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heywoode
02-23-2008, 02:03 AM
I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, or when I've changed my position on something. This is for you Elgin56...

I feel absolutely ill for Indiana University right now. It has become obvious to me that once Sampson broke the rules with phone calls, even if I don't feel like those rules are that huge of a deal, this situation was destined to explode into the sad state of affairs it has become. Once you break the rules with the NCAA, you either have to come clean and deal with the consequences or you have to start lying to cover your a$$. It is obvious to me which path Kelvin Sampson took.

My opinion right now may be based too much on emotion and not as grounded as it should be, but here goes....

Sampson should've gotten NOTHING but an escort out of town. He should've been paid what he was owed to the point he was at, and not gotten a nickel beyond that, regardless of whether an 'anonymous donor' paid the bulk of the settlement or not. The fact that there is an anonymous donor makes me uncomfortable even. I don't care if it left the door open for KS to sue IU by not paying him off. My feeling is that once the allegations turn into convictions (probably the wrong word, but you get the meaning...) there is no way he wins a wrongful termination lawsuit. He should have to pay IU damages, or should have to forfeit salary earned while CHEATING.

Now, on to the players.

I'm sorry that this had to happen to them, especially in the midst of a pretty nice season they are putting together. They have some impressive wins, and some disappointing losses, but 22-4 in the Big Ten is something to be damn proud of, and I think they haven't reached their full potential.

Having said that, anyone who misses another practice or misses a team function, or doesn't show for the bus to a game because they are sulking or making statements, or trying to dictate personnel decisions is CUT. Scholarship rescinded, benefits forfeit. Have fun paying the bills for school, and hope you can stay focused and stay in school on your own. Or just go. If I was the IU AD, I would play with the players you have left, and ride out whatever happens. There is no way in hell that college players should dictate who their coach is. I'm REALLY hoping that they are just showing the fact that they are still kinda kids, and still have some maturing to do, and are just knee-jerk reacting. If the mutiny continues, congratulations boys, you just burned down your season.

Sigh. I have to say that I haven't been that involved/interested in college basketball in quite some time. I got emotionally invested with the Pacers a long time ago (thanks Reggie!) and I simply didn't have the time to follow college ball at the same time. I've been keeping an eye on IU and the Big Ten (and the Top 20) for a few years now, but still not watching many games. Knowing enough to have a decent conversation with friends and family who are fully into college basketball was the extent of my involvement.

Last year when Chris Kramer, from the city I live in, went to Purdue and made such a splash, it got me invigorated to get more involved. I still like IU better, but when Purdue isn't playing my Hoosiers, I'm rootin' for the Boilers (even if I still like to call them the Toiletmakers!) and I'm watching the games. It helps me have conversations with the elder Kramer around the Courthouse where I work, and it has been pretty enjoyable to watch Coach Painter build the program back up to where it belongs.

All this rambling means one thing. I finally start to get back involved and get the sickness (the sad state of Pacerland was a big impetus) and then THIS happens. As I said to open this diatribe, I feel absolutely ill for IU right now.

I hope the Cream & Crimson can pull it together and move past this. They have worked too hard to let a cheater of a coach, no matter how much he was liked, ruin this opportunity for them.

GO HOOSIERS! (and Boilers)



http://youtube.com/watch?v=hdsCEFA1Ln0 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hdsCEFA1Ln0)

Kraft
02-23-2008, 04:13 AM
I understand the pain. Growing up in an IU family, it's been difficult to watch this debacle. I just cut Sampson loose a little earlier than most -- but I understand how some could forgive.

Luckily, I had every reason in the world to switch allegiances during the past five years. IU-Purdue always has been an amiable rivalry compared to others, and I could always root for the opposite team at times. I can again ... now that Sampson's gone.

Now, Notre Dame ... Touchdown Jesus can go to Hell. OK, scratch that, since it's probably a sacrilege. But something along those lines ...

DisplacedKnick
02-23-2008, 07:59 AM
I Having said that, anyone who misses another practice or misses a team function, or doesn't show for the bus to a game because they are sulking or making statements, or trying to dictate personnel decisions is CUT. Scholarship rescinded, benefits forfeit. Have fun paying the bills for school, and hope you can stay focused and stay in school on your own. Or just go. If I was the IU AD, I would play with the players you have left, and ride out whatever happens. There is no way in hell that college players should dictate who their coach is. I'm REALLY hoping that they are just showing the fact that they are still kinda kids, and still have some maturing to do, and are just knee-jerk reacting. If the mutiny continues, congratulations boys, you just burned down your season.


I feel for you guys too. The one bright spot is at least this time the AD isn't letting the players hold the school hostage like they apparently did with the BK/Mike Davis situation.

I agree with you on the players. IMO, if you missed the practice, you're suspended for today's game. If you miss the team bus, your scholarship is rescinded and you're gone.

Players need to understand that schools are pumping a large amount of dollars into these athletic scholarships and the responsibility they have isn't something they can take on and off whenever they feel like it.

Good luck - it was nice being back to the days when IU and Purdue were heading the Big Ten and the rivalry actually meant something. Hopefully that can continue.

D-BONE
02-23-2008, 08:55 AM
Ditto on the players, the "boycott", the scholarships, et al.

Could be the maturity issue. Either way it's blind loyalty. Sampson didn't give IU much choice. Their jerseys don't read Sampson Univ.

Kegboy
02-23-2008, 09:56 AM
I think those who are beating the drum essentially saying "**** the players" need to take a step back and look at the big picture. If players get cut for protesting how this has been handled (and I think everyone has to admit this has been handled poorly), how is that going to affect recruiting? How are prospects going to react to an administration that treats their kids like that?

I think Greenspan set the right tone by saying the kids are hurting right now and there's nothing wrong with being emotional about this. Sure, you can punish the kids if the need arises, but showing them the door is ludicrous IMO.

DisplacedKnick
02-23-2008, 11:21 AM
I think those who are beating the drum essentially saying "**** the players" need to take a step back and look at the big picture. If players get cut for protesting how this has been handled (and I think everyone has to admit this has been handled poorly), how is that going to affect recruiting? How are prospects going to react to an administration that treats their kids like that?

I think Greenspan set the right tone by saying the kids are hurting right now and there's nothing wrong with being emotional about this. Sure, you can punish the kids if the need arises, but showing them the door is ludicrous IMO.

Disagree 100%. Those players all made a commitment when they agreed to accept an athletic scholarship worth tens of thousands of dollars. They need to live up to that commitment. Those players skipping practice made a very strong, measured statement that they felt their interests should be placed above the interests of the University.

Sorry - we're talking college students here, not 8-year olds. They need to be accountable for their actions and if that means sitting out today's game, then it means sitting out today's game. And if they don't want to get on the bus to Illinois today, then they've decided they don't want to stay on the team IMO.

IU basketball has a long, very powerful tradition which will easily survive some players having a hissy fit.

Trader Joe
02-23-2008, 01:57 PM
As someone who is a twenty year old, I can fully understand where the players are coming from. It doesn't make it right, but for a lot of these guys Sampson has been much more than just a basketball coach. Particularly for DJ, Sampson pushed him to become the best player in the Big Ten and one of the best players in the nation.

heywoode
02-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Well, I can understand their frustration and emotions regarding the incident, which definitely was handled poorly. IU doesn't have much experience in this type of matter, fortunately.

I would make sure I contacted each of them and let them know that skipping the practice can be forgiven, as long as they get their emotions in check and understand the gravity of their actions. Once that has been communicated, make sure to let them know that any further skipping will result in severe penalties, including dismissal from the team. If they choose to continue "making a statement", it was nice knowing you.

It's not like they would get away with that in the NBA. They would be suspended without pay, and probably fined. Not only would they not be getting paid, they would be LOSING money.

Allowing the players to dictate personnel decisions sends a far worse message to potential recruits than punishing players for not fulfilling their obligations. Holding players accountable lets future players know that they can count on the university to fulfill it's end of the equation and that nobody will be above the rules. Even if it means forfeiting games. IU could do a lot worse than maintaining rigorous moral fortitude about now.

Trader Joe
02-23-2008, 02:01 PM
I agree that if it continues it must be handled, but right now I am trying to give the team some time to deal with their loss (don't really know how else to put it) and get their thoughts together. So I am willing to support them while they do that. They have earned that much from their play the past two games in the midst of all this controversy.

Trader Joe
02-23-2008, 02:05 PM
BTW everyone got on the plane this morning. Looks like the boycott is now a non-issue.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080223/SPORTS0601/80223001

Sollozzo
02-23-2008, 02:07 PM
As someone who is a twenty year old, I can fully understand where the players are coming from. It doesn't make it right, but for a lot of these guys Sampson has been much more than just a basketball coach. Particularly for DJ, Sampson pushed him to become the best player in the Big Ten and one of the best players in the nation.


And didn't White love Mike Davis as well? He has seen 2 coaches that he cared for and who evolved his game leave.....not even quite 2 calendar years apart.

Has to be tough.

Trader Joe
02-23-2008, 02:09 PM
And didn't White love Mike Davis as well? He has seen 2 coaches that he cared for and who evolved his game leave.....not even quite 2 calendar years apart.

Has to be tough.

Yes he did. White has probably had a more turbulent four years at IU than probably any other player that has ever worn the crimson and cream.

Shade
02-23-2008, 02:18 PM
Disagree 100%. Those players all made a commitment when they agreed to accept an athletic scholarship worth tens of thousands of dollars. They need to live up to that commitment. Those players skipping practice made a very strong, measured statement that they felt their interests should be placed above the interests of the University.

Sorry - we're talking college students here, not 8-year olds. They need to be accountable for their actions and if that means sitting out today's game, then it means sitting out today's game. And if they don't want to get on the bus to Illinois today, then they've decided they don't want to stay on the team IMO.

IU basketball has a long, very powerful tradition which will easily survive some players having a hissy fit.

Like it or not, a lot of players choose their school based on the coach they want to play for. If we hadn't hired Sampson, odds are EJ would be in Illinois right now. If we hadn't hired Mike Davis, DJ would not be a Hoosier either.

Loyalty is important, but at the end of the day, the kids are earning the school far more money by playing basketball than they're receiving via their scholarships.

Bball
02-23-2008, 02:46 PM
Like it or not, a lot of players choose their school based on the coach they want to play for. If we hadn't hired Sampson, odds are EJ would be in Illinois right now. If we hadn't hired Mike Davis, DJ would not be a Hoosier either.

Loyalty is important, but at the end of the day, the kids are earning the school far more money by playing basketball than they're receiving via their scholarships.

I think in Gordon's case a lot of it was who he DIDN'T want to play for: Mike Davis.

Whether he didn't like him, didn't get recruited by him, or knew Davis could/should be shown the door at any minute... I'm not sure.

I'm sure any coach brought in following Davis would've gotten Gordon's attention. I'm not sure how many of them would've actively pursued an already committed player though.

-Bball

heywoode
02-23-2008, 03:55 PM
Like it or not, a lot of players choose their school based on the coach they want to play for. If we hadn't hired Sampson, odds are EJ would be in Illinois right now. If we hadn't hired Mike Davis, DJ would not be a Hoosier either.

Loyalty is important, but at the end of the day, the kids are earning the school far more money by playing basketball than they're receiving via their scholarships.

That still doesn't mean they run the show. If it was simply a matter of economics, they would be paid to play.

Bball
02-23-2008, 06:03 PM
If it was simply a matter of economics, they would be paid to play.

That reminds me of the old joke from back in the day asking why certain U of Kentucky players didn't turn pro?

Answer: Because they couldn't afford the pay cut!

:rimshot:

-Bball

heywoode
02-23-2008, 06:06 PM
That reminds me of the old joke from back in the day asking why certain U of Kentucky players didn't turn pro?

Answer: Because they couldn't afford the pay cut!

:rimshot:

-Bball

It reminds me of the line from BASEketball when they said that everybody knows that Shaq got rich playing in college...

ABADays
02-23-2008, 06:52 PM
I am one that STRONGLY feels like Sampson shouldn't have gotten a plug nickel. Again, the lawsuit implication no matter where it came from was going to cost the university. And make no mistake, a lawsuit would have been filed because KS isn't going to be coaching D1 for quite a while. So it made sense for the school to do what it did. Of course, being a man of honor and integrity, Sampson accepted. I can't stand this man.

I was willing to take one step back for two steps forward with the players on this one. It was a pretty messed up day. Normally I would take the no practice no play stance. If the "boycott" extended beyond what it did it would have been pack your bags boys.