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kester99
01-26-2008, 12:35 PM
This article discusses local and league concerns about the Pacers who have slipped to dead last in attendance.

http://cms.ibj.com/ASPXPages/6iframes/FrontEndArticlesDetailPage.aspx?ArticleID=10342&NoFrame=1

Oneal07
01-26-2008, 12:43 PM
It's things like this that should make our players play hard every night. Every single player on the team have a chip on their shoulder. I just don't understand why this doesn't motivate our players

Bball
01-26-2008, 12:57 PM
1. Inept management.

1A. Ownership that is overly loyal to management and/or too unmotivated to do what needs to be done.

That's now the problem.

Really, you can't blame players or management because ownership has really missed the boat on stepping in to put a stop to the bleeding and seeing to it that those issues were handled.

So either this team is being ran (into the ground) exactly like they think it should be ran.... or they don't care.

Like I said, I've all but made up my mind the Simons bought the team for the wrong reason(s). Yes, they kept the team in Indy, but they didn't get into it to bring a basketball championship to the Indy. And unfortunately, it's looking more to me like a part of it could've been that they just wanted a pro sports team so they could be like other billionaires and join that club.

If I was the city I'd offer to cut the yearly lease price in half, but that is as far as I would go (sarcasm: the lease is 1.00 per year). IOW: This mess needs righted internally. Until the Pacers straighten up their own mess and start running this franchise like it should be with some vision and energy, the city should NOT waste taxpayer dollars on propping them up and be even more of an enabler.

As another poster said, the fact that there is even a valid argument as to who is and has been calling the shots just points to more of the problem.

This team is getting exactly what it deserves for allowing Walsh to hang on too long... and nobody externally has any idea whether Bird can sink, swim, or fly on his own because we have no idea what he's actually responsible for or where he's had his hands tied (or wings clipped). Internally, that should be known though.

Adam said it and I agree- The Simons loyalty (to a fault (my words)) to Walsh is the ruination of this franchise.



-Bball

Speed
01-26-2008, 01:05 PM
I agree with almost everything you said, but I don't think it matters if the Simons bought it for the wrong reasons as long as they'll spend the money, which they are willing to do to be good and have done.

Their lack of judgement or accountability when it comes to decision makers is a good point. Its the wrong thing to do for all the right reasons, that doesn't cut it in the business world.

Another point is that maybe they wouldn't be hemmoraging money if they didn't pay Walsh and Bird to do the same job now for 4 years.

Bball
01-26-2008, 01:23 PM
Another point is that maybe they wouldn't be hemmoraging money if they didn't pay Walsh and Bird to do the same job now for 4 years.

:ding:

...And pay them well too! I've said this so much I'm sure people know it by heart, but I just don't understand what Walsh is still doing here if Bird is really the one in charge.

-Bball

jmoney2584
01-26-2008, 01:52 PM
Maybe slipping to dead last in attendance will fire up the trade machine as people call for a change.

ABADays
01-26-2008, 04:40 PM
I don't buy for one second the Simons bought the Pacers for the wrong reason. Unless hometown civic interest is the wrong reson.

Putnam
01-26-2008, 05:37 PM
Kester, thanks for posting this. It is a good article, except for this bit:


The Pacers have to hope the off-the-court incidents that have marred the team’s reputation in recent years don’t have a lasting effect that supersedes whatever success the team can find in the win-loss column, sports marketers said.


No. The Pacers have to leave nothing to hope. They have to admit that the off-court incidents are having a lasting effect and that fans aren't going to come back to a team whose reputation is marred.

I believe O'Neal, Tinsley and Harrison will have to go before the brawl is truly behind us. Three years have gone by, but this team is still the brawl team.

BlueNGold
01-26-2008, 08:09 PM
I believe O'Neal, Tinsley and Harrison will have to go before the brawl is truly behind us. Three years have gone by, but this team is still the brawl team.


There is some wisdom. Whatever one might think about those players, even if JO and Tins are two of our most talented players, the public is not fond of them and that is a bad thing on several levels.

First, the public will not follow the team and spend big bucks to come see a team going nowhere. Second, the business/networking "fans" are not going to buy blocks of tickets to bring their customers to games. It's simply not good business as long as the biggest news going on with the Pacers happens on W 38th street.

So, we are really in a situation where we should continually seek to move them for some amount of value. If that cannot be done, we should be seeking to find their replacements anyway. We should start with drafting a PG or PF/C in the draft this spring. Puhleeze no more SF's. We don't even need a SG as bad with Rush and Quis on the team. More than anything, we need a real center in the middle.

