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View Full Version : Are we "Croshering" Fred Jones a bit?



brichard
06-03-2004, 07:58 PM
I like the way Fred played in the playoffs... alot! But I think many are ready to give Fred the keys to the car a bit prematurely. He is a good defender, which he will always have... and that is nice. However, how good his offense will develop remains to be seen. Sometimes when a person becomes a bigger focal point of the other team's defense... you lose some of that luster.

Fred is a guy to me that isn't going to be able to create his shot at will. He can be a solid guard in this league as he develops, but I don't see him being the next MJ.

Most of you probably don't care, but this will probably be my last post until next year. With three kids I just don't have the time to get on much. But during the playoffs... I make the Pacers a high priority! :dance:

I still think the only way the Pacers win a championship is to have a superstar. The only guy on the team that has the chance to be that is Bender. He is the only guy on the team right now that is virtually unstoppable when he is on. Unfortunately, he just isn't very smooth. I have my doubts he ever will be, but I still see him as the only person to posess those superstar attributes. He can shoot the three, block you, and get to the basket from anywhere on the court in about 2 steps.

He can also, lose weight faster than Richard Simmons, Make more turnovers than McDonalds, and make you wonder how he is coordinated enough to walk, let alone play basketball.

Bender sure is a rare bird.

Jones can help, and he may get us to the finals. However, I don't really care much about winning the ECF. I want a championship.

Ensemble casts don't win championships in basketball, superstars do.

For the record, I do hope Fred has a breakout season. However, I think his offense is still suspect.

clownskull
06-04-2004, 12:14 AM
are we croshering fred? - god i hope not.i have been very impressed with freds play this season. he has made some very nice strides and i think he has a good deal of improvement in him left. do i think he is ready for the starter role? no i don't. i am afraid if we do star him, it could turn out like it did when we traded mark jackson and started travis best. travis struggled mightily and so did the pacers. i would look for someone else to be our starter for now. when you look at it, fred is pretty short at the 2 spot. i would like to see another guy who is at least a legit 6-5 or taller.

i can only think you must have forgotten about jermaine when you mention true superstar. i just don't see bender ever making it to that level. the guy has world class talent but i am not convinced his body is durable. i am also not convinced he has all the instincts and court smarts needed. i think bender is stoppable. it seems he was never on during the real playoffs. boston does not count since they were easily one of the worst teams ever to make the playoffs. bender will never surpass jermaine as one of the best players in the league - with the pacers or anyone else. do i think bender can improve? hell yes!, and he had better. we have given him 5 years to show us he was worth antonio davis and so far he hasn't come even remotely close. i hope with all my heart that j.b. stays healthy this upcoming season because if he gets hurt yet again- you should officially write this guy off as a bust. i am 3/4th's of the way there already.

Ultimate Frisbee
06-04-2004, 12:27 AM
Luckily he's not up for a new contract this year...

Suaveness
06-04-2004, 12:28 AM
HELL no. Fred has MUCH more improvement left in him. Trust me he is no Cro.

kerosene
06-04-2004, 01:04 AM
In response to the title question, yeah I think we are, a bit anyway. His playoff performance was one of the bright spots during the playoff run that ended in a pretty ugly way. It's easy to hold onto that.

At the same time, that momentum can carry over into next season pretty well (Zach Randolph really showed what he had late last year then in the playoffs).

I think Fred still quite a bit of work to do but he's showed some promise and more than just potential. I'm not ready to name him heir apparent but at the same time it really looks like Reggie needs to come off the bench.

If we don't come up with a SG this offseason then Freddie needs to be ready to play major minutes whether he starts or comes off the bench. He got some work to do this summer if he's going to be up for that.

Dukins
06-04-2004, 09:35 AM
Absolutely not. Fred grew so much from last year. He gained alot of experience in these playoffs. He played against some good sg and did damn well against them. If i were Carlisle i would have him shoot 2000 shots a day. If he could shot he would be a great player. Most of his shots seem very flat. Work on the arch Fred. ;)

LAPacer
06-04-2004, 09:46 AM
His shooting has improved greatly. I wish we could use him as our back up PG also.

ChicagoJ
06-04-2004, 11:02 AM
"Croshering" to me means overvaluing.

Luckily he's not up for a new contract this year...

I think that's the key here - hopefully by the time Fred's rookie contract is up, we'll have a better sense for his permanent 'level of play.' I think its a bit silly to assume that he's going to continue to improve by leaps and bounds every season, but if he gets some of the backup PG minutes next year we'll know a lot more about him. Yes, I expect that he'll make some strides next year, but not as much as was made this season.

Aside: its convenient to forget around here that DW was competing with Houston and Chicago to keep Croshere, and in reality we just payed Croshere's market rate at the time. Although his contract seems ridiculous in today's player market, he certainly wasn't overvalued by the Pacers when they re-signed him.

Roy Munson
06-04-2004, 11:18 AM
I don't know if the Pacers are "Croshering" Freddie...I tend to think they are not. But I see dangers of them "Harringtoning" Freddie next year, if Reggie Miller comes back.

Assuming that Rick holds to his "Reggie will start" statement, and assuming that Harrington will be moved for a top-level SG, where does that leave Freddie? Sitting a lot, I'm afraid, and not developing the way I think he could otherwise.

My opinion is that Freddie himself can be a top-flight SG. Very very good. It's about mentality as much as physicality. Freddie has "it".

Bender, on the other hand, has the physical tools, but I don't think he has the mentality to be a star.

The mental approach to the game is why some players seem to come out of obscurity from the college days to become great pros. Can anyone remember Karl Malone as a college player? No way he would have been drafted No. 13 if it was obvious.

Clyde Drexler absolutely could not shoot his first 2 seasons in the NBA. He learned what he could and could not do in the NBA, and became great. It was mental as well as physical. I see the potential for Freddie to do similar things, if he gets the opportunity to play.

Freddie has "it". and "it" is rare.

ChicagoJ
06-04-2004, 11:25 AM
I don't know if the Pacers are "Croshering" Freddie...I tend to think they are not. But I see dangers of them "Harringtoning" Freddie next year, if Reggie Miller comes back.

Assuming that Rick holds to his "Reggie will start" statement, and assuming that Harrington will be moved for a top-level SG, where does that leave Freddie? Sitting a lot, I'm afraid, and not developing the way I think he could otherwise.

My opinion is that Freddie himself can be a top-flight SG. Very very good. It's about mentality as much as physicality. Freddie has "it".

Bender, on the other hand, has the physical tools, but I don't think he has the mentality to be a star.

The mental approach to the game is why some players seem to come out of obscurity from the college days to become great pros. Can anyone remember Karl Malone as a college player? No way he would have been drafted No. 13 if it was obvious.

Clyde Drexler absolutely could not shoot his first 2 seasons in the NBA. He learned what he could and could not do in the NBA, and became great. It was mental as well as physical. I see the potential for Freddie to do similar things, if he gets the opportunity to play.

Freddie has "it". and "it" is rare.

I wish Freddie was as big as Clyde. That's always going to be a challenge for him - undersized #2's tend to flame out quickly once they lose the explosiveness required to play somewhat bigger.

That's the biggest reason I see him, long-term, as a combo guard.

Suaveness
06-04-2004, 12:00 PM
I don't know if the Pacers are "Croshering" Freddie...I tend to think they are not. But I see dangers of them "Harringtoning" Freddie next year, if Reggie Miller comes back.

Assuming that Rick holds to his "Reggie will start" statement, and assuming that Harrington will be moved for a top-level SG, where does that leave Freddie? Sitting a lot, I'm afraid, and not developing the way I think he could otherwise.

My opinion is that Freddie himself can be a top-flight SG. Very very good. It's about mentality as much as physicality. Freddie has "it".

Bender, on the other hand, has the physical tools, but I don't think he has the mentality to be a star.

The mental approach to the game is why some players seem to come out of obscurity from the college days to become great pros. Can anyone remember Karl Malone as a college player? No way he would have been drafted No. 13 if it was obvious.

Clyde Drexler absolutely could not shoot his first 2 seasons in the NBA. He learned what he could and could not do in the NBA, and became great. It was mental as well as physical. I see the potential for Freddie to do similar things, if he gets the opportunity to play.

Freddie has "it". and "it" is rare.

I wish Freddie was as big as Clyde. That's always going to be a challenge for him - undersized #2's tend to flame out quickly once they lose the explosiveness required to play somewhat bigger.

That's the biggest reason I see him, long-term, as a combo guard.

Fred hater :mad:

;) He is undersized, but he is strong, so it kinda makes up for it.

diego
06-04-2004, 12:22 PM
Freddie wil always be a great back up and spot starter. But he is not going to be the SG we need here as a starter to win the ring. Period. Freddie has a lot of good qualities but i think a lot of fans here are having a case of rosy wishing. Freddie has it? No, Dwayne Wade has it! LBJ has it! TMac has it!! Fred jones is nowhere the caliber fo those players. He will always be a great role player and thats ok...i just dont ever see him as a great starting SG.

ChicagoJ
06-04-2004, 12:27 PM
I don't know if the Pacers are "Croshering" Freddie...I tend to think they are not. But I see dangers of them "Harringtoning" Freddie next year, if Reggie Miller comes back.

Assuming that Rick holds to his "Reggie will start" statement, and assuming that Harrington will be moved for a top-level SG, where does that leave Freddie? Sitting a lot, I'm afraid, and not developing the way I think he could otherwise.

My opinion is that Freddie himself can be a top-flight SG. Very very good. It's about mentality as much as physicality. Freddie has "it".

Bender, on the other hand, has the physical tools, but I don't think he has the mentality to be a star.

The mental approach to the game is why some players seem to come out of obscurity from the college days to become great pros. Can anyone remember Karl Malone as a college player? No way he would have been drafted No. 13 if it was obvious.

Clyde Drexler absolutely could not shoot his first 2 seasons in the NBA. He learned what he could and could not do in the NBA, and became great. It was mental as well as physical. I see the potential for Freddie to do similar things, if he gets the opportunity to play.

Freddie has "it". and "it" is rare.

I wish Freddie was as big as Clyde. That's always going to be a challenge for him - undersized #2's tend to flame out quickly once they lose the explosiveness required to play somewhat bigger.

That's the biggest reason I see him, long-term, as a combo guard.

Fred hater :mad:

;) He is undersized, but he is strong, so it kinda makes up for it.

I know we've gone 'round on this topic some, but I don't consider 'combo guard' to be an insult. There are 96 guard minutes per game. If Tinsley and the starting SG each play 34 mpg, then the combo guard is also playing 28 mpg. I'd like to see Fred playing 28 mpg next season, I'm pretty sure that's still a signficant increase over his minutes this season. Yep, he avaraged less than 19 mpg in the regular season and the playoffs.

Fool
06-04-2004, 12:46 PM
I thought that perhaps a little stat comparison might help in the conversation.

03-04 Reg.Season
Gp - 82
Min - 18.6
Pts - 4.9
Rbs - 1.6
Asst - 2.1
A/To - 2.37

03-04 Post Season
Gp - 14
Min - 18.8
Pts - 4.7
Rbs - 2.4
Assts -1.1
A/To - 1.78

02-03 Reg.Season
Gp - 19
Min - 6.1
Pts - 1.2
Rbs - 0.5
Asst - 0.3
A/To - 0.83

Kegboy
06-04-2004, 07:28 PM
Freddie wil always be a great back up and spot starter. But he is not going to be the SG we need here as a starter to win the ring. Period. Freddie has a lot of good qualities but i think a lot of fans here are having a case of rosy wishing...He will always be a great role player and thats ok...i just dont ever see him as a great starting SG.

I think Diego's got it here. Those who think Fred can (and should) take over Reggie's starting spot are definitely croshering him. I don't ever want to see Fred start, unless when someone's hurt. In time, he can hopefully turn into the mythical 3rd guard we've been looking for for so long, a Bobby Jackson/Tony Delk type player who'll give you important minutes at the 1 and 2, who could possibly turn into a 6th man contender like Jackson, but should never be a starter. That's nothing against him, but he just doesn't have the size to start at 2, nor the ball-handling abilities to start at 1, and I don't see that ever changing.

Hicks
06-04-2004, 08:52 PM
I think those of you who are saying Freddie's never going to start are making the mistake of assuming he won't improve.

As he is right now, he wouldn't make a good starter. He wouldn't suck, but I wouldn't recommend it either.

But I think he's gonna keep getting a better shot, more confidence, and probably some plays written for him, and you'll see a guy who's good enough to start, even if next year he still isn't. Kinda like Jalen in 1999 (well, sorta).

Kegboy
06-04-2004, 09:16 PM
I think those of you who are saying Freddie's never going to start are making the mistake of assuming he won't improve.

As he is right now, he wouldn't make a good starter. He wouldn't suck, but I wouldn't recommend it either.

But I think he's gonna keep getting a better shot, more confidence, and probably some plays written for him, and you'll see a guy who's good enough to start, even if next year he still isn't. Kinda like Jalen in 1999 (well, sorta).

I hate pigeonholeing a guy because of his size, but I really think Fred's just too small to be a starter at the two guard. But that has nothing to do with his talent. Kareem Rush may someday become a starter, but he's still a one dimensional player. Just cause I don't see Fred starting doesn't make me think he's not a better player than Rush.

ChicagoJ
06-04-2004, 11:38 PM
I think those of you who are saying Freddie's never going to start are making the mistake of assuming he won't improve.

Might be true. But there are plenty of people on here that are assuming his going to show the same dramatic improvement again next season and again the year after that. And again the year after that. And again the year after that. And that rarely happens - especially when the player spent four years in college - the year-over-year improvements are incremental. Adding the backup PG skills next season is a more realistic goal for Fred and his fans than assuming that his game is going to improve by > 500% again.

He's going to plateau sometime. Fact is, he's the same age or older than guys that certain posters are ready to give up on. :crazy:

Hicks
06-04-2004, 11:47 PM
I just feel he'll continue to gradually up his FG% and 3P%, and really for me that's all I ask. He plays defense, he's got a solid bball IQ, he's a decent passer, and is a great finisher. What more are we really going to ask of our SG?

ChicagoJ
06-05-2004, 09:37 AM
I think those of you who are saying Freddie's never going to start are making the mistake of assuming he won't improve.

Might be true. But there are plenty of people on here that are assuming his going to show the same dramatic improvement again next season and again the year after that. And again the year after that. And again the year after that. And that rarely happens - especially when the player spent four years in college - the year-over-year improvements are incremental. Adding the backup PG skills next season is a more realistic goal for Fred and his fans than assuming that his game is going to improve by > 500% again.

He's going to plateau sometime. Fact is, he's the same age or older than guys that certain posters are ready to give up on. :crazy:

What are you talking about? The only area that needs significant improvement is his mid range jumper. His 3 pt shot is ALREADY majorly better and he finishes as well as any player around.
Shooting is the easiest skill to improve. LOTS of players do it. Someone with Freddies work habits and determination most definitely will.
Adding PG skills to someone that doesn't have them naturally is INFINITELY harder to achieve.
You're going to be eating your words next season. :laugh:


Well, it will certainly be interesting, won't it? :cool:

Suaveness
06-07-2004, 08:46 AM
I think those of you who are saying Freddie's never going to start are making the mistake of assuming he won't improve.

Might be true. But there are plenty of people on here that are assuming his going to show the same dramatic improvement again next season and again the year after that. And again the year after that. And again the year after that. And that rarely happens - especially when the player spent four years in college - the year-over-year improvements are incremental. Adding the backup PG skills next season is a more realistic goal for Fred and his fans than assuming that his game is going to improve by > 500% again.

He's going to plateau sometime. Fact is, he's the same age or older than guys that certain posters are ready to give up on. :crazy:

If you are talking about Bender, then I scoff at you.

;)