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avoidingtheclowns
01-23-2008, 11:22 AM
this is about the o'neal/carter deal but i thought it deserved its own thread as he talks more about the constant mediocrity. if mods want to merge, thats fine.



Nets and Pacers, going nowhere, talking to each other
By Kelly Dwyer
Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 1:16 pm EST

This is what happens when people don't listen, and decide that sustaining a run of mediocrity is the best possible way to keep their jobs.

Indiana Pacers (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind/) boss Larry Bird, after watching his Pacers fall apart in 2004-05 and flame out in 2005-06, should have rebuilt the team in the summer of 2006.

He had Peja Stojakovic (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3119/)'s hefty contract coming off his books, he had some assets (Jamaal Tinsley (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3528/), pre-shootouts, Jermaine O'Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120/), then-overrated) that could fetch expiring contracts and young talent, and he had the goodwill of the Pacer fandom, who wouldn't possibly blame him for the melee in Auburn Hills back in 2004, or the string of injuries that resulted.

This time last season, New Jersey Nets (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/njn/) Rod Thorn should have looked at his aging Nets, stuck at .500 with little room to grow, and blown the thing up.

Should have dumped Jason Kidd (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2625/) on a desperate team looking to make one last push. Should have sent Vince Carter (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3248/) for a team looking for perimeter scoring and/or an expiring contract. Should have, if no suitors emerged for VC, passed on signing Carter last summer, or explored sign-and-trade options.

Now look at where the Nets are: 18-22, in the midst of a tough Western Conference road swing, and out of the playoffs today in spite of a 67 million dollar payroll. Vince is about to turn 31, Kidd's about to turn 35, and nobody expects much of them.

Now look at where the Pacers are: 19-23 with a 66 million dollar payroll that grows even larger next season, with little room to improve short of blowing everything up (http://www.nypost.com/seven/01202008/sports/nets/teardownnets_596768.htm?page=0), which won't be easy to do now that the bloom is off the Jamaal.

So what do the Nets and Pacers decide to do? Talk about sustaining that near-.500 turn for even longer, making it look like they're working on improving, and potentially sending (http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/13927772.html) Jermaine O'Neal to the Nets for Carter, Jamaal Magliore, and Marcus Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players?type=lastname&first=1&query=Marcus+Williams&q=Marcus+Williams).

I don't know who leaked the deal, or which team (or agent, even) would stand to gain from this move hitting the press (http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/13927772.html), because it confirms our worst fears about both teams: they really don't get it.

The Pacers would add Carter, who plays the same (wing) position as their only trio of talented youngsters (Danny Granger (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3943/), Shawne Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4145/), Mike Dunleavy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3601/) Jr.)?

The Nets still think Jermaine O'Neal, career 46 percent shooter, is the team's low-post scoring option of the future? The guy has averaged 55 games a season over the last three, he's played 33 games this year (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/SPORTS04/801210333&theme=) (15 points, seven rebounds, 2.5 blocks) while talking about sitting the rest of the season out (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/SPORTS04/801210334&theme=) ... and he's the answer?

I know it's hard to sell dwindling crowds on the idea of a rebuilding process, but these GMs need to give their fans a little credit.

There's a reason nobody is coming out to see the Pacers, or Nets. And it has little to do with Jamaal Tinsley's glock or Jason Kidd's happy hands: these fans know mediocrity. They know these have little chance of making a championship run, and have no easy chance at rebuilding with youngsters. And they don't want to witness the unraveling of two teams winning 45 percent of their games.

But Bird and Thorn don't want to hear it. Not when there's a Jamaal Magliore to sign. Mags in '08, straight to the top!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Nets-and-Pacers-going-nowhere-talking-to-each-?urn=nba,62992

Oneal07
01-23-2008, 11:58 AM
Yahoo is slow when it comes to news. they report todays news, whne they probably got the info last week, just to make it look current

jeffg-body
01-23-2008, 12:26 PM
I still like the trade if we can involve a third team to take on Carter and give us an expiring big man. Other way I like it is we can piggyback another trade with Carter and one of our young guys to get a nice player to fit our weaknesses.

Speed
01-23-2008, 12:39 PM
I've never liked VC, he's a marvel athletically which is on the fast decline. He applied himself about a season and half as far as I can tell. He's indifferent defensively and without a conscious offensively. I'd rather watch JO go of the books in 3 years to be honest.

mb221
01-23-2008, 01:21 PM
Apparently Jamaal Tinsley has been caught brandishing a Glock?

OnlyPacersLeft
01-23-2008, 01:34 PM
this is weak...we have talent why the hell we want injury prone vince?

Mourning
01-23-2008, 02:28 PM
this is weak...we have talent

Yeah, enough to just stay mediocre.... cool.... :puke:. The author is right. This is not the sort of trade we should be pursuing.

CableKC
01-23-2008, 02:32 PM
this is weak...we have talent why the hell we want injury prone vince?
Not that it's going to happen now.....but I could have seen a JONeal for VC deal as an attempt at salvaging the relatively low trade value that they have in JONeal and exchanging it for VC...who has way more trade value.

It's like when Walsh traded Artest to the Kings for Peja. Artest had little to no trade value for us and Peja ( no matter what any of our opinion of him was ) had more. Once they had a player with more trade value....that gave us some more wiggle room for future trade negotiations.

On top of that....trading for VC would have been a futile PR attempt at trying to draw in more Pacer fans to see the Vince Carter show.

Speed
01-23-2008, 02:50 PM
Does anyone know how many years VC has left, I know he just resigned. Is it a push as far as number of years? Also, isn't Marcus Williams thought to be a young Tinsley..... um........no thanks, if so.

Naptown_Seth
01-23-2008, 03:05 PM
Cable, I agree with your point but I think the Peja thing is a bad example. Post deadline an expiring contract is worthless. It was a miracle/shady that they got a TE out of the NOK deal. Maybe if no one had cap room and they wanted an S&T, but that wasn't the case with Peja. The Pacers came close to getting nothing out of it. Basically they got Troy for that TE (Jack/Dun, pick/Ike). And it took the EXTREMELY unique Harrington situation to make that happen in the second place.

But with Vince they are getting NJ closer to having money off the books while giving themselves some ability to deal in the future. It makes more sense for Indy I think because to me Vince is more of a "missing piece" that a contender might want, even if it isn't till next years deadline.

Shade
01-23-2008, 03:06 PM
Does anyone know how many years VC has left, I know he just resigned. Is it a push as far as number of years? Also, isn't Marcus Williams thought to be a young Tinsley..... um........no thanks, if so.

Carter has four more years on his deal after this one, which is two more years than JO.

Speed
01-23-2008, 03:13 PM
Carter has four more years on his deal after this one, which is two more years than JO.


Thanks Shade, so that is the main reason NJ should do it, it sounds like the Pacers approached NJ though from today NJ newspaper (see below) report talking about a Nocioni trade possiblity instead. If you trade for VC, think of a 35 yr old VC most likely not allowing you to sign Granger and S. Williams, along the way w/o going over the luxury tax. Yikes!?!?!?

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/Nets_explore_bullish_deal.html

CableKC
01-23-2008, 03:31 PM
Cable, I agree with your point but I think the Peja thing is a bad example. Post deadline an expiring contract is worthless. It was a miracle/shady that they got a TE out of the NOK deal. Maybe if no one had cap room and they wanted an S&T, but that wasn't the case with Peja. The Pacers came close to getting nothing out of it. Basically they got Troy for that TE (Jack/Dun, pick/Ike). And it took the EXTREMELY unique Harrington situation to make that happen in the second place.

But with Vince they are getting NJ closer to having money off the books while giving themselves some ability to deal in the future. It makes more sense for Indy I think because to me Vince is more of a "missing piece" that a contender might want, even if it isn't till next years deadline.
That's fine.....no matter what happened with the string of trades that led us to our current situation :banghead:.....the main point was that TPTB made "lemonade out of lemons" when it came to salvaging what little trade value that Artest had for us at the time.

OakMoses
01-23-2008, 03:31 PM
With JO's recent injury revelations, there's no way this trade will happen, but...

According to Hoopshype, the last year of Carter's contract is a team option. If that's true, his contract is only one year longer than JO's, not to mention that he's a few million dollars cheaper.

In general, I think that we you have a chance to grab a player of Carter's talent on the cheap, you do it. Every so often some star player gets moved relatively cheaply because they're a cancer or a bad human being or what not. I'm a big-time character guy, but there are some gambles worth taking. Look at Rasheed Wallace, Baron Davis, and Allen Iverson. All of these guys were traded for far less than their value because they'd warn out their welcome. None of them has caused problems in their new city, and they're all helping their teams win. Vince Carter (while I don't love him at all) has the potential to be the exact kind of player the Pacers need: a guy who can score no matter what the defense and his teammates are doing.

With this trade we'd also get Marcus Williams and Jamaal Magloire. Magloire used to be a good player, but hasn't gotten off the bench lately. If he's 3/4 of what he used to be, he's a good fit for the 5 spot on this team. He's a good interior defender and rebounder and can score a bit. If he sucks now, then he's a $4 million expiring contract.

Marcus Williams is worth taking a chance on. He's cheap and has potential. If he truly has character issues, then we don't sign him beyond his rookie deal.