tin foil hat guys, but I'm not sure I see it this time. Philly is the bigger market, and plays an exciting style. The only thing Detroit has going for it is that most casual fans know the players by now. I think the only conspiracy argument that could stick here is that the league wants it to go 7 games because it's two big market teams.

Gamble1
04-27-2008, 11:24 PM
I totally agree that the Refs call games to keep them close. ITs also retarded to have certain standards during the regular season only to call games different in the playoffs.

However, the thing that irritates me the most is that the NBA refs are manipulated into not calling every foul based on the magnitude.

kidthecat
04-27-2008, 11:33 PM
Some of you are missing the point. It's about keeping the games--disregarding the market status--close. Doesn't this reinforce what Dick Bavetta said a few years ago?

waterjater
04-28-2008, 12:06 AM
Some of you are missing the point. It's about keeping the games--disregarding the market status--close. Doesn't this reinforce what Dick Bavetta said a few years ago?

Thanks! You got it :)

If Dick mentioned something to this effect, it wouldn't surprise me. He was one of the best at keeping games close. Do you have a quote of what he said?

Kstat
04-28-2008, 12:26 AM
That's funny, I didn't see the refs "keeping it close" in games 2 or 3....

Fool
04-28-2008, 12:30 AM
Why didn't they keep all the blowouts close?

[Kstat beat me to it. Those weren't the only two games that were blow outs so far in the playoffs.]

How many NBA games would be blowouts if not for the refs, all of them?

Kstat
04-28-2008, 12:32 AM
I guess the refs forgot to follow orders in the Mavs/Hornets game tonight...that wasn't close at all.

Young
04-28-2008, 01:16 AM
It has crossed my mind that maybe the NBA has a hand in who wins. Not only games but the lottery.

Really though I don't think they do. I think that refs have a stigma. Veteran players or star players typicaly get the benefit of the doubt on calls.

If the NBA did fix any games I highly doubt they are really pulling for the Pistons. They would want the Cavs or Celtics before they spend their time fixing a Pistons game or series.

Unclebuck
04-28-2008, 07:57 AM
Oh brother

Slick Pinkham
04-28-2008, 08:25 AM
The world is really flat and aliens are in control.

Fluorine in the water keeps us all from realizing this.

That, plus the mind control waves from the black helicopters, activating the microchips that alien microbots implanted in all of us during our sleep.

yup.

;)

McKeyFan
04-28-2008, 09:29 AM
Water,

I think you may be confusing NBA dictates with human nature.

Probably, all referees lean toward the underdog when the other team takes a commanding lead. It may be that the NBA doesn't complain about this because of course they want to see close games, but I don't think there are any edicts. It's just human nature to help the underdog a little.

Putnam
04-28-2008, 09:42 AM
I'll stick my toe into this pool of quicksand. Let's just remember that there are several things that we might say or believe:


1. The Sixers/Pistons game, in particular, was manipulated by the refs.

2. NBA games are sometimes deliberately controlled by refs (without reference to one particular recent game) on intructions from David Stern.

3. NBA games are sometimes affected by renegade refs with personal agendas against certain players, etc.

4. NBA officiating is erratic, both from one official to another and from one night to another, and even from situation to situation. The players are forced to guess what will be allowed from moment to moment and to live by the principle, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

5. The outcomes of games are sometimes or often affected by mistakes the refs make. But these are simply mistakes, rather than intentional manipulation.



My point is just this: All five of these possibilities would look pretty similar in practice. KStat gives a pretty convincing rebuttal to the OP respecting the Sixers/Pistons game in particular. But on any given night when we see a bad call, we can't know whether it was caused by the ref innocently missing the foul, or by the ref hating the player, or Stern twisting his little joystick.

Jonathan
04-28-2008, 11:24 AM
You have every right to feel the NBA is fixed after the ref (Donaghay) and the betting scandel. I just feel Philly would be the team the league would favor for the following reasons Philly is young, althetic, and in a larger market w/ a more rich basketball history.

Slick Pinkham
04-28-2008, 12:06 PM
The outcome of NBA games can absolutely positively be affected by human beings making judgement calls.

Officials can make mistakes. To assert that they are more than simple errors in judgement without any evidence is totally irresponsible and lame-brained, in my opinion.

CableKC
04-28-2008, 12:22 PM
Although I think that the NBA FO want to have the better teams make it to the Finals ( purely for the Revenue and interest generated ), I don't think that there was any influence from the Refs/FO to sway the outcome of the game.

I watched the game and this is what I saw:

A young team at home comes out of the 1st half with a healthy lead against the Pistons with Rasheed picking up a technical. The Pistons then come out of the locker-room in the 2nd half ( no doubt ignoring what Flip was saying ) and proceed to lockdown the other team on the defensive end and forcing them to make mistakes and turnovers. During this time, the Pistons continue to execute their offense while converting every shot and opportunity that they get. This eventually leads to a huge lead that the younger ( and more inexperienced team ) cannot overcome and the Pistons win the game.

Does this scenario sound familiar to you? This just wasn't what happened against the Sixers yesterday night.....to me, it's what the Pistons have been doing all season long. They turn up the defense and simply execute their offense.

There are reasons why the Pistons are one of the most dominant Eastern Conference teams for the last couple of seasons.....it's not because of bad officiating or cuz the NBA FO wants them to make it out of the East....it's because they are a very good team that few teams in the East can beat.

Now, if you will excuse me....I have to cut off my tongue for saying that the Pistons are a good team.

SycamoreKen
04-28-2008, 12:22 PM
I have a ref related question: I have not seen many other games besides Spurs due to not having time, but are they calling lane violations as much in the otheres as well? they have called more of them in these 4 games than i have seen all season. I didn't notice them as much in the Wash. game yesterday.

Kstat
04-28-2008, 01:26 PM
When in doubt...denial is the best way to go.

We weren't outplayed, it was all a conspiracy.

Zero accountability FTW!

Naptown_Seth
04-28-2008, 03:06 PM
The refs are human, plays unfold with momentum and crowd noise and unexpected plays that look like something they aren't.

Honestly I've sat 2nd row right next to fans ripping and hooting about bad calls that I was making AGAINST the Pacers before the whistle even blew. I trust the refs way more than the fans.

I do think the playoffs AND the first 2 rounds of the NCAA favor underdogs because the refs let it get more physical. If you have learned to use your skills within the rules and avoid contact you are at a disadvantage (or you lose some of your advantage) when those rules are loosened up a bit.

It is frustrating to see, but if I was coaching a team I'd let them know to expect it and we'd be gearing up for that kind of play specifically.

Unclebuck
04-28-2008, 03:20 PM
I think the officiating overall has been excellent in these playoffs.

NuffSaid
04-28-2008, 10:33 PM
I think there is some truth to waterjater's commentary. How many times have we all seen where in the first half calls go more one team's way and then in the second half the other team suddens starts getting calls to go their way. Is it because the refs finally started paying attention? Was it because the the other team suddenly became more aggressive? Did they suddenly start putting the ball more in the hands of their "super star"?

You could argue that the more aggressive team usually gets more foul calls, but I've seen where a team - whether marque or not, but usually "not" - is trying their hardest and was just as aggressive as their opponent and yet the refs choked on their whistle one way but make the call the other way sometimes on similar plays that didn't get called for the other team on an earlier play. That's why most coaches will reiterate to their players not to expect the refs to bail them out.

Now, the refs can't do much about a team that gets hot and just can't miss. But if you've got two teams who are really going at each other and it's very physical, you can bet the refs will try to at least keep the game under control. But yes, sometimes I wonder how "equal" the refs try to call games. There IS partiality in every game, every one of them! For example, I'm sure the refs are trying to find a way to "give" the Celtics the win in Game 4 of the Celtics/Hawks series right now. I've seen a ton of calls that didn't get called on both sides, some missed others "ignored". There is a difference. But the Hawks aren't giving the refs the chance to "take the game away from them". They're putting the Celtics through their paces giving them all they can handle.

Eindar
04-29-2008, 01:15 AM
After that Game 6 between Sacramento and Los Angeles, you'll never convince me that the referees don't have an agenda, but in this situation, I don't think that was the case :)

waterjater
04-30-2008, 04:22 AM
After that Game 6 between Sacramento and Los Angeles, you'll never convince me that the referees don't have an agenda, but in this situation, I don't think that was the case :)

That game 6 turnaround is still unbelievable....changed the face of a franchise (really hurt Sacremento).

As for the blowouts, if they keep making shots, nothing anyone can do. Which is why shot making is so important (especially despite contact when you have the lead since calls will come less often).

I was pretty surprised a couple series ended 4-1 this year, but in the Hornets case, they played awesome and Dallas couldn't hit the ocean from a boat. Good for the NBA....games should be decided by the players.

To all that chimed in for discussion, Thanks! Appreciate your thoughts, viewpoints and opinions.

Water

rexnom
04-30-2008, 04:31 AM
I think the officiating overall has been excellent in these playoffs.
That is 100% true. They follow all the core rules of playoff officiating, including the lesser known "If Ginobili, Parker or Duncan fall then they must have been fouled because God knows they wouldn't fall on their own accord" rule...:rolleyes:

Kemo
04-30-2008, 06:04 AM
after sitting down and watching the MOST RIDICULOUS calls I have ever seen


in the suns / spurs game...

there is no doubt about it in my mind.. these refs have an agenda...
I say in playoff games there ABSOLUTELY should be instant replay on contested calls..

Unclebuck
04-30-2008, 08:38 AM
after sitting down and watching the MOST RIDICULOUS calls I have ever seen


in the suns / spurs game...

there is no doubt about it in my mind.. these refs have an agenda...


The agenda nbeing to end the series as soon as possible so they can get a few days off?????

Hicks
04-30-2008, 10:57 AM
That is 100% true. They follow all the core rules of playoff officiating, including the lesser known "If Ginobili, Parker or Duncan fall then they must have been fouled because God knows they wouldn't fall on their own accord" rule...:rolleyes:

I was wondering if anyone else noticed them doing that. Particularly the first 2.

rexnom
04-30-2008, 11:26 AM
The agenda nbeing to end the series as soon as possible so they can get a few days off?????
I don't think there's an agenda necessarily, it's just that there seems to be a loophole in NBA officiating - flopping - and the Spurs are taking full advantage of it. I am a series or two away from dismissing the Spurs dominance the past few years as just taking advantage of the rulebook, whether it be through Ginobili and Parker's ridiculous flopping, Tim Duncan's incessant whining or Bruce Bowen's dirty playing. What's crazy is that all these guys are talented enough not to resort to these tactics but doing this seems to give them a bit of an edge, I guess.

cramerica
04-30-2008, 12:19 PM
NBA refs have gotten slightly better this year, but for the most part they are pretty bad. The bickering that they let the players get away with is pathetic and they still favor the star players a bit over the rooks/little played players.

Side note...what's up with this small box in the quick reply?

Shade
04-30-2008, 12:31 PM
I think most of us can agree that, intentional or not, overall NBA officiating is sub-par (or worse). It seems to get even worse during the playoffs.

The question is, how do we fix it?

SycamoreKen
04-30-2008, 12:36 PM
I really don't get the flopping complaints especially the last game. Nash and Bell do just as much. Besides, as long as Diaw is allowed to just shove a guy under the basket all night and use his off hand to clear space, the Suns have nothing to complain about. And what did Bowen do this series that was dirty? Bell delivered the only cheap shot last night.

I thought both teams got calls to go their way in the game, so they really balenced out.

Putnam
04-30-2008, 01:31 PM
The question is, how do we fix it?

There are separate issues of a) the honest difficulty of calling such a fast paced game consistently and correctly, and b) deliberate bad calls by inept or corrupt refs. (I'm not saying how often that happens, but since Doneghy no one can say it never happens.)

As far as the first, the solution is to make the game more black and white. Go back to something nearer to Dr. Naismith's game. Eliminate all contact. Whenever it is unclear who caused contact, have a jumpball and assess a foul against both players. Take away the 4-steps-to-the-basket that MJ brought in, and make the offensive players dribble and shoot.

As far as the second issue, I dunno. You can fire the real cheaters as fast as you catch them, but that isn't the main issue. I think the only answer is to be a team that has the kinds of players who get the calls in their favor.