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View Full Version : Is there anyone who would rather keep Harrington instead of Artest



Unclebuck
06-05-2004, 11:13 AM
Speak now.

I would like to hear your reasoning. Couple of questions that I would like you to address.

Is there any evidence that AL at small forward and J.O at power forward is a successful pairing.

Can AL guard players like Lebron James, Paul Pierce, Rip Hamilton, Mello, Richard Jefferson.

Harrington's best position is clearly power forwad and yet I don't think a lineup of J.O , AL and Ron was very effective this past season nor will it ever be. That lineup clogs the middle too much, it is too small, and perhapos most of all it does not fit Rick's offensive system which is based on proper floor spacing.

I will hate to see Al go, but he is without question the most logical to be traded because of the comination of trade value,the fact that the pacers have others who can do what AL can do, and other factors.

sweabs
06-05-2004, 11:15 AM
Artest is the one to keep for sure.
Artest has the best defense.
Artest has the better shot.
Artest has the mental intensity every night.
Artest creates more matchup problems.
Artest is more consistent.

ARTEST IS THE MAN!

Pig Nash
06-05-2004, 11:19 AM
The only advantage i see of letting Artest go would be that we would be able to get more in return. I think some of us overvalue Al sometimes. I really think some of the trades on here giving us more than one starter or a great player for Al and filler are kind of farfetched. I don't think that'll happen. But i'd still rather keep Ronnie.

Pig Nash
06-05-2004, 11:20 AM
Oh sweet i went over four hundred and i didn't even know it!

Hicks
06-05-2004, 11:31 AM
Unless the right player if offered, you definitely want to see Al gone before you see Ron gone.

Mourning
06-05-2004, 11:40 AM
Yup!

Hicks
06-05-2004, 11:40 AM
Yup!

Yup to what I wrote? Or yup to what UB asked?

Anthem
06-05-2004, 12:02 PM
I'm trying to imagine the player I would trade Ron Artest for. I can't.

I mean, I can, but they're all untouchable. DPOY with 18ppg? Garnett would be an improvement. Ummm... Kobe. Tim Duncan. Probably not Peja.

Who's out there that we could legitamately trade Ron for? I'm not seeing it.

MSA2CF
06-05-2004, 12:07 PM
I'm trying to imagine the player I would trade Ron Artest for. I can't.

I mean, I can, but they're all untouchable. DPOY with 18ppg? Garnett would be an improvement. Ummm... Kobe. Tim Duncan. Probably not Peja.

Who's out there that we could legitamately trade Ron for? I'm not seeing it.

Trade him to the Warriors for their next 10 future first round picks. :P

Anthem
06-05-2004, 12:15 PM
I'm trying to imagine the player I would trade Ron Artest for. I can't.

I mean, I can, but they're all untouchable. DPOY with 18ppg? Garnett would be an improvement. Ummm... Kobe. Tim Duncan. Probably not Peja.

Who's out there that we could legitamately trade Ron for? I'm not seeing it.

Trade him to the Warriors for their next 10 future first round picks. :P

If the Warriors added Ron for free, their next 10 picks might not be very good. ;)

Doug
06-05-2004, 12:50 PM
Only 'cause we can get a better player in return.

Ron+Fred for TMac? It's more likely that Al+Fred.

Foster/JO/Al/TMac/Tinsley

Of course that doesn't solve Al's issue. He still would be the third option, much like he is now. I guess it's important to him to be the first or second option.

Anthem
06-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Only 'cause we can get a better player in return.

Ron+Fred for TMac? It's more likely that Al+Fred.

More likely? That's a steal for Orlando!

I haven't heard anyone suggest that Al and Fred would be enough to get TMac... most agree that the bidding would have to start with Al+Bender.

BillS
06-05-2004, 01:57 PM
The trouble I have with even saying that Ron is better trade value is that losing him cuts into the heart of the team right now. Unless you are going to completely break up a team and go a different direction (which would be more than foolish, it would be criminal at this stage), you can't get rid of your foundation players. Right now, JO and Ron are our foundation - offense and defense - with MelMel right in there as one of the keys (but only because a better PG would be difficult if not impossible to find on the market).

kerosene
06-05-2004, 02:03 PM
BillS makes a very good point.

I could see Ron being available for a McGrady or Pierce (i.e. someone would redefine the team) but not in just any deal.

Mourning
06-05-2004, 02:34 PM
"Yup!" to:

Unless the right player if offered, you definitely want to see Al gone before you see Ron gone.


Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Snickers
06-05-2004, 02:36 PM
Gotta keep Ronnie. The biggest complaints about him [ballhogging, gets too caught up in his own game] are just as prevalent, if not more so, in Al. And Al's not the DPOY or the 2nd option on offense.

I love Al, as I'm sure we all do, but we need Ron.

Will Galen
06-05-2004, 03:09 PM
Is there anyone who would rather keep Harrington instead of Artest?

It doesn't really matter to me which one is traded. I feel more comfortable that Al won't self destruct, but Artest is making strides in getting himself under control.

I think Bird will trade the one that improves the Pacers the most. For instance, if we could get Pierce and Blount for Artest and filler, I could see Artest being the one traded.

I used that trade as a for instance because it gives us a shooting guard and good big man in the same deal.

Arcadian
06-05-2004, 03:12 PM
I believe that Al will be better as a starter when giving a role of stopper. A lot of his trouble through out his career has been having a defined roll.

I guess the question is do you think the Pacers would be better with Al plus Allen, T-mac, Pierce or Ron plus Q Richardson, Murry or Mobley. I'd vote for Al plus a star but if that couldn't be done I'd trade Al.

bulletproof
06-05-2004, 03:53 PM
I guess the question is do you think the Pacers would be better with Al plus Allen, TMac or Pierce, or Ron plus Q. Richardson, Murry or Mobley. I'd vote for Al plus a star but if that couldn't be done I'd trade Al.

Great question. That is the question Donnie and Larry will have to ask themselves. I wish I knew the answer. Both are intriguing possibilities.

Doug
06-05-2004, 04:41 PM
Only 'cause we can get a better player in return.

Ron+Fred for TMac? It's more likely that Al+Fred.

Foster/JO/Al/TMac/Tinsley

Of course that doesn't solve Al's issue. He still would be the third option, much like he is now. I guess it's important to him to be the first or second option.

RIGHT, Cuz that's what he told YOU last weekend when you had dinner right?????????
The LEAPS of assumption you guys take here is MIND BOGGLING. :unimpressed:

What? Do you dispute the fact that Al wants a bigger role on the team? Do you have another interpetation of things?


Q. Al Harrington obviously wants to start, but has been unable to do so here. How do you see his future evolving?

A. This has been a tough situation for Al, because I view him as a starter in this league. I know hes that kind of player. As the summer progresses, well see what takes form. If there was the opportunity for him to be a starter here, that would be great. And if there isnt, then it may be time for him to move on to another team.

or

Only Al Harrington expressed a desire to be moved if more playing time can't be found.

Al was 3rd on the team in minutes played. Yet he wants more minutes.

So, in your opinion, this is all a smokescreen by the Pacers, the media, and Al himself to distract us from the real plan?

Anthem
06-05-2004, 05:39 PM
I am always greatly concerned with team chemistry. I have no knowledge of TMc and whether he is an *sshole or not, that would certainly factor in a bunch.

Jermaine and TMac get along fine. The two of them teamed up for charity over all-star weekend.

TheSauceMaster
06-05-2004, 07:21 PM
Keep Ron , deal AL for something we need .

You See our movements all are based right now on if Reggie Stays or Goes , Until I hear Bird or Donnie say we are going after a big name SG , I will say we are not going after a Big Name SG. The Feeling I have gather from the past several days is if Reggie Stays he will still be a Starter next year .

Pig Nash
06-05-2004, 07:57 PM
With that said, if a great deal, (KG, Timmy D, kobe, maybe AI) then I would consider it.

You'd rather have AI than T-Mac? :crazy:

Will Galen
06-05-2004, 07:59 PM
I am always greatly concerned with team chemistry. I have no knowledge of TMc and whether he is an *sshole or not, that would certainly factor in a bunch.

Jermaine and TMac get along fine. The two of them teamed up for charity over all-star weekend.

Not only are they friends, but TMac is not a leader at this point in time. He was really upset when Armstrong left fot New Orleans. So JO and TMac would get along like Batman and Robin. In a basketball skills sense, a mature Robin.

stew
06-05-2004, 09:36 PM
Speak now.

I would like to hear your reasoning. Couple of questions that I would like you to address.

Is there any evidence that AL at small forward and J.O at power forward is a successful pairing.

Can AL guard players like Lebron James, Paul Pierce, Rip Hamilton, Mello, Richard Jefferson.

Harrington's best position is clearly power forwad and yet I don't think a lineup of J.O , AL and Ron was very effective this past season nor will it ever be. That lineup clogs the middle too much, it is too small, and perhapos most of all it does not fit Rick's offensive system which is based on proper floor spacing.

I will hate to see Al go, but he is without question the most logical to be traded because of the comination of trade value,the fact that the pacers have others who can do what AL can do, and other factors.

I am actually thinking of the same thing a few days ago... :P

al is the best bet to be traded... but trading artest will fetch more in return...

but it will bring the same result.. clear the logjam at sf.. give more playing time with bender...

but i still say trade al ...

