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aceace
04-06-2008, 10:18 PM
I stop over at the goldenstatewarriors dot com website to see what their fans are saying. The top 3 threads were.... 1.GSW don't want/deserve to make the playoffs, 2.The Official trade Al Harrington thread, 3.For one who usually rises to the occasion SJax has wilted.

Amazing how things can change in a few months. One of the posts was about Stern suspending SJax for 6 games and how that cost the Warriors and how Stern should go because he didn't discipline the Refs in the betting scandal. I didn't know any other Refs had been named.

It appears that with Dun have a breakout year, Murphy's play since the all-star break and Ike with the potential tag still in place that we may have made one of the better trades in history with all 3 still being very young.

mrknowname
04-06-2008, 10:21 PM
I stop over at the goldenstatewarriors dot com website to see what their fans are saying. The top 3 threads were.... 1.GSW don't want/deserve to make the playoffs, 2.The Official trade Al Harrington thread, 3.For one who usually rises to the occasion SJax has wilted.

Amazing how things can change in a few months. One of the posts was about Stern suspending SJax for 6 games and how that cost the Warriors and how Stern should go because he didn't discipline the Refs in the betting scandal. I didn't know any other Refs had been named.

It appears that with Dun have a breakout year, Murphy's play since the all-star break and Ike with the potential tag still in place that we may have made one of the better trades in history with all 3 still being very young.

not sure about that

since the trade we have been terrible, i mean beyond terrible while golden state knocked off the 1st seed last year and are way better than us this year even if they don't make the playoffs

Kstat
04-06-2008, 10:25 PM
we may have made one of the better trades in history

Golden State is 46-31. They may miss the playoffs in the insanely tough west, but the fact remains they could still win 50 games.

In the east, they'd be the #4 seed.

I wouldn't say Golden State got rooked. They definitely are better off with Jackson than Dunleavy.

Kaufman
04-06-2008, 10:32 PM
The trade had to be made. And I think we were going to take a loss on Jackson. But it had to be made.

I don't agree that we stole the trade in the sense that I don't think our players are better. But, but, they are presentable and respectable. So on that account, I think we did ok. Since the trade had to be made.

As far as GS being 4th in the east, I'd even argue that they might be better than that - they'd have an easier schedule if they were facing eastern opponents more than twice a year with interconference/interdivision play.

Shade
04-06-2008, 10:34 PM
In the Dallas game, which may prove to be GS's biggest game of the year, Jack and Al combined for 2-for-20 shooting.

But, hell, the Warriors could easily win 50 games and still miss the playoffs. Not much you can do about that.

aceace
04-06-2008, 10:36 PM
Is it SJax and Al that has carried them to the top or is it B.Davis,Monta Ellis,Beidrins and others that are the improvement. Jackson is 11 - 47 fg last 4 games. With a 2 pt and 6 pt game might explain the thread about him. I still haven't figured out why Warrior fans are so in love with him, for the season he's shooting 40% fg 37% from 3.

LG33
04-06-2008, 10:39 PM
While it is true that Ellis and Biedrins are much better than they have been in previous years, the fact remains that the trade improved the Golden State Warriors team, no doubt about it.

AesopRockOn
04-06-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm pretty sure Marc Stein, that's right Pacers hating Marc Stein, crowned Jack his first trimester MVP. Critics all over the league have been saying all year that B Diddy and Jack are the two players who make the team what it is. Also, if Jack were on this team, he'd be the best defender; not an incredible accomplishment but that's the deal. And Al is much more useful than Murphy. Ike plays garbage time. Your sentiments are rather delusional.

Anthem
04-06-2008, 10:47 PM
I continue to wish that we'd traded Jack for Dun straight up.

That was the original deal.

rexnom
04-06-2008, 10:52 PM
I continue to wish that we'd traded Jack for Dun straight up.

That was the original deal.
Why not Al Harrington for Dunleavy? That wouldn't have worked? Maybe Jack just HAD to go but I would have enjoyed seeing a Tinsley-Jack-Dunleavy-Granger-JO lineup in the playoffs. Or possibly had Granger or Dunleavy off the bench.

ABADays
04-06-2008, 11:09 PM
Interesting that the Warriors and Pacers could end up in the exact same position in their conference - both on the outside looking in.

Kofi
04-06-2008, 11:13 PM
I've been pulling for Golden State to lose all season long. If they miss the playoffs, I'll be thrilled. What can I say, I'm a spiteful human being. :happydanc

Naptown_Seth
04-06-2008, 11:15 PM
Golden State is 46-31. They may miss the playoffs in the insanely tough west, but the fact remains they could still win 50 games.

In the east, they'd be the #4 seed.

I wouldn't say Golden State got rooked. They definitely are better off with Jackson than Dunleavy.
Not only that, but if you pull up the totals on Al/Jack vs Dun/Troy/Ike since the deal you'll see that it's nearly identical, and any honest person knows that Jack and Al are the better defenders in the bunch. Then you look at the cost for this being the same. A little more for Indy so far, PLUS only the tiny sum of $22m or so more at the end when Dun/Troy are no longer "young" and "full of potential". You know, when people have to start judging them on the actual results.

I WAS THE ONE praising Murphy's strong run about 3 weeks ago, though he's faded somewhat since then, and even still I wouldn't put this deal as even, let alone view it as some great deal.

Dun has had to shoot 40% from 3 just to get this thing back to maybe reasonable. Think about that.

Anyone calling this deal one of the best ever, even just in Pacers history, is completely out of touch or too young to have seen any deal before Brad for Pollard.

Again, ad naseum since it hasn't stuck yet, Donnie Walsh gave the Dallas Mavs an aging and never particularly impressive Herb Williams for a young, already exploding Detlef Schrempf. Det shortly after won back to back 6th man awards, was fairly paid, and also made an all-star team WHEN REGGIE DIDN'T that same year. The dude was 19-9.5-6. Herb was like 12.5-6 off the bench center by that point, and shooting 45% no less. Within 3-4 years Herb was getting 10-12 mpg and Detlef was making the all-star team.

Don't get me started on stuff like Pooh for Jackson, aging Dale for about to make 6 all-star teams JO, or Jackson-rental/filler for Jalen Rose. Heck, crazy as Ron was I think it's fair to say that Rose/Best were not about to help the Pacers win 61 or even 48, meaning that swapping them for Ron/Brad was a huge steal and more so when you realize both Ron and Brad made the all-star team after that trade.


AT BEST the Golden State trade is Michael Williams/Chuck Person for Sam Mitchell/Pooh Richardson, and Minny didn't become some 50 win team with Chuck and Mike.

skyfire
04-06-2008, 11:45 PM
I continue to wish that we'd traded Jack for Dun straight up.

That was the original deal.

