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Peck
06-09-2004, 04:04 AM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/153452-9464-179.html

Indiana Pacers president of basketball operations Larry Bird says the NBA lacks white superstars, and his sentiment seems echoed by fellow Hall of Famer Magic Johnson, who is a Los Angeles Lakers co-owner and vice president.

In an interview for an ESPN special set to air at 6 p.m. Thursday, Jim Gray asks Bird: "Does the NBA lack enough white superstars in your opinion?"

"Well, I think so," Bird replies, according to an ESPN transcript. "You know when I played, you had me and Kevin (McHale) and some others throughout the league. I think it's good for a fan base because as we all know the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. But it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American."

Johnson then adds: "We need some more LB's, Larry Birds. I mean you know, you want that. Larry Bird, you see, can go into any neighborhood. When you say 'Larry Bird,' black people know who he is, Hispanics, whites, and they give him the respect."

Bird also says that when he was playing he "really got irritated" when a white player guarded him.

"I still don't understand why," he says. "I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."

Bird on Tuesday declined to comment further, according to a Pacers spokesman.

Johnson was unavailable for comment. NBA commissioner David Stern declined to comment.

NBA officials said the league does not maintain a breakdown of players by race.

Spurred by ESPN executive vice president Mark Shapiro's promise of a prime-time show, Gray spent four months arranging Thursday's one-hour special.

He finally got the Hall of Famers and the rookie stars together for "Two On Two," which was taped May 28 at an old high school gym in Indiana.


*******************************

Why was this even a question? This is why ESPN is crap.

Of course Bird should have answered with "What the hell differance does it make what color a player is" But, no.

Thank you Larry for further pushing along the Indiana stereotype. :thumbsdown:

Having a white player guard him was a disrespect to him? Actually it was a white player that disrespected his game & usually caused him the most problems by the name of Bobby Jones.

wintermute
06-09-2004, 04:50 AM
i just read that and i could only echo peck - WTF??? :confused:

the first part is borderline ok since it probably is true from a marketing standpoint even if it's not politically correct. but that comment about a white guy defending him really threw me off. for god's sake he's a big figure in the basketball world and ought to have more sense.

well, to be fair, these appear to be excerpts from the full interview. we probably should get them in context before judging.

in the meantime... WTF???

TheSauceMaster
06-09-2004, 04:55 AM
Not very PC , but it's the truth.

indygeezer
06-09-2004, 06:23 AM
Question: Why was that question even asked. It serves only 1 purpose. To stir shyte. There is no way to answer that quesiton w/o setting yourself up for trouble.

Stryder
06-09-2004, 07:56 AM
Not very PC , but it's the truth.

The first part is not PC, but is close to the truth, if not the truth...

The second part is assinine.

Shade
06-09-2004, 08:19 AM
Question: Why was that question even asked. It serves only 1 purpose. To stir shyte. There is no way to answer that quesiton w/o setting yourself up for trouble.

Jim Gray

'nuff said.

fwpacerfan
06-09-2004, 08:33 AM
I read this and thought the same thing - WTF?

I disagree that it pushes the "Indiana" stereotype whatever that is. Magic agreed with Bird 100%. As far as the 2nd part - I don't know what Bird was thinking.

MSA2CF
06-09-2004, 08:43 AM
It's not like Paul Hornung's comments, but I know a lot of people probably will be offended by this. I don't think it's a big deal at all, but you know ESPN will make it one.

Unclebuck
06-09-2004, 08:46 AM
I don't think it is that big a deal what Bird said. Everyone is so hyper sensitive now a days. You can't even mention anything about race anymore. My guess is Bird was being light hearted in his answer, we'll see when they show him actually saying it. Magic said the same thing basically.

sixthman
06-09-2004, 09:17 AM
I have gotten to the point in the NBA where I can honestly say skin color of a player does not come into play when identifying differences in a player - then these old school players have to resurrect the past. Dumb!

sweabs
06-09-2004, 09:18 AM
WTF!

Suaveness
06-09-2004, 09:26 AM
:laugh: Well, whatever makes him happy....


I bet this means we are going to trade for a white SG or something...of course if he's better than MJ then I'm all for it...

RWB
06-09-2004, 09:32 AM
This one is for FTC. "You can take the white guy off the garbage truck but you can't take the garbage out of the white guy". Sorry I couldn't resist. ;)

sweabs
06-09-2004, 09:34 AM
This one is for FTC. "You can take the white guy off the garbage truck but you can't take the garbage out of the white guy". Sorry I couldn't resist. ;)

You forgot to leave some blanks to make things interesting :flirt:

fwpacerfan
06-09-2004, 09:34 AM
Does this mean Peja, Dirk Nowitski and Steve Nash will be Pacers soon?

Cactus Jax
06-09-2004, 09:55 AM
Two words: Brent Barry

Will Larry's and Magic's comments be DELORTED!!! (couldn't resist :devil:) when they air the interview?

I agree with Larry, it's just that it's not the NBA's fault, some of it is white guys aren't that good overall, as most of us aren't very athletic.

Doug in CO
06-09-2004, 10:34 AM
Peck said:
Thank you Larry for further pushing along the Indiana stereotype.

This is one of the main reasons I never liked him - people look at Bird and think that is how we ig-ner-ent Hoosier are. I am from Letterman's Indiana, not Bird's thank you very much.

Bball
06-09-2004, 10:38 AM
Peck said:
Thank you Larry for further pushing along the Indiana stereotype.

This is one of the main reasons I never liked him - people look at Bird and think that is how we ig-ner-ent Hoosier are. I am from Letterman's Indiana, not Bird's thank you very much.

I saw Letterman belch last night on TV.

hmmmm

;)

-Bball

MagicRat
06-09-2004, 11:33 AM
The last part made me think of a quote from Navin R. Johnson in "The Jerk", which I dare not post here as I do not wish to cause an uproar......

Hicks
06-09-2004, 11:49 AM
Question: Why was that question even asked. It serves only 1 purpose. To stir shyte. There is no way to answer that quesiton w/o setting yourself up for trouble.

Jim Gray

'nuff said.

Yep. Which amazes me that Bird was even there, I know he hates that guy (at least a little).

Hicks
06-09-2004, 11:50 AM
This one is for FTC. "You can take the white guy off the garbage truck but you can't take the garbage out of the white guy". Sorry I couldn't resist. ;)

*groan*

ROCislandWarrior
06-09-2004, 12:25 PM
The question we should ask ourselves here:

Does this mean...

A) Bird will try to bring in a good white player

or

B) Bird won't because he doesn't think there are any (atleast to choose from) good white players.

Fool
06-09-2004, 12:44 PM
Bird references his day and only comes up with two? and only those two on his team? I think ROC has it right. Will this lack of judgment have a negative effect on the players the Pacers consider trading/trading for/signing.

And I do think it just adds to the ignorant Indiana hick stereo-type. It certainly doesn't refute it.

TheSauceMaster
06-09-2004, 12:47 PM
too many people ..tooo sensitive

What does that make Magic since he agreed with Bird ?

Doug in CO
06-09-2004, 12:54 PM
How is Austin Croshere supposed to feel? That was Bird's boy. We all knew why he picked him - interesting he actually verbalizes it. I wonder what this does to this year's draft.

indygeezer
06-09-2004, 01:10 PM
For the 2nd part..I take it to mean he was upset that they opposing coach thought so little of him as to gaurd him with a slow-footed, non-athletic, whit guy and that is what dissed LB.

Again for the 1st, there's no way to answer without coming off badly. Magic agreed so perhaps LB will get a "pass" on this.

(uh Larry...you didn't mention Rick as one of your teamates back then)

Suaveness
06-09-2004, 01:16 PM
HAHAHA....It's on the ESPN front page... :laugh:

Ultimate Frisbee
06-09-2004, 01:41 PM
What a piece of ***** article...

LAPacer
06-09-2004, 01:53 PM
I wonder if some of the stuff is taken out of context. That is the worst thing I have read in a while regarding the Pacers. FFFFFFFFF*(&!!!

sig
06-09-2004, 02:13 PM
Two more Words: Yao Ming

Bball
06-09-2004, 02:16 PM
I was going to reserve judgement until the whole thing was out in its entirety (and I will still not go too far afield here) but reading the stuff posted at ESPN right now it seems like Magic was pretty much filling and trying to save an 'uh oh' when Larry nudged up against a line he shouldn't have been at.

With Magic's comments it took some steam off of what Larry was saying (or how it could be read).

I am curious as to how this will be accepted, and whether ESPN will play it up or let it die if it doesn't have immediate legs.

-Bball

Doug in CO
06-09-2004, 02:22 PM
they are airing clips as well - he looks like a moron

grace
06-09-2004, 02:47 PM
Dan Patrick just got done interviewing Jim Grey on the radio. I only half listened. The gist of it is that there was a lot more to the interview and it should be viewed as a whole.

I know no one likes Jim but he did a good job of keeping his opinion out of his interview with Dan. I could tell it was frustrating Dan which I loved. :)

Snickers
06-09-2004, 02:48 PM
Well, Larry's never been one to sugarcoat things.

:neutral:

Bball
06-09-2004, 02:53 PM
Let's not forget, right now ESPN is running with the most 'interesting' (read: controversial) angle of the interview because it gives them hype for the show. Hype for the show should equal a ratings boost.

-Bball

Kegboy
06-09-2004, 02:59 PM
I have gotten to the point in the NBA where I can honestly say skin color of a player does not come into play when identifying differences in a player - then these old school players have to resurrect the past. Dumb!

Ditto. Reminds me of my former sig ("The $64,000 question is, 'Does Larry Bird know what the hell he's doing?'").

The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:

Kegboy
06-09-2004, 03:03 PM
The best thing about not being in the finals--not losing a 6 point lead in the last minute.

Love the sig. :applaud:

Snickers
06-09-2004, 03:09 PM
The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:

Right on. I've been looking through the nbadraft.net and various mock drafts, and it seems 70-80% of the "NBA Comparisons" they do are just dumb.

Quite often they're based more on what the player looks like [I've seen a couple skinny black players compared to Reggie Miller, who weren't even known for their shooting, and every tall foreign kid is either Yao or Muresan] Darius Rice is Darius Miles with a better jumper and less athleticism?? That sounds like an entirely different kind of player to me.

I really don't get it. :whoknows:

Kegboy
06-09-2004, 03:13 PM
Darius Rice is Darius Miles with a better jumper and less athleticism??

:disturbed:

In other words, "This guy doesn't really remind me of anyone off the top of my head, and I'm too busy to do some research, so I'll just say Darius Miles since they have the same first name." Ludicrous.

Hicks
06-09-2004, 03:26 PM
I'll have the clips that are on ESPN motion on the site in a little bit so everyone can see what he said.

It looks awkward, but not that bad.

Hicks
06-09-2004, 03:43 PM
OK here it is, .mov format.

Right Click, Save As:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/bird_512kbps.mov

SkipperZ
06-09-2004, 03:50 PM
oh come on... you go to the playground or gym and play a pickup game and if you see a white guy matched up with you as opposed to a black guy 99% of people would feel at least slightly more confident, regardless of how good that white player turns out to be...

and the remaining 1% are Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant where it doesnt matter whos guarding them (except for maybe Ron Artest).

hell when i go to the gym if i see an asian guy matched up with me im licking my chops...

The only thing ill disagree with from what larry said was...
"I still don't understand why," he says. "I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."

...because most asians I know arent as good as the white guys, or at the very least they are on the whole a lot shorter.

Maybe not too PC, but its the truth... political correctness is overrated anyways. In my opinion theres a difference between insensitivity, ignorance or being insulting (like isiah saying larry was only considered great because he was white / kevin garnett making gun references to game 7 of the second round) and being just politically incorrect (larry's comments) as being politically incorrect is not a big deal.

TheSauceMaster
06-09-2004, 04:03 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Larry said , I think his comments about he got mad when he was gaurded by a white player meant most white guys in the league weren't very good and Larry wanted to be gaurded by the Best and he Felt the Black players were better.

sweabs
06-09-2004, 04:14 PM
Everything Larry said is true.

LAPacer
06-09-2004, 04:24 PM
hell when i go to the gym if i see an asian guy matched up with me im licking my chops...

The only thing ill disagree with from what larry said was...
"I still don't understand why," he says. "I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."

...because most asians I know arent as good as the white guys, or at the very least they are on the whole a lot shorter.



You must have got beat down by some Asian guys when you were younger.

clownskull
06-09-2004, 06:08 PM
How is Austin Croshere supposed to feel? That was Bird's boy. We all knew why he picked him - interesting he actually verbalizes it. I wonder what this does to this year's draft.
actually we took a.c. because he looked to be the best remaining player available. i do believe that. as far as how a.c. feels- hell, i don't care and i dout cro is gonna have sleepless nights because of this. this ultra-sensitive crap of where no one can say anything about anyone of any other race is pathetic. i remember dennis rodman trashed bird bigtime after the '87' ecf's saying how he was so overated because is white and that if he were black he would just be another good player and some stuff like that. bird didn't have a nervous breakdown after that and, i really don't see what the big deal here is either.

sweabs
06-09-2004, 06:16 PM
i remember dennis rodman trashed bird bigtime after the '87' ecf's saying how he was so overated because is white and that if he were black he would just be another good player and some stuff like that.

Wasn't that Isaih Thomas who said that?

Hoop
06-09-2004, 06:21 PM
i remember dennis rodman trashed bird bigtime after the '87' ecf's saying how he was so overated because is white and that if he were black he would just be another good player and some stuff like that.

Wasn't that Isaih Thomas who said that?

No, Rodman said it, Isiah agreed with him, then later apologized.

MSA2CF
06-09-2004, 06:29 PM
Mike Wilbon seems to think like some of us. He doesn't disagree with anything Larry said and doesn't think it's a big deal. :)

Ant
06-09-2004, 07:10 PM
Yeah its not really a big deal at all in my mind, i mean cmon everything he said had merit to it. The media are just looking to make something out of nothing so they will have something to yap about.

MarionDeputy
06-09-2004, 07:23 PM
The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:

Well said couldn't agree more......

Bball
06-09-2004, 10:11 PM
Not very PC , but it's the truth.

You see that's what I'm talking about.

Bird's just keeping it real.
:confused:

I don't get those here in this thread (and elsewhere) WHO DEFINITELY SOUND LIKE THE STEREOTYPE saying that it's Bird who is perpetuating it.

I say some here need to have a talk with the man in the mirror.

:o

Hello Led,
Let me just say I have no idea which side of the fence you are on here. The smilies makes me think you intended some sarcasm.... but then you still weren't clear.

I don't get those here in this thread (and elsewhere) WHO DEFINITELY SOUND LIKE THE STEREOTYPE saying that it's Bird who is perpetuating it.

Just so we are clear:
What 'stereotype' are you refering to?

What is this 'it' that you think some are accusing Bird of perpetuating?

-Bball

Bball
06-09-2004, 10:36 PM
The word STEREOTYPE is mentiond several times in this thread.

But (similar to your annoying 'method' posts in the POLITICAL FORUM) I am reqquired or it is requested of ONLY ME to define what I mean when using it.
:confused:

You and your double standards be damned.

Ask everyone else who used it prior to myself to define it and after they are done telling you WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW .....

Then I will tell you that I think I am talking about...

TO BE CONT.

The other folks in this thread were clear. You post was not. I have no idea which side of this debate that you are on. I'm sure I am not alone. If you wish to speak/write in near riddles and half finished thoughts then don't shoot me when I ask you for some clarity.

I'm not arguing with your statement because I have no idea what it is. Your reply just makes it more perplexing. Double standards?

Are you talking about stereotyping blacks? Whites? NBA players? Indiana? Rural Indiana?

I can't read your mind.

-Bball

brichard
06-09-2004, 10:57 PM
I am going to weigh my two cents in on this one. First of all, what Larry said was not PC and for that I think it was a bad move on his part. However, knowing who he is, let me try to define what I think "Larry-speak" means.

1. Marketing- People in racing talk about this all the time. NASCAR is doing so well and is so popular when compared to open wheel racing. One of the complaints people have is that their are no "Americans" in the Open Wheel series. You can translate however you want, but that by and large means white guys. There are other nationalities that race in America, but there are only a few Asians and African Americans I can think of. Open wheel racing is dominated by Brazilians and the series isn't nearly as popular. The NBA is a business and they are always going to look at ways to maximize viewership etc.

Larry is addressing the simple fact that there aren't many white stars in a league that is followed by an audience with white people. If somebody addressed that the NHL didn't have enough black players, nobody would think it is a big deal. But a white guy mentions something... and it is perceived as bad. It is a bit of a double standard.

2. Compliment- Larry was simply saying that he acknowledged that black players were the creme de la creme of the league. He considered himself to be at the top... and he wanted to be guarded by the top. No matter how it came out, this was simply a compliment to black athletes. Granted it was delivered with as much smoothness as Jimmy "The Greek"...

And let me clarify this... stereotyping is not wrong, discrimination is wrong. We all stereotype. You have a stereotype in your mind about the guy holding the "Will work for Food" sign, the preacher on TV, etc. Different advertisers market to different psychographics all the time. Have you ever noticed how Sprite really targets African Americans? Watch their commercials sometime and you'll see it is true.

Saying black players are better in the NBA is a stereotype, but it is also true. Just go look at the statistics and see what your case tells you.

Now, if you won't hire a white player on your team simply b/c he is white without giving him the same opportunities as somebody else... that is where discrimination comes in. Discrimination is wrong, and stereotyping is not. And if you think stereotyping is wrong I have some news for you... we all do it. You wouldn't go to a wedding in overalls unless you wanted to be stereotyped as a backward hillbilly. You would wear a suit.

How Larry said what he said was bad. And more importantly, why he said what he said in a public forum is just plain puzzling. However, I don't think he was condoning discrimination at all here.

Unclebuck
06-09-2004, 11:52 PM
The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:



Great, great point, that bugs me too.

Snickers
06-09-2004, 11:59 PM
The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:



Great, great point, that bugs me too.

On a sorta related note, I remember Wally Szczerbiak complaining about this when he was continuously compared to white players, and he said his game is most similar to Glen Rice's, but he never gets that comparison because he's black.

wintermute
06-10-2004, 06:39 AM
Now, if you won't hire a white player on your team simply b/c he is white without giving him the same opportunities as somebody else... that is where discrimination comes in. Discrimination is wrong, and stereotyping is not. And if you think stereotyping is wrong I have some news for you... we all do it. You wouldn't go to a wedding in overalls unless you wanted to be stereotyped as a backward hillbilly. You would wear a suit.

How Larry said what he said was bad. And more importantly, why he said what he said in a public forum is just plain puzzling. However, I don't think he was condoning discrimination at all here.

great post, i agree with most of it, but your conclusion bugs me.

stereotyping is ok, but discrimination isn't? well, so larry stereotypes, but presumably he can tell that jeff foster, despite his being white, is actually quite athletic and a good defender. so good for larry, he can see beyond stereotypes.

but how about the average joe coach, or joe manager, he hears, hey larry bird says white guys can't defend, it must be true coming from him, let's get this kid instead.

that's why stereotyping is wrong too, because not everyone can see beyond stereotypes, and having a public figure like bird say it just reinforces the stereotype.

beyond the rightness or wrongness of the statement, can we all agree that saying it at all was assinine?

Ultimate Frisbee
06-10-2004, 10:42 AM
Just to be fair... I know what Larry said was stupid and he should have know ESPN and most of the media would be out for blood considering what he said as racist... but...

See this article...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-040609larrybird,1,7432319.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

LAPacer
06-10-2004, 11:09 AM
I think it is a big deal. If we dismiss it and think like some people on the forum "oh its no big deal". Then in everyone's mind, you can make racist comments in public, and it ok... it no big deal. People say, stuff he said was true.. It's not. Kirilenko (#4 in steals, #3 in blocks). Ginobili (#7 in steals). There are white guys that can play D. To lump them in with white guys that can't play D is so racist and isn't even funny. The people who are so insensitive and say that PC is overrated are the type of people that perpetuate racism. "So he said something racist, its true, get over it, big deal.." Thats why racism is a sensitive issue. Some people still don't get it.

Stereotyping is wrong, if its by race, then it becomes a form of racism. There are all sorts of race stereotypes out there and 99.9% of them are wrong, because there are always exceptions. Alot of it is funny to some, but the race that is being stereotyped doesn't think its funny. Since Larry stereotyped by race, he really hurt his reputation. What if you replace "whites" in his statements with "mexicans", don't you think the Mexican community would be pissed. Saying that you are offended or disrespected when a member of a race is guarding you is a blatantly racist comment.

Stryder
06-10-2004, 11:17 AM
No big deal, whatsoever.

ChicagoJ
06-10-2004, 11:31 AM
Just to be fair... I know what Larry said was stupid and he should have know ESPN and most of the media would be out for blood considering what he said as racist... but...

See this article...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-040609larrybird,1,7432319.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Several league officials who declined to comment for attribution privately supported Bird. One who had listened to the entire interview said the remark came during a broader discussion that included talk about the influx of European players.

Another brought up the fact Bird used to stage a charity basketball game at Market Square Arena that benefited, in part, the Indiana Black Expo, a non-profit organization.

"I'm fairly certain it wasn't meant the way it was portrayed," Skiles said. "I think it's something drawing way too much attention already."

I really don't like the "sound-byte" world we live in sometimes. One small portion of the interview is getting sensationalized when its possibly being taken out of its context. :unimpressed: Until we see the entire interview, I have no opinion.

indygeezer
06-10-2004, 03:39 PM
OK then, Larry is prejudiced...against white players. That's what he said! He was offended by white players gaurding him because they aren't good enough. So, LB is prejudiced against whites.



I go back to the emcee of the tv program (Jim Gray was it???), What was the purpose of the question. There can be only one. To trap somebody into saying soomething that causes controversy and raises their ratings. How many will watch the interview now because of all the controversy??? Show of hands please! Here in the internet we have a term for somebody who raises issues or flames just to stir shyte, we call em trolls. Well I tell you that is exactly what Jim Gray was doing, he was being a troll...and that makes ESPN a network of trolls by extension.

TheSauceMaster
06-10-2004, 03:46 PM
Jim Gray Knows Drama Creates Ratings , Now alot more people will actually watch this , than might have before.

He threw the bait out for Larry and Larry bit into it hard , I don't really disagree with what Bird said and most of it is Truthful , but I dunno if Larry should have went out and said it but in a way I am glad he did.

SycamoreKen
06-10-2004, 06:22 PM
I think it is a big deal. If we dismiss it and think like some people on the forum "oh its no big deal". Then in everyone's mind, you can make racist comments in public, and it ok... it no big deal. People say, stuff he said was true.. It's not. Kirilenko (#4 in steals, #3 in blocks). Ginobili (#7 in steals). There are white guys that can play D. To lump them in with white guys that can't play D is so racist and isn't even funny. The people who are so insensitive and say that PC is overrated are the type of people that perpetuate racism. "So he said something racist, its true, get over it, big deal.." Thats why racism is a sensitive issue. Some people still don't get it.

Stereotyping is wrong, if its by race, then it becomes a form of racism. There are all sorts of race stereotypes out there and 99.9% of them are wrong, because there are always exceptions. Alot of it is funny to some, but the race that is being stereotyped doesn't think its funny. Since Larry stereotyped by race, he really hurt his reputation. What if you replace "whites" in his statements with "mexicans", don't you think the Mexican community would be pissed. Saying that you are offended or disrespected when a member of a race is guarding you is a blatantly racist comment.

Racist has become such a loaded word that to brand someone with it over such a trivial comment is questionable. Was it a dumb comment? I'll give you that. Did it hurt his reputation? I doubt it. I could care less that getting gaured by a white guy got his panties in a bunch. If you don't know Bird well enough to take have of what he says with a grain of salt then do some reading. I would put him with the likes of Barkley when he spouts his beliefs on certain topics.

As for this assertion that the NBA could use more white SUPERSTARS, not just players, he is correct and I would add the adjective American behind white in that statement. The foriegn players will never be as mainstream as the US players, so they really don't fit the need. Also, none of the players listed is really at the superstar level yet.

Does the league NEED white american superstars to succeed? No. It needs players that are smart enough to stay out of trouble and keep their heads on straight. Marketing the "good guys" wouldn't hurt either.

LAPacer
06-10-2004, 06:37 PM
Racist has become such a loaded word that to brand someone with it over such a trivial comment is questionable. Was it a dumb comment? I'll give you that.

I like Bird, and no I don't think he is a racist. He made a racist comment, thats it. In my post I said to group white guys together and say they can't play D is racist, because grouping by race is a racist thing to do.

"Why group ball players by race in the first place?"
-Henry Bibby




Did it hurt his reputation? I doubt it.


Bird has been and will continue to be great for basketball. Will he be looked at as a dumbass. No, I seriously doubt it. He is too great of a man. But didn't Reggie White hurt his reputation a bit when he made racist comments. Larry Bird is no Reggie White, in my opinion he is hundreds of times more likeable, but I think this hurts his almost perfect image a little.



As for this assertion that the NBA could use more white SUPERSTARS, not just players, he is correct and I would add the adjective American behind white in that statement. The foriegn players will never be as mainstream as the US players, so they really don't fit the need.


I agree, the NBA could make more money by satisfying the largest demographic of NBA fans. It doesn't make the NBA a better place, just a more marketable place.


Also, none of the players listed is really at the superstar level yet.


I don't think Kirilenko and Ginobili are superstars, I was just pointing out they are very good at D.

Kegboy
06-10-2004, 09:14 PM
The only time I even pay attention to white players is this. Whenever a white guy comes out of the draft, or starts to make a name for himself, he's always compared to another white player. Peja or Dirk's the new Bird, Jason Williams' the new Pistol Pete, etc. Wally was compared to Chris Mullin coming out of school, and I just read a scouting report on Luke Jackson calling him "a more athletic Wally Sczerbiak." Now, I don't watch as much college ball as I used to, but I've seen enough of Jackson to know that's an assinine comparison.

There's got to be better comparisons, even if you always have to preface a white player being a "less athletic" version of some black player. For instance, I've always seen alot of similarities between Austin and Marcus Fizer, but you never hear anyone say that, cause they've got a different skin color. :unimpressed:



Great, great point, that bugs me too.

On a sorta related note, I remember Wally Szczerbiak complaining about this when he was continuously compared to white players, and he said his game is most similar to Glen Rice's, but he never gets that comparison because he's black.

You're right. I'd completely forgotten about that.

Back on topic, I heard Rick Barry talk about Larry on SportsBash yesterday, and he was really pissed, mostly because he knew he was one of the guys Larry was talking about, since Rick guarded him late in his career. Rick said Larry was one to talk, cause Barry "lit him up like a Christmas tree", which he said, maybe makes Larry's point, since Bird's white too. "Maybe I should have felt disrepected cause he was guarding me." :chuckle:

brichard
06-10-2004, 10:53 PM
Now, if you won't hire a white player on your team simply b/c he is white without giving him the same opportunities as somebody else... that is where discrimination comes in. Discrimination is wrong, and stereotyping is not. And if you think stereotyping is wrong I have some news for you... we all do it. You wouldn't go to a wedding in overalls unless you wanted to be stereotyped as a backward hillbilly. You would wear a suit.

How Larry said what he said was bad. And more importantly, why he said what he said in a public forum is just plain puzzling. However, I don't think he was condoning discrimination at all here.

great post, i agree with most of it, but your conclusion bugs me.

stereotyping is ok, but discrimination isn't? well, so larry stereotypes, but presumably he can tell that jeff foster, despite his being white, is actually quite athletic and a good defender. so good for larry, he can see beyond stereotypes.

but how about the average joe coach, or joe manager, he hears, hey larry bird says white guys can't defend, it must be true coming from him, let's get this kid instead.

that's why stereotyping is wrong too, because not everyone can see beyond stereotypes, and having a public figure like bird say it just reinforces the stereotype.

beyond the rightness or wrongness of the statement, can we all agree that saying it at all was assinine?

First of all... I do agree on the assinine thing.

The stereotype/discrimination point was actually made to my brother in his MBA class. And before some of you come in and assume it is a hick college in Indiana... it came from the conservative hotbed of... MASSACHUSSETTS! (Spelling?) My brother attended UMASS and the teacher made the statement that stereotyping is not wrong but discrimination is.

If we say that stereotyping, which is making some assumptions based on nationality, geography, income, etc. is wrong, then what we are saying is that marketing is wrong. There is a section of the West side of Indianapolis that is heavily populated with the Hispanic community. I see different stores popping up that are targeting that audience. They aren't the same stores I see in other parts of town... say Fishers. Is it wrong? I don't think it is wrong, you just make logical assumptions based on the psychographics.

I don't have the statistics on how much more NBA coverage is in China b/c of Yao Ming, but I would guess that it has improved. There are certain people that are going to follow the NBA now simply b/c of his ethnicity. I don't think it is wrong, it is simply factual.

Insurance companies stereotype. If you are a certain age you get "X" rate, if you are married you get "Y" rate, you get discounts for good grades etc.

I just think it is simply not true to say that all stereotyping is bad. Discrimination, which is not giving a person a fair shake based on any psychographic information is wrong.

brichard
06-10-2004, 11:13 PM
2. Compliment- Larry was simply saying that he acknowledged that black players were the creme de la creme of the league. He considered himself to be at the top... and he wanted to be guarded by the top. No matter how it came out, this was simply a compliment to black athletes. Granted it was delivered with as much smoothness as Jimmy "The Greek"...


How could the dip hick be at the top when HE HIMSELF said that only blacks were worthy???????? Cripes, he's too dim to know he just put himself down.

Right, so if I say no black baseball player could hold Babe Ruth's jock, I'm just complimenting WHITE players and not putting down those "lower" blacks.

PERFECT rationalization :laugh:

I've re-read this a few times and I still don't get what you are saying.

Have you seen the movie "White men can't jump?" There is a part where Woody Harrelson considers himself the exception to the rule. He doesn't want to lumped in with the stereotypical unathletic, not be able to jump white guy.

During Larry's time most of the best defenders were black. He considered himself one of the most talented offensive players in the league. By putting a white person on him, he felt they weren't respecting his game. He was an "A" offensive player getting in most cases a "B" or "C" defender.

Now if I were a black athlete who played during Larry Bird's career, how would I feel about what he just said? He just told me that if I was black, there was a greater than average chance he considered me to be a good defender. My question to you is this, "How is that offensive to blacks?" If anything, it should be offensive to white defenders at that time.

Most of the time in life you can get by saying derogatory things about your own race. See Chris Rock for several examples. What you can't get a pass on is saying something derogatory about another race. The odd thing is, even if you say something complimentary about another race... as we see here, you can still be perceived in a negative light.

Bball
06-10-2004, 11:59 PM
m

---

THAT being said - -snip-. .. also .. say magic had said that he didnt like it when a white guy guarded him cuz it was disrespectful? what would people say about that?

That's where the double standard comes into play. People would say nothing or at the least it would be a minor issue on a few forums for a day.... Probably not the feature story on ESPN or used in the advertising clips.

JMHO...
-Bball

ABADays
06-11-2004, 08:35 AM
A member of the Black Coaches Association located here in Indianapolis was interviewed on TV yesterday. He couldn't understand what the big deal was. Enough said.

Hicks
06-11-2004, 12:13 PM
A member of the Black Coaches Association located here in Indianapolis was interviewed on TV yesterday. He couldn't understand what the big deal was. Enough said.

See, I don't like that. That's like saying "well if an Af. American says it's not bad then we're all OK".

Unclebuck
06-11-2004, 12:51 PM
I just don't think what Bird said was a big deal.

if you watched the whole program, and it was well worth it, the part everyone is talking about was the least interesting thing said during the whole hour interview. Bird was the guy who was cracking a lot of jokes the whole time.

Great interview though. I am sure they will replay it.

Interesting to hear that Magic, Bird and Carlisle has dinner the night before.

Hicks
06-11-2004, 01:22 PM
UB's right, I watched the whole thing too and it was pretty good.

LAPacer
06-11-2004, 01:33 PM
I saw it and it was pretty good.. entertaining. I just don't get why he had to bring up race. Carmello finishing his sentence and saying "disrespect" was annoying. I like how Lebron carries himself at the age of 19. They were clowning Peja too, until Bird gave Peja props for his hard work.

ABADays
06-11-2004, 01:44 PM
A member of the Black Coaches Association located here in Indianapolis was interviewed on TV yesterday. He couldn't understand what the big deal was. Enough said.

See, I don't like that. That's like saying "well if an Af. American says it's not bad then we're all OK".

Merely adding support to the belief IT WASN'T A BIG DEAL!

Hicks
06-11-2004, 02:23 PM
A member of the Black Coaches Association located here in Indianapolis was interviewed on TV yesterday. He couldn't understand what the big deal was. Enough said.

See, I don't like that. That's like saying "well if an Af. American says it's not bad then we're all OK".

Merely adding support to the belief IT WASN'T A BIG DEAL!

I agree it isn't a big deal.

Suaveness
06-11-2004, 02:28 PM
I haven't commented on this yet, but all I have to say is that this is being blown WAY out of proportion. It is not a big deal. He is merely commenting on the situation of the league.

brichard
06-11-2004, 09:30 PM
m

---

THAT being said - -snip-. .. also .. say magic had said that he didnt like it when a white guy guarded him cuz it was disrespectful? what would people say about that?

That's where the double standard comes into play. People would say nothing or at the least it would be a minor issue on a few forums for a day.... Probably not the feature story on ESPN or used in the advertising clips.

JMHO...
-Bball

Bull F'ing ****. That's ridiculous and a total lie.

It would get MORE play, as did Isiah's ramblings, because it's a black saying it about whites.

So that would be even more "horrendous".

If Magic said the same thing it would be much worse ala Isiah b/c it would involve a disparaging remark about another race. If you say something bad about a race that isn't your own, it would definitely be a bigger deal.

Self-depricating remarks about yourself or your race are usually not offensive to most people.

And sometimes, depending how they are delivered, you can even have a little fun with another race. My brother has a friend who is African American and wants to have a show called "The Funny things white people do." Among the things he notes:

1. All White People keep their trash under the kitchen sink.
2. No brother would ever have the "Chicken Dance" at their wedding... etc.

I am caucasian, the race he is having some fun with at my expense, and I'm not offended at all. I think it is funny b/c I know he doesn't discriminate. He is simply having some fun with some white stereotypes.

You have to look at the words people say, but it is equally important to examine their intent and their author's meaning.

Trace
06-11-2004, 11:21 PM
I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American.


Gee, how un-PC can you get? Tell us Larry, what does being American have to do with being a great athlete? Non-American Africans from all over the world are going to be fuming over that comment. ;)

:laugh:

kerosene
06-12-2004, 02:27 AM
Add another log to the fire.