PDA

View Full Version : Kings/Pacers Post Game 41: Pacers come up short



Doddage
01-19-2008, 09:27 PM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center"><td> http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nba/teams/1/80x60/sac.gif (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sac) (17-22)
</td> <td width="370"> <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="ysptblbdr2"> <table class="ysptblclbg3" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="ysptblbdr2"><td colspan="15" height="1"></td></tr> <tr align="center" bgcolor="#dedec6"> <td rowspan="5" class="ysptblbdr2" width="1"></td> <td height="18" width="10"></td> <td></td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">1</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">2</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">3</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores" width="25">4</td> <td rowspan="5" class="yspwhitebg" width="1"></td> <td class="yspscores total" align="right" width="35">Total</td> <td class="yspscores" width="65"></td> <td rowspan="5" class="ysptblbdr2" width="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="yspwhitebg"><td colspan="13" height="1"></td></tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="center"> <td height="23" width="10">http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/gr/or_arrow.gif</td> <td class="yspscores team" align="left"> Sacramento (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sac) </td> <td class="yspscores">27</td> <td class="yspscores">21</td> <td class="yspscores">30</td> <td class="yspscores">32</td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"> 110 </td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right">Final </td> </tr> <tr class="yspwhitebg"> <td colspan="2"></td> <td colspan="8" height="1"></td> <td colspan="2" class="ysptblclbg6"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="center"> <td height="23" width="10"></td> <td class="yspscores team" align="left"> Indiana (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind) </td> <td class="yspscores">22</td> <td class="yspscores">20</td> <td class="yspscores">27</td> <td class="yspscores">35</td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"> 104 </td> <td class="ysptblclbg6 total" align="right"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr2"> <td colspan="15" height="1"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td> http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nba/teams/1/80x60/ind.gif (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind) (18-23)
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="stats" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td colspan="16" class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Sacramento </td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"> <td class="yspdetailttl player" align="left" height="18" width="17%"> Name</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="4%"></td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Min</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">FG</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">3Pt</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">FT</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">+/-</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Off</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Reb</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Ast</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">TO</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Stl</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BS</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BA</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">PF</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Pts </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Salmons (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3624)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>23:45</td> <td>2-4</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +2 </td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>4</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> B. Udrih (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3845)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>23:22</td> <td>7-9</td> <td>3-4</td> <td>3-3</td> <td> +10 </td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>20 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> B. Miller (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3305)</td> <td class="player"> C </td> <td>40:06</td> <td>2-7</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>7-7</td> <td> +7 </td> <td>2</td> <td>16</td> <td>2</td> <td>4</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>3</td> <td>11 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> K. Martin (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3843)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>41:18</td> <td>6-14</td> <td>1-4</td> <td>7-8</td> <td> +5 </td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>5</td> <td>20 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> M. Moore (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3308)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>31:44</td> <td>9-12</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>4-4</td> <td> +7 </td> <td>3</td> <td>11</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>5</td> <td>22 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> R. Artest (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3339)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>35:17</td> <td>5-14</td> <td>3-7</td> <td>2-2</td> <td> 0 </td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>3</td> <td>6</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>15 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> M. Bibby (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3245)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>30:16</td> <td>3-12</td> <td>2-3</td> <td>3-4</td> <td> -3 </td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>4</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>11 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> F. Garcia (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3949)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>11:57</td> <td>3-6</td> <td>1-2</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +1 </td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>7 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> D. Jones (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3723)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>1:52</td> <td>0-2</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +3 </td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> Q. Douby (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4147)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>0:22</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -2 </td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Hawes (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4288)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> K. Thomas (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3345)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr3"> <td colspan="16" height="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Totals</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>37-80</td> <td>10-20</td> <td>26-28</td> <td></td> <td>6</td> <td>44</td> <td>20</td> <td>22</td> <td>11</td> <td>4</td> <td>3</td> <td>23</td> <td>110 </td> </tr> <tr align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Percentages:</td> <td colspan="2"></td> <td>.462</td> <td>.500</td> <td>.929</td> <td></td> <td colspan="9" class="team-rebounds" align="left">Team Rebounds: 8 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="stats" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td colspan="16" class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Indiana </td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"> <td class="yspdetailttl player" align="left" height="18" width="17%"> Name</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="4%"></td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Min</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">FG</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">3Pt</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">FT</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="6%">+/-</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Off</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Reb</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Ast</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">TO</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">Stl</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BS</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">BA</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="5%">PF</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" width="7%">Pts </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Tinsley (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3528)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>35:43</td> <td>2-6</td> <td>0-2</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> 0 </td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>13</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> K. Rush (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3618)</td> <td class="player"> G </td> <td>30:19</td> <td>10-17</td> <td>2-6</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -10 </td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>22 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> T. Murphy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3524)</td> <td class="player"> C </td> <td>26:00</td> <td>1-9</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>1-2</td> <td> -9 </td> <td>2</td> <td>9</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>3 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> D. Granger (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3943)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>39:23</td> <td>7-18</td> <td>3-7</td> <td>9-10</td> <td> +1 </td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>4</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>6</td> <td>26 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> M. Dunleavy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3601)</td> <td class="player"> F </td> <td>37:53</td> <td>5-16</td> <td>2-7</td> <td>3-4</td> <td> -19 </td> <td>1</td> <td>7</td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>15 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> J. Foster (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3344)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>25:02</td> <td>4-8</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>3-5</td> <td> -2 </td> <td>8</td> <td>11</td> <td>5</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>11 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Graham (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4012)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>17:53</td> <td>7-11</td> <td>1-3</td> <td>0-1</td> <td> +4 </td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>15 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> S. Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4145)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>15:28</td> <td>2-4</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> +11 </td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>4</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> T. Diener (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3964)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td>12:17</td> <td>2-5</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td> -6 </td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>0</td> <td>1</td> <td>4 </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> I. Diogu (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3935)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> D. Harrison (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3846)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="player" align="left"> A. Owens (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4048)</td> <td class="player"> </td> <td class="dnp" colspan="14" align="center">DNP - Coach's Decision</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblbdr3"> <td colspan="16" height="1"></td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblclbg5" align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Totals</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>40-94</td> <td>8-28</td> <td>16-22</td> <td></td> <td>13</td> <td>44</td> <td>26</td> <td>15</td> <td>10</td> <td>3</td> <td>4</td> <td>22</td> <td>104 </td> </tr> <tr align="right"> <td class="sum" align="left" height="18"> Percentages:</td> <td colspan="2"></td> <td>.426</td> <td>.286</td> <td>.727</td> <td></td> <td colspan="9" class="team-rebounds" align="left">Team Rebounds: 9 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="7"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="yspsctbg"> <td class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> Game Info</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yspnotice"> Technical Fouls: None</td></tr></tbody></table>

Cobol Sam
01-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Welcome Stephen Graham.

tora tora
01-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Start Jeff Foster, problem solved. Nice stats for Murphy. :rolleyes:

Kofi
01-19-2008, 09:31 PM
Very pleased with the loss. It's sad when you have to root for your team to lose in order to have hope for the future, but that's the position we're currently in.

LoneGranger33
01-19-2008, 09:32 PM
No one pulls off the 1 of 9, 9 rebounds performance quite like Troy Murphy.

CableKC
01-19-2008, 09:38 PM
I mentioned this in the Game thread...and in the previous Game threads since we went with Small Ball.....but if Foster and Murphy are our Big Man on the court defending the paint.....teams are just going to wear us down inside the paint ( like what Mikki Moore was doing ) or continually drive to the hoop ( like what the rest of the Kings were doing at the end of the game ).

Be forewarned.......the price that we have to pay for trading JONeal and moving on is poor interior defense. Before........our defense was based off of pushing the ball outside and forcing them to beat us from the outside. With 2 Big Men in the lineup...we were somewhat good at doing that....but with this Small Ball lineup....we're not that good at it. The end-result? Big Men that can't score beyond 6 feet but can dunk the ball will have career nights against us. Mark my words....when we play the Bucks and Bulls this upcoming week......Bogut and Big Ben are going to have career nights against us.

On a bright note, Stephen Graham showed us that he can actually play. I find it funny that the Pacers Play-By-Play guys mentioned that his defense may have been one of the reasons why he didn't play that much in the 4th. I thought to myself that his defense can't be any worse then anyone else's defense out there.

Unclebuck
01-19-2008, 09:39 PM
Poor, poor defense by the Pacers pretty much all night except for about a 4 minute stretch of the 4th quarter when the Pacers got back into it.

O'Brien was as upset as I've seen him all season.

Bad game tonight for the Pacers.

I hesitate to call out one player defensively, but I will. Tinsley's defense tonight was disgusting to me. Every replay that showed a Kings perimeter player beating his man was usually because of poor effort by Tinsley. He never steps into the path of the driver, he half-heartedly reaches and tries aimlessly to get a steal. There were probably 5 or 6 classic examples of it tonight

Unclebuck
01-19-2008, 09:41 PM
O'Brien in his post-game press conference looks sick to his stomach.

indyman37
01-19-2008, 10:06 PM
I hate you and I hope you fall down a deep well where there is a skeleton and its hand touches your thigh at the EXACT SAME MOMENT a loud startling noise occurs. And then the whole county gets together and tries to come up with ideas of how to get you out without unleashing the skeleton upon the townsfolk, but in the end no one has any ideas and then you are forced to live with a skeleton in a well for the rest of your miserable life.

Go Pacers.
wow. and i thought some of the things i've told people were cruel and unusual.

didn't get to follow the game tonight, but it seems like Rush is really flourishing in this new lineup.

Bball
01-19-2008, 10:09 PM
I can't really enjoy a game where Tinsley is playing. And I'm perfectly fine with JO missing a game.

So with that preface... There were certainly some defensive lapses but I don't think having JO would've made any difference.

Well, it would've on offense... it would've meant Graham wouldn't have played and even if he would've, JO would've been clogging the paint and we'd all be talking about how worthless Graham is.

It's fun to watch a player like Graham have a night like he had. I can enjoy something like that win or lose.

But I can't enjoy watching Tinsley on the floor. I watch in anticipation for him to go to the bench. I don't get angry much any more with him still here. I'm numb to it unless we get a replay of the Phoenix game.

As long as Tinsley is here, and JO to some degree, I'm NOT going to get emotionally attached to this team. It's not worth it.

-Bball

Ownagedood
01-19-2008, 10:13 PM
I hate you and I hope you fall down a deep well where there is a skeleton and its hand touches your thigh at the EXACT SAME MOMENT a loud startling noise occurs. And then the whole county gets together and tries to come up with ideas of how to get you out without unleashing the skeleton upon the townsfolk, but in the end no one has any ideas and then you are forced to live with a skeleton in a well for the rest of your miserable life.

Go Pacers.
AHAHAHAHA.. I love that elaborate and well thought out story just to attack someone on their thinking. Nice. :cool:

EDIT: But I really enjoyed Stephen Graham's performance out there tonight. He showed he has what it takes to be a regular rotation stud if he keeps it up. Could be like a Manu Ginobli if he is always like this..

Trade JO and Tinsley and we get much better.. Trade them in a package for the #1 pick in the draft and someone. Get the #1 pick and draft E. Gordon out of IU!

Bball
01-19-2008, 10:24 PM
AHAHAHAHA.. I love that elaborate and well thought out story just to attack someone on their thinking. Nice. :cool:

EDIT: But I really enjoyed Stephen Graham's performance out there tonight. He showed he has what it takes to be a regular rotation stud if he keeps it up. Could be like a Manu Ginobli if he is always like this..

Trade JO and Tinsley and we get much better.. Trade them in a package for the #1 pick in the draft and someone. Get the #1 pick and draft E. Gordon out of IU!

We'd be lucky to get the #1 pick... in the second round... for Tins and JO.

-Bball

mb221
01-19-2008, 10:26 PM
I can't really enjoy a game where Tinsley is playing. And I'm perfectly fine with JO missing a game.

So with that preface... There were certainly some defensive lapses but I don't think having JO would've made any difference.

Well, it would've on offense... it would've meant Graham wouldn't have played and even if he would've, JO would've been clogging the paint and we'd all be talking about how worthless Graham is.

It's fun to watch a player like Graham have a night like he had. I can enjoy something like that win or lose.

But I can't enjoy watching Tinsley on the floor. I watch in anticipation for him to go to the bench. I don't get angry much any more with him still here. I'm numb to it unless we get a replay of the Phoenix game.

As long as Tinsley is here, and JO to some degree, I'm NOT going to get emotionally attached to this team. It's not worth it.

-Bball


Yeah, I'll tell you what... 13 assists ZERO turnovers... absolutely despicable play.

Ownagedood
01-19-2008, 10:29 PM
Roderick Wilmont!!! I miss that guy.. But hey, we got Gordon now..

And I agree with you.. People are way too hard on Tinsley.. I don't really like him, but he doesn't deserve all the talk that people say he is the reason we lose.. He does nothing wrong half the time.. Besides, it's a team game, basically Tinsley's job is to assist other people to score.. Obviously he got the job done, again.

Don't make Tinsley the scapegoat.. There are many to blame on different occasions..

croz24
01-19-2008, 10:31 PM
YES!!!!!! one loss closer to a top 10 draft pick...now just trade foster for a 1st, jo for a team's junk and a 1st, and granger for a nice young player and a 1st and we're set!!!

Bball
01-19-2008, 10:37 PM
Roderick Wilmont!!! I miss that guy.. But hey, we got Gordon now..

And I agree with you.. People are way too hard on Tinsley.. I don't really like him, but he doesn't deserve all the talk that people say he is the reason we lose.. He does nothing wrong half the time.. Besides, it's a team game, basically Tinsley's job is to assist other people to score.. Obviously he got the job done, again.

Don't make Tinsley the scapegoat.. There are many to blame on different occasions..

You are right... It's a team game. There is also defense to be played.

Tinsley is not the reason we lose... He's the reason we'll never go anywhere as long as he's here.

-Bball

mb221
01-19-2008, 10:37 PM
YES!!!!!! one loss closer to a top 10 draft pick...now just trade foster for a 1st, jo for a team's junk and a 1st, and granger for a nice young player and a 1st and we're set!!!

Set for what exactly?

kester99
01-19-2008, 10:40 PM
Set for what exactly?

The continuing lottery...where you get to see whether it's only 2 or maybe 4 years before you get back to the playoffs.

croz24
01-19-2008, 10:40 PM
set for a promising future so long as lb doesn't F the draft up...

croz24
01-19-2008, 10:42 PM
do any of you honestly believe this team is going somewhere with guys like jo, tinsley, murphy, dunleavy, diener, graham, rush, harrison, owens??? yea, didn't think so...

Ownagedood
01-19-2008, 10:43 PM
You are right... It's a team game. There is also defense to be played.

Tinsley is not the reason we lose... He's the reason we'll never go anywhere as long as he's here.

-Bball
How about the guys down low?? They let Mikki Moore go off on us when the last couple games he couldn't even get in double digits. They were letting guys score all over the place down there. Yes, it's not all their fault, but that is their area, they are supposed to stop people that run down there.

mb221
01-19-2008, 10:45 PM
do any of you honestly believe this team is going somewhere with guys like jo, tinsley, murphy, dunleavy, diener, graham, rush, harrison, owens??? yea, didn't think so...


YES!!!!!! one loss closer to a top 10 draft pick...now just trade foster for a 1st, jo for a team's junk and a 1st, and granger for a nice young player and a 1st and we're set!!!

Do you honestly believe they would be going anywhere with what you just described we would receive for what we are giving away? Didn't think so lol......

kester99
01-19-2008, 10:48 PM
do any of you honestly believe this team is going somewhere with guys like jo, tinsley, murphy, dunleavy, diener, graham, rush, harrison, owens??? yea, didn't think so...

You didn't give much time for a reply there.

It doesn't matter to me whether we had the worst 12 players in the NBA active. I would still root for a win today, rather than a throw of the lottery dice. IF we suck so bad that we make the lottery, then that's what will happen. That's the way it works. In the meantime, I root for every win, because I root FOR the Pacers, not against them.

Trader Joe
01-19-2008, 10:53 PM
I think Rush just got caught out of position again on defense and then tried to recover only to go flying through the air as soon as (insert Kings perimeter player here...) put up a pump fake...

Seriously the guy is coming along offensively, but his defense is still putrid. I don't know what some of you see in him defensively, but he was beyond bad tonight. As was Tinsley.

Isaac
01-19-2008, 10:56 PM
YES!!!!!! one loss closer to a top 10 draft pick...now just trade foster for a 1st, jo for a team's junk and a 1st, and granger for a nice young player and a 1st and we're set!!!

:mad: Go somewhere else with this crap.

Jeff Foster is far and away my favorite Pacer right now. I was really hoping we'd start him with the small lineup instead of Murphy, and when I saw that Murph was starting I said to my brother that the Pacers would probably fall behind 10-0 to start the game, I was almost on the money.

I said about 2 weeks ago that Kareem was becoming consistent, and now he's taken it to a level that I didn't realize was possible. This is the type of player everyone hoped Kareem would be when he was at Missouri. He plays under control, has an outstanding stroke and can score around the rim effectively when teams close out too fast on him after hitting a couple threes. If he can continue to play this way we'll be just fine. If Dunleavy or Murph had a decent game tonight we win despite playing very poorly defensively.

We saw how poor our interior defense is without Jermaine tonight though. If we move Jermaine before the trade deadline, we need to get a banger somewhere along the line. Mikki Moore should have never had as many dunks as he had tonight. It was a poor defensive effort tonight, but we've had 4 pretty good defensive outings in a row before this one I've thought, so I'm looking forward to how they respond on this roadtrip.

LoneGranger33
01-19-2008, 11:19 PM
So so so disappointed.

CableKC
01-19-2008, 11:25 PM
We saw how poor our interior defense is without Jermaine tonight though. If we move Jermaine before the trade deadline, we need to get a banger somewhere along the line. Mikki Moore should have never had as many dunks as he had tonight. It was a poor defensive effort tonight, but we've had 4 pretty good defensive outings in a row before this one I've thought, so I'm looking forward to how they respond on this roadtrip.
To tell you the truth....I don't think that JONeal would have made a difference.

I really think that with our lineup, poor interior defense is going to be a by-product of playing Small Ball. JONeal would have made more of a difference then Foster or Murphy manning the paint....but I don't think that it would have made enough of a difference in the end.

We simply do not have the type of Big Man that is strong and good enough to rebound, defend and control the paint on a regular basis. If we have a younger version of JONeal that could take the abuse in the paint, had the jumps to efficiently score in the paint, rebound consistently and the hops to block the ball....then we would be okay. The problem is that we don't.

Small ball will work against smaller teams that don't have that great of a Frontline.....but against teams that have Bigger players with a somewhat decent Low-Post game.........this is what we will continue to see.

Kofi
01-19-2008, 11:30 PM
You didn't give much time for a reply there.

It doesn't matter to me whether we had the worst 12 players in the NBA active. I would still root for a win today, rather than a throw of the lottery dice. IF we suck so bad that we make the lottery, then that's what will happen. That's the way it works. In the meantime, I root for every win, because I root FOR the Pacers, not against them.

Rooting to get a high lottery pick isn't rooting against the team. It's realizing the team doesn't have the necessary talent to compete at a high level, and being willing to sacrafice the now for the future. You may not agree with the logic, but to imply that it doesn't make one a "true' fan of the team is ridiculous. We all want the same thing - for the Pacers to become a fun, contending team again. It's just some of us have foresight and understanding and some of us don't.

piksi
01-19-2008, 11:30 PM
To tell you the truth....I don't think that JONeal would have made a difference.



With JO playing at any capacity - Mikki would have been Mikki tonight instead if Tim Duncan.

Cobol Sam
01-19-2008, 11:35 PM
With JO playing at any capacity - Mikki would have been Mikki tonight instead if Tim Duncan.

I agree with you on this point. But JO would have to play more like a role player and not change the entire style of the game with his presence to have that be worth it in my opinion.

kester99
01-19-2008, 11:38 PM
Rooting to get a high lottery pick isn't rooting against the team. It's realizing the team doesn't have the necessary talent to compete at a high level, and being willing to sacrafice the now for the future. You may not agree with the logic, but to imply that it doesn't make one a "true' fan of the team is ridiculous. We all want the same thing - for the Pacers to become a fun, contending team again. It's just some of us have foresight and understanding and some of us don't.

But, as I said, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. What do you do in the meantime? How do you spend your time? Nothing you or I do is going to affect whether this team gets a certain lottery pick or not. Do you understand that part?

SO, personally, I choose to root for the pacers to win the game they're playing on any given night. If I had more foresight and understanding, I'd root for the loss? Would that affect the outcome of the game? No. Would it affect me? Yes. That's pretty much the only thing it would affect.

Isaac
01-19-2008, 11:43 PM
Not to mention the fact that plenty of impact/star players get drafted in the middle of the first round, or that many teams are in the lottery for many years because so many players are hit or miss, or that there are other ways of improving a team outside of high draft picks... etc.

The fact of the matter is that if you can watch a game before the halfway point of the season and honestly root for the other team to beat the Pacers, then you should not watch the game, and you are not a Pacers fan. Maybe at the end of the year when 1 or 2 losses moves you up a spot and the playoffs are out of question, but this early in the year is just stupid and childish to root against your favorite team and then go on a message board and talk about how happy you are that your team just lost. Spend your time elsewhere.

d_c
01-19-2008, 11:52 PM
Rooting to get a high lottery pick isn't rooting against the team. It's realizing the team doesn't have the necessary talent to compete at a high level, and being willing to sacrafice the now for the future. You may not agree with the logic, but to imply that it doesn't make one a "true' fan of the team is ridiculous. We all want the same thing - for the Pacers to become a fun, contending team again. It's just some of us have foresight and understanding and some of us don't.

The problem with rooting for a high lotto pick is that too many teams have had WAY TOO big of a head start on you for those privileeges.

Kofi
01-19-2008, 11:58 PM
Not to mention the fact that plenty of impact/star players get drafted in the middle of the first round, or that many teams are in the lottery for many years because so many players are hit or miss, or that there are other ways of improving a team outside of high draft picks... etc.

The fact of the matter is that if you can watch a game before the halfway point of the season and honestly root for the other team to beat the Pacers, then you should not watch the game, and you are not a Pacers fan. Maybe at the end of the year when 1 or 2 losses moves you up a spot and the playoffs are out of question, but this early in the year is just stupid and childish to root against your favorite team and then go on a message board and talk about how happy you are that your team just lost. Spend your time elsewhere.

Yes, but you, like the other little kid who posted above you, have no foresight nor any understanding of what it takes to turn a team around, whereas I do. This team is going nowhere without a talent overhaul. It wont happen via trade, we don't have the pieces and even if we did Bird's shown nothing to prove he could get it done. It likely wont happen via free agency, as we're saddled with bad contracts, and Indiana isn't an attractive free agent destination. The draft is our only hope.

I'd love for the team to win now, but I know, given our talent, it's an impossibility. Taking that into account, I'd rather go 30-52 and get an Eric Gordon or a Michael Beasley than go 40-42, get swept in the 1st round by an incredible Celtics team, and gamble on a less attractive, mid-round prospect. I'm willing to sacrafice the present in order to improve the team long term, whereas people like you want instant unrealistic success. Simply put - that makes me the more DEDICATED fan. Period.

I guess ultimately it just comes down to how high your standards are. Mine are ridiculously high. If you're not contending or acquiring the talent that could turn you into contenders, then you're not good enough for moi. Maybe you can go to Conseco at the end of the season and help them raise the "We went .450" banner up to the rafters.

Cobol Sam
01-20-2008, 12:02 AM
I wonder if, in light of this being a pluralistic society, there is some way that different fans could support the team in different ways. And I wonder if in my crazy scheme it could be done without one trying to best the other in some sort of fan competition.

Kofi
01-20-2008, 12:05 AM
The problem with rooting for a high lotto pick is that too many teams have had WAY TOO big of a head start on you for those privileeges.

I'd be very satisfied with a pick in the 7-10 region, which is well within reach. There are future All-Stars available in those picks petty much every draft. The problem is, you're a Warriors fan, and your long history of mentally challenged GM's don't have a clue when it comes to drafting in the lottery. Patrick O'Bryant? Seriously? :rolleyes:

kester99
01-20-2008, 12:05 AM
I wonder if, in light of this being a pluralistic society, there is some way that different fans could support the team in different ways. And I wonder if in my crazy scheme it could be done without one trying to best the other in some sort of fan competition.


Naah....that'll never work.

And for the fan competition, I vote for darts.

pwee31
01-20-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm wishing we still had Maceo Baston right now.

owl
01-20-2008, 12:33 AM
I'm wishing we still had Maceo Baston right now.

Now that is an astute observation. Nice to have another back up and he would fit in well with
the offense.

d_c
01-20-2008, 12:38 AM
I'd be very satisfied with a pick in the 7-10 region, which is well within reach. There are future All-Stars available in those picks petty much every draft. The problem is, you're a Warriors fan, and your long history of mentally challenged GM's don't have a clue when it comes to drafting in the lottery. Patrick O'Bryant? Seriously? :rolleyes:

O'bryant wasn't a good pick, but it's not like Saer Sene, Rodney Carney, JJ Reddick or any player picked immediately after O'Bryant are any closer to being a future all-star that was worth tanking the season for. That was a horrible draft, and this upcoming draft seems to lose a lot of steam once you get past the top 5 players.

Point is, your chances of finding that franchise guy aren't nearly as good at that point. It's going to be full of guys who probably aren't worth tanking the season for. If you're counting on getting your franchise player at 7-10, your scouts and GMs had better be on top of things way more so than other organizations picking in that range.

And again, you're going to have lots of competition for lottery positioning, even in the 7-10 range.

Doddage
01-20-2008, 12:40 AM
Let me say, I'm as die-hard of a Pacers fan as anyone but I realize what's right and best for the team, which is rebuilding and doing anything within our power to get a high lotto pick; specifically, the highest possible to get us Eric Gordon. And if we're capable of getting more picks in the draft through trades, then we should definitely get on that too.

Simply put, having a contender in the future > not ever having a contender because that's certainly the course we're headed on as long as our cap room is being eaten by the likes of JO, Murphy, and Tins.

CableKC
01-20-2008, 01:06 AM
With JO playing at any capacity - Mikki would have been Mikki tonight instead if Tim Duncan.


I agree with you on this point. But JO would have to play more like a role player and not change the entire style of the game with his presence to have that be worth it in my opinion.

Given JONeal's condition.....even if he was playing the way he played earlier this season when he was still the closest thing to being healthy....IMHO...it's debateable as to whether he would have made Mikki Moore look like Duncan or the same old Mikki Moore that we saw before.

I could give him the benefit of the doubt that JONeal would have made some difference....but I still think that with a Frontcourt of JONeal/Foster/Murphy ( at the Center Spot ) and Dunleavy/Granger/Shawne ( at the PF spot ) we would still have difficulty matching up with with any somewhat decent Frontcourt with actual PFs and Centers......in this case Brad Miller and Mikki Moore.

I can see benefits in playing Small Ball when it comes to getting way better shooters / scorers in the lineup......but am I the only one that thinks that with our lineup and their defensive limitations ( most notably with Murphy's limited interior defense ), Small Ball will only magnify those defensive weaknesses?

I mentioned this in the game thread.......not only does our defense give up way too many wide open perimeter shots......with this Small Ball lineup....even with JONeal playing.........our interior defense can only do so much. Even with what could be considered an average Frontcourt....we gave up 33 points to Mikki Moore and Brad Miller.....a somewhat decent PF that can't score outside of 6 feet and a Center that has as much mobility as the current version of JONeal.

CableKC
01-20-2008, 01:10 AM
Let me say, I'm as die-hard of a Pacers fan as anyone but I realize what's right and best for the team, which is rebuilding and doing anything within our power to get a high lotto pick; specifically, the highest possible to get us Eric Gordon. And if we're capable of getting more picks in the draft through trades, then we should definitely get on that too.

Simply put, having a contender in the future > not ever having a contender because that's certainly the course we're headed on as long as our cap room is being eaten by the likes of JO, Murphy, and Tins.
Unless we include Granger or maybe even Shawne.....I don't think that we can get a draft pick that will be high enough to get Gordon.

Bird isn't going to tank to get a top 5 pick cuz he thinks we can compete and if we don't make the Playoffs.....we're not gonna be in range of Eric Gordon.

d_c
01-20-2008, 01:13 AM
Patrick O'Bryant? Seriously? :rolleyes:

I just want to add something on this really quickly.

If you ask me or most Warrior fans who has more basketball talent between O'Bryant and Andris Biedrins (who was a good pick at #11 overall in 2004), most will tell you straight up that O'Bryant actually has more talent.

He has more offensive skill and has more size/length. The problem is that he's not nearly as motivated/driven as Biedrins.

Eindar
01-20-2008, 02:00 AM
I see some people have jumped onto the bandwagon I started last year, namely, the "Playoffs or horrible season" bandwagon. I firmly believe that it does your team no good whatsoever to barely miss the playoffs. You should always be in the process or either loading up for a title run or reloading for a title run later.

I'm not actively rooting against the Pacers, but I view every game as a win. If the Pacers win, I got to watch my team win. If they lose, we're one step closer to rebuilding, which is the right thing to do, because this team will never be a contender with this roster.

Now, some of you are coming off WAY, WAY too critical of the guys who are actively rooting for a high lottery pick. Shame on you. Let them enjoy the team the way they want, and you enjoy it the way you want. Until you start paying Able for upkeep on the boards, I don't think you really get to tell other posters how they should act/feel.

Personally, I'm rooting for a rebuilding effort for one reason. We're not going anywhere with this team, and at least if we stockpile a bunch of young talent, I have a reason to tune into the game, because I'll know that every game is a chance to watch a young guy develop into suomething special. There's a reason I watched Zeke's teams religiously, even though they were mediocre. JO, Al, Artest, Tinsley, and Bender were all young and improving, and so there was always something to watch. I guess I'm just really interested in player development. Sue me.

bnd45
01-20-2008, 02:57 AM
Murphy was simply awful tonight. How can anyone argue that he deserves more PT than Foster? I know many have given up on the guy, but when his suspension is over, I can see Harrison having some real value. Murphy shouldn't see the court in our new, small lineup and Foster can't play the whole game. The 5th guy in a small lineup needs to be the energy guy that does the dirty work like Foster. Harrison can definitely be that guy.

Stephen Graham's game tonight made Marquis Daniels expendable in my eyes. (I don't want to go overboard by adding Dunleavy to that list, but I have this growing feeling that now would be our best chance to get a decent return on Mike) That dunk was the most explosive Pacer play since Reggie dunked on the whole Nets team in Game 5. That's what we call an angry dunk and it is something that this passive bunch lacks. We need more aggression and guys that strike some fear into the opponent (I'm not talking about the Artest kind of fear)

kester99
01-20-2008, 03:01 AM
I understand that many of the posters here have given up on the current Pacers line-up. Some even seem to express real hate when it comes to one player or another. I'm sure that stems from disappointment and frustration that these folks, as fans, feel when their team is not winning.

I also see the weaknesses of this line-up, and much of that starts with salaries, contractual commitments, and recurring injuries. I can even say, "Yes! I'd like Eric Gordon on the Pacers, please."

Some of the folks here seem to approach the whole Pacers fan thing as if they were GMs. Trade talk, lottery talk, that's all great, I guess, if you're into that side of it. But just because a person is NOT into that side of it, doesn't mean they don't understand the Pacers' current situation. And the lottery will take care of itself, Larry Bird's not taking my calls, and what I think should happen with the line-up will affect that line-up not at all.

But if that's how you enjoy your basketball, FINE. Do the trade proposals, peruse and assess the lottery candidates. Must be fun to some...there's a lot of folks doing it.

And yet somehow, there are still folks here who are just actively, emotionally, edge-of-the-seat rooting for the Pacers to win this game, tonight, right now. And when they don't win, and these folks are feeling somewhere between sad and crushed, to post a message along the lines of "whee! I'm glad we lost" seems in poor taste. Seems kind of punkish. Seems un-fanlike. Seems inconsiderate.

You can say it's not. You can explain the concept of 'draft pick' once again for the benefit of us poor ignorant types. I'm just saying how it seems.

Perhaps it's just a question of timing. Maybe you could just wait a few minutes after a loss, before posting about how satisfied it made you.

Eindar
01-20-2008, 03:28 AM
I understand that many of the posters here have given up on the current Pacers line-up. Some even seem to express real hate when it comes to one player or another. I'm sure that stems from disappointment and frustration that these folks, as fans, feel when their team is not winning.

I also see the weaknesses of this line-up, and much of that starts with salaries, contractual commitments, and recurring injuries. I can even say, "Yes! I'd like Eric Gordon on the Pacers, please."

Some of the folks here seem to approach the whole Pacers fan thing as if they were GMs. Trade talk, lottery talk, that's all great, I guess, if you're into that side of it. But just because a person is NOT into that side of it, doesn't mean they don't understand the Pacers' current situation. And the lottery will take care of itself, Larry Bird's not taking my calls, and what I think should happen with the line-up will affect that line-up not at all.

But if that's how you enjoy your basketball, FINE. Do the trade proposals, peruse and assess the lottery candidates. Must be fun to some...there's a lot of folks doing it.

And yet somehow, there are still folks here who are just actively, emotionally, edge-of-the-seat rooting for the Pacers to win this game, tonight, right now. And when they don't win, and these folks are feeling somewhere between sad and crushed, to post a message along the lines of "whee! I'm glad we lost" seems in poor taste. Seems kind of punkish. Seems un-fanlike. Seems inconsiderate.

You can say it's not. You can explain the concept of 'draft pick' once again for the benefit of us poor ignorant types. I'm just saying how it seems.

Perhaps it's just a question of timing. Maybe you could just wait a few minutes after a loss, before posting about how satisfied it made you.

No, what's "punk-ish" is jumping all over someone because they express a sentiment you don't approve of. Maybe you should keep in mind that we're all Pacers fans here, and nobody is trying to rub your nose in a Pacers loss. Now, if that were a non-Pacers fan coming to rub it in? Fine, go nuts. But this is a Pacers fan who simply takes a different viewpoint from yours.

I don't attack Vegans because they don't like steak. At the end of the day, we're both humans who need to eat. They just have a different approach.

kester99
01-20-2008, 03:31 AM
No, what's "punk-ish" is jumping all over someone because they express a sentiment you don't approve of. Maybe you should keep in mind that we're all Pacers fans here, and nobody is trying to rub your nose in a Pacers loss. Now, if that were a non-Pacers fan coming to rub it in? Fine, go nuts. But this is a Pacers fan who simply takes a different viewpoint from yours.

I don't attack Vegans because they don't like steak. At the end of the day, we're both humans who need to eat. They just have a different approach.

If you're eating your steak at the same table as the vegan, and they're always going on about how eating meat is wrong, and how happy they are that they quit eating meat, are they being virtuous? Or are they just rubbing your nose in it?

Edit: My post is/was specifically directed at people who post that they are glad we lost. For whatever reason. It is not directed at people who are 'taking the long view' or who enjoy talk of player trades and the like. I guess this analogy makes as much sense as talking about vegans: I never liked Richard Nixon. But when he died, I would not have walked up to the funeral party and yelled, "Well, it's about time!"

Unclebuck
01-20-2008, 04:18 AM
Mikki Moore was not the problem tonight. At least not him specifically. he was not the primary option on any of those plays. He was getting open for two reasons, but mainly one reason. The fact that he was getting open demonstrates the problem the Pacers were having controllng their guards. Everyone of Moore's scores came as a result of our guards getting beaten off the dribble, which forced our big guy to come over and help -thus leaving Moore open. It wasn't as if Moore was a primary post-up player - so no, he was not like Duncan at all.

jmoney2584
01-20-2008, 05:04 AM
Yes, but you, like the other little kid who posted above you, have no foresight nor any understanding of what it takes to turn a team around, whereas I do. This team is going nowhere without a talent overhaul. It wont happen via trade, we don't have the pieces and even if we did Bird's shown nothing to prove he could get it done. It likely wont happen via free agency, as we're saddled with bad contracts, and Indiana isn't an attractive free agent destination. The draft is our only hope.

I'd love for the team to win now, but I know, given our talent, it's an impossibility. Taking that into account, I'd rather go 30-52 and get an Eric Gordon or a Michael Beasley than go 40-42, get swept in the 1st round by an incredible Celtics team, and gamble on a less attractive, mid-round prospect. I'm willing to sacrafice the present in order to improve the team long term, whereas people like you want instant unrealistic success. Simply put - that makes me the more DEDICATED fan. Period.

I guess ultimately it just comes down to how high your standards are. Mine are ridiculously high. If you're not contending or acquiring the talent that could turn you into contenders, then you're not good enough for moi. Maybe you can go to Conseco at the end of the season and help them raise the "We went .450" banner up to the rafters.

WOW, this is EXACTLY what i have been preaching to anyone who would lend me an ear for the past 2 months. Verbatim, perfect. I am ok with losing for the next 2-3 in order to build a legit long term contender and WIN for the next 10. What is the point in making the playoffs to get waxed by a Detroit or Celtics team, forfeit decent draft position, and have all this free agent mess come summer. Throw the season, get a good pick...trade for what picks you can and flip those for more picks. We dont have the ability to get solid free agents to come here, and besides..when have you ever seen the pacers willing to throw the big bucks at a star player to even have a shot at bringing them here...NEVER. I am one of the biggest pacers fans i know and i root for the FUTURE of the franchise. I see it like this, it's like not going out and partying in college knowing that if you suck it up and bust your *** for 4 years and sacrifice your fun, but when you graduate you will be getting paid and living a lavish life with pretty much anything you want because you sacrificed 4 years of petty playtime for the rest of your life in economic success. The young pieces we have now with some good upcoming draft talents will make for a great dynasty down the road, we just have to build with that in mind, for the future, not for the now because we dont have a chance at the now. Kofi, I'm so glad to hear that from someone other than myself and having to explain to everyone EVERY game WHY i want to see Granger play well while the pacers lose...it gets frustrating.

PS i know this just runs into jumble but i just got off of work, im tired and dont care...you all get the point

Arcadian
01-20-2008, 07:58 AM
After reading this thread I learned two things:

1) a real Pacer fan roots for the Knicks.

2) College ball is better because you can hope Notre Dame would lose all of it's games because you hate them.

OakMoses
01-20-2008, 08:15 AM
I hate losing.

There were plenty more problems than just Tins tonight. On offense I thought he played pretty well. I only remember one stupid shot (a 3 in the 4th quarter).

What was truly awesome was when he let Brad Miller blow by him for a layup in the closing minutes of the game.

Rajah Brown
01-20-2008, 08:16 AM
Tell it Kofi. You da man !

VF21
01-20-2008, 10:24 PM
Rooting to get a high lottery pick isn't rooting against the team. It's realizing the team doesn't have the necessary talent to compete at a high level, and being willing to sacrafice the now for the future. You may not agree with the logic, but to imply that it doesn't make one a "true' fan of the team is ridiculous. We all want the same thing - for the Pacers to become a fun, contending team again.

I, as a Kings fan, pretty much agreed with you up through that point. However:


It's just some of us have foresight and understanding and some of us don't.This is just not fair or true. You have foresight and understanding because you want to sacrifice the now for the future? Bulldooty. You could have made your case without the smug superiority, IMHO...

Kings fans are divided over the same issue. BUT I think most of my fellow fans at least acknowledge the validity of each side of the argument.

I feel a kinship with Pacers fans; have for a very long time. Your team is struggling; my team is struggling. The idea of sacrificing the now for the future is interesting on paper but it begs one question: If the team is going to sacrifice the now, how much further are attendance figures going to fall? And if they fall far enough, will it be impossible to bring them back?

NBA owners have to make money to pay the salaries for the top quality players to make the team competitive and exciting to bring the fans to fill the seats by paying the money so the owners can pay the salaries (on ad infinitum) It's a complete symbiotic relationship. The team that tosses everything down the well is risking the ultimate price. I just don't think people really understand how tough it is to read comments about people wanting to root for their team to lose. I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this until I read this thread. I hate to see "fans" rooting against their own teams. It's just not right.

And now, I'll apologize in advance for any feathers I may have ruffled and slink back to my own board.

Peace.

grace
01-21-2008, 12:01 AM
I feel a kinship with Pacers fans; have for a very long time. Your team is struggling; my team is struggling.

You have Ron Artest and his mood swings. We have JO who it would appear has picked up a few Ron-isms of his own.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-21-2008, 12:40 AM
Losing to get better? The following includes draft picks following the first losing season until the draft prior to the last losing record. For example the Celtic's numbers include the 1994 draft thru the 2000 draft. Hey if they decided to trade their high picks for players that's their fault.

Atlanta Hawks
'99-'00 to present 8+ losing season's 235-457 (.340)
13 1st round picks including 7 top ten's

Boston Celtics
'93-'94 to '00-'01 8 losing season's 241-383 (.386)
8 1st round picks including 5 top tens

Charlotte Bobcats
'04-'05 to present 3+ losing season's 93-193 (.325)
6 1st round picks including 4 top ten's

Chicago Bulls
'98-'99 to '03-'04 6 losing season's 119-341 (.259)
8 1st rounder's including 6 top ten's ( four top 4 picks)

Cleveland Cav's
'98-'99 to '03-'04 6 losing season's 165-295 (.359)
7 1st rounder's including 5 top ten's

Dallas Mav's
'90-'91 to '99-'00 10 losing season's 239-549 (.303)
11 1st rounder's including 6 top ten's

Denver Nuggets
'95-'96 to '02-'03 8 losing season's 200-424 (.321)
8 1st rounder's including three top ten's

Golden State Warriors
'94-'95 to '05-'06 12 losing season's 332-620 (.349)
11 1st rounder's including 6 top ten's


So thru the first ten teams alphabetically only the Pistons and Rockets have been able to stave off a major losing streak and the other 8 teams were mired in craptacville for roughly 8-10 years. I'm not gonna continue with all the teams I think that kinda proves the point. If your team is so bad that you can get high picks you need more than one or two players.

Isaac
01-21-2008, 07:49 PM
Kofi, if everything goes as you hope and we get a high draft pick, all that means is that the players we have now are not very good and there is a ton of work to be done to fix it.

If we go 40-42 with this group that we have, that is good because we have a lot of players who are very young that get to grow up and experience some playoff basketball.

You are the unrealistic fan that wants to see us get a 'savior' through the draft, I am the realistic fan that wants to see the players we have get better as the season goes on because I realize that there are no magic cures including a high draft pick.

Eindar
01-22-2008, 12:44 AM
Kofi, if everything goes as you hope and we get a high draft pick, all that means is that the players we have now are not very good and there is a ton of work to be done to fix it.

If we go 40-42 with this group that we have, that is good because we have a lot of players who are very young that get to grow up and experience some playoff basketball.

You are the unrealistic fan that wants to see us get a 'savior' through the draft, I am the realistic fan that wants to see the players we have get better as the season goes on because I realize that there are no magic cures including a high draft pick.

I disagree. Who is "young" on this team? This is the year (year 3, see Bynum) Granger makes "the leap", historically speaking, so what you see this year is generally what you're going to get for the next 8 seasons. In other words, he's pretty much done developing, and he's a good player, but he's not an all-star.

Shawne Williams is a 2nd year player, and he's pretty young. When JO is healthy, he doesn't play much, and he never gets more than 20 mins per night. He's not going to be developing at a level you'd like to see with this roster as currently assembled.

Ike is again, a 3rd year player who rarely gets off the bench. So not only is he about done in terms of making huge strides in his game, he also doesn't get much time on the floor to make those strides.

Did I miss anyone? Rush and Dunleavy are better in this system, but they're not going to be significantly better next year than they are this year. Graham is the same age as Granger and not as talented, he's no savior, and neither are Diener or Owens. At best, those three become role-players.

Really, the only guy on this entire roster that has a chance at becoming a guy you can build around is Shawne Williams. The rest of the roster is full of decent starters and back-ups.

I would argue that even if this team goes 40-42, we still have a lot of work to do, and a mediocre draft pick to get it done with. Either way, you're hoping to get lucky, but the percentages are better in the top 10 than they are in the top 20.

And to Dr. Goldfoot:

Take a look at the teams you listed. Almost all of them had GMs that in hindsight were considered to be terrible GMs, and almost all of them started their ascent when they either drafted a "no-brainer" or got a GM in there that drafted intelligently.

I have faith that our franchise could turn it around within 2-3 years, because Larry knows talent.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2008, 01:05 AM
because Larry knows talent.


MMM-huh

Eindar
01-22-2008, 01:12 AM
MMM-huh

Snide remarks don't win arguments. Prove me wrong, if you've got a gripe with the statement. So far he's been involved in the drafting of Danny Granger and Shawne Williams. 2-for-2 based on the guys around them, I feel. We can even go back to his coaching days if you want, but I think that's more Donnie than Larry.

I don't trust Larry to pull off trades, and I don't trust him to make FA signings, but I trust him to draft, which is exactly why I'd rather see us get a good draft pick than have to hang our hopes on a trade or a FA signing.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2008, 01:35 AM
Trades and free agent signings are a huge part of being able to judge talent.

Eindar
01-22-2008, 04:05 AM
Trades and free agent signings are a huge part of being able to judge talent.

True, but I was pretty clearly talking about being bad leading to a higher draft pick. Being bad doesn't make you more likely to get a good trade, and it's actually got a negative effect on your ability to get free agents.