Bball
06-05-2004, 09:43 PM
Keep Ron , deal AL for something we need .

You See our movements all are based right now on if Reggie Stays or Goes , Until I hear Bird or Donnie say we are going after a big name SG , I will say we are not going after a Big Name SG. The Feeling I have gather from the past several days is if Reggie Stays he will still be a Starter next year .

Sauce,
If that happens (Team waits on Reggie, saves starting spot for him, and focuses not on a STARTING quality SG (big name or not) then kiss next season's NBA Championship chances goodbye..... unless Freddie turns out to be a starting quality SG.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
06-05-2004, 10:21 PM
I don't trust Ron. I'd rather keep Al.

He may not be as talented as Ron, but he's so much more mature/ stronger 'mentally.' I just don't trust Ron to bring it, mentally, when the pressure is on. When the season ended, we were right back to where we started, Ron was doing selfish and boneheaded things that hurt the team more than his great defense helped them. Sure, it was nice that he kept his focus during the low-pressure regular season (since he'd never been able to do that previously with either the Bulls or Pacers), but nobody cares about the regular season.

Al may be asking for a bigger role, but from all accounts he's never been a disruption to the team inside the confines of the team. His desire for a bigger role was always a bigger deal on the internet than it was to the team. I don't think the same is true for Ron. He may be talented but the level of headaches he causes / babysitting he requires may be more than his talent level dictates.

Al's never been suspended for 'conduct detrimental to winning.' We know his teammates - especially JO - love him. We know, even though he played PF all season, that he's a little too small to play PF when JO is playing C.

In fact, I'd rather trade Ron for an upgrade at PF or C, intstead of a superstar SG. Then you'd have a frontcourt of Al / PF - TBD / JO. We've got plenty of options for upgrading at SG, that's always easier than trying to improve at PF or C. (Although I would trade Ron + Jon for T-Mac in a heartbeat).

Ron's trade value may never he higher. That's something I think the Pacers should take advantage of.

TheSauceMaster
06-05-2004, 10:51 PM
Keep Ron , deal AL for something we need .

You See our movements all are based right now on if Reggie Stays or Goes , Until I hear Bird or Donnie say we are going after a big name SG , I will say we are not going after a Big Name SG. The Feeling I have gather from the past several days is if Reggie Stays he will still be a Starter next year .

Sauce,
If that happens (Team waits on Reggie, saves starting spot for him, and focuses not on a STARTING quality SG (big name or not) then kiss next season's NBA Championship chances goodbye..... unless Freddie turns out to be a starting quality SG.

-Bball

Bball , I 100% agree with you but I haven't seen any clue to prove me wrong , all things that have been said so far lead me too believe Reggie will be a Starter next season.

Bball
06-05-2004, 10:59 PM
I don't trust Ron. I'd rather keep Al.

He may not be as talented as Ron, but he's so much more mature/ stronger 'mentally.' I just don't trust Ron to bring it, mentally, when the pressure is on. When the season ended, we were right back to where we started, Ron was doing selfish and boneheaded things that hurt the team more than his great defense helped them. Sure, it was nice that he kept his focus during the low-pressure regular season (since he'd never been able to do that previously with either the Bulls or Pacers), but nobody cares about the regular season.

Al may be asking for a bigger role, but from all accounts he's never been a disruption to the team inside the confines of the team. His desire for a bigger role was always a bigger deal on the internet than it was to the team. I don't think the same is true for Ron. He may be talented but the level of headaches he causes / babysitting he requires may be more than his talent level dictates.

Al's never been suspended for 'conduct detrimental to winning.' We know his teammates - especially JO - love him. We know, even though he played PF all season, that he's a little too small to play PF when JO is playing C.

In fact, I'd rather trade Ron for an upgrade at PF or C, intstead of a superstar SG. Then you'd have a frontcourt of Al / PF - TBD / JO. We've got plenty of options for upgrading at SG, that's always easier than trying to improve at PF or C. (Although I would trade Ron + Jon for T-Mac in a heartbeat).

Ron's trade value may never he higher. That's something I think the Pacers should take advantage of.

I can't argue with any of that except to say.... I don't trust Al to 'bring it' when the pressure is on either. Al seems to shrink to the occassion.... not rise.

I think Al is high basketball energy and low basketball IQ.

And, as said, when things don't go his way he pouts...

Maybe we trade them both? ...I'm not convinced Artest has been all golden behind the scenes. The missed practices seem to happen at odd times.... just as the team is having problems. I think the team HAS to get rid of one of them because I don't think management/coaches can walk on eggshells too long trying to 'appease' two players.

...One last thing that leans me to keeping Artest if we are keeping just one. I get the 'feeling' Artest does what he does to win. When he forces shots he isn't doing it to build up the stat sheet but instead just to put more points on the brd for the team. OTOH, I get the feeling Al is just looking to score to pump his stats. Yeah, it's only a feeling but I have seen Artest pass the ball to open teammates.

-Bball

Unclebuck
06-05-2004, 11:16 PM
Some interesting thoughts in this thread.

The thought that keeps coming back to me is that AL is not a small forward, and he plays his best ball when J.O is either injured or not on the floor.

Was there a game this season or a time when AL was really successful at small forward. Not that I recall.

TheSauceMaster
06-05-2004, 11:24 PM
I just find it strange til the Detriot Series , no one really was too concern with Ron and they had tons of praise for him and he goes from MVP kinda guy for the Pacers to a guy that people want to trade off :confused:

I think giving up on Ron would be a big , big mistake. I am not saying I am 100% happy with some stuff he does but he's still very young and he's gonna make these kinda mistakes and he showed me this last year he can improve in a positive manner and I am sure he will improve and work harder than ever to be even better next season.

Steveman
06-06-2004, 01:35 AM
I'm not going to debate Ron's ability he is a great player, but IMHO, he is also a cancer to chemistry.

From post game comments I don't think his teammates really appreciated his taking over at the end of game 6. JO is a tremendous talent, but I think he'd be even better if Ron wasn't on the team ... our MVP has to step aside so that "Ronnie" can get his "touches" on offense.

Peck
06-06-2004, 03:34 AM
To me there is no way to answer this on just the basis of "making a trade".

I think there are way to many things to consider without just giving a one size fits all answer.

1. What do we get in return? If trading Al brought a good player but Ron brought a phenominal player would you do it? I would have to say yes.

2. Are there things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about? I say yes, I don't know how much but my guess is it's quite a bit. If keeping Al & getting rid of Ron kept J.O. happy would you do it? I would say yes. While Ron has been a great player & clearly has not had the problems that he had last year, it is telling that once again we end the season with Ron being discontent with his role on the offensive end. So is Al for that matter.

To me I think it boils down to what the teams chemistry is at this time.

I know that Ron is a better defender but Al is not a bad defender.

Ron has a better ppg. average, but I think Al could easily match or even surpass that.

Al is a better rebounder.

So if it looks like there are problems behind the scenes then yes, I would rather see Ron traded than Al.

But I am not advocating trading Ron.

TheSauceMaster
06-06-2004, 05:51 AM
Question to anyone who see's ron as cancer or a Lockerroom problem.

What are you basing this off of , was it postgame comments of a emotional game 6? Was it his not so great series in ECF ? I guess maybe I am trying to figure out why some assume there is troubles with Ron.

Remember superstar players have super ego's , who is too say if you bring in a Tmac or that type of player he won't open his mouth and call players out or complain?

I don't really wanna waste my time finding threads or comments that have been made over the past 3-6 months about Ron and what he meant to this team this last year, I guess I am just shaking my head alot right now wondering why ....I visit alot of other teams meassageboards and there fans seem okay with ron and there willing to take a risk , the way some have talked about Ron you would think his name is Dennis Rodman.

I just wanna prepare myself who will be the next whipping boy if we fail next season Becareful for what you wish for and I would hate to see ron get dealt to a team we may have to face in the playoffs next year and even worse a multi trade deal that would land him in a serious contenders hands.

indygeezer
06-06-2004, 08:12 AM
(By way of info) Al + Austin for Shareef Abdul-Raheem (Portland) works per RealGM. Severly depletes our bench tho.


When does Ron's BYC status come off???

I'm not certain what's going on with Ron. I've been a big supporter of his in the past but...? The comments by his teamates referring to "trouble at home" time out with the missed practices/migranes/and erratic play. Some argue that the Flagrant was not purposeful but I think it was (coupled with a flop), he was looking at the ref when it happened. Be that as it may.
IF (and that is a big if) Al could return to the defense he used to play I'd keep him. It all runs together but his 40 point game, his injury, and the arrival of Ron all seems to have taken their toll on Al's defense. Remember when Donnie said he couldn't wait to see Ron and Al on the court together? If Al could get back that defensive intensity we'd be ok trading Ron. And perhaps better for it.
I still have this <HHHmmmmm????> in the back of my mind when I think of Ron's comments over the course of the season and PO's. He wasn't too happy with the offense and indicated it needed to be freer. Then in the PO's he broke off plays and tried to do it himself. I gotta question his coachablility. Wanting to win is one thing but trying to do it all by yourself is another.

