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View Full Version : Pacers/Sixers Post Game 42: Living by the three



Doddage
01-21-2008, 04:40 PM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center"><td> http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nba/teams/1/80x60/ind.gif (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind) (19-23)
</td> <td width="370"> <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="ysptblbdr2"> <table class="ysptblclbg3" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="ysptblbdr2"><td colspan="15" height="1"></td></tr> <tr align="center" bgcolor="#dedec6"> <td rowspan="5" class="ysptblbdr2" width="1"></td> <td height="18" width="10"></td> <td></td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">1</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">2</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">3</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">4</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores total" align="right" width="35">Total</td> <td class="yspscores" width="65"></td> <td rowspan="5" class="ysptblbdr2" width="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="yspwhitebg"><td colspan="13" height="1"></td></tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="center"> <td height="23" width="10">http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/gr/or_arrow.gif</td> <td class="yspscores team" align="left"> Indiana (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind) </td> <td class="yspscores">32</td> <td class="yspscores">31</td> <td class="yspscores">27</td> <td class="yspscores">20</td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"> 110 </td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right">Final </td> </tr> <tr class="yspwhitebg"> <td colspan="2"></td> <td colspan="8" height="1"></td> <td colspan="2" class="ysptblclbg6"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="center"> <td height="23" width="10"></td> <td class="yspscores team" align="left"> Philadelphia (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/phi) </td> <td class="yspscores">19</td> <td class="yspscores">30</td> <td class="yspscores">30</td> <td class="yspscores">24</td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"> 103 </td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr2"> <td colspan="15" height="1"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td> http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nba/teams/1/80x60/phi.gif (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/phi) (16-26)
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="stats" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td colspan="16" class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Indiana </td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"> <td class="yspdetailttl player" align="left" height="18" width="17%"> Name</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="4%"></td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Min</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">FG</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">3Pt</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">FT</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">+/-</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Off</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Reb</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Ast</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">TO</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Stl</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BS</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BA</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">PF</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Pts </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> K. Rush (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3618)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>36:39</td> <td>10-18</td> <td>5-8</td> <td>0-2</td> <td> +12 </td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>25 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Tinsley (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3528)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>32:36</td> <td>0-3</td> <td>0-2</td> <td>2-2</td> <td> +4 </td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>12</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>2 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> T. Murphy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3524)</td> <td class="player"> C </td> <td>15:56</td> <td>4-5</td> <td>1-2</td> <td>4-4</td> <td> +19 </td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>13 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> M. Dunleavy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3601)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>43:43</td> <td>10-18</td> <td>3-6</td> <td>1-1</td> <td> +5 </td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>4</td> <td>7</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>24 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> D. Granger (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3943)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>34:29</td> <td>7-13</td> <td>2-2</td> <td>2-3</td> <td> 0 </td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>4</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>18 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Foster (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3344)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>23:07</td> <td>1-4</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>4-6</td> <td> -18 </td> <td>3</td> <td>10</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>6 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> T. Diener (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3964)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>15:24</td> <td>2-5</td> <td>2-4</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +3 </td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>6</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>6 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4145)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>14:35</td> <td>3-3</td> <td>1-1</td> <td>1-2</td> <td> +5 </td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>8 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> M. Daniels (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3764)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>14:33</td> <td>1-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -1 </td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> I. Diogu (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3935)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>8:57</td> <td>3-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +6 </td> <td>3</td> <td>4</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>6 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Graham (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4012)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> D. Harrison (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3846)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr3"> <td colspan="16" height="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Totals</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>41-79</td> <td>14-25</td> <td>14-20</td> <td></td> <td>8</td> <td>38</td> <td>35</td> <td>18</td> <td>9</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>26</td> <td>110 </td> </tr> <tr align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Percentages:</td> <td colspan="2"></td> <td>.519</td> <td>.560</td> <td>.700</td> <td></td> <td colspan="9" class="team-rebounds" align="left">Team Rebounds: 10 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="stats" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td colspan="16" class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Philadelphia </td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"> <td class="yspdetailttl player" align="left" height="18" width="17%"> Name</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="4%"></td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Min</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">FG</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">3Pt</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">FT</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">+/-</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Off</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Reb</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Ast</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">TO</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Stl</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BS</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BA</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">PF</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Pts </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> A. Miller (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3331)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>38:03</td> <td>9-17</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>3-6</td> <td> -20 </td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>5</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>21 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> W. Green (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3744)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>24:51</td> <td>3-12</td> <td>0-2</td> <td>3-4</td> <td> -18 </td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>9 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Dalembert (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3534)</td> <td class="player"> C </td> <td>32:59</td> <td>2-5</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>1-2</td> <td> -11 </td> <td>4</td> <td>13</td> <td>2</td> <td>4</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>5 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> A. Iguodala (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3826)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>40:41</td> <td>5-16</td> <td>2-7</td> <td>11-13</td> <td> -7 </td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>5</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>23 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> R. Evans (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3663)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>9:49</td> <td>1-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -4 </td> <td>1</td> <td>5</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>2 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> T. Young (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4290)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>30:10</td> <td>6-11</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>1-2</td> <td> +18 </td> <td>6</td> <td>7</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>13 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> L. Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3971)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>28:00</td> <td>5-12</td> <td>2-3</td> <td>2-6</td> <td> +13 </td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>14 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> R. Carney (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4144)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>16:16</td> <td>3-7</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-1</td> <td> -1 </td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>6 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Smith (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4298)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>12:12</td> <td>4-6</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> 0 </td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>8 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> K. Ollie (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3237)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>4:15</td> <td>1-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +1 </td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> G. Giricek (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3363)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>2:42</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -6 </td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> C. Booth (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3358)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr3"> <td colspan="16" height="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Totals</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>39-88</td> <td>4-13</td> <td>21-34</td> <td></td> <td>16</td> <td>44</td> <td>21</td> <td>14</td> <td>9</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>21</td> <td>103 </td> </tr> <tr align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Percentages:</td> <td colspan="2"></td> <td>.443</td> <td>.308</td> <td>.618</td> <td></td> <td colspan="9" class="team-rebounds" align="left">Team Rebounds: 14 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Game Info</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yspnotice"> Technical Fouls: Philadelphia - A. Miller 1</td></tr></tbody></table>

