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View Full Version : Post-Game 45: The Streak Finally Ends (for the Heat)



LG33
01-26-2008, 06:55 PM
15 straight teams beat the Miami Heat. We didn't. Go Pacers!

Dunleavy wanted to play for a while.
Rush couldn't find the basket for a while.
David Harrison couldn't find the court.
KG played a great game, though the BLOUNT jersey was a bit confusing.
The Heat had more points, assists, blocks, rebounds, and steals than us, and they shot better from the field, BUT we had more turnovers and personal fouls.


We made it interesting towards the end there, but that was just to **** off as many Pacer fans as possible.

Jim O'Brien, coach of the ****ing year folks.

Oneal07
01-26-2008, 06:56 PM
Rush Missed a WIDE OPEN 3. and I thought we have another time out left

LG33
01-26-2008, 06:58 PM
The worst part about this game is that we can't even blame Violet Palmer.

grace
01-26-2008, 06:59 PM
The worst thing about losing to the Heat: Shade was right. :sad:

31andonly
01-26-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm wondering why I always keep watching these stupid Pacers-games

JayRedd
01-26-2008, 07:00 PM
Rush Missed a WIDE OPEN 3. and I thought we have another time out left

Yeah...That was a great look and/or play.

I'm not mad about that. He hits that 7 times out of 10.

We lost the game at the end of the 3rd when Dwyane treated us like Marcellus Wallace in the basement for about 4 minutes and the Heat went ahead and got all that confidence going. And, frankly, can't say there's anything better we could have done about that. He just entered a zone and took over to hit some sick shots for a while. No one in the world can stop a guy that penetrates like that, spins into the lane tossing up bank shots and is also hitting fading threes in the corner.

Cobol Sam
01-26-2008, 07:00 PM
sigh.

Hicks
01-26-2008, 07:02 PM
Everything is Jim O'Brien's fault! :arrgh:

LG33
01-26-2008, 07:04 PM
Everything is Jim O'Brien's fault! :arrgh:

Jim O'Brien is a hero! :bowdown:

tora tora
01-26-2008, 07:04 PM
Nah it's not the coach, we still sucked with Carlisle. The roster needs changes and it's a damn shame that management won't wake up and do something.

LG33
01-26-2008, 07:05 PM
Well, at least the guys can go back home and visit their favorite bar and grill.

http://indianabeer.com/Pics/Br-RockBottomExterior.jpg

Putnam
01-26-2008, 07:21 PM
:iagree:


Really sad loss. Dunleavy played so well.


I dunno how serious the thing is about O'Brien coaching defense and the players running the offense. But something has to change at that end. They just took too many 3s.

grace
01-26-2008, 07:23 PM
I'm wondering why I always keep watching these stupid Pacers-games

I had the radio on briefly in the 1st quarter when Chris and Quin were talking about how badly the Pacers were shooting and how many turn overs the Heat had. I couldn't help but laugh to think how these two franchises have fallen on hard times. While I'm laughing I say to myself "This isn't funny." Then I said "It's hysterical." And before anyone throws a brick at me of course I meant you have to laugh or you'll cry.

Anthem
01-26-2008, 07:25 PM
We had a 20 left... should have used it.

When Rush missed that three (good look, can't blame him) I knew it was over.

Will Galen
01-26-2008, 07:26 PM
Neat! I go to Pacers.com to see when the game starts and it's over! (*&%$%^&&*

LG33
01-26-2008, 07:27 PM
Neat! I go to Pacers.com to see when the game starts and it's over! (*&%$%^&&*)

You should be happy - you've saved yourself a lot of anguish.

ViperVisor
01-26-2008, 07:29 PM
OWENS OWENS OWENS!

HE MISSED IT! HE MISSED IT! HE MISSED IT!

LG33
01-26-2008, 07:31 PM
I was at Conseco the other day and I found out where the Pacers front office keeps their playoff hopes...

http://64.226.23.133/woodycarr/scarefx/images/coffin2.jpg

After Murphy and O'Neal's contracts, we really couldn't afford anything nicer...

LG33
01-26-2008, 07:38 PM
"A bad omen, for certain: Miami entered 2-19 when trailing at halftime, with the biggest deficit successfully overcome by the Heat at a game's midpoint this year being a six-point hole against lowly Minnesota on Dec. 17."

Mourning
01-26-2008, 07:50 PM
1) Nice avi ViporVisor.

2) I care about the Pacers, but I don't really care that they lost this game. That's disturbing to me,, but I feel forced to feel that way, because if we don't UTTERLY suck management will go on for like FOREVER with trying to patch something that can't be patched.

Kegboy
01-26-2008, 07:54 PM
You know, I was consoling myself that we've played 7 more games on the road, which accounts for us being 7 games under .500. Then I looked at our next 7 home games:

Detroit
Houston
Orlando
San Antonio
Portland
Boston
Cleveland

Joy.

pwee31
01-26-2008, 08:17 PM
Don't mind the Rush shot... it was a good look, but I'd still like to see Dunleavy take those shots. He just seems to hit big shots... be it to keep us in the game, or stop a drought.

His pass at the end was just a bad decision.

I also felt Deiner should have been in over Owens at the end, Owens played pretty, kinda took some I'm DWade shots at the end with just pulling up and shooting jumpers.

Down 2... on the road... you go for the win, and I would've had Diener on the floor over Owens.

Doesn't matter though. oddly enough we're still in the playoff hunt. Probably won't do much there unless there's some changes made somewhere... hell.. anywhere.

Sadly our best trading pieces seem to be our ONLY trading pieces. And I don't want to trade Danny. Not wanting to trade Rush seeing what he's shown of late and what we're paying him. And I've felt Dunleavy has been our best player this year. Still overpaid, but he's turned into my favorite Pacer and seems to be a good fit in our scheme of things.

We need a defensive minded/pass first PG with a little size, and a defensive minded big man that can get up and down the floor.

We find those two pieces anywhere and I feel this team can turn things around...... THIS SEASON

ajbry
01-26-2008, 08:19 PM
I thought the loss was sealed with about 6 minutes remaining, IIRC, when Diener turned it over twice in as many possessions, extending the Miami lead and killing any semblance of an offensive attack.

Infinite MAN_force
01-26-2008, 08:35 PM
You know, I was consoling myself that we've played 7 more games on the road, which accounts for us being 7 games under .500. Then I looked at our next 7 home games:

Detroit
Houston
Orlando
San Antonio
Portland
Boston
Cleveland

Joy.

Me might win one of those... if we are lucky.

