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sweabs
06-07-2004, 10:44 AM
f

Fool
06-07-2004, 11:03 AM
There is not much there, other than the writer's opinion, that suggests Artest will be moved. Seems more like a "They are looking to deal Harrington, I think they should move Artest" article. Always nice to see what other cities think though.

sweabs
06-07-2004, 11:06 AM
f

Dukins
06-07-2004, 11:12 AM
Eddie Curry is the only guy worth looking into on the bulls roster.

sweabs
06-07-2004, 11:17 AM
f

MSA2CF
06-07-2004, 12:09 PM
Hinrich will be putting up even better numbers next season...Look out for this kid!

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 12:14 PM
Keep in mind Chicago has absolutely no interest in bringing back Artest. The sentiment up here is that we were fortunate to squeeze one year of (mostly) good behavior out of him.

The idea of Artest returning to the Windy City would be about as well recieved as Hick's 'wacky' idea to bring Jalen back to the Pacers.

Sam Smith is a hack. But since I agree with him this time then I'm not sure what that makes me?

:P

Hicks
06-07-2004, 12:17 PM
Sam Smith is a hack. But since I agree with him this time then I'm not sure what that makes me?

:P

A hacky. Much like a lacky who follows a leader of a pack, but in this case that leaders' a hack. So, you become a hacky. Yes.

:laugh:

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 12:28 PM
Sam Smith is a hack. But since I agree with him this time then I'm not sure what that makes me?

:P

A hacky. Much like a lacky who follows a leader of a pack, but in this case that leaders' a hack. So, you become a hacky. Yes.

:laugh:

Leave it to Hicks to answer my 'rhetorical' question. :punch:

:D

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 12:34 PM
Maybe I should move out of the country to some remote location where there is not any NBA news, because all these "trade Artest" posts, ideas, stories are killing me.

there is a part of me a very small part of me, maybe 1%, that says fine trade the guy and then let's watch game after game of small forwards kill the Pacers once again. And watch the Pacers play games without the necessary intensity to win.

On the other hand I said late last summer that Bird and Carlisle owe it to themselves, the franchise and the city to keep Ronnie for one year and see if they can deal with him, maybe they can't.

The reason why I like Artest so much is because he wins games, that is all I care about.


Jay, I have been surprised to read so many negative Artest comments from you, until about a week ago I never knew you did not like or trust the guy. is this new, or have I been blocking it out

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 01:45 PM
Maybe I should move out of the country to some remote location where there is not any NBA news, because all these "trade Artest" posts, ideas, stories are killing me.

there is a part of me a very small part of me, maybe 1%, that says fine trade the guy and then let's watch game after game of small forwards kill the Pacers once again. And watch the Pacers play games without the necessary intensity to win.

On the other hand I said late last summer that Bird and Carlisle owe it to themselves, the franchise and the city to keep Ronnie for one year and see if they can deal with him, maybe they can't.

The reason why I like Artest so much is because he wins games, that is all I care about.


Jay, I have been surprised to read so many negative Artest comments from you, until about a week ago I never knew you did not like or trust the guy. is this new, or have I been blocking it out

Exactly. It befuddles me when people keep putting down Artest. Without him, there is no 61 wins. No matter who we have. I am likely to think there is no 50 either. The guy has a tremendous work ethic and WANTS to win BADLY. There aren't too many people out there with his tenacity.

Harddrive7
06-07-2004, 02:10 PM
Well regardless of what we do or who we trade, I sure as heck hope that we don't just sit on our hands until the last minute. We actually have some players, with some value to deal. I don't want us to stretch this out too long then get stuck with another project.

IOW, I hope that Bird moves faster than Walsh.

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Well regardless of what we do or who we trade, I sure as heck hope that we don't just sit on our hands until the last minute. We actually have some players, with some value to deal. I don't want us to stretch this out too long then get stuck with another project.

IOW, I hope that Bird moves faster than Walsh.

Well, we honestly cannot do anything until mid July

Harddrive7
06-07-2004, 02:14 PM
Well regardless of what we do or who we trade, I sure as heck hope that we don't just sit on our hands until the last minute. We actually have some players, with some value to deal. I don't want us to stretch this out too long then get stuck with another project.

IOW, I hope that Bird moves faster than Walsh.

Well, we honestly cannot do anything until mid July


Well yeah, just saying...

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 02:16 PM
Well regardless of what we do or who we trade, I sure as heck hope that we don't just sit on our hands until the last minute. We actually have some players, with some value to deal. I don't want us to stretch this out too long then get stuck with another project.

IOW, I hope that Bird moves faster than Walsh.

Well, we honestly cannot do anything until mid July


Well yeah, just saying...


Of course ;) I just hope they don't keep it in silence like they do EVERY year...

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 02:48 PM
You won't see alot til around the 20th til the last week of July , then it will pickup and people will be doing trades and such , so we got awhile to wait before we find out what's real and which direction we are going to take. Bird said he has had a year to watch this team and knows what we need to do for changes , I am really excited to see what Bird has on his mind :)

Sam Smith , his commentary is worth about this much ----> :twocents:

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 03:11 PM
Jay, I have been surprised to read so many negative Artest comments from you, until about a week ago I never knew you did not like or trust the guy. is this new, or have I been blocking it out

I think there are several things at play here...

(1) I made a vow with myself to focus on Ron's 'game' this season. In past seasons... well when he played for the Bulls, I spent most of my time laughing at him and the poor Bulls fans up here (both of them :devil: ) because of the goofy and disruptive things he did (BTW, when Sam Smith says " Artest had missed practices the previous days with migraine headaches, which he often gets." its a wink-wink-nudge-nudge reference to Ron's reputation with Bulls fans for faking injuries when things don't go his way), and after he was traded to the Pacers I've been too mad at him to even pay attention to what skills he brings to the table. I needed to take a season and figure out, for myself, why he was even in the league. I've learned he's a helluva ballplayer. For most of the season, I've been fairly happy with him, and I've gone out of my way to praise his performance many times, however...

(2) The last six minutes of Game #6 really, really, really made me mad. And I'm not referring to the flagrant foul - it was a stupid and unnecessary play by Ron; a stupid and unnecessary call by the official; and ultimately, its stupid and unnecessary for Pacers fans to blame the loss on just that one play. However, I'm still p!$$ed off about all of the one-on-five crap followed by the postgame comments. And then when I was focused on that, I thought of a few other times this season when his actions seemed to fall under the 'conduct detrimental to winning' banner.

(3) The number of posters making a compelling case for keeping Ron far outweighed the number of posters making compelling cases for trading Ron. According to the consensus around here, keeping Ron is a no-brainer, warts and all (unless trading Ron is the *only* way we can get McGrady). I'm not convinced that keeping Ron is truly a no-brainer (and I'm not convinced that DW and Bird think its a no-brainer, either) so I thought I'd lend a hand to other side of the argument to help balance it out. :cool:

Ragnar
06-07-2004, 03:13 PM
I read an article in the Chicago paper a while back (before they traded Jalen) that they should try to revisit that trade and get Ron back and send Jalen our way. Their point was that we needed scoring (and we do) and they needed Ron (and they do). Of course had we done that UncleBuck would have jumped off a bridge and I would have at least considered it.

fwpacerfan
06-07-2004, 04:15 PM
Jay, I have been surprised to read so many negative Artest comments from you, until about a week ago I never knew you did not like or trust the guy. is this new, or have I been blocking it out

I think there are several things at play here...

(1) I made a vow with myself to focus on Ron's 'game' this season. In past seasons... well when he played for the Bulls, I spent most of my time laughing at him and the poor Bulls fans up here (both of them :devil: ) because of the goofy and disruptive things he did (BTW, when Sam Smith says " Artest had missed practices the previous days with migraine headaches, which he often gets." its a wink-wink-nudge-nudge reference to Ron's reputation with Bulls fans for faking injuries when things don't go his way), and after he was traded to the Pacers I've been too mad at him to even pay attention to what skills he brings to the table. I needed to take a season and figure out, for myself, why he was even in the league. I've learned he's a helluva ballplayer. For most of the season, I've been fairly happy with him, and I've gone out of my way to praise his performance many times, however...

(2) The last six minutes of Game #6 really, really, really made me mad. And I'm not referring to the flagrant foul - it was a stupid and unnecessary play by Ron; a stupid and unnecessary call by the official; and ultimately, its stupid and unnecessary for Pacers fans to blame the loss on just that one play. However, I'm still p!$$ed off about all of the one-on-five crap followed by the postgame comments. And then when I was focused on that, I thought of a few other times this season when his actions seemed to fall under the 'conduct detrimental to winning' banner.

(3) The number of posters making a compelling case for keeping Ron far outweighed the number of posters making compelling cases for trading Ron. According to the consensus around here, keeping Ron is a no-brainer, warts and all (unless trading Ron is the *only* way we can get McGrady). I'm not convinced that keeping Ron is truly a no-brainer (and I'm not convinced that DW and Bird think its a no-brainer, either) so I thought I'd lend a hand to other side of the argument to help balance it out. :cool:

So if I read your comments correctly you are saying that you focused on Artest's game ALL SEASON - really found little to complain about but now he had a bad game and you are piling on? I don't get it. I know you are a 'glass is half empty' fan, but come on. You change your stance of the whole season based on one game?

