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View Full Version : What would you do?



malchow2002
01-20-2008, 02:32 AM
As far as I can see we're going to hang around .500 all year. some winning streaks and some losing. Sometimes you see glimpses of what the pacers could be and sometimes all you see is clanking on the rim.

If we stay .500 this year, make the playoffs, and lose in the first round what would you want to see done.

1.leave the roster as is, with minor tweaking
2.make a major trade for a superstar which would cost us young talent and draft picks.
3.blow up the team dump saleries, and try to compile draft picks, with trying to keep some of the young talent to start to build around(granger williams, etc) ala. Portland

Peck
01-20-2008, 02:44 AM
4. Make trades based on making a team.

Idea 1 is out of the question for me. This team as structured will go nowhere in the long run.

Option 2 while sounding good is very very very hard to do, in fact I don't believe we have the tools to do that.

Option 3 while popular is also a huge huge crapshoot. For every Portland you have an Atlanta (who while doing very well this year has sucked for almost a decade).

Getting a combination of young players and good veterans to me makes the most sense.

Other than whatever position we are going to play Granger at, either the three or four, I feel that we could use an upgrade at every position.

My first preferance would be to get a new point guard. But barring that I want a bruiser up front.

Roaming Gnome said the name Paul Millsap to me after the game and my mouth started to water. We don't have anything they would want but other than Granger I would trade anyone else on the team to get him.

But I think honestly small moves is the way we are going to have to go and pray we catch a break in the draft.

Kofi
01-20-2008, 02:54 AM
#3

The one thing Bird has proven he can do is draft well. That's really all it takes to rebuild, provided you can keep your talent from bolting when their rookie contracts are up. We've already got good role players, now we need a legit franchise player to replace the washed up J.O.; a Batman to Granger's Robin.

As for the Hawks rebuilding process, least ye forget they actually tried option #4 and failed miserably which set the team back 2-3 seasons. Glenn Robinson and Shareef Abdur-Rahim, anyone? Robinson was acquired for their 2003 pick, which ended up being T.J. Ford. And of course they acquired Shareef by giving up their 2002 1st, which is All-Star Pau Gasol. Ouch. Had they stuck to a true rebuilding instead of going for the "quick fix", they likely would've been much better off.

JayRedd
01-20-2008, 04:00 AM
More importantly, WWTDD?

Unclebuck
01-20-2008, 04:20 AM
If you are talking about in the offseason - I'm not ready to start thinking about the offseason yet. We are only 1/2 way through the season. .

Kemo
01-20-2008, 05:04 AM
I think that the sooner that Tinsley is out of a Pacers uniform , the sooner you will see a top east team come together ..

I think we have all the talent in the world to be a good team.
But with Mel Mel at the helm.. I dont see anything happening anytime soon in the vein of progression

Rajah Brown
01-20-2008, 08:05 AM
#3 isn't a bad option as long as TPTB isn't dumb enough to do what
Billy Knight did and draft SF's year after year.

BlueNGold
01-20-2008, 08:19 AM
#1 is a recipe for mediocrity.

#2 is not feasible.

#3 has partially happened. The "team" no longer exists. Hmmm. Hope the cold water 's not too much of a shock.

We now have a few overpaid semi-good players and a few young, somewhat promising players. The talent level is good enough to keep us out of the cellar, but not good enough to make the playoffs easily.

So what should we do?

One option is to ride the contracts out for a few years and try to dump salary whereever possible...while hanging onto the young talent we have. Then, we should try to pick up a free agent or two....as well as make the best picks we can. I suspect that's the brilliant plan by TPTB. Fairly boring, but represents the least risk. We might turn out to be a decent team and get back in the playoffs with some good moves.

The other option is to tank completely. Let Granger, Williams, etc. walk while hanging onto JO, Murphy and the other bad contracts. Once JO walks and we have no talent at all, we take our place at the bottom of the league. That's not palatable from some people, and I'm not sure I want to see it either. However, many teams that have contended recently or are doing well now used to be terrible: Miami, Boston, Atlanta, Toronto, Portland etc. Might be a crapshoot, but I consider it better odds than a more conservative approach if you want to be a contender...because you need to get a true superstar to build around in most instances...and teams don't hand those out...you need to pick high in the draft...

jeffg-body
01-20-2008, 02:04 PM
I like #3 option myself if there nothing done before the trade deadline.