I'm sorry but I am really cheering for a tank now. We still have time to take a shot at a lottery pick if we really buckle down and suck. I'm just hoping management doesn't make a trade to upgrade us enough to make us mediocre and out of the lottery. I say trade Tinsley for an expiring and sit JO for the year.

LG33
01-26-2008, 08:42 PM
I thought the loss was sealed with about 6 minutes remaining, IIRC, when Diener turned it over twice in as many possessions, extending the Miami lead and killing any semblance of an offensive attack.

Or when Andre Owen's two straight turnovers early in the fourth gave Miami it's largest lead and a lot of momentum. Both our pg's had relatively few turnovers, but when they did throw it away it was all in a brief stint.

LG33
01-26-2008, 08:47 PM
Tank or not, I'm just worried that this team is wasting a year in mediocrity.

Hicks
01-26-2008, 08:53 PM
Jim O'Brien is a hero! :bowdown:

:onozomg:

Kofi
01-26-2008, 09:01 PM
You all hate this losing now, but when June gets here, you'll be more excited than you've been since pre-Malice at the Palace.

ajbry
01-26-2008, 09:04 PM
You all hate this losing now, but when June gets here, you'll be more excited than you've been since pre-Malice at the Palace.

I don't know about that. 2004's squad was going to win a ring. This offseason will (hopefully) be the start of a painful rebuilding process that will last at the very least a few years and there's no guarantee it will be a success.

pwee31
01-26-2008, 09:07 PM
I think fans should start chanting at games what they want management to do. Kinda like the Knicks did with "Fire Isiah" chants. Dolan may not listen, but I think Bird would.

So if you're at the game and you want the team to tank... get those around you to start a tank chant.

I'm never for tanking myself, just don't have it in my to pull for my team to lose over an outcome we can't control. Tanking sure worked for the Bucks, Griz and Celtics... of course the Celtics had a back-up plan, but you shoudl never want your teams to lose games all so they can get in position to get a player who may not live up to the hype. Or in the position where you don't get a pick in the range you were hoping for.

I personally would chant something like "trade tinsley" or "trade for help".

Though I'm hoping to get a seat right near Bird so I can whisper in the air "if you trade him... they will come"

Kofi
01-26-2008, 09:12 PM
I don't know about that. 2004's squad was going to win a ring. This offseason will (hopefully) be the start of a painful rebuilding process that will last at the very least a few years and there's no guarantee it will be a success.

That's what I'm saying. Pre-Malice at the Palace. Ever since 11/19/04 we've had very little to be excited over.

LG33
01-26-2008, 09:13 PM
:onozomg:
Touché, sir.

:cheering::champions:cheering: (That's JO'B with the Red Auerbach Trophy)
Gimme a J! Gimme an O! Gimme a B! Now take away his JOB.

Hicks
01-26-2008, 09:14 PM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Jim O'Brien, and I think that's unfair to him. Jim doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Jim has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.

Kofi
01-26-2008, 09:15 PM
By the way, with our loss today and the Knicks win yesterday, the gap between the 8th seed (and the right to be swept by Boston by 20+ points a game) and a top-5 pick is a whopping 3.5 games.

bulldog
01-26-2008, 09:16 PM
I've noticed I've started posting less here and more on the News & Politics forum about global warming, gun violence, etc.

That stuff is just less depressing than the Pacers.

Kofi
01-26-2008, 09:18 PM
I've noticed I've started posting less here and more on the News & Politics forum about global warming, gun violence, etc.

That stuff is just less depressing than the Pacers.

:laugh:

owl
01-26-2008, 09:39 PM
By the way, with our loss today and the Knicks win yesterday, the gap between the 8th seed (and the right to be swept by Boston by 20+ points a game) and a top-5 pick is a whopping 3.5 games.


As of todays loss the Pacers have the 8th seed and the 12th worse record in the league and the 15th pick in the draft.

LG33
01-26-2008, 09:44 PM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Jim O'Brien, and I think that's unfair to him. Jim doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Jim has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.

Wow. You must not even read my posts (and I don't blame you for that), because I clearly blame Troy Murphy unfairly just as much, if not more, for a lot of **** too.

Hicks
01-26-2008, 09:58 PM
Wow. You must not even read my posts (and I don't blame you for that), because I clearly blame Troy Murphy unfairly just as much, if not more, for a lot of **** too.

I noticed. Care to explain why the two of them together are more dangerous to America than al Qaeda?

LG33
01-26-2008, 10:43 PM
I noticed. Care to explain why the two of them together are more dangerous to America than al Qaeda?

Because they're already here!

Hicks
01-26-2008, 10:51 PM
Because they're already here!

:laugh:

Seriously though, what do you feel, specifically, Jim O'Brien is doing or not doing to hurt the Pacers?

Mourning
01-26-2008, 11:30 PM
He's not playing the younger guys enough and giving his comments it seems he's letting the offense run too freely. Where are the picks? Why not settle down a little on those 3's? And again why give Ike a DNP and Shawne just 6 minutes? We are going to suck this year, so why not give some of the younger guys a really good look and some time to actually make errors now, so we know exactly what we have instead of still more-or-less guessing at the end of the season, because we hardly played them at all?`

And I liked and still like the JO'B hiring, but those to me are the things he should definitely be looking into.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Doddage
01-26-2008, 11:39 PM
It is true that JOB has demonstrated his flaws throughout the season, but still I'm glad we hired him. He seems to be a perfect fit with the state and team.

Kofi
01-27-2008, 12:04 AM
He's not playing the younger guys enough and giving his comments it seems he's letting the offense run too freely. Where are the picks? Why not settle down a little on those 3's? And again why give Ike a DNP and Shawne just 6 minutes? We are going to suck this year, so why not give some of the younger guys a really good look and some time to actually make errors now, so we know exactly what we have instead of still more-or-less guessing at the end of the season, because we hardly played them at all?`

And I liked and still like the JO'B hiring, but those to me are the things he should definitely be looking into.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

I can understand him not playing the young guys if he honestly believes the vets give us a better chance of winning. Coaches can't afford to play for the future, their job is on the line every game. Still, I'd love to see Ike get 20 mpg for a lengthy stretch of games just to see if he's worth investing anything into after this season. Who knows, maybe the Pacers secretly know he's an incredible Elton Brand clone, and are purposely not playing him in order to sign him to a cheap, long-term contract in the offseason, then next year, when he's ours for the next 6 years, we unleash him on the rest of the NBA, he wins MVP award, and leads us to the Championship.

Yep, things have gotten so bad I've decided to live in my own fantasy world rather than face the pain that is reality. :p

LG33
01-27-2008, 12:06 AM
I agree with what Mourning said for the most part. I just rarely agree with his in-game decision-making. And I dislike that he doesn't keep his word - people like Graham that seem to earn minutes can't get off the pine during difficult stretches. He seems to react slowly to runs from the other team. The team just isn't consistent in any aspect of the game, and I feel like some of that has to do with the coaching. We've blown so many big leads and lost to so many bad teams (teams with bad records and teams on losing streaks) that I can't keep pointing to bad luck or bad individual play. I think this team is capable of more, and I think O'Brien is capable of more, and I'm very frustrated with the way he's been giving out minutes and approaching match-ups.

DisapointedPacerFan
01-27-2008, 12:31 AM
Man...are we that bad???

CableKC
01-27-2008, 12:40 AM
Honestly.....was anyone really surprised that we lost to the Heat?

I'm not. When you need a losing streak to end......go play the Pacers.

Also....for whatever reason, we have a knack for losing games against lottery-bound teams. Against the 5 teams with the worst records ( obviously, teams that we should be able to beat EVEN without JONeal ).......we are 5-4.

We hit our regular scoring drought at the worst time during the 4th QTR and the bottom fell out ( like normal ). Unfortunately, this is just becoming the norm......I've become so desensitized to this....that I'm beginning not to care.

As for the those that argue against tanking......I think that we are really trying to play and not "intentionally" lose.......but I don't think it makes any difference.....whether we try or not....we're probably going to still lose most of these games....simply cuz we aren't that good.

Kofi
01-27-2008, 12:52 AM
As for the those that argue against tanking......I think that we are really trying to play and not "intentionally" lose.......but I don't think it makes any difference.....whether we try or not....we're probably going to still lose most of these games....simply cuz we aren't that good.

Pretty much, yeah. I don't think you can blame O'Brien at all. I mean, he's gotten Dunleavy playing by far the best of his career, Tinsley's having a career year, Rush and Williams are playing well, and we're still mediocre, even with J.O. in the lineup. O'Brien's a good coach, but nobody's a miracle worker. You could have Phil Jackson with Red Auerbach, Larry Brown, and Pat Riley as his assistants and I still think we'd be below .500.

But look on the bright side, the regular season is more than half over already.

Hoop
01-27-2008, 01:00 AM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Jim O'Brien, and I think that's unfair to him. Jim doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Jim has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.
Well coached teams don't do that ***** either.

Hicks
01-27-2008, 01:14 AM
[QUOTE=Hoop;648361]Well coached teams don't do that ***** either.[/QUOTE

So Phil Jackson would stop those things?

LG33
01-27-2008, 01:19 AM
Well coached teams don't do that ***** either.

So Phil Jackson would stop those things?

You think we could get Phil!? :)

bulldog
01-27-2008, 02:56 AM
So Phil Jackson would stop those things?

Hmm, I don't know, but the things you listed (turnovers, defense) do seem to be the sorts of things that traditionally a coach is thought to have influence over. Not to mention, the sorts of things Obie insisted he would improve on when he was hired.

So that is a bit of a hit against him.

Big Smooth
01-27-2008, 02:59 AM
The loss to Miami shows me that this Pacers team does have the right stuff to earn a Top 10 draft pick. :D

Reckoner
01-27-2008, 03:05 AM
Season going down the drain, but I don't blame the coach. Coaches in any sport are only as good as their players, and this pacers squad just isn't good enough (especially with the star player either playing injured or not playing at all).

Shade
01-27-2008, 03:06 AM
The worst thing about losing to the Heat: Shade was right. :sad:

I was due. :shrug:

We're in total freefall now, kiddies. I saw this coming, and it's why I've been in the "tank" frame of mind for the past couple weeks. We just aren't a good team. We don't have enough talent. Simple as that, really.

Shade
01-27-2008, 03:09 AM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Jim O'Brien, and I think that's unfair to him. Jim doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Jim has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.

Kinda makes you wonder what the point of even having a coach is these days if the players aren't gonna listen to him, huh?

Shade
01-27-2008, 03:26 AM
As of todays loss the Pacers have the 8th seed and the 12th worse record in the league and the 15th pick in the draft.

How do they have the 15th pick with the 12th worst record? Wouldn't they have the 12th pick?

Shade
01-27-2008, 03:29 AM
Btw, we have now lost to all 11 teams below us in the standings, except the Knicks (1-0) and the Nets (0-0). I'm willing to bet it won't be long before they both add us to their lists.

Bridge
01-27-2008, 03:34 AM
How do they have the 15th pick with the 12th worst record? Wouldn't they have the 12th pick?


The 14 teams who don't make the playoffs have a lottery for who gets picks 1-14. The next 16 picks are based on record.

The Pacers have the worst record of all the playoff teams. Three teams in the west who are not in the playoffs have a better record than we do.

Putnam
01-27-2008, 12:33 PM
I think fans should start chanting at games what they want management to do. Kinda like the Knicks did with "Fire Isiah" chants. Dolan may not listen, but I think Bird would.

So if you're at the game and you want the team to tank... get those around you to start a tank chant.



He would misunderstand, and then go and bring LaSalle Thompson out of retirement to play the 4.

ABADays
01-27-2008, 12:35 PM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Jim O'Brien, and I think that's unfair to him. Jim doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Jim has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.

Sorry Mal, I have to agree with Hoop on this one. When you have a roster like this if you can get them to buy into the fundamentals you can overcome some of your shortcomings. Discipline is something that can be demanded by a coach. There is no discipline in jacking up 3's. We had a coach with that philosophy here - he's now coaching at UAB.

I know I don't get to "see" the games because of my situation but you can very nearly hear the resignation in Mark and Slick's voices. It's hard not to follow that lead. I am at the point where I expect us to lose - and it doesn't matter who we play. As another poster pointed out, we have lost to virtually every team behind us in the standings. Sure, every dog has it's day but not the whole damn litter.

Another poster stated JOB was perfect for this state and this team. If that's true, well, uh . . . I just don't know what to say.

LG33
01-27-2008, 01:19 PM
I would just like to point out that Shade had four consecutive posts without interruption. That should be illegal and he should be drawn and quartered (or at least halved)

Hicks
01-27-2008, 01:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know, but the things you listed (turnovers, defense) do seem to be the sorts of things that traditionally a coach is thought to have influence over. Not to mention, the sorts of things Obie insisted he would improve on when he was hired.

So that is a bit of a hit against him.

When/where did he insist on that?

Hicks
01-27-2008, 01:35 PM
Kinda makes you wonder what the point of even having a coach is these days if the players aren't gonna listen to him, huh?

Well, we're all getting a bit brainwashed by the players we've seen these past few years, but not every player in this league ignores the coach and/or is unable to do what he coaches. We just have a bad roster right now.

Hicks
01-27-2008, 01:39 PM
Sorry Mal, I have to agree with Hoop on this one. When you have a roster like this if you can get them to buy into the fundamentals you can overcome some of your shortcomings. Discipline is something that can be demanded by a coach. There is no discipline in jacking up 3's. We had a coach with that philosophy here - he's now coaching at UAB.

The players haven't learned how to take "only" (no one's perfect) good shots. Jim won't tighten the leash because he wants them to be cold-blooded about taking open shots (no hesitation, minimum nerves). You don't get to that point if you tighten the reigns now.

avoidingtheclowns
01-27-2008, 01:42 PM
I think fans should start chanting at games what they want management to do. Kinda like the Knicks did with "Fire Isiah" chants. Dolan may not listen, but I think Bird would.

can anyone come up with a way to make "hey pacers management, trade away our monster contracts and excessively injured players for financial flexibility, prospects and draft picks because this once proud franchise has completely lost its way!" roll off the tongue better? it might be confusing when the 100 or so people at conseco try to chant that together.

JayRedd
01-27-2008, 02:00 PM
HPMTaOMCaEIfFFPaDPBtOPFHCLiW!!

Naptown_Seth
01-27-2008, 04:33 PM
Had to go Tivo on this one and just watched it this morning.

Dun - great 1st, faded somewhat, and then was pretty solid on offense the rest of the way.

Disaster on defense.

Troy - was struggling but started making a solid contribution on offense and rebounding.

Disaster on defense.

Owens - solid first half, complete meltdown ala Saras in the 2nd. This is why he's a 3rd stringer. When faced with Williams he wilted badly.

Quis - mixed, not overall bad, did some good things but also some sloppy mistakes and poor shot selection.

Diener - decent but really a backup forced to start, that's the only issue there.

Granger - really coming along, finding a way to drive effectively at times, helping on defense, but just asked too carry to big a load with a lack of talent around him.

Rush - nearly every shot he missed was WIDE open. Hard to explain it. The rest of his game was brilliant so it's hard to fault him despite the brutal shooting. He was at least able to make up for some of those misses.

Foster - like Granger, doing his part but not able to make up for talent issues around him (mainly on defense).

Shawne - sweet stroke, still struggling to understand the game. Here I'm worried that JOB isn't developing his game better. He's got the ability to have a Granger level of impact or more, but he hasn't really improved since game 1.


Wade got crazy hot and hit some ridiculous shots. The Pacers had no one that could defend Blount and when Dun or Troy were switched to Blount or Wright it was typically big trouble.

The Pacers did improve some rotations midway through the 4th which got them back in the game, but that shouldn't have been a problem before then and it was.

I noticed at one point Granger was slapping his thigh apparently asking for Troy to call out the pick for him. When he didn't Danny was forced to turn his head to find which side he was coming to and that left his man free to get a step on him and break them down. The good there is Danny is getting that awareness. The bad is Troy apparently wasn't helping him out. This is of course a guess based on their actions rather than knowing for certain.

Owens was a disaster in the 2nd half and should have been yanked. But I guess Diener just got run till he was out of gas...or JOB thought Owens would have such a big defensive impact it would cancel his terrible ball handling in the face of pressure. If so he was really wrong about that. As I said it was shades of Saras.


I know Dunleavy has had a solid season. I don't dislike him as a Pacer, but frankly with Danny and Shawne on the team I'd still trade him. You aren't winning now and those 2 have more upside to their game.

avoidingtheclowns
01-27-2008, 04:39 PM
i don't know how anxious i am to trade dunleavy but the argument can certainly be made that his value will never be higher.

Naptown_Seth
01-27-2008, 04:40 PM
The worst part about this game is that we can't even blame Violet Palmer.
That blocking call on Shawne in the first half, Wade star treatment at it's worst. He was square and 2 feet outside the circle.

On JOB/Dun, that final inbounds play was embarrassing. Not a great play, and then on Dun if he pump fakes the pass out he had Wade leaving to get it and could have hit Troy underneath for a layup. Instead he made that long pass and Wade did leave to get it.


ATC - well you have to think that a team looking for a final piece would see more in Dun NOW than Danny. Granger is a rebuilding piece, he's still more mistake prone and less of an offensive facilitator. Dun's value has to be at it's all time best, at least since post-draft. ;)

Naptown_Seth
01-27-2008, 04:50 PM
My point beyond this childish spat is that you blame seemingly everything on Rick Carlisle, and I think that's unfair to him. Rick doesn't tell them to turn the ball over, take bad shots, or play ****ty defense. Rick has a bad roster to work with. THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS PERFECT.
Fixed. Can someone take this back to a PD party pre-Rick firing for me. Fire up the DeLorean.

Nevermind, I was already saying it. ;) I think the response was "get over the trade and get rid of your man-love for Jackson" which I found very reasonable and in no way did it make me bitter.
:mad::D
:buddies:


So Phil Jackson would stop those things?
Well what DOES a coach do then? Rick was blamed for offense that fell apart for long stretches, turnovers, poor perimeter defense, Tinsley's never ending "injuries", the players behavior off the court and so on.

Just use the same ledger and accounting for both of them. Dun's having a career year? Great, because Rick never got career years out of players (Ron DPOY). Are Tinsley's numbers really better than any time with Rick? Is his defense a lot better now?

Dun shot 52% from inside the arc for Rick. His main improvement is his 3P%. That was on Rick? That he kept shooting the 3 the same as he had been in Oakland?

Right now this team is worse in points allowed per possession (ie, not a tempo thing) than they were last year. Rick was FIRED for his effort last season, so why shouldn't Jim face the same criticism?

The reason I'm on Jim's side is because I was on Rick's side. I'm not flip-flopping. I'm the one being consistent. BOTH coaches were given tough jobs. Rick was doing it just as well and was fired. This team has problems but is fun to watch? What about post-brawl? I hear how people loved that effort, well that was Rick.

They shouldn't have fired Rick because he was proven. That's done now though. JOB up till now has had pretty decent success as well. Clearly the main issue isn't the coach, though there do appear to be some coaching issues (rotations, some play calling). Let him be and start cleaning up the mess you (TPTB) made.

NuffSaid
01-27-2008, 05:04 PM
The worst part about this game is that we can't even blame Violet Palmer.
Is that the name of the female ref? I knew the moment I saw her on the sidelines it spelled disaster for my boyz. It never fails...every time she officiates a Pacers game they lose. That woman's a jinx for this team.

Alright. So it's easy to blame somebody else. She's still a jinx, but the Pacers didn't help matters much by not rotating to the Wings (Quis) and missing so many wide opened shots.

I question why JOB pulled Dunleavy so soon in the first half when he was the hot hand.

I question why JOB didn't start the second half with Owens at the Point instead of Deiner.

I question why JOB continued to go with Quis knowing he has struggled all month. Same could be said for Rush as far as him playing on a sore ankle. He and Deiner are both nursing injuries (Deiner, knee) and while both are trying their best, I don't think it's smart to force the issue. Let them start, but give Graham some minutes. Shave 'em off Deiner, Rush and Quis if you have to. I think he's shown he deserves a chance to show what he can do.

NuffSaid
01-27-2008, 05:17 PM
They shouldn't have fired Rick because he was proven. That's done now though. JOB up till now has had pretty decent success as well. Clearly the main issue isn't the coach, though there do appear to be some coaching issues (rotations, some play calling). Let him be and start cleaning up the mess you (TPTB) made.
I'll say it again...

Rick Carlisle was fired NOT because he couldn't coach, but because he didn't have the right players to play the style of game he coaches.

By the time all the trades had smooth themselves out, Rick no longer had a half-court team to coach. Instead, he had a team that played more of a transition game, i.e., fast breaks, catch-n-shoot, give-n-go...everything that depicted a more uptempo team. Could Rick coach such a team? Sure, but was he willing to do so and relinguish some control?

Ah! Now, that's the real question. My answer is no. But that's not to say Rick was a bad coach. I just think that with most of the same key players returning, it was time for him to go because those very key players were no longer responding to him.

Hicks
01-27-2008, 05:49 PM
Rick didn't relinquish some control because they suck at it. I see that now. The difference between Rick and Jim is that Rick said "this isn't working" and went to something more conservative. Jim is saying "this isn't working, but I believe they'll get it eventually". Time will tell if that's the right call or not.

Indianapolis_girly
01-27-2008, 08:09 PM
I didn't get a chance to watch more than the 1st quarter. But I checked the score from time to time on my phone.
Seems to me like the game went back and forth, then we went down by some baskets. Then we made it interesting but couldn't win it. I remember my mom saying "that's just sad." All I said was, "I really don't feel sorry for this team anymore." It sounds bad but it's just tough love, I guess.

Los Angeles
01-27-2008, 09:51 PM
Sorry to jump in late, but at the beginning of the season, most of us could agree on three things:

1) The players key to our success would be JO and Tinsley.
2) The most important backups were Ike and Marquis.
3) With all four of those players playing well, we would only be an average team.

Now look at the roster, Hmmm ... when did we start losing again?

This isn't rocket science, folks. Losing players = Losing games.

Unless you're the Spurs. :censored:

OnlyPacersLeft
01-27-2008, 10:57 PM
I watched this game on my phone and noted 1 turnover in the first quarter to Miami's 7...I may be off but then 2nd we had 4 and it went up each quarter from there. You just can't do that...

jeffg-body
01-27-2008, 11:44 PM
Call me an optimist, but I saw a few good moments in the game even though we lost. Danny is developing into a floor leader, Dunleavy was aggressive through the first half, Rush is getting more and more acclimated and Foster is still the beast on the glass. I was hoping to see some Graham though.

With this much change in team personnel and philosophy I have looked at this season as more of a transition phase. It is gonna take a while to have the players understand the new systems and for upper management to find out who will fit and who will need to go.

:laugh::dance::D;):rolleyes:

Peck
01-28-2008, 04:06 AM
Well believe it or not I just now watched this game. I stayed off of the basketball part of pd over the past 24 hours so I wouldn't see the results.

Needless to say I wish I would have sneaked a peek so that way I wouldn't have waisted my time.

There comes a point in time, and I believe we are there now, where you have to ask. Is our talent really that bad or is it something else?

There is no doubt that injury's to Tinsley and O'Neal (wow where have we heard this before) have depleted the talent depth. You now have a p.g. who up until about a month ago was getting DNP-CD game after game and his backup spent several games on the inactiv list.

Our center spot is just, well..... I don't even know what to say about it. We have three power forwards playing the center spot and each of them has an inherant weakness in thier game that just isn't going to change.

So back to the question, is our talent level as bad as our play has shown lately?

If so, then really there just isn't much to say.

If not, then what is the problem here.

Either way I have to ask, should we have Ike be getting DNP-CD's game after game? Not that I think he is a solution to any problem, but let's be honest here. With O'Neal out, now is the time to see what we have because once he comes back he won't see the floor again.

Look if he sucks, which he did suck right after he came back from injury, then let's look to move him on. He still has the magic "P" word associated with his name so some team somewhere might give you something for him. Maybe something with Seattle could be worked out? Who knows.

On the one hand, these last 3 games have been troubling because I have zero faith going into the games that we have a chance to win. What troubles me is I just can't make up my mind if it is purely talent or something else at this point in time.

Either way the fact that we are the 8th seed sickens me.

Unclebuck
01-28-2008, 10:22 AM
The Pacers team without JO and JT is probably the least talented team in the NBA. So I am not surprised that they are faltering in the 4th quarter on the road even against poor teams.

Arcadian
01-28-2008, 11:12 AM
I don't think that we are very talented. Especially at the guard spots. Espeacially when two of those guards are historically injury prone.

Shade
01-28-2008, 12:40 PM
Well believe it or not I just now watched this game. I stayed off of the basketball part of pd over the past 24 hours so I wouldn't see the results.

Needless to say I wish I would have sneaked a peek so that way I wouldn't have waisted my time.

There comes a point in time, and I believe we are there now, where you have to ask. Is our talent really that bad or is it something else?

There is no doubt that injury's to Tinsley and O'Neal (wow where have we heard this before) have depleted the talent depth. You now have a p.g. who up until about a month ago was getting DNP-CD game after game and his backup spent several games on the inactiv list.

Our center spot is just, well..... I don't even know what to say about it. We have three power forwards playing the center spot and each of them has an inherant weakness in thier game that just isn't going to change.

So back to the question, is our talent level as bad as our play has shown lately?

If so, then really there just isn't much to say.

If not, then what is the problem here.

Either way I have to ask, should we have Ike be getting DNP-CD's game after game? Not that I think he is a solution to any problem, but let's be honest here. With O'Neal out, now is the time to see what we have because once he comes back he won't see the floor again.

Look if he sucks, which he did suck right after he came back from injury, then let's look to move him on. He still has the magic "P" word associated with his name so some team somewhere might give you something for him. Maybe something with Seattle could be worked out? Who knows.

On the one hand, these last 3 games have been troubling because I have zero faith going into the games that we have a chance to win. What troubles me is I just can't make up my mind if it is purely talent or something else at this point in time.

Either way the fact that we are the 8th seed sickens me.

Yes, our talent level is just that low.

I've been saying since the GS trade that one of the reasons I wasn't happy with it is because it all hinged on Ike, and I wasn't really impressed with Ike. Well, so far, Ike has been a big bust. If it weren't for Dun's play the trade would go down as one of the worst in Pacers history.

Our best players are Foster, Dunleavy, Granger, and Williams (who is still inconsistent). We have have good players, but no superstar player. Hell, even Minnesota, Seattle, and Miami have current or potential superstar players they can build around. All three of those teams will pass us within the next three years.

BoomBaby33
01-28-2008, 01:41 PM
Yes, our talent level is just that low.

I've been saying since the GS trade that one of the reasons I wasn't happy with it is because it all hinged on Ike, and I wasn't really impressed with Ike. Well, so far, Ike has been a big bust. If it weren't for Dun's play the trade would go down as one of the worst in Pacers history.

Our best players are Foster, Dunleavy, Granger, and Williams (who is still inconsistent). We have have good players, but no superstar player. Hell, even Minnesota, Seattle, and Miami have current or potential superstar players they can build around. All three of those teams will pass us within the next three years.

I would have to disagree with the worst trade ever. It will always be the Tom Owens trade for the draft pick that turned out to be Michael Jordan. IMO, nothing will ever top that. At least we got rid of Jack in the GS trade. There was some positive to it. Granted more negative, but at least got rid of Jack. And losing Jack did not cost us a championship, nor ever would have.

Your point about Minny, Seattle, and Miami really hurts, because its the sad truth. Danny is not a centerpiece, he is the great second option, ala Pippen was.

If your correct about us being this mediocre / bad 3 years down the road, then we are in a heap of trouble. Say hello to the Oklahoma City Pacers (or even the Seattle Pacers).

Shade
01-28-2008, 01:47 PM
I would have to disagree with the worst trade ever. It will always be the Tom Owens trade for the draft pick that turned out to be Michael Jordan. IMO, nothing will ever top that. At least we got rid of Jack in the GS trade. There was some positive to it. Granted more negative, but at least got rid of Jack. And losing Jack did not cost us a championship, nor ever would have.

Your point about Minny, Seattle, and Miami really hurts, because its the sad truth. Danny is not a centerpiece, he is the great second option, ala Pippen was.

If your correct about us being this mediocre / bad 3 years down the road, then we are in a heap of trouble. Say hello to the Oklahoma City Pacers (or even the Seattle Pacers).

Agreed about the Owens deal, nothing else is even close. But that's why I said "one of" and not "the" worst trade.

I don't see how we can get much better with this roster. Most of our players are playing as well as they ever have or likely ever will, except for those chronically injured who will probably remain so.

By the trade deadline, we need to either go balls-to-the-wall and put together a package for a superstar, or get draft picks and try to nab a potential star that way. What we're doing right now isn't working, and it's never going to work.

BoomBaby33
01-28-2008, 02:06 PM
Agreed about the Owens deal, nothing else is even close. But that's why I said "one of" and not "the" worst trade.

I don't see how we can get much better with this roster. Most of our players are playing as well as they ever have or likely ever will, except for those chronically injured who will probably remain so.

By the trade deadline, we need to either go balls-to-the-wall and put together a package for a superstar, or get draft picks and try to nab a potential star that way. What we're doing right now isn't working, and it's never going to work.

Unfortunately, I dont think we have enough to get a superstar right now. We would have to mortgage our future for the next 3-4-5 drafts to get a superstar by the trade deadline. Thats too risky IMO. And too New York Knick-esque for my blood.

We have been stuck in neutral for about 2 years now, no upside, not enough downside to get us high in the draft. We dont have anybody that any other team wants outside of Danny, Jeff, or maybe Shawne. We give those guys up for one superstar, and it would be pointless because that superstar wouldn't have anybody around him to help. Thats the case the Paul Pierce made to the Celtics top brass.

I mean look at how Boston did it. They stunk for 3-4 years, got good picks, young prospects, and cashed those assets in on KG and Ray Allen. Now look where they are - probably the team best suited for an NBA title this year outside of the Spurs or Pistons. Its actually pretty sickening thinking how quickly they went from cellar dwellers to one of the best 3-4 teams in the NBA in just one season.

With that being said, IMO, we need to trim the fat, and just start over. Just hope we dont sink too low. Take the best we can get for JO and Tins - in that, I mean picks, young guys and expirings. I mean come on, at least we dont have Donald Sterling as our owner. The Simons will spend the necessary money to bring a contender. However unfortunatley, JO's contract was a mistake in hindsight.

Bball
01-28-2008, 02:35 PM
I still say Tinsley is what makes the difference. As long as it is good Tinsley that is playing then he makes a positive impact on the team.

JO either makes no appreciable difference in the outcome or even negatively affects it because his presence makes the others around him worse.

The problem is, the only thing consistent about Tinsley is his inconsistency. You can count on him being inconsistent.

And the woeful perimeter defense is where the real problem lies that has to be corrected yesterday. And Tinsley doesn't help with defense at all. Offense comes and goes but defense should be your constant. We are a sieve.

-Bball

CableKC
01-28-2008, 02:53 PM
Either way I have to ask, should we have Ike be getting DNP-CD's game after game? Not that I think he is a solution to any problem, but let's be honest here. With O'Neal out, now is the time to see what we have because once he comes back he won't see the floor again.

Look if he sucks, which he did suck right after he came back from injury, then let's look to move him on. He still has the magic "P" word associated with his name so some team somewhere might give you something for him. Maybe something with Seattle could be worked out? Who knows.
Although logic would dictate that we appear to be between a "rock and a hard place" and try to play our young players to see what we have....I think it's cuz of Small Ball that Ike is not playing.

Although I would love to see Ike paired up with Foster in this Small Ball lineup cuz of his somewhat decent speed and low-post skill....he wouldn't play ahead of Shawne, Granger or Dunleavy at the PF spot cuz he can't shoot the 3pt shot......that would mean that he would be behind Foster or Murphy at the Center spot...which isn't very appealing when we have 6'7" player defending the paint.

Like it or not......if we are to continue with this Small Ball offense ( which I hate )....then we have to put up the best lineup that we can. Unfortunately, Ike doesn't fit in real well with a Small Ball Lineup.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-28-2008, 03:01 PM
I would have to disagree with the worst trade ever. It will always be the Tom Owens trade for the draft pick that turned out to be Michael Jordan. IMO, nothing will ever top that. At least we got rid of Jack in the GS trade. There was some positive to it. Granted more negative, but at least got rid of Jack. And losing Jack did not cost us a championship, nor ever would have.

Your point about Minny, Seattle, and Miami really hurts, because its the sad truth. Danny is not a centerpiece, he is the great second option, ala Pippen was.

If your correct about us being this mediocre / bad 3 years down the road, then we are in a heap of trouble. Say hello to the Oklahoma City Pacers (or even the Seattle Pacers).

yet golden state is out competing in the western conf.! And yet we struggle to compete in the east...but sure losing jack wasn't that big of a loss. I think people forget all the clutch games he won for us because of his off court incidents.
We wanted charechter...well here it is folkes! 19-26...you loving it yet?

Bball
01-28-2008, 03:07 PM
yet golden state is out competing in the western conf.! And yet we struggle to compete in the east...but sure losing jack wasn't that big of a loss. I think people forget all the clutch games he won for us because of his off court incidents.
We wanted charechter...well here it is folkes! 19-26...you loving it yet?


Last I checked, this team still had character issues....

-Bball

Shade
01-28-2008, 03:34 PM
yet golden state is out competing in the western conf.! And yet we struggle to compete in the east...but sure losing jack wasn't that big of a loss. I think people forget all the clutch games he won for us because of his off court incidents.
We wanted charechter...well here it is folkes! 19-26...you loving it yet?

Golden State is fool's gold. They're a fun team to watch, but they're not a title contender.

Hell, we nearly beat them twice.

Since86
01-28-2008, 03:56 PM
Golden State is fool's gold. They're a fun team to watch, but they're not a title contender.

Hell, we nearly beat them twice.

Correction:

We nearly beat them in GS and did beat them at home.

Will Galen
01-28-2008, 04:31 PM
By the trade deadline, we need to either go balls-to-the-wall and put together a package for a superstar, or get draft picks and try to nab a potential star that way. What we're doing right now isn't working, and it's never going to work.

What superstar is available? Vince? Reports are he is no longer a superstar. Kidd? He wants to go to a contender. Draft picks? Teams aren't trading unprotected picks.

Hicks
01-28-2008, 05:32 PM
You can't put the GS trade above the Miller for Pollard trade in terms of awful.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-28-2008, 06:18 PM
Although logic would dictate that we appear to be between a "rock and a hard place" and try to play our young players to see what we have....I think it's cuz of Small Ball that Ike is not playing.

Although I would love to see Ike paired up with Foster in this Small Ball lineup cuz of his somewhat decent speed and low-post skill....he wouldn't play ahead of Shawne, Granger or Dunleavy at the PF spot cuz he can't shoot the 3pt shot......that would mean that he would be behind Foster or Murphy at the Center spot...which isn't very appealing when we have 6'7" player defending the paint.

Like it or not......if we are to continue with this Small Ball offense ( which I hate )....then we have to put up the best lineup that we can. Unfortunately, Ike doesn't fit in real well with a Small Ball Lineup.
what are you talking about? Ike would be a great small ball center!

BoomBaby33
01-28-2008, 07:24 PM
yet golden state is out competing in the western conf.! And yet we struggle to compete in the east...but sure losing jack wasn't that big of a loss. I think people forget all the clutch games he won for us because of his off court incidents.
We wanted charechter...well here it is folkes! 19-26...you loving it yet?

Until Jack leads GS to the NBA title, it wasn't that big of a loss for our Pacers.

BoomBaby33
01-28-2008, 07:28 PM
You can't put the GS trade above the Miller for Pollard trade in terms of awful.

That wasn't really a traditional trade. We were going to lose Brad for nothing to free agency, and then they offered a sign and trade for Pollard so Brad could get more money. Brad was going to leave either way.

And IMO Pollard wasn't that bad. Laugh all you want, but I'd rather have him than Troy right about now.

d_c
01-28-2008, 08:09 PM
Golden State is fool's gold. They're a fun team to watch, but they're not a title contender.

Hell, we nearly beat them twice.

The Warriors definitely aren't a real contender. They're a pretty good team in a great conference, but they don't have the talent to be a true contender.

The whole point from the Warriors' perspective is that they have far, far better short and long term outlooks than they did 3 months before Nellie took over. They went from being one of the worst teams in the league in terms of their talent-salary committment ratio to a team with a pretty good cap situation that's able to win more now while having young prospects to compete later.

I don't think anyone fooled themselves into thinking that hiring a 66 year old Nellie with the crap roster/cap situation he inherited was all of a sudden going to turn into a title contender. The goal was to make the short and long term situations better than they were in the previous 12 years, and they definitely are.

d_c
01-28-2008, 08:16 PM
I mean look at how Boston did it. They stunk for 3-4 years, got good picks, young prospects, and cashed those assets in on KG and Ray Allen. Now look where they are - probably the team best suited for an NBA title this year outside of the Spurs or Pistons. Its actually pretty sickening thinking how quickly they went from cellar dwellers to one of the best 3-4 teams in the NBA in just one season.

With that being said, IMO, we need to trim the fat, and just start over. Just hope we dont sink too low. Take the best we can get for JO and Tins - in that, I mean picks, young guys and expirings. I mean come on, at least we dont have Donald Sterling as our owner. The Simons will spend the necessary money to bring a contender. However unfortunatley, JO's contract was a mistake in hindsight.

Appreciate what the Pacers did for so many years. They contended for a good while, then when their main pieces started to get old, Donnie Walsh rebuilt them on the fly and they kept winning w/o ever going back to the lottery. That was a remarkable run.

You probably wouldn't have re-signed Jermaine if you knew his health would turn out as it did, but c'mon. He was a young stud with the kind of talent that's very difficult to find. You don't just get rid of guys like that just because they're not Tim Duncan. It's not like you can just dump guys with Jermaine's size/ability one day and then find something even close to that a week later. Chances are, you'll go years without running into a talent like that.

Bball
01-28-2008, 09:13 PM
Appreciate what the Pacers did for so many years. They contended for a good while, then when their main pieces started to get old, Donnie Walsh rebuilt them on the fly and they kept winning w/o ever going back to the lottery. That was a remarkable run.




My opinion is that you are talking about what is now part of the problem, not part of the answer. It was the mishandling of the team in the late 90's and 2000 that directly led to the place we find ourselves now. I fail to see how purposely not letting a contending team run it's course and tweaking it to stay competitive is better than perpetually putting the team into the land of 'mediocre'. Rebuilding on the fly was a farce and we're paying for it now. If we would've actually gotten something out of rebuilding on the fly, then maybe there would be an argument for it. We didn't (unless someone wants to argue for the 61 win banner at Conseco). And since that 61 win team turned out to be an aberration then it's a little hard to argue for it's validity when talking about Walsh's job here in the 2000's.

What we got was a short-circuit and early closing of our championship window. We got one of the worst coaches in the NBA to coach us in a move that is a head-scratcher even as a PR move. What's worse, we got this rookie coach at a time when we needed anything but a rookie coach.

Absolutely mismanaged and the problems have done nothing but compound.



-Bball

Hicks
01-28-2008, 09:20 PM
That wasn't really a traditional trade. We were going to lose Brad for nothing to free agency, and then they offered a sign and trade for Pollard so Brad could get more money. Brad was going to leave either way.

And IMO Pollard wasn't that bad. Laugh all you want, but I'd rather have him than Troy right about now.

I'll even start by saying I liked Pollard, but it would have made much, much more sense to let Brad walk before you pay similar money to Pollard for years. Either pay up for a good center, or don't pay up for a mediocre one.

JayRedd
01-28-2008, 09:24 PM
My opinion is that you are talking about what is now part of the problem, not part of the answer. It was the mishandling of the team in the late 90's and 2000 that directly led to the place we find ourselves now. I fail to see how purposely not letting a contending team run it's course and tweaking it to stay competitive is better than perpetually putting the team into the land of 'mediocre'. Rebuilding on the fly was a farce and we're paying for it now. If we would've actually gotten something out of rebuilding on the fly, then maybe there would be an argument for it. We didn't (unless someone wants to argue for the 61 win banner at Conseco). And since that 61 win team turned out to be an aberration then it's a little hard to argue for it's validity when talking about Walsh's job here in the 2000's.

What we got was a short-circuit and early closing of our championship window. We got one of the worst coaches in the NBA to coach us in a move that is a head-scratcher even as a PR move. What's worse, we got this rookie coach at a time when we needed anything but a rookie coach.

Absolutely mismanaged and the problems have done nothing but compound.



-Bball


I really question whether or not we actually live on the same planet sometimes.

Arcadian
01-28-2008, 09:32 PM
Mark Jackson holding onto a starting job in 2000 was an aberration.
Smits retiring and Dale Davis demanding a trade are facts.

Hoop
01-28-2008, 09:50 PM
I'd take Carlisle back in a second, at least we played smarter, especially down the stretch. We couldn't make a damn shot, but we took good ones. Now we still can't make shots and have no freaking idea the difference in what a good shot or bad shot is. At least Carlisle would have this team playing better team defense, for sure.

Either we have the dumbest group of players ever assembled or the coach is not getting across what he wants from them. Dun is suppose to be a smart player, or so I've been told over and over, but my god he makes so many dumb plays it's hard to keep track. Danny's basketball IQ looks dumber than ever at times, he looked like a fairly smart player under Rick. I know Danny's numbers are up, but the faster pace and more shots is automatically going to do that.

Maybe the players are as confused as I am. JOB has not been very straight about anything he's said to us fans, maybe he's not straight with the players either. Early in the season he said JO wouldn't play till he could practice, then we find out he basically hasn't practiced all season and he still played when he wanted to. Then Tins was suspended or not, but JOB said that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Sounds to me like "I'm lying and I don't give a ***** what the fans think".

I don't have any answers, I'm just completely frustrated, I'm starting to hate all our players and the coach, yes hate. That's something that's never happened in the 20+ years I've had season tickets. Heck, I never hated Jack or Ron, just got mad at them at times. Certainly never hated Carlsile.

Peck
01-28-2008, 11:01 PM
I'd take Carlisle back in a second, at least we played smarter, especially down the stretch. We couldn't make a damn shot, but we took good ones. Now we still can't make shots and have no freaking idea the difference in what a good shot or bad shot is. At least Carlisle would have this team playing better team defense, for sure.

Either we have the dumbest group of players ever assembled or the coach is not getting across what he wants from them. Dun is suppose to be a smart player, or so I've been told over and over, but my god he makes so many dumb plays it's hard to keep track. Danny's basketball IQ looks dumber than ever at times, he looked like a fairly smart player under Rick. I know Danny's numbers are up, but the faster pace and more shots is automatically going to do that.

Maybe the players are as confused as I am. JOB has not been very straight about anything he's said to us fans, maybe he's not straight with the players either. Early in the season he said JO wouldn't play till he could practice, then we find out he basically hasn't practiced all season and he still played when he wanted to. Then Tins was suspended or not, but JOB said that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Sounds to me like "I'm lying and I don't give a ***** what the fans think".
I don't have any answers, I'm just completely frustrated, I'm starting to hate all our players and the coach, yes hate. That's something that's never happened in the 20+ years I've had season tickets. Heck, I never hated Jack or Ron, just got mad at them at times. Certainly never hated Carlsile.


I am just so very happy that someone other than me is making these kind of statements. If I said it, it would just come across as more J.O. hate.

But IMO, you are exactly right.

This is one of the things that I have been really down on myself with O'Brien because it made all of that early season tough talk just that, talk.

Which really really really makes me wonder about this franchise.

ABADays
01-28-2008, 11:08 PM
We've been talking for a long, long time now.

Shade
01-29-2008, 01:08 AM
I am just so very happy that someone other than me is making these kind of statements. If I said it, it would just come across as more J.O. hate.

But IMO, you are exactly right.

This is one of the things that I have been really down on myself with O'Brien because it made all of that early season tough talk just that, talk.

Which really really really makes me wonder about this franchise.

I've started to get past the "anger" stage and am now just stuck in the "apathy" stage. I just don't have much hope for things getting any better. In fact, I fully expect things to get worse.

Hicks
01-29-2008, 02:29 AM
That line does disturb me re: Jim and the 'practice/play' thing.

BoomBaby33
01-29-2008, 09:19 AM
I'll even start by saying I liked Pollard, but it would have made much, much more sense to let Brad walk before you pay similar money to Pollard for years. Either pay up for a good center, or don't pay up for a mediocre one.

Agreed, but I think at that point, we were still a top tier contender, and needed someone to play next to JO in the post, and Scott was probably the best (al beit, not the cheapest) option we had at that point.