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View Full Version : Who's to Blame: JO, Bird/Walsh, JO'B, Trainers?



PacerGuy
04-11-2008, 09:54 PM
Who let JO come back & start this year < 100%? :mad:

What I'm getting at is this:
Look how we are playing down the streatch w/ a Healthy JO!!! Think where we could be had he been healthy for a much longer streatch. We had to sit JO 33 straight games, & played him far less then 100% for lord know how many more, all because he was not ready to come back when he did. My question is "WHY?", & "Who's accountable for that call?"
What if we had taken this percautious approach back in training camp? JO may have missed most/all of camp, maybe even a week or two to start the year, but he would have had the time to heal. Had we restricted him to 20 min/gm to start after that, he would have had time to rehab, & learn the system. We may have struggled early, but we would have had a healthy JO for sooo much longer then we did. Where would we be now had we done that then?
-Did JO lie/push himself too fast - against the advise of the trainers/doctors?
-Did Bird/Walsh push JO back to raise his trade value?
-Did Jim O'Brien push LB/DW, & JO back too early to learn the new system?
-Did ord trainers/JO's doc's give poor advise?

Where's the accountability? Why did we not give him the time he needed? Why is nobody asking this question?
Watching us play like we are now, I can't help but to wonder..... "What If""

maragin
04-11-2008, 10:26 PM
I'd blame the fans.

More seriously, I blame the "plan" we as an organization have put together. It has led us to try and make strengths where we had none, rather than play our best ball. This late run to increase our draft pic (I kid) doesn't fool me into thinking we're a good team. Nor did our fast start.

I don't have the actual information to properly place blame. I doubt any on this board do. Trying to choose who is at fault without real information is speculative at best.

Getting down off that high horse for a sec, I'd like to blame the FO for not backing up Carlisle and instead choosing to back up some of our players. I'd have happily had Rick on as our Jerry Sloan. I also prefer wins to "Let's make a new free-wheeling team like Phoenix" approach. I blame the organizations plan, approach, and execution first and foremost.

Will Galen
04-11-2008, 10:34 PM
Who let JO come back & start this year < 100%? :mad:

What I'm getting at is this:
Look how we are playing down the streatch w/ a Healthy JO!!! Think where we could be had he been healthy for a much longer streatch. We had to sit JO 33 straight games, & played him far less then 100% for lord know how many more, all because he was not ready to come back when he did. My question is "WHY?", & "Who's accountable for that call?"
What if we had taken this percautious approach back in training camp? JO may have missed most/all of camp, maybe even a week or two to start the year, but he would have had the time to heal. Had we restricted him to 20 min/gm to start after that, he would have had time to rehab, & learn the system. We may have struggled early, but we would have had a healthy JO for sooo much longer then we did. Where would we be now had we done that then?
-Did JO lie/push himself too fast - against the advise of the trainers/doctors?
-Did Bird/Walsh push JO back to raise his trade value?
-Did Jim O'Brien push LB/DW, & JO back too early to learn the new system?
-Did ord trainers/JO's doc's give poor advise?

Where's the accountability? Why did we not give him the time he needed? Why is nobody asking this question?
Watching us play like we are now, I can't help but to wonder..... "What If""

What makes you think someone has to be blamed?

They say a butterfly flapping it's wings can be the start of a hurricane. So maybe it's your fault the Pacers are losing.

Come on pal fess up, what'd you do?

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 11:29 PM
What makes you think someone has to be blamed?

They say a butterfly flapping it's wings can be the start of a hurricane. So maybe it's your fault the Pacers are losing.

Come on pal fess up, what'd you do?
Did you just call PacerGuy a butterfly?

spazzxb
04-12-2008, 03:43 AM
Did you just call PacerGuy a butterfly?
maybe he meant caterpillar. One of those fuzzy grean ones. jk

RamBo_Lamar
04-12-2008, 07:45 AM
What makes you think someone has to be blamed?

They say a butterfly flapping it's wings can be the start of a hurricane. So maybe it's your fault the Pacers are losing.

Come on pal fess up, what'd you do?


heh - that must be one awefully large butterfly!

Are you sure they weren't talking about Mothra?


http://www.godzillaondvd.com/mediapageloads/mothra%20stills/mothra-9.jpg

D-BONE
04-12-2008, 09:20 AM
Well, if you're claiming JO is "healthy" or "100% healthy" at this point, I'm really underwhelmed with him. Looks slow-footed, slow in straight-out speed, and has virtually no explosion in his vertical leap.

I suppose some of this could be chalked up to lack of stamina. I guess my question is was he/will he ever return to that? If not, he's an awfully high-priced defensive player.

Maybe the deterioration of his body will finally help him come to the realization that his best contribution to our team is defense and boardwork.

My feeling is that this summer he also needs to get on a training/dietary regimen that allows him to shed some weight. I think this would help him regain SOME of his original athleticism and make him a more effective player overall and within our system.

duke dynamite
04-12-2008, 09:30 AM
I don't really blame anyone. If JO felt like he could play, then play him. If everything seems to be okay, then maybe it is. I really can't really see putting his season on anyone's shoulders. (or knees! LOL)

Rajah Brown
04-12-2008, 09:50 AM
Well, I seem to recall a quote the other day from O'B along the
lines of 'this time, we're gonna listen to the doctors and
follow their advice'. That indicates to me that their advice
wasn't necessarily strictly adhered to at some point. So,
if that's the case, than whomever allowed J.O.'s desire to
play (or play too much, too soon) to trump the medical staff's
advice would be to the culprit.

On a positive note, at least they've learned the lesson.

LG33
04-12-2008, 11:22 AM
I think Jermaine probably pushed to play more, but I don't necessarily blame the guy because I'd have done the same thing.

Will Galen
04-12-2008, 11:56 AM
Did you just call PacerGuy a butterfly?

Yeah! It's a boxing term that I thought to technical for the forum. The full name is SuperJuniorMiniButterflyweight, or S.J.M.B.W. for 'snort.'


heh - that must be one awefully large butterfly!

Are you sure they weren't talking about Mothra?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

The butterfly effect is a phrase which encapsulates the more technical notion of sensitive dependence on initial conditions in chaos theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory). Small variations of the initial condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_condition) of a nonlinear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear) dynamical system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_system) may produce large variations in the long term behavior of the system. So this is sometimes presented as esoteric behavior, but can be exhibited by very simple systems: for example, a ball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball) placed at the crest of a hill might roll into any of several valleys depending on slight differences in initial position.


The phrase refers to the idea that a (EDIT MINE; SJMBW) butterfly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly)'s wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere) that ultimately cause a tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado) to appear (or prevent a tornado from appearing). The flapping wing represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena. Had the butterfly not flapped its wings, the trajectory of the system might have been vastly different.

PacerGuy
04-12-2008, 12:01 PM
Well if I'm the Butterfly, then I admit I must have stirred up the granule of sand that must have flown accross the world & hit Tinsley in his knee, knocking him out for the year....
I will admit I am a little shocked at the lack of accountability people seem to want to hold TPTB to this issue! We have had a hard year, and people on this board & others have suffered much disappointment, in large part to the decision to bring JO back too soon. We have no problem blaming JO, & saying he is not yorth the $$$, or critisizing his play, but when both are a direct result to the decision to bring him back too soon, we don't want to transfer that blame. We as an organization pissed away a lot of money t/y, & disappointed the fan base because our "franchise player" was hurt yet again. I only ask, if alls he needed was rest & more rehab, why was that not done? Why are we content w/ saying "Oh well..."? The fact is it happened & it was wrong!
Just think: If we had won just 5 more games because we had JO in for more of the year, we would be tied w/ Philly for a 6 seed; 6 games & we're tied w/ Wash for 5; & 8 games & we are tied w/ Cle for 4 seed - & Home Court!
Now, I am not saying that I think we are all that good, but we were never given a real chance to see how god we could have been. I am also not saying that having a lottery pick isn't better in the long run for our future, but w/ the mock drafts I see, I think the riskiest picks may be in the 10-15/17 range. I see value/bargins after 15/17, & I see reaches in 10-15/17.
Lastly, I am not saying JO is playing at 100%, not may he be 100% healthy, but he is pain-free, something he was not at the start of the year. You also can't just look at his stats, you must look at his impact. Teams must account for him, on "O" & "D". He opens up the court, adds a shot-blocking defender, & his 20 min/gm gives depth & rest to the other players. Add all 3 of those factors together, & while they don't show on a stat sheet, they affect the win/loss column!
Not having JO this year killed any chance to do anything - & someone is to blame for that!

Roaming Gnome
04-12-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't care about blame....

Just fix what is wrong!

PacerGuy
04-12-2008, 12:29 PM
I don't care about blame....

Just fix what is wrong!

Identifying the problem is the first step towards fixing it!

CableKC
04-12-2008, 12:42 PM
JONeal isn't 100%....if he was...he wouldn't be limited only to 20 minutes a game.

As to who is to blame if he wasn't 100% in the first place after training camp, I blame all JONeal, the Medical and Training Staff.

grace
04-12-2008, 02:00 PM
I think the idea was to get JO out there to show what he can do so the Pacers can talk some team into taking him off their hands.

As for who's to blame I don't blame the training staff. I blame who hired them in the first place. We've had these same kind of problems for years. They bumped David Craig upstairs and it's still the same.