Jose Slaughter
01-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Bird has already stated he would never blow up the team & unless we were just one step away from a champioship, #2 makes zero sence.

That leaves #1, the same thing that got us were we are today.

Gosh I miss the good old days.

Kofi
01-20-2008, 10:36 PM
Too bad Bird's stance on coaching doesn't also apply to GMing. He'd be back on the golf course in Florida if it did.

Anthem
01-20-2008, 10:39 PM
I'm with Peck. I could have written that myself, except that I wouldn't have said it as well. But I echo the sentiments exactly.

Claptonrocks
01-20-2008, 11:04 PM
I want Tinsley gone.....
I want Bird to actually do someting besides rely on some scouts on who to draft.
I want OBrien to rely on Granger and Dunny more for points and play Foster more..

Pacers4Life
01-23-2008, 03:07 PM
#1 is a recipe for mediocrity.

#2 is not feasible.

#3 has partially happened. The "team" no longer exists. Hmmm. Hope the cold water 's not too much of a shock.

We now have a few overpaid semi-good players and a few young, somewhat promising players. The talent level is good enough to keep us out of the cellar, but not good enough to make the playoffs easily.

So what should we do?

One option is to ride the contracts out for a few years and try to dump salary whereever possible...while hanging onto the young talent we have. Then, we should try to pick up a free agent or two....as well as make the best picks we can. I suspect that's the brilliant plan by TPTB. Fairly boring, but represents the least risk. We might turn out to be a decent team and get back in the playoffs with some good moves.

The other option is to tank completely. Let Granger, Williams, etc. walk while hanging onto JO, Murphy and the other bad contracts. Once JO walks and we have no talent at all, we take our place at the bottom of the league. That's not palatable from some people, and I'm not sure I want to see it either. However, many teams that have contended recently or are doing well now used to be terrible: Miami, Boston, Atlanta, Toronto, Portland etc. Might be a crapshoot, but I consider it better odds than a more conservative approach if you want to be a contender...because you need to get a true superstar to build around in most instances...and teams don't hand those out...you need to pick high in the draft...

i think we as Pacer fans would be outraged if we truly went through with this. while it may look and sound good on paper, truthfully even with high draft picks it could be years before we actually managed to do anything.

i think by far our best bet is to ride it out and stick to our guns. JO will come around (if his knee can cooperate) and if he doesn't, well he's gone in 2 years and we're in far better shape than we would be if we attempted to blow up the team.

sooooo i guess im for option #1

NuffSaid
01-23-2008, 06:12 PM
If you are talking about in the offseason - I'm not ready to start thinking about the offseason yet. We are only 1/2 way through the season. .
'Nuff Said...

BlueNGold
01-23-2008, 10:16 PM
i think we as Pacer fans would be outraged if we truly went through with this. while it may look and sound good on paper, truthfully even with high draft picks it could be years before we actually managed to do anything.

i think by far our best bet is to ride it out and stick to our guns. JO will come around (if his knee can cooperate) and if he doesn't, well he's gone in 2 years and we're in far better shape than we would be if we attempted to blow up the team.

sooooo i guess im for option #1

I certainly respect your opinion, but I think *you* as a Pacer fan would be outraged, but not *we* as Pacer fans. It's hard to say how many people would be for or against blowing up the current team...but it's not 100% either way.

As for #1, it will take a lot of minor tweaks to rise above the current level of mediocrity. Maybe after 5 more below .500 seasons with the addition of a Kareem Rush here and a Travis Diener there, we have a shot at getting in the playoffs. But even that will take good moves by management...which have been hit and miss at best.

As for contending, you can forget about it for years. Nothing in life is certain except death, taxes and that the Pacers will never again contend with JO in a Pacer uni. Granger isn't leading this team anywhere. Neither is Dunleavy. They are both good complimentary players, but fall quite short of being #1 options. The salary situation is a disaster for the next 3 years and that is likely to make resigning Foster impossible, and Granger difficult. An entirely new group will need to come in before we contend again, and that might be 10 or more years away. IMO, it will be about the time Danny Granger starts getting grey hair.

BTW, as for JO, it's best to assume he's done. We should attempt to unload his salary somehow so we can at least retain the talent we do have. Something is going to hit the fan in a year or two. Irresistable force v immovable object. This is particularly true if JO is not tradeable due to his knee. I cannot over emphasize how bad it is to this franchise's future due to JO's knee. It puts us in a position where we may be forced to sacrifice even more talent while watching him sit the rest of his contract...then walk.

So, in the end, it's likely we will be forced to go with #3 particularly if JO does not make a miraculous recovery.

Pacers4Life
01-24-2008, 03:07 AM
^^ fair enough, i shouldn't have categorized us all into the same category. but you mark my words, we will make the playoffs this year, JO will come back this year (and be effective) , AND
we'll me noticeably better next year w/o any major changes except our incoming 1st rounder

Kofi
01-24-2008, 03:45 AM
My choice would be: stop living in denial, stop standing around waiting for miracles to happen, admit the team will never go anywhere, and start over with Granger, Shawne, possibly Ike, draft picks, and hopefully cap-space. Get rid of J.O. and Tinsley and the bad vibes they've left on the team, and let's move on instead of going through the same pointless crap week after week, month after month, year after year.

BoomBaby31
01-24-2008, 04:48 AM
If we could make a replica of what Portland did in the offseason last year, we'd be perfect.

indygeezer
01-24-2008, 08:06 AM
Start with new management and go from there.


BTW.....as I've said before...........Welcome to the 80's.
Where it's Deja Vu all over again.

BillS
01-24-2008, 08:06 AM
As a further example of the evil nature of this season, I am agreeing with Peck.

We don't have anywhere near the foundation to take advantage of a single superstar player, especially since we'd be giving away most of it in any trade. You can't tweak a black hole. Blowing up the team depends on luck (getting the #1 pick, getting a pick who won't be injured/stupid, having that pick fit the pieces already assembled).

The teams of the late 90's were built piece-by-piece. It took many years to get to the place where the right coach was the final ingredient and a little tweaking took care of business. Even then, there were holes that ultimately kept us from reaching the top. You have to begin by getting a team filled with solid back-up players before you can package some of them for a starter. If you are lucky you can build starters from those back-ups, but it depends on the players and coaches having the talent to do so.

We need to seriously examine:

- what kind of team we want to be
- what current players fit that and will continue to fit that for at least 5 years
- what current players will fill roles that make sense no matter what the style
- what type of players we need to go for
- who is left that should be cast aside or traded if possible.

Will TPTB do this? Who knows?

tdubb03
01-24-2008, 10:45 AM
This is just a passing thought, but with the Simons reaching closer to retirement, could a Packers situation work in the NBA (the Pacers specifically)?

I don't know the specifics, but the city of Green Bay (maybe the county it's in?) owns the Packers. Indiana is just as passionate about basketball as GB is football.

d_c
01-24-2008, 10:58 AM
This is just a passing thought, but with the Simons reaching closer to retirement, could a Packers situation work in the NBA (the Pacers specifically)?

I don't know the specifics, but the city of Green Bay (maybe the county it's in?) owns the Packers. Indiana is just as passionate about basketball as GB is football.

The city (as in the city government) doesn't own the team.

The Packers are just a "publicly" owned company in that they are owned by a bunch of shareholders who bought stock in the team, but there is a limit to the amount of stock one person can buy. Basically, they're a corporation with no single person having majority control

They're the only franchise in American sports run that way. If I had to guess, the Simons will probably make a bigger profit selling to someone else or they might just want to hand the operations of the franchise on to their children.

Most sports team owners are in it for the thrill of owning a pro sports team. If the Simons ever wanted to sell, I'm sure there would be several groups of rich investors immediately interested in buying from them. The Packers' situation is truly unique and the way their franchise "ownership" is structured was established long ago. I doubt we'll ever see something like that in this country again.

Shade
01-24-2008, 11:16 AM
Do whatever it takes to get Eric Gordon, and rebuild from there.

Shade
01-24-2008, 11:19 AM
i think we as Pacer fans would be outraged if we truly went through with this. while it may look and sound good on paper, truthfully even with high draft picks it could be years before we actually managed to do anything.

How is that any different from what we're doing right now?

naptownmenace
01-24-2008, 12:21 PM
I want Tinsley gone.....
I want Bird to actually do someting besides rely on some scouts on who to draft.
I want OBrien to rely on Granger and Dunny more for points and play Foster more..

I agree. Let's see if we can pry Delonte West and filler from Seattle for Tinsley and see if we can clear out the glut of swingmen.

I think Danny, Dunn Jr., Shawne, and Rush are guys that should be built around. We should just plug in a more athletic PG and an upgrade at C through the draft or via free agency. If we have to trade one of those guys to get that PG or C, Dunleavy probably would be the guy I'd use.

I don't think this team is as far off as others do. Bird actually did a good job of picking up decent roleplayers last summer. It's our major payroll "franchise" guys that are struggling. JO, Tinsley, and Troy have flashes of brilliance but aren't consistent enough guys to be fill the 2 most important positions on the team.

If we can "fix" those two main areas this team could be good with the core of Granger, Shawne, Rush, Dunleavy, and our young role players.

d_c
01-24-2008, 12:51 PM
Do whatever it takes to get Eric Gordon, and rebuild from there.

The Pacers are currently in the playoff hunt (in fact they're the 8th seed right now). You're going to need to lose more if you want to get Eric Gordon. A lot more.

And no, the #12-15 pick + Shawne Williams + Ike won't get you Gordon.

Speed
01-24-2008, 12:57 PM
Do whatever it takes to get Eric Gordon, and rebuild from there.


Exactly, everything is on the table, imho, to try to get this option. Sadly, "everything" probably still isn't enough.

d_c
01-24-2008, 01:16 PM
I agree. Let's see if we can pry Delonte West and filler from Seattle for Tinsley and see if we can clear out the glut of swingmen.


Seattle is a rebuilding team. Tinsley is a middle aged player with deal that still runs another 3.5 years and they're probably wise enough to know that he'd be a pretty disgruntled guy being on a rebuilding team that doesn't even know what city it's going to play in.

He makes no sense for their plans.

Shade
01-24-2008, 01:21 PM
The Pacers are currently in the playoff hunt (in fact they're the 8th seed right now). You're going to need to lose more if you want to get Eric Gordon. A lot more.

And no, the #12-15 pick + Shawne Williams + Ike won't get you Gordon.

You know what's weird? Whenever I see the Pacers play, I root like hell for them to win. But when they don't, I almost become empathetic because I know we're a little closer to a better draft pick.

I'd MUCH rather play our youngsters and take what comes than try to squeak into the playoffs just to get demolished and end up with another average draft pick. Especially in next year's guard-laden draft.

Hell, I'd do this year's first rounder, Granger, and JO for Gordon and a bad contract.

d_c
01-24-2008, 01:34 PM
You know what's weird? Whenever I see the Pacers play, I root like hell for them to win. But when they don't, I almost become empathetic because I know we're a little closer to a better draft pick.

I'd MUCH rather play our youngsters and take what comes than try to squeak into the playoffs just to get demolished and end up with another average draft pick. Especially in next year's guard-laden draft.

Hell, I'd do this year's first rounder, Granger, and JO for Gordon and a bad contract.

Been there and know the experience. I wanted the Warriors to get better draft positioning all the way into March until they started making their run. By then, it was too late to turn back. It was playoffs or bust and they were seriously in danger (a couple years away) from breaking/matching the Clippers' record of consecutive years missing the playoffs. They had to go for it.

But it's always a tough situation. I know all about the lottery. In general, teams that are in the running for a high pick generally start off bad from the get go. Right now, there are simply too many teams with a huge head start on the lotto. There are some pretty bad teams (TWolves, Sonics) out there along with many teams that have really not come close to meeting expectations (Miami, Chicago, NJ). You also have to hope for as many top prospects to come out at once.

Lastly, Gordon is a damn fine, well rounded player. But he's an undersized SG. Unless he's Kobe or Wade, you may not want to sell the entire farm for a guy who's position is plentiful in this league.

Pacers4Life
01-24-2008, 02:12 PM
[quote=naptownmenace;647233]I agree. Let's see if we can pry Delonte West and filler from Seattle for Tinsley and see if we can clear out the glut of swingmen.


omg, how i missed this post...i want Delonte west so bad its sickening. I have wanted him in a Pacer's uni for prolly ovver a year now, just never voiced it openly. I don't think theres any chance we get him but it would make me the happiest man on the planet if we did.

Pacers4Life
01-24-2008, 02:18 PM
How is that any different from what we're doing right now?

I have yet to lose the faith and don't feel any changes are necessary or even doable at this point; none that i can see helping us anyways. we're trying to get vince carter cuz thats all we can get and that just would not do a damn thing. Ride it out until JO gets better or his contract is up, whichever comes first

LuckyMcPhearson
01-24-2008, 10:39 PM
If the goal is to win a championship then #3 is the only option.

You need at least two stars and some depth. That's not going to happen via trades and drafting in the late lottery or making minor changes.

Sure you risk becoming Atlanta but at least the draft gives smaller market teams a chance at landing a franchise player or two. You just have to trust that Bird is smarter then making some of the stupid trades the Hawks have. Not to mention passing on Paul and Derron Williams for Marvin Williams or Sheldon Williams over Roy and Gay.

Portland has already been mentioned but what about the Spurs? Duncan, Parker and Ginobili have been the back bone of their championship teams and all were drafted. I know Parker and Ginobili were late round picks but Duncan is the franchise player that they built on.

The most difficult part of becoming a contender is landing the franchise player(s). Filling out the roster with vet's once this is done is the easy part.

If just being good enough to make the playoffs is the goal then I'd go with option 1.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-24-2008, 11:34 PM
hang around 500.? lol with this team? you got some high goals for the season!
I'd trade dunleavy out of here. Hate to say it but get w/e you can for JO and Tinsley...and start over...
Losing sucks...Keep granger and blow the rest of it up!

Kofi
01-24-2008, 11:52 PM
Been there and know the experience. I wanted the Warriors to get better draft positioning all the way into March until they started making their run. By then, it was too late to turn back. It was playoffs or bust and they were seriously in danger (a couple years away) from breaking/matching the Clippers' record of consecutive years missing the playoffs. They had to go for it.

But it's always a tough situation. I know all about the lottery. In general, teams that are in the running for a high pick generally start off bad from the get go. Right now, there are simply too many teams with a huge head start on the lotto. There are some pretty bad teams (TWolves, Sonics) out there along with many teams that have really not come close to meeting expectations (Miami, Chicago, NJ). You also have to hope for as many top prospects to come out at once.

Lastly, Gordon is a damn fine, well rounded player. But he's an undersized SG. Unless he's Kobe or Wade, you may not want to sell the entire farm for a guy who's position is plentiful in this league.

The Pacers are currently at 11th, but only 4.5 games out of 5th. A bottom-3 record is out of the question, sure, but bottom-5 is not. And a bottom-5 team has a pretty decent shot at moving up via the lottery. And with that said, even if Gordon comes out, there's no guarantee he's a top-3 pick. Like you said, he's undersized and plays a position a lot of teams are well off at. He could be available in 5-8 range. And it's not like it's Gordon or Bust. There will almost certainly be multiple future All-Star's available from where the Pacers select. It's up to management to make the right pick, something all of these perpetually losing teams rarely do (a la the Warriors during their hilarious playoff drought).

LoneGranger33
01-24-2008, 11:58 PM
I would fire everyone, starting with the trainers and ending with the players. Buy out everyone. Expansion draft it next season.