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04-21-2008, 11:55 AM
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<!--PRINTER FRIENDLY ARTICLE--> April 21, 2008

Colts player facing charges after arrest outside night club
Star report
Indianapolis Colts running back Kenton Keith was arrested early Sunday after refusing to leave a Westside nightclub, according to a police report.
The incident occurred at the Cloud 9 nightclub, 5150 West 38th St., just after 3 a.m.

During the episode Keith kept repeating "I am a Colts player," police said.
Police officers and security guards were attempting to clear the parking lot after the club closed when they noticed that Keith, 27, 6700 block of Echo Lane, and other men with him were not leaving. According to the police report, the men ignored several requests to leave and began to dance, yell and lean into cars in the parking lot.
After telling the men several times to leave, police told them to put their hands on a vehicle. Keith initially refused and tried to pull out a cell phone to record the incident, according to the report. He eventually was handcuffed while officers sorted things out.
According to the police report, Keith "kept hollering that he was a Colts player, he wasn't doing anything wrong, and he would leave when he was ready."
Keith was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct, resisting law enforcement, public intoxication and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, as another man with him was 19.

He was released Sunday after posting a $1,000 bond.

Formal charges have not yet been filed. Prosecutors were granted a 72-hour continuance and have until Wednesday to file charges against Keith, said Matt Symons, spokesman for Prosecutor Carl Brizzi.
The other people with Keith were released after cooperating with police.
Keith has been with the Colts for one season, when he rushed 121 times for 533 yards and scored four touchdowns.
He scored 29 touchdowns during the previous four seasons in the Canadian Football League.
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plucktitleTagdiv.innerText || plucktitleTagdiv.textContent : "unknown"; if (titleTag != "") s_pageName=pluckcategory + "-" + titleTag; else s_pageName=pluckcategory + "-unknown"; } </script><script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript"> <!-- s.server="publicus" if(typeof s_pageName!='undefined'){s.pageName=s_pageName}els e{s.pageName="star/local_news/crime/Colts player facing charges after arrest outside night club/20080421"} if(typeof s_channel!='undefined'){s.channel=s_channel} if(typeof s_pageType!='undefined'){s.pageType=s_pageType} if(typeof s_prop1!='undefined'){s.prop1=s_prop1}else{s.prop1 ="star"} if(typeof s_prop2!='undefined'){s.prop2=s_prop2}else{s.prop2 ="star/local_news"} if(typeof s_prop3!='undefined'){s.prop3=s_prop3}else{s.prop3 ="star/local_news/crime/printart"} if(typeof s_prop4!='undefined'){s.prop4=s_prop4}else{s.prop4 =""} if(typeof s_prop5!='undefined'){s.prop5=s_prop5}else{s.prop5 =""} if(typeof s_prop6!='undefined'){s.prop6=s_prop6}else{s.prop6 ="news"} if(typeof s_prop7!='undefined'){s.prop7=s_prop7}else{s.prop7 ="local_news"} if(typeof s_prop8!='undefined'){s.prop8=s_prop8}else{s.prop8 =""} s.prop23=document.location s.prop16='article' s.prop25="Indianapolis:indystar" if(typeof rsinetsegs!='undefined'){s.prop48=(rsinetsegs.join ('|')).replace(/J06575_/g,'');}else{s.prop48='no segment';} s.prop50=s_prop50; if(s.prop7){s.eVar5=s.prop7;} if(s.prop25){s.eVar1=s.prop25;} /************* DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE ! **************/ var s_code=s.t();if(s_code)document.write(s_code)//--></script><script language="JavaScript"><!-- if(navigator.appVersion.indexOf('MSIE')>=0)document.write(unescape('%3C')+'\!-'+'-') //--></script><noscript>http://gpaper138.112.2O7.net/b/ss/gpaper138,gntbcstglobal/1/H.3--NS/0</noscript>The reason I post this on the Pacers board is to show that even the best run franchises cannot babysit grown men. So this isn't limited to the Pacers. The COLTS, by and large, are considered a good group of guys, but you can't always tell what guys will do when given money and free time. The one thing I'll say is that since NFL contracts aren't guaranteed, they have greater liberty to simply release these guys, than do NBA teams. But I want to watch and contrast how the COLTS deal with this nonsense, as opposed to the Pacers. Also, I think the NBA would change their culture if David Stern would crack down in the NBA like Goodell is doing in the NFL.</sitedomain></cobrandsitedomain></s_suiteid_default>

d_c
04-21-2008, 12:43 PM
The NFL has a bigger problem with off the field incidents than the NBA. Not even close. Rae Carruth, Darrell Russell, Pacman Jones, etc..not to mention far more rampant steroid use.