If this team trades Artest they are downright stupid (unless they get Kobe or McGrady in return). I find it baffling that people want to put the game 6 loss and ultimately the whole series on Artest's shoulders. Like I said last year when most around here wanted to run Artest out of town - he is vital to this team. Last year the argument was - "Ron's suspensions cost this team - we need him on the floor so we need to trade him!" That is talking out of both sides of your mouth. This team DOES need him. The Detroit series proved that. If Ron played in control and was effective offensively, the Pacers win easily. He wasn't and they lost. Trading him would mean he would NEVER be there to help the team.

rabid
06-07-2004, 04:49 PM
One thing we seem to forget, folks, is Ron's salary. For a DPOY he's a bargain. In fact, he's only the 6th-highest paid player on the team, above Reggie and below SCOT POLLARD :o .

I wonder if there's another player out there in the 5-6 million range that would give us top-quality defense AND 18 ppg. I seriously doubt it.

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 04:55 PM
Jay, I have been surprised to read so many negative Artest comments from you, until about a week ago I never knew you did not like or trust the guy. is this new, or have I been blocking it out

I think there are several things at play here...

(1) I made a vow with myself to focus on Ron's 'game' this season.
-snip-
I've learned he's a helluva ballplayer. For most of the season, I've been fairly happy with him, and I've gone out of my way to praise his performance many times, however...

(2) The last six minutes of Game #6 really, really, really made me mad. -snip- I'm still p!$$ed off about all of the one-on-five crap followed by the postgame comments. And then when I was focused on that, I thought of a few other times this season when his actions seemed to fall under the 'conduct detrimental to winning' banner.



So if I read your comments correctly you are saying that you focused on Artest's game ALL SEASON - really found little to complain about but now he had a bad game and you are piling on? I don't get it. I know you are a 'glass is half empty' fan, but come on. You change your stance of the whole season based on one game?

-snip- If Ron played in control and was effective offensively, the Pacers win easily. He wasn't and they lost. Trading him would mean he would NEVER be there to help the team.

Fair points, let me explain.

First, I've been impressed with his play this season, and his ability to stay away from league-imposed suspensions. But I think we could find a few places throughout PD where I've voiced concerns about his selfishness.

Second, I'm willing to throw out the entire regular season as irrelevant. I don't think I'm basing it all on one game, but what game was more important this season than Game #6 in Detroit? It carries extra weight.

And, if they trade Ron, they never have to worry about him playing out of control and selfishly ever again. :devil: Its a tradeoff, does the number of games his play helps you win offset the number of games his selfish behavior makes you lose? And if the selfish behavior costs you vital games in the playoffs, how much extra weight do you give that against his help winning less-important games.

And yes, I'm a 'glass is 10% empty guy' ( :blush: ), but some of my posts on this topic have been exaggerated because, for a while, nobody else seemed interested in considering the possibility. I'm not really that fickel, I just felt there was a need to make some strong points here that were being overlooked by many.

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 04:56 PM
As always Jay, you make too much sense, and you did a great job of concentrating on Ron's game this past season because I had no idea the way you thought about Ron.

Don't you think, as one of his biggest fans he frustrates me from time to time. He does. But he is such a good ball player, offensively and defensively, and he has shown so much improvement in his game and in his behavior. Now I don't know what happened in the Pistons series, he did sorta wierd out, I saw it on the bench in games 2 and games 5, and I reported such in this forum.

if they do trade him they better get a great player, and they better trade him for a good reason, reasons we don't know about

fwpacerfan
06-07-2004, 05:01 PM
One thing we seem to forget, folks, is Ron's salary. For a DPOY he's a bargain. In fact, he's only the 6th-highest paid player on the team, above Reggie and below SCOT POLLARD :o .

I wonder if there's another player out there in the 5-6 million range that would give us top-quality defense AND 18 ppg. I seriously doubt it.

This is a great point. I keep forgetting what a bargain he is. He's also signed for 4 more years I believe.

Hicks
06-07-2004, 05:17 PM
One thing we seem to forget, folks, is Ron's salary. For a DPOY he's a bargain. In fact, he's only the 6th-highest paid player on the team, above Reggie and below SCOT POLLARD :o .

I wonder if there's another player out there in the 5-6 million range that would give us top-quality defense AND 18 ppg. I seriously doubt it.

This is a great point. I keep forgetting what a bargain he is. He's also signed for 4 more years I believe.

FIVE. :o

6 year extension, took effect this season. If they hadn't signed him to the 6 year extension, he would have been a free agent last summer along with JO and Brad and Reggie. That would have been... bad. :laugh:

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 05:43 PM
As always Jay, you make too much sense, and you did a great job of concentrating on Ron's game this past season because I had no idea the way you thought about Ron.

