PDA

View Full Version : For those of you who laughed at me



Peck
01-16-2008, 12:50 AM
and will still laugh at me for when I said that Jermaine O'Neal was not significantly better than Drew Gooden.

Ahem....


2007-08 Statistics
Drew Gooden
PPG 12.1
RPG 8.9
APG 1.0
SPG 0.8
BPG 0.6
FG% 0.436
FT% 0.724
3P% 0.000
MPG 32.2

Jermaine O'Neal
PPG 15.8
RPG 7.4
APG 2.6
SPG 0.6
BPG 2.3
FG% 0.444
FT% 0.754
3P% 0.000
MPG 32.0

Now remember I have never once said that Drew was better or even as good as. I have always just said that I don't beleive that J.O. is heads and shoulders better.

As to those who will throw out the taking charges and blocking shots I will give it up to J.O. for that.

However I will add that Drew defends the better interior player almost every night as they try to protect Big Z from fouls.

So again J.O. is better, just not worlds better.

Oh not that I ever use salary to compare a players value but....

Drew Gooden 6,400,000

Jermaine O'Neal 19,710,000

Triple. Is J.O. triple better?

Anyway, I'm just feeling cantankerous tonight so I thought I would stir the pot.

Flame away.

Hicks
01-16-2008, 01:07 AM
What were those numbers just last year?

You're pumping up Gooden by comparing him to JO after JO has blatantly declined.

As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.

Sollozzo
01-16-2008, 01:20 AM
As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.

There's no argument there. Boozer is definitely a better player than JO right now.

Boozer averages 23/10, but most importantly shoots 54.8% (as a great PF should)

JO averages 15/7 and shoots a bad 44%.

JO, however, is a superior shotblocker to Boozer, averaging 2 to Boozer's .5

JO in his best season (02-03) was 21/10, and still just shot 48%. Boozer now is better, atleast statistically (since stats are the basis of this thread), than JO ever was.

That has always been my biggest problem with JO. He shoots a bad percentage, yet thinks he should be the go to guy i.e. Shaq, Duncan or KG. Except the difference is those guys shoot high percentages which are essential to being a great go to big man.

JO wants to be a go to big man, yet shoots a worse percentage than Iverson who is a 2 guard. Something isn't right with that picture.

Peck
01-16-2008, 01:39 AM
What were those numbers just last year?

You're pumping up Gooden by comparing him to JO after JO has blatantly declined.

As I think I told you long ago, there's a much stronger argument to be made with Carlos Boozer.

Drew Gooden
06-07 CLE 80 80 28.0 0.473 0.167 0.714 3.3 5.2 8.5 1.1 0.9 0.3 1.44 2.60 11.1

Jermaine O'Neal
06-07 IND 69 69 35.6 0.436 0.000 0.767 2.2 7.4 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.6 2.94 3.40 19.4

Triple.

Remember you have to play by my rules here (my thread afterall;))

So my rules for this are this, I am not saying that J.O. is not the better player.

I am saying he is NOT significantly better.

7 more min. a game last season for J.O., a system that was designed to get him shot after shot after shot.

As to Boozer? It's not even close.

I won't even go into my Shareef Abdur-Rahim speech.

Doddage
01-16-2008, 01:40 AM
If JO focused on overpowering defenders with his evident strength (his arms are huge), his shooting percentage would be quite better since he wouldn't be settling for jumpers like he does now. If he gets in the mind frame that he's dominant, he'll get most of his points under the basket through dunks, tip-ins, and offensive rebounds.

CableKC
01-16-2008, 01:51 AM
I'm guessing that this must have been some Forum Party topic....:shrug:

Sollozzo
01-16-2008, 01:51 AM
To help Peck's point a little...

What must be remembered is that Gooden plays with LBJ, who is a top 2 scorer in the league. It's not as if Gooden is getting a great amount of chances to score.

JO has played in an offense that especially through last year was designed for him to constantly get touches.

That must be taken into account as well when evaluating these 2 players.

rexnom
01-16-2008, 02:14 AM
What must also be remembered is that Gooden plays with Lebron James. He faces no double-teams and has the NBA's best player to get him the ball in places where he can score, which LeBron often does.

I think Lebron would only help Gooden's scoring.

Robertmto
01-16-2008, 04:31 AM
aw hell I think Gooden IS better.

Unless of course we're talking game changing 3 point attempts here :laugh:

Oneal07
01-16-2008, 09:29 AM
You want to say he's better cause of stats?

I'd take Jemaine way before I take Drew Gooden. Just remember, Drew Has LeBron on his team. If Jermaine had a LeBron, you'd see way better numbers, compared to Gooden.

O'neal >>>> Gooden

You honestly think Gooden is better than a healthy J.O? What a Joke

Unclebuck
01-16-2008, 09:37 AM
Peck, you lost me with all those numbers. LOL

I do want to make a serious point though. JO is better, no doubt in my mind about that, just how good would Gooden be without LeBron getting him wide open shot after wide open shot.

Arcadian
01-16-2008, 09:44 AM
Troy makes more than Drew but you just have to look past that.

Slick Pinkham
01-16-2008, 09:54 AM
I won't even go into my Shareef Abdur-Rahim speech.

I was right there with you until that last line.

Abdur-Rahim is pretty much an every night DNP-CD on a bad team, and for apparently good reasons. Slow, broken down, no D, no toughness, and eroding offense.

avoidingtheclowns
01-16-2008, 10:02 AM
isn't it conceivable that JO's stats would improve significantly playing alongside Lebron?

idioteque
01-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Right now it's concievable that they're similar talents. But think of it as a graph with Jermaine's rapidly declining line intersecting with Gooden's slightly rising line. JO has been significantly better than Gooden for most of his career. JO has had FOUR YEARS of averaging at least 20/10, and a couple more years of 19/10. Drew Gooden's best year is 14/9 and he has averaged 13 ppg only one other year.

So if you're talking about now, it's concievable, but statistically, if you're talking about overall, I think you're gravely mistaken.

andreialta
01-16-2008, 10:48 AM
I think JO gets much more BLOCKS than Gooden will!

Bad knee or good Knee

Slick Pinkham
01-16-2008, 11:06 AM
Blocking shots is so important that the last NBA champion to have the league leader in blocked shots that season was...

Hakeem in 1993?

It's overrated, and is often a result of compensating for bad defensive positioning.

avoidingtheclowns
01-16-2008, 12:33 PM
Blocking shots is so important that the last NBA champion to have the league leader in blocked shots that season was...

Hakeem in 1993?

It's overrated, and is often a result of compensating for bad defensive positioning.

so the only person that is good at blocking shots per year is the one guy that wins?

what if we were to expand it a little and look at the top 10 per year for the last 10 years?


1997-1998
Bulls v. Jazz: none

1998-1999
Spurs v. Knicks: Ewing #6, Duncan #7, Robinson #9

1999-2000
Lakers v. Pacers: Shaq #3

2000-2001
Lakers v. Sixers: Ratliff #1, Shaq #4, Mutombo #5

2001-2002
Lakers v. Nets: Shaq #10

2002-2003
Spurs v. Nets: Duncan #3

2003-2004
Pistons v. Lakers: Wallace #2, Shaq #8

2004-2005
Spurs v. Pistons: Duncan #3, Wallace #5

2005-2006
Heat v. Mavs: Shaq #6

2006-2007
Spurs v. Cavs: Duncan #5

Major Cold
01-16-2008, 12:47 PM
Having a shot blocker is more than you guys think.

JayRedd
01-16-2008, 01:02 PM
Look...we all know JO is struggling offensively right now. That's not disputable.

It still doesn't mean that it was an utterly ridiculous comment to say the Drew Gooden was even near JO's level when you stated it like a year ago (or more) when JO was playing like an animal (he was clearly a Top 3 DPOY candidate while averaging a 20/10 last February).

If you want to say you predicted a future when a half-injured JO would be similar statistically to your man-crush Drew Gooden, then fine.

But you were 100% wrong at the time you first said it. (And, for the record, I think you're still pretty wrong now. And I like Gooden quite a bit.)

Mourning
01-16-2008, 01:07 PM
Look...we all know JO is struggling offensively right now. That's not disputable.

It still doesn't mean that it was an utterly ridiculous comment to say the Drew Gooden was even near JO's level when you stated it like a year ago (or more) and JO playing like an animal (he clearly a Top 3 DPOY candidate while averaging a 20/10 last February).

If you want to say you predicted a future when a half-injured JO would be similar statistically to your man-crush Drew Gooden, then fine.

But you were 100% wrong at the time you first said it. (And, for the record, I think you're still pretty wrong now. And I like Gooden quite a bit.)

Sorry Peck, but Jay is 100% right here IMO.

Robertmto... EVERYONE is better then a Pacers player seems to be your credo :).

Peck
01-16-2008, 01:19 PM
Uh Uh Uh...

You people are NOT following the rule here. Not once did I say that Drew Gooden was better than J.O.

Not once did I say that Drew Gooden is even as good as J.O.

My rules are specific on this, I am saying that Jermaine O'Neal is not 3 times better than Drew Gooden.

The fact that JayRedd (who I respect as a poster btw) just said that J.O. was tearing up the leauge and should be considered an MVP candidate for averaging 20 & 10 is exactly what I'm talking about.

While 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at, to be frank it's not truely otherworldy good either.

Hence my Abdur-Rahim speech. Sorry Tom I should have been more specific. I'm saying early in his career Shareef got the same stats mostly as what J.O. did at the top of his game, yet no one went around throwing out the word MVP.

J.O. is now and has always been a better shot blocker than Rahim, however I will contend that Shariff was a better post defender later in his career.

So..... So far we only have emotional responses proclaiming how wrong I am about Drew Gooden not being better than J.O.

Now that I have covered this again, please go back and now proclaim with some logic how he is 3 times better than J.O.

BTW, yes I realize we are using salary here which I hate. But it is the only tangible number I can come up with at the moment.

andreialta
01-16-2008, 01:21 PM
Shot blocking isnt overrated. it doesn't matter if the last team that won the championship that had the shot block leader was back in 1993 does not say that the teams that have won does not have legitimate shot blockers?

if you dont have shot blockers, players on the opposition will think that they can really man handle you, they can drive the ball at will and not worry about someone altering their shots.

can't believe you'd say such a thing, about it being not important.

Slick Pinkham
01-16-2008, 01:21 PM
so the only person that is good at blocking shots per year is the one guy that wins?

No, I'm saying that good frontcourt defensive players are often good shot blockers, and it is important to have good defensive players in the frontcourt,

but the converse is not true, good shotblockers are sometimes not particularly good frontcourt defensive players.

Was Shawn Bradley a good defensive player?

Jermaine isn't in the Shawn Bradley category, but I will use the extreme example to make the point.

andreialta
01-16-2008, 01:21 PM
ok. 3x better. i get it then

;)

Major Cold
01-16-2008, 01:26 PM
I don't think you are bringing us breaking news. JO is overpaid and we did the Spurs a big favor. Opening them up to spend money on Parker and Manu. While loading role players like Finely and Barry.

Shade
01-16-2008, 01:35 PM
I don't contend that JO is overpaid now. I contend that he was overpaid then.

Mourning
01-16-2008, 01:37 PM
3x better. Ok, so you want us to name players that average about 35pts, 27 rebounds, 3 assists and 1.5 blocks ... A GAME?

Who is that player? I want him on my team, dammit!


















Yeah, just joking with you, Peck. I know what you meant ;).

Arcadian
01-16-2008, 01:51 PM
Is being three times as good as someone beating a player and two of his clones by yourself?

If Murphy and Boozer played each other in this type of metric would we need to give Boozer four arms so that the paychecks match?

avoidingtheclowns
01-16-2008, 01:52 PM
No, I'm saying that good frontcourt defensive players are often good shot blockers, and it is important to have good defensive players in the frontcourt,

but the converse is not true, good shotblockers are sometimes not particularly good frontcourt defensive players.

Was Shawn Bradley a good defensive player?

Jermaine isn't in the Shawn Bradley category, but I will use the extreme example to make the point.

well if that was your point i wouldn't have said "the only league leader to win a championship." shawn bradley was 7'6" dude blocked shots by accident not because of any tangible skill.

i don't disagree that defense and blocked shots have a square/rectangle relationship but i also think your point (which appears to be that shawn bradley and manute bol got a lot of blocks but where mostly talentless and certainly never led their teams to championships) is like saying committing to a star SG is pointless because the only one that won a championship without a major post player was jordan.

JayRedd
01-16-2008, 02:19 PM
(who I respect as a poster btw)

Well, that makes one...


The fact that JayRedd (who I respect as a poster btw) just said that J.O. was tearing up the leauge and should be considered an MVP candidate for averaging 20 & 10 is exactly what I'm talking about.

While 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at, to be frank it's not truely otherworldy good either.

Well, while you're repeating what you said...let me repeat what I said: Top 3 DPOY candidate. Never did I mention MVP.

Last year, he blocked 4 or more shots in 20 of his first 50 games...While leading the league in charges. Meanwhile, he was averaging 20/10 and shooting 45+% (no...not great as always, but it's not the 42% that he gets chastised for).

And I know that no one here seems to think JO does anything on defense but block shots and take charges, but there's a lot more to it that that.

Yes, guys like Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Chris Bosh, Zach Randolph, Pau Gasol, Al Jefferson and the other elite offensive post-up players score on him. But guess what...they score on everybody. Know why? They're really, really good at making post moves. And in basketball, great offense always beats great defense one-on-one.

So without going too much further into it. JO is very good defensively at: a) blocking shots, b) taking charges, c) rotating to thwart guard penetration into the paint, d) changing the shot of penetrators, e) hedging at penetrators and recovering to his man, f) closing out on jump-shooters, g) not getting beat off the dribble, and h) general lateral foot speed.

And I would even say he's elite at all these things among PFs. No, he's not actually elite at stopping post moves when left one-on-one on the block against a guy who's got an array of moves. He's thin and not amazingly strong, so he can be overpowered and (especially lately) out-quicked.

But aside from TD and KG (two of the Top 5 of All Time), I'm not sure there's been a better defensive starting PF than him over the past 5 years. If I'm forgetting someone, please let me know. (Yes, there are specialists including at times our own Jeff Foster. But you have to factor in that they aren't required to play 35 mpg and shoulder the offensive burden.)


My rules are specific on this, I am saying that Jermaine O'Neal is not 3 times better than Drew Gooden.

Okay...let's get to the salary part.

I do get what you're saying. But, c'mon, no one in the NBA is 3x better than any other pretty good starter at the same position.

Kobe isn't 3x better than Jamal Crawford. JKidd isn't 3x better than Devin Harris. Hell, KG is not 4x as good as Drew Gooden either. Is even Lebron 3x better than Luol Deng?

And even if you think any of those guys are that much better, let me see you prove it with stats and it will look equally out-of-whack to this small disparity between JO and Beardy McGooden.

Why? Because it's a silly proposition. The only way you could prove someone is that much better than someone else is through argument and debate (as I tried to do above about JO's far-and-away superior defensive abilities than Drew).

And I know you're begrudgingly using the money as a comparison, but the economics of the situation have to be somewhat separate. And especially separate from the stats.

Additionally, its even more silly when talking about guys still on deals before the new CBA. When JO's deal happened it was what we needed to give him in order to keep him on this team. It's that simple. You can't just pretend the former CBA, other likely offers and the overall Pacer situation at the time didn't happen. We either gave him the max or he walked. Losing our franchise player would have been really bad, so Donnie gave him the max. And I sincerely doubt he regrets it. Even now that JO is averaging 16/7.

So yes...JO's overpaid...we get it.

But so are a lot of the other grandfathered in outlandish contracts of the past CBA. Even AI and TMac are now overpaid...and they're both better players than JO has ever been. And if you wanna get right down to it, KG's $23 million per is not helping Danny Ainge fill up the rest of the bench any...even if Big Ticket is "earning" it. Similarly, when KG is grossly overpaid in 2011 are you gonna think Ainge was wrong to make the move he did for the franchise in 2007?

Regardless, you can't blame it on JO. He didn't give himself that contract. And from what I've seen, he hasn't slouched on the effort side AT ALL.




And, okay, maybe I'm taking the whole thing too seriously (a first?). But I just know how low the whole PD world is on JO right now and I don't want anyone here thinking JO's should have to be 3x better than Drew Gooden because he makes 3x more money.

Nor do I want anyone to think that talent level was even remotely anywhere near ballpark close as recently as last March 1 when he was clearly playing at least twice as good as your boy Drew.

And if it's as close as you claim it is now, it's a very, very new development.



(I feel like Naptown Seth (note the spacing and ridiculous punctuation as illustrated by the parentheses inside parentheses). Heaven help me.)

SkipperZ
01-16-2008, 05:01 PM
im still laughing at you

Robertmto
01-16-2008, 06:04 PM
Robertmto... EVERYONE is better then a Pacers player seems to be your credo :).

Nah actually Quis and Shawne Williams are a lot better than alot of people in the league. Including 5 of the Pacer starters ;)

naptownmenace
01-16-2008, 06:10 PM
What must also be remembered is that Gooden plays with Lebron James. He faces no double-teams and has the NBA's best player to get him the ball in places where he can score, which LeBron often does.

I think Lebron would only help Gooden's scoring.

That's exactly the way I interpreted it. JO when healthy is still head and shoulders above Drew Gooden - and for the record I like Gooden.

quiller
01-17-2008, 02:43 AM
What I also would like to know is what % of his teams pts, assists, rebounds etc is he getting....

Gooden has James does not face double teams and more importantly is not forced to try and score against double teams....

For the record I do think JO's level of play from game to game has dramatically dropped off the past few years mostly due to injury. AT times he has shown it but it is getting a little rarer each game...

#31
01-17-2008, 07:05 AM
But i dont think its fair to say that Gooden is a worse player or scores less because of Lebron... infact i think its a laughable thing to say, it should be the opposite! Gooden scores more (including everybody in the Cavs roster) just because of Lebron!

Because Lebron faces double/tripple teams every game leaves many guys open, including Gooden and Lebron gets a kick out of passing the ball just as dunking.

I mean Lebron is not like Kobe or a Carmelo type of player, Lebron is actually VERY unselfish and he comes from a Point Guard / Playmaker background and you will NEVER again see a scorer like him this unselfish.

What im trying to say is sure that he can score like the best of them... but his court vision, playmaking, unselfishness and passing ability can be compared to anybody aswell, he averages also around 8 assists per game... The last 68" and 240 lbs forward type of player to do that is a player that Lebron also idolize, a legendary name for the Lakers who weared #32.

owl
01-17-2008, 09:18 AM
Drew Gooden
06-07 CLE 80 80 28.0 0.473 0.167 0.714 3.3 5.2 8.5 1.1 0.9 0.3 1.44 2.60 11.1

Jermaine O'Neal
06-07 IND 69 69 35.6 0.436 0.000 0.767 2.2 7.4 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.6 2.94 3.40 19.4

Triple.

Remember you have to play by my rules here (my thread afterall;))

So my rules for this are this, I am not saying that J.O. is not the better player.

I am saying he is NOT significantly better.

7 more min. a game last season for J.O., a system that was designed to get him shot after shot after shot.

As to Boozer? It's not even close.

I won't even go into my Shareef Abdur-Rahim speech.


I believe you should capitalize significantly instead of not to better make your point.
Other than that I won't deny your point. :-)

Naptown_Seth
01-17-2008, 11:43 AM
Peck, the major issue here is that the NBA salary standard is such that you get diminishing returns on your investment for any deal not limited by the player's tenure.

For Kobe, or Lebron or Duncan I could go find a player that beats them PER DOLLAR.

The top guys get more than the optimum per dollar average because that last 10-15% of talent, the difference between winning by 5 and losing by 1, costs a lot of money.

If you graph out the talent level you get a bell curve with tons of average to good players to choose from, thus a buyer's market. But the cream of the crop is very small and becomes a seller's market.

Nash (who has a rare lower valued deal by PHX luck IMO) could get $20m, a player like Calderon with 9 assists to his 12 won't get $15m on some $/assist ratio with Nash setting the standard.

That last difference, that extra level that others don't have, that costs money. More than what the actual statistical difference is.


And oh yeah, JO didn't have Lebron or Big Z for that matter and has been dealing with injuries for the last few years (but well after the new deal was signed).

Naptown_Seth
01-17-2008, 11:48 AM
(I feel like Naptown Seth (note the spacing and ridiculous punctuation as illustrated by the parentheses inside parentheses). Heaven help me.)
Spacing is your friend. Consider my posts without line breaks or double lines between different thoughts or addressing different subjects. Un-freaking-readable (more than it is).

(asides - that's just how I roll I guess, but I don't think it's incorrect)

Of course you won't read any of this due to my Sam ban (deserved).

bulldog
01-17-2008, 01:46 PM
3x better. Ok, so you want us to name players that average about 35pts, 27 rebounds, 3 assists and 1.5 blocks ... A GAME?

Who is that player? I want him on my team, dammit!


I know you said just joking, but that's a good point.

In the NBA you don't just pay for statistical production; you pay (and grossly overpay) to snag the elite players that can push you over the top in a playoff series. It's the difference between the Raptors, who have lots of good players that are relatively cheap and play well, and the Celtics, who pay a ton for three elite players that are going to put them in championship contention.

Obviously, JO is no longer near that category, so the reason he is overpaid compared to Drew Gooden is not necessarily that he gets the same amount of points, but that IMHO he has the same ability to get you an extra win in April and June: near zero.

BlueNGold
01-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Not a big difference between today's JO and Drew Gooden. Pretty sad, because there used to be no comparison. It's sickening to think that your franchise player could be even remotely compared to Drew Gooden.

Would I trade JO for Drew Gooden? Yes, if it would yield cap relief...but not on a talent for talent basis even with the current injury situation. JO's knee may improve and his trade value could conceivably improve above and beyond Gooden's. JO is the kind of player who is still viewed as a good #2 in the right system if he's healthy. Can't say that about Drew.

BUT long term, JO takes us nowhere and that's the one guarantee wrt JO that actually sticks. We will be playoff fodder at best regardless of whether he is playing or not...particularly with our style of play.

Cap relief, a prospect or two, or picks...

