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View Full Version : Intentional, or accident? You decide.



Hicks
06-03-2004, 03:05 AM
Here is a clip of Tinsley's injury and JO's injury. Do you think the Piston players did anything to "assist" these, or was it just bad luck?

Right click, save as:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/youdecide.mov

Personally, I think the JO one was bad luck, but I kind of suspect the first one. It seems Ben sticks his leg out in front of Tinsley.

waterjater
06-03-2004, 04:10 AM
The undercuts on the rebounds are intentional acts by the Ben's and Karl Malones as it gives them an advantage. Did he try to tear JO's knee up...I hope not and the intention was to get the rebound.

The other is tough because they like to trap and trap aggressively.

Intriguing though how Ben is involved in both!

Water

Liquid Slap
06-03-2004, 09:50 AM
Come on man...No one is out there trying to injure the players. Especially somebody like Ben Wallace. Do you guys seriously believe that??

Ben and JO were coming down at the same time. It's not even like Ben set JO up to undercut him. They both jumped to get the ball and they came down at the same time.

Tinsleys injury was unfortunate too. Pistons were just trapping and placed his foot next to Ben's while running. Big deal.

You guys can't be serious about Ben wanting to injure another player on purpose.

Stryder
06-03-2004, 10:10 AM
Here is a clip of Tinsley's injury and JO's injury. Do you think the Piston players did anything to "assist" these, or was it just bad luck?

Right click, save as:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/youdecide.mov

Personally, I think the JO one was bad luck, but I kind of suspect the first one. It seems Ben sticks his leg out in front of Tinsley.

Hicks: Both were accidental. End of story.

It's ridiculous to even ponder that the injuries were inflicted intentionally.

fwpacerfan
06-03-2004, 10:25 AM
Ben definitely undercut JO. And I believe it was on purpose, but it wasn't meant to cause harm. It was done to gain an advantage.

I don't think Ben did anything deliberate in the Tinsley case. He just reached in for the ball and in doing so his foot ended up under Jamal's foot.

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Boy this Thread should turn in the a Flame war pretty quick and complaining about this is just sour grapes

Both were accidental. End of story

Suaveness
06-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Ben definitely undercut JO. And I believe it was on purpose, but it wasn't meant to cause harm. It was done to gain an advantage.

I don't think Ben did anything deliberate in the Tinsley case. He just reached in for the ball and in doing so his foot ended up under Jamal's foot.


I agree with this.

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 10:39 AM
Oh Lord you Guys act like this is the First time it has Happened in the NBA , I have seen this happen several times , it was misfourtunate but **** happens.

If this woulda have happened in the Season and Not the ECF would this thread even have been posted ? If we would have won the ECF would this thread be posted ?

All Nonesense

fwpacerfan
06-03-2004, 10:53 AM
Oh Lord you Guys act like this is the First time it has Happened in the NBA , I have seen this happen several times , it was misfourtunate but **** happens.

If this woulda have happened in the Season and Not the ECF would this thread even have been posted ? If we would have won the ECF would this thread be posted ?

All Nonesense

I don't think anyone has said it hasn't happened before. It has happened, several times. Fortunately it doesn't always result in injury, this time it did.

The only reasons we are discussing this is because it happened in the ECF, it happened to an MVP candidate and it changed the complexion of the series.

Fool
06-03-2004, 11:06 AM
How can you suspect Wallace of undercutting intentionally but not with the intention to cause harm? What advantage does one gain from standing under a player as he comes down from a rebound? Are you saying Wallace calculated his jump so that he would land backwards and under JO's butt just before JO landed?

Liquid Slap
06-03-2004, 11:09 AM
is anyone watching the same video I am?? They both jumped to get the rebound, Ben lost his balance because he landed on 1 foot and had to bend over to balance himself to keep from falling on the ground. None of that looked intentional. It doesn't even look like he "tried" to undercut Jermaine. Ben's focus was to grab the ball. He didn't have enough time to plot to undercut JO.

able
06-03-2004, 11:17 AM
If you look carefully, frame by frame even, you will see that at no given moment does Ben make a move to the ball.
His arm is besides him all the time, if he went for the ball, the least he would do is have a hand out.
Slow-Mo shows you something else then you are saying.