granger33
01-21-2008, 04:42 PM
Great win. K.rush player of the game.

Foster a beast as usual.

Shawne Williams did a sick dunk.

Hopefully this is the start of a nice winning stretch.

bnd45
01-21-2008, 04:44 PM
Ike came in and really sparked the Pacers today.

Foster was once again big down the stretch.

Rush continues to be a really good player.

Danny & Dunleavy continue to dominate at times and then disappear for long stretches.

Tinsley continues to play great until we get a lead and then stop pushing the ball down the stretch when we "nurse" the lead.

It might be time for Graham to take Daniels spot in the rotation.

McKeyFan
01-21-2008, 04:45 PM
Man, why did JOB let Ike off the bench?

All he did was score, dunk, rebound, and make assists.

Hopefully, JO will recover soon.

LoneGranger33
01-21-2008, 04:46 PM
Danny & Dunleavy continue to dominate at times and then disappear for long stretches.

It might be time for Graham to take Daniels spot in the rotation.

Your first point is true and highly upsetting.
Your second point is dead-on. Daniels just isn't smart with the basketball.

LoneGranger33
01-21-2008, 04:46 PM
Ike was a pleasant surprise this afternoon.

D23
01-21-2008, 04:50 PM
My favorite stat: 35 assists on 41 field goals made. I'll take a few more of those games.

Doddage
01-21-2008, 04:51 PM
I myself like that JT only attempted 3 shots. I don't care that he didn't score, he got a great assist total and he wasn't being selfish.

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 04:55 PM
Didn't most all of JT's assists come in the first half? Why the total vanishing act in quarters 3 & 4? and why are two of his only 3 field goals taken 3-pointers? I dont care he didn't get points, I don't think we need him to score much at all, but if you're going to shoot then shoot where you're strong....I also don't care if he did have 12 assists, he probably should have had more and this game should never have been close if he stays aggressive...now given i didn't watch the game on TV but i listened to the 4th quarter via nba audio/gamecasted/box score analyzed. I think he got reprimanded so he is trying to show us that he is doing the right thing right now, but honestly how long until he gets his attitude back and the sinus-poutis returns?

Also, Stephen graham was impressive last game, curious as to why he didn't get ANY floor time. What kind of thank you or reward system is that? Way to instill confidence in your players Jim.

On a brighter note...congrats...a lottery team defeated another lottery team..I will get excited when this squad is able to take down the teams that actually matter like Boston, Detroit, Orlando, and of lately The Cavs. All those teams we would play in our first round of the playoffs and all those teams would destroy us.

I've liked Kareem since the Mizzou games, I hope we keep him around for the future...unless of course he gains trade value by the all-star break muwahahaha

Isaac
01-21-2008, 04:58 PM
All he did was score, dunk, rebound, and make assists.

And foul. ;)

Ike and Shawne had 2 of the top 5 Pacers plays of the season within about a minute of each other today and both came at the expense of Jason Smith if I remember correctly.

Good game by Jamaal, great game by Jeff and Kareem. 3 games in a row is a weird thing in the NBA, it'd be nice to win one of the next two.

Ragnar
01-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Damnit I completely forgot the game was on in the afternoon. man that sucks.

LoneGranger33
01-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Hey guys, we're the 8th seed again!

Since86
01-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Is Foster's +/- stat is misprint?

How in the world can it be -18????

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 05:05 PM
Hey guys, we're the 8th seed again!

OMG, like totally! I'm psyched to be the Celtics' equivalent of the bread and butter you get at Outback before your salad comes....hot and soft, easy to chew....