Don't you think, as one of his biggest fans he frustrates me from time to time. He does. But he is such a good ball player, offensively and defensively, and he has shown so much improvement in his game and in his behavior. Now I don't know what happened in the Pistons series, he did sorta wierd out, I saw it on the bench in games 2 and games 5, and I reported such in this forum.

if they do trade him they better get a great player, and they better trade him for a good reason, reasons we don't know about

I was about to lay into him during pre-season game #1, but I decided to let the new regime have some time with him first. Yes, their approach worked far better than Isiah's 'enabling' approach, but the timing of this most-recent meltdown really tripped my alarms.

I'm tired of blasting him. I've made my point and its either been heard or its never going to be heard. :cool:

If we could just find a surgeon that could transplant Chris Mullin's brain into Ron's body, then I'm sure we'd all agree that these conversations would never happen again, (and we'd have two MVP candidates.)

Alabama-Redneck
06-07-2004, 05:59 PM
I usually don't get into these finger pointing threads but on this one I am going to make an exception.

Putting the blame on Artest for game 6 may or may not be correct and saying it is "THE" most important game of the year is crazy.

What makes game 6 any more important than the losses in games 2, 3, and 5. We win any of those games and game 6 is only the game leading up to game 7.

Who is to blame for games 2, 3, and 5. Could we say Al and Reggie for game 2. JO and AL for game 3 and JO, Reggie and Austin for game 5.

Is that enough to wipe out the season for those players. Probably not.

You talk about Ron going outside the offense, is that any worse than JO taking a pass, faking 3-4 times, looking at a double or triple team waiting for him and then trying to drive for a pullup jump shot that gets blocked or the ball is stripped from him.

If that is in the confines of the offense, then the plays need to be revisited. I think there is enough blame for everybody to have their fair share.

Yes, there should be some changes made but don't destroy the nucleus of this team. Al leaving is not good but probably neccesary. Beyond that only minor moves should be made.

Of course, please remember, these are my opinions and in my mind they are always correct. :D :dance: :pepper: :cool:

LAPacer
06-07-2004, 06:02 PM
I usually don't get into these finger pointing threads but on this one I am going to make an exception.

Putting the blame on Artest for game 6 may or may not be correct and saying it is "THE" most important game of the year is crazy.

What makes game 6 any more important than the losses in games 2, 3, and 5. We win any of those games and game 6 is only the game leading up to game 7.

Who is to blame for games 2, 3, and 5. Could we say Al and Reggie for game 2. JO and AL for game 3 and JO, Reggie and Austin for game 5.

Is that enough to wipe out the season for those players. Probably not.

You talk about Ron going outside the offense, is that any worse than JO taking a pass, faking 3-4 times, looking at a double or triple team waiting for him and then trying to drive for a pullup jump shot that gets blocked or the ball is stripped from him.

If that is in the confines of the offense, then the plays need to be revisited. I think there is enough blame for everybody to have their fair share.

Yes, there should be some changes made but don't destroy the nucleus of this team. Al leaving is not good but probably neccesary. Beyond that only minor moves should be made.

Of course, please remember, these are my opinions and in my mind they are always correct. :D :dance: :pepper: :cool:

DITTO

sweabs
06-07-2004, 07:49 PM
If we could just find a surgeon that could transplant Chris Mullin's brain into Ron's body, then I'm sure we'd all agree that these conversations would never happen again, (and we'd have two MVP candidates.)

And Golden State would have one terrible GM! :laugh:

Suaveness
06-08-2004, 09:30 AM
I usually don't get into these finger pointing threads but on this one I am going to make an exception.

Putting the blame on Artest for game 6 may or may not be correct and saying it is "THE" most important game of the year is crazy.

What makes game 6 any more important than the losses in games 2, 3, and 5. We win any of those games and game 6 is only the game leading up to game 7.

Who is to blame for games 2, 3, and 5. Could we say Al and Reggie for game 2. JO and AL for game 3 and JO, Reggie and Austin for game 5.

Is that enough to wipe out the season for those players. Probably not.

You talk about Ron going outside the offense, is that any worse than JO taking a pass, faking 3-4 times, looking at a double or triple team waiting for him and then trying to drive for a pullup jump shot that gets blocked or the ball is stripped from him.

If that is in the confines of the offense, then the plays need to be revisited. I think there is enough blame for everybody to have their fair share.

Yes, there should be some changes made but don't destroy the nucleus of this team. Al leaving is not good but probably neccesary. Beyond that only minor moves should be made.

Of course, please remember, these are my opinions and in my mind they are always correct. :D :dance: :pepper: :cool:

:nod: