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Peck
06-07-2004, 05:11 AM
he is relagated to our third option on offense?

Let's assume for a min. that Al & (fill in the blank) are traded for a guard who fills the need. Somebody who can stick the outside jumper & can create his own shot.

Would Ron be satisfied with being the third scoring option?

Does winning sooth all wounds & would he gladly accept it if the team were winning?

I was wondering this yesterday.

Let's actually take a vote on this.

How many of you think Ron would do whatever was best for the team & gladly fall in line for a better shooter?

How many of you think that Ron would go with whatever mood struck him based on good & bad times?

How many of you think that Ron would hate & would eventually revolt from an offensive system that got him less shots a game than he gets now?

able
06-07-2004, 06:28 AM
Considering the fact that he only takes a lot of shots if the team "runs bad" i.e. the offense is not firing on all cylinders.
Considering he gladly passes off to "open" players of JO (see his Assist)
Considering winning is ALL important to Ron
Considering his strength and pride lies in defense, not offense, and
Considering he has never said he wanted to be 1st or 2nd option, he only said(says) that they should go to him when things are on the line.

I think Ron does not care one bit if he were 5th option in offense, providing the others "do their job".

His assistnumbers wouldn't be where they are if he were unwilling to share, unlike some.

It is more the blackhole mentality on some on the team that he is objecting to and then he says that he is a better option (which happens to be true).

Ron's only "revolt" from the offense has been one shared by the others on the team, they feel they can do a lot more then half-court grind out.

Yes, with Tins this team can run, something we missed more then most of you are considering against Detroit, we simply did not have our speed in the offense, resulting in a ready defense, and grindout play that does not really work against Detroit.

Ron merely tried to force in some games and not in others, what no one seems to notice is that A. a lot of Ron's shots are "winding down shotclock shots", B. When we win he takes more then when we lose:


Detroit series: Game 1 win, 6 - 23, Game 2 Loss, 5 - 21, Game 3 Loss, 4 - 13, Game 4 Win, 8 - 19, Game 5 Loss, 4 - 15, Game 6 Loss, 4 - 13

Ron does sometimes (a lot of times) save us, he creates when all else fails and then often "saves the day" he is not the type of player that demands shots, or turns into a black hole.

He averages 3.2 Ast over the Playoffs, #3 on the team.

indygeezer
06-07-2004, 07:07 AM
At times Ron also turns into an overgrown Travis Best. Holding the ball at the 3-point arch trying to figure out what to do with the ball until it is almost too late. I like Ron, but he helps stagnate the offense sometimes. Now maybe this is partially his teamates blame and partially the offensive set's balme, but I'd sure like to see more ball movement out there and less "thinking about it".

However, I don't think he'd care about being, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th option as long as we win. But I also fear that in a tight crucial game he may revert back to the guy we say in game 6 who broke off plays and decided he knew best how to win the game.

Will Galen
06-07-2004, 07:41 AM
he is relagated to our third option on offense?

Let's assume for a min. that Al & (fill in the blank) are traded for a guard who fills the need. Somebody who can stick the outside jumper & can create his own shot.

Would Ron be satisfied with being the third scoring option?

No, but I don't think he would be. To get Tmac, Pierce, or Allen we would have to give up Ron. Those are the only guys I can think of that would get more shots than him. Remember Carlisle likes to work inside out, so most guards are going to get less shots.

Does winning sooth all wounds & would he gladly accept it if the team were winning?

I was wondering this yesterday.

Let's actually take a vote on this.

How many of you think Ron would do whatever was best for the team & gladly fall in line for a better shooter?

How many of you think that Ron would go with whatever mood struck him based on good & bad times?
More or less this option. Ron is strong willed. As long as the team is winning he doesn't complain because winning is what he's about. When the team is losing Ron tries to do more and goes off on his own.
How many of you think that Ron would hate & would eventually revolt from an offensive system that got him less shots a game than he gets now?

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 08:47 AM
I would like to nominate able's post for "post of the year". No, make that post of the century.

As much as I would like to add something, there is nothing to add, adjust or comment on what able has posted.

Except to say those are my thoughts exactly.


While everyone is answering Peck's very good question. Let me ask a related question.

How will Harrington react if he is the third option? Well we can easily answer that question because we saw how he reacted this past season. Granted he will be starting

sweabs
06-07-2004, 09:37 AM
I am going back and forth on the Artest subject - but he is my favourite player and I would hate to see him go.

I think that he will continue to mature as a player, and develop the same as he did this year. Assuming this happens, and Ron realizes that the new SG has a great shot and should be seen as a second option, I think he could accept the role as a 3rd option.

I can't bare to lose what led Ron to be my favourite player nowadays - his desire to win and his intensity on the floor. Defense is a big part of our team, and taking Ron out of the defensive framework completely changes things. I believe that if a new 2nd option comes to our team - Ron's desire to win will prevail - causing things to work out nicely.

SkipperZ
06-07-2004, 09:52 AM
Ron SHOULD be the third option on offense... He is great at some things offensively, but skillwise (purely offensively), he is about the level of a third scorer on most other good teams...

He would still be the second (or at some stretches first) most valuable player on the team, and would still get his opportunities to score... His ability to get to the basket, draw a foul, create his own opportunities and occasionally hit the jumper are too great for him not to get chances, but the reason why the pacers arent in the finals is because he is not skilled enough to be that second option....

if you consider the premiere teams of the league...

Detroit - Chauncey
LA - Malone
Minnesota - Sprewell
NJN - Jefferson
SAC - Bibby
Spurs - Ginobilli

these are who I would consider to be 3rd options...

I would say offensively Ron is on par with these players...

If we got someone who could be that second option, without losing Ron and JO (preferrably keeping Foster and Tinsley as well unless suitable replacements are found), I would have to say we should be the favorites to win the championship next year.

For example if we were able to pull off a miracle trade of Al, Freddie, Croshere/Pollard and 2 first rounders for TMAc, I think the championship is ours to lose...

Hicks
06-07-2004, 11:50 AM
I think Ron would do fine as the third option. He'd still get looks/touches/shots. Not as many, but if we're a winning team I don't think he'll care much. Not enough to throw a fit.

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 11:58 AM
Considering the fact that he only takes a lot of shots if the team "runs bad" i.e. the offense is not firing on all cylinders.
Considering he gladly passes off to "open" players of JO (see his Assist)
Considering winning is ALL important to Ron
Considering his strength and pride lies in defense, not offense, and
Considering he has never said he wanted to be 1st or 2nd option, he only said(says) that they should go to him when things are on the line.

I think Ron does not care one bit if he were 5th option in offense, providing the others "do their job".

His assistnumbers wouldn't be where they are if he were unwilling to share, unlike some.

It is more the blackhole mentality on some on the team that he is objecting to and then he says that he is a better option (which happens to be true).

Ron's only "revolt" from the offense has been one shared by the others on the team, they feel they can do a lot more then half-court grind out.

Yes, with Tins this team can run, something we missed more then most of you are considering against Detroit, we simply did not have our speed in the offense, resulting in a ready defense, and grindout play that does not really work against Detroit.

Ron merely tried to force in some games and not in others, what no one seems to notice is that A. a lot of Ron's shots are "winding down shotclock shots", B. When we win he takes more then when we lose:


Detroit series: Game 1 win, 6 - 23, Game 2 Loss, 5 - 21, Game 3 Loss, 4 - 13, Game 4 Win, 8 - 19, Game 5 Loss, 4 - 15, Game 6 Loss, 4 - 13

Ron does sometimes (a lot of times) save us, he creates when all else fails and then often "saves the day" he is not the type of player that demands shots, or turns into a black hole.

He averages 3.2 Ast over the Playoffs, #3 on the team.

Exactly ..sign it :D

Arcadian
06-07-2004, 12:15 PM
You people are talking about the same Artest who complained about the offense being boring, got benched for jacking up shots and complained at the end of the series that he didn't get enough shots? All of which happened on a 61 win season.

Sure Ron likes to win. But Ron isn't happy when he plays poorly and the team wins. And Ron gadges his preformance heavily on the offensive side. So I think it is a very legitimate question of whether or not Ron is willing to accept a reduced role on the offensive side. I'm not going to say Artest can't because I like him and want to see him as a Pacer. I chalk a lot of it up to him being 24.

As far as the assist go they don't mean much to me. Iverson was second in assist for the Sixers and Pierce lead the Celtics. It's how much the ball is in his hands not just the number of shots that is going to change. With Reggie the longest he held the ball was to feed the post. I promise that will change with another SG.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 01:01 PM
I'm with arcaidian.

I would have said maybe he could even though he sometimes makes very selfish and poor offensive decisions. Exspecially in the first 2 detroit games. But after that series was over he was interviewed in the lockerroom saying that he wishes he had the ball more.

Now I don't know how a guy who is on a team with a legit MVP candidate and averaged 17.3 shots a game in the ECF could want the ball more.

This is what makes me think that he is barely content being the 2nd option, let alone the 3rd.

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 01:03 PM
Lord forbid anyone say anything outta frustration after a game the Pacers should have won , I guess none of you have said things in the Heat of the moment that you regret :confused:

Ultimate Frisbee
06-07-2004, 01:05 PM
Ron has it in his head that he wants to be a superstar... and superstars are usually judged primarily on their offense and secondarily on their defense/other help stats...

Hence.. I think that Artest would be disappointed if he became a lower option on offense... I think that if he remains able to score, and we acquire another option on offense (a better jumpshooter for example), he should be able to get just as many points as he did this season ... I think Ron is strongest near the basket and driving toward the hoop and hence would not be hurt if we obtained a pure shooter that can spot up or create his own long shot...

75Ranger
06-07-2004, 01:16 PM
You people are talking about the same Artest who complained about the offense being boring, got benched for jacking up shots and complained at the end of the series that he didn't get enough shots? All of which happened on a 61 win season.

Sure Ron likes to win. But Ron isn't happy when he plays poorly and the team wins. And Ron gadges his preformance heavily on the offensive side. So I think it is a very legitimate question of whether or not Ron is willing to accept a reduced role on the offensive side. I'm not going to say Artest can't because I like him and want to see him as a Pacer. I chalk a lot of it up to him being 24.

As far as the assist go they don't mean much to me. Iverson was second in assist for the Sixers and Pierce lead the Celtics. It's how much the ball is in his hands not just the number of shots that is going to change. With Reggie the longest he held the ball was to feed the post. I promise that will change with another SG.

Man I agree with you 100%. Thats the big question about Artest can he handle being the 3rd option. I don't believe he can.At least not yet. He always wants the ball in his hand, hes made a couple of comments during the past season where he needs the ball more or we need to run the offense through him.

Ron is a confident guy he probably believes hes a better offensive player he really is. Ron may be able to fit in with a player who likes to move with out the ball like a Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton type of player. These are the types of players who don't need alot of shots to score because they shoot a high percentage but if you get a guy like T-Mac, or even a Quinton Richardson(I don't consider him a elite offensive player by the way but hes alwasy being brought up) who are low percentage shooters, they need alot of shots I think we could have some serious chemistry issues. Ron is one of the best two play players I've seen but I think we need an offensive player who is a little better then Ron to win a title. Instead of Ron Shooting 16 times a game can he handle only shooting 11-13 times a game and not have the ball in his hands as much.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 01:24 PM
Lord forbid anyone say anything outta frustration after a game the Pacers should have won , I guess none of you have said things in the Heat of the moment that you regret :confused:

Its not just that he said it but also that he displayed it during the end of that game when he was making selfish selfish plays. He clearly thought that he was the one and only person who was going to bring us back and totally abandoned team basketball.

And don't give me the Ron just wants to win line, cause I'm not buying it. No one on that floor wanted to lose. Ron wanted it no more than JO.

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 01:38 PM
Lord forbid anyone say anything outta frustration after a game the Pacers should have won , I guess none of you have said things in the Heat of the moment that you regret :confused:

Its not just that he said it but also that he displayed it during the end of that game when he was making selfish selfish plays. He clearly thought that he was the one and only person who was going to bring us back and totally abandoned team basketball.

And don't give me the Ron just wants to win line, cause I'm not buying it. No one on that floor wanted to lose. Ron wanted it no more than JO.

But is that a reason worth trading for? Just because of 2 minutes? Ron did not lose that game, the team did.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 02:17 PM
Oh I agree the team lost that game. I never once said anything about trading Ron. The question was if I thought Ron could handle being the third option. I don't believe he could.

However on the Ron trade topic. I'll say it like this. I view Ron almostly identical to Al. Ron just being a little better at every aspect of the game except mental stability and basketball knowledge. Basically I accept that Al will be the one gone, but if I were running the operations if I could command elite sg for Ron and Al only gonna get me a mediocre to good one I trade Ron knowing that Al can step in and anything we lose at that position would be totally made up for and surpassed by our new sg.

sweabs
06-07-2004, 02:20 PM
but if I were running the operations if I could command elite sg for Ron and Al only gonna get me a mediocre to good one I trade Ron knowing that Al can step in and anything we lose at that position would be totally made up for and surpassed by our new sg.

Maybe at the offensive end. But wouldn't you rather trade Al for a guy who will provide some extra offense, while keeping Ron and his superior defense? Not to mention, Ron's offensive game will only continue to improve, along with his decision making.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 02:31 PM
But I feel that our most glaring hole is the offensive end. I realize Ron is the best on the ball defender in the league. But can we all agree that Al isn't a slouch defensively. Also you're assuming that the player we get in return only plays offense. I have no interest in a player who has no interest in playing defense (Jalen Rose).

I really am having a hard time coming up with a way to say how I think the compromise is. So the best way (which isn't great) to show you is a grading system like this.

Ron is a "A" player. Al is a "B" player. Reggie is a "D" player.

Right now our starting lineup has the "A" and "D" players, lets say we could trade Ron for a "A" sg like Michael Redd. Then Al would start and instead of "A"(Ron) and "D"(Reggie). We would have "A"(Redd) and "B"(Al).

SycamoreKen
06-07-2004, 03:11 PM
Not to mention, Ron's offensive game will only continue to improve, along with his decision making.

I don't know Ron enough to say if he could handle being the 3rd option, or mayvbe 2B, but I would hope he would if there was the opportunity. A legit 3rd option would open up his post up game even more.

In response to the quote above, I WAS going to say that I didn't know if Ron still had time to improve his decision making, but then I looked his age up and saw that he was only 25. I was even more surprised to find out that Fred is older than Ron. I think they all will grow from this season. Hopefully Donnie and Larry can add the pieces needed to get us over the hump.

Ant
06-07-2004, 03:42 PM
Ron is an great asset to the team in terms of defense, we all know that, however we've all seen his tendencey to stray from the offense if things arent going right and we aren't scoring points. He feels the necessity to try and put the load on his shoulders and make a difference on the offensive end, which i like his determination, but its probably not in the best interest of the team.

I would hope that if we brought in a SG who can shoot from the arc and create his own shot, that Ron would realize that maybe its best for the team to let the natural scorers do their thing and to just chill on the offensive end. But then again the only way that would happen is if the team is winning and Ron realizes hes often times hurting the team more than helping them when he runs the offensive thru himself.

Guess we'd have to see how things pan out if we did get the scoring 2 guard everybody wants. If some of the Pacers scoring problems are allieviated, i hope Ron would realize he doesnt have to try and force the issue as much.

Ideally, I'd love to see Ron dedicate the summer to working on his jumpshot and becoming a viable 2nd option, but theres definitley no guarantee in that.

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 04:02 PM
I dunno If people would be complaining about Ron's taking too many shots if we won the ECF , I was looking over the Box scores for all the series from round 1 -3 and ron only took 4-13 in game 6 , looking back over the box scores that number seems fair as ron should take I think 10-15 shots per game. If I guess I wanted to complain about his shot selection I could eaily point too the 2-7 from behind the 3 point line , Ron's game isn't the 3 point line and I am sure everyone can agree on that ;)

I think some of the blame can fall on Rick also , it's his job to let the player know hey your screwing up , let''s stick to plan A , sometimes i think Rick has been alittle to soft with Ron when he seems to be having a off game or not playing smart.

You see these young guys like Ron tend to feel they have to maybe do more than is required at some points and even someone like Kobe can fall into that trap and Kobe was 10-27 in Game 1 of the Finals. I think Ron is a player who can learn from his mistakes and will continue to improve in his skills as a player and sometimes mistakes will drive a person to work harder and I think that is what fuel's Ron because he wants to be the Best.

I think in Game 6 JO did the Best he could on 1 leg pretty much and Ron seen no one else was stepping up so he maybe took it too much into his own hands and tried to make something happen , like he did so many times last year when we needed it.

Hicks
06-07-2004, 04:12 PM
Ron foolishly hoisting up bad shots at the end of Game 6, and his post-game "me first" comments rubbed me seriously the wrong way.

With that said, if it weren't for that I'd probably be 100% on the side of "don't be stupid, you can't trade Ron".

Because of what he did, I'm more 90% in that camp, with part of me not missing his bad side.

But that means that in the end, I still think it'd be bad for the team to trade him.

ChicagoJ
06-07-2004, 04:15 PM
I think some of the blame can fall on Rick also , it's his job to let the player know hey your screwing up , let''s stick to plan A , sometimes i think Rick has been alittle to soft with Ron when he seems to be having a off game or not playing smart.

I've got a hunch that, although Rick has been very complimentary of Ron to the press, that he's handled things properly behind-the-scenes. Rick *did* bench/ suspend Ron for conduct detrimental to winning. I think Rick believes that Ron doesn't respond well to being 'called out.'

The previous coach, perhaps unwittingly, was an enabler of Ron's 'not playing smart' (your words, but I agree). So I've got much more confidence in Rick's ability to keep Ron focused, although it would be nice to not have to have the coaching staff preoccupied with keeping one player focused. :shrug:

DisplacedKnick
06-07-2004, 04:25 PM
Unless you got a real superstar ala Allen, Pierce, T-Mac, I'd be surprised to see Ron as a pure option 3. It'd be more like 2a and 2b. A case of if the defense is crowding the perimeter, Ron takes it to the basket more where if they focus on him the perimeter guy gets more chances.

I think most Pacer fans hoped it'd be that way this year with Reggie but it wasn't.

Hicks
06-07-2004, 04:26 PM
Unless you got a real superstar ala Allen, Pierce, T-Mac, I'd be surprised to see Ron as a pure option 3. It'd be more like 2a and 2b. A case of if the defense is crowding the perimeter, Ron takes it to the basket more where if they focus on him the perimeter guy gets more chances.

I think most Pacer fans hoped it'd be that way this year with Reggie but it wasn't.

Yeah.

fwpacerfan
06-07-2004, 04:38 PM
Considering the fact that he only takes a lot of shots if the team "runs bad" i.e. the offense is not firing on all cylinders.
Considering he gladly passes off to "open" players of JO (see his Assist)
Considering winning is ALL important to Ron
Considering his strength and pride lies in defense, not offense, and
Considering he has never said he wanted to be 1st or 2nd option, he only said(says) that they should go to him when things are on the line.