Lord Helmet
01-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Nice game.

Funny hearing Mr. Boyle on the radio post-game screwing up and getting mad. :laugh:

I don't think they knew they were still on the air....

Anyone else hear that?

OnlyPacersLeft
01-21-2008, 05:21 PM
what the hell? what time did this game start? I thought the game was tonight...UHGGGGGGGGGG
oh well nice to see we won...LOL
just sucks missing a win considering there may not be a whole lot.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-21-2008, 05:25 PM
OMG, like totally! I'm psyched to be the Celtics' equivalent of the bread and butter you get at Outback before your salad comes....hot and soft, easy to chew....
you must be in the "lets tank" crowd...I think we can beat the cavs...or the celtics for that matter...or orlando! they suck! :-p

JayRedd
01-21-2008, 05:31 PM
Ike was a pleasant surprise this afternoon.

An afternoon delight even.

Arcadian
01-21-2008, 05:31 PM
Man, why did JOB let Ike off the bench?

All he did was score, dunk, rebound, and make assists.

Hopefully, JO will recover soon.

NBA: It's not about whether or not your team wins or loses--it is about how your favorites play the game.

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 05:32 PM
you must be in the "lets tank" crowd...I think we can beat the cavs...or the celtics for that matter...or orlando! they suck! :-p

HAHA yea you got me...red-handed...

I'm not crapping on others views, I just have my own opinions on things. One of those opinions is that in a 7-game series..we could not beat Cleveland, Detorit, Orlando, or Boston....maybe in a 3-game series, which doesn't exist...but I think we would be exposed for having no inside presence pretty quickly. I would hate to see us take this current line-up into a playoff matchup against the Magic...can you imagine what Dwight Howard would do to our front line? Yeeeesshh, talk about Sportscenter top 10.

mb221
01-21-2008, 06:23 PM
Just like Stephen Graham, let's see Ike put together a nice string of games and not just one pretty decent performance against a crappy frontline before crowning him the savior.

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 06:33 PM
I don't think anyone is crowning him savior, but he can't put together a string of anything unless he sees floor time.

CableKC
01-21-2008, 06:36 PM
I looked at the Box score and there were 2 things that stood out.

1 ) Murphy with +19 with 2 rebounds and then Foster with -18 with 10 rebounds.

2 ) Dunleavy with 7 turnovers.

Kofi
01-21-2008, 07:22 PM
I really like Thadeus Young from the 76ers. He's shooting over 50% for the season and looks like a very nice scorer and rebounder, and he doesn't turn 20 until June. It wouldn't surprise me if he ended up one of the 3-4 best players from this draft class. I'd seriously consider moving Granger for him.

OakMoses
01-21-2008, 07:24 PM
I looked at the Box score and there were 2 things that stood out.

1 ) Murphy with +19 with 2 rebounds and then Foster with -18 with 10 rebounds.

2 ) Dunleavy with 7 turnovers.

I had the day off and got to watch the game. That was nice. Unfortunately, I am sick as a dog and took some meds which made me doze through most of the 4th quarter.

On the Murph/Foster +/-, Murphy played well while he was in the game. Foster did his usual Foster things, except that his defense wasn't any better than Murphy's this game. Foster was on the floor for pretty much the whole time during a 16-0 Philly run in the 2nd quarter.

Ike played very well off the bench. He had a lot of energy and was very active on the boards. He looked a little lost in the defensive rotations, but what else is new, right? He also had a great pass that got somebody a layup; best pass I've ever seen him make. It was interesting to note that he played the 5 spot, rather than the four.

Rush, Granger, and Dunleavy all played very solid games.

Tinsley had, I think, 7 of his 12 assists in the first half. He had to sit quite a bit in the second half due to foul trouble. He was a great distributor today, but seemed a little disinterested like he did 2 games ago. His game was solid, but I think his recent squabbles with O'Brien have definitely affected his leadership role.

The one thing that really worries me about this new lineup is the rebounding. We got doubled up on the offensive glass today by a team that's not really known for being great rebounders.

I was dissapointed that Graham didn't get to play.

That's about all I can remember.

Isaac
01-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I would hate to see us take this current line-up into a playoff matchup against the Magic...can you imagine what Dwight Howard would do to our front line? Yeeeesshh, talk about Sportscenter top 10.

Jeff Foster defends Dwight as well as anyone in the league. Before the matchup against Orlando this year (which we won by the way) Dwight was always very much kept in check against us because of Jeff. Dwight exposes the ball too much when he gets it on the low post and Jeff slaps it out of his hands.

Bball
01-21-2008, 07:45 PM
Just like Stephen Graham, let's see Ike put together a nice string of games and not just one pretty decent performance against a crappy frontline before crowning him the savior.

That would require the coach putting them in the following game...

-Bball

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 08:00 PM
Jeff Foster defends Dwight as well as anyone in the league. Before the matchup against Orlando this year (which we won by the way) Dwight was always very much kept in check against us because of Jeff. Dwight exposes the ball too much when he gets it on the low post and Jeff slaps it out of his hands.

I would be more inclined to say Dwight played badly one game than say Jeff played him well. We all know Jeff plays "good azz defense", but in a PLAYOFF type atmosphere the fact is DHOWARD is a superstar and Jeff foster is just a 7 footer who can rebound and move his feet. On top of that, so "maybe" Jeff limits Howard to 15 points...maybe...but DH will dominate the paint on the defensive side and we will be forced to live by the three for an entire series, you can not be effective in the playoffs with ONLY a perimeter game. What happens when Jeff comes out of the game, who guards Howard then? "No one" is the answer you are looking for. What happens when Jeffs back flares up again and he's out, do we want Troy Murphy guarding him? pretty much not. Do i need to elaborate on how we would guard KG? or the all-around insid-out talent od Detroit? I would really hate to give Maxiell the series of his life against our weak interior. Sorry but this team has no real playoff aspirations.

Isaac
01-21-2008, 08:12 PM
I would be more inclined to say Dwight played badly one game than say Jeff played him well.

I think you misunderstood me. In the game we played against Orlando this year Dwight played very well against us. Before then Jeff has always contained him. I remember one game last year where just about every time Dwight touched the ball he lost it a second later due to Jeff knocking it loose.

However, the Pacers were in Chicago the next night, (I always arrive early for games here to talk to the players) and I told Jeff he had to realize that he was the one and only Dwight stopper in the league and he said he felt like Dwight had figured out how to score on him towards the end of the game and would probably dominate next time they faced each other.


Sorry but this team has no real playoff aspirations.

I agree with you, and I realize that if we make the playoffs we are almost certainly a one and done team. I just feel like young players can do a ton of growing up in the playoffs, even if it is only for 4 or 5 games. Players who play on teams that go to the playoffs mature a lot faster then players who are on lottery teams year in year out. I think Danny did almost as much growing up in the series against New Jersey his rookie year then he did during the entire regular season. I am in the minority of people that would rather see this team get swept by Boston then have a low lottery pick.

Since86
01-21-2008, 08:37 PM
On the Murph/Foster +/-, Murphy played well while he was in the game. Foster did his usual Foster things, except that his defense wasn't any better than Murphy's this game. Foster was on the floor for pretty much the whole time during a 16-0 Philly run in the 2nd quarter.

Only one other player had a negative +/- on the day, and that was Quis with a -1.

Was Jeff out there by himself during that run, or is there a little more to the situation?

It's just a very odd looking +/- line for him.

jmoney2584
01-21-2008, 09:23 PM
I think you misunderstood me. In the game we played against Orlando this year Dwight played very well against us. Before then Jeff has always contained him. I remember one game last year where just about every time Dwight touched the ball he lost it a second later due to Jeff knocking it loose.

However, the Pacers were in Chicago the next night, (I always arrive early for games here to talk to the players) and I told Jeff he had to realize that he was the one and only Dwight stopper in the league and he said he felt like Dwight had figured out how to score on him towards the end of the game and would probably dominate next time they faced each other.



I agree with you, and I realize that if we make the playoffs we are almost certainly a one and done team. I just feel like young players can do a ton of growing up in the playoffs, even if it is only for 4 or 5 games. Players who play on teams that go to the playoffs mature a lot faster then players who are on lottery teams year in year out. I think Danny did almost as much growing up in the series against New Jersey his rookie year then he did during the entire regular season. I am in the minority of people that would rather see this team get swept by Boston then have a low lottery pick.

Definitely in agreement that young players benefit and grow from playoff experience. My only problem with that THIS year is the gain in improvement for our current squad worth the possibility of not gaining any talent(s) in the draft.

Isaac
01-21-2008, 11:09 PM
Definitely in agreement that young players benefit and grow from playoff experience. My only problem with that THIS year is the gain in improvement for our current squad worth the possibility of not gaining any talent(s) in the draft.

I don't think we are going to get that much better of a player at the 11th or 12th pick then we would at the 15th or 16th pick. In fact, the guy we would have taken 11th or 12th might still be there 15th or 16th.

Having a semi-successful season that includes a trip to the playoffs and development of young players is far more important then having a terrible team that loses even more fans and demoralizes the young players we have. I want Shawne Williams, Ike Diogu, Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy etc. to go in to next year feeling like they accomplished something this year riding a wave of confidence. I don't want to come in to next year with a group of sulking guys who think our core group of talent sucks because we had such an unsucessful season.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-21-2008, 11:13 PM
I just feel like young players can do a ton of growing up in the playoffs, even if it is only for 4 or 5 games. Players who play on teams that go to the playoffs mature a lot faster then players who are on lottery teams year in year out. I am in the minority of people that would rather see this team get swept by Boston then have a low lottery pick.

I agree with this. It's why I continually harp on playoff experience. Outside of 5 guys, there's no experience at all on this team. Troy, Dun, Ike, Shawne, Owens, Travis & Graham have never been there without first buying a ticket. Granger & Harrison have 6 games a piece.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2008, 11:48 PM
Only one other player had a negative +/- on the day, and that was Quis with a -1.

Was Jeff out there by himself during that run, or is there a little more to the situation?

It's just a very odd looking +/- line for him.
I got busy and let that thread slip, but I'll get it going tomorrow so we can have some 5 mans group by group and get some idea of WTF happened to Jeff there.

jmoney2584
01-22-2008, 12:13 AM
Having a semi-successful season that includes a trip to the playoffs and development of young players is far more important then having a terrible team that loses even more fans and demoralizes the young players we have.

Depending on who you draft ;) haha yea i hear you, I really do like our young group of players, but I question whether or not they are the long-term answer. I want one to two more REALLY good young prospects to go with them. NExt, add some wiley vets and proven consistent performers. Not superstars mind you, but guys who have been around the block and you know what to expect from them night in and night out.

mb221
01-22-2008, 12:14 AM
That would require the coach putting them in the following game...

-Bball

Really makes no sense that Graham didn't even sniff the court today. What's the deal with that?

jmoney2584
01-22-2008, 12:17 AM
Really makes no sense that Graham didn't even sniff the court today. What's the deal with that?

Well technically he did, it's his pre-game ritual to get down on all fours during layup lines and actually SNIFF the logo....

Ok, fine, I'm with you...what does it say to your player when he comes out and has a hell of a performance after an entire season of riding the pine, not to get a chance to taste blood in the next outing?? Bad move on JOBs part me thinks.

Eindar
01-22-2008, 06:55 AM
I don't think we are going to get that much better of a player at the 11th or 12th pick then we would at the 15th or 16th pick. In fact, the guy we would have taken 11th or 12th might still be there 15th or 16th.



I don't agree with this part of your statement. Right now we're slotted at 17th, and if we hit a major slide, which we might once we start playing some teams with a legit inside presence, we could theoretically slide down to 10th.

The three names I recognize that we'd "miss" in those 7 slots are Chase Budinger, Chris Douglas-Roberts, and D.J. Augustin, both Sophomores or a Junior in Roberts case, all in areas of need for us. Now, every year there's a guy that slips and everyone goes "wow, why didn't he go earlier?", but there's usually only one, and we got Granger, so it's not like we're due or anything. More options are always a good thing.

Now, I'd love to get Dunleavy, Ike, and Shawne some playoff experience. But I can't really sell myself on the idea that four blowout losses to the Celtics or Pistons will be more beneficial than moving up 7 slots in the draft or whatever. If you think that series goes to 6 games or something and the games are close and we take something valuable from that, then more power to you, but I'm seeing total domination and our guys feeling like they were a team that simply didn't have a chance. I don't see our guys learning much from getting handled by a simply superior team.

Unclebuck
01-22-2008, 08:19 AM
I was able to watch the game and the Pacers offense (except when they were turning it over) was a thing of beauty. I know the title of the thread is Live by the three....of course, die by the three. True, but in this game the pacers were moving the ball extremely well, so they were getting wide open threes, and wide open shots throughout their offense. And in the second half when the Sixers really started pushing out to the 3 point shooters, the Pacers were able to drive at will.

Pacers really did look a lot like the Suns in this game.

If the Pacers get open shots they make them, but whenever they took contested shots, they missed - it really was as simple as that.

Tinsley ran the offense to perfection, his defense was poor though.

Perhaps he just looks good by comparision, but Rush is looking really, really good. I'm very surprised. It has gotten to the point that anytime he is open I want him to shoot (the only two players I felt that way with was Reggie and Mullen). Rush's defense and all around game is very surprising to me.

Fun game to watch, although the Sixers aren't very good. But you have to enjoy the wins.

Ike did look very good.

edit: I don't mean to suggest everything was rosy yesterday - the defense was really bad at times and at other times it was decent.

BoomBaby33
01-22-2008, 08:20 AM
Great win. K.rush player of the game.

Foster a beast as usual.

Shawne Williams did a sick dunk.

Hopefully this is the start of a nice winning stretch.

I think it will.

We are 7-3 w/o JO now and 10-20 with him (Really 6-3, but im counting the game where JO played 9 futile minutes at the beginning of the game, then sat out the rest of the game; Because the game was then won in the second half when JO was out).

Plus, our schedule is lightening up.

On the issue of JO sitting out the rest of the season. This may be a blessing in disguise. It will prove to the TPTB that live exists after JO, plus he can get healthy in the offseason, and like someone else said, he only has one more year left on his contract, and maybe (hopefully) it will increase his value for a trade next season (or in the off season). Maybe a big draft day trade is in store, we could move up and take EJ.