As for the rebound; yeah I believe he is going for the ball, with his back to that ball and the basket.........

Liquid Slap
06-03-2004, 11:23 AM
If you look carefully, frame by frame even, you will see that at no given moment does Ben make a move to the ball.
His arm is besides him all the time, if he went for the ball, the least he would do is have a hand out.
Slow-Mo shows you something else then you are saying.

As for the rebound; yeah I believe he is going for the ball, with his back to that ball and the basket.........

That video does not show what transpired before Ben turned around like that. The video starts on Bens decent. Ben is genius if he timed his jump so that he would land before JO in enough time to bend over and undercut him without looking intentional. That would be some serious planning and it would be malicious at that. I don't think Ben did that on purpose.

Fool
06-03-2004, 11:28 AM
Yesterday someone brought up the idea of Artest intentionally injuring RIP and someone replied with "If Artest wanted to hurt Hamilton, he would have killed him" (thats a paraphase not an exact quote)

I think the same can be said in this instance.

Hicks
06-03-2004, 11:30 AM
I'm just asking to see what you all thought; and I explained that I'm not convinced anything malicious took place. But the first part caught my attention just a bit, so I decided to see if anyone else saw it that way or not. This isn't a witch hunt, nor am I complaining- what's done is done; I'm just asking the question for the sake of something to do now.

able
06-03-2004, 11:30 AM
If you look carefully, frame by frame even, you will see that at no given moment does Ben make a move to the ball.
His arm is besides him all the time, if he went for the ball, the least he would do is have a hand out.
Slow-Mo shows you something else then you are saying.

As for the rebound; yeah I believe he is going for the ball, with his back to that ball and the basket.........

That video does not show what transpired before Ben turned around like that. The video starts on Bens decent. Ben is genius if he timed his jump so that he would land before JO in enough time to bend over and undercut him without looking intentional. That would be some serious planning and it would be malicious at that. I don't think Ben did that on purpose.

I never said it was "intended with malice aforethought".

However, this "way of rebounding" is seen more often, they are not going for the ball, just to make a point, make you think about going up again to often. Oh and it's a foul :D but never whistled.

I also notice that you are silent on the stepping in on Jamaal.

No matter what, it's irrelevant, there was no foul called, nothing and we were without our starting PG and had to make do with our Star playing on 1 leg.

Surely that improved Detroit's chances.

Hicks
06-03-2004, 11:31 AM
P.S., what's with people using "End of story." to end their posts? What is this, Yawk-ville?

Liquid Slap
06-03-2004, 11:33 AM
If you look carefully, frame by frame even, you will see that at no given moment does Ben make a move to the ball.
His arm is besides him all the time, if he went for the ball, the least he would do is have a hand out.
Slow-Mo shows you something else then you are saying.

As for the rebound; yeah I believe he is going for the ball, with his back to that ball and the basket.........

That video does not show what transpired before Ben turned around like that. The video starts on Bens decent. Ben is genius if he timed his jump so that he would land before JO in enough time to bend over and undercut him without looking intentional. That would be some serious planning and it would be malicious at that. I don't think Ben did that on purpose.

I never said it was "intended with malice aforethought".

However, this "way of rebounding" is seen more often, they are not going for the ball, just to make a point, make you think about going up again to often. Oh and it's a foul :D but never whistled.

I also notice that you are silent on the stepping in on Jamaal.

No matter what, it's irrelevant, there was no foul called, nothing and we were without our starting PG and had to make do with our Star playing on 1 leg.

Surely that improved Detroit's chances.

I am silent on Jamaal because it was obvious that wasn't intentional.

Fool
06-03-2004, 11:35 AM
...

able
06-03-2004, 11:37 AM
<shrugs> only in the eye of the beholder

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 11:40 AM
Yesterday someone brought up the idea of Artest intentionally injuring RIP and someone replied with "If Artest wanted to hurt Hamilton, he would have killed him" (thats a paraphase not an exact quote)

I think the same can be said in this instance.

Even though I am not a Ben fan, I agree with you. Ben doesn't seem to be the type of player what would intentionally try to hurt someones career. That man's name is Karl Malone.

ABADays
06-03-2004, 11:41 AM
These are just regular NBA injuries. Just our bad luck.

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 11:51 AM
These are just regular NBA injuries. Just our bad luck.


:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Stryder
06-03-2004, 11:58 AM
These are just regular NBA injuries. Just our bad luck.

Very, very true.

able
06-03-2004, 12:00 PM
oooh I agree with that, but.......

regular injuries does not mean that they did not happen "accidental", after all when you play Malone, getting your nose broke is also bad luck but a regular "Malone" injury :D

And yes to bad luck, no doubt, I started of by saying that the outcome was likely not intended, but that doesn't make the action intent-less.

Ultimate Frisbee
06-03-2004, 12:08 PM
I don't see Big Ben intentionally trying to hurt anyone... bumping is part of the game.

Liquid Slap
06-03-2004, 12:49 PM
oooh I agree with that, but.......

regular injuries does not mean that they did not happen "accidental", after all when you play Malone, getting your nose broke is also bad luck but a regular "Malone" injury :D

And yes to bad luck, no doubt, I started of by saying that the outcome was likely not intended, but that doesn't make the action intent-less.

So what other reason would you have to undercut someone :rolleyes:

fwpacerfan
06-03-2004, 04:17 PM
oooh I agree with that, but.......

regular injuries does not mean that they did not happen "accidental", after all when you play Malone, getting your nose broke is also bad luck but a regular "Malone" injury :D

And yes to bad luck, no doubt, I started of by saying that the outcome was likely not intended, but that doesn't make the action intent-less.

So what other reason would you have to undercut someone :rolleyes:

The reason you undercut someone on a rebound is because you are out of position and therefore you need to jump towards the ball. Jumping towards the ball, sticking your hip into the opponent may knock them off balance and give you a better chance at getting the ball.

Like I said before I don't think Wallace did it with malicious intent, but I do think he knew what he was doing and it did on purpose.

Hoop
06-03-2004, 05:37 PM
IMO this was one of the cleanest series you'll ever see. With all the banging, holding, grabbing and over all tough play there were not really any malious play from either team. I don't think Ben tried to hurt anyone, I don't think Billups tried to hurt Tins when he graped his ankle and I don't think Ron tried to hurt Rip.

Here's the Ron and Rip play. It was a weak @ss called flagrant IMO, that "could" have cost the Pacers the game. The crappy last 3 minutes was more responsible, but it was a huge factor in the out come from a mental stand point. He held up his arm and Rip ran into it and hit the ground on purpose. Ron did not lunge out at Rip or "throw" a elbow, it looked more like he was protecting him self while he was getting the refs attention that he was just hit in the nuts or somewhere.

Right click and Save Target As to View (Only 1.12 MB):
Ron & Rip Video (http://www.pacersdigest.com/RonRip.mpeg)

Edit: Thanks Hicks

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 05:50 PM
Nice video hoop, doesn't really look dirty at all. But the way people (people being the media) they make it sound like Ron was such a bonehead thug.

Hicks
06-03-2004, 06:54 PM
I uploaded the clip to the server.

(right click save as)

http://www.pacersdigest.com/RonRip.mpeg

able
06-03-2004, 07:03 PM
Well, one thing for sure, that kid sure learned to flop big time!

A. Elbow+hip into Ron, Ron steps back, now rippie comes elbow first into Ron, who raises his arm in protection. Rippie does a near perfect R.I.P. Swan and Ron (non-biased refs anyone?) gets a flagrant.

By Jove, anyone telling me that Ron did something to that rip-artist needs his eyes checked.

*sigh*

Mourning
06-03-2004, 07:32 PM
I uploaded the clip to the server.

I hope its not my pc, but I'm getting a "I cant find-page.\

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
06-03-2004, 07:41 PM
I uploaded the clip to the server.

I hope its not my pc, but I'm getting a "I cant find-page.\

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

I think I fixed it.

Mourning
06-03-2004, 07:47 PM
Yup! It's running now! thx! :)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 11:18 PM
A. Elbow+hip into Ron, Ron steps back, now rippie comes elbow first into Ron, who raises his arm in protection.

That's pretty much how I seen it , seemed more like a reaction to the previous action.

King Mob
06-04-2004, 01:14 AM
Since when do you protect yourself from an elbow to the midsection by putting your elbow up by the guy's face?

Rip obviously flopped (and how a Pacers fan can get on a player for flopping, I don't know) but to imply that Ron was trying to stave off an elbow to the gut (which is where Rips elbow is) and accidently got Rip in the face is ridiculous.

Hoop
06-04-2004, 02:56 AM
Since when do you protect yourself from an elbow to the midsection by putting your elbow up by the guy's face?

Rip obviously flopped (and how a Pacers fan can get on a player for flopping, I don't know) but to imply that Ron was trying to stave off an elbow to the gut (which is where Rips elbow is) and accidently got Rip in the face is ridiculous.

OK, even you admit it was a flop. No way it was a flagrant, Rip flopped and the stupid @ss ref bought it. I don't think anyone is blaming Rip for flopping just the ref for buying it. Wouldn't you be mad if it was the other way around and it cost your team in game 6 of the ECF with a tie score. If you can't understand that you're a bigger idiot than the ref was.

King Mob
06-04-2004, 08:00 AM
You say that like Artest was tying his shoe or something and Rip just bumped into him and fell down. In reality, he was busy planting his elbow in Rip's face, and was looking the official dead in the eye the whole time he was doing it. How you think that is a no call is beyond me. Yeah I would have been mad, were the situation reversed, because it was just a boneheaded play. Even if he thought it was a malicious butt-bump, he's gotta know that the refs always catch the reaction. Keep your cool and clock him with a hard pick on the other end, if you need getback. Don't send the guy to the line for two and the ball back in the biggest game of the season.

fwpacerfan
06-04-2004, 08:36 AM
Rip admitted after the game that his teammates told him lie on the ground and act hurt. To me the flopping is one thing, but to lie on the ground and act hurt so you can get a flagrant is questionable. That is pretty much cheating in my book. Of course the horrid NBA officials will buy into it so they are to blame as well.

It didn't look to me like Ron moved his elbow forward. Since when is a defender not allowed to put his arm against his chest to take the blow from a cutting offensive player? If that is a flagrant then the Wallace boys should have been ejected because they do that quite often.

Hoop
06-04-2004, 02:46 PM
You say that like Artest was tying his shoe or something and Rip just bumped into him and fell down. In reality, he was busy planting his elbow in Rip's face, and was looking the official dead in the eye the whole time he was doing it. How you think that is a no call is beyond me. Yeah I would have been mad, were the situation reversed, because it was just a boneheaded play. Even if he thought it was a malicious butt-bump, he's gotta know that the refs always catch the reaction. Keep your cool and clock him with a hard pick on the other end, if you need getback. Don't send the guy to the line for two and the ball back in the biggest game of the season.

Did anyone say it should have been a no call, NO, your making up stuff again. :rolleyes: It should not have been a flagrant.

Fool
06-04-2004, 03:17 PM
First of all, thats slow motion (look at Billups dribbling, clearly slow motion).

Second, Ron Artest called it a GOOD CALL! How can anyone call it a bad call when Ron Artest called it a good one?

"You're dead *****. You're dead *****." Those are the words that came out of Artest's mouth directed at Richard Hamilton after the Pistons scored four points on one possession due to his flagrant foul on Rip.

After the game Artest displayed no remorse at the turn of events that turned out to be the beginning of the end for the Pacers. It was a good flagrant call, he said. A good decision. Rip elbowed me in the stomach and I retaliated. I dont regret it, it happened in the game.

sweabs
06-04-2004, 03:18 PM
"You're dead *****. You're dead *****." Those are the words that came out of Artest's mouth directed at Richard Hamilton after the Pistons scored four points on one possession due to his flagrant foul on Rip.

Where did you get that from?

Snickers
06-04-2004, 03:29 PM
Ok, let's recap:

-Rip bumped/hit Ron in the nuts
-Ron stuck his forearm in the air in retaliation [his words]
-Ron's forearm + Rip's face
-Rip flopped and writhed in mock agony like a soccer player campaigning for a red card
-Pacers lose
-We complain