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View Full Version : An interesting question...would you rather keep Freddie or Bender?



Suaveness
06-02-2004, 11:51 AM
I know it is a little early to talk about something like this, but I thought it was a very valid question. Mainly because I believe people think Bender is god and Fred is a very good role player but not starting material.

Here is my stand on this:

I think it is funny how people here would rather keep Bender than Fred. If you think so, tell me why, because as someone mentioned (Peck I believe), EVERY YEAR we hear about Bender CAN be great this, Bender CAN be great that. Has he EVER consistantly shown that he can do so?

No.

Fred on the other hand has played well all year, and he has improved with his shot and defense tremendously. And by the look of it, he can improve a lot more.

Bender just looks confused everytime he is out there, and his intelligence on the knowhow of the game is horrendous. And people continue to say after 5 years that we will be great. How much longer should we wait for that?

Anyway, fire away.

FireTheCoach
06-02-2004, 11:56 AM
If I had to choose between the two considering what the Pacers most glaring needs are at this point in time....

Obviously Fred Jones is the keeper and Bender is trade filler.

LAPacer
06-02-2004, 11:59 AM
Depends on who we get in return. I like both players, but I am still blinded by bender. Maybe I have been brainwashed.

Ultimate Frisbee
06-02-2004, 12:02 PM
Jones... since we could actually get something for Bender!

Joenes has also already shown more proficiency playing in the NBA than Bender has (though he has plenty of excuses)

ABADays
06-02-2004, 12:05 PM
Jones hands down!

Slick Pinkham
06-02-2004, 12:25 PM
Keep them both.

But if I had to keep only one, I'd favor the guy 8 inches taller and 2 years younger. Yes, that is not a typo. Jonathan is two years younger than Fred.

It is a bit easier to finding 6'2" guards who can play really well, even if you insist on amazing athleticism, than 7'0" guys who can play 3 or 4 positions.

Snickers
06-02-2004, 12:28 PM
I love both these guys, but Freddie has shown more improvement in 2 years than Bendy has in 5. Then again, they're about the same age.

If Bender were to be traded to a garbage team and play lots of minutes, he'd become a star within a year. But it's going to take longer on our team, and right now, Freddie is a more valuable player.

indygeezer
06-02-2004, 12:32 PM
Keep Bender trade Jones. But there's a catch (there always is) Ya gotta PLAY Bender. Give him the 6th man role and let him earn his lumps. No wait...those lumps would put him back on the IL wouldn't they!

Hicks
06-02-2004, 12:37 PM
If I had to choose between the two considering what the Pacers most glaring needs are at this point in time....

Obviously Fred Jones is the keeper and Bender is trade filler.

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 12:43 PM
If I had to choose between the two considering what the Pacers most glaring needs are at this point in time....

Obviously Fred Jones is the keeper and Bender is trade filler.

ditto

Unclebuck
06-02-2004, 12:52 PM
There are many ways to look at this question.

1) The first and most important question is who has more star potential? Bender does. Edge to Bender

2) What positions do they play. Jones is a shooting guard, and maybe at some timne down the road could play the point. Pacers need help at those positions. Bender plays SF and Pf, Pacers have plenty of depth there. Edge to Jones

3) Who has more trade value? I think both are very undervalued, and we know Dw is a big believer that it is a huge mistake to trade a guy to early in their career. Edge: tie

Those are three questions I ask myself when evaluating who should be traded. Overall I don't want either of them. Too soon, we don't know what we have, the league does not know either, so they are undervalued.

I hate to duck the question, but I would rather trade AL, we know what he is, the league knows what he is, and his trade value is higher than Bender or Freddie

Harddrive7
06-02-2004, 01:00 PM
There are many ways to look at this question.

1) The first and most important question is who has more star potential? Bender does. Edge to Bender

2) What positions do they play. Jones is a shooting guard, and maybe at some timne down the road could play the point. Pacers need help at those positions. Bender plays SF and Pf, Pacers have plenty of depth there. Edge to Jones

3) Who has more trade value? I think both are very undervalued, and we know Dw is a big believer that it is a huge mistake to trade a guy to early in their career. Edge: tie

Those are three questions I ask myself when evaluating who should be traded. Overall I don't want either of them. Too soon, we don't know what we have, the league does not know either, so they are undervalued.

I hate to duck the question, but I would rather trade AL, we know what he is, the league knows what he is, and his trade value is higher than Bender or Freddie


So put it this way. what could we get for a package of Al and Bender/Jones? An allstar calliber player? Or a very good role player?

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 01:00 PM
There are many ways to look at this question.

1) The first and most important question is who has more star potential? Bender does. Edge to Bender

2) What positions do they play. Jones is a shooting guard, and maybe at some timne down the road could play the point. Pacers need help at those positions. Bender plays SF and Pf, Pacers have plenty of depth there. Edge to Jones

3) Who has more trade value? I think both are very undervalued, and we know Dw is a big believer that it is a huge mistake to trade a guy to early in their career. Edge: tie

Those are three questions I ask myself when evaluating who should be traded. Overall I don't want either of them. Too soon, we don't know what we have, the league does not know either, so they are undervalued.

I hate to duck the question, but I would rather trade AL, we know what he is, the league knows what he is, and his trade value is higher than Bender or Freddie

UB I agree with your comments , the last comment I agree with Trade AL NOW :D

LAPacer
06-02-2004, 01:05 PM
If the choice was, Bender, Jones, or Harrington. I choose to trade Harrinton as well.

Bball
06-02-2004, 01:06 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 01:06 PM
If the choice was, Bender, Jones, or Harrington. I choose to trade Harrinton as well.

What if you had to give up all 3 for a Star SG ? Since AL is the only real value and Bender and Fred are undervalued ?

LAPacer
06-02-2004, 01:07 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

When he gets more than 25/mins a night consistently for a month.

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 01:08 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

I wonder the same also , I really wonder if bender is worth the risk of another year of IL and disappointment.

Snickers
06-02-2004, 01:09 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

When he gets more than 25/mins a night consistently for a month.

.... on two good legs.

In other words, probably never. :neutral:

RWB
06-02-2004, 01:12 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

When he gets more than 25/mins a night consistently for a month.

Ditto....Forget years, realistically how many games has Jon B played?

Unclebuck
06-02-2004, 01:12 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball


One healthy season at this point, that is all we need. patience is a vitue

indygeezer
06-02-2004, 01:12 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball


I don't know, how many years did JO get before he started producing?

Bball
06-02-2004, 01:13 PM
How many years in the league does Bender need to play before we can say "What you see is what you get"?

-Bball

When he gets more than 25/mins a night consistently for a month.

.... on two good legs.

In other words, probably never. :neutral:

Maybe he should drink Red Bull... I hear it'll give you wings....

:D

-Bball

Unclebuck
06-02-2004, 01:14 PM
So put it this way. what could we get for a package of Al and Bender/Jones? An allstar calliber player? Or a very good role player?


I don't know, if you read some reports maybe McGrady. I think it will take all three to get McGrady. And that might not do it either. Magic will want Artest or J.O to start the discussions

Bball
06-02-2004, 01:17 PM
He would still be in college if he hadn't come out early.

He probably would've had to redshirt at least a year with an injury :P

-Bball

Suaveness
06-02-2004, 01:29 PM
See, I keep hearing the word "potential". And I always keep hearing that word when associated with Bender. When will that potential ever come out? If ever?

Yes, the guy has skills. But he lacks fundamentals. And honestly, I was hoping to see improvements every year. And I really haven't seen anything major to make me excited.

But Fred fits this team's needs, and there has been obvious improvement with his game when compared to the beginning of the year.

Bball
06-02-2004, 02:15 PM
See, I keep hearing the word "potential". And I always keep hearing that word when associated with Bender. When will that potential ever come out? If ever?



"'Potential' means they haven't done it yet"

"'Potential' gets coaches fired"

Waiting a year or two is one thing but I have to think waiting much more than that starts creating problems because the team grows without that player... or finds itself NEEDING him and he isn't ready... or putting other players on IR or left off the playoff roster that could've contributed... or creates bickering wondering why 'X' is being coddled..... or making trades that maybe wouldn't be made or tweaking the team in questionable ways.... And let's not forget salary and cap issues...

-Bball

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 02:17 PM
Bender must be loving it , he makes a ransom for so little output , how many of you would like to get paid 5,680,000 this last year for potential and lots bench rest ;)

ChicagoJ
06-02-2004, 02:41 PM
We're talking about a guy that's probably always going to be a bench player because he's too small and can't shoot (Jones) and a guy that's going to remain a bench player until he gets physically strong enough to survive an entire season (Bender). So in the grand scheme of things, who cares? These are your seventh and eighth men, so they're nothing more than accessories.

Snickers
06-02-2004, 02:58 PM
I think Freddie's shooting has improved dramatically this season. In fact, I think if he improves as much next season as he did this, he could be right there with Al for our 6th man.

Bender is still the "wild card." You hesitate to give up on him, because we've all seen what happened when teams bail on young unproven players who spend a lot of time getting scrap minutes behind all-stars.

But on the other hand, our window of opportunity just opened, so the next few years are huge. Freddie will contribute, Bendy might. I like Freddie a lot.

I'm still willing to give Bendy another chance. He looked pretty good this year when he wasn't injured. Besides, bailing on him isn't gonna help us much. What could we get for him anyway?

DisplacedKnick
06-02-2004, 03:11 PM
Gotta laugh at all the Bender commentary.

At least there's an answer to the seemingly eternal, "X season would be his rookie year if he'd stayed in college four years" (said posters conveniently forgetting that very few top college players stay 4 years any more).

We can now say that this year would have been his rookie season.

His rookie rankings:

PPG - 12th
RPG - Dunno - they (NBA.com) go to 20th and he isn't that high. He ranks below such board monsters as TJ Ford
Assists/Game - Same problem
Steals/Game - Same problem
Blocks/Game - 8th

Unfortunately they don't list minutes played.

Anyway, it looks like, if he'd played a full season, JB might have been in consideration for 3rd team all-rookie as a fifth-year rookie.

But of course, since pretty much every player above him could have been given the "X season would be his rookie season if he'd stayed in college four years" (LeBron, 'Melo, Bosh, Kaman) he probably would have made first team and been considered for ROY behind Hinrich and Josh Howard. Though of course we'd have players like Carlos Boozer, Drew Gooden, Jason Richardson, Joe Johnson, Gilbert Arenas, Sam Dalembert and Darius Miles in the mix who "would have been a rookie if he'd stayed four years in college". Don't think I want to tackle that one.

In fact, I think Boozer might be my "If he'd stayed in college four years" rookie of the year selection this season.

But always remember - if Jon Bender had stayed in college four years next year would only be his second in the league!

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 03:14 PM
Dunno where you got those numbers but the numbers i am looking at aren't close to yours ..LOL Bender has Never Avg 12 ppg his whole career

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
99-00 IND 24 1 5.4 .329 .167 .667 .20 .70 .90 .1 .04 .21 .29 .80 2.7
00-01 IND 59 7 9.7 .355 .268 .735 .20 1.00 1.30 .5 .12 .47 .71 1.20 3.3
01-02 IND 78 17 21.1 .430 .360 .773 .80 2.30 3.10 .8 .24 .63 1.23 1.90 7.4
02-03 IND 46 2 17.8 .441 .358 .714 .90 2.00 2.90 .9 .17 1.22 .91 1.90 6.6
03-04 IND 21 0 12.9 .472 .409 .830 .40 1.50 1.90 .4 .24 .52 1.57 1.10 7.0
Career 228 27 15.1 .417 .340 .755 .60 1.70 2.20 .6 .18 .65 .96 1.50 5.7
Playoff 34 0 8.9 .412 .361 .679 .40 .90 1.20 .3 .15 .56 .50 .90 3.3


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jonathan_bender/printable_player_files.html

DisplacedKnick
06-02-2004, 03:21 PM
Dunno where you got those numbers but the numbers i am looking at aren't close to yours ..LOL

Talking to me? Go to NBA.com, look at stats for rookie leaders and check against Bender's mythical, awe-inspiring 7 points, 2 rebounds and .5 blocks/game.

BTW - you will, I'm sure, be happy to know that Bender's 1.57 TO's per game would rank him 12th among rookies and that he was able to accomplish this in under 13 minutes/game! BTW - I think the stats computer would bust over his 1:6 assist:TO ratio.

DisplacedKnick
06-02-2004, 03:22 PM
Dunno where you got those numbers but the numbers i am looking at aren't close to yours ..LOL Bender has Never Avg 12 ppg his whole career

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
99-00 IND 24 1 5.4 .329 .167 .667 .20 .70 .90 .1 .04 .21 .29 .80 2.7
00-01 IND 59 7 9.7 .355 .268 .735 .20 1.00 1.30 .5 .12 .47 .71 1.20 3.3
01-02 IND 78 17 21.1 .430 .360 .773 .80 2.30 3.10 .8 .24 .63 1.23 1.90 7.4
02-03 IND 46 2 17.8 .441 .358 .714 .90 2.00 2.90 .9 .17 1.22 .91 1.90 6.6
03-04 IND 21 0 12.9 .472 .409 .830 .40 1.50 1.90 .4 .24 .52 1.57 1.10 7.0
Career 228 27 15.1 .417 .340 .755 .60 1.70 2.20 .6 .18 .65 .96 1.50 5.7
Playoff 34 0 8.9 .412 .361 .679 .40 .90 1.20 .3 .15 .56 .50 .90 3.3


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jonathan_bender/printable_player_files.html

Never said he did.

Dukins
06-02-2004, 03:23 PM
Freddie hands down. I like his defense, his ability to get his own shot, and he has the experience. Oh one more he hasnt shown that he is injury prone. OTOH Bender barely gets tapped going to the hole and loses the ball. He has to bulk up some. He just wint cut being a shooting guard. Imagine Bender being our shooting guard he would get circles ran around him. In the long run Bender will be the lesser of the two unless he shows some determination to hit to the weightroom.

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 03:24 PM
I must be losing my mind , god :laugh:

waterjater
06-02-2004, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't trade either player.

Jones really came on toward the end of the season and upped the ante in the playoffs. His play got better in the playoffs.

Other than several miscues against the Pistons defense, WHICH EVERY PACER HAD PROBLEMS WITH, Bender looked good in the post season. His play against Boston, notwithstanding Boston's ineptitude, was exciting and seemed effortless. When he realizes how good he is, watch out. I see this just like when O'neal came here. We need to give him the minutes to see if he can suceed next year!! And Bender played better int he playoffs other than the miscues against Detroit.

Both players raised their play late in the season and in the playoffs. To me that is a great sign of things to come!

Al Harrington is the person who needs to be traded like others have mentioned. His play has always go down in the playoffs and he wasn't even strong enough to shove Tashawn Princes hand through the rim to ensure the dunk went in. He's a proven sixth man and would be an asset in a trade (throw in a good shooting James Jones and others with him).

Water

Roy Munson
06-02-2004, 06:56 PM
In the right situation I think both are potential NBA stars.

At this time, Freddie is more mature and mentally strong. I think Bender's limitations are mostly mental. I wonder how he gets along with Artest, or if he is intimidated by Ron. It appears to me that some of the players are intimidated by him.

TheSauceMaster
06-02-2004, 11:09 PM
It just depends on how bad you want a ring I guess , if reggie stays as a backup 1 more year ..we have 1 year and alot of hard work to go through to get back to the ECF and to the FInals.

we got lucky this year because if those injuries to Tins and JO happen somehwere early to middle season we would have never made it as far as we did. while they did happen in the playoffs most of our guys were to young to play at such a high level and alot of them didn't get much experince IMHO.

Oneal for Davis I would have done it , we needed to move on for the future , just like we should have been planing 2 years ago for reggies departure and having a solid backup ready to start.

Fred Jones isn't ready to start folks , fred needs another year , but it's gonna be hard to get freddie mins if reggie stays and we aquire a Starting SG .

Suaveness
06-03-2004, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't trade either player.

Jones really came on toward the end of the season and upped the ante in the playoffs. His play got better in the playoffs.

Other than several miscues against the Pistons defense, WHICH EVERY PACER HAD PROBLEMS WITH, Bender looked good in the post season. His play against Boston, notwithstanding Boston's ineptitude, was exciting and seemed effortless. When he realizes how good he is, watch out. I see this just like when O'neal came here. We need to give him the minutes to see if he can suceed next year!! And Bender played better int he playoffs other than the miscues against Detroit.

Both players raised their play late in the season and in the playoffs. To me that is a great sign of things to come!

Al Harrington is the person who needs to be traded like others have mentioned. His play has always go down in the playoffs and he wasn't even strong enough to shove Tashawn Princes hand through the rim to ensure the dunk went in. He's a proven sixth man and would be an asset in a trade (throw in a good shooting James Jones and others with him).

Water

It is hard NOT to play well against that crappy Boston team. Truly playing abilities are shown when put to the test against opponents better than you. And Fred excelled. Bender and Al did not.

MSA2CF
06-03-2004, 12:09 PM
It's hard to tell, with neither getting much PT this season, but if I had to make the decision this second, I'd pick Bender to keep.

ABADays
06-03-2004, 01:00 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 01:04 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2004, 01:12 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

No, it isn't. It might have been a couple of years ago but it isn't now.

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 01:15 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

No, it isn't. It might have been a couple of years ago but it isn't now.

Yeah, he's been around for 5 years. But he still hasn't been healthy for one year. I think that is why they Pacers like him so much.. so much that they keep sigining him. It has to be potential. It definitely isn't prodution.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2004, 01:18 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

No, it isn't. It might have been a couple of years ago but it isn't now.

Yeah, he's been around for 5 years. But he still hasn't been healthy for one year. I think that is why they Pacers like him so much.. so much that they keep sigining him. It has to be potential. It definitely isn't prodution.

His lack of health is one reason teams aren't interested. If he can't stay healthy playing 15 mpg, why would teams think he will playing 30?

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 01:23 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

No, it isn't. It might have been a couple of years ago but it isn't now.

Yeah, he's been around for 5 years. But he still hasn't been healthy for one year. I think that is why they Pacers like him so much.. so much that they keep sigining him. It has to be potential. It definitely isn't prodution.

His lack of health is one reason teams aren't interested. If he can't stay healthy playing 15 mpg, why would teams think he will playing 30?

Maybe you're right. Like I said earlier, for some strange reason... I am brainwashed by Bender.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2004, 01:49 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any team would give up anything for Bender. His salary is too high for his production.

People would trade for his potential, not his production. That is the intriguing and marketable thing about Bender.

No, it isn't. It might have been a couple of years ago but it isn't now.

Yeah, he's been around for 5 years. But he still hasn't been healthy for one year. I think that is why they Pacers like him so much.. so much that they keep sigining him. It has to be potential. It definitely isn't prodution.

His lack of health is one reason teams aren't interested. If he can't stay healthy playing 15 mpg, why would teams think he will playing 30?

Maybe you're right. Like I said earlier, for some strange reason... I am brainwashed by Bender.

When teams talk Pacers (or at least the rumors involving teams wanting a Pacer) the players that seem to always be swirling around are Artest first and Al Harrington second. Bender's become an afterthought the last couple of years.

Of course if he comes out next Nov and opens the season as a 15 and 8 guy that would change in a hurry. Right now he's in the bordeline bust category along with Kwame, Chandler, etc.

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 02:00 PM
Of course if he comes out next Nov and opens the season as a 15 and 8 guy that would change in a hurry. Right now he's in the bordeline bust category along with Kwame, Chandler, etc.

Bender is not yet a bust. :disappointed: maybe is i write it a few more times it will be true. Bender is not yet a bust. Bender is not yet a bust.

Slick Pinkham
06-03-2004, 02:01 PM
Bender is captivating because of the occasional amazing plays that almost make you forget the more frequent bonehead plays. If he could just not turn the ball over, master those 8-12 foot shots in the paint where he just truly uses his length to get a virtually uncontestable shot, well...

:drool:

Personally I thought it was encouraging to see him do a credible job defending players as different as Paul Pierce, Rip Hamilton, Lamar Odom, and Ben Wallace.

Larry Bird needs to call up Doc Rivers and see if he truly feels Jonathan Bender is "a longer Tracy McGrady". :shakehead: :omg: :crazy:

Though looking at the Celtics roster and the "me-first" attitudes of Pierce and Ricky Davis, they don't have much of anything to offer other than multiple future draft picks that might be in the lottery. I mean, do you want to give up ANYTHING for a Chris Mihm?

LAPacer
06-03-2004, 02:05 PM
Yeah, Doc sounded like he believed in Bender. The only people useful for the Pacers on the Celts are Blount and Atkins.

Suaveness
06-03-2004, 04:54 PM
Yeah, Doc sounded like he believed in Bender. The only people useful for the Pacers on the Celts are Blount and Atkins.

Well Doc sounded like an idiot in his commentary, so it's all for naught.