I think Ron does not care one bit if he were 5th option in offense, providing the others "do their job".

His assistnumbers wouldn't be where they are if he were unwilling to share, unlike some.

It is more the blackhole mentality on some on the team that he is objecting to and then he says that he is a better option (which happens to be true).

Ron's only "revolt" from the offense has been one shared by the others on the team, they feel they can do a lot more then half-court grind out.

Yes, with Tins this team can run, something we missed more then most of you are considering against Detroit, we simply did not have our speed in the offense, resulting in a ready defense, and grindout play that does not really work against Detroit.

Ron merely tried to force in some games and not in others, what no one seems to notice is that A. a lot of Ron's shots are "winding down shotclock shots", B. When we win he takes more then when we lose:


Detroit series: Game 1 win, 6 - 23, Game 2 Loss, 5 - 21, Game 3 Loss, 4 - 13, Game 4 Win, 8 - 19, Game 5 Loss, 4 - 15, Game 6 Loss, 4 - 13

Ron does sometimes (a lot of times) save us, he creates when all else fails and then often "saves the day" he is not the type of player that demands shots, or turns into a black hole.

He averages 3.2 Ast over the Playoffs, #3 on the team.

Darn it Able - this is EXACTLY what I was going to post! ;)

Great post - well put. Ron takes ill-advised shots when the team is struggling offensively. I think he would be fine with only shooting 3 times a game if the team was winning.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 05:09 PM
Everyone is raving over Able's post, no offense to able, but is everyone okay with the fact that Artest is happy and willing to cooperate as long as we're winning? I mean does no one see what's wrong with this picture?

Personally I want someone I can count on no matter our score or our record. I want players who follow the coach's plan and not just when it is working.

Now I'm coming off probably different than I want to. I think Ron has tremendous skill. Maybe as much or more than JO but Ron is just to unstable for my taste. It has nothing to do with suspensions. Its all about his decision making when he is in the game.

Ron has come a long way this year in maturing as a human being with having less off the court issues and flagerant foul issues. But his basketball knowledge has had very little to any growth. I am not calling for Ron departure I am just saying that if we could keep Al and get a high quality 2guard I would trade Ron.

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 05:20 PM
I am just saying that if we could keep Al and get a high quality 2guard I would trade Ron.

Mind if I steal your thoughts and start a new thread on this

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 05:22 PM
I guess not, I just want proper recognition.






















just joking ;)

MarionDeputy
06-07-2004, 08:02 PM
I think some of the blame can fall on Rick also , it's his job to let the player know hey your screwing up , let''s stick to plan A , sometimes i think Rick has been alittle to soft with Ron when he seems to be having a off game or not playing smart.

I've got a hunch that, although Rick has been very complimentary of Ron to the press, that he's handled things properly behind-the-scenes. Rick *did* bench/ suspend Ron for conduct detrimental to winning. I think Rick believes that Ron doesn't respond well to being 'called out.'

The previous coach, perhaps unwittingly, was an enabler of Ron's 'not playing smart' (your words, but I agree). So I've got much more confidence in Rick's ability to keep Ron focused, although it would be nice to not have to have the coaching staff preoccupied with keeping one player focused. :shrug:

I have to agree, if there was ever a coach that could handle this hypothetical situation it's Rick.

Peck
11-12-2004, 08:34 AM
In light of recent events I thought that this post needed to be brought back.

ABADays
11-12-2004, 11:10 AM
Ron has it in his head that he wants to be a superstar... and superstars are usually judged primarily on their offense and secondarily on their defense/other help stats...

Hence.. I think that Artest would be disappointed if he became a lower option on offense... I think that if he remains able to score, and we acquire another option on offense (a better jumpshooter for example), he should be able to get just as many points as he did this season ... I think Ron is strongest near the basket and driving toward the hoop and hence would not be hurt if we obtained a pure shooter that can spot up or create his own long shot...

I'm confused . . . are we talking about able or Able (able)?