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Raoul Duke
02-15-2008, 10:18 PM
But how great would it be if IU admitted to be wrong and brought back the General for a few years? Let it end the way it should have ended. He can pick his successor and everyone is happy.


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/sports/hh/cuw/jp_lewisknight1226+Z.jpg
Greatest Basketball Coach of All-Time

travmil
02-15-2008, 11:19 PM
But how great would it be if IU admitted to be wrong and brought back the General for a few years? Let it end the way it should have ended. He can pick his successor and everyone is happy.

The only thing IU could do worse than keep Sampson, is to bring back Knight....

Shade
02-16-2008, 02:04 AM
But how great would it be if IU admitted to be wrong and brought back the General for a few years? Let it end the way it should have ended. He can pick his successor and everyone is happy.


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/sports/hh/cuw/jp_lewisknight1226+Z.jpg
Greatest Basketball Coach of All-Time


Have a short memory, do we?

grace
02-16-2008, 04:37 PM
I have a long memory so I remember the national titles and the undefeated season.

heywoode
02-16-2008, 05:24 PM
Some times recent transgressions overshadow past accomplishments.

No matter where BK goes, he will do what he wants, when he wants, and act however he wants. There is no room for that at Indiana.

I appreciate what he was able to accomplish, and the fact that he did it playing by the rules and graduating players. IMO, he had worn out his welcome and gotten too big for his britches, and I was glad to see him go.

I don't want him back, and I would like to see them get rid of Sampson.

If it took taking back BK to get rid of Sampson, my gut would tell me to deal with it. I suppose that is my way of saying that I would rather have BK than Sampson.

Bball
02-16-2008, 07:52 PM
I'm with Heywoode.

I was OK with Sampson initially because I didn't consider the phone calls that big of a deal and should be something easy to get a handle on. Recruiting at IU shouldn't be that hard anyway. But to continue doing it, even under extra scrutiny??? And I don't see any way to blame it on a misunderstanding and/or underling.

My only problem with the Sampson hiring was his age. I was hoping for a younger coach who I thought might have a longer shelf life and a little more flexibility. ...Altho Sampson has seemed flexible enough in his time here.

But Sampson has now made his bed so he's going to have to sleep there.

I was ready for Knight to be gone, but I didn't like the way they handled it or the timing.

I could probably handle RMK coming back to coach this final 1/2 season and then retiring and maybe that would settle some old scores for him plus clear the way for some deserved IU recognition for the good that Knight did at IU.

But I do not want Knight back on a permanent basis. Heck, I'd be worried what he might do these next couple of months to screw up a good thing with a second chance to write (or 'right') the final Bob Knight chapter at IU... let alone what he might do if given a few more years.

I just don't see RMK back anyway...
But I don't see Sampson back either...

The way I see it, in the end both of them screwed up a good thing.

-Bball

Stryder
02-16-2008, 11:03 PM
I have a long memory so I remember the national titles and the undefeated season.

Yes, those championships have happened very recently...Knight hasn't won a championship in over 20 years...and hasn't even gotten past the Sweet Sixteen games in 15 years...

It is one of those, what have you done for me lately? scenarios...has there been anyone who has done so little in the twilight of his coaching career and still get the accolades that Coach Knight does... ?

grace
02-16-2008, 11:42 PM
It is one of those, what have you done for me lately? scenarios...has there been anyone who has done so little in the twilight of his coaching career and still get the accolades that Coach Knight does... ?


Why does Knight still get accolades? Well, he got over 900 wins (while losing only 372), 3 NCAA Championships and an undefeated season. All that means is he won more games than any men's college basketball court, he's tied with Mike Krzyzewski for 3rd in multiple championships, and he's the last college basketball coach to have a team not lose a game in a season.

And then there's the fact that Knight has a very high graduation rate for his players.

I don't deny that Bobby is a jack ***, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a great coach.

Stryder
02-17-2008, 12:25 AM
Why does Knight still get accolades? Well, he got over 900 wins (while losing only 372), 3 NCAA Championships and an undefeated season. All that means is he won more games than any men's college basketball court, he's tied with Mike Krzyzewski for 3rd in multiple championships, and he's the last college basketball coach to have a team not lose a game in a season.

And then there's the fact that Knight has a very high graduation rate for his players.

I don't deny that Bobby is a jack ***, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a great coach.

And he hasn't done jack over the last 15 - 20 years....

Los Angeles
02-17-2008, 01:13 AM
And he hasn't done jack over the last 15 - 20 years....

:ding:

His true brutality began when he recognized his own obsolescence. the more his teams lacked the necessary talent, the worse he treated them.

How could a great coach also become such a terrible person? How could he so deeply betray the very principles he sought to teach? How could he cut in front of me at the Marsh salad bar?

Some questions will never be answered ...

B&G forever
02-17-2008, 08:56 AM
Bobby was most definately a jerk that needed to be put in his place. With that being said, he did do a lot for his players and school. Couldn't IU put something in his contract like they did for Sampson. I know it would be hard to put into worlds all of things he could not do, but there are alot of lawyers in this would that could try. This could be a great PR move if done correctly. Right now, I think they could use a little help in that department.

I will have to take a little exception to Bobby not winning recently. The team that Mike Davis took to the final four was a team made up of upperclassmen that Coach Knight brought in. Tom Coverdale and Jeffries to name a few were not Davis recruits. That team was an ankle injury away from winning it all.

This has been really hard for a Pudue fan to say. I think I need to lay off the Kool-aide for a while.:buddies:

idioteque
02-17-2008, 11:10 AM
Bob Knight can go coach at Dusquene for all I care, but he has no business coaching at IU.

Shade
02-17-2008, 12:14 PM
I have a long memory so I remember the national titles and the undefeated season.

No, that just means you have a selective memory. ;)

Shade
02-17-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't deny that Artest is a jack ***, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a great player.

Fixed. :devil:

Seriously, how can people complain about the behavior of the Pacers and then support bringing back Bobby freakin' Knight? :confused:

Stryder
02-17-2008, 01:04 PM
I will have to take a little exception to Bobby not winning recently. The team that Mike Davis took to the final four was a team made up of upperclassmen that Coach Knight brought in. Tom Coverdale and Jeffries to name a few were not Davis recruits. That team was an ankle injury away from winning it all.


You know the most important part of that statement...

Bob Knight was not the coach of that team.

heywoode
02-17-2008, 01:22 PM
I don't necessarily buy into the argument that BK hasn't done anything in the last 10-15 years. Even though his teams haven't had much postseason success, he has continued to win, even at TT. They were pretty close to nothing when he got there, and now they are at least known as a team that can't be overlooked or taken lightly. They have the reputation as a team that maximizes the talent they have, and as a team that plays the right way, and plays hard from start to finish. That is commendable.

It also speaks to the greatness of his coaching ability. Whether or not he has won it all since 1987 is kind of a moot point. It is undeniable that he last won the title with a team that was not the most talented, that he won the title in 1981 by getting that team to play to it's potential, and he won the title in 1976 with an immensely talented team that went 63-1 over two seasons, including the last perfect season (32-0) in NCAA history. Those aren't mildly significant accomplishments. Those are LEGENDARY accomplishments.

It would be different if he wallowed in squalor with crappy teams for the last decade, but he has continued to get the most out of his teams, and they have posted some very impressive wins. The level of parity has also risen dramatically in the last decade or so, making it more difficult to be dominant. There are teams that have made appearances in the Top 20 and done very well in recent years that were never even in the picture of national prominence before. That speaks to a much larger talent pool of kids playing ball, but also a much larger talent pool of quality coaches.

The only problem I have with Knight is that he thinks he is always right and that since he is always right, he is allowed to do and say whatever he wants. NOBODY should be in the position to have nobody to answer to. That kind of situation breeds the kind of behavior we have seen from BK, at IU and at TT. Nobody should be able to do and say whatever they want without fear of repercussions.

Having said that, there is no way that he can be controlled contractually. First, he would never agree to it. He would only go where he knew he could rule the roost and have complete autonomy/support from his "superiors", even though he wouldn't really acknowledge that he HAS superiors. Second, there is no way to verbalize it as anything other than a 'zero tolerance policy', and we all know how that worked out last time.

At the end of the day, it would be interesting if he returned to Indiana, and his return would certainly sell tickets and take the focus away from Indiana's first NCAA black eye in a couple generations. I could live with it and I would certainly be an interested spectator, along with the rest of the world.


You know the most important part of that statement...

Bob Knight was not the coach of that team.

Some might argue that if he was, they would have won it all. It's just as valid an argument as the other side of it.

grace
02-17-2008, 01:28 PM
No, that just means you have a selective memory. ;)


Fixed. :devil:

Seriously, how can people complain about the behavior of the Pacers and then support bringing back Bobby freakin' Knight? :confused:

I don't have a selective memory. It's just that when people keep talking about all the bad stuff I feel the need to bring up what he accomplished. And when people seriously keep bringing Knight up as a serious candidate for any coaching job I say I think they're freaking nuts to hire a man with his track record of how he deals with some people.

Personally I don't give a flying :censored: who IU hires.

grace
02-17-2008, 01:32 PM
Some might argue that if he was, they would have won it all. It's just as valid an argument as the other side of it.


QFT

Shade
02-17-2008, 01:37 PM
I don't have a selective memory. It's just that when people keep talking about all the bad stuff I feel the need to bring up what he accomplished. And when people seriously keep bringing Knight up as a serious candidate for any coaching job I say I think they're freaking nuts to hire a man with his track record of how he deals with some people.

Personally I don't give a flying :censored: who IU hires.

The fact that he won three championships is why he was fired when he was and not 5-7 years earlier.

Nobody will forget the titles; the banners are well documented proof of his legacy. But it also needs to be remembered why he was canned in the first place instead of retiring here.

Shade
02-17-2008, 01:45 PM
QFT

Or, they may have completely tanked.

The players seemed to respond pretty well to being out from under Knight's iron fist.

The fact is, Davis DID coach the team that went to the championship game, and Knight did NOT. And considering Knight's recent tourney track record, odds are that team wouldn't have gotten past Duke.

Trader Joe
02-17-2008, 02:46 PM
This has to be the largest cluster of anti-Knight people anywhere. Remember when he was first fired, Myles Brand was being burned in efigy (SP?) outside of Assembly Hall. One can argue that the only reason we are in the Sampson situation is the first place is because of Myles Brand. Who has always been a guy that needs to have the power. Even more than Knight ever did.

Los Angeles
02-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Bob Knight would have tanked that team in the second round just to "teach them a lesson." He had done that year after year before then.

To pretend that he would have gotten them to the final four is nothing short of delusion.

1) He gets pissed at some kid for making a simple mistake, 2) he blows it way out of proportion, disrupting the flow of the game and disrupting the confidence of his team 3) his team loses.

That tiger wasn't going to suddenly change its stripes.

BoomBaby33
02-17-2008, 03:01 PM
But how great would it be if IU admitted to be wrong and brought back the General for a few years? Let it end the way it should have ended. He can pick his successor and everyone is happy.


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/sports/hh/cuw/jp_lewisknight1226+Z.jpg

Greatest Basketball Coach of All-Time


I doubt if it would be a good idea for him to coach. As much as I loved him and watching the '81 and '87 teams win the title, today's college game has passed him up.

However, IU will soon need a new AD. The General would be awesome for that position. There definitely would be no more violations from any prospective coach. I think he would look to bring back one of his young former players - Dane Fife or Keith Smart anybody?

heywoode
02-17-2008, 04:42 PM
Well, I'm not saying I know what would have happened if BK hadn't been fired, but there isn't any more certainty on the side of the argument that they wouldn't have gotten past Duke, or that they would've tanked before that.

It is all speculation, and really has no meaning. My contention that they might have done better and gotten past a Maryland team that wasn't any better than Duke that year has no meaning either.

One way or the other, neither side of the speculation is delusional. It is simply opinion.

I also don't believe that there is a larger clump of Knight detractors here than anywhere else. He is definitely a polarizing topic in Indiana; people either love him or hate him. I hear both sides of it every single day, and I probably hear more negative than positive. Most people that I know are glad that he is gone.

Stryder
02-17-2008, 05:19 PM
I don't necessarily buy into the argument that BK hasn't done anything in the last 10-15 years. Even though his teams haven't had much postseason success, he has continued to win, even at TT. They were pretty close to nothing when he got there, and now they are at least known as a team that can't be overlooked or taken lightly. They have the reputation as a team that maximizes the talent they have, and as a team that plays the right way, and plays hard from start to finish. That is commendable.

It also speaks to the greatness of his coaching ability. Whether or not he has won it all since 1987 is kind of a moot point. It is undeniable that he last won the title with a team that was not the most talented, that he won the title in 1981 by getting that team to play to it's potential, and he won the title in 1976 with an immensely talented team that went 63-1 over two seasons, including the last perfect season (32-0) in NCAA history. Those aren't mildly significant accomplishments. Those are LEGENDARY accomplishments.

It would be different if he wallowed in squalor with crappy teams for the last decade, but he has continued to get the most out of his teams, and they have posted some very impressive wins. The level of parity has also risen dramatically in the last decade or so, making it more difficult to be dominant. There are teams that have made appearances in the Top 20 and done very well in recent years that were never even in the picture of national prominence before. That speaks to a much larger talent pool of kids playing ball, but also a much larger talent pool of quality coaches.

The only problem I have with Knight is that he thinks he is always right and that since he is always right, he is allowed to do and say whatever he wants. NOBODY should be in the position to have nobody to answer to. That kind of situation breeds the kind of behavior we have seen from BK, at IU and at TT. Nobody should be able to do and say whatever they want without fear of repercussions.

Having said that, there is no way that he can be controlled contractually. First, he would never agree to it. He would only go where he knew he could rule the roost and have complete autonomy/support from his "superiors", even though he wouldn't really acknowledge that he HAS superiors. Second, there is no way to verbalize it as anything other than a 'zero tolerance policy', and we all know how that worked out last time.

At the end of the day, it would be interesting if he returned to Indiana, and his return would certainly sell tickets and take the focus away from Indiana's first NCAA black eye in a couple generations. I could live with it and I would certainly be an interested spectator, along with the rest of the world.



Some might argue that if he was, they would have won it all. It's just as valid an argument as the other side of it.


You cannot argue things that did not happen, i.e. speculation. Knight did not coach the team; Davis did. Use of flawed logic results in an invalid argument.

Los Angeles
02-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Well, I'm not saying I know what would have happened if BK hadn't been fired, but there isn't any more certainty on the side of the argument that they wouldn't have gotten past Duke, or that they would've tanked before that.

It is all speculation, and really has no meaning. My contention that they might have done better and gotten past a Maryland team that wasn't any better than Duke that year has no meaning either.

One way or the other, neither side of the speculation is delusional. It is simply opinion.

I also don't believe that there is a larger clump of Knight detractors here than anywhere else. He is definitely a polarizing topic in Indiana; people either love him or hate him. I hear both sides of it every single day, and I probably hear more negative than positive. Most people that I know are glad that he is gone.

This is all fair, and I apologize for my aggressive language in my previous post.

heywoode
02-17-2008, 06:57 PM
This is all fair, and I apologize for my aggressive language in my previous post.

meh, no need to apologize...anybody who knows you would know that you didn't mean anything aggressive or personal by your comment; I certainly know better than to assume you were being mean. :)


You cannot argue things that did not happen, i.e. speculation. Knight did not coach the team; Davis did. Use of flawed logic results in an invalid argument.

I agree. My post #24 states the same thing. There is no question that speculation is entirely and only that, speculation. I was merely stating that the speculation that the runner-up team wouldn't have even made it to the final game under BK wasn't any more valid than my speculation that they might've won it all under BK. I don't necessarily believe that, but the statement is true nonetheless.