The game itself, it was nice to hear different voices on the game. The Sixers announcers were really plauding our team and the way we play. They were very good I thought. I liked seeing the Sixers throwback unis too. It reminded me of the the Dr. J days, outside of the Pacers, they were my favorite team then.

Great game Kareem - he is now officially one of my 4 favorite Pacer players. Plays great defense and can get to the rim. Exactly what we needed.

BTW - That WAS a sweet throw down by Shawne.

FireMan
01-22-2008, 01:11 PM
First live game ive seen by the pacers this season. I gotta say I was really impressed by Dunleavy. Im alright with TO's as long as he plays which such confidence. Kareem looked just like last season when he won the baltic league mvp. i think he can really turn out into a solid backup sg in this league.

As much as I love JO, i think we should pull the trigger on the nets offer. I seriously think that we cuold be among top 5 temas in the east adding Carter to our already solid backcourt.

By the way, iggy is gotta be the worst franchise player in this league. his last shots were...just wow.

NuffSaid
01-22-2008, 01:15 PM
I myself like that JT only attempted 3 shots. I don't care that he didn't score, he got a great assist total and he wasn't being selfish.
Frankly, that's what the team needs out of JT...to be the distributor not the scorer. Take the shot when you're open, but only when it's within your skill-set. Perimeter shooting just isn't what JT does best, but he can post-up his defender by backing him down in the lane for the score or get inside for the short-range jumper. Other than that, he needs to focus on passing the ball and getting everyone else involved more. He'll get his shots attempts, but I'd rather he play within his limites.

CableKC
01-22-2008, 01:40 PM
On the issue of JO sitting out the rest of the season. This may be a blessing in disguise. It will prove to the TPTB that live exists after JO, plus he can get healthy in the offseason, and like someone else said, he only has one more year left on his contract, and maybe (hopefully) it will increase his value for a trade next season (or in the off season). Maybe a big draft day trade is in store, we could move up and take EJ.
I very much doubt that TPTB will sit out the rest of the season. The problem with not playing him for the rest of the season is that no GM is going to take a risk on JONeal's knees without seeing him play.

Assuming that he is capable of playing and contributing on both ends of the court ( even if he isn't 100% ) ......the best thing is to simply let him sit out until early to mid-March so that he is as fresh as possible for a late-Playoff push. This will allow the Pacers FO to showcase him before the end of the current season to show that he is still capable of playing and that he has pretty much recovered from his injuries.

However, I still think that there is a good possiliblity that TPTB will try to play him sometime in the next 2 weeks before the trade deadline. I really think that they will try to showcase him to see what offers that they can get.

Everyone knows that JONeal is on the block.....it's just a matter of showing that he is still capable of playing at a certain level between now ( before the trade deadline ) and the end of the season so that TPTB can try to move him before the start of the draft. If JONeal thinks that he is feeling much better and can play at a good level to showcase his talents....then he will play. He himself knows that if he doesn't play for the rest of the season....there is a good chance that he will remain in a Pacer uniform until the end of 2008 ( which I don't think he wants ).

CableKC
01-22-2008, 01:46 PM
As much as I love JO, i think we should pull the trigger on the nets offer. I seriously think that we cuold be among top 5 temas in the east adding Carter to our already solid backcourt.
This isn't going to happen anymore with the report that JONeal is going to sit out between 2 weeks to the rest of the season.

CableKC
01-22-2008, 02:40 PM
Frankly, that's what the team needs out of JT...to be the distributor not the scorer. Take the shot when you're open, but only when it's within your skill-set. Perimeter shooting just isn't what JT does best, but he can post-up his defender by backing him down in the lane for the score or get inside for the short-range jumper. Other than that, he needs to focus on passing the ball and getting everyone else involved more. He'll get his shots attempts, but I'd rather he play within his limites.
Although I hate his 3pt attempts and his questionable perimeter shot-selections....I do think that it's a mistake not to involve Tinsley in the offense at all.

As you mentioned....I think that Tinsley is pretty effective ( especially against weaker PGs ) when he post up his defender or take his short-range jumpshot. As long as he ONLY takes shots that he is good at taking....then I am okay with using him as a 3rd/4th scoring option that takes between 6-10 FGA per game. There are times when he is able to take advantage of his matchups and actually be a very effective offensive weapon.

Also, I think that if he is used more on the offensive end...that JO'B adjusts WHEN he takes his shots. There are games where Tinsley does not take any shots until the 3rd/4th QTR ( like the infamous Suns game ) when the opposing team ALWAYS turns up the defensive pressure. I would prefer that IF Tinsley is used more on the offensive end ( something that I do think that he wants ), that he takes his shots in the 1st half and on an "as needed" basis during the 2nd half.

Although Tinsley is effective when he is used primarily as a "pass first" PG, I think that if Tinsley plays within his game ( which means not taking all the shots at the WRONG time ) and takes shots that he is only good at taking ( which means very little 3pt shots but more Post-up / short Jumpshots ), then he will be way more effective.

BoomBaby33
01-22-2008, 06:04 PM
I very much doubt that TPTB will sit out the rest of the season. The problem with not playing him for the rest of the season is that no GM is going to take a risk on JONeal's knees without seeing him play.

Assuming that he is capable of playing and contributing on both ends of the court ( even if he isn't 100% ) ......the best thing is to simply let him sit out until early to mid-March so that he is as fresh as possible for a late-Playoff push. This will allow the Pacers FO to showcase him before the end of the current season to show that he is still capable of playing and that he has pretty much recovered from his injuries.

However, I still think that there is a good possiliblity that TPTB will try to play him sometime in the next 2 weeks before the trade deadline. I really think that they will try to showcase him to see what offers that they can get.

Everyone knows that JONeal is on the block.....it's just a matter of showing that he is still capable of playing at a certain level between now ( before the trade deadline ) and the end of the season so that TPTB can try to move him before the start of the draft. If JONeal thinks that he is feeling much better and can play at a good level to showcase his talents....then he will play. He himself knows that if he doesn't play for the rest of the season....there is a good chance that he will remain in a Pacer uniform until the end of 2008 ( which I don't think he wants ).

It really depends on how we are playing I think. If we continue to play well without JO, I dont think TPTB is going to chance him getting hurt again. If we are still winning 65-70% of our games without him, we would be around 45-46-47 wins by the end of the season, and would put us about the 4 or the 5 seed. I think thats do-able.

Teams know how he can play, and what he can do on the court. He's a 6 time all star. If he does return, it may only be for 2 or 3 games before the trade deadline, or at the end of the season, just to prove he can still get up and down the court and stay healthy.

Lets face it, we all know JO is going to be a hard sell now. Its clear to me (and I think TPTB knows this but wont admit it) that he is in the last 2 years of his career. The only way we get rid of him now is to a team trying to make a last ditch push of their own to make the playoffs and want some inside help, or they see him as clearing payroll of the books next year. And there are not many teams in the latter category. We would have to take on more Murphy's. I dont want that.

Will Galen
01-22-2008, 07:06 PM
Its clear to me (and I think TPTB knows this but wont admit it) that he is in the last 2 years of his career.

I find nothing wrong with what you said except the above. Even if you were a doctor it wouldn't be clear, because you're not an insider.

CableKC
01-22-2008, 07:30 PM
It really depends on how we are playing I think. If we continue to play well without JO, I dont think TPTB is going to chance him getting hurt again. If we are still winning 65-70% of our games without him, we would be around 45-46-47 wins by the end of the season, and would put us about the 4 or the 5 seed. I think thats do-able.
Wow....you're really optimistic. I don't think that we can do any better then we are doing now...we're going to lose more games then we win....simply cuz our defense sucks ( especially if we continue with Small Ball ).


Teams know how he can play, and what he can do on the court. He's a 6 time all star. If he does return, it may only be for 2 or 3 games before the trade deadline, or at the end of the season, just to prove he can still get up and down the court and stay healthy.

Lets face it, we all know JO is going to be a hard sell now. Its clear to me (and I think TPTB knows this but wont admit it) that he is in the last 2 years of his career. The only way we get rid of him now is to a team trying to make a last ditch push of their own to make the playoffs and want some inside help, or they see him as clearing payroll of the books next year. And there are not many teams in the latter category. We would have to take on more Murphy's. I dont want that.
The primary purpose of showcasing him is not to show what he is capable of doing....but more to show that he is still capable of playing ( despite his recent injuries ) to prospective GMs that maybe interested in acquiring him before the 2008 Draft but hesistant because of his continuing injuries.

Assuming that he is able to play at an acceptable level, I agree that he will probably be playing again in 2 weeks ( right before the trade deadline )....but think that he won't be healthy enough to show that he's the same JONeal that we are used to seeing.

My hope is that he does come back no later then the beginning of March to help make a push for the Playoffs. Playing 2 or 3 games at the end of the season wouldn't convince me ( much less any GM ) of anything when it comes to JONeal and his injury-riddled past. A full month of play could hopefully convince GMs that he's worth rolling the dice on before the draft starts. Besides, as many have suggested.....during our playoff push....a healthy JONeal is way more beneficial to the team ( in more ways then one ) then an injured one.

If he doesn't play at all for the rest of the season, there is little chance that any GM will make a trade fo him until December of 2008. I really think that TPTB and JONeal will be aiming for a return sometime this season. It's in both of their interests to show that he hasn't become the next Chris Webber and that his trade value isn't that low before the end of the regular season.

BoomBaby33
01-23-2008, 08:38 AM
Wow....you're really optimistic. I don't think that we can do any better then we are doing now...we're going to lose more games then we win....simply cuz our defense sucks ( especially if we continue with Small Ball ).


The primary purpose of showcasing him is not to show what he is capable of doing....but more to show that he is still capable of playing ( despite his recent injuries ) to prospective GMs that maybe interested in acquiring him before the 2008 Draft but hesistant because of his continuing injuries.

Assuming that he is able to play at an acceptable level, I agree that he will probably be playing again in 2 weeks ( right before the trade deadline )....but think that he won't be healthy enough to show that he's the same JONeal that we are used to seeing.

My hope is that he does come back no later then the beginning of March to help make a push for the Playoffs. Playing 2 or 3 games at the end of the season wouldn't convince me ( much less any GM ) of anything when it comes to JONeal and his injury-riddled past. A full month of play could hopefully convince GMs that he's worth rolling the dice on before the draft starts. Besides, as many have suggested.....during our playoff push....a healthy JONeal is way more beneficial to the team ( in more ways then one ) then an injured one.

If he doesn't play at all for the rest of the season, there is little chance that any GM will make a trade fo him until December of 2008. I really think that TPTB and JONeal will be aiming for a return sometime this season. It's in both of their interests to show that he hasn't become the next Chris Webber and that his trade value isn't that low before the end of the regular season.

Optimistic or not, im referring to our record without JO in the lineup (7-3 or 70%). If our team continues to play that w/o JO (which I think they can, and it depends on whether Kareem, Danny, and DunDun can keep knocking down shots and driving the lane), thats where we would be. I'm just using history. And contrary to all the JO believers out there, its because he is out of the lineup when we play good. Look at Boston and Philly when Obie coached there successfully. Neither team had a star post presence. They had hard workers and hustlers (ala Jeff).

The problem with your idea of bringing him back right before the playoffs, is that he will destroy all the chemistry that the rest of the guys have established up till that point (including Tins believe it or not). If its up to me now, sit him out the rest of the season or try your darndest to trade him for scraps and picks before the trade deadline. But no more murphys like i said. At this point could we trade O'neal for O'neal - both are in the twilight of their careers? Heck, Miami might do it - they have lost like 12 in a row.

Will Galen - I'm not a doctor, I only play one on TV. LOL - J/K. Your right though, its not "clear", but I just dont see him lasting more than 2 years from now (as I have said for the last year or so). Look at all the games he has missed in the last 4 years. (Someone mentioned in another thread or post somewhere that he has missed 131 games in 4 years - thats 32 games a year - wowzer thats a lot) He is washed up IMO.

CableKC
01-23-2008, 01:02 PM
The problem with your idea of bringing him back right before the playoffs, is that he will destroy all the chemistry that the rest of the guys have established up till that point (including Tins believe it or not). If its up to me now, sit him out the rest of the season or try your darndest to trade him for scraps and picks before the trade deadline. But no more murphys like i said. At this point could we trade O'neal for O'neal - both are in the twilight of their careers? Heck, Miami might do it - they have lost like 12 in a row.
If ( and that's a Big "IF" ) we play as well as we do now without him for the rest of the season....wouldn't this mean that we would have to make our best effort to trade him in the offseason?

Assuming that he is as close as he can be to be healthy....this IMHO means playing him with a good month stretch to show that he is healthy ( not to show what he is capable of ) before the end of the regular season so that we can boost his trade value before the start of the draft.

Unless TPTB takes some low-ball offer ( which they won't ), playing 2 or 3 games towards the end of the season won't convince GMs of anything. If I were a GM, knowing of JONeal's injury history....I would want to see him play for an extended period of time without any real pain ( or limitations in his game ) before even considering trading for him.

BoomBaby33
01-23-2008, 01:08 PM
If ( and that's a Big "IF" ) we play as well as we do now without him for the rest of the season....wouldn't this mean that we would have to make our best effort to trade him in the offseason?

Assuming that he is as close as he can be to be healthy....this IMHO means playing him with a good month stretch to show that he is healthy ( not to show what he is capable of ) before the end of the regular season so that we can boost his trade value before the start of the draft.

Unless TPTB takes some low-ball offer ( which they won't ), playing 2 or 3 games towards the end of the season won't convince GMs of anything. If I were a GM, knowing of JONeal's injury history....I would want to see him play for an extended period of time without any real pain ( or limitations in his game ) before even considering trading for him.

Its definitely a Catch 22 situation now, no matter how you look at it, IMO.

CableKC
01-23-2008, 01:19 PM
Its definitely a Catch 22 situation now, no matter how you look at it, IMO.
I wouldn't be surprised that if we played him now, he can put together 2 or 3 good games in a row before having some breakdown. The problem is that he's injury prone...knowing this means that I have to see him play a good # of games before I am convinced that he's remotely healthy.

Believe me.....I'm totally with you when it comes to thinking that this team is likely better off without JONeal in the offense.

I'm just not convinced that any GM will roll the dice on him in the offseason ( the time that we have to move him ASSUMING that we can truly live without him ) after seeing him play 2 or 3 games towards the end of the season.