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View Full Version : Heywood's FLAGRANT foul on Lebron



Jonathan
04-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Do you think he will be suspended for the next playoff game?

Should he be suspended for the next playoff game?

I think he will be suspended, I do not think he should be suspended. If that foul was on D West or Wally he would not be suspended but since it was on King Lebron he will.

Hicks
04-22-2008, 11:23 AM
It was a legit flagrant 2 because that could easily have hurt James (lands on his wrist, lands on his hip, flat on his back) and was not a play for the ball. I think he gets a game.

Speed
04-22-2008, 11:46 AM
I think they need to and I think they need to send a message, that series is really close to getting out of hand.

Anytime you take a guy out when he's up in the air (undercutish) it needs to be a tough penality imo. It really could jeopardize a guys career.

JayRedd
04-22-2008, 11:49 AM
I love it.

The pussyfication the NBA has undergone has been horrible. We need more McHale/Rambis clotheslines...not less. Between that and the David West face slap, this Playoffs are starting off nice and gully.

But yeah, Haywood should probably be suspended. That was pretty bad.

Unclebuck
04-22-2008, 11:53 AM
I think he should be suspended for 1game.

Pushing someone when they are in the air is the worst type of flagrant foul someone can commit, because the person in the air has no way to protect himself. This type of foul is much worse then the typical flagrant which is normally when the defender comes down hard on the offensive player.

And keep in mind I am one who thinks flagrant fouls are called way to often

tdubb03
04-22-2008, 12:27 PM
He will be suspended, but I do not agree with it. I don't even think it was flagrant.

AesopRockOn
04-22-2008, 12:28 PM
The way the Wizards have played, it's much more of a punishment to allow him to play.

As for playoff suspensions, I think there's way too much emphasis on POTENTIAL injury on plays like that one. Intentional fouls to make players shoot free throws have been around much longer than the refs passing judgment on whether a player could have incurred injury. That are tons of plays during games when a player being fouled could get hurt if he lands wrong. But the thing is, these guys have more experience with landing with balance to avoid injury than Tony Hawk. The refs and the David Stern (that's right, he's no longer human) should not have some sort of moral obligation to punish players for the accidental injury of others. They probably want to protect Lebron; can't do anything about that. Then again, we're talking about the most physically stupendous player maybe ever. How much protection does the guy need?

By the way, everyone saying that this is the worst type of flagrant are either not being creative enough or are being too general. Obviously, if Haywood had knocked Lebron in the head (temple area) and left him unconscious while falling, there's a harsh penalty. TJ Ford driving the lane and getting knocked out while Dwight Howard goes for a block will also have more serious repercussions.

The point is: on this particular play, there was a very low chance of injury. When you're talking about playoff suspensions, you need to look at things on a case-by-case basis instead of just generalizing that player-hit-in-air = one game suspension. I personally don't care because the Wizards have sucked.

Swingman
04-22-2008, 01:29 PM
The way the Wizards have played, it's much more of a punishment to allow him to play.

As for playoff suspensions, I think there's way too much emphasis on POTENTIAL injury on plays like that one. Intentional fouls to make players shoot free throws have been around much longer than the refs passing judgment on whether a player could have incurred injury. That are tons of plays during games when a player being fouled could get hurt if he lands wrong. But the thing is, these guys have more experience with landing with balance to avoid injury than Tony Hawk. The refs and the David Stern (that's right, he's no longer human) should not have some sort of moral obligation to punish players for the accidental injury of others. They probably want to protect Lebron; can't do anything about that. Then again, we're talking about the most physically stupendous player maybe ever. How much protection does the guy need?

By the way, everyone saying that this is the worst type of flagrant are either not being creative enough or are being too general. Obviously, if Haywood had knocked Lebron in the head (temple area) and left him unconscious while falling, there's a harsh penalty. TJ Ford driving the lane and getting knocked out while Dwight Howard goes for a block will also have more serious repercussions.

The point is: on this particular play, there was a very low chance of injury. When you're talking about playoff suspensions, you need to look at things on a case-by-case basis instead of just generalizing that player-hit-in-air = one game suspension. I personally don't care because the Wizards have sucked.

You can't be serious. Players shouldn't be out to injury others players regardless of their ability to resist injury. If they're not making a play on the ball, then it should be a flagrant fall.

JayRedd
04-22-2008, 01:36 PM
Injury has nothing to do with it.

Intent is the key.

Horford damn-near paralyzed TJ and that wasn't even flagrant, IMO. He just miscalculated speed and space.

Haywood pushed a dude in midair just to push him, and wasn't going for the ball by any stretch of the imagination.

Now morally, I have no problem with what Haywood did mind you (you gotta beat up the stars to slow em down, aka, Jordan Rules), but it's still clearly not a basketball-related play.

The intent was to push a guy in the air.

duke dynamite
04-22-2008, 01:37 PM
For a second there, I thought this was a joke.

Speed
04-22-2008, 01:45 PM
Anyone who has ever been undercut realizes the seriousness of it.

jeffg-body
04-22-2008, 01:47 PM
I wonder if there is going to be any retaliation like in baseball where someone gets thrown at and the next inning the same happens from the other team. I can see Arenas driving to the basket and Ben Wallace giving him a "Karl Malone elbow".

D23
04-22-2008, 04:33 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3359141

Report from ESPN is that Haywood will NOT be suspended for the foul against LeBron. Amazing how Danny got suspended for that fluke high elbow but something this malicious (against one of the league's top 2 superstars nonetheless) goes without further punishment. :confused: I think someone else said it best by saying Danny was guilty of PWP (playing while Pacer).

AesopRockOn
04-22-2008, 04:47 PM
You can't be serious. Players shouldn't be out to injury others players regardless of their ability to resist injury.

Who said anybody was out to injury anybody? The reason anyone fouls is to stop baskets from being made. You totally missed the point of my post, which just used the Haywood-Lebron situation as an example.


If they're not making a play on the ball, then it should be a flagrant foul in circumstances where a player is in the air, or hit with too much force, or in an obviously malicious fashion, etc.

Fixed



Intent is the key.
The intent was to push a guy in the air.

Exactly. And that's a flagrant foul (maybe a flagrant two, which isn't as well defined). It's pretty well defined. What's not defined is what warrants a suspension that takes a playoff game (or in Haywood's case about one and a half) away from a player. Everyone was talking about what COULD have happened; something could have. But that is not much of a way to decide who gets suspended and for how long.

Plus, if what Haywood did was so bad in the eyes of Lebron's teammates, Haywood's going to be gotten back. That's team sports.


Note: Apparently the half game was enough: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3359141

Ownagedood
04-22-2008, 04:50 PM
Ya, he didn't get suspended.. I think that if Bron was more banged up then they would have.. I think they just looked at the outcome and decided Bron wasn't really hurt, so kicking Heywood out of the current game was enough punishment.

P.S. Has anyone noticed the resemblance that Bron has taking when it comes to MJ.. Just like Jordan used to..Bron is stepping up and getting rough with the guys that talked crap about him and then showing with his game how wrong they are.. I love that in a guy. He's a superstar. He was also man enough and in control enough to walk away from Heywood instead of lose his cool and beat the crap outta him.

AesopRockOn
04-22-2008, 05:00 PM
P.S. Has anyone noticed the resemblance that Bron has taking when it comes to MJ.. Just like Jordan used to..Bron is stepping up and getting rough with the guys that talked crap about him and then showing with his game how wrong they are.. I love that in a guy. He's a superstar. He was also man enough and in control enough to walk away from Heywood instead of lose his cool and beat the crap outta him.

Ha, not trying to pick on you (I had a Lit professor who used the Lebron-Jordan comparison to demonstrate allusion/homage in writing :rolleyes:), but this has absolutely no relevance until Lebron does some real damage against a team with real championship qualities (this year: Lakers, Spurs, Suns, Celtics). Lebron still doesn't have (or even come near to) the complete composure and confidence that Jordan had when I grew up watching him. And, for the record, MJ talked more trash than anybody; but no one could do anything about it.

