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Jose Slaughter
04-27-2008, 08:38 PM
Reggie finished with 2,560 3 pointers.

Ray Allen now has 2,100, just 460 behind.

This past season Allen nailed 180. Two more years like the last one & he's going to be just 100 away. That means in about 2 & a half seasons, Allen could be the 3 point leader.

Coop
04-27-2008, 09:02 PM
I would still rather have a Reggie in his prime than I would a Ray Allen in his prime. Allen, outside of this year, has been on terrible teams and was able to really pad his stats.

Anthem
04-27-2008, 09:05 PM
I would still rather have a Reggie in his prime than I would a Ray Allen in his prime. Allen, outside of this year, has been on terrible teams and was able to really pad his stats.
Ray does a lot of stuff Reggie never did.

He's not the playoff performer Reggie was, but if we'd had him instead of Reggie we'd have won more games in the regular season.

He can do a lot more when his shot's not falling.

Coop
04-27-2008, 09:16 PM
Ray does a lot of stuff Reggie never did.

He's not the playoff performer Reggie was, but if we'd had him instead of Reggie we'd have won more games in the regular season.

He can do a lot more when his shot's not falling.


That could be true. I feel like Reggie was a better leader than Allen is though which in my opinion makes up for some of his other deficiencies. Even if his shots weren't falling, you could always count on Reg to be the coach on the court. Regardless, I personally would sacrifice a couple wins a year if I was guaranteed the clutch performances that we got out of Reggie over the years.

If Allen does end up passing Reggie, who would everyone consider the better shooter of the two? Both shoot about the same 3pt % for their careers. Allen has just shot a much higher volume while Reggie was more effective getting to the line and hitting free throws at a 90% clip.

BlueNGold
04-27-2008, 10:10 PM
I think Ray Allen is generally at the same level talent-wise, but he definitely padded his stats by calling his own number the last few years in lowly Seattle after getting pushed out of Milwaukee by Michael Redd.

At Seattle there are the 2 seasons that peak his 3pt attempts...all 5 seasons peaked his ppg total...and only one season above .500 and one trip to the playoffs in 5 years...One season the Sonics were under .500 he had 653 attempts compared to a max of 528 by Miller....that's generally padding IMO.

The year the Sonics went to the second round and actually competed, his shooting percentages were noticeably down. I guess that's what happens when someone starts defending you...

...and I think the matchup we had with the Bucks in 99 and '00 made some people overrate Allen. Allen was a 25 year old SG and Miller was 35 a couple years past his prime. It would be interesting to see them in competition on level ground.

Again, I'm not saying there's a big difference here....only pointing out they went entirely different routes. If Miller had a really good team like Allen did at the age of 24, the Pacers may have a championship.

In any event, the only significant difference is what Reggie brings during the playoffs in terms of clutch play...I guess the proof might be that the Pacers actually played in the NBA finals during Reggie's tenure.

D-BONE
04-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Well, the better or best shooter debate has to be qualified. Obviously, if you're talking number of threes it's whoever of those two ends up with most. At least for the short term.

Best pure shooter though could be quite subjective and pull in many more names. Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Larry Bird and many more that escape me on short notice.

BlueNGold
04-27-2008, 10:23 PM
For those counting, Reggie led the Pacers to 15 years of post season play only missing one year during his last 16 years....and scored 27 pts his last game at the age of 40.

There's a reason he has a reputation. I could be wrong, but I don't see Mr. Allen making that kind of impact.

...and yes, I am very biased....;<)

kidthecat
04-27-2008, 11:41 PM
An oldish Reggie outplayed Ray in the 2000 series. I don't think there's a lot of question regarding the more esteemed player. George Karl himself thought the world of Reggie.

Stryder
04-27-2008, 11:52 PM
In the end, the one who ends up with the most 3 pointers made will be # 1...you cannot argue with that.

If Allen does pass Reggie, then it will be a true accomplishment.

mboyle1313
04-28-2008, 12:27 AM
Savants,

Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

Miller
24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

Allen
22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

MJB

Sollozzo
04-28-2008, 12:36 AM
Savants,

Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

Miller
24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

Allen
22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

MJB

Not to mention that Allen was still a young buck back then (no pun intended), while Reggie was the seasoned vet who had been in that position many times before. Wasn't that just Allen's second playoff series in his career? (the first being in 99 against us?).