Naptown_Seth
01-26-2008, 10:12 PM
I don't buy for one second the Simons bought the Pacers for the wrong reason. Unless hometown civic interest is the wrong reson.
I agree. It's not a fault to be patient and loyal and it's sad that we allow it to be categorized as such. Had Bird, Ron, JO, Tinsley, Rick, etc turned it around they'd look brilliant. That does happen, it's not like it was obviously going to fail. There are a LOT of missteps to this point, but the first few weren't clearly the beginning of the end.

Frankly they were hanging in there even last year prior to the trade. Rio hurt a lot, but had they stayed just over .500 and NOT had 8 Seconds, Tins/JO hurt all the time, Cloud 9 and a rash trade decision they might be getting this thing under control a bit.

Maybe they should have known Tins had a nose for trouble, and if that's the case then they were ridiculously loyal to him. Otherwise none of us could have avoided that situation. It seems tough to believe that Bird of all people was willing to be overly loyal to Tins prior to 8 Seconds, especially if pal Rick wasn't a big fan of Tins' game.


Look, the LAST major move for this roster was the GS deal. No other move has had this kind of impact. When I complained last year people said give it time. When the season ended in disaster I was told it was Rick's fault. When they won their first 3 I was told "told you so". When they started to skid it changed to that's what .500 teams do.

Isn't it time to own up on this, they made one bad trade and it's just getting to be one year coming up. The problem isn't a long spiral, it's that the team was on thin ice and the last thing they could afford was that one disaster trade. They did it and now they haven't had enough time to fix it.


I'm really sick of people dismissing 61 freaking wins as no big deal. It was 1-0 in the ECF too, not some huge flop. They lost to the champs, a team that virtually swept the Lakers after battling with Indy. It's not like they haven't put a damn good product out even in recent years.

Someone decided that teetering on .500 with injuries to JO/Tins and Jack with a bad rep was intolerable. It wasn't. As far as low points go it was pretty good in fact. Only making the playoffs as your down year, then going to the ECF or Finals in your good years is the stuff of elite teams.

Perhaps Bird isn't GM material but didn't the owners have to find out for themselves? Walsh wasn't sticking around forever. So they are finding out now. Let's see what happens this summer before assuming ownership isn't noticing. Half a season wasn't enough to be a trend. Of course I said the same thing regarding Rick, but Bird was happy to pull the trigger on that. I guess he'll understand if the Simons do the same this June.

Naptown_Seth
01-26-2008, 10:15 PM
It's not the brawl, it's the losing.

aceace
01-26-2008, 10:40 PM
IMHO: Walsh has been great Bird came in just before the brawl when we were expected to be very good. The brawl could not be blamed on management neither could Artest's trade demand. The trade that brought Al back was a decision that most on here supported. Yes, it is about wins and losses. Blaming management is wrong at this point. JO with his injury situation, Tinsley with all his problems makes both at this time difficult to unload. No matter what, the Simons have a right not to absorb a huge financial loss. I am sure Bird is on the phone trying to make this team better. Its a difficult position to be in.

grace
01-26-2008, 10:46 PM
It's the brawl and the losing. When people aren't going to games because "The Pacers are nothing but a bunch of thugs" it's about the aftermath of the brawl and all the off the court stuff that's been going on since.

David Stern looking into this cracks me up. When he looks at us and thinks "I did all this" does he do it with a smile on his face?

As for the city giving the Pacers financial help do you honestly think anyone but die hard Pacers fans are going to be in favor of it? I don't. I'm not even sure I'm in favor of it.

BlueNGold
01-27-2008, 12:27 AM
It's not the brawl, it's the losing.

Need to look up the chain of causation to find the root cause for the losses. IMO, character issues and poor management are the cause of the losses.

Specifically, the losses are caused by bad trades and chemistry problems even on talented teams. The trades and chemistry problems were caused by trade demands (ie. Ron Artest is the man!), bad relationships (JO/Artest, Tins/RC, JO/Bird, etc.) and character issues (ie selfishness and immaturity).

I guess some people will always believe in hanging onto players regardless. IMO the Pacers went with that philosophy for a very long time...literally years...until the pain and embarrassment and suspensions and particularly the chemistry issues just got too bad. Actually, when Reggie retired it really started to fall apart....hmmm, I think he knew where this ship was headed.