All that hate said ;), there's no reason to think he won't reach that type of level. However, the closest we have to his Airness is Kobe right now. In the same vein, the best in ability/athleticism as well.

Ownagedood
04-22-2008, 05:15 PM
Ha, not trying to pick on you (I had a Lit professor who used the Lebron-Jordan comparison to demonstrate allusion/homage in writing :rolleyes:), but this has absolutely no relevance until Lebron does some real damage against a team with real championship qualities (this year: Lakers, Spurs, Suns, Celtics). Lebron still doesn't have (or even come near to) the complete composure and confidence that Jordan had when I grew up watching him. And, for the record, MJ talked more trash than anybody; but no one could do anything about it.

All that hate said ;), there's no reason to think he won't reach that type of level. However, the closest we have to his Airness is Kobe right now. In the same vein, the best in ability/athleticism as well.
Ya, I agree with you.. Just saying.. His future seems an awful like someone else we know.. :devil:

andreialta
04-23-2008, 02:01 AM
well he wasnt suspendeD rite?

DisplacedKnick
04-23-2008, 07:04 AM
Ha, not trying to pick on you (I had a Lit professor who used the Lebron-Jordan comparison to demonstrate allusion/homage in writing :rolleyes:), but this has absolutely no relevance until Lebron does some real damage against a team with real championship qualities

Yeah - if, for example, he scored 25 straight points in a critical playoff game against a team which has won a title like Detroit to help lead the Cavs back from being down 2-0 in a conference finals.

Something like that might actually have some meaning.

Too bad he's never done it.

spreedom
04-23-2008, 10:54 AM
The more I watch that foul, the less serious it really looks... to me, I think that's just a good hard playoff foul that is only borderline flagrant, especially considering no one was at all injured. Good call on not suspending Haywood there.

heywoode
04-23-2008, 11:11 AM
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I didn't do a damn thing to anybody.

Hicks
04-23-2008, 11:13 AM
The more I watch that foul, the less serious it really looks... to me, I think that's just a good hard playoff foul that is only borderline flagrant, especially considering no one was at all injured. Good call on not suspending Haywood there.

I think it looks less serious to some because it didn't end badly. However, the problem is that it serves up the distinct possibility of something going wrong. It's a little bit like "well, he cut that guy's breaks, but since he managed to stop the car safely it's not so bad".

Unclebuck
04-23-2008, 11:27 AM
The foul was the type of foul that could have caused really serious injury - most flagrant fouls have no real possibility of causing a serious injury. That is the difference here. But maybe because it didn't cause injury - the NBA decided not to suspend.

let me put it this way, if I was abe to play basketball and jump like Lebron - what Heywood did was about the worst thing a player could do.

Ownagedood
04-23-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I didn't do a damn thing to anybody.
Haha, nice.

JayRedd
04-23-2008, 11:39 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3359141

Report from ESPN is that Haywood will NOT be suspended for the foul against LeBron. Amazing how Danny got suspended for that fluke high elbow but something this malicious (against one of the league's top 2 superstars nonetheless) goes without further punishment. :confused: I think someone else said it best by saying Danny was guilty of PWP (playing while Pacer).

Danny clearly elbowed Nocioni in the face.

And it was awesome.

Kstat
04-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Heywood already got his 1 game. Suspending him again would have made it pretty much a 2 game penalty.

AesopRockOn
04-23-2008, 05:52 PM
Yeah - if, for example, he scored 25 straight points in a critical playoff game against a team which has won a title like Detroit to help lead the Cavs back from being down 2-0 in a conference finals.

Something like that might actually have some meaning.

Too bad he's never done it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/series?series=clesas :laugh:

Robertmto
04-23-2008, 06:29 PM
It was just a decent flop by James. Haywood didn't even push him hard