And for those who complain that Allen's stats are skewed because he ran up his stats on bad teams, what do you call Reggie's early years? Reggie averaged the most points in his career on bad Pacer teams, while his PPG averages were usually shy of 20 on the teams that went far. It's the same case with both player.

If Allen gets the record, I don't think there's a debate.

Kaufman
04-28-2008, 01:41 AM
Jose - I think that that 3 point record was made to be broken. If not Ray, then someone else would have gotten it. It was Chuck Person's for a while. The three point shot is too new (relatively speaking) in the game of basketball for that record to have stood for long. Maybe I'm wrong - we'll see in another 20 years where Reggie is on that list. I would think he'll drop a few slots, maybe anywhere from 1-3 spots down.

Mark - long time no see! Been busy? Any interesting road trips to tell us about?

heywoode
04-28-2008, 08:35 AM
I would give the edge for best all-around player to Allen because of what else he can do with the ball. Reggie's leadership was outstanding, but he was pretty one-dimensional, although he could slash a bit and get to the foul line. Reggie moves better without the ball and around screens, but Allen is clearly the better all-around player to me.

Best 3-pt. shooter isn't necessarily all Reggie either. He was great in the clutch, but so were/are a lot of players. For my money, if I have a Game 7, seven seconds to go, and down by two, I want Larry Bird taking that shot, with Reggie second, and MJ third...Maybe Big Shot Bob thrown in at fourth.....

Reggie is still my favorite player of all time, just because he's Reggie.

Unclebuck
04-28-2008, 12:00 PM
Savants,

Interesting debate, and I can see both sides of it. In reference to the statement that Reggie outplayed Allen in 2000, here are the numbers:

Miller
24.2 PPG, 46% FG (28% 3-pt FG), 2.4 RPG, 2.2 APG

Allen
22.0 PPG, 44% FG, 39% 3-pt FG, 6.6 RPG , 2.6 APG

That, to me, is essentially a wash. That was a splendid series, and I remember both players being stellar over the course of the five games. In the big picture, I would give Allen a slight edge as an overall player, but he still has a long way to go to establish himself as the clutch player Reggie was.

MJB


All excellent points. Ray can create off the dribble much better than Reggie ever could.

But I think Reggie had a much greater impact on that series than did Ray Allen. Reggie carried the Pacers to wins in games 3 and games 5. Virtually taking over both games in the second halves. Reggie's scoring average is a little skewed due to two poor games in which the Pacers got blown out.

OK- I just looked it up and my memory is better than I thought it was.

Game 1 Reggie scored 21 - Pacers win
Game 2 Reggie scores 10 - Pacers get blown out
Game 3 Reggie scores 34 - pacers win on the road
Game 4 Reggie scores 15 - pacers get blown out
Game 5 Reggie scores 41 - pacers win

mboyle1313
04-28-2008, 12:10 PM
Kaufman,

No exotic trips, though I'll take several short jaunts to kibitz with some of my baseball cronies.

Another thought occurs to me as an offshoot of the Reggie discussion. Is Reggie a Hall of Famer? It seems likely to me, though I base that almost solely on the strength of his clutch play in the post season environment. His regular season numbers, while impressive, are not (in my view) HOF worthy, with the notable exception of his 3-point total.

This really, to a degree, is an extension of my belief that the Hall of Fame already has too many folks in it and, as a result, is really the Hall of Really Good. That said, I would readily acknowledge that my definition of great is probably far less inclusive than that of the average fan.

MJB

mboyle1313
04-28-2008, 12:13 PM
Buck,

While your memory of the flow of that series is accurate, it should be noted that Reggie played a total of 64 minutes in the two blowout losses while Allen played a total of 67.

In other words, if Reggie's numbers are skewed, so are Ray's.

MJB

Jonathan
04-28-2008, 12:55 PM
Reggie Miller did a great job acting in the television show Hanging w/ Mr Cooper. Ray Allen was not a good actor in He Got Game, in fact Travis Best was better. I am giving this debate to REGGIE!

Los Angeles
04-28-2008, 03:32 PM
Kaufman,

No exotic trips, though I'll take several short jaunts to kibitz with some of my baseball cronies.

Another thought occurs to me as an offshoot of the Reggie discussion. Is Reggie a Hall of Famer? It seems likely to me, though I base that almost solely on the strength of his clutch play in the post season environment. His regular season numbers, while impressive, are not (in my view) HOF worthy, with the notable exception of his 3-point total.

This really, to a degree, is an extension of my belief that the Hall of Fame already has too many folks in it and, as a result, is really the Hall of Really Good. That said, I would readily acknowledge that my definition of great is probably far less inclusive than that of the average fan.

MJB
Mr Boyle,

You're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone within these walls that there should even be a debate.

Does the Hall include too many players? Perhaps. But the standard has been set, and narrowing the standard would be a mistake.

If the hall was called the "Hall of Statistics" then Reggie would be only one of many "very good" shooting guards just from his era. There's little to distinguish him from the pack.

Thankfully, it is not the "Hall of Statistics", it is the Hall of FAME.

I had one of those "Oh crap I'm surrounded by Lakers fans" conversations at Rick's Tavern in Santa Monica. This crowd was a bit older and scholarly and as the conversation went on, they could tell that I knew a bit about basketball. Inevitably, one of the guys asked me who "my team" was.

"Pacers," I said.

The response of one of the guys was remarkable. "Reggie Miller. One of the all-time greats. You were lucky to have so many great memories with that guy. I'm not even a fan, and his moments were some of my favorites all time." And that was that. Reggie miller, brought to you by an average guy wearing purple and gold.

Many memories fade, but reggie's memories for some reason stick not just with Indiana fans but with fans of the league as a whole.

Statistically, Reggie was merely "very good". However, as far as true fame goes, his legend is what matters here. Reggie is a Hall of Famer.

kidthecat
04-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Beautiful.

mboyle1313
04-28-2008, 03:57 PM
Los Angeles,

No argument here. As you'll note in my previous post, I consider it likely that he'll wind up in the HOF. I was just curious as to what others thought.

MJB

Pacersfan46
04-28-2008, 04:26 PM
If Ray breaks the record, I think that's all well and fair, honestly.

Reggie was a 20 point per game scorer, but he never jacked up many shots, or forced anything. I think he could have pushed 25 ppg, or more if he would have been so inclined to really be one of the NBA's top scorers regularly.

As an example, in 18 years with only missing significant time in one season where he played 50 games, he took 6486 3's. On Allens side, in 12 seasons, and missing significant time in 3 or 4 seasons, he has taken 5,290 3's.

Or we can look at it this way ....

Allen - 5,290 3's in 863 games

Reggie - 6,486 3's in 1,389 games.

Clearly Ray jacks them up more often, and this isn't a knock on him, because he shoots roughly the same percentage as Reggie, but it says more about one of two things .... Reggie's inability to create his own shot, or his willingness to pass the ball. Either way, Ray will have earned it fairly, and I will be fine with it. I think it just shows how unselfish and team oriented Reggie was, personally.


-- Steve --

Anthem
04-28-2008, 04:29 PM
Savants,
I love it.

Ownagedood
04-28-2008, 04:43 PM
Ray Allen Career 3's: 2100-5291 .397

Reggie Miller Career 3's: 2560-6486 .395

Ya, sadly Allen is better shooter than Miller.. I wish Miller could always be remembered as the best sharpshooter. Ever. But it's not going to happen.

That being said. There is still no way in hell I pick Allen over Miller.

idioteque
04-28-2008, 05:06 PM
Ray Allen Career 3's: 2100-5291 .397

Reggie Miller Career 3's: 2560-6486 .395

Ya, sadly Allen is better shooter than Miller.. I wish Miller could always be remembered as the best sharpshooter. Ever. But it's not going to happen.

That being said. There is still no way in hell I pick Allen over Miller.

By .2 of a percent, c'mon. Allen could miss like three threes in a row and then Reggie would be the better shooter.

Anthem
04-28-2008, 05:11 PM
By .2 of a percent, c'mon. Allen could miss like three threes in a row and then Reggie would be the better shooter.
Actually, Ray could miss his next 25 in a row and still have a better percentage.

But I agree that it's not significant for that volume.

Hicks
04-28-2008, 05:17 PM
Good to see you again, MJB!

Ownagedood
04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
By .2 of a percent, c'mon. Allen could miss like three threes in a row and then Reggie would be the better shooter.
Ya, but the point is.. Allen is going to pass Reggie in 3's hit.. Meaning he would be known as the greatest.. No matter if his percentage is better or not.

Jose Slaughter
04-28-2008, 07:01 PM
Yep

That was the whole point of the thread.

Not to compare the two but to simply point out that Allen more than likely will catch Miller's record in about 3 seasons.

Cactus Jax
04-28-2008, 07:14 PM
Reggie's memories are what make him a HoF'er. His 25 fourth quarter points in NY, and the 8 points in 20 seconds in NY, and his duel with MJ in 1998, these are some of the most memorable moments of the past 10-15 years, NBA wise.

I think the NBA players themselves are actually invited pretty well into the hall, its all the foreign coaches and players, and out of the blue names that have never ever been heard of outside of their families really.

MJB, be sure to rest that voice, and sing that sweet serenade next season.

BlueNGold
04-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Reggie's memories are what make him a HoF'er. His 25 fourth quarter points in NY, and the 8 points in 20 seconds in NY, and his duel with MJ in 1998, these are some of the most memorable moments of the past 10-15 years, NBA wise.

...and don't forget the choke sign and Spike Lee. The NBA is entertainment and Reggie was Hollywood.

As for the game, whether Ray Allen is a more accurate shooter or slightly better overall is just about irrelevant when you consider there's not a significant talent difference. What matters is winning in the post season...and stepping it up under pressure. 15 of 16 straight seasons in the playoffs versus a handful of less effective playoff runs is the measuring stick.

As for the 3pt record, barring injury, it's pretty obvious Allen breaks it within a few years.

count55
04-29-2008, 08:00 AM
I'll take Reggie and be happy with it. If someone else wants to take Allen, good for them. I don't think arguments like these have an empirical answer to them, and they're impossible to prove.

I'm sure it's been brought up, but for me, Reggie couldn't be measured in stats. His value was simply the way he made me feel about the Pacers when he was with them.

Unclebuck
04-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Mr Boyle,

You're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone within these walls that there should even be a debate.

Does the Hall include too many players? Perhaps. But the standard has been set, and narrowing the standard would be a mistake.

If the hall was called the "Hall of Statistics" then Reggie would be only one of many "very good" shooting guards just from his era. There's little to distinguish him from the pack.

Thankfully, it is not the "Hall of Statistics", it is the Hall of FAME.

I had one of those "Oh crap I'm surrounded by Lakers fans" conversations at Rick's Tavern in Santa Monica. This crowd was a bit older and scholarly and as the conversation went on, they could tell that I knew a bit about basketball. Inevitably, one of the guys asked me who "my team" was.

"Pacers," I said.

The response of one of the guys was remarkable. "Reggie Miller. One of the all-time greats. You were lucky to have so many great memories with that guy. I'm not even a fan, and his moments were some of my favorites all time." And that was that. Reggie miller, brought to you by an average guy wearing purple and gold.

Many memories fade, but reggie's memories for some reason stick not just with Indiana fans but with fans of the league as a whole.

Statistically, Reggie was merely "very good". However, as far as true fame goes, his legend is what matters here. Reggie is a Hall of Famer.



Extremely well said LA. No doubt Reggie has had some of the most memorable moments in NBA playoff history

count55
04-29-2008, 08:51 AM
Only 12 guys in the history of the game had scored more points than Reggie when he retired. That seems like a HOF-worthy mention.

dannygranger
04-23-2009, 03:47 PM
Bill Simmons thinks Ray Allen is better and thinks Reggie is overrated. Of course this is coming from a die hard Celtics fan. If Reggie played for the Celtics and Allen played for the Pacers im sure his thoughts would change.

#12
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090423&sportCat=nba

Shade
04-23-2009, 04:02 PM
Mr Boyle,

You're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone within these walls that there should even be a debate.

Does the Hall include too many players? Perhaps. But the standard has been set, and narrowing the standard would be a mistake.

If the hall was called the "Hall of Statistics" then Reggie would be only one of many "very good" shooting guards just from his era. There's little to distinguish him from the pack.

Thankfully, it is not the "Hall of Statistics", it is the Hall of FAME.

I had one of those "Oh crap I'm surrounded by Lakers fans" conversations at Rick's Tavern in Santa Monica. This crowd was a bit older and scholarly and as the conversation went on, they could tell that I knew a bit about basketball. Inevitably, one of the guys asked me who "my team" was.

"Pacers," I said.

The response of one of the guys was remarkable. "Reggie Miller. One of the all-time greats. You were lucky to have so many great memories with that guy. I'm not even a fan, and his moments were some of my favorites all time." And that was that. Reggie miller, brought to you by an average guy wearing purple and gold.

Many memories fade, but reggie's memories for some reason stick not just with Indiana fans but with fans of the league as a whole.

Statistically, Reggie was merely "very good". However, as far as true fame goes, his legend is what matters here. Reggie is a Hall of Famer.

:applaud:

This is POTY worthy right here, IMO. Nicely done.

Shade
04-23-2009, 04:05 PM
Bill Simmons thinks Ray Allen is better and thinks Reggie is overrated. Of course this is coming from a die hard Celtics fan. If Reggie played for the Celtics and Allen played for the Pacers im sure his thoughts would change.

#12
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090423&sportCat=nba

Bil Simmons is also an infamous homer, and often wrong with his predictions.

If Reggie had decided to play for the Celtics, his opinion would be completely different.

I like reading Simmons, but a spade is a spade.

Infinite MAN_force
04-23-2009, 04:09 PM
Bill's admission of his own reaction to the initial trade says it all...

"Just know that I hated the trade when it happened. We're giving up the No. 5 pick for a washed-up shooting guard coming off two ankle surgeries? Really? Where is this taking us?"

His Boston homerism on full display as usual. Suddenly that washed up shooting gaurd is better than reggie because of what? That one championship run where he was the third most important player on the team? I doubt they ever win another one anyway.

Hicks
04-23-2009, 04:12 PM
I suspect if you swap Ray Allen for Reggie Miller on the Pacers from '88 to '05, he has a better career than Reggie did because I see Ray as a more talented individual, but of course there's no way to know.

count55
04-23-2009, 04:14 PM
:applaud:

This is POTY worthy right here, IMO. Nicely done.

I thought so to...I don't know how it didn't get one last year.

QuickRelease
04-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Interesting enough, Tuesday on the Dan Patrick Show, Reggie said that he felt that he wasn't a HOF player, and also stated that Ray Allen is ahead of him in the HOF discussion since he'd won a championship. I was actually surprised that didn't make it on PD for discussion. Here's the link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/listenlive.player.html?file=http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/danpatrick/audio/2009/04/21/DP-Reggie_Miller-04-21-09_Interview.mp3

croz24
04-23-2009, 05:36 PM
why do people rarely mention how few shots reggie attempted per game as a pacer? he liked to allow his teammates to get involved in the game and defer to them until he was needed most. if reggie wanted to average 25+ppg for his career, he could have easily imo. reggie miller is without question one of the most efficient nba players of all time and a pure leader. ray allen never led his teams anywhere until he was the #3 option behind pierce and garnett.

ABADays
04-23-2009, 07:23 PM
It wouldn't matter to me if Allen broke the record because Reggie was Reggie. Allen could only dream of the dramatics Reggie produced in the playoffs.

ABADays
04-23-2009, 07:40 PM
Bill Simmons thinks Ray Allen is better and thinks Reggie is overrated. Of course this is coming from a die hard Celtics fan. If Reggie played for the Celtics and Allen played for the Pacers im sure his thoughts would change.

#12
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090423&sportCat=nba

Thanks for the link. Interesting.

Doug
04-23-2009, 07:45 PM
I think from a basketball player standpoint, it's about even. Ray does some things better than Reggie did. Reggie had all those BIG moments. Might Ray even be the better basketball player? Could be.

Then you start thinking the Hall of Fame.

I think there's no question Reggie gets in. There's just too many of those big moments (combined with the rest of his "body of work") to keep him out. Those moments, those daggers, are some of the little bits of glory that every fan on a playground wants to dream they can do.

But does Ray? He might be a better basketball player, but is he a better 'Hall of Famer' than Reggie? He's got a ring, and that is something. But he might be borderline out. Indeed, the "Hall of Very Good" might be better suited for Ray.

The question "what makes a good player great?" is an interesting one.

ABADays
04-23-2009, 07:45 PM
Mr Boyle,

You're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone within these walls that there should even be a debate.

Does the Hall include too many players? Perhaps. But the standard has been set, and narrowing the standard would be a mistake.

If the hall was called the "Hall of Statistics" then Reggie would be only one of many "very good" shooting guards just from his era. There's little to distinguish him from the pack.

Thankfully, it is not the "Hall of Statistics", it is the Hall of FAME.

I had one of those "Oh crap I'm surrounded by Lakers fans" conversations at Rick's Tavern in Santa Monica. This crowd was a bit older and scholarly and as the conversation went on, they could tell that I knew a bit about basketball. Inevitably, one of the guys asked me who "my team" was.

"Pacers," I said.

The response of one of the guys was remarkable. "Reggie Miller. One of the all-time greats. You were lucky to have so many great memories with that guy. I'm not even a fan, and his moments were some of my favorites all time." And that was that. Reggie miller, brought to you by an average guy wearing purple and gold.

Many memories fade, but reggie's memories for some reason stick not just with Indiana fans but with fans of the league as a whole.

Statistically, Reggie was merely "very good". However, as far as true fame goes, his legend is what matters here. Reggie is a Hall of Famer.

I had a similar experience in Iraq. A Filipino driver picked me up one day when I was wearing my Pacers hat and all he said was "Reggie Miller".

BlueNGold
04-23-2009, 08:31 PM
Interesting enough, Tuesday on the Dan Patrick Show, Reggie said that he felt that he wasn't a HOF player, and also stated that Ray Allen is ahead of him in the HOF discussion since he'd won a championship. I was actually surprised that didn't make it on PD for discussion. Here's the link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/listenlive.player.html?file=http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/danpatrick/audio/2009/04/21/DP-Reggie_Miller-04-21-09_Interview.mp3

Ha. I wonder if Reggie Miller at a similar age could win a championship teamed with Garnett and Pierce. Come on Reg...the fact Ray won a championship is the same reason Paul Pierce won a championship. It was not long ago when we were pounding Pierce.

There is no significant difference in talent level. Beyond that, it's all opinion. IMO, Reggie had more spice for the dramatics and stepped up his game when it counted the most.

LoneGranger33
04-23-2009, 08:39 PM
This debate is moot.

Troy Murphy will have the most threes when all is said and done.

Kid Minneapolis
04-23-2009, 09:51 PM
This debate is moot.

Troy Murphy will have the most threes when all is said and done.

Lol, I almost said that and didn't... but I was thinking it!

Kid Minneapolis
04-23-2009, 09:56 PM
Ray and Reggie are fairly even, talent-wise.

Reggie is way more "memorable", in my mind, for his theatrics and dramatics and clutch plays. I think they both deserve HOF honors. Before Allen won his championship, I woulda said Ray was probably not in, but close to being on the fence. With the ring, he's now in the conversation for sure, especially if he goes on to break the 3-record and climb the all-time scoring list.

I will say this, though: Reggie never played on a team that contained the likes of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce. He also had Michael Jordan as a nemesis... Reggie may not have the ring, but most people recognize that he was on par with, if not a great player than, Ray Allen.

danman
04-23-2009, 11:37 PM
Ray and Reggie are fairly even, talent-wise.

Reggie is way more "memorable", in my mind, for his theatrics and dramatics and clutch plays. I think they both deserve HOF honors. Before Allen won his championship, I woulda said Ray was probably not in, but close to being on the fence. With the ring, he's now in the conversation for sure, especially if he goes on to break the 3-record and climb the all-time scoring list.

I will say this, though: Reggie never played on a team that contained the likes of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce. He also had Michael Jordan as a nemesis... Reggie may not have the ring, but most people recognize that he was on par with, if not a great player than, Ray Allen.

Yeah. Or put another way, Reggie isn't a Hall of Famer on numbers. Other than longevity and 3 pointers, little stands out in his stats. And he racked up damn few all star appearances for a HoF candidate... which is a common marker for who the best players on an era are.

But yeah, few players were more memorable. He had some games with Chicago and the Knicks that had the whole basketball world in an uproar. He was must see TV. That counts for a lot.

PS: The only overrated thing about Reggie is his alleged leadership... unless you're thinking of leadership by example, like his training regimen or whatever. Reggie was no leader. The most you could say is that he became an elder statesman late in his career.

naptownmenace
04-24-2009, 01:51 PM
Yeah. Or put another way, Reggie isn't a Hall of Famer on numbers. Other than longevity and 3 pointers, little stands out in his stats. And he racked up damn few all star appearances for a HoF candidate... which is a common marker for who the best players on an era are.

But yeah, few players were more memorable. He had some games with Chicago and the Knicks that had the whole basketball world in an uproar. He was must see TV. That counts for a lot.

PS: The only overrated thing about Reggie is his alleged leadership... unless you're thinking of leadership by example, like his training regimen or whatever. Reggie was no leader. The most you could say is that he became an elder statesman late in his career.

I agree with everything. Reggie was a prolific scorer because of his longevity, one of a select few who have scored over 25,000 points, and he has those numerous playoff performances to back him up.

The part about the leadership (on the floor) is true too. However, he was a guy who the coach could point to and say, "Look at Reggie's work ethic and approach to the game and try and be like him."

Reg wasn't much of a leader or coach on the floor but he was a leader and coach during practice and in the lockerroom. He was the heart and soul of the Pacers and everyone knew it. He was dependable and consistent too so his teammates could trust him late in the fourth quarter and they would do whatever they could to get him the ball.



Regarding Ray Allen possibly surpassing Reggie... as long as Ray stays healthy, he'll be #1 on the all-time 3-pointers list. But for a while it looked like Glen Rice was going to pass Reggie and injuries set in and ended his career before he could.

I don't wish anything bad happen to Ray to keep him from passing Reggie, I'm just saying that there's no guarantee he will pass him. ;)

idioteque
04-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Bill Simmons thinks Ray Allen is better and thinks Reggie is overrated. Of course this is coming from a die hard Celtics fan. If Reggie played for the Celtics and Allen played for the Pacers im sure his thoughts would change.

#12
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090423&sportCat=nba

Bill Simmons is also a giant homer tool, which is a shame because his insight, when not related to Boston sports, is actually pretty interesting. I guess ESPN thinks having someone with such a strong opinion will bring more interest to their website, and it probably does, but I avoid any article where I think there is a good chance he will talk about the Celtics or the Patriots.

As for this debate, it is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Croz touched on the fact that Ray Allen didn't lead any team anywhere until he was the #3 option on a championship caliber team. Reggie Miller make multiple ECF and one Finals appearance as #1 or at least #1B option. This years playoff theatrics (in one game) aside, Ray Allen is not nearly as clutch in the playoffs as Reggie and, at least on court, doesn't seem to have the leadership abilities that Reggie had.

Sure, he may have won us more games in the regular season at certain points, but for those of us who follows the Colts, regular season wins can mean little if you don't get it done in the playoffs. I would never trade Reggie for Ray Allen.

Ray Allen seems to me like one of those guys who always had great stats but has never lead a team anywhere, he kind of reminds me of a Michael Redd or Gilbert Arenas type guy.

Los Angeles
04-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the Kudos, folks.

Even if the post was so long ago that I barely remember writing it.

Shade
04-24-2009, 03:14 PM
Ray Allen won a championship on the back of two superior players.

Reggie Miller made it to the Finals, and won two games against arguably one of the greatest teams of all time, as the best player on the team.

No contest, IMO.

McKeyFan
04-24-2009, 04:37 PM
Savants,

You guys are idiots.










;)

rexnom
04-26-2009, 03:52 PM
It's going to be hard after these playoffs, let alone after his career is over, that Ray Allen's career isn't more HoF-worthy than Reggie's.