Peck
01-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Let's take away the triple part because people are getting to hung up on that.

Is J.O. significantly better than Drew Gooden, that is the question.

Please use some form of logic beyond, of course he is.

Now you are going to ask me what is "significantly better"? I'm not sure, I guess better in every statistical catogory by at least 10% would be a good start. But maybe better in most stat. catogory's would at least be a start.

BTW, just for the record. I don't even like Drew Gooden and would not trade Jeff Foster or Troy Murphy for him.

I just use him as and have used him in the past as an example of a mid level player that I don't believe that J.O. is significantly better than.

Also the LeBron argument. That cuts both ways and good arguments can be made for both sides.

Yes, it is true he is not the primary or even secondary offensive weapon on the team so he does not draw the double teams or defensive schemes like J.O. does.

However the % of our offense that has ran through J.O. over the past 4 years also has afforded Jermaine significantly more offensive opprotunities so therefor the fact that J.O. has avg. only about 6 more points a game over the past few years just does not impress me.

I'm just saying that I have never considered J.O. to be an elite player or an elite big man. He benefitted from being the only legitimate big player in the E.C. for about 3 years so that gave many people the impression he was one of the best big men.

Quick from the years 01 through 06 name the second best big man in the East?

If you say Ben Wallace you are correct. However Ben, while affective, has never been anything more than a specialist.

Now before anyone has a coronary on me, remember I am not saying J.O. is a bad player or not even a good big man. I'm just saying that he is not now and has never been a franchise player and that statisticaly speaking he is not much better than some of the second tier players.

Remember for 8 years Shareef Abdur-Rahim was a 20 & 10 player as well, yet when I compare J.O. him people nearly die. Yet stat for stat Shareef was either comparable to him or in some cases a little better (except for shot blocking).

JayRedd
01-17-2008, 09:59 PM
Remember for 8 years Shareef Abdur-Rahim was a 20 & 10 player as well, yet when I compare J.O. him people nearly die. Yet stat for stat Shareef was either comparable to him or in some cases a little better (except for shot blocking).

8...1...same thing really.

BlueNGold
01-17-2008, 10:30 PM
Man, I'm not exactly high on JO...so this will feel real strange. My only argument here is that at one time, JO did have the potential to be a near Garnett/Duncan level player.

Around the age of 24 or 25, JO was a solid 20+ and 10 boards player who could play both sides of the ball. After his injury in Denver, his game took a big step back as he started to enter his prime. I think that was a huge setback for him toward reaching his potential...which I'm convinced he never did.

Since that injury, he's played soft and is afraid to use his right hand in traffic. Let's just say it took away a great deal of his effectiveness. Yes, he had some nice stretches after that, but that's going to happen for a player going into his prime. JO's done other things to develop his game in terms of taking charges...so there has been a mix of improvements along with setbacks due to injury.

Combine all that with all the leg injuries he's had over the years and now his knee, he's headed toward Allen Houston/Jonathan Bender Land. IMO, JO would easily have a few straight seasons of 24ppg/12rpg if his body was not such a mess.

Yes, the east has been the weaker conference, but he still would have produced similar numbers in the west IMO. In games where he went up against the Garnetts and Duncans, my recollection is that he did pretty good. He certainly was not dominated against those guys. So, I would not discount too much the fact he played in the EC.

I can't say JO could have reached the Garnett/Duncan level, but to think he did not have a much, much better potential than Drew Gooden is simply ludicrous.

Peck
01-17-2008, 10:46 PM
Man, I'm not exactly high on JO...so this will feel real strange. My only argument here is that at one time, JO did have the potential to be a near Garnett/Duncan level player.

Around the age of 24 or 25, JO was a solid 20+ and 10 boards player who could play both sides of the ball. After his injury in Denver, his game took a big step back as he started to enter his prime. I think that was a huge setback for him toward reaching his potential...which I'm convinced he never did.

Since that injury, he's played soft and is afraid to use his right hand in traffic. Let's just say it took away a great deal of his effectiveness. Yes, he had some nice stretches after that, but that's going to happen for a player going into his prime. JO's done other things to develop his game in terms of taking charges...so there has been a mix of improvements along with setbacks due to injury.

Combine all that with all the leg injuries he's had over the years and now his knee, he's headed toward Allen Houston/Jonathan Bender Land. IMO, JO would easily have a few straight seasons of 24ppg/12rpg if his body was not such a mess.

Yes, the east has been the weaker conference, but he still would have produced similar numbers in the west IMO. In games where he went up against the Garnetts and Duncans, my recollection is that he did pretty good. He certainly was not dominated against those guys. So, I would not discount too much the fact he played in the EC.

I can't say JO could have reached the Garnett/Duncan level, but to think he did not have a much, much better potential than Drew Gooden is simply ludicrous.

Potential is a funny word. Jon Bender had the potential to revolutionalize the power forward position, or some wise person once said.;)

I'm not talking about potential or alternate universes or whatever, I'm talking about what really happened and what is happening.

Peck
01-17-2008, 10:48 PM
8...1...same thing really.

I know I'm old and all so please help me along here. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Peck
01-17-2008, 10:59 PM
For everyone who wants to talk about the 20 & 10 thing let me make sure we are all on the same page.

Jermaine O'Neal avg. 20 & 10 and he is close to being an all-world player. One of the best in the league.

So when Carlos Boozer is avg. 23 & 11 he is?

Zach Randolph avg. 24 & 10 he is?

Pau Gasol avg. 20 & 10 he is?

Shareef Abdur-Rahim avg. 21 & 9 he is?

Clark Kellogg avg. 20 & 11 he is?

You see, like I said before, while 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at it doesn't make you one of the best in the league either.

JayRedd
01-17-2008, 11:05 PM
I know I'm old and all so please help me along here. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Shareef's prime (Pts/Rbs)

22.3/7.1
23.0/7.5
20.3/10.1
20.5/9.1
21.2/9.0
19.9/8.4
16.8/7.1

You said he had 8 years of 20/10.

I only consider three (four if you wanna get really liberal) of those to be actual "20/10s"...and only one is for real.

Not tryna nit-pick...just saying.

I also think Shareef never got his due since he was never on a team that wasn't absolutely horrible.

But, basically, if we call KG and TD both a 10 out of 10 as far as great PFs of the last decade, JO is an 8, Reef is a 7 and Drew Gooden is a 5. (This is talking about the past 5-10 years...not current status.)

JayRedd
01-17-2008, 11:13 PM
For everyone who wants to talk about the 20 & 10 thing let me make sure we are all on the same page.

Jermaine O'Neal avg. 20 & 10 and he is close to being an all-world player. One of the best in the league.

So when Carlos Boozer is avg. 23 & 11 he is?

Zach Randolph avg. 24 & 10 he is?

Pau Gasol avg. 20 & 10 he is?

Shareef Abdur-Rahim avg. 21 & 9 he is?

Clark Kellogg avg. 20 & 11 he is?

You see, like I said before, while 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at it doesn't make you one of the best in the league either.

For the past 18 months, Boozer has been better than JO ever was offensively, IMO.

Gasol and Randolph are both better post players.

Shareef was a notch below.

Never saw Clark.

None of them are close defensively and in fact are all average at best, with Boozer and Randolph being liabilities at times.

PS...This feels really weird mounting such a defense for a guy that I've never particularly loved and one that I wanted traded over a year ago.

Young
01-17-2008, 11:16 PM
You can't judge a player based only on stats IMO.

Duncan is probably the best power forward of all time. The guy is a winner.

KG was in a bad situation in Minnesota. Kevin McHale is a god awful GM IMO. The fact that the Timberwolves had the success they did is thanks to KG. KG has great skills, but also he makes others better on both sides of the court just like Tim does.

I don't believe that Drew Gooden is better. I think Drew is a decent big but defiantly not better than Jermaine. Jermaine is our best player, Drew is probably the Cavs 3rd. Huge difference in roles.

How would Jermaine have been without the injuries, the brawl, etc no will ever know. He has been a great PACER though. His best days are defiantly behind him sadly.

Peck
01-17-2008, 11:25 PM
You can't judge a player based only on stats IMO.

Duncan is probably the best power forward of all time. The guy is a winner.

KG was in a bad situation in Minnesota. Kevin McHale is a god awful GM IMO. The fact that the Timberwolves had the success they did is thanks to KG. KG has great skills, but also he makes others better on both sides of the court just like Tim does.

I don't believe that Drew Gooden is better. I think Drew is a decent big but defiantly not better than Jermaine. Jermaine is our best player, Drew is probably the Cavs 3rd. Huge difference in roles.

How would Jermaine have been without the injuries, the brawl, etc no will ever know. He has been a great PACER though. His best days are defiantly behind him sadly.

Again, not once have I said that Drew Gooden was better than Jermaine, not once did I say that Drew was even as good Jermaine.

I have said and will continue to say that Jermaine O'Neal is not significantly better than Drew Gooden.

Peck
01-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Shareef's prime (Pts/Rbs)

22.3/7.1
23.0/7.5
20.3/10.1
20.5/9.1
21.2/9.0
19.9/8.4
16.8/7.1

You said he had 8 years of 20/10.

I only consider three (four if you wanna get really liberal) of those to be actual "20/10s"...and only one is for real.

Not tryna nit-pick...just saying.

I also think Shareef never got his due since he was never on a team that wasn't absolutely horrible.

But, basically, if we call KG and TD both a 10 out of 10 as far as great PFs of the last decade, JO is an 8, Reef is a 7 and Drew Gooden is a 5. (This is talking about the past 5-10 years...not current status.)


True, I took some liberty's with the 20 & 10 numbers. Jermaine actually had 2 years of 20 & 10 so I figured tit for tat on that one.

Bball
01-17-2008, 11:37 PM
There are a lot of players that could be JO (and more) if given the opportunity and role he's been handed here since 2000.

-Bball

Young
01-17-2008, 11:41 PM
Again, not once have I said that Drew Gooden was better than Jermaine, not once did I say that Drew was even as good Jermaine.

I have said and will continue to say that Jermaine O'Neal is not significantly better than Drew Gooden.

I know that Peck. Sorry I wasn't trying to direct my post at you. Not really directed towards anyone in particular.

BlueNGold
01-18-2008, 06:45 PM
Potential is a funny word. Jon Bender had the potential to revolutionalize the power forward position, or some wise person once said.;)

I'm not talking about potential or alternate universes or whatever, I'm talking about what really happened and what is happening.

I see the wink, but I must say that any comparison with JB needs to be framed properly. To me, JB was nothing but potential. JO actually came within 80% of his potential.

And to your point, what really happened is that JO became, at best, an average #1 option or a great #2. IOW, he topped out at about #15 in the league at best. IMO, I think he reached #20 for sure....but that's not enough to qualify as a superstar. Lotta talk, but even that's gone now.

Peck
01-18-2008, 07:08 PM
I see the wink, but I must say that any comparison with JB needs to be framed properly. To me, JB was nothing but potential. JO actually came within 80% of his potential.

And to your point, what really happened is that JO became, at best, an average #1 option or a great #2. IOW, he topped out at about #15 in the league at best. IMO, I think he reached #20 for sure....but that's not enough to qualify as a superstar. Lotta talk, but even that's gone now.

Sadly the wink is at myself. I'm, ahem, the one who uttered that phrase at a digest party.

In my defense though Jose Slaughter had slipped a mickey into my Dr. Pepper so I wasn't in my right state of mind. :D

indygeezer
01-18-2008, 07:47 PM
Sadly the wink is at myself. I'm, ahem, the one who uttered that phrase at a digest party.

In my defense though Jose Slaughter had slipped a mickey into my Dr. Pepper so I wasn't in my right state of mind. :D

yeah, well I made that same prediction once, and followed it up with one about David Harrison...I have no cred.

BlueNGold
01-18-2008, 08:12 PM
Sadly the wink is at myself. I'm, ahem, the one who uttered that phrase at a digest party.

In my defense though Jose Slaughter had slipped a mickey into my Dr. Pepper so I wasn't in my right state of mind. :D

Don't feel too bad, I wouldn't have needed the mickey.

I was embedded in the JB bandwagon until the last wheel fell off. The guy had spectacular length, athleticism along with a nice stroke....so I heard. I also fell a bit for DH and Saras. :blush:

Me's dumb but honest...

Pacers4Life
01-18-2008, 08:16 PM
and will still laugh at me for when I said that Jermaine O'Neal was not significantly better than Drew Gooden.

Ahem....


2007-08 Statistics
Drew Gooden
PPG 12.1
RPG 8.9
APG 1.0
SPG 0.8
BPG 0.6
FG% 0.436
FT% 0.724
3P% 0.000
MPG 32.2

Jermaine O'Neal
PPG 15.8
RPG 7.4
APG 2.6
SPG 0.6
BPG 2.3
FG% 0.444
FT% 0.754
3P% 0.000
MPG 32.0

Now remember I have never once said that Drew was better or even as good as. I have always just said that I don't beleive that J.O. is heads and shoulders better.

As to those who will throw out the taking charges and blocking shots I will give it up to J.O. for that.

However I will add that Drew defends the better interior player almost every night as they try to protect Big Z from fouls.

So again J.O. is better, just not worlds better.

Oh not that I ever use salary to compare a players value but....

Drew Gooden 6,400,000

Jermaine O'Neal 19,710,000

Triple. Is J.O. triple better?

Anyway, I'm just feeling cantankerous tonight so I thought I would stir the pot.

Flame away.

wow, the fact that you're even trying to compare the 2 makes me question your fanhood. this topic is a joke

Peck
01-18-2008, 10:30 PM
wow, the fact that you're even trying to compare the 2 makes me question your fanhood. this topic is a joke

Care to elaborate?

Exactly how is my fanhood in question? Or are you saying my Jermaine O'Neal fanhood is in question, if that is the case then guilty as charged.

Cobol Sam
01-18-2008, 10:36 PM
wow, the fact that you're even trying to compare the 2 makes me question your fanhood. this topic is a joke

Remember that movie Parenthood? That was a good movie.

Shack80
01-18-2008, 11:43 PM
Seems lame to call people out and then say they are not playing by the rules you set, but what ever, this whole thing feels like an ego stroke.

quiller
01-19-2008, 04:35 AM
Peck, I do agree that in just taking a quick look it is hard to say that JO is worth the difference vrs a Gooden. I say he is still though it would take a lot of convincing I am sure.

But I also must add a few of my perceptions with others you listed before...

Gasol - does not have the post of ability of JO. Is a much better shooter. People complain about JO being soft... well so is Gasol. Gasol also is no where remotely close to JO defensively. JO can dominate and has even this year on the defensive end.

Randolf - I imagine it is a toss up on post up moves and he does shoot better from the outside. Might be better offensive rebounder? But again is no where close as a defender.

Sharif - I would consider him a small foward roll player.

Boozer - Does not have a good a post up game. Much better offensive rebounder. Still is not the defender JO is.

My point - There are very few players that have the over all game JO still has.. A proven low post scorer who you have to double team. Yes he currently is stopped rather easily with the double team as when facing a regular double team he will settle for the 15ft plus jumper which he stops hitting in the 4th qtr when he looses his legs. His other main value is his defensive ability in taking charges and blocking shots. Off hand I put him top 5.


I might have not expressed myself properly also when mentioning % of team but...


Last season JO scored 20.3% of the pacers points and got 23% of our rebounds. While Gooden got 11.6% of Clev's points and 19.5% of Clev's rebounds.

This season I would grant you the numbers are a lot closer but JO is still getting 1.5 more assists with only .5 a TO more, he also gets 2 more blocks a game and close to the same steals a game. The bad part is Gooden is getting more minutes a game.

I have changed my mind this season regarding the Pacers. My initial hope was 2nd round playoffs and a 4-5 seed after the first 2 months or so. Now frankly I do not care about the playoffs much and would prefer we even miss the playoffs for a better draft pick. We have 1 more year before we can unload Murph or Duns. Get one can't miss Post player or Point guard, keep JO and I think we have the makings of a solid contender again by 2010 and on.

PS> you do realize JO is shooting a better FG% then Gooden this year...

Peck
01-19-2008, 05:43 AM
Peck, I do agree that in just taking a quick look it is hard to say that JO is worth the difference vrs a Gooden. I say he is still though it would take a lot of convincing I am sure.

But I also must add a few of my perceptions with others you listed before...

Gasol - does not have the post of ability of JO. Is a much better shooter. People complain about JO being soft... well so is Gasol. Gasol also is no where remotely close to JO defensively. JO can dominate and has even this year on the defensive end.

Randolf - I imagine it is a toss up on post up moves and he does shoot better from the outside. Might be better offensive rebounder? But again is no where close as a defender.

Sharif - I would consider him a small foward roll player.

Boozer - Does not have a good a post up game. Much better offensive rebounder. Still is not the defender JO is.

My point - There are very few players that have the over all game JO still has.. A proven low post scorer who you have to double team. Yes he currently is stopped rather easily with the double team as when facing a regular double team he will settle for the 15ft plus jumper which he stops hitting in the 4th qtr when he looses his legs. His other main value is his defensive ability in taking charges and blocking shots. Off hand I put him top 5.


I might have not expressed myself properly also when mentioning % of team but...


Last season JO scored 20.3% of the pacers points and got 23% of our rebounds. While Gooden got 11.6% of Clev's points and 19.5% of Clev's rebounds.

This season I would grant you the numbers are a lot closer but JO is still getting 1.5 more assists with only .5 a TO more, he also gets 2 more blocks a game and close to the same steals a game. The bad part is Gooden is getting more minutes a game.

I have changed my mind this season regarding the Pacers. My initial hope was 2nd round playoffs and a 4-5 seed after the first 2 months or so. Now frankly I do not care about the playoffs much and would prefer we even miss the playoffs for a better draft pick. We have 1 more year before we can unload Murph or Duns. Get one can't miss Post player or Point guard, keep JO and I think we have the makings of a solid contender again by 2010 and on.

PS> you do realize JO is shooting a better FG% then Gooden this year...


Yes I do. That is why I have posted several times in this thread and will do so again, I have never said Drew Gooden was better than Jermaine. I have never said that Drew Gooden is even as good as Jermaine. I am just saying that I do not believe that Jermaine is all that much better than Gooden.

The reason I mentioned the ones above is not because I thought each of them was an all-world candidate. I just listed a few people who have had similar stats than J.O.

The reason I did this was because I wanted to see if people would be hypocritical or not.

You know if J.O.'s 20 & 10 makes him a beast, then I wondered if it applied to the others as well.

Seems like somehow Jermaines 20 points are really worth 30. ;)

Ok, I've had my fun with this. I'll probably let it drop from here.

Thank you everybody for participating.:D

Pacers4Life
01-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Care to elaborate?

Exactly how is my fanhood in question? Or are you saying my Jermaine O'Neal fanhood is in question, if that is the case then guilty as charged.

see, its one in the same to me. you have no control over what we end up doing with him, so why bash him like this? Drew Gooden is a joke as a player and to throw JO even remotely into the same category is outrageous.

You're looking for things to be wrong. I'm aware, as im sure everyone else of this forum is too, is that we're not playing real well right now. But that doesn't mean im going to allow a pacer to be judged like this, especially not when its JO who i still have complete faith in. Also i just returned from the kings game and know for a fact we would have won with JO playing. All im saying is don't waste our time with threads about how bad our current players are...we know. Suck it up and deal with it

Isaac
01-19-2008, 11:00 PM
I haven't read this entire thread, and I'm sure its already been brought up, but Drew Gooden is one of the worst low post defenders in the NBA and JO is one of the best. JO is not significantly better then Gooden offensively, but when you look at his impact on the defensive end it isn't even close.

Bball
01-20-2008, 12:02 AM
. Also i just returned from the kings game and know for a fact we would have won with JO playing.

Do you base that on our W/L record this year with him vs without him or some other data?

-Bball

Pacers4Life
01-20-2008, 04:09 AM
Do you base that on our W/L record this year with him vs without him or some other data?

-Bball

i base it off of what i saw. mikki moore had a field day and that **** just wouldn't have happened with JO defending down low. His defense is incredible and i don't think he gets enough love for it.

ChicagoPacer
01-20-2008, 04:47 AM
I guess it depends upon how you define "that much better". For me the FG% says it all. O'Neal is being asked to shoot 3-4 more times a game because the offense runs through him. Gooden isn't, and he's getting two or three easy baskets a game due to being on the court with James.

Yet somehow, O'Neal is shooting better.

The reality of it is, you throw Gooden on the court with this Pacers team and he probably is forced to take more shots, shoot only 40% from the floor and his scoring stays the same. To add to that, he would be forced to take on more defensive responsibility, and he would probably be dragging due to fatigue.

You put O'Neal on the Cavs, and he probably shoots the ball 13 times a game. This is more than Gooden now, but less than O'Neals 14-15 FGA per game currently. He probably gets 2-3 easy baskets a game from James. This would replace his forcing of poor shots because no one else can create--that would be James' responsibility on the Cavs. He probably averages 18-19 per game + 8-9 boards and he shoots over .500 from the floor. If the Cavs figured out a way to integrate him even better offensively, I could see him getting 20-22 a game and shooting .450+ easily. His responsibility to create offensively is reduced, so he would have a lot more left in the tank defensively. By my definition, he's a lot better than Gooden. The only reason it looks statistically close are team circumstances.

Kofi
01-20-2008, 02:34 PM
You made the comparison when J.O. was still putting up close to 20/10/3/3. He's certainly regressed a lot since then, so it's a little unfair to him. With that said, I do believe he's an average offensive player who's been made to look like a good scorer due to being given a lot of FGA's. I think 3/5ths of the guys in the NBA could average 18-20 a night if given enough shot attempts a la J.O., Gooden included. He's also at least as good, probably better, rebounder than J.O. But what separates the two is defense and passing. J.O. is light years ahead of Gooden when it comes to both. If Gooden could improve those two parts of his game, he'd be a 35 minute a night starter and LeBron James would be a much happier man.

I'd do J.O. for Gooden, filler, and a couple of unprotected 1sts. :)

Naptown_Seth
01-20-2008, 02:49 PM
8...1...same thing really.
That is great. :D

BTW, this is how I explain my Tequila shot consumption to the cops when I get pulled over.