That would have been a better deal. Even if Al cant play next to JO, he still has more trade value than Murphy and Ike.

Jackson is still the same player he was when he was on our team. Very streaky. The warriors team mentality is to embrace that where as we needed consistency from that position.

JayRedd
04-07-2008, 10:49 AM
What can I say, I'm a spiteful human being. :happydanc

Hard to believe.

Will Galen
04-07-2008, 10:52 AM
Hard to believe.

For the first time . . . I . . . think you are funny!

NuffSaid
04-07-2008, 01:55 PM
I stop over at the goldenstatewarriors dot com website to see what their fans are saying. The top 3 threads were.... 1.GSW don't want/deserve to make the playoffs, 2.The Official trade Al Harrington thread, 3.For one who usually rises to the occasion SJax has wilted.
Went to the site...couldn't find their fan message board. Found their fanblog, but couldn't find anything close to what's mentioned above about the 2 two former Pacers.

Just curious...not that interested...but if you or someone else can point me in the right direction I'll take a quick look-see. :cool:

aceace
04-07-2008, 06:00 PM
Went to the site...couldn't find their fan message board. Found their fanblog, but couldn't find anything close to what's mentioned above about the 2 two former Pacers.

Just curious...not that interested...but if you or someone else can point me in the right direction I'll take a quick look-see. :cool:


http://www.goldenstwarriors.com/index.php?sid=2f7de0b64eb4fa8b2668770ac2f7e7e3

NuffSaid
04-07-2008, 06:15 PM
aceX2,

Thanks for the link.

It's funny how no matter what team's message board you visit, you're bound to see some of the same arguments/dislikes for certain players, i.e., "trade Al...his contract is too high...SJax doesn't play defense...such and such player can't lead a kids through a water sprinkler on a warm summer's day (okay, that last one I just made up, but you gotta admit it sounds good and just might fit a few so-called "team leaders" around the league. :laugh: ) But what's more interesting is how many of those same fans were singing SJax and Baby Al's praises when they went to the post-season last year are now lambasting them now. Fickled fans!

Regardless, I'm glad their somebody elses problem and not the Pacers. :dance:

ajbry
04-07-2008, 06:57 PM
I wouldn't lump Harirngton into this discussion. He's been in Nellie's doghouse most of the year and honestly doesn't impact the team at all. If he's hitting his threes against a big center who has to defend him at the arc, that's great. But most of the time he's the 5th or 6th best player on the roster.

Jack, unfortunately, has ran out of gas. It's bizarre considering he's always been a late-season type player and April has always been a fantastic month for him. But he's been battling ankle, foot, and leg problems for the duration of 2008 and Nellie playing him 40 MPG (the most on the Warriors) has beat him to shreds, especially considering he worked twice as hard most of the year (always saddled with the toughest defensive assignment and still put up 21 PPG).

However, it's only been a stretch of 4 games. His averages have came down quite a bit lately, but he's still at 20/4.5/4 and should be in consideration for All-Defensive team. It's hard to predict that his shooting will magically come back around and his legs will be rejuvenated, though.

And NuffSaid, Warriors fans have wanted to move Harrington for a while. If you think they've ever complained about Jack playing D, you're so far off I'm not going to dignify it with a refutation of that claim.

It's great that Jack has given his detractors a small window to throw in some jabs. 4 games is a massive sample size and if he's terrible for 4 games, it must erase his contributions over the last 100 as a Warrior. It's obviously logical to think as such. Not like he was given any MVP consideration or anything this year.

And these last 4 games are tragic indicators of the Warriors and their struggles when Jack doesn't play well. His scoring average is something like 6 points higher in wins than losses (and they've won a lot more games with him than not, something like the 5th best record in the league). You can see his value just by that alone.

ajbry
04-07-2008, 07:04 PM
In the Dallas game, which may prove to be GS's biggest game of the year, Jack and Al combined for 2-for-20 shooting.

As far as I'm concerned, the first game of the playoffs is on Thursday, on TNT. That is by far the biggest game of the season for both the Nuggets and Warriors. Everyone will be watching that *****.

maragin
04-07-2008, 07:05 PM
"we may have made one of the better trades in history"

You really, really lost me there.

d_c
04-07-2008, 07:07 PM
I've been pulling for Golden State to lose all season long. If they miss the playoffs, I'll be thrilled. What can I say, I'm a spiteful human being. :happydanc

And I hope the Pacers draft Kevin Love just to satisfy you. And that's not even being spiteful because Love might actually be a pretty good player.

Seriously, Jackson is out of gas and playing hurt/beatup. He's never played 39 mins a game carrying this kind of load.

Nellie originally thought 46 wins was going to be enough. When it became apparent that 9 teams were on pace to possibly win 50+, he had no choice but to pound his starters with minutes, as the bench was simply too erratic and inexperienced for his tastes.

The Warriors might end up with 50 wins. An outstanding season, but they may have picked the wrong year to do it.

I'll take Harrington and his contract over Murphy and his, though it does disturb me that Mullin made Harrington his #1 target two summers ago (but then I guess the Pacers did too) with no apparent backup plan. I never thought the guy was that good or that he was the answer to their numerous problems they had 2 years ago. The Warriors had an absolutely disastarous season in 05-06' and it did make me laugh when all Mullin tried to do that summer to fix our problems was to go after Al Harrington. LOL.

Worked out alright, as missing out on Harrington (more specifically, the inability to make any moves at all in the summer of 06') is really what forced the ownership/management to hire back Nellie.

d_c
04-07-2008, 07:14 PM
I continue to wish that we'd traded Jack for Dun straight up.

That was the original deal.

I think Jackson for Dunleavy would have been a good trade for both teams. And I think Murphy/Ike for Harrington would have been good as well.

I just think taking both trades at the same time is the questionable part for the Pacers. Both Dunleavy and Murphy make more money than Harrington and don't complement eachother well on court.

aceace
04-07-2008, 07:48 PM
Lets take things in perspective here - no matter how many more I lose - We have been saddled with injuries, Ike,JO then Tinman. Tinsley plays much better when JO is on the floor. Ike got off to a great start and then 3 games in boom. JO has missed half the season. Golden State has been healthy other than players missing 1 or 2 games. We got 3 for their 2 (basically) We have seen Ike play when he gets a chance, why he doesn't play more IDK. This is why I think in another year or two this will turn out to be a fantastic trade. How long before Jax gets stupid again and decides to shoot it up with someone. If Al is in Nellies doghouse like someone else said then what did they really get. JAX shooting all of 40% fg and 37% from 3

DgR
04-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Is it possible that in terms of talent the trade turned out pretty even?


Dun is having a breakout season- he's showing leadership and is about as essential for us as Jax is for GS. Plus he's still improving.

The difference between the clubs is the compatibility of the players aquired. We got another SF while losing our starting SG when we already have a logjam at that position. we got 2 more bad defenders on a team that already can't defend. and like was said here before- look at that GS roster excluding AL and Jax- it's rediculously good compared to ours! Plus we had our 2 best players out for basically the entire season!!!

there are many things to consider when comparing the 2 teams' seasons. It's very easy just stating GS is a much better team than us.

duke dynamite
04-07-2008, 08:01 PM
From reading back a few years on those boards, the GS fans really have never had any patience for any of their players.

d_c
04-07-2008, 08:08 PM
If Al is in Nellies doghouse like someone else said then what did they really get. JAX

Couple points on this (from purely a Warriors perspective):

Whenver Nellie is asked about this trade, the first thing he says talks about is the cap situation, not the players, and how he told Mullin it was imperative that they get their salaries under control and to do it as soon as possible. The Warriors were able to shave off a total of about $30M in committed salaries. If not for the difference in the exchanged salaries, the Warriors would have never done this trade.

So they saved on the cap situation and ended a 12 year playoffless streak.

Had they not done the trade, they would have still had a horrible cap situation and would have been threatening the Clippers record of missing the playoffs 14 (or 15?) years in a row. That's a distinction that I don't think anybody would want, but it's one that would be staring right down at them had they not done the deal.

NuffSaid
04-08-2008, 12:39 PM
And NuffSaid, Warriors fans have wanted to move Harrington for a while. If you think they've ever complained about Jack playing D, you're so far off I'm not going to dignify it with a refutation of that claim.

It's great that Jack has given his detractors a small window to throw in some jabs. 4 games is a massive sample size and if he's terrible for 4 games, it must erase his contributions over the last 100 as a Warrior. It's obviously logical to think as such. Not like he was given any MVP consideration or anything this year.

And these last 4 games are tragic indicators of the Warriors and their struggles when Jack doesn't play well. His scoring average is something like 6 points higher in wins than losses (and they've won a lot more games with him than not, something like the 5th best record in the league). You can see his value just by that alone.
Since you've called me out, let me answer that challenge...

I'm not downing SJax, not at all. Your fellow fans did that! Just click on the link aceace provided and read their commentary for yourself. In fact, I give Sjax props where due and in this case it seems he's the engine that keeps the Warriors' gravy train rolling along. I just find it interesting how not only does it seem as if the GS fans have turned on these very players they praised when they got them but are also using some of the same arguments we used to get rid of them. Fans are fickled!

I'm gonna assume that you, as a GS/SJax fan, weren't buzzing around here before the trade. Otherwise, you'd have recognized some of the sample statements I made above as the exact same types of arguments we used concerning both SJax and Big Al for years! But again, they're the Warrior fan's problem now.

(Sidenote: I was glad to hear SJax was promoted to Team Captain and had hoped he'd turn the corner as far as his off-court behavior. I haven't heard anything negative come out of your camp. So, I guess he's doing okay in that regard. Still, ain't it funny how no matter how good one does off the court things always turn to production on the court and once that production begins to trail off...you get fickled fans...'Nuff Said.)

idioteque
04-08-2008, 12:56 PM
I think the trade was pretty even even though I was dead set against it when it happened.

Murph and Dun are far from perfect and Ike has been a disappointment. However the only player of any value we really gave up in my opinion was Jackson. Harrington never fit our offense and he is one of those guys who, while putting up pretty good numbers, is never able to maintain chemistry with a team or find his spot and will probably be shipped around a lot during his career. You see his numbers and some highlights and you think wow, this guy is pretty good. But when it comes to practical matters such as giving him a role with your team, it never seems to work out for him.

Saranus on the other hand was a player that was never going to be good enough to be in the NBA. While the trade hurt our cap situation overall, at least we got out of paying Saranus for an extra year.

I think that when we made the trade, Jack was on average a better player than Dunleavy. However I think the level at which Dun has improved here is bringing him ever so closer to the level of Jack. Both are good players and can serve as your first option more often than not, but both are also inconsistent and have their share of not so good nights. Neither should ever be considered for the MVP award. Marc Stein giving Jack the first trimester MVP award is nice, but I don't think Jack will ever be consistent enough to win the one for the whole season. The one area where Jack will always be better than Dun is with defense.

I would much rather have Murphy than Harrington. Harrington is probably better than Murphy by far in regards to sheer talent, but Murphy has found a role in this team, which is something that Harrington was never able to do.

People will say "well Golden State is much better after the trade therefore the trade must have benefited GS a lot more" but that is not necessarily true. GS has a much better surrounding cast around Jackson and Harrington (Harrington not even being one of GS's better stars) than the Pacers have around Dun and Murphy.

I would much rather have the set of:

Matt Barnes
Andris Biedrins
Kelenna Azubuike
Baron Davis
Monta Ellis
Mickael Pietrus
Brandan Wright

compared to

Tinsley
O'Neal
Rush
Deiner
Granger
Foster
Daniels
Williams
Murray

Absolutely no comparison between the talent surrounding the players traded. THAT is why GS is so much better than us right now.

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 01:29 PM
First off, ajbry is a Jackson fan, not a GS fan that showed up post-trade.

Secondly, I love how Jackson is just bound to do something "again". What's that list that indicates endless problems?

Brawl
bizarre situation in which all the main fans involved had a criminal history, while neither Jack nor Ron did

Rio
got gun and fired in air to end the brawl, did the brawl end or not?

Jackson never shot at anyone and as far as we know he didn't start anything either. Given the fact that after he left Tinsley has been in the middle of 2 other alteractions I think it's at least fair to suspect that he might be the one with a knack for ticking people off.


I just find myself constantly sickened by the massive level of unreasonable intolerance, the kind that is cartoonishly out of whack and based on what quickly becomes a press-fueled caricature. Dunleavy has yelled at people on the court, he's gotten ticked off, mixed it up and for all we know maybe even vented on his coach. But since it's never reported as "he's at it again" it doesn't become that. It's a Catch-22.


Plenty of fans on here have had an appropriate frustration with Jackson, they struggled to tolerate the inconsistancy and silly outbursts while at the same time appreciating the fire he put into the team, his defense and his scoring when he got hot.

I'm fine with those people saying "I think adjusting the situation by trading him was for the best".

That's not the same as "Just wait, he's bound to be up to his old tricks" as if Jackson had a history of anything other than about 10 techs a season and being around Ron/Tinsley.


Stephen Jackson - tasered never
Dale Davis - tasered once

Jackson - not named in Gold Club strip club case
Reggie Miller/Dale (or Tony) - were named in Gold Club case

Jackson - never bowed to crowd after "game winning shot" right before another shot beat them
Reggie - did do this

Jackson - didn't call a fan a b**** and tell him his team was chokers (including the choke sign) on a national broadcast game
Reggie - did do this


I like Reggie a lot more than Jackson, but the point is that this long list of issues and the pining for the good guys is way out of touch.

Speed
04-08-2008, 01:36 PM
I was watching the National game last week and Jax was guarding the other teams PF, not crazy effective, but pretty good THEN about 4 plays into watching he doesn't get a foul call on a drive and never got back on Defense. It was only semi transition and it was 5 or 6 seconds and he still didn't back on D. The other team scored and they threw a baseball pass to the other hash mark where SJ was waiting, he never crossed half court!!!

First thing I said to my wife (sarcasitically) was WOW how'd he get down there so quick?!?!??!

Then I said, I am so glad he's not here anymore. I can't stand him (or any player like that)

That is why I am so glad he's gone, the other stuff is just icing.

Elgin56
04-08-2008, 01:50 PM
How anyone can compare Dun's on court behavior with Jackson is beyond all sincere reasoning. It is amazing that a few posters were slamming Dun for not being emotional enough and when he does show a tad bit of emotion, he is compared to Jackson. S w e e t!

Noodle
04-08-2008, 02:21 PM
How anyone can compare Dun's on court behavior with Jackson is beyond all sincere reasoning. It is amazing that a few posters were slamming Dun for not being emotional enough and when he does show a tad bit of emotion, he is compared to Jackson. S w e e t!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKsr4L9lh0&NR=1

This is still funny to me.

duke dynamite
04-08-2008, 02:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKsr4L9lh0&NR=1

This is still funny to me.
Always love watching that. Go get 'em, Mike!

JayRedd
04-08-2008, 02:38 PM
WOW. I'd never seen that. That's amazing.

ABADays
04-08-2008, 02:49 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the first game of the playoffs is on Thursday, on TNT. That is by far the biggest game of the season for both the Nuggets and Warriors. Everyone will be watching that *****.

No doubt. Everyone loves those battles for 8th place. I am assuming since SJax is exhausted we shouldn't look for him to climb out of 8th-10th place in the teams shooting percentage stats.

ajbry
04-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Since you've called me out, let me answer that challenge...

I'm not downing SJax, not at all. Your fellow fans did that! Just click on the link aceace provided and read their commentary for yourself. In fact, I give Sjax props where due and in this case it seems he's the engine that keeps the Warriors' gravy train rolling along. I just find it interesting how not only does it seem as if the GS fans have turned on these very players they praised when they got them but are also using some of the same arguments we used to get rid of them. Fans are fickled!

I'm gonna assume that you, as a GS/SJax fan, weren't buzzing around here before the trade. Otherwise, you'd have recognized some of the sample statements I made above as the exact same types of arguments we used concerning both SJax and Big Al for years! But again, they're the Warrior fan's problem now.

(Sidenote: I was glad to hear SJax was promoted to Team Captain and had hoped he'd turn the corner as far as his off-court behavior. I haven't heard anything negative come out of your camp. So, I guess he's doing okay in that regard. Still, ain't it funny how no matter how good one does off the court things always turn to production on the court and once that production begins to trail off...you get fickled fans...'Nuff Said.)

As Seth said (thanks Seth), I'm not exactly a loyal Warriors fan. I've grown to like them but if Jack hadn't been dealt to Gully State, I wouldn't care a bit. Reggie was my all-time favorite player and when he retired, Jack filled that gap and considering the dramatic turn of fortunes (and my lack of geographical allegiance to any team), I enjoy the Warriors a hell of a lot more than the Pacers right now.

"I haven't heard anything negative come out of your camp. So, I guess he's doing okay in that regard." Why would there be anything negative? Jack's two lifetime incidents need to be labeled as aberrations, not a pattern of never-ending delinquency. Dude won the Community Award from the NBA just a few days ago. That's not just doing "okay" - and add to the fact he's the most important vocal leader on the team.

Regarding the whole "talent level" argument that dcpacersfan made... On the whole, you're right. The Warriors are definitely a better constructed team with more talented players. But that doesn't explain why they're a lottery team with Jack and a playoff team and possible fringe contender with him. If they hadn't gone 1-6 without him, it would be an entirely different set of playoff circumstances right now. So their talent doesn't equate to victories without Jack. He's as important to that team as Baron.

And that clip from Dun's GSW days is hilarious.

ajbry
04-08-2008, 03:00 PM
No doubt. Everyone loves those battles for 8th place. I am assuming since SJax is exhausted we shouldn't look for him to climb out of 8th-10th place in the teams shooting percentage stats.

The entire playoffs last year were greatly impacted by the 8th seed in the Western Conference, where the difference between the best team and the 8th is about the same margin as the 1st and 2nd in the East...

Kofi
04-08-2008, 03:11 PM
Maybe Jacko will take time away from his fishin' trip to accompany Dunleavy to pick up his M.I.P. award?

duke dynamite
04-08-2008, 03:25 PM
Maybe Jacko will take time away from his fishin' trip to accompany Dunleavy to pick up his M.I.P. award?

I really hope Mike gets it. He went through so much adversity in GS. That environment wasn't good. Now he is living up to his expectations from draft day.

:lol:

ABADays
04-08-2008, 04:03 PM
The entire playoffs last year were greatly impacted by the 8th seed in the Western Conference, where the difference between the best team and the 8th is about the same margin as the 1st and 2nd in the East...

Well, the first round was impacted. So are you saying Denver might have that same impact this year as the 8th seed? Amazing though that GS would be almost 15 games out of first in the weak a** East where they are only 8 1/2 in the West. I just can't understand how the Warriors could be in this position with Jackson. I mean - they have JACKSON!

duke dynamite
04-08-2008, 04:06 PM
The west is due, though. In the 90's it was all east. (Except for the year of the Rockets)

count55
04-08-2008, 04:09 PM
I really hope Mike gets it. He went through so much adversity in GS. That environment wasn't good. Now he is living up to his expectations from draft day.

:lol:


Maybe Jacko will take time away from his fishin' trip to accompany Dunleavy to pick up his M.I.P. award?


I think Rudy Gay has the MIP all locked up.

duke dynamite
04-08-2008, 05:54 PM
I think Rudy Gay has the MIP all locked up.
That's gay. I was only hoping... :p

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 06:06 PM
One other thing about the construction of the teams. Last year right after the trade the Warriors had Baron officially call it quits for awhile thanks to his lingering injury. Baron and JRich missed MORE TIME post-trade than before and yet with the only difference being Dun/Ike/Troy or Jack/Al they suddenly became much better...at least if you believe in the twisted "won loss" stat which we all know is meaningless.

Meanwhile the Pacers hit the skids. Now at the time there was talk of losing Quis being the big impact, but now that looks less likely to have been the problem. Mike was not shooting 40% from 3 last year either.

Now you can talk up "new to the team" but that was true for the guys going TO Golden State.


For me the whole idea that you must hate Jack/Al or Mike/Troy/Ike as some kind of mutually exclusive pairing is stupid.

I LIKE Dunleavy for the most part. I think Troy is even more likeable. They play terrible defense though. I'm sure they don't want to, I'm sure they hate losing, and I'm sure they don't want to miss the playoffs just so the Pacers can draft Westbrook instead of Thabeet or something like that.

Jack was frustrating, but then so was Smits on many occasions. But like Smits he was also a Pacer and part of a lot of great Pacer games too...including the one that was ruined by some drunken a'hole with a cup.

It's not wrong or fanboy to actually have your head out of the sand and notice the DRAMATIC swing in the winning PCT surrounding that GSW deal.


Frankly I think fans should hate the Hawks a lot more right now. Took our pick last year, made the Pacers eat the Edwards contract and now are sitting squarely in the Pacers way of a playoff spot.

Jackson on the other hand kept playing and bringing it even when fans were booing the crap out of him. He was often hurt, I saw him take extremely hard falls on several occasions, and he kept coming back out. A lot of guys would have packed it in with the hometown fans coming down on them so bad. We've already been debating other guys that haven't appeared willing to tough out some rough times (Peja, Al and Ron complaining about their role, Tins with who knows what).

duke dynamite
04-08-2008, 06:14 PM
Jackson on the other hand kept playing and bringing it even when fans were booing the crap out of him. He was often hurt, I saw him take extremely hard falls on several occasions, and he kept coming back out. A lot of guys would have packed it in with the hometown fans coming down on them so bad. We've already been debating other guys that haven't appeared willing to tough out some rough times (Peja, Al and Ron complaining about their role, Tins with who knows what).

I was one of those fans last season who cheered on SJax even through the whole off-court mess. Cheered during opening intros while he was being booed. Heck, I did that with Tinsley this year! I was also so disappointed that he didn't make it to FanJam last season. I did like Jackson. I supported all of them. Yes, there were times where I would hope that we could get something out of him before the trade deadline (AI), but that was because I thought we needed a change.

I can say that I've never booed any one of our players. Yes, I've been frustrated at times, but that comes and goes with supporting a team. Any team as a matter of fact.

No, I am not pleased with where we are, but I really think that our players do have potential.

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 06:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKsr4L9lh0&NR=1

This is still funny to me.
This is why some posters aren't worth debating. Reality is already kicking them in the rear, why pile on.

You put Jackson's head on Reggie's body in any one of his endless fights, taunts, ref screamfests, etc and suddenly it's a thug thing. Posters would have been saying "there he goes again" if Jackson was in the exact same position as Reggie was when Jordan scraped his face.

Double standards are one of my biggest pet peeves. That's the only reason I rant so much in these Jackson debates. It has nothing to do with him being a saint and he wasn't one of my favorite players, though I did like him overall.



I've been on that same view Duke. I've seen more games live this year than the last two. Last summer I basically called out Dun on his 3 ball, saying that for the Pacers to hit the win totals some were predicting his 3 ball would have to be one of a list of things that would have to go right. Sadly it's one of the few that did (Tins and JO playing were also on that list).

So I'd love to see him get MIP, and at the very least I'm expecting him to get some recognition for being in the running. I don't think he's this great player due to his negatives, but I do like him. If it wasn't for people seeing him as some savior I wouldn't speak a word against the guy. Heck, even on his contract my main problem is that extra year more than anything.



Speed - those are legit knocks on his game. If he didn't have those knocks he'd be worth a lot more money. That was always my point. I don't see how those things are any worse than Diener calling his own number for 30% 3pt shooting or Mike escorting guys to the rim or Ike puking the ball up at the first sign of a double team.

Jack was no more the savior than Mike is now, but people don't boo Mike or Diener or even Quis. That's my issue.

ABADays
04-08-2008, 06:52 PM
You put Jackson's head on Reggie's body in any one of his endless fights, taunts, ref screamfests, etc and suddenly it's a thug thing. Posters would have been saying "there he goes again" if Jackson was in the exact same position as Reggie was when Jordan scraped his face.

Double standards are one of my biggest pet peeves.

The question then begs "how do you account for that"? If it's as simple as you say how could one be revered and the other so reviled?

There are, apparently, two SJax roaming around - the GS one and the IND one. The things I totally disliked about him here seemingly do not exist on the West Coast.

Kaufman
04-08-2008, 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABADays
The question then begs "how do you account for that"? If it's as simple as you say how could one be revered and the other so reviled?

There are, apparently, two SJax roaming around - the GS one and the IND one. The things I totally disliked about him here seemingly do not exist on the West Coast.

I wish I could dictate the answer to this one bc I think its a long one and related almost uncertainly to the psyche of the fans, if you will.

Basically long story short is: I think the fans' brains were severally damaged with the brawl. And I think that Artest and Jackson came out as the goats. Ron Artest continued to have problems; I think had those problems not continued then I think things might have quieted down. But I think the problems Ron had were quite similar to Jackson, except Ron couldn't tolerate the disapproval. Ron forced the issue and forced his trade.

Stephen, on the other hand, tried to tough it out, and was examined under the microscope. Every last move he made, we (the fans) found something wrong with. If you remember, he didn't have the most appealing entrance to the Pacers - when he was on the Spurs I think that Mike Brown had a calming effect on him. He was drafted initially and then waived before going to Europe and resurfacing with the Nets. He wasn't academically eligible to play at Arizona.

So there was a lot of baggage. And I think those things weighed on the fans' minds. And then the gun shooting thing... boy that was a death sentence.

If you can accept this analogy - if you have a history of being a criminal and you are in a bank during a robbery, people automatically think you are involved.

I think some of this caught up with Stephen.

I personally feel bad for the guy, and I think a lot of the fans here now in retrospect also feel bad for his situation. I think a lot of us want to be closet Jackson fans, and unfortunately some of us still are waiting for him to slip up so as to say "I told you so".

Lets see what happens.

I for one think he's going to make it though.

aceace
04-08-2008, 07:38 PM
Lots of great debate here... in the meantime I think I will just wait for The GS fans to turn on him. Any prediction for the "Trade Jackson" thread?

d_c
04-08-2008, 07:51 PM
Lots of great debate here... in the meantime I think I will just wait for The GS fans to turn on him. Any prediction for the "Trade Jackson" thread?

According to many people, Jackson was supposed to have trashed our team long ago.

Jackson should be good so long as Nellie is the coach. As soon as he's done, I'd look into dealing both him and Baron. He gets the most out of those 2 players.

As far as a "trade Jackson" thread goes, every player gets one of those. There were plenty of "trade Monta" threads all summer. Just typical stuff from NBA fans.

Elgin56
04-08-2008, 09:21 PM
Boo hoo, fans booed Jackson, and now they don't boo Dun or Murphy or Ike. Some of you Jack admirers just don't get it. Fans have every right to boo or cheer whomever they choose to, nothing evil or wrong with that. I am sure that Pacer fans had a wide range of reasons for not cheering for Jackson, most of them self inflicted by Jackson. I don't recall any poster here, saying that Dun is the "Savior", in fact most fans were very skeptical of his abilities. Why in the world anyone works themselves into a lather over why fans treated Jackson different than Dun is beyond me. Boo hoo Hoo, Mommy likes Billy better than me.

aceace
04-08-2008, 09:37 PM
GS fans are hard to please on the court and I doubt they care what happens off the court. Pacers fans have a lot more patience when it comes to contributing on the court but very little off the court.

d_c
04-08-2008, 10:17 PM
GS fans are hard to please on the court and I doubt they care what happens off the court. Pacers fans have a lot more patience when it comes to contributing on the court but very little off the court.

Let me straighten out some of this utter non-sense.

The Warriors still had very good attendance considering they had a run of 12 straight non-playoff appearances. They still supported their team despite it being a very bad product. I would cite this as an example of showing patience. The monetary value of the franchise has gone up steadily throughout the years despite lots of losing and an incompetent owner, and that has everything to do with the fans.

We don't care what happens off court? We booed Latrell Sprewell everytime he came back. He didn't get a free pass. Obviously, we cared that he literally choked the life out of the franchise.

The reason we don't talk about or express concern about off the court problems is because since Sprewell, we haven't had multiple problems in this area. Jason Richardson in the summer of 2003 got arrested for hitting his girlfriend. That's been it.

Other than this, what has Stephen Jackson or any other Warrior player in recent memory done off the court (while they've played for GS) that should make fans concerned? What specific incidents would you point to about Warrior players that you think our fans should be concerned about but aren't?

Pacer fans have voiced displeasure about the offcourt problems and obviously care about what goes on. The main reason you've shown such displeasure is because some of the players have given you reason to be upset.

Elgin56
04-09-2008, 06:04 AM
Troll.


Can't handle the truth, so you call someone a troll. Yeah that is the ticket.

My post is right on the money with the few posters on this board who are after almost two years still crying that Jackson was traded. Get the hell over it and root for the players that are now on the team. If that is being a troll, than you can:censored:.

I am a life long Pacer fan and supporter, yeah from the very beginning of this team. Troll my :censored:!

count55
04-09-2008, 07:19 AM
Why do we care one way or the other what Jackson or the other guys we traded away do? With the exception of two games a year, they are completely irrelevant to us.

If, by some (monstrously unlikely) freak of nature, we ever end up facing the Warriors in the finals with these rosters, then I think both sides should be happy with the trades.

Right now, the only thing that's of any importance with this trade is how it impacts the Pacers. (Actually, that's the only thing that ever mattered.) We've gotten a nice player with somewhat distasteful contract in Dunleavy, an OK player with a horrible contract in Murphy, and, depending on your point of view, either a complete bust in Ike or a really good player who's being unfairly treated by JOB.

The biggest problem with the trade was, is, and always will be the financial side of it. I'll never understand why we took on two (at the time) bad contracts instead of just one. As some mentioned, a smaller trade might've been better for the Pacers long term. However, on the whole, I don't regret moving the players.

It simply wasn't working here with those guys, particularly Jackson. It's a shame, because he could've helped this team (to some degree). Maybe in some ways Jackson got a raw deal here, but he (like Tinsley now) certainly participated actively in his fall from grace in Indy. I also think he needed to go somewhere else for his own benefit. Since I don't believe he was ever going to make the contribution here that he's making in GS, I don't view it as a loss to the Pacers.

Ultimately, however, I can't understand why people need him to fail. When we made the trade, I was baffled at the Golden State fans who came to the (RealGM) Pacer board with the express purpose of hating on Murphleavy. It's just a complete waste of time.

aceace
04-09-2008, 07:55 AM
@count55

If the contracts were bad at the time and have turned good why was that a mistake? We are 14M above the cap we were not going to sign any free agents whether we had Al and Jax or Troy and Mike. Dun IMHO does not have a distasteful contract at 8M. With the year he has had if he were a FA he could garner 10M easily. Murphy would probably Garner at least 7-8 with his play since the all-star break, 16pts 8 rbds. I am more concerned about Ike and why he hasn't played.

count55
04-09-2008, 09:16 AM
@count55

If the contracts were bad at the time and have turned good why was that a mistake? We are 14M above the cap we were not going to sign any free agents whether we had Al and Jax or Troy and Mike. Dun IMHO does not have a distasteful contract at 8M. With the year he has had if he were a FA he could garner 10M easily. Murphy would probably Garner at least 7-8 with his play since the all-star break, 16pts 8 rbds. I am more concerned about Ike and why he hasn't played.

The contracts were both considered to be horrific at the time...arguably the two worst contracts in the league.

Since then, Dunleavy has made a leap and is close to earning his money, but it's the length and raises that make his contract hard to swallow.

Murphy, even at his post-all star break levels of 15.5pts and 7.6 rebounds is still an awful contract at 3-yrs and $33 million remaining after this season.

Factor in that both are swinging gates on defense and that Dunleavy plays basically the same position as our best young player (Danny), that makes it money poorly spent.

Again, I have no problem with the player exchange. It just seems to me that we (apparently) thought we could "win now" with these players, but the clay feet on that statue was the reliance on JT & JO's health. Now, effectively, we've put ourselves over the luxury tax next year (almost certainly) and restricted our finances for at least a year or two (more) for what effectively are two solid, but unspectacular players and what looks like a bust.

duke dynamite
04-09-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm content with Troy and Dun Dun besides the fact that neither one is really a defensive threat, but that can be focused on this summer.

NuffSaid
04-11-2008, 01:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKsr4L9lh0&NR=1

This is still funny to me.
I love that video! Just shows Dun-Dun can get a head of steam if you tic him off bad enough. You just gotta love the guy. :p

d_c
04-11-2008, 01:29 PM
I love that video! Just shows Dun-Dun can get a head of steam if you tic him off bad enough. You just gotta love the guy. :p


That was hilarious and I still laugh everytime I watch that.

Was a pretty horrific call by the ref too, lol.

Speed
04-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Reason #152,424 that I'm glad SJ is gone. Watching about a quarter of Golden States biggest game of the year with Denver last night. 1 on 4 (not four on 1, mind you) Jax pulls up from 3, he hits it actually, but thats not the point. The announcers say, he's 5 of 28 in his last (I can't remember many how games exactly) and pulls up for a 3 pointer on a 1 on 4 fast break..... Again, it doesn't matter that he hit it, it matters that he doesn't know not to take it, unless your name is Reggie Miller, maybe.

grace
04-11-2008, 02:55 PM
\The announcers say, he's 5 of 28 in his last (I can't remember many how games exactly) and pulls up for a 3 pointer on a 1 on 4 fast break..... Again, it doesn't matter that he hit it, it matters that he doesn't know not to take it, unless your name is Reggie Miller, maybe.


For all we know Nellie's been telling him to keep shooting. Nellie's kind of weird that way.

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 03:19 PM
Reason #152,424 that I'm glad SJ is gone. Watching about a quarter of Golden States biggest game of the year with Denver last night. 1 on 4 (not four on 1, mind you) Jax pulls up from 3, he hits it actually, but thats not the point. The announcers say, he's 5 of 28 in his last (I can't remember many how games exactly) and pulls up for a 3 pointer on a 1 on 4 fast break..... Again, it doesn't matter that he hit it, it matters that he doesn't know not to take it, unless your name is Reggie Miller, maybe.
First off, how many shots did he take in the 4th? 3, and not a single attempt after the 7:30 mark (start of 4th, in lane miss, hit the 3, missed a 3, done). He was 3-11 in the first half, 2-6 in the 2nd, so basically half the attempts.

And depite his poor shooting, his 3 makes and his getting to the line got his points per attempt over 1.00, which while nothing to write home about is certainly acceptable by bad shooting night standards.


Second, did you miss the assists he got down the stretch? He was one of the few players working within the system. It was Ellis a little bit and Azubacrazy that hurt them with less "thoughtful" scoring attempts. Azuba hit 2 buckets, both off Jackson assists in the final 4, the last 2 FGs the Warriors made in the game.

To me Jack has remained exactly the same. All his "maturing" is crap, but this doesn't mean he's bad now but rather that he never was. This is his game. He shot a lot and missed a lot on some nights, but he never got credit for backing off his shot when it went south.

Typically Jack is EXPECTED to shoot 12-15 times. He's the freaking SG and he has been putting the 3 in at a decent rate. Lord knows I've never heard a fan rip on Jordan for shooting the 3 with his 30% shot.

So Jack had a rough first half. Tried to check in and help in the 2nd half but didn't force his action when it was clear it wasn't there. Shooters shoot...that's what Elgin and every other Pacers fan said on any night that Reggie went 5-18.

Also Jackson hit 5 fouls and yet came back in and play a huge chunk down the stretch without fouling out, and this included GOOD defense rather than the ole crap we have in Indy right now with guys sporting 1 foul in the 4th.



This stuff is just nuts, guy gets 7 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals vs 3 TOs and it's a sign of why you are glad he's gone.


It's not so much a love of Jackson, though when he's focused like he was last night he's got a nice overall game, but rather my concern about which current Pacer this brilliant logic will be brought down upon next. How long before the water hole is soured on Dunleavy or Granger or 2008 draft pick?

Then suddenly anything that was previously fine, any aspect that is identical to a current fav player, will suddenly become proof of how horrible they are. I mean Foster is already fending off some of these kinds of rumblings, yet every national situation in which he's mentioned people are raving about him.

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 03:33 PM
Kaufman is right, that's what I'm always trying to get to here.

Look, there is an insane amount of unreasonableness in Pacers land. That's how a team fighting for the 8th spot and putting out a lineup of Diener, Dun, Granger, Foster, Murphy can be thugs not worth the time of day.

I mean match the REAL team and the REAL minutes played with the casual fans view. Like many of you I had to explain to a guy the other night that Tinsley hadn't played in months. He didn't know who Diener was or who was on the team at all really.

But he sure knew they were a bunch of thugs. Why? Because that's the only stories they put on the front page of the Star. Doesn't have to be that way, but obviously someone over there thinks that's the way to sell papers. The local TV news is the same way.



And I like Kaufman talking about the mentality, about the damage done to fans. I think it's more than just that, I think it's a combo of 2 items.

1) brawl, we took it to heart, got defensive about it and then Ron's trade, Tins/JO's injuries and Jackson's Rio thing took away our chance to get back at people (ahem, Stern, John Green, Pistons fans in general, etc).

So that caused fans to turn on their own if you will, feeling betrayed. It stopped being based on reason and stopped being us vs them.

2) history of high level of winning. When they made their first ECF the Pacers had a celebration at City Market. Then they did it again the next year after losing in the ECF.

Hands up, who remembers the party at City Market after the ECF loss to the Pistons? Exactly. It's called SPOILED.

There was a time that the Star put out a massive extra Pacers section titled "We're just wild about Larry (Brown)", including special yellow and blue ink. Rick was a top 5 COY candidate twice with Indy, but he didn't get this kind of response from the news or the fans. What didn't he do that Larry did? ECF with a team stuck in first round losses. Again, SPOILED.


So a bunch of overpriviledged (by a reasonable expectation of winning) fans feel hurt and betrayed by the team and the fanbase goes into an unreasonable POV from then on.

What was not only acceptable, but CELEBRATED when Dale or Tony or Reggie did it (fighting, getting in a refs face, talking smack to fans DURING a game) become the horrible sign of out of control thugs. IDENTICAL behavior, but since it was viewed from a "we should win" view instead of "they'll never get out of the first round" view it was treated differently. Back then they lost so much and got so little respect that the fans still had that us vs the world view.

This isn't about Jack or Tins or JO, they don't care to see Danny Granger or Mike Dunleavy either. That's not reasonable thinking. It should be us (with Danny and co) vs the world, or at least the Hawks for now.

Shade
04-11-2008, 03:35 PM
"Clutch" Jack came up awfully small in the Warriors' two biggest games this season.

Speed
04-11-2008, 03:36 PM
First off, how many shots did he take in the 4th? 3, and not a single attempt after the 7:30 mark (start of 4th, in lane miss, hit the 3, missed a 3, done). He was 3-11 in the first half, 2-6 in the 2nd, so basically half the attempts.

And depite his poor shooting, his 3 makes and his getting to the line got his points per attempt over 1.00, which while nothing to write home about is certainly acceptable by bad shooting night standards.


Second, did you miss the assists he got down the stretch? He was one of the few players working within the system. It was Ellis a little bit and Azubacrazy that hurt them with less "thoughtful" scoring attempts. Azuba hit 2 buckets, both off Jackson assists in the final 4, the last 2 FGs the Warriors made in the game.

To me Jack has remained exactly the same. All his "maturing" is crap, but this doesn't mean he's bad now but rather that he never was. This is his game. He shot a lot and missed a lot on some nights, but he never got credit for backing off his shot when it went south.