All in all, I'll trust Larry and DOnnie to know what's going on behind the scenes and to act appropriately. I won't be disappointed whichever is dealt as long as we DO SOMETHING to make this team better. I'm not in the l"let's keep em intact and watch em grow up" frame of mind anymore.

Unclebuck
06-06-2004, 10:40 AM
I am also a little troubled by the general feeling that seems to be prevalent in this forum that Ron is once again causing problems. Or perhaps the "problems" never stopped.

In my mind the "flagrant foul" in game 6 was very questionable, and that does not even enter into my thinking when I consider Ron's future on the Pacers.

90% of the shots that Ron missed in the ECF were shots he took all season long. The difference was the Pistons defense is so good that those same shots were either blocked or contested to the point that caused Ron to miss the shots. One other huge factor was the Piastons did not "foul" Ron like other teams did.

Did Ron get frustrated in the ECF Yes. He he take some bad shots. Yes. But did he average close to 10 rebounds per game. Yes. Without Ron would the Pistons have beaten the pacers 4-0. Yes

Ron did adjust his game in games #4 and Games #6. Since the series has been over I have spent some time watching the series again on tape and I see a few times when Ron made bad decisions on offensive, mostly in games 2 and 5. His decisions in game #6 were excellent.

As far as Ron's comments after game #6 those go in one ear and out the other and those do not influence me at all.

Just what type of player are the Pacers going to get for Ron. McGrady, KG, TD, Kobe, Kidd, , no they won't get those players.

Pacers won 61 games with Ron this past season, keeping everything the same without Ron the Pacers win 46 games, Yes IMO Ron is worth 15 per season.

You say what about the playoffs though. Well without Ron the Celtics push the Pacers to 6 games and the Heat beat the Pacers.

ChicagoJ
06-06-2004, 12:39 PM
I've been in lockerrooms with guys like Ron - guys that may say all the right things but thier actions still scream "selfishness."

Let's put it to rest right now, I don't care at all about the flagrant foul. It was stupid for him to raise his hands high enough to make contact above Rip's shoulders - a guy with Ron's reputation is going to get called for a flagrant > 50% of the time in that situation. It was stupid and he must learn from his stupidity, but that's an isolated and poorly timed occurrence.

Its his tendency to go one-on-five, his lack of trust in his teammates, his belief that he has to do it all, his tendency to break away from the game plan... when things aren't going 100% his way, he still reverts to the same type of stuff that Rick called 'conduct detrimental to winning' back to December.

Notice that the suspension in December came during our stretch where we went 7-8 over fifteen games. Notice how he reverted to selfish behavior when we were in the midst of a 4-6 stretch over the last ten games of the playoffs.

You can say he hates to lose, but there are lots of examples of athletes that hate to lose and don't use that an excuse to abandon team concepts or become as selfish as Ron becomes when we play 0.500 ball for an extended period.

[hr]
As long as JO is healthy, there's no way the Heat beat the Pacers. Ron was just one of many Pacers that was able to take advantage of Miami's 'shut down JO' gameplan. Al, Jamaal, Reggie, and Jeff also all had big games in that series. Yes, Ron was great in game #6, but that series, IMO, was never in jeopardy.

Peck
06-06-2004, 12:52 PM
Look before you have a heart attack U.B. let me make sure you understand something.

I am NOT asking for trading Ron Artest. This time last year, yes I was. But not now.

The flagrant foul was nothing to me. It could just as well have been called a personnel foul. But the combo of it being Artest & Hamiltons acting caused the flagrant to be called.

I was just answering what you asked & yes in my mind I could see scenarios where it would make sense to move Artest & keep Harrington.

Do I know things are going on behind the scenes? No, other than what has been reported, past history & to be honest a person who is associated with the team in a minor capacity who told me a couple of post game things but I am NOT taking his word as gospel.

Look I know he's your favorite player, I know that sometimes it's hard to ever see real fault in your favorite player. But at the end of the day, just like I had to do with Dale Davis, you have to decide if something does happen are you an Artest fan or a Pacers fan.

I know the answer already & so do you, your a Pacers fan.

Actualy, that's the way I'm going to end this.

I just want to go our on a compliment.

Your a Pacers fan.

Arcadian
06-06-2004, 01:32 PM
I don't think that many are saying trade Artest. I am saying IF the right trade came trade Artest, which should be the philosophy I hold for any player. For Artest and our team I would say that is a top 3 SG. If that isn't availbe then we should trade Al.

I will say that I think there is a double standard where Ron and Al are concerned. Ron says at the end of the series he should have gotten the ball more and Al is the selfish one who only cares about scoring. People plead that we don't focus on just Ron's offensive game but ignore the charges Al draws the balls he knocks away and his willingness to go to the flooor.

All of the negatives which Al brings to the table holding the ball to long, bad shots, getting upset when things don't go his way Ron possesses as well plus whatever it is that makes him do what he does.

Ron is clearly the better player and I want him on our team but I'm not going to pretend that he isn't a risk and still doesn't have to improve on his approach to the game.

Mourning
06-06-2004, 01:57 PM
So far Ron has always improved. He certainly improved his offense last summer, when he said that he would. I expect him to add another extra or improve what he already has just like JO has always done ;) .

I have faith in the guy, sure he is a risk. There are few guys his quality that dont have instruction manuals, so what? If we can negate or minimize it as this season he's great ot have around. I would only trade him for a superstar and than only the right one, so no AI or Ray Ray (is he even a superstar?) for Ron.
So, yes technically there are scenarios that you kight device in which we would keep Al and trade Ron, but there are only very, very few I would say "yes" too.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

indygeezer
06-06-2004, 02:16 PM
The other day I asked if Al were worth a #5 pick because that's what we got for Antonio Davis. Now I'll take it further. What kind of pick could we get for Ron Artest? He is afterall an All-Star and DPOY. What is that worth and is it worth getting rid of the headaches he brings with him?

#3 ???

#2 ???

#1 hey he is an All_star and DPOY what is unreasonable? AND what could we acquire with (or for) that pick?

bulletproof
06-06-2004, 02:19 PM
To me there is no way to answer this on just the basis of "making a trade".

I think there are way to many things to consider without just giving a one size fits all answer.

1. What do we get in return? If trading Al brought a good player but Ron brought a phenominal player would you do it? I would have to say yes.

2. Are there things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about? I say yes, I don't know how much but my guess is it's quite a bit. If keeping Al & getting rid of Ron kept J.O. happy would you do it? I would say yes. While Ron has been a great player & clearly has not had the problems that he had last year, it is telling that once again we end the season with Ron being discontent with his role on the offensive end. So is Al for that matter.

To me I think it boils down to what the teams chemistry is at this time.

I know that Ron is a better defender but Al is not a bad defender.

Ron has a better ppg. average, but I think Al could easily match or even surpass that.

Al is a better rebounder.

So if it looks like there are problems behind the scenes then yes, I would rather see Ron traded than Al.

But I am not advocating trading Ron.

Once again, great post, Peck. You and Jay@Section222 are really giving me a lot to think about regarding Ron and whether or not we should trade him. I haven't really formulated an opinion one way or another...yet. Certainly, a Ron for McGrady type of deal would be incredibly difficult to pass up. And as someone said in another post, a player like McGrady would open up the floor so Al and JO could take it inside all day long. Not only that, if you were going to lose your star player anyway (McGrady), the thought of getting someone like Artest in return would be tempting to say the least. A superstar for an all-star...hmm...

On the other hand, if you could keep Ron and get an up-and-comer for Al, the idea of a lineup that includes say, JO, Ron and J. Richardson is also intriguing. Is it more exciting than a lineup of JO, Al and McGrady? I don't know. But both are incredibly interesting pospects to ponder.


Question to anyone who see's ron as cancer or a Lockerroom problem. What are you basing this off of , was it postgame comments of a emotional game 6? Was it his not so great series in ECF ? I guess maybe I am trying to figure out why some assume there is troubles with Ron.

I am also a little troubled by the general feeling that seems to be prevalent in this forum that Ron is once again causing problems. Or perhaps the "problems" never stopped.


Ron requires a lot of handholding, mollycoddling and babysitting off the court. In other words, he's a lot of work. And that task has fallen primarily on management. The question will be whether or not they are tired of it and think Ron's talent and benefit to the team outweighs the effort of trying to keep him focused.

Unclebuck
06-06-2004, 02:34 PM
I've been in lockerrooms with guys like Ron - guys that may say all the right things but thier actions still scream "selfishness."



Wow, how do I respond to that.

Very carefully, I guess. First of all none of us really have a good idea what Ron is like in the locker room. I know I don't.

Second, the last thing Ron does is "say the right thing" He is often too honest, he needs to not say everything he thinks.

__________________________________________________ _____

Enough of that, there are more important things to discuss.

Peck, if I thought for one second that trading Ron Artest would help the Pacers team I would be in favor of. If the Pacers could trade him for the "right player" then OK trade the guy. I am not in love with him. I love the Pacers with or without Ron.

If the Pacers can only get Brent Barry for AL, and they can get McGrady for Artest, then I say trade Ron. I don't believe that to be the case.

Why are some of you assuming that Ron will not continue to improve in every aspect of his game, look at what he has accomplished in 2 short years.

I would be shocked if Ron is traded, iof he is then I will figure that there are a lot of things behind the scenes going on that makes it impossible for the Pacers to keep him

Ron is a top 15 player in the NBA now. You don't trade those guys because 99% of the time you never get fair value.

sweabs
06-06-2004, 02:41 PM
I am starting to second guess myself too after reading a lot of these posts.

Since Ron's trading value is so high, we could probably get a real good shooting guard for him. That would CLEARLY make JO and the new SG our first and second option...there would be no controversy over who is that 2nd option...b/c Al would just be happy to be our starter...whereas Ron will still want to be that 2nd guy.

Just makes me think...I just would hate to part with the guy b/c I love his game so much - but like Peck said...if it's better for the Pacers I'm all for it because deep down I'm a Pacers fan above all.

bulletproof
06-06-2004, 02:52 PM
First of all none of us really have a good idea what Ron is like in the locker room. I know I don't.

It's not so much about what he's like in the locker room, it has more to do with what I said in my previous post. And I do have a pretty good idea of the amount of work that goes into babysitting Ron.


I would be shocked if Ron is traded, if he is then I will figure that there are a lot of things behind the scenes going on that makes it impossible for the Pacers to keep him.

Bingo. Then you shouldn't be shocked. If it happens, that is. Because it will have more to do with that than anything else.

TheSauceMaster
06-06-2004, 08:28 PM
When does Ron's BYC status come off???

July 2004 if I remember correctly.




I am also a little troubled by the general feeling that seems to be prevalent in this forum that Ron is once again causing problems. Or perhaps the "problems" never stopped.

In my mind the "flagrant foul" in game 6 was very questionable, and that does not even enter into my thinking when I consider Ron's future on the Pacers.

90% of the shots that Ron missed in the ECF were shots he took all season long. The difference was the Pistons defense is so good that those same shots were either blocked or contested to the point that caused Ron to miss the shots. One other huge factor was the Piastons did not "foul" Ron like other teams did.

Did Ron get frustrated in the ECF Yes. He he take some bad shots. Yes. But did he average close to 10 rebounds per game. Yes. Without Ron would the Pistons have beaten the pacers 4-0. Yes

Ron did adjust his game in games #4 and Games #6. Since the series has been over I have spent some time watching the series again on tape and I see a few times when Ron made bad decisions on offensive, mostly in games 2 and 5. His decisions in game #6 were excellent.

As far as Ron's comments after game #6 those go in one ear and out the other and those do not influence me at all.

Just what type of player are the Pacers going to get for Ron. McGrady, KG, TD, Kobe, Kidd, , no they won't get those players.

Pacers won 61 games with Ron this past season, keeping everything the same without Ron the Pacers win 46 games, Yes IMO Ron is worth 15 per season.

You say what about the playoffs though. Well without Ron the Celtics push the Pacers to 6 games and the Heat beat the Pacers.

unclebuck I agree with everything you said , I feel also without Ron we would have been a 45 win team this year. We would have been lucky to make it outta the first round IMHO because we would have played much better teams earlier , so it could have been easily another first round exit and if we made it past that we would not have won 2nd round.

Even if Ron only improves alittle his trade value will remain much higher than if you keep AL and he proves to be the same player we have seen over the past 2 years , al's value will not be as great if he has another subpar year.

Arcadian
06-06-2004, 08:39 PM
Sub-par year? He was what 2nd or 3rd runner up for 6th man of the year.

Artestaholic
06-06-2004, 09:05 PM
1st runner up. Just a bit behind Antawn Jamsion in points. If Jamison hadnt already put up meganumbers as a starter with the Warriors, Al would have won it.

ChicagoJ
06-06-2004, 09:22 PM
I've been in lockerrooms with guys like Ron - guys that may say all the right things but thier actions still scream "selfishness."



Wow, how do I respond to that.

Very carefully, I guess. First of all none of us really have a good idea what Ron is like in the locker room. I know I don't.

Second, the last thing Ron does is "say the right thing" He is often too honest, he needs to not say everything he thinks.



Alright, I probably worded that really badly. (I was trying to say I've been in the lockerroom with a 'ballhog.') Certainly, I agree that none of us know what Ron is really like, although he's admitted in the past that he hasn't let his teammates get to know him and JO went out of his way to tell everyone how hard he and Reggie had to work to make Ron feel like he's part of a *team* with this whole 'tri-captains' thing. And he did promise that he'd never 'fly the bird' again after the Miami/ Pat Riley incident, and there are other times where he's said 'all the right things' to the press then gone out and done the opposite.

Regardless, let me re-tract that portion of my post and throw out another thought.

JO clearly must continue to be the 'first option'.

By using Ron in a trade, you're likely to get a guy that will be the 'second option'. By using Al in a trade, you're likely to get a guy that will be the third or fourth option.

After watching the Detroit series, I'd rather have my top three options be ( JO / ? / Al ) than ( JO / Ron / ? ). Now I'm still concerned about Al's annual playoff disappearance, but that seems less risky to me than Ron's tendancy to turn selfish every time we hit a rocky stretch. Hell, I wouldn't complain too loudly if both were traded this summer. :twocents:

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 12:47 AM
Jay, I guess I am very comfortable with Ron being the second option.

I agree the J.O should be the 1st option


But I would love to know what the crunch time efficiency of Ron was and J.O was.

80% of the time the Pacers went to one or the other in the last 2 minutes of a close game, they created a shot for themselves or got a good shot for a teammate. I know the coaching staff keeps this stat. I would be shocked if theey were not really close and I would not be surprised if Ron's was a little higher.

Steveman
06-07-2004, 01:35 AM
unclebuck I agree with everything you said , I feel also without Ron ...

Stop right there, you are obviously a big Ron Artest fan, so am I, he is a great talent isn't he? Now think for a moment what kind of talented outside threat we could get for him, put that player in his place, then continue with what you were about to say. If we didn't have Ron, we'd have someone with just as many skills (maybe more) in other areas than Ron.

Steveman
06-07-2004, 01:45 AM
Jay, I guess I am very comfortable with Ron being the second option.

I agree the J.O should be the 1st option.

And here is the problem ... as both players want to exersize their option in roughly the same area of the floor. We need an inside / outside game, not ram it inside, ram it inside again, again, and again.

I think the real question is not, "Do we keep Ron and trade Al?" but, "Do we keep Ron and trade JO?".

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 01:50 AM
unclebuck I agree with everything you said , I feel also without Ron ...

Stop right there, you are obviously a big Ron Artest fan, so am I, he is a great talent isn't he? Now think for a moment what kind of talented outside threat we could get for him, put that player in his place, then continue with what you were about to say. If we didn't have Ron, we'd have someone with just as many skills (maybe more) in other areas than Ron.

You assume I am a Ron Artest Fan , I am not !!!!! I respect Ron's game , Just like I respect Kobe's game and so forth.

No one in there right mind will Trade Ron Artest , 1-1 for a SuperStar Elite player and if they would they shouldn't be a GM. Sorry your gonna have to give up more than Ron to get 1 Elite Player.

Eindar
06-07-2004, 04:13 AM
unclebuck I agree with everything you said , I feel also without Ron ...

Stop right there, you are obviously a big Ron Artest fan, so am I, he is a great talent isn't he? Now think for a moment what kind of talented outside threat we could get for him, put that player in his place, then continue with what you were about to say. If we didn't have Ron, we'd have someone with just as many skills (maybe more) in other areas than Ron.

You assume I am a Ron Artest Fan , I am not !!!!! I respect Ron's game , Just like I respect Kobe's game and so forth.

No one in there right mind will Trade Ron Artest , 1-1 for a SuperStar Elite player and if they would they shouldn't be a GM. Sorry your gonna have to give up more than Ron to get 1 Elite Player.

You're right, but you're wrong, as well. In a normal season, Ron Artest will not get you an elite player. However, this isn't a normal season. Teams aren't going to be getting a lot of help this season through the draft (it's sub-par). There are also no less than 3 "as good as Ron or better" guards who are unhappy in their current situation. If those 3 teams don't work a trade, they just might be left with nothing after next season. Ray Allen has come right out and said he doubts he'll re-sign with Seattle next year. Tracy McGrady has said he would prefer to leave Orlando this year, because he doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding plan. Allen Iverson is having a very hard time in Philly.

In any other year, Ron wouldn't get these guys. But this year, he could, especially when you consider that Seattle could use a guy to pair with Rashard Lewis at the 2-3 spots. In Orlando, Ron Artest would get to be the 1st option on a team that will have young talent and the ability to build around him. In Philly, the fans love a hard-nosed, physical player, and Ron would fit the bill in that regard. He'd also be paired with one of the best defensive coaches in the league, Dick Harter (more on that later).

If you trade Al and bring in a guy like Q. Richardson, J. Richardson, etc. who is still good enough to start in front of Reggie, but not better than Ron, you're going to have definite problems when Ron is shooting the ball instead of passing to the 35-40% 3pt percentage shooting guard. Invariably, someone isn't going to be happy being the 3rd option on the team. Al will accept being the 3rd option if Ray Allen or TMAC is the 2nd option. He'll also be able to focus more on his defense, which is formidable when he actually focuses on it.

I also think Ron was a better defender under Isiah than he was this past season. The truth is, Ron isn't a great help defender. He's much better in a scheme that allows him to gamble a little in the passing lanes. If he was on a team with lesser talent, he'd be allowed to do that more. This is one reason of all the guys we could trade for, I don't want to see him traded to Philly for Iverson. First, Iverson doesn't fit in really well here. We don't have an oversized point guard who can guard shooting guards on the team (unless Fred's handles get a lot better in the off-season). As such, Iverson would be a liability every time down the floor. Big shooting guards would post him up all night long. On the other side of things, Ron Artest would be paired with Dick Harter. We've seen what Dick can do with a defensively mediocre 98-00 Pacers team. We saw in 03 what he did with a slightly above average or average Celtics team. You give him Ron Artest to play with, he'll destroy teams defensively, as long as he gets the right personnel surrounding him, and Delambert is a great start towards that.

Anyway, I think that for chemistry reasons, Ron Artest should be the one traded, unless you're trading Al for a Center, or another player that is somehow better than Ron Artest. Regardless, if we want to get to the finals, Reggie Miller cannot be our best shooting guard next season. Either Fred's got to improve, we've got to sign somebody, or we've got to pull the trigger on the trade. Carlisle's offense revolves around isos and ball movement to the open shooter. Ron and Al are equally bad about hogging the ball, but when their powers combine, it's unbearable. At least Al would pass the ball to somebody like Ray Allen. Ron wouldn't pass to Jason Richardson, bet on it :)

As for who we target? Well, I'd love to see Ron for T-Mac. Barring that, I'd love to see Ray Allen in a Pacers uni. The major knock on Tracy is that he doesn't have a lot of success in the playoffs, and hasn't played on a lot of really good teams as the first option. Ray Allen has been on several playoff teams, a couple of which have gone deep into the playoffs, and he was a major factor in those runs. Also, Ray Allen is still under 30, so he's got a few good years left. He's also a better shooter than McGrady, although not as good at creating his own shot (but still better than anyone currently on our roster).

indygeezer
06-07-2004, 07:35 AM
Yes but what else do we have to give up to get a T-mac or a R Allen. THeir salaries are so far above Ron''s we'd have to give up more to get the job done. Yeah I know AC and Pollard would be throw ins IF the other teams are willing to accept their BAD contracts (well AC certainly helped his trade value this year) but that is a big IF.

Another thought or question/comment. I am not convinced Al would be happy being the 2nd or 3rd option even if starting. Since his 40 point game I have had the feeling he sees himself as THEE MAN period. I get the feeling that's the role he wants and feels is his destiny. I which case, he'll never be happy here.

All together. I guess I'm with the one who said earlier that I wouldn't complain too much if they traded BOTH of them this year.

(I'll bet WRITERMAN is just LOVING this conversation).

able
06-07-2004, 07:43 AM
Well no matter how you look upon it, losing Ron would be hard.
Losing Al on the other hand........

One less blacak hole to be concerned about and yes, He will never be satisfied by being in the shadow.
Being behind JO AND an A grade SG is NOT his wish.
He wants to start because he knows he IS the man.

THAT is the main reason he should move on.

He is not, nor will he ever be THE man on the Pacers.

indygeezer
06-07-2004, 07:51 AM
Anybody have the +\- stats for JO + Ron compared to JO + Al ???


How much did we see JO + Al other than when RA was injured? I do seem to remember AL be really frustrated with himself when he had the opportunity to step up when Ron went down with his surgery. IIRC Al failed badly his 1st game out of the box with Ron on the sidelines. (I know that's 1 game)

able
06-07-2004, 08:55 AM
only the 5 man stats on 82games.com but you have seen what we've all seen, AL as a starter does not work that well. see the last game we played.

Unclebuck
06-07-2004, 09:06 AM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

DisplacedKnick
06-07-2004, 09:15 AM
Guess I'll chime in.

There are only two reasons to trade Ron over Al.

First is if you decide you want to change the face of the team. Ron's critical to how the team plays on defense. Personally, you won 61 games last year - I don't see that as being good.

Second is because he could get you more in return. I go back to my old mantra that anything's for sale if the price is right. Bird & Walsh have to decide what deal would allow them to wave good-bye to Ron with a smile on their face. Obviously a Duncan, Garnett, LeBron or T-Mac would do that.

Al's a nice player and helps a bunch but he's also a reserve.

BTW - I don't see that Artest took different shots or played much different in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. But teams defensed him much better and we all know that while he's a good offensive player, he's not a Kobe, T-Mac or Paul Pierce.

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 09:48 AM
I want Ron here. He is too valuable to this team in my opinion for him to be let go. His defense here has gone underappreciated and people take it as a given. You don't seem to realize just how good he is. Al is not even close. Neither is Fred.

Artest is one of a kind. How can you complain about what he did this year? Without him, we don't come close to 50 wins. Without him, we don't go to the ECFs. There is no one out there I would rather have on this team.

Yes, he made some mistakes. Who doesn't? And as far as being "mentally stable", I think he is more of that than Al. How many times have we seen Al pout when he isn't in the game, or he doesn't get the ball. And have we seen him pass the ball? I haven't. Ron distributes well, and only when he gets nervous does he tend to "hog" the ball.

I think that his offensive game is giong to improve this summer, and his judgment on how to play the game will also improve. And I think the coaching staff will have some input on that.

Snickers
06-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Ron Artest. 18 points per game, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals. All while playing DPOY-caliber defense, and never taking a day off, or even taking a single play off. There are not many guys I'd trade him for.

That said, if there's a deal we can't refuse [like Tmac], it may be something that needs to be done. But even then, I'd have to weigh Ron's value to the team against the value the new player would have [not just his value on his old team].

If Ron improves in these areas, he'll be more valuable than even Tmac, IMO:

1] shot selection. No more jacking up 30-foot threes early in the shot clock.

2] distributing the ball. It's good to have someone who's willing to create offense in crunch time, but Ron can't keep taking it all on himself. Get the ball to Jermaine, at least some of the time.

3] shooting. He's already a pretty good shooter, I just think everyone should work on their shooting.

I think Ron thinks of himself as the man. But it's not the "I'm THE MAN!" mentality that many see in Al, it's more like "My team needs me to be THE MAN."

Eindar
06-07-2004, 05:07 PM
I want Ron here. He is too valuable to this team in my opinion for him to be let go. His defense here has gone underappreciated and people take it as a given. You don't seem to realize just how good he is. Al is not even close. Neither is Fred.

Artest is one of a kind. How can you complain about what he did this year? Without him, we don't come close to 50 wins. Without him, we don't go to the ECFs. There is no one out there I would rather have on this team.

Yes, he made some mistakes. Who doesn't? And as far as being "mentally stable", I think he is more of that than Al. How many times have we seen Al pout when he isn't in the game, or he doesn't get the ball. And have we seen him pass the ball? I haven't. Ron distributes well, and only when he gets nervous does he tend to "hog" the ball.

I think that his offensive game is giong to improve this summer, and his judgment on how to play the game will also improve. And I think the coaching staff will have some input on that.

Ok, I'm tired of this line of thinking, so I'm going to bust it's chops right now.

Ya, if Ron had been sucked into some sort of temporal rift during training camp, leaving us without him this past season, we wouldn't have won 50 games. However, if that same temporal rift spit out either Ray Allen or Tracy McGrady, we win at least 60 games in the regular season, and we're up on the Lakers 1-0 right now.

Point being: Ron doesn't live in a vacuum. We're not trading him for beer and peanuts, we'd be getting back a very high-quality player who fills a need for the team.

Diamond Dave
06-07-2004, 05:12 PM
In answer to the title question yes. I feel Al is only a few steps behind Ron and we need an elite sg that only Ron could command. So Al could step in and perform admirably and we would upgrade by the 2 guard by 10 fold

TheSauceMaster
06-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Ok, I'm tired of this line of thinking, so I'm going to bust it's chops right now.

Ya, if Ron had been sucked into some sort of temporal rift during training camp, leaving us without him this past season, we wouldn't have won 50 games. However, if that same temporal rift spit out either Ray Allen or Tracy McGrady, we win at least 60 games in the regular season, and we're up on the Lakers 1-0 right now.

Point being: Ron doesn't live in a vacuum. We're not trading him for beer and peanuts, we'd be getting back a very high-quality player who fills a need for the team.

Intresting so your saying our defense would have been as good without Ron and Adding more Offense with Less Defense would have still got us 60 Games ? There are many games we played horid on Offense and our Defense Bailed us out , basically we would have been a Clone of the Lakers in the Eastern Confrence.

LAPacer
06-07-2004, 06:10 PM
Only problem with Ron is when the team is losing. I don't see the team losing much as long as Ron stays on the team and we get upgrades at 2 guard by getting rid of Al.

beast23
06-07-2004, 06:46 PM
I want Ron here. He is too valuable to this team in my opinion for him to be let go. His defense here has gone underappreciated and people take it as a given. You don't seem to realize just how good he is. Al is not even close. Neither is Fred.

Artest is one of a kind. How can you complain about what he did this year? Without him, we don't come close to 50 wins. Without him, we don't go to the ECFs. There is no one out there I would rather have on this team.

Yes, he made some mistakes. Who doesn't? And as far as being "mentally stable", I think he is more of that than Al. How many times have we seen Al pout when he isn't in the game, or he doesn't get the ball. And have we seen him pass the ball? I haven't. Ron distributes well, and only when he gets nervous does he tend to "hog" the ball.

I think that his offensive game is giong to improve this summer, and his judgment on how to play the game will also improve. And I think the coaching staff will have some input on that.

Ok, I'm tired of this line of thinking, so I'm going to bust it's chops right now.

Ya, if Ron had been sucked into some sort of temporal rift during training camp, leaving us without him this past season, we wouldn't have won 50 games. However, if that same temporal rift spit out either Ray Allen or Tracy McGrady, we win at least 60 games in the regular season, and we're up on the Lakers 1-0 right now.

Point being: Ron doesn't live in a vacuum. We're not trading him for beer and peanuts, we'd be getting back a very high-quality player who fills a need for the team.Yet your analysis is done in a vacuum because it does not consider that it would take TWO Ron's plus a little more to make a trade to get back T-Mac or Allen. And.... going into this season, both were considered to be significantly better than Ron, since no one really knew what Ron would become this season.

So, what it really boils down to is this. Would it have been worth it to trade both Al and Ron (ignoring his BYC status this past season) to get T-Mac or Allen..... because that is what it would have taken!!!!

So, under that scenario, we would have had JO and either of T-Mac or Allen at SG, and one hell of a hole at SF. Two scorers and two scorers only in the lineup, no matter how you size it up. Oh yeah, and one hell of a hole on the bench, too. Since Al wouldn't have been there.

So no decent player at SF, no Al off the bench, and no defensive "attitude" without Ron. And probably missing another player as well, like maybe Freddie.

Now, how the hell do you see that team winning 60 games?

Me thinks we got a lot of people amongst our ranks who need "to get a clue".

T-Mac and Allen are NOT gods. Especially on the defensive end of the floor. But they are very good offensive players. Under your scenario they would merely plug one hole while exposing another. We may or may not score more points with them on the team under your scenario, since we would probably be missing both Ron and Al. But I guarantee that we would be giving up quite a few more points.

Under those circumstances, I think our win total would be more like 45, maybe 50. But a hell of a long way from 60.

Peck
06-07-2004, 07:19 PM
FBOF, your post calls into question the Godhood of Allen & T-Mac.

But it can just as easily be said that of Ron as well. Do you realize that some people on here have said that Duncan or Garnett for Artest? Are you kidding me?

If that's the case then for the love of God, let's trade O'Neal right now & save some cash.

Ron is a great player, nobody is stating he is not. However I think some people on here are way way way overvaluing the guy.

BTW, I have to ask why some of you think so lowly of our team? Some of you guys act as though Ron were the only person to play defense on our squad & that if he weren't here we would be a pitifull defensive squad.

Is that what you really think of Carlisle's system? It's all based on one player? Yes, Ron is a special defensive player but I think our system is pretty good as well.

BTW, everybody seems to forget one thing. When T-Mac came from Toronto the thought on him was that he was a hell of a defender. Somehow because he scores people now think he sucks.

MarionDeputy
06-07-2004, 07:54 PM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

I think the thing to look at is even though Ron has a developing offensive game, you can theoretically say that Al might be able to match it given the same minutes, but when you look at the defensive side of the match up there is no comparison. The Pacers defense goes big time down hill with the loss of Artest, and as were begining to see, first with the Spurs and now Detroit, and not to diminish our own skills, the Pacers, Defense is what wins championships.

able
06-07-2004, 09:17 PM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

I think the thing to look at is even though Ron has a developing offensive game, you can theoretically say that Al might be able to match it given the same minutes, but when you look at the defensive side of the match up there is no comparison. The Pacers defense goes big time down hill with the loss of Artest, and as were begining to see, first with the Spurs and now Detroit, and not to diminish our own skills, the Pacers, Defense is what wins championships.AL does not match the offensive output of Ron:

regular season;
Minutes, Ron 37, Al 31
points, Ron 18.3, Al 13.3
Reb. Ron 5.3 Al 6.4
Ast ROn 3.7, Al 1.7
Steals Ron 2, Al 1

Playoffs:

Minutes Ron, 38.9 Al 28.4
points, Ron 18.4 Al 9.5
Reb Ron 6.5 Al 6.4
Ast Ron 3.2 Al 0.8
Steals Ron 1.4 Al 1.4
Blocks Ron 1 AL 0.5

not even close.

beast23
06-07-2004, 09:19 PM
FBOF, your post calls into question the Godhood of Allen & T-Mac.

But it can just as easily be said that of Ron as well. Do you realize that some people on here have said that Duncan or Garnett for Artest? Are you kidding me?

If that's the case then for the love of God, let's trade O'Neal right now & save some cash.

Ron is a great player, nobody is stating he is not. However I think some people on here are way way way overvaluing the guy.

BTW, I have to ask why some of you think so lowly of our team? Some of you guys act as though Ron were the only person to play defense on our squad & that if he weren't here we would be a pitifull defensive squad.

Is that what you really think of Carlisle's system? It's all based on one player? Yes, Ron is a special defensive player but I think our system is pretty good as well.

BTW, everybody seems to forget one thing. When T-Mac came from Toronto the thought on him was that he was a hell of a defender. Somehow because he scores people now think he sucks.I do like Artest, there is no hiding that.

But when we start talking in hypotheticals, there is one thing I can't get around..... and that's dollars. Sorry, I'm a realist. I can't merely look at having a T-Mac, Allen, Carter or whomever on the team as though it were a straight up trade for Artest, because it wouldn't be.

If it were that simple, and for example, the Magic demanded Ron in a straight up trade, then I would do it because we would still have Al. Now I don't think a lineup of having Al at SF is great by any means, but it is acceptable considering we'd be looking at T-Mac at guard.

You never know what Orlando's GM would do if pushed into a corner by T-Mac, but I'd have to think that one of Al+Pollard+filler or Al+Austin+filler isn't going to get the job done. I wish it were that simple. I don't know how their GM perceives Ron. But from our perspective, Ron+Pollard+filler or Ron+Austin+filler is stronger than a trade with Al. The only question would be whether they would require Ron+Al+filler. I would if I were their GM.

Regarding Carlisle's defensive scheme and Ron's part in it, I believe that our defense this season would be much improved even without Ron's contributions. But I think our defense this season was great because of Ron's contributions. I see no one else on our roster even remotely capable of making his all-around defensive contributions. Certainly not Al, who is a decent enough defender of PFs, but an adequate defender of SFs. I just don't believe that Al ever will regain his lateral mobility following his knee surgery.... therefore I question his defensive effectiveness at SF.

As to T-Mac's defensive prowess, or lack thereof, I've never thought of him as anything but an average defender at SG. I think he can be taken off the dribbler fairly easily. But I would like to see how he would do in a defensive scheme like ours or Detroits. I think a team concept would greatly improve his defensive performance, much like Tinsley's was helped by Carlisle's system this season.

Bottom line is that given a choice, I would sacrifice Al to gain either an improvement at guard or someone to share minutes with Foster at center. If we can accomplish that and still hang onto Ron, I think our team will be better off for it. That would leave the $5.1M MLE to fill the other hole..... if Donnie and Larry are allowed to use it in the event that Reggie does not retire.

MarionDeputy
06-07-2004, 09:42 PM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

I think the thing to look at is even though Ron has a developing offensive game, you can theoretically say that Al might be able to match it given the same minutes, but when you look at the defensive side of the match up there is no comparison. The Pacers defense goes big time down hill with the loss of Artest, and as were begining to see, first with the Spurs and now Detroit, and not to diminish our own skills, the Pacers, Defense is what wins championships.AL does not match the offensive output of Ron:

regular season;
Minutes, Ron 37, Al 31
points, Ron 18.3, Al 13.3
Reb. Ron 5.3 Al 6.4
Ast ROn 3.7, Al 1.7
Steals Ron 2, Al 1

Playoffs:

Minutes Ron, 38.9 Al 28.4
points, Ron 18.4 Al 9.5
Reb Ron 6.5 Al 6.4
Ast Ron 3.2 Al 0.8
Steals Ron 1.4 Al 1.4
Blocks Ron 1 AL 0.5

not even close.

I wouldn't have guessed the numbers would have been that far apart, even more convincing evidence that we'd be foolish to give up Artest over AL, its a short list of guys who bring it on both ends of the court

waterjater
06-07-2004, 10:51 PM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

I think the thing to look at is even though Ron has a developing offensive game, you can theoretically say that Al might be able to match it given the same minutes, but when you look at the defensive side of the match up there is no comparison. The Pacers defense goes big time down hill with the loss of Artest, and as were begining to see, first with the Spurs and now Detroit, and not to diminish our own skills, the Pacers, Defense is what wins championships.AL does not match the offensive output of Ron:

regular season;
Minutes, Ron 37, Al 31
points, Ron 18.3, Al 13.3
Reb. Ron 5.3 Al 6.4
Ast ROn 3.7, Al 1.7
Steals Ron 2, Al 1

Playoffs:

Minutes Ron, 38.9 Al 28.4
points, Ron 18.4 Al 9.5
Reb Ron 6.5 Al 6.4
Ast Ron 3.2 Al 0.8
Steals Ron 1.4 Al 1.4
Blocks Ron 1 AL 0.5

not even close.

I wouldn't have guessed the numbers would have been that far apart, even more convincing evidence that we'd be foolish to give up Artest over AL, its a short list of guys who bring it on both ends of the court

Artest's playoff numbers either went UP or were flat to the regular season.

Al's numbers alwasy GO DOWN in the playoffs!

No comparison. No way would I trade Ron over Al. Getting worse in the postseason speaks VOLUMES! and his Defense isn't as good as everyone is making it out to be. Plus he's too soft, he should've smashed Tayshawns hand into the RIM and made sure that DUNK went in.

Water

indygeezer
06-07-2004, 11:41 PM
Were it not for the "flagrant" in game 6 followed by the 30+ foot shot at the end, would we even be having this conversation? Seems to me that much of my own concern re: ROn stems from that stretch of time. Had he not had the episodes would we be concerned about his 'migranes" his missed practice and taking his own flight. No, we'd be overlooking those. But everything just seems to mount up with Ron, as it always does.
Look, I don't particularly WANT to trade Ron...but I won' t be suprised if he gets traded. I'd PREFER it to be Al. But because of RA's history and his current value I mentioned him as a potential trade bait.
In my perfect world, we get a HIGH draft pick, a scorer , or a big man for Al.
But I trust DW and LB to know more what is going on behind the scenes and how the pieces fit and to act accordingly. So I won't be suprised or upset by any move made this year.

bulletproof
06-08-2004, 12:22 AM
Were it not for the "flagrant" in game 6 followed by the 30+ foot shot at the end, would we even be having this conversation? Seems to me that much of my own concern re: ROn stems from that stretch of time. Had he not had the episodes would we be concerned about his 'migranes" his missed practice and taking his own flight. No, we'd be overlooking those. But everything just seems to mount up with Ron, as it always does.

Look, I don't particularly WANT to trade Ron...but I won' t be suprised if he gets traded. I'd PREFER it to be Al. But because of RA's history and his current value I mentioned him as a potential trade bait.

In my perfect world, we get a HIGH draft pick, a scorer , or a big man for Al.

But I trust DW and LB to know more what is going on behind the scenes and how the pieces fit and to act accordingly. So I won't be suprised or upset by any move made this year.

Eloquently and brilliantly put. Couldn't have said it better myself. I would not be surprised at all to see Ron traded this summer because of the very things you said.

Bball
06-08-2004, 01:09 AM
So I won't be suprised or upset by any move made this year.

What would upset me is no move at all. Surely there is something out there to keep this team from treading water and give us a shot at Detroit besides standing pat.

-Bball

Hicks
06-08-2004, 01:58 AM
I'm no more thrilled with is faults than the next guy, but as has been said by several people, we can't afford to give up what he brings to the table on defense, and it would be a step backward to lose him.

Peck
06-08-2004, 02:03 AM
If the Pacers trade Artest for a starting shooting guard, let's say Ray Allen, thus moving AL to the starting small forward spot, I'll predict by December most of us will be saying that AL is not working out as the starting small forward. Many of us will be saying that AL can't guard many of the small forwards in his own conference. And to turn Peck's question on its head, will AL be satisfied with being the third option

I think the thing to look at is even though Ron has a developing offensive game, you can theoretically say that Al might be able to match it given the same minutes, but when you look at the defensive side of the match up there is no comparison. The Pacers defense goes big time down hill with the loss of Artest, and as were begining to see, first with the Spurs and now Detroit, and not to diminish our own skills, the Pacers, Defense is what wins championships.AL does not match the offensive output of Ron:

regular season;
Minutes, Ron 37, Al 31
points, Ron 18.3, Al 13.3
Reb. Ron 5.3 Al 6.4
Ast ROn 3.7, Al 1.7
Steals Ron 2, Al 1

Playoffs:

Minutes Ron, 38.9 Al 28.4
points, Ron 18.4 Al 9.5
Reb Ron 6.5 Al 6.4
Ast Ron 3.2 Al 0.8
Steals Ron 1.4 Al 1.4
Blocks Ron 1 AL 0.5

not even close.

Um, I hate to be the one to point this out but somebody has to.

Ron shot the ball 1,112 time for an avg. of 15 shots a game & Al shot the ball 909 times for an avg. 11 shots a game during the regular season.

For the playoffs Ron shot the ball 259 times for 17 shots a game while Al shot the ball 140 times for a total of 8 shots a game.

Assist mean almost nothing on this because of the way that they handle the ball. Ron dribbles the hell out of the ball & will pass when he does not have a shot while Al gets the ball usually in the post & come hell or high water he usually puts up the shot.

Ron produces his 5 more points a game because he shoot the ball 4 more times a game.

The reason the playoffs were so differant was because Ron shot the ball 119 more times & I might add he did that in one less game than Al.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. If given a starting role on a team that he was one of the two top choices Al could easily avg. 16-18 ppg.

I don't see the big differance you do.

Hicks
06-08-2004, 02:06 AM
Peck, Ron's D is the difference. We need it. I'd rather have Ron starting and giving 18ppg than Al starting and giving 18ppg, because of the other end of the floor.

Peck
06-08-2004, 02:13 AM
Peck, Ron's D is the difference. We need it. I'd rather have Ron starting and giving 18ppg than Al starting and giving 18ppg, because of the other end of the floor.

Actually, it's really not the difference.

The differance is, IMO, what is going on behind the scenes. If Ron didn't have other issues this subject would not even be talked about. How many of you really think that anybody would willingly want to part with the D.P.O.Y. & an 18 ppg. scorer if there wasn't something else that almost everybody other than his closest supporters sees.

Besides that was not Able's point anyway. He was stating that there was a HUGE differance between Ron & Al on offense & I was just trying to point out a reason why it is not what it appears to be in the ppg. race.

Hicks
06-08-2004, 02:22 AM
I'm just saying, from a pure basketball standpoint, that defensively it'd be a mistake to move Ron because we could never replace that.

Peck
06-08-2004, 02:24 AM
Ok.

But then I have to ask. Do you have to have that defensive presence to win from one player or can a system overcome this?

clownskull
06-08-2004, 02:35 AM
wow, this thread has gotten long. and that's a good thing. it tells me a good number of people are giving this scenario alot of thought. the thing about this is, i look at a few things like: given todays market, with all of the stuff ron does both good and bad- his salary is a super bargain. any other player who can do all that he does is going to cost a bunch. probably at least double what he's currently making. al is making slightly less than ron but, i really don't see him becoming as dominant as ron is. despite ron's superior defense, al does foul more often. even now he still has a really bad habit of going through stretches where he can pick up 3 quick ones in like 5 min or so. i thought by now with the solid minuetes al gets, that he would have figured out how to cut that out but he hasn't.

i think it's more than just the time he plays, it's the glamour of being a starter that al wants. that is worrisome to me. some guys just don't get it- they think that starting is more important than finishing. then of course there is that drop off in performance in the playoffs. it has happend every year with al. when other teams crank up their defense, al can't seem to bring it to the next level.

when thinking of trades, i can't think of anybody who can come even close to a matching salary AND match ron's value. i think we have a bargain with ron and a fair price with al. how we could swing a deal of trading ron and getting a fair compensation is very difficult. al might be undervalued some but, not nearly as much as ron. yet, with al's 2nd place finish in 6th man and his youth, we could swing him and perhaps somenone else and get a solid experienced- but not old 2 guard.

TheSauceMaster
06-08-2004, 03:05 AM
Actually AL makes more than Ron does

clownskull
06-08-2004, 03:35 AM
makes more than ron? damn!
i didn't realize that. just makes me all the more convinced ron is a great value.

TheSauceMaster
06-08-2004, 03:40 AM
Ron was like the 6th highest paid on the team this year and he bearly beat Reggie Miller .

1. JO
2 .Croshere
3. Al
4. Bender
5 Pollard
6 Ron ( only 74,000 more than Reggie)
7. Reggie

clownskull
06-08-2004, 03:48 AM
are you furking kidding me?
when i think of croshere making more than ron, it amazes me. but, pollard too!- i wonder how this world works sometimes :o

Unclebuck
06-08-2004, 09:22 AM
Ok.

But then I have to ask. Do you have to have that defensive presence to win from one player or can a system overcome this?


This thread has been great.

To answer your question Peck, The system can overcome. The system is more important. The system was able to overcome poor defensive guards.

However, weak defenders break down the system. Every possesion that Ron can guard T-Mac by himself, that enables Jeff, J.O and Al to stay home on their assignments, and that greatly helps their defensive rebounding.

Without Artest, and with AL at small forward the Pacers defense would have suffered, and the rebounding would have suffered.

As the playoffs were starting 7 weeks ago, I heard a very interesting stat.
The Pacers allowed the fewest second chance points in the whole NBA this season. One reason why is because of Ron's perimeter defense.


Let's talk offense. Could Al score as much as Ron, Yes. But the Pacers would not be as good of an offensive team with Al as the small forward.
Ron is more diverse, he can spread the floor better than AL.

One other point, before we all just buy into the Ron is bad and Al is good as far as attitude and all that stuff, let's not forget that when things don't go the way Al's wants them to he pouts on the bench much more than Ron ever does

bulletproof
06-08-2004, 09:53 AM
Bottom line is this: If Donnie and Larry trade Ron, it will obviously be with good reason. As Peck pointed out, you don't trade an all-star DPOY at the salary Ron makes if there's not something else going on.

Great thread though. I've found myself going back and forth on this several times.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2004, 11:15 AM
Bottom line is this: If Donnie and Larry trade Ron, it will obviously be with good reason. As Peck pointed out, you don't trade an all-star DPOY at the salary Ron makes if there's not something else going on.

Great thread though. I've found myself going back and forth on this several times.


Although it may not appear this way... I've really been going back-and-forth on this topic myself. I'm certainly not disputing that he's a great player - especially at the defensive end. The point that you don't replace a thirty-point scorer with two 15-ppg guys and how that relates to Ron's defensive presense - well that's a great point.

I don't trust him, therefore I'm really glad that somebody else has to decide whether - considering all the other variables - Ron's good qualities outweigh his baggage. I really can understand the case to keep him, whereas twelve months ago I thought that it was foolish to keep him (although, as I've said, we also had a different coach that I didn't trust, so that was compounding the problem.)

Hicks
06-08-2004, 11:51 AM
But then I have to ask. Do you have to have that defensive presence to win from one player or can a system overcome this?

I suppose it's possible a system could overcome it, but only if your team is a bunch of above-average defenders with terrific help D. And no matter what you can't replace Ron's D for isolation plays.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2004, 12:15 PM
I've seen a lot comments lately with disparaging remarks about Al's defense.

Does somebody that really pays attention to individual player's defense care to provide a scouting report on Al's defense? We know he's not as good as Ron, so I'm not looking for somebody to just say that... what specifically can he do/ not do and, most importantly, how does his defense today compare to his defense before he blew out his knee?

Suaveness
06-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Ok.

But then I have to ask. Do you have to have that defensive presence to win from one player or can a system overcome this?

I don't think I can put it any better than how UB said it. The system has the possibility to overcome, but in order to have a good system, I really believe you need the players to make the system work.

Without Ron, penetration and outside shooting would kill the defense, and we would tend to focus more on those people. And if that happened, others would get open. It is because of that Ron is so important. With him, we are able to play one on one and focus on the assignments given to them. This is what makes us a more succesful defense team.

Unclebuck
06-08-2004, 12:57 PM
I've seen a lot comments lately with disparaging remarks about Al's defense.

Does somebody that really pays attention to individual player's defense care to provide a scouting report on Al's defense? We know he's not as good as Ron, so I'm not looking for somebody to just say that... what specifically can he do/ not do and, most importantly, how does his defense today compare to his defense before he blew out his knee?


You ask an interesting question.

The biggest difference I see between AL and Ron is that Ron plays defense hard 100% all the time. Al plays it hard at times, he gets geeked up to play defense well at times. See this is what sets Artest apart, sure he has incredible defensive talent, but it is his intensity on defense that sets him apart. He never gives up on the play, how many times per game does he get beat off the dribble and yet he finds a way to get back into the play. And this incredible intensity, effort, energy, whatever you want to call it rubs off on his teammates.

Having said that let's talk about AL, I've already said he does not play defense hard more than 80% of the time. Once he is beat, he is beat, and is time for offense.

Al's lateral quickness since the knee injury has taken a turn for the worse, he simply cannot stay in front of people like he used to. Al's defense seemed good compared to Reggie's, Jalen's, Mullen's.

One other very important thing about AL that worries me is he has a natural tendency to put on weight, that is just his body type, as he gets older and older he will become more of a power forward who is incapable of defending small forwards. That has already started. Don't get me wrong it is not about staying in shape it is just a natural aging process.

Al is horrible following players around screens.

We all know AL is great at taking charges, that is his thing, he is good at it and deserves credit for doing that.

Remember game #2 of the Celtics series this year. Ron was suspended. Al guarded Paul Pierce in the first half, but not at all in the second. Reggie defended PP, Foster did, Bender did a lot, but AL did not at all in the 2nd half. That should tell us something.

Two years ago my dream was to have AL and Ron on the court at the same time, I thought that was going to be the best defensive combo in the league, well it never materialized after two full seasons, partly because AL has lost something defensively.

Now he is a power forward defensively. I would be very reluctant to assume he can defend small forwards in the future and it will get worse each season

waterjater
06-08-2004, 01:57 PM
[quote="Unclebuck"][quote]One other thing, When AL pouts, he hurt himself, and doesn't help the team. When Ron pouts, he hacks and commits stupid fouls that give the other team points, And/Or jacks up ridiculous shots while hogging the ball and costing us possessions and points. Gee, wonder which is worse???????

Huh!? When Al pouts he really hurts the team with a poor attitude and poor play. When he's not hitting his shot, his defense goes way down and the other team runs him over. Al is the only player on the team crying about his playing time. He has the attitude problem.

Ron made a poor decision in Game 6 and he's being crucified. What about all the poor decisions made thoughout that game, and all the shots Al, JO etc. etc. missed??? What about Reggie's Technical, whining and arguing with officials that really set the tone in GAME 5. THAT WAS A HELL OF A LOT MORE DETRIMENTAL TO OUR CHANCES than a B.S. flagrant foul in Game 6. We should never have lost game 5 and Reggie's attitude really cost us. AND I"M A HUGE REGGIE FAN!!

We wouldn't have won 50 games this year without Ron. I can't even begin to describe how many huge plays, huge shots and huge defensive stops he made this season. JO was HUGE, TINSLEY WAS HUGE, Al played great. THE TEAM and their togetherness this year was why we were successful.

We need to Add to this team without subtracting a key piece of our success. I believe Donnie and Larry can do this.

If Ron is traded, then I like many others agree there was some behind the scenes stuff we aren't aware of. Otherwise, he'll be back and better than this year!

Water

Unclebuck
06-08-2004, 02:39 PM
Pacerman, if you don't think perimeter defense effects rebounding, then I can't help you

bulletproof
06-08-2004, 02:44 PM
We wouldn't have won 50 games this year without Ron.

Um, that's what a lot of people were saying after we lost Brad (except in the present tense, of course).

Suaveness
06-08-2004, 04:53 PM
We wouldn't have won 50 games this year without Ron.

Um, that's what a lot of people were saying after we lost Brad (except in the present tense, of course).

Ron is MUCH better than Brad. Brad doesn't play defense.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2004, 05:00 PM
We wouldn't have won 50 games this year without Ron.

Um, that's what a lot of people were saying after we lost Brad (except in the present tense, of course).

Ron is MUCH better than Brad. Brad doesn't play defense.

So what. Nobody is saying to 'cut' Ron (at least not anymore). Ron's replacement may also be worth 11+ games per year (perhaps even more.)

I'm getting bored with that argument, because it doesn't give the coaches or management *any* credit. Rick, IMO, has proven that he can put together a strategy that maximizes the talents of his collective group of players while hiding many of thier weaknesses. Rick put together a strategy that allowed this team - with an admittedly unbalanced roster - to win 61 games and advance to the ECFs. So who really cares if the strategy might be different, as long as they're still effective?

Unclebuck
05-03-2005, 10:51 AM
I'm sorry, but I found this thread from a year ago and had to bump it.

Yes this is from a year ago

3Ball
05-03-2005, 11:04 AM
Really, it all sounds remarkably the same!

grace
05-03-2005, 11:29 AM
Here's my opinion. We don't have Artest now because he got suspended. If Al was still here we wouldn't have him either because he's hurt. Yes, if we'd had Al instead of Ron the suspension wouldn't have happened, but what difference would that make now. Maybe we would have won a few more games, but the same people would be hurt and we'd still be playing schizophrenic basketball.

Harmonica
05-03-2005, 11:42 AM
Here's my opinion. We don't have Artest now because he got suspended. If Al was still here we wouldn't have him either because he's hurt. Yes, if we'd had Al instead of Ron the suspension wouldn't have happened, but what difference would that make now. Maybe we would have won a few more games, but the same people would be hurt and we'd still be playing schizophrenic basketball.

So you don't think 11/19 took an emotional toll on the team?

Natston
12-19-2005, 10:43 AM
I'm sorry, but I found this thread from a year ago and had to bump it.

Yes this is from a year ago

I'm sorry as well, but I thought this thread was very interesting considering all the people who want to trade for Al...

Unclebuck
12-19-2005, 10:57 AM
One thing I love about these old threads is the posts that don't have a poster's name attached to it. It is fun to try and guess who it was

sweabs
12-19-2005, 10:59 AM
Oh God...thanks for bumping.

:mad:

Harmonica
12-19-2005, 11:28 AM
Who is bulletproof? The guy makes a lot of sense. Very fair-minded. Need more people like that around here.

BillS
12-19-2005, 12:01 PM
The relevance of this thread depends on whether you believe Al is the same person and player today as he was then.

I do not believe that is the case.

ChicagoJ
12-19-2005, 12:11 PM
Re-reading threads like this one should make it clear why I'm now in the

:sunshine:

brigade.

:D

Kegboy
12-19-2005, 02:00 PM
Haha! I didn't post in this thread!
Me neither! :highfive:

sixthman
12-19-2005, 02:28 PM
Who is bulletproof? The guy makes a lot of sense. Very fair-minded. Need more people like that around here.

bulletproof was evil but he was loved. :buddies: