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Bball
06-02-2004, 11:08 PM
What a great ride this season has been! I don't know exactly when it happened but there was a point late in the season where everyone quit waiting on the tailspin that felled us last year and were just able to enjoy the ride that much more.

We all knew things would be different this season but nobody could've predicted 60+ wins and a trip to the ECF's. We were actually able to talk about making the ECFs and even the NBA Finals without making fools of ourselves to other fans. Going from 1st round washouts to the ECF's is no small feat. Getting a team to (for the most part) get on the same page when they've fallen apart in previous seasons was also no small feat.

Going into the season there were question marks. JO: How would he respond to Isiah's firing? How would he respond to owning a fat contract? Artest: Would he explode and blow up our season? Reggie: What was left in the tank and was the previous year a fluke or a preview? Al: Would he start or could he embrace coming off the bench? Pollard: Would he make us forget what's-his-name? Bender: ? ...And of course... How would the team respond to Rick Carlisle?

Walsh had already stated the team was put together badly. Nothing much was done to address that. Then again, what could anyone glean from Isiah's coaching of this team?

But then we know what has transpired. Carlisle was able to get the team to play team ball. He was able to somehow minimize our flaws. But make no mistake, we have flaws. Fortunately, we now have a much clearer view of the team and bench thanks to Carlisle's consistency.

It's hard to fathom that a team with Reggie Miller in the backcourt has problems scoring the basketball from the backcourt. But that is one answer that we have. While better than last year, Reggie is no longer the sharp shooting assassin that we can count on. He's lost a step as well. Defense really got us in trouble at Miller's position. Opposing players usually abused him. Something must be done to shore up our weakness at the 2 guard spot. While my heart says he should stay but come off the bench with MUCH reduced minutes.... my head says we need him to retire so the whole organization can move one.

Artest.... wow... what an enigma. He had games where his intensity and will to win made you love having him on the team. ... but then the ECF's got here and he went off on his own agenda. And most are still waiting on him to erupt tho he seemed to mostly have that stuff behind him. But then the team was winning too... Winning makes for happier players. Our first bump in the road and Artest was reverting to 'me-ism' (NJ). I'm of a mind to question some of Artest's missed practices and games when I look at the bigger picture. Maybe I am being too skeptical. It wouldn't surprise me to see Artest moved altho I could see why the team would give him another season.

Harrington. I believe he is maxed out. He's never going to be the player he thinks he is plus we are overloaded up front anyway. I like his energy but I question his basketball IQ. Maybe it is just me but when I see Artest taking bad shots I get the feeling it at least is him trying to win... when I see Harrington jacking up bad shots I get the feeling he is just looking for stats. I could be wrong. Still, how many players taking bad shots does one team keep around? I think Harrington is gone. Maybe packaged with Artest... maybe not. Harrington should be gone before the league figures out he isn't the player he thinks he is.

Bender. Is it really 5 years? We've watched and waited on him for 5 years? That is too long to wait on any player IMHO. I personally don't want any players getting too comfortable with their spot on a team. It's kind of hard to keep that edge when you have a player like Bender getting a generous extension and doing nothing to deserve it. Plus, the team grows without him. Decisions need to be made, and are made, with question marks surrounding him. I really hoped Carlisle would be the change of scenery he needed. While there might've been a little improvement the deer in the headlights look is still there. I think we see what we get. But I'm not sure we aren't stuck with him... and him with us. At this point a change of scenery couldn't hurt him either. Maybe to a team that can take their lumps and just let him learn on the court. I think Bender was just too raw coming into the NBA and he came to a team that had no place for an extra raw rookie. And then 3 years of Isiah Thomas didn't do him any favors either.

Foster was a pleasant surprise. I still have questions about him though. I like my centers/PF being able to score at least a little. Defense and rebounding are fine and first priority for a C but a little scoring would be nice. Particularly when your big guns are also frontline players... and moreso when your guards aren't able to really spread the floor for your big gun(s).

Pollard. Ugh.... I'm going to assume his injury curtailed his career because otherwise I don't know why the Pacers even bothered. There's not much to say here for me.

Tinsley. I was worried about Tinsley to start the season. I thought he had a bad attitude and was taking to the bench or limited minutes very well... but he proved me wrong. I was a Tinsely supporter to begin with so I am glad to see him come around. I believe he is a 'keeper'. I'm not sure AJ is the best backup for him though.

Freddy Jones.... Slam Jones. I like his swagger. His confidence grew all year long. If he can maintain his end of season shooting then he brings some things to the table we can use. Quickness. Defense. Slashing. Can he be a starter? Hmmmmm.... dunno... but I think he can PUSH a starter and make sure the starter doesn't get too comfortable.

Croshere... He is what he is. I think he is fundamentally sound and that helps. He needs to work on getting into the flow quicker. I doubt anyone would take him due to his $$$$ so he is ours. He is a team player. He could easily be a cancer due to what he's been thru but he appears to be anything but a cancer.

----

So what worries me? Joe Dumars. He is the 'anti-Walsh'. He does the things I always wished a Pacer GM would do. He is constantly moving the team forward and keeping the fanbase and media energized. He doesn't let mistakes fester. Darko may be a stroke of genius or a bust.. but I bet he won't be a question mark for 5 years. Detroit will move on if they need to. This year he could've hoped Brown's coaching and time would help them get past the Pacers but he aimed higher. He made a move that leapfrogged the Pacers and gives LA something to worry about. And IF they can't beat LA this year I don't expect he will stand pat. He will do something to make them better on paper... and Brown will put it together on the court.

Therefore, we can't stand pat. We must stay in touch and press them. And it isn't just them. Miami... the Cavs....NJ.....

I don't look for Dumars to blow up the team if they don't beat LA and create a vacuum in the conference like happened when the Pacers were allowed to dismantle in 99 and 2000.

I don't think we are in a situation where the conference will fall back to us and improving from within is possible.

But that's just me.... I'm sure I'll be told that we had the best record in the NBA and would've beaten Detroit if we weren't injured.

Bird and Walsh surprised me by dumping Isiah last year and bringing in Carlisle. Do they have another surprise for this year or will we be back to the old plan of growing from within? If they do try growing from within then I believe our window of opportunity will close rapidly. We'll be a playoff contender... but getting all the way to the finals wil be TOUGH because other teams will be improving around us and Detroit is already better (assuming they can keep it together) and they aren't exactly 'old'.

-Bball

Peck
06-02-2004, 11:20 PM
Excellent post mortem.

Funny how great minds think alike, I just posted a thread about Joe D. & now I read yours.

You are right, he is the anti-Walsh. (ducking waiting for the reply from bulletproof)

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 11:37 PM
Bball very awesome post , I pretty much agree with everything you said 100% and I think reggie needs to retire and I know he wanted a ring but if reggie stays , then freddie will just fester on the Bench again because I think we are probably gonna try to get a SG some how and some way that has some experince , then again maybe I am just dreaming .

I really agree with you about your dumars comments that's the one thing that really has bothered me since we went to the finals , we havent really made the moves to improve and I feel we have taken on way too many kiddie projects and I think JB is a risk , he could very well be the same old JB we have seen the past 5 years and if his 6 year is like that I dunno how we will ever off load this potential mistake.

I think Rick , Donnie and Larry will be watching JB like a hawk this summer and see if he does the things he needs to do and if he doesn't I think he will be gone before the season starts , we really can;t afford to waste another year on Bender , most teams would have kicked him to the curb by now.

I like Foster he does somethig for me but I would love to see him work on a nice 12-15 ft Jumper it would be kinda a memory of Rik Smits to me and I think Foster Could be Better than Smits if he works on his Game , maybe I am crazy to think that but I think if Jeff can have a legit 12-15 ft shot it makes him way more dangerous and a great tool to have.

I think we really have a much tougher road next year to get back to where we left off this year and there is no garuantee's we will have another season like we has this year with great oppritunties.

Awesome season and I hope we can make the moves we need to and I have faith with Larry and Rick and even DOnnie we can do what needs to be done to give us a legit shot at a playoff run next year.

FireTheCoach
06-02-2004, 11:39 PM
quote="Bball"

-It's hard to fathom that a team with Reggie Miller in the backcourt has problems scoring the basketball from the backcourt. But that is one answer that we have. While better than last year, Reggie is no longer the sharp shooting assassin that we can count on. He's lost a step as well. Defense really got us in trouble at Miller's position. Opposing players usually abused him. Something must be done to shore up our weakness at the 2 guard spot. While my heart says he should stay but come off the bench with MUCH reduced minutes.... my head says we need him to retire so the whole organization can move one.


hmmmm. now it seems as though the situation with our SG is becoming a desperate problem. Well.... maybe something shoulda been done like 4 years ago when the downward spiral first became evident. OOOOOOhhhhhhh, I digress

-Harrington. I believe he is maxed out. He's never going to be the player he thinks he is plus we are overloaded up front anyway. I like his energy but I question his basketball IQ. Maybe it is just me but when I see Artest taking bad shots I get the feeling it at least is him trying to win... when I see Harrington jacking up bad shots I get the feeling he is just looking for stats. I could be wrong. Still, how many players taking bad shots does one team keep around? I think Harrington is gone. Maybe packaged with Artest... maybe not. Harrington should be gone before the league figures out he isn't the player he thinks he is.

All I can say is "Remember that old Al-Watch thread"... it was as obvious then as it is now. Just as Reggie should have been dealt with years ago... Al should have been too. You really hit the nail on the head.... Al is a waaaay better player in his own mind than what he actually is on basketball court.

Hey... at least I'm consistant.

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 11:45 PM
Yeah that's a good reason to Deal him now before everyone see's he not really all that , I agree Al harrington has peaked and may get a hair better but he's pretty much not gonna grow more and his constant whine and pouting when he get's benched is getting old quick , he started in game 6 and brought us a whole 4 points and as usual Al goes MIA in the playoffs when you needed his energy the most.

Unclebuck
06-02-2004, 11:53 PM
I was thinking about this as I was driving home from work. AL Harrington is the enigma. Right now I have no idea what he is. I have no idea how good he is.

His effort was good in the playoffs but I did not think his performance was good at all and it was so inconsistant, no one had eny idea what type of game he was going to play. Not that he did not have a few good games, he did, and he almost always brings energy, but he is the third best player on this team, not Tinsley, not Foster, not Croshere, not Bender at least not yet, and not Freddie Jones. But more times than not AL did not play like the 3rd best player on the Pacers.

During the regular season AL had periods within games when he took control of the offense, and allowed J.O or Ron to get some rest, in the playoffs, AL ever did that. I never felt that AL "got it going" offensively. The Pacers really missed that from AL

I don't consider AL a bench player, a bench player is not the third best player on a team. He was third in points and minutes played during the regular season.

Pacers needed more from AL in these playoffs.


Joe Dumars has done a great job, no doubt but I am very happy with the job Donnie and now Larry has done here. What if the Pistons cannot re-sign Sheed, or if they lose Okur. I would not trade the Pacers roster for the Pistons roster.


This quote from Saucemaster stopped me in my tracks we havent really made the moves to improve Well let's see.

Did J.O just grow out of the ground. No, that was a huge move. One of the best in NBA hostory, yes in NBA history

Did Ron Artest fall out of a tree. No that was a great move. We have the best defender in the NBA, and a player who is only going to get better, a guy who lifts the whole team with his effort and intensity. He is now one of the top 15 players in the whole NBA.

We *&#@ won 61 games, we get tio the ECF game 6. BUT WE DID NOT MAKE THE MOVES TO IMPROVE.

I have not disagreed with a statement this much in years since the Indystar forum days for sure. .

WOW

bulletproof
06-02-2004, 11:54 PM
Excellent post mortem.

Funny how great minds think alike, I just posted a thread about Joe D. & now I read yours.

You are right, he is the anti-Walsh. (ducking waiting for the reply from bulletproof)

Hey, listen, Dumars hasn't won a championship yet. And I suspect the Pistons will lose to a lesser Lakers team in fewer games than the Pacers did in 2000.

Although...I was going to post a post mortem thread as well (with the exact same title, I might add) and much of it was going to be dedicated to the idea that Joe Dumars determined the Pacers fate, not the Pacers themselves. He made a bold move, we stood pat.

What more is there to say? Excellent post, Bball.

Unclebuck
06-02-2004, 11:57 PM
Say what you will, but I give Joe D very little credit for the Sheed move. I blame the Hawks and the Celts. Two horrible franchises. I know DW and Larry must have torn up their office when that trade went down.

bulletproof
06-03-2004, 12:01 AM
Say what you will, but I give Joe D very little credit for the Sheed move. I blame the Hawks and the Celts. Two horrible franchises. I know DW and Larry must have torn up their office when that trade went down.

Well there ya go, Peck and Bball. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;)

(That eye wink is a courtesy to Hicks, by the way.)

It was an indeed an awful trade for everyone except the Pistons.

bulletproof
06-03-2004, 12:03 AM
I think Harrington is gone. Maybe packaged with Artest... maybe not. Harrington should be gone before the league figures out he isn't the player he thinks he is.

Well they know now, genius. :P

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 12:08 AM
Buck I think my comments were misunderstood and I think Ron and JO were 2 great moves , but I think they could have did better and I am sure you might still disagree or go crazy , no I am not saying they could have did better than Ron and JO , I mean at other positions ..grrr maybe I should just shutup :blush:

Like I been saying since we lost last night I believe JO and Ron are Keepers and Guys you build a Championship team around and Tinsley could easiily fit in there also I beleieve .

Kstat
06-03-2004, 12:10 AM
Say what you will, but I give Joe D very little credit for the Sheed move. I blame the Hawks and the Celts. Two horrible franchises. I know DW and Larry must have torn up their office when that trade went down.

Well there ya go, Peck and Bball. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;)

(That eye wink is a courtesy to Hicks, by the way.)

It was an indeed an awful trade for everyone except the Pistons.

Not really.

Boston got a starting PG and a draft pick. All they gave up was cap space that they werent going to use anyway. For what they gave up, they got a good deal.

Atlanta was going to lose Rasheed after the season ANYWAY, and they didn't lose any cap space. And they got a mid-range draft pick and a decent player they have a shot at KEEPING out of the deal. Once again, I fail to see how Atlanta made a bad deal, and please, don't try to say that Rasheed might have stayed with them.

The only teams that got screwed by the deal were New Jersey and Indiana. Atlanta and Boston werent going to compete for a finals berth anytime soon ANYWAY.

Bball
06-03-2004, 12:16 AM
I think Harrington is gone. Maybe packaged with Artest... maybe not. Harrington should be gone before the league figures out he isn't the player he thinks he is.

Well they know now, genius. :P

You mean this place is open to the public? :o

:blush:

:idea: Ummmm I meant.... I hope Harrington's not gone before the the Pacers figure out he's twice the player he thinks he is...

Ummm Yeah... That's the ticket.
:D

-Bball

bulletproof
06-03-2004, 12:16 AM
Once again, I fail to see how Atlanta made a bad deal, and please, don't try to say that Rasheed might have stayed with them.

I'm not convinced he'll stay with Detroit either, especially after you guys lose to the Lakers in the finals.

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 12:17 AM
I think if anyone felt they had a shot a playoff run and especially a title run, they would have Taken that Sheed Deal and if you say they wouldn't your not being honest.

Unclebuck
06-03-2004, 12:17 AM
The only teams that got screwed by the deal were New Jersey and Indiana. Atlanta and Boston werent going to compete for a finals berth anytime soon ANYWAY.


Yes that is why I am bitter about that trade.

Kstyat what if the Pacers had acquired Ray Allen a few months back and all they had to give up was Pollard, Kenny Anderson and Brewer.

Hoop
06-03-2004, 12:20 AM
Once again, I fail to see how Atlanta made a bad deal, and please, don't try to say that Rasheed might have stayed with them.

:rolleyes: For God's sake they traded away 2 VERY good players for a player they knew they couldn't resign and would have to give away. If that ain't a bad bad bad deal what the ***** is?

Kstat
06-03-2004, 12:22 AM
The only teams that got screwed by the deal were New Jersey and Indiana. Atlanta and Boston werent going to compete for a finals berth anytime soon ANYWAY.


Yes that is why I am bitter about that trade.

Kstyat what if the Pacers had acquired Ray Allen a few months back and all they had to give up was Pollard, Kenny Anderson and Brewer.

I'd probably say "good, as least Rip Hamilton will have a CHALLENGE this time around...." :cool:

Honestly, I've never been UPSET by another team's transaction. I concern myself with how MY team is doing. Joe Dumars has no control over what other NBA GMs do. If the Pacers make a great move, its up to Joe D. to keep the pace.

Kstat
06-03-2004, 12:24 AM
Once again, I fail to see how Atlanta made a bad deal, and please, don't try to say that Rasheed might have stayed with them.

:rolleyes: For God's sake they traded away 2 VERY good players for a player they knew they couldn't resign and would have to give away. If that ain't a bad bad bad deal what the ***** is?

Um ok, so blame Atlanta for trading Reef and Ratliff for cap space. That has nothing to do with Detroit's deal, which was actually good considering their situation.

TheSauceMaster
06-03-2004, 12:37 AM
amazing how some people can get so miffed or upset over a trade another team made , If this trade would have been offered to the Pacers and Larry , Donnie and Rick thought it would help us ..I bet no one would be *****ing about the Trade .

Unclebuck
06-03-2004, 12:39 AM
amazing how some people can get so miffed or upset over a trade another team made , If this trade would have been offered to the Pacers and Larry , Donnie and Rick thought it would help us ..I bet no one would be *****ing about the Trade .


Of course not, I am bitter about the trade because it hurt the Pacers chances.

Unclebuck
06-03-2004, 12:39 AM
amazing how some people can get so miffed or upset over a trade another team made , If this trade would have been offered to the Pacers and Larry , Donnie and Rick thought it would help us ..I bet no one would be *****ing about the Trade .


Of course not, I am bitter about the trade because it hurt the Pacers chances.

Hicks
06-03-2004, 12:53 AM
amazing how some people can get so miffed or upset over a trade another team made , If this trade would have been offered to the Pacers and Larry , Donnie and Rick thought it would help us ..I bet no one would be *****ing about the Trade .

I don't think that's the point, Sauce. It's that two franchises made seemingly stupid moves to let our biggest rival get better. THAT is why people are mad: They are mad because our biggest rival made a major improvement without giving anything significantly big up for it, which teams usually have to do to get what they want.

I don't see anyone saying it's Joe Dumars' "fault". J.D. made a hell of a move, kudos to him. I'm mad at the situation; that it happened at all.

Hoop
06-03-2004, 01:35 AM
I don't see anyone saying it's Joe Dumars' "fault". J.D. made a hell of a move, kudos to him. I'm mad at the situation; that it happened at all.

That's about how I feel about it also.

I can't blame Detroit at all, they did not have to make a brilliant move they were just at the right place at the right time. It was caused by Atlanta having complete morons running the show.

unstandable
06-03-2004, 09:25 AM
Dumars was trying to trade for Rasheed all season, he had discussions with Portland as early as during training camp. And he had accumulated expiring contracts (which aren't easy to get) and an extra first round pick through a series of good trades. That enabled him to make the eventual deal with Atlanta. So I don't think you can say he just lucked into it.

sixthman
06-03-2004, 11:00 AM
Dumars was trying to trade for Rasheed all season, he had discussions with Portland as early as during training camp. And he had accumulated expiring contracts (which aren't easy to get) and an extra first round pick through a series of good trades. That enabled him to make the eventual deal with Atlanta. So I don't think you can say he just lucked into it.

Good post unstandable.

Dumars has handled the Pistons money wisely, accumulated expiring contracts, and stayed under the cap to take full advantage of opportunities. Now with the upcoming signing of Rasheed, he joins the rest of us in cap country hell.