To be fair, the NFL also has about 4 times as many players, so the chances of an incident happening are greater by sheer probability.

As far as Roger Goodell cracking down, Pacman Jones looks like he's going to get reinstated. What would this board's reaction be if Pacman Jones played in the NBA and Stern allowed him to keep playing after his string of incidents?

Slick Pinkham
04-21-2008, 02:01 PM
I wonder how Tinsley got ahold of a fake ID showing he was Kenton Keith?

dastardly.


;)

grace
04-21-2008, 03:29 PM
Well, Pacman got suspended for a year. Considering the law hasn't really done anything to him I'm not sure what else Goodell is supposed to do. Of course when he gets reinstated and then he gets in trouble again that's a whole other story.

As for Keith maybe the Raiders would like another running back. Idiot.

Naptown_Seth
04-21-2008, 03:55 PM
I wonder how Tinsley got ahold of a fake ID showing he was Kenton Keith?

dastardly.


;)
WRONG!!!!



In truth I think we've finally tracked down the guys that were waiting in the parking lot for Tinsley and then tried to gun him down at the Conrad.
IYF :p



But seriously, given what happened to Tins and the time of night it was when that went down, wouldn't it seem like Cloud 9's parking lot at 3 AM might not be the safest place to be, period?

Of course what am I thinking, it's not like black on black crime is a problem or anything. I'm sure he was perfectly safe.

idioteque
04-21-2008, 04:04 PM
You would think that athletes would learn to stay away from Cloud 9.

Grown men cannot be babysitted, I agree with that. But if something like this does occur, in most cases the player needs to be sent someone else, bought out, or cut. Kenton Keith has been known for being a head case already so my best guess is that he won't be back.

ABADays
04-21-2008, 04:16 PM
We are talking about ex-Colt Kenton Keith right? :p A guy that can't catch critical passes - well any passes - becomes an ex with stupidity like this.

Roaming Gnome
04-21-2008, 04:57 PM
The one thing I'll say is that since NFL contracts aren't guaranteed, they have greater liberty to simply release these guys, than do NBA teams.

Eventhough the NFL doesn't have guaranteed contracts, there is a penalty for just cutting players outright, when a signing bonus is used to sign a player.

Most of us that whine about NBA contracts don't usually fully look at the NFL contract. Signing bonuses are almost always used to sign players. Signing bonuses are factored into the NFL's hard cap over the life of the contract. Here's the rub that most of you don't acknowledge when you say, "just cut a guy like they do in the NFL..."

The TOTAL amount of the signing bonus comes off the cap the year that player is cut!!!! A guy like the Colts Kenton Keith will not be a hard hit against the cap if/when they cut him. I don't think Keith even had more then a one year contract. He may just not be asked back for next season. Say a guy with a sizable contract gets caught up in some trouble. I can guaran"damn"tee you that he won't be cut outright considering how the Colts are always tight to the cap.

If the NFL had a "soft cap" like the NBA, this wouldn't be a big deal, but with a "Hard Cap" this is an enourmous consideration since most NFL teams are right up to that hard cap after signing rookies and resigning their own needs via re-signing their own or F.A.'s (Remember, there isn't a rookie scale in the NFL...like in the NBA. Top drafted NFL rookies come right out earning veteran contracts...or... HOLD OUT IF THEY DON'T!!!!!!).

For those that don't know, a Hard Cap means, if you are not under this number, your team doesn't take the field!!! This is requirement. Remember when T.O. was giving the Eagles all that trouble? The Eagles would have loved to just cut him out right, but they ended up having to pay him to stay away/home because the Eagles wouldn't have been able to resign any of their own F.A's that year if they would have just simply cut T.O.

duke dynamite
04-21-2008, 05:02 PM
This is a very arguable comparison. Everything I've heard up until my post is good, except the fact that athletes will do whatever they want regardless of the rules/guidelines in place by their teams TB.

As much as a league is going to "crack down" on behavior like this, the more that the players are going to disobey. They're going to want to have fun, they're going to do it. It's up to them about the desicions they make. The leagues are doing everything they can.

RomanGabriel
04-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Given the current atmosphere, the big difference here is that a Pacer wouldn't have had the opportunity to repeatedly state "I'm a Pacer" - the cops would have shot him the first time he said it.

duke dynamite
04-21-2008, 05:57 PM
Given the current atmosphere, the big difference here is that a Pacer wouldn't have had the opportunity to repeatedly state "I'm a Pacer" - the cops would have shot him the first time he said it.
That is considered police brutality.

BillS
04-21-2008, 08:29 PM
Given the current atmosphere, the big difference here is that a Pacer wouldn't have had the opportunity to repeatedly state "I'm a Pacer" - the cops would have shot him the first time he said it.


That is considered <b>justifiable use of force</b>.

fixed.

duke dynamite
04-21-2008, 08:44 PM
fixed.
I doubt that.

BlueNGold
04-21-2008, 09:34 PM
<NOSCRIPT>http://gpaper138.112.2O7.net/b/ss/gpaper138,gntbcstglobal/1/H.3--NS/0</NOSCRIPT>The reason I post this on the Pacers board is to show that even the best run franchises cannot babysit grown men. So this isn't limited to the Pacers. The COLTS, by and large, are considered a good group of guys, but you can't always tell what guys will do when given money and free time. The one thing I'll say is that since NFL contracts aren't guaranteed, they have greater liberty to simply release these guys, than do NBA teams. But I want to watch and contrast how the COLTS deal with this nonsense, as opposed to the Pacers. Also, I think the NBA would change their culture if David Stern would crack down in the NBA like Goodell is doing in the NFL.</SITEDOMAIN></COBRANDSITEDOMAIN></S_SUITEID_DEFAULT>

Yes, it's difficult to babysit grown men making millions. ...and yes, the Colts have a few warts as we all do. However, I would not go there (comparing the Pacers in any way with the Colts on this topic).

First, the Colts have 80 players. Let's say the Pacers generated 10 incidents in the last 5 years, the Colts would have to have had 50 similar incidents to be reach some semblance of an equivalent number. Instead, the Colts had LESS incidents clearly by a large margin. Second, the most talented players including several in the starting 5 have represented the bulk of the incidents on the Pacers. The backups on the Colts have been the bad apples. BTW it's a shame John Edwards and Saras didn't rack some of the violations. If that had happened, this team would probably be playing in the playoffs right now.

As for how the Colts have responded as you say, they almost immediately cut their last backup running back for a DUI...barely illegal BAC....a backup that was quite valuable in the championship run. In addition, I never heard Dungy say "we don't want no milk drinkers" on the Colts. Nah, it's not even close.

BlueNGold
04-21-2008, 09:41 PM
Given the current atmosphere, the big difference here is that a Pacer wouldn't have had the opportunity to repeatedly state "I'm a Pacer" - the cops would have shot him the first time he said it.

Well...our contract situation does need some help. ;)

Actually, I think the Pacers are literally *living* proof...a true test case...for lack of police brutality.


Hmmm. I think I'll back away from further discussing this topic...

Roaming Gnome
05-02-2008, 05:10 PM
With Marvin Harrison being investigated for a shooting, you know that I had to :bump: bumpity bump bump this thread!
The discussion on the Colts board here at Pacers Digest

I just wonder if Indy fans are going to get on their high horse, no pun... since 2 incidents have happened within days of each other.

grace
05-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Well looking on the bright side it didn't happen at Club Rio.

Slick Pinkham
05-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Guns don't shoot people, Pacers and Colts shoot people

Eindar
05-03-2008, 06:21 AM
This might be the best week of PR the Pacers have ever had.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 06:23 AM
This might be the best week of PR the Pacers have ever had.
Fantastic. :laugh:

BlueNGold
05-03-2008, 08:36 AM
With Marvin Harrison being investigated for a shooting, you know that I had to :bump: bumpity bump bump this thread!
The discussion on the Colts board here at Pacers Digest

I just wonder if Indy fans are going to get on their high horse, no pun... since 2 incidents have happened within days of each other.

I'm not much into the Colts, but even if I were I would not defend this. However, all you can do is look at the truth.

Prior to this incident, unlike the Pacers, their stars had a clean record. That might be over now, but this is new news. They are not immune to making dumb mistakes and hurting their franchise as well. I suppose Marvin should have taken notes from Peyton and spent his money on a worthy cause like a children’s hospital rather than a bar.

BTW, if the Colts want to emulate the Pacers, let's see if that billion dollar stadium ever becomes full. One Peyton Manning injury and....well you know...

duke dynamite
05-03-2008, 09:25 AM
You would think that athletes would learn to stay away from Cloud 9.

Grown men cannot be babysitted, I agree with that. But if something like this does occur, in most cases the player needs to be sent someone else, bought out, or cut. Kenton Keith has been known for being a head case already so my best guess is that he won't be back.
Since he's been in Canada all that time until last season I bet he thought it was a Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

And on the babysitting, I brought that point up a while back. These players can't be watched all the time. They are going to to out and have fun, regardless of what the teams or the league imposes them not to do.

I really think that it is up to the player to conduct themselves in a manner that will not hinder or negatively impact their career. That has been said a million times on this board.

I will never compare the Colts and the Pacers together. They are in totally different worlds outside the aspect of professional sports, but they do need to choose their fun time wisely. Stay home and play Guitar Hero or something!!! :p

mb221
05-03-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm not much into the Colts, but even if I were I would not defend this. However, all you can do is look at the truth.

Prior to this incident, unlike the Pacers, their stars had a clean record. That might be over now, but this is new news. They are not immune to making dumb mistakes and hurting their franchise as well. I suppose Marvin should have taken notes from Peyton and spent his money on a worthy cause like a children’s hospital rather than a bar.


That paragraph is indeed NOT the truth. During the 2005 NFL Pro Bowl, Marvin Harrison had a run in with a couple of autograph seeking kids where he was accused of putting a choke hold on one of them. The case was eventually dismissed, but something did indeed happen there. I guess that isn't necessarily as criminal as a shooting, but an alleged assault on a kid would certainly seem to me that his record was in fact not clean. (edit: It is actually mentioned at the end of the Harrison article on espn.com)

duke dynamite
05-03-2008, 12:26 PM
If it was dismissed that necessarily didn't happen.

There is a possibility that it did, but for it to be dismissed he has a clean legal record.

Just because you've been in court or accused of something doesn't mean you have a bad record.

BlueNGold
05-03-2008, 02:02 PM
If it was dismissed that necessarily didn't happen.

There is a possibility that it did, but for it to be dismissed he has a clean legal record.

Just because you've been in court or accused of something doesn't mean you have a bad record.

Yes. Marvin got a pass on the rumored choking because it was the first allegation and nothing came of it. The truth is, he had a clean slate for a reason. He's played in this town for many years and earned that pass.
While Harrison deposited many times into his large Colt's account over many years, those Pacer clowns were bouncing their checks far too early and far too often.

This is not just about one Pacer....this is a cultural, mental or maturity issue with the (past) team itself...and why there's still no comparison. ...whether it be at Cloud 9, Club Rio, the Conrad, the 8 second saloon or the Palace of Auburn Hills...hanging out with murders, smashing cameras, smashing up the lockerroom...getting caught with dope and failing drug tests...etc, etc, etc, etc....the overdraft charges have been building up.

Now, this incident would have made more impact if it had happened in Indy, but it didn't. That's the way it goes, so it has a better shot at blowing over. However, Marvin has no more rope left and the Colts don't have much more...but the Colts, even with this incident, are roughly average in the world of sports for off field incidents considering the last 5-10 years. So, until there's a bit more activity, these comparisons are still a reach.

duke dynamite
05-03-2008, 03:59 PM
Basically there you are saying that he potentiall has gotten away with a lot of things. Who is to say that?

I mean is this the first time besides that choking thing that Marvin has been accused of a bad deed?

mb221
05-03-2008, 09:28 PM
The reason I believe that this comparison should never be made is the size of the rosters. When one person out of fifty three pops up in a news article like this, it's a lot harder to automatically associate the entire franchise with that type of behavior. Even if a handful of players from a single NFL team is getting in trouble, unless they are all serious cases (like the Bungles), a franchise isn't really earning the tag of being "troublemakers". But when you have a roster a lot smaller like an NBA team, it seems to be easier to typecast that type of behavior on to a franchise.

Merz
05-03-2008, 10:57 PM
That paragraph is indeed NOT the truth. During the 2005 NFL Pro Bowl, Marvin Harrison had a run in with a couple of autograph seeking kids where he was accused of putting a choke hold on one of them. The case was eventually dismissed, but something did indeed happen there. I guess that isn't necessarily as criminal as a shooting, but an alleged assault on a kid would certainly seem to me that his record was in fact not clean. (edit: It is actually mentioned at the end of the Harrison article on espn.com)

You do know that the family of these kids had tried this con before (the main reason it was dismissed). They thought an NFL receiver would be an easy mark, having heard of the likes of Terrell Owens and Randy Moss (not saying either one would do something like that) they just happened to pick the wrong receiver to try it on.

Eindar
05-03-2008, 11:25 PM
You do know that the family of these kids had tried this con before (the main reason it was dismissed). They thought an NFL receiver would be an easy mark, having heard of the likes of Terrell Owens and Randy Moss (not saying either one would do something like that) they just happened to pick the wrong receiver to try it on.

I'd like to see a link to that story. Also, I think it's hilarious that nobody gave Jackson and Tinsley the benefit of the doubt when Fingers and Co. had criminal records, but Marvin seems to be a poor, innocent victim in all this. Keep in mind that prior to Club Rio, both Tinsley and Jackson has a completely clean off-court slate.

Also, if Marvin is as pure and innocent as everyone assumes, why does he own a bar and a car wash, instead of, say, a car lot and a family restaurant? It's not like car washes are known for their extremely high rate of return on investment.

Eindar
05-03-2008, 11:35 PM
This is not just about one Pacer....this is a cultural, mental or maturity issue with the (past) team itself...and why there's still no comparison. ...whether it be at Cloud 9, Club Rio, the Conrad, the 8 second saloon or the Palace of Auburn Hills...hanging out with murders, smashing cameras, smashing up the lockerroom...getting caught with dope and failing drug tests...etc, etc, etc, etc....the overdraft charges have been building up.



Sensationalism. Cloud 9 and the Conrad were the same incident, and it's been proven over and over again that Tinsley was doing nothing more than fleeing for his life to avoid a Shawn Taylor type incident. The Brawl was out of the hands of the Pacers players, with the exception of Artest and Jackson, who are no longer with the team. Destruction of equipment is Ron Artest, again, no longer with the team. Shawne Williams wasn't "hanging out with murderers", his cousin brought one into his house. Also, your dope reference refers to friends of Pacers players. Neither player was brought up on charges.

So, your entire paragraph boils down to Jamaal threatening to kill someone, the Pacers players attending a function for a Colts player at Club Rio, and David Harrison being too stupid to stop smoking the ganj.

Considering that the Pacers are a horrible, horrible group of individuals, and the Colts take their spa treatments in Holy Water and such, it seems sort of interesting that when the Colts get rid of a problem player (which is fairly easily done) they're nipping a problem in the bud, but when the Pacers successfully trade a problem player in a system that's much harder to do so, they're just thugs. In actuality, neither franchise is completely clean and blame-free.

Sollozzo
05-04-2008, 03:20 AM
It baffles me how some can't figure out why the Colts have a holy reputation while the Pacers have a horrible one. The Pacers have made the bed they are lying in, and the Colts deserve all of the accolades they receive.

The reason the Colts have such a high reputation is that none of their "big" players have been involved in anything big up until now. I'll hold any judgment on Marvin until we get the facts from that.

The Colts reputation starts and ends with Manning and Dungy, and to a lesser extent, guys like Harrison, Freeney, and Wayne As long as that group of guys does good, the Colts reputation is fine. You think people care that Dominick Rhodes, who wasn't going to return to the Colts anyway was picked up on a DUI? You think people care about Kenton Keith? No.

People care about Manning first and foremost. As long as he is here, the Colts will have a great reputation amongst the city, regardless of the trouble some easily disposable players might get in.

The Pacers on the other hand had their most recognizable faces participate in the brawl. O'Neal, Jackson, and Artest...guys easily recognizable to any fan, who were probably the three best players on the team at the time. That would be like Manning, Wayne and Harrison getting into a brawl. If that happened, then the Colts image would be in some serious trouble.

The further problems of Williams, Tinsley, and Jackson added to the image that was set forth by the brawl.

In the NBA, you see the players up close. You know what they look like. And occasionally, they will dive for loose balls and interact with the crowd. But in football, they players play behind helmets and there isn't as much interaction with the fans. Most people wouldn't know what the fast majority of the Colts players looked like if they saw them on the street. I'm a diehard follower of the Colts and I know I wouldn't know a lot of those guys from Adam if I saw them at a restaurant.

Fans know who Rhodes and Keith are, but who really cares about them? The Colts can obviously do without them. Manning and Dungy, along with guys like Harrison and Wayne, have built the great image that the Colts have had for the past 5 seasons. When a lesser known player gets in trouble, it's not just a dink in the armor.

The Pacers OTOH, had their most recognizable faces at the center of the brawl. That's devastating.

Anyone who is baffled at the fact that the Colts come out unscathed from any of their players legal problems is not really looking at the big picture.

Of course, winning a title helps too I guess.

Twes
05-04-2008, 08:16 AM
AT the end of the day if an athlete gets in trouble off the field he better make sure he wins on the field.

It's one thing to tolerate behavior when there is a reason to keep him around.

If the team sucks and the players get in to trouble it's time to flush the stool.

Obviously it's better to win with players that don't get in trouble but that seems to be too much to ask.

Roaming Gnome
05-04-2008, 10:51 AM
AT the end of the day if an athlete gets in trouble off the field he better make sure he wins on the field.

It's one thing to tolerate behavior when there is a reason to keep him around.

If the team sucks and the players get in to trouble it's time to flush the stool.

Obviously it's better to win with players that don't get in trouble but that seems to be too much to ask.

:ding:
We have a winner here.

BlueNGold
05-04-2008, 11:42 AM
AT the end of the day if an athlete gets in trouble off the field he better make sure he wins on the field.

It's one thing to tolerate behavior when there is a reason to keep him around.

If the team sucks and the players get in to trouble it's time to flush the stool.

Obviously it's better to win with players that don't get in trouble but that seems to be too much to ask.

More and more this appears to be the closest thing to the truth...because we all have faults.

However, there is a significant distinction between a player like Ron Artest and a player like Tim Duncan. Or a coach like Tony Dungy and a coach like Bill Belichick. While there are shades of gray among all of us, there are distinctions to make....that some cannot see or simply do not want to admit to.

Naptown_Seth
05-04-2008, 11:59 AM
With Marvin Harrison being investigated for a shooting, you know that I had to :bump: bumpity bump bump this thread!
The discussion on the Colts board here at Pacers Digest

I just wonder if Indy fans are going to get on their high horse, no pun... since 2 incidents have happened within days of each other.
Well clearly Lucas will only have 30% capacity at the home opener, I mean I've heard it all too often that the Indy fans WON'T STAND FOR this kind of behavior regardless of the wins and losses.

Too bad for the Colts. Time to blow it up. Maybe a prominent sponsor will demand the trade of thug Harrison. I mean Doss shoots in the air outside a club, Keith starts crap in a club parking lot and now Harrison in a club parking lot shooting. And that DUI for Rhodes. Heck, I can't even keep up.

Of course I'll still go, but much like Pacers games I expect to be alone there. Sure Manning is Mr. Nice Guy, but so is Dunleavy. That's not the key, the key is sending a message that thugs won't be tolerated.

Oh, and rushing to hypocritical judgment. That's the other key.



* sorry, but this topic is my TNT nitro hot button and won't change anytime soon given what it did to my favorite team

Naptown_Seth
05-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Eindar - Colts function was 8 Seconds, not Rio. But the point is right on target.

It's a lot like how now if Spears gets a coffee and spills it E! will run a segment about her more out of control than ever. These things stop being about reality and start being about image, and at that point reality is no longer in control at all (meaning the people at the heart of it can't control it either).

BlueNGold
05-04-2008, 12:20 PM
Eindar - Colts function was 8 Seconds, not Rio. But the point is right on target.

It's a lot like how now if Spears gets a coffee and spills it E! will run a segment about her more out of control than ever. These things stop being about reality and start being about image, and at that point reality is no longer in control at all (meaning the people at the heart of it can't control it either).

Reputation does take on a life of its own...extends things and propels things, but everyone should know that going in. That's the way life goes. It's never been totally fair and you hardly ever get exactly what you deserve...similar to the justice system.

BTW, reputation is why a player like Ron Artest works for a whole lot less money than he would otherwise in terms of both indorsements and salary. It's rather ironic that he wanted to be the man and "get paid", but his approach did precisely the opposite of meeting his goals.

BlueNGold
05-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Sensationalism. Cloud 9 and the Conrad were the same incident, and it's been proven over and over again that Tinsley was doing nothing more than fleeing for his life to avoid a Shawn Taylor type incident.

Oh, it's so ironic that he's a victim every 6 months...

*shakes head*

The truth is, it's often impossible to prove these things so he's fortunate in that respect. What can be proven is he was hanging with a guy from Georgia who was arrested that night on a warrant. I guess at best he *frequently* makes bad choices. I will give him that much.

As these issues piled up, he earned his rep, and where is he? Yes, on the bench with an "injury". Puhleeze! I bet you think the Pacers want to keep him too....:laugh:


The Brawl was out of the hands of the Pacers players, with the exception of Artest and Jackson, who are no longer with the team.

That's a big exception. I'm glad you agree. This was never just about JT.


Destruction of equipment is Ron Artest, again, no longer with the team.

Again, this is part of the Pacer rep...that and his demanding a trade, wanting time off from his multi-million dollar contract to make bad music. This story is not just one of these players and why the Pacers have the rep they do.


Shawne Williams wasn't "hanging out with murderers", his cousin brought one into his house.

Yeh, right. I'm sure he had no idea. :rolleyes: How naive are you?


Also, your dope reference refers to friends of Pacers players. Neither player was brought up on charges.

Remember Rawle Marshall? He was arrested while still technically a Pacer...and probably one reason he was sent packing. Shawne Williams narrowly escaped being prosecuted for possession of MJ only because a passenger in his car claimed it and the police said it would be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was guilty. He was very fortunate. David Harrison? Well, no comment. These guys are real winners...



So, your entire paragraph boils down to Jamaal threatening to kill someone, the Pacers players attending a function for a Colts player at Club Rio, and David Harrison being too stupid to stop smoking the ganj.

No, those are the limited things you can see with this team. Most of the rest of the public see the full picture and don't simply factor in convictions to make a fair assessment of character. The truth is, if these guys didn't have so much money to pay attorneys...well, I'll let you finish that sentence.

Roaming Gnome
05-04-2008, 11:25 PM
Really, the bottom line is, the Pacers have to go a long time before we start banking a little good will with the casual fans and come off of being seen as an embarrasment. Yeah, I know most of the guys that our reputation revolves around are gone, but the "Pacers trouble clock" has managed to have been reset to zero a few times after we have cleaned house which has set us back.

Right now, the Pacers Trouble clock is only at:
67 days
(maybe we need one of those counting tote boards like we had before the regular season started)

That would be the Shawne Williams friend incident. Yes, he technically didn't get in trouble, but it is just another brick in the wall as far as most people I deal with in Indy see it.

Eindar
05-04-2008, 11:50 PM
Really, the bottom line is, the Pacers have to go a long time before we start banking a little good will with the casual fans and come off of being seen as an embarrasment. Yeah, I know most of the guys that our reputation revolves around are gone, but the "Pacers trouble clock" has managed to have been reset to zero a few times after we have cleaned house which has set us back.

Right now, the Pacers Trouble clock is only at:
67 days
(maybe we need one of those counting tote boards like we had before the regular season started)

That would be the Shawne Williams friend incident. Yes, he technically didn't get in trouble, but it is just another brick in the wall as far as most people I deal with in Indy see it.

Absolutely! We absolutely need a ticker like they use in factories that say "XX days without an incident/injury" LOL

As for the other stuff, yep, I was mistaken about Club Rio vs. 8 Seconds.


As these issues piled up, he earned his rep, and where is he? Yes, on the bench with an "injury". Puhleeze! I bet you think the Pacers want to keep him too....

Marvin's no stranger to the trainer's room these days, either. Regardless, that has nothing to do with off-field/court transgressions.

Tinsley's been a victim once, at Cloud 9. If you think Tinsley somehow provoked people to chase him with a rifle and do a drive-by shooting, you're clearly biased, and have no business even being involved in this discussion.

Absolutely, Tinsley needs to go. But Marvin has been in just as many "Mea Culpa" incidents as Jamaal, which is two. And so, if we're being fair, Marvin Harrison also needs to be cut due to this incident.

duke dynamite
05-05-2008, 12:30 AM
It's a lot like how now if Spears gets a coffee and spills it E! will run a segment about her more out of control than ever. These things stop being about reality and start being about image, and at that point reality is no longer in control at all (meaning the people at the heart of it can't control it either).
Bingo, you are right on target with that comment. I could compare our professional sports behavior problems with her, but I won't completely other than the fact that we are now looked at as with any bad look, step, or breath we take, we will be on front page news. I'm not just saying this because of the Pacers, either. I'm sure if a player from either team messes up again, the media will be eating that up like crazy.

Now on the bright side, I don't recall Kravitz putting his two cents in so far with the Harrison ordeal, which I'm sure he probably has, but I only get the Sunday Star, so I don't pay that much attention. (so correct me if I am wrong, please)

Roaming Gnome
05-05-2008, 10:41 PM
Pacers "in trouble" clock...

The last negative headline involving the Indiana Pacers was:
68 days ago

grace
05-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Pacers "in trouble" clock...

The last negative headline involving the Indiana Pacers was:
68 days ago

You're kidding. Personally, I'm shocked.

Naptown_Seth
05-06-2008, 11:43 AM
Well the thing is that if you say "Pacers" to any editor now he'll see the criminal angle first. If the story doesn't have that angle it won't play and isn't worth the time...unless it has some major new hook. JO running out of a burning building with a baby would play, for example.

But the editor/writer has zero interest in redirecting the current paradigm. They can't risk losing readership by forcing readers away from the angle they are comfortable with.

So honestly it's not even as simple as the clock counting high enough. They also need a set of very strong stories in some other direction in order to change the core storyline. At that point all stories would be valued for how closely they associate with that view instead.

Playoff runs/thrilling moments are one key. A guy winning 6th man or MIP or in the MVP discussion is another. But you could also have outside interests if they were big enough. JO as an Indy car sponser for a top 3 finisher at the 500.

But the small time PR moves, even as genuine as they might be, such as hospital visits just aren't going to do the trick. Not even 50 of them.


And frankly Dun and Danny aren't helping simply because they are so pleasantly bland. The positive guys they have now aren't positive in an exciting way, not that they should be expected to be. Just that it means they are still looking for that good angle.

Hopefully a cool draft pick would help. Even a guy like Mayo could be that answer because he would be a big story, he'd come in with the "trouble player, what are they thinking" angle that everyone would run with, and then if/when he turned out to be a nice kid and fun to watch he'd leverage against that image and turn it on it's head. That would play, the "surprise" factor.

Of course if he got into trouble it would be a nightmare of epic proportion.

RGnome
05-06-2008, 12:34 PM
Pacers "In Trouble" clock...

The last negative headline involving the Indiana Pacers was:
69 Days ago

grace
05-06-2008, 02:42 PM
Don't tell Kegboy this is the newest counting thread or he'll never come in here.