Typically Jack is EXPECTED to shoot 12-15 times. He's the freaking SG and he has been putting the 3 in at a decent rate. Lord knows I've never heard a fan rip on Jordan for shooting the 3 with his 30% shot.

So Jack had a rough first half. Tried to check in and help in the 2nd half but didn't force his action when it was clear it wasn't there. Shooters shoot...that's what Elgin and every other Pacers fan said on any night that Reggie went 5-18.

Also Jackson hit 5 fouls and yet came back in and play a huge chunk down the stretch without fouling out, and this included GOOD defense rather than the ole crap we have in Indy right now with guys sporting 1 foul in the 4th.



This stuff is just nuts, guy gets 7 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals vs 3 TOs and it's a sign of why you are glad he's gone.


It's not so much a love of Jackson, though when he's focused like he was last night he's got a nice overall game, but rather my concern about which current Pacer this brilliant logic will be brought down upon next. How long before the water hole is soured on Dunleavy or Granger or 2008 draft pick?

Then suddenly anything that was previously fine, any aspect that is identical to a current fav player, will suddenly become proof of how horrible they are. I mean Foster is already fending off some of these kinds of rumblings, yet every national situation in which he's mentioned people are raving about him.

I've watched probably a grand total of a quarter and a half of Stephen Jackson this year, over two games. Both times I saw him doing the same stuff that isn't good basketball, its that simple.

Its the same stuff he did when he was here, that I didn't like him then, I don't like now.

Maybe he's changed and I just caught him in a bad quarter and a half, I doubt it.

I am soooo glad he's not here or any player who won't get back on defense when he doesn't get a foul call at the other end or jacks up a 3 on a 4 on 1 fast break.

Its okay for me to not like his game, right? He's not the only one I don't like.

Shade
04-11-2008, 03:45 PM
Jack, Ron, JO, Tinsley, etc. each let their emotions have a NEGATIVE impact on their play. Reggie would at least draw off of that emotion and get better. With the aforementioned four, it leads to mental breakdowns. And when you have anywhere from 1-4 players breaking down on the court all the time, it leads to chaos.

Jack doesn't get back on defense and leaves his teammates hanging. Artest gets a stupid foul/technical foul/ejection at a critical juncture. JO thinks he's being disrespected and lets it get into his head, leading to him forcing things on offense. Tinsley turns into streetballer Mel-Mel and makes a ton of stupid, costly mistakes. Add in the constant off-court issues and it's easy to see why the fans don't like these guys. And it has little to do with being "spoiled."

d_c
04-11-2008, 05:14 PM
For all we know Nellie's been telling him to keep shooting. Nellie's kind of weird that way.

Believe me when I say I find a lot about Nellie's tactics that I disagree with but the bottom line is the bottom line: He gets his teams to overachieve and this year was no exception. He's going to get at least 47 wins in the west out of a team with no all-star and Stephen Jackson as the 2nd best player and a very shallow bench. It's not really that talented of a team.

And for those who love to hate, Stephen Jackson had a very good season. He was asked to do way more than you would normally ask someone of his talent level to do at both ends of the floor. He played hurt and beat up. And for most of the year, he did it all very well.

He just ran out of gas at the end.

Shade
04-11-2008, 07:56 PM
Just FYI, this season, Jack is shooting 40.5% from the floor, 36.7% from three-point range. Dun is shooting 47.6% from the floor, and 42.2% from behind the arc.

Al is at 43.5% and 37.5%. Murph is 45%/39.2%.

Dece
04-11-2008, 08:00 PM
Dunleavy is still a defensive liability, while Jack is the best defender on that team. He would also be the best defender on this team. Just fyi.

Shade
04-11-2008, 08:02 PM
Dunleavy is still a defensive liability, while Jack is the best defender on that team. He would also be the best defender on this team. Just fyi.

True, but is it good/consistent enough to make up for a difference of 7% shooting on offense? In the three games I've seen GS play this season, Jack's defense hasn't exactly been impressive, and he still looks prone to just not play D at times.

ajbry
04-11-2008, 08:16 PM
Believe me when I say I find a lot about Nellie's tactics that I disagree with but the bottom line is the bottom line: He gets his teams to overachieve and this year was no exception. He's going to get at least 47 wins in the west out of a team with no all-star and Stephen Jackson as the 2nd best player and a very shallow bench. It's not really that talented of a team.

And for those who love to hate, Stephen Jackson had a very good season. He was asked to do way more than you would normally ask someone of his talent level to do at both ends of the floor. He played hurt and beat up. And for most of the year, he did it all very well.

He just ran out of gas at the end.

Couldn't have said it better. Clear and concise.

d_c
04-12-2008, 12:16 AM
I've started working on my post for the Stephen Jackson trolls over at the IndyStar board, and I wanted to know which title you fine folks preferred....

A) From Arguing Calls to Lotto Balls - The Stephen Jackson Story

B) From Jail Cell to Lotto Hell - The Stephen Jackson Story

C) No More Dishin', He's Gone Fishin' - The Stephen Jackson Story

I'm a little torn right now.

Since you're the chief tanking proponent around here, let me rub it in on you: We jumped from the #23 pick to the #14 pick in a matter of one night, which means we won't be picking in a much worse than you. Eat that. LOL.

And imagine if Atlanta somehow chokes and you make the playoffs. There's your very own personal tanking nightmare. Promise you won't jump off a bridge if that happens.

Hicks
04-12-2008, 12:21 AM
Don't waste your time.

d_c
04-12-2008, 12:30 AM
I'm just joking around too, man. It's all in good fun. I never take a message board too seriously.

grace
04-12-2008, 02:06 PM
Changing the subject: Brad Miller is so beloved in Sacramento that everyone sitting at the scorers table last night was wearing headbands in tribute to Brad after his elbow surgery. Brad was sitting with the team, but strangely enough he wasn't wearing a headband. I guess he decided it didn't go with his suit. :crazy:

duke dynamite
04-12-2008, 02:18 PM
Knowing Stern, he probably wasn't allowed to wear it unless we was in uniform...

ajbry
04-12-2008, 02:21 PM
Fun tidbit... it's "Stephen Jackson Day" in San Francisco today.

aceace
04-12-2008, 04:20 PM
This started as a friendly "look whats happening now" thread. It was meant more as a look at how quickly fans can turn on players. It was never meant to be a "we hate Jackson" thread. I don't wish or want for bad things to happen to Jax or Al. I don't think anyone at PD does. IMHO in no way do I think that Jax is better than Dunleavy. Both bring a different game. Regardless of both Danny and Mike playing the same position, it does not make a contract bad. Both have started all season and are interchangeable. Dun handles the SG just fine because he is a ball handler, he's also more difficult to block because of his height. With Jobs offense, having both is a major benefit because both shoot the 3 decent. Reggie was a career 43-44% 3 pt fg and thats right where Dun is.