...but not all of this is on the players themselves. Poor management decisions led to the assembly of this embarrassing mess. Or maybe the problem goes to the very top. Actually, I am pretty certain at this point that the problem goes all the way up. The owners should have made different decisions hiring their management.

No, the police reports from players like Artest, Jackson, JO, Harrison, Marshall, Tinsley, Quis, Williams,...am I missing any? Probably several. :rolleyes:.....are not the root cause either. But neither is losing. Both are symptoms...

Bball
01-27-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't buy for one second the Simons bought the Pacers for the wrong reason. Unless hometown civic interest is the wrong reson.


Where's their civic pride while this mess is compounding?

I'm tired of people getting passes for what they did 20+ years ago. Their the owners, if their management can't fix it then they need to do something themselves and fix their management.

-Bball

Young
01-27-2008, 05:21 PM
This article makes me wonder, if Eric Gordon is who the Pacers need?

I am not as high on him as some are. I think he should turn out alright but I like Derrick Rose a lot better. But should the Pacers maybe look to move up in the draft to get him if they don't land a high enough pick? Especially if IU has a nice NCAA tournament run Gordon could be the guy to take to turn things around in the stands. Not sure about on the court though.

kester99
01-27-2008, 05:35 PM
This article makes me wonder, if Eric Gordon is who the Pacers need?

I am not as high on him as some are. I think he should turn out alright but I like Derrick Rose a lot better. But should the Pacers maybe look to move up in the draft to get him if they don't land a high enough pick? Especially if IU has a nice NCAA tournament run Gordon could be the guy to take to turn things around in the stands. Not sure about on the court though.


When the Pacers drafted Damon Bailey, I remember a lot of interest being generated throughout my area of the state. People started following the Pacers who hadn't really done so before. Obviously Damon never worked out on the court. But if the Pacers could get a few (even one or two) good well-known players of local origin, I do think it would help.

Young
01-27-2008, 07:18 PM
When the Pacers drafted Damon Bailey, I remember a lot of interest being generated throughout my area of the state. People started following the Pacers who hadn't really done so before. Obviously Damon never worked out on the court. But if the Pacers could get a few (even one or two) good well-known players of local origin, I do think it would help.

Yeah I was thinking about Damon Bailey.

I think that Gordon is a much better pro prospect and should turn into a better one than Damon was.

Things have gotten really bad and I am begining to think that Eric Gordon could solve these problems quickly.

jeffg-body
01-27-2008, 07:52 PM
I have to agree that EJ is a better talent than Damon Bailey, but he is still pretty raw as a player as shown by Uconn's veteran guards and IMO he should stay in school another year and polish his game. On the selfish side I would like to see the Pacers get him somehow.:cool:

BillS
01-28-2008, 08:44 AM
I think the comment reactions are more telling than the article itself. Few specifics as to who the "thugs" still are, just general disdain for the Pacers as a team "full" of them.

I'm at a loss to figure out what to do short of free tickets for kids.

Speed
01-28-2008, 08:58 AM
It's not the brawl, it's the losing.


Exactly, unlikeable players is just the icing. Sucking is the cake.

Kofi
01-28-2008, 09:18 AM
Rebuild.

Unclebuck
01-28-2008, 10:01 AM
it is really simple. Walsh to us own admission, "fell in love with talent" management put all their eggs in the JO and Artest basket. That was the mistake, and it tales awhile to dig out from that big of a mistake - it is three years and running to dig out, maybe another 8 months or so then the digging out will be over and they can then start building something again.

I appauded their decision to build the team around JO and Ronnie (and as we have seen, both were needed together) so I cannot and will not after the fact act like I knew it was a bad choice.

Arcadian
01-28-2008, 10:28 AM
If the team was winning people would come to the games. Maybe Indy isn't a two team town either.

Really I think people should do what Grace did--follow another team for a couple years and find out for yourselves that most teams have bad years, too or as Bball puts it teams run into the ground.

gph
01-28-2008, 12:14 PM
The Simons bought the Pacers for the wrong reasons? Don't you buy any professional sports team to make money? They are an investment. Even losing money some years usually can be offset by the potential profit of a sale.

Separate the fan from the argument, business is business. Even Cuban, an owner that people talk is passionate about winning and a huge fan, still maintains that it is a business and that he maximizes profits. He has talked at length about putting together a winner-but as part of the overall entertainment experience. He makes more money from tickets and merch sales if he has a winner.

I think that applies to the Pacers-you can argue all day that character is an issue (and the IBJ article hints at the morality involved) but the bottom line is that winning is the best thing that could happen to improve the Pacers fortunes.

Which, to me, means you have to take the pill and rebuild. If you could trade tinsley for expiring and a pick, go for it. Harrison? So sorry you can't stay. Owens and Graham-not rotation, let's roll the dice with some NBDL players. JO can opt out or get the trade. I say go the route of the blazers or hornets-draft the best you can (and hope to get lucky) and focus on guys that want to play hard.

Shade
01-28-2008, 12:45 PM
The situation is so bad, said league insiders, NBA Commissioner David Stern is keeping an eye on it.

“It’s one of a handful of clubs the NBA is concerned about,” said Marc Ganis, president of Chicago-based Sportscorp Ltd., a firm that works with several NBA teams on business operations. “This is something no one foresaw three or four years ago.”

Stern did his part to damage the franchise by throwing us under the bus after the Brawl.

McKeyFan
01-28-2008, 01:12 PM
Stern did his part to damage the franchise by throwing us under the bus after the Brawl.


There is a day when I would have agreed with you.

But with all that has gone down, I now wonder if Stern was rightly exasperated with TPTB's constant enablement of disrepectful and selfish players. Heck, three years later, David Harrison's issues are just personal. No public admonishment.

Bball
01-28-2008, 01:14 PM
I don't have a problem with management making some mistakes. Putting Artest and JO together was ultimately a mistake on several levels. What did we do about it? Nothing....

Let's compare two team blowing a high draft pick:
Pistons- Darko (Team moved him before rookie contract finished)
Paces- Bender (Team waited on him, extended him, let the whole league see he was a potential bust, held onto him even longer (even thru an expansion draft (protected him)), didn't use him for the Allan Houston rule, and finally had to watch him retire.

When you make a mistake- Do something about it. You don't have to stand pat just to show the world you're ultimately smarter than everyone else (while you sit with your fingers crossed). Move on!

And that doesn't mean waiting until you HAVE to do something. Look far enough into the future to head these problems off at the pass. Addition thru subtraction... Cut your losses...

I'm sure Naptown will disagree with this but I say you listen to your fans (particularly what they are 'saying' at game with groans and boos or empty seats). You can disagree with them if you are so inclined, but that better be because your future vision is better than their's.

If you're TPTB and you're standing pat just because that's what you do... then you have no further to look than a mirror to see what is wrong with the Pacers and why there is such a strong disconnect with fans (and why it's growing).

I'll agree that you don't want to rush into a move BUT if TPTB would see the mistakes for what they are and start working on them from moment one, then there'd be no need to rush or panic.

Instead, let them fester for the whole NBA to see over YEARS and then you're painted into a corner by what HAS to happen, what other teams or willing to give for damaged merchandise to a desperate team, AND the fans who are tired of seeing the mistake(s) fester on the court.



-Bball

BillS
01-28-2008, 01:14 PM
Heck, three years later, David Harrison's issues are just personal. No public admonishment.

Not a valid comparison - even Stern can't admonish a team for something they weren't allowed to know about.

Unclebuck
01-28-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't have a problem with management making some mistakes. Putting Artest and JO together was ultimately a mistake on several levels. What did we do about it? Nothing....

Let's compare two team blowing a high draft pick:
Pistons- Darko (Team moved him before rookie contract finished)
Paces- Bender (Team waited on him, extended him, let the whole league see he was a potential bust, held onto him even longer (even thru an expansion draft (protected him)), didn't use him for the Allan Houston rule, and finally had to watch him retire.




-Bball


The only mistake was that Bender was injured. I'll go to my grave believing that if he could have been healthy, he would have been a borderline allstar at least. So I have never criticized the pacers for drafting him, and the extension was for only 4 years and was on the heels of him starting to play pretty well

Bball
01-28-2008, 02:22 PM
The only mistake was that Bender was injured.

"Other than that little issue with the gunfire, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

;)

-Bball

grace
01-30-2008, 07:13 PM
:bump:

The guy who wrote the article was on 950 this afternoon. The most interesting (and damning) thing he had to say was that usually when he'd write an article like this he'd hear from a lot of people who took exception to what he wrote. Well, in this case he didn't. He said out of the 30 some people who contacted him about the article only one person was pro Pacers.

Maybe that just means basketball fans don't read IBJ. :shrug: