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View Full Version : Sam Smith has a couple Pacer Blurbs



Will Galen
01-14-2008, 07:29 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080113samsmithonthenba,1,1682495.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

The Knicks' knack

They'd prefer to Fire Isiah in New York, so I'll have to work on rebuilding the team.

The Knicks need a point guard. A lot of teams do, but the Knicks really do—they're stuck with Stephon Marbury, and he should be a shooting guard. Jamal Crawford is a sixth-man shooter.

As Houston's Rafer Alston, a shooting point guard from New York, noted last week: "They need a floor general. Right now they have score-first guards. Some nights in the Knicks' box score, the guards only have two, three assists." I'm not sure it would be a great idea as New Yorkers returning home often hasn't worked. But it appears the Pacers are done with Jamaal Tinsley and are about to make some moves.

Travis Diener replaced Tinsley over the weekend, and while Tinsley had been having something of a revival season with Rick Carlisle gone, he probably cinched his exit last week.

The Pacers were playing the Suns tough in Phoenix, taking them to overtime. But Tinsley missed eight shots in the fourth quarter and still took 10 of the team's 11 shots in overtime.

A package including an activity player like Renaldo Balkman or Mardy Collins and an expiring contract ought to be enough for the Knicks to get him.


New Nets executive Kiki Vandeweghe, a great shooter in his time, listed his top shooters for the Newark Star Ledger: "There's no question Jerry West belongs there. He had the picture-perfect jump shot. You have to put Mark Price in there. He was textbook. Reggie Miller was one of the best, but he had his elbow out a little bit. Larry Bird had it behind his head a little bit. I would also put Dale Ellis in there: He was the best 'simple' shooter there ever was—just put it on his shoulder and shot-put it up. Jerry Lucas was like that—on the shoulder, bang."

indygeezer
01-14-2008, 07:38 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080113samsmithonthenba,1,1682495.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

The Knicks' knack

They'd prefer to Fire Isiah in New York, so I'll have to work on rebuilding the team.

The Knicks need a point guard. A lot of teams do, but the Knicks really do—they're stuck with Stephon Marbury, and he should be a shooting guard. Jamal Crawford is a sixth-man shooter.

As Houston's Rafer Alston, a shooting point guard from New York, noted last week: "They need a floor general. Right now they have score-first guards. Some nights in the Knicks' box score, the guards only have two, three assists." I'm not sure it would be a great idea as New Yorkers returning home often hasn't worked. But it appears the Pacers are done with Jamaal Tinsley and are about to make some moves.

Travis Diener replaced Tinsley over the weekend, and while Tinsley had been having something of a revival season with Rick Carlisle gone, he probably cinched his exit last week.

The Pacers were playing the Suns tough in Phoenix, taking them to overtime. But Tinsley missed eight shots in the fourth quarter and still took 10 of the team's 11 shots in overtime.

A package including an activity player like Renaldo Balkman or Mardy Collins and an expiring contract ought to be enough for the Knicks to get him.


New Nets executive Kiki Vandeweghe, a great shooter in his time, listed his top shooters for the Newark Star Ledger: "There's no question Jerry West belongs there. He had the picture-perfect jump shot. You have to put Mark Price in there. He was textbook. Reggie Miller was one of the best, but he had his elbow out a little bit. Larry Bird had it behind his head a little bit. I would also put Dale Ellis in there: He was the best 'simple' shooter there ever was—just put it on his shoulder and shot-put it up. Jerry Lucas was like that—on the shoulder, bang."


I thought somebody around here had theorized that JT took all of those shots with JOB's knowledge if not blessing.

Unclebuck
01-14-2008, 08:00 AM
That is interesting. I have to give it some thought .

There was something about Tinsley's game last night against the Warriors that reminded me of the Jamaal from the past two or three seasons than the Jamaal from this season. Not sure why, but his defense was behind bad again and he seemed to have a really weird look on his face.

Unclebuck
01-14-2008, 08:01 AM
I thought somebody around here had theorized that JT took all of those shots with JOB's knowledge if not blessing.

I think it was with O'Brien's blessing that JT had the ball and was trying to create offense, I hardly think that Jim was happy with every shot that Jamaal took.

I wonder if Sam is getting this info from his sources or if he is just making a stabb at a rumor

LoneGranger33
01-14-2008, 09:28 AM
There was something about Tinsley's game last night against the Warriors that reminded me of the Jamaal from the past two or three seasons than the Jamaal from this season. Not sure why, but his defense was behind bad again and he seemed to have a really weird look on his face.

He starting playing grudge ball when Ellis intercepted his pass.

idioteque
01-14-2008, 09:38 AM
I'd take Balkman over Collins.

Smith is off the mark on this one, however, with our situation at PG, I don't think we'd trade Tinsley unless we got a PG (even if it is only backup caliber) in return. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking only about the lack of talent at PG, but moreso the lack of even warm bodies to play the position.

Arcadian
01-14-2008, 09:44 AM
I wonder if Sam is getting this info from his sources or if he is just making a stabb at a rumor

It is Monday.

TD didn't replace Tinsley either.

Unclebuck
01-14-2008, 09:45 AM
I'd take Balkman over Collins.

Smith is off the mark on this one, however, with our situation at PG, I don't think we'd trade Tinsley unless we got a PG (even if it is only backup caliber) in return. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking only about the lack of talent at PG, but moreso the lack of even warm bodies to play the position.

I agree, unless we are planning and have in the works a couple of trades one of which will bring in a point guard.

blanket
01-14-2008, 09:55 AM
Tinsley and Harrison for Collins and Malik Rose?

or just Tinsley for Collins and Jerome James?

Major Cold
01-14-2008, 11:01 AM
knowing the knicks we would get some picks

JayRedd
01-14-2008, 11:15 AM
Though we don't exactly need another SF, Renaldo would be oh so fantastic for us. That's our lockdown perimeter player right there, and his energy and knack for rebounding/grabbing loose balls is both uncanny and infectious. I would absolutely love a deal where we give up JT and Quis for Balkman and Q.

Hicks
01-14-2008, 11:16 AM
I'd be all for getting Balkman and an expiring contract, but I'll believe it when I see, which means I never will.

indygeezer
01-14-2008, 11:37 AM
I see where Starbury was inexplicably DNP last night.

Rajah Brown
01-14-2008, 11:46 AM
Does NY still own their 1st rounder this year ?

esabyrn333
01-14-2008, 11:51 AM
I would love this. 2 contracts that end after next year same time we will need it to resign granger, Diogu or go after a free agent. I would be happy if we did this and just told Starbury to stay home. See if we can buy him out or just wait it out. Malik we could use he knows the what defense is at least. Curry would do better closer to his home town and in a smaller market. NY is hard to play in. Plus we cut the connection to the brawl and we get rid of the franchis killer aka Murphy. We go young and see what happens with Williams and Diogu at the PF spot with Curry and Foster at Center. We will probably in the hunt for a top 3 pick but the way I see it I think I could live seeing Gordon or Rose in a pacers uniform next year.





Change in Team Outlook: -9.3 ppg, -8.6 rpg, and -7.4 apg.

<TABLE class=breakdowntable width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TH scope=col colSpan=2>Incoming Players</TH></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Rose_Malik_nyk.jpg </TD><TD>Malik Rose
6-7 PF from Drexel
1.8 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 0.4 apg in 9.5 minutes </TD></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Curry_Eddy_nyk.jpg </TD><TD class=even>Eddy Curry
6-11 C from Thornwood (HS)
14.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 27.7 minutes </TD></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Marbury_Stephon_nyk.jpg </TD><TD>Stephon Marbury
6-2 PG from Georgia Tech
13.9 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 4.7 apg in 33.5 minutes </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=breakdowntable width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TH scope=col colSpan=2>1st Round pick


Outgoing Players
</TH></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Tinsley_Jamaal_ind.jpg </TD><TD>Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
13.4 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 8.5 apg in 34.4 minutes</TD></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Murphy_Troy_ind.jpg </TD><TD class=even>Troy Murphy
6-11 PF from Notre Dame
10.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 apg in 26.1 minutes</TD></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/ONeal_Jermaine_ind.jpg </TD><TD>Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
15.8 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 2.6 apg in 32.0 minutes</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

avoidingtheclowns
01-14-2008, 12:05 PM
given how hard JOB runs practices... i kinda think trading for curry is a bad idea.




Former Bull Eddy Curry took a shot at Chicago GM John Paxson for his timing on the Scott Skiles firing.

"It was crazy they let him go Christmas Eve," Curry said.

Paxson would not give Curry a long-term deal because of his irregular heartbeat. Curry is not a fan of Paxson - or of Skiles.

"He's extremely hard on you, especially (when) you're going as hard as you can and he continues to push us," Curry said. "I'm pretty sure you can only take so much."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01082008/sports/knicks/cold_q_headed_to_bench_457512.htm




also, when was the last time sam smith was right about anything?

Anthem
01-14-2008, 12:14 PM
I strongly dislike Curry. I'd rather something like this.

JO/Murph/Tins/Hulk for
Starbury/Rose/Lee/Balkman/Collins/Morris.

NY has no picks this year, and no 2nd-rounder next year.

Will Galen
01-14-2008, 12:32 PM
I strongly dislike Curry. I'd rather something like this.

JO/Murph/Tins/Hulk for
Starbury/Rose/Lee/Balkman/Collins/Morris.

NY has no picks this year, and no 2nd-rounder next year.

New York actually has their own first round pick this year. (#3 right now)
Utah only gets it if it's 24th or beyond. It's top 23 protected.

There's just no way I see the Knicks not having their own pick.

Will Galen
01-14-2008, 01:07 PM
More on NY.

The following article speculates that Isiah is wanting to get fired.

I've thought for some time isiah's been messing up to get a good pick in the draft and Dolan was down with it, thus the reason Isiah hasn't been fired.

It would appear everyone in NY wants Isiah out of the Knick job, including Isiah, and Dolan. The difference is Isiah wants to be fired so he can collect his full contract, and Dolan wants him to just quit, so he won't have to pay him. That means this could get interesting.

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/

Question: Has there been conjecture about an Artest/Shareef (Abdur-Rahim)/(Kenny) Thomas trade to New York for Stephon Marbury with David Lee and/or a first round pick? This would free-up $21 million after next season. It would also allow the Kings to trade Bibby to Miami for Udonis Haslem, Jason Williams and a draft pick reducing salaries by $9 million after this season. When Kevin Martin's new contract kicks-in next year, the Kings will have to pay a luxury tax. Marbury, Martin, Salmons, Haslem, Miller starting with Beno, Francisco Garcia and Mikki Moore/Lee off the bench is solid and the picks and cap room after 2008-09 facilitate a major improvement in the roster. - H Cardinal, Carmichael, Calif.

Answer: Truthfully, I don't have the time to check all your work but I like where you're going for the most part. First off, I'm wondering if everything regarding New York is on hold again. Numerous league sources have informed me that embattled Knicks coach Isiah Thomas has been turning down decent deals left and right, meanwhile driving those around him in Knicks Land batty and, according to the New York Daily News, possibly pushing owner Joe Dolan to fire him (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/01/12/2008-01-12_source_james_dolan_leaning_toward_firing.html). They have been dangling Jamal Crawford in discussions, but I'm told they still won't give up David Lee. That much is bad news for the Kings, who have shown an interest in Lee in the past and would certainly want him in any Artest deal.
-------------



So, what if Isiah is wanting to make trades, but Dolan is telling him no? Thus Isiah secures a good draft pick for the Knicks and then Dolan fires him after the season, or after the Knicks are assured or a good lottery pick.

BoomBaby33
01-14-2008, 01:08 PM
That is interesting. I have to give it some thought .

There was something about Tinsley's game last night against the Warriors that reminded me of the Jamaal from the past two or three seasons than the Jamaal from this season. Not sure why, but his defense was behind bad again and he seemed to have a really weird look on his face.

I thought the same thing UB. I think he might have taken it personally when Deiner went nuts against the Kings and Tins only got 5 minutes in the second half of that game.

Not sure of this speculation, but maybe he has a power trip, whether it be AJ, Saras, Army, McLeod, or now Deiner and Owens getting his minutes. Maybe he sees he is not the heir apparent again and feels threatened again. If thats the case, then he has proven again that he can be a horrible teammate. Kills chemistry on the floor and in the locker room.

bnd45
01-14-2008, 01:10 PM
As I mentioned in the postgame thread Tinsley was somehwere else last night. That was the first game he's really given less than 100% in a long time. (The lazy passing, no d, and bickering with Dunleavy and Granger would be my 3 examples of him mailing it in). I have it on good authority that he bolted from the locker room very quickly last night. If these type of games start piling up than we definitely have to move him. It's sad because the Pacers have given Tinsley chance after chance to turn it around and he refuses to change.

I know it sounds crazy, but I'd take a chance on Marbury for at least the rest of the season. We only have two ways to go with Starbury running the point: He either a) turns it around, plays up to his potential and gets us to the playoffs or b) continues to be the same old Starbury, meaning we continue to suck and drop down even farther record wise which would give us a legit shot at Eric Gordon.

aero
01-14-2008, 01:15 PM
I want david lee....

Rajah Brown
01-14-2008, 01:23 PM
JT is about as stable emotionally as T.O. is. He's only happy
when he's being coddled and everything is going his way.

If the Knicks want him, I'd be on the phone ASAP.

Bball
01-14-2008, 01:46 PM
Could it be Tinsley is uncoachable.. Isiah was finished with him. Rick was finished with him. Now there's friction and we're on our 3rd coach??

This is the kind of crap that has the Pacers in the mess they are in now with fans. We try and coddle the problem rather than just taking our medicine, cutting out the cancer, and then moving on.

We hold out WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past the expiration date on a player, likely over-valuing him along the way, and then end up thoroughly behind the 8-Ball when the festering problem is spotlighted for the whole league to see.

Until management and/or ownership changes that modus operandi, we're screwed. And if they don't change it they'll end up blaming fans for their need to move the franchise when in reality to find the real reason, all they need to do is look in the mirror.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-14-2008, 01:49 PM
As I mentioned in the postgame thread Tinsley was somehwere else last night. That was the first game he's really given less than 100% in a long time. (The lazy passing, no d, and bickering with Dunleavy and Granger would be my 3 examples of him mailing it in). I have it on good authority that he bolted from the locker room very quickly last night. If these type of games start piling up than we definitely have to move him. It's sad because the Pacers have given Tinsley chance after chance to turn it around and he refuses to change.

I know it sounds crazy, but I'd take a chance on Marbury for at least the rest of the season. We only have two ways to go with Starbury running the point: He either a) turns it around, plays up to his potential and gets us to the playoffs or b) continues to be the same old Starbury, meaning we continue to suck and drop down even farther record wise which would give us a legit shot at Eric Gordon.


My Tinsley tolerence level is very low. I do not like hearing that. I hate doing this and I often criticize others for making such assumptions based upon a very short glimpse - but Tinsley did not look too happy on the bench in the second half of the Kings game. He probably was not happy with being replaced by Travis.

The Pacers basically gave this team to Tinsley this season - he's been allowed to play exactly as he always wanted - but it appears he might be throwing one of his notorious fits. (anyone want to make any bets on whether he plays Wednesday night)

bnd45
01-14-2008, 01:51 PM
Are you suggesting that JT's sinus problems might flare up during the flight home?

Speed
01-14-2008, 01:56 PM
As I mentioned in the postgame thread Tinsley was somehwere else last night. That was the first game he's really given less than 100% in a long time. (The lazy passing, no d, and bickering with Dunleavy and Granger would be my 3 examples of him mailing it in). I have it on good authority that he bolted from the locker room very quickly last night. If these type of games start piling up than we definitely have to move him. It's sad because the Pacers have given Tinsley chance after chance to turn it around and he refuses to change.

I know it sounds crazy, but I'd take a chance on Marbury for at least the rest of the season. We only have two ways to go with Starbury running the point: He either a) turns it around, plays up to his potential and gets us to the playoffs or b) continues to be the same old Starbury, meaning we continue to suck and drop down even farther record wise which would give us a legit shot at Eric Gordon.

Stephon would be trading for worse, that is the wrong move, BY FAR, imho. Thats just worsening your position for the future.

However, IF you are going to trade Tins, which you almost can't still because you don't have ANYONE that can play the position, full time, but NOW is the time to do it. His value has to be higher right now then its been in a long while. If you even had a Lester Conner or a Anthony Johnson or you know decent consistent legit back up, you could do it without it looking like a white flag.

I think Bird will do nothing, which his mindset needs to be NOT to take on additional years or contracts at this point.

The ideal trade for Bird is an expiring contract and a role playing bench guy, clearly.

It really has gotten to the point where you are trying to unload contracts, not for cap space because honestly no one cares if how much we pay these guys, we want a winner and as has been pointed out, space means nothing if you can't get impact guys to sign. The point for unloading contracts is to stop being stuck in the middle, its that simple.

They aren't going for a championship with this group, no matter what, its more than one great trade away from doing so.

I think if you can get a guy like Lee or Balkman, its perfect. A role player you can keep for a decent amount and is a difference maker who will grow, while they suck and you can bring in some young talent through the draft to start over. Eric Gordon type is exactly right, thats where their head needs to be now because stuck in the middle is by far the worse place to be.

Has Mardy Collins become a player, I thought he was really bad early in his career, maybe he's turned a corner?

JayRedd
01-14-2008, 01:57 PM
We hold out WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past the expiration date on a player, likely over-valuing him along the way, and then end up thoroughly behind the 8-Ball when the festering problem is spotlighted for the whole league to see.

Until management and/or ownership changes that modus operandi, we're screwed. And if they don't change it they'll end up blaming fans for their need to move the franchise when in reality to find the real reason, all they need to do is look in the mirror.

-Bball

I'm not saying I disagree with you (not saying I agree entirely either ;)) but in the case of JT, it's not like he's had any trade value for about three years now. About half a season after he signed that extension it became obvious we gave him too many years and that is gonna scare most teams off. I'm pretty confident in saying that I doubt there has been virtually any interest in Tinsley by any GM in this League for quite a while now and, in fact, his long contract is actually a negative asset in any trade scenario (as in, "if you take our Jamaal problem, we'll take your Murphy problem" type negative asset).

indygeezer
01-14-2008, 02:05 PM
Whatever happend to the "new coach honeymoon" we were promised? I thought we were supposed to have a good year based upon that alone. If this is "good" what would the year have been like without a new coach???

Bball
01-14-2008, 02:16 PM
I'm not saying I disagree with you (not saying I agree entirely either ;)) but in the case of JT, it's not like he's had any trade value for about three years now. About half a season after he signed that extension it became obvious we gave him too many years and that is gonna scare most teams off. I'm pretty confident in saying that I doubt there has been virtually any interest in Tinsley by any GM in this League for quite a while now and, in fact, his long contract is actually a negative asset in any trade scenario (as in, "if you take our Jamaal problem, we'll take your Murphy problem" type negative asset).

We've had the option of sitting Tinsley until he rots or his legend grows (whichever comes first) while we move on with other options. Instead, we keep making moves with Tinsley in the picture. There's always the buyout option. And we don't know that someone somewhere wouldn't make a trash for trash trade. As long as the trash is not a malcontent then we'd not be hurt by that. Just getting rid of Tinsley and forcing us to start dealing with a post-Tinsley Pacer team would be a major start in repairing the chasm between fans and the Pacers.

Plus, you have to go back to look at even offering the extension too. My point wasn't just about where we are now, it's how we got here.

Is there anyone left who doesn't think Tinsley is the "bad egg" Reggie referred to?

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-14-2008, 02:20 PM
I think O'Brien's history proves that he won't play someone just because management wants him to or because a player makes a lot of money. Should be interesting.

OakMoses
01-14-2008, 03:06 PM
I think O'Brien's history proves that he won't play someone just because management wants him to or because a player makes a lot of money. Should be interesting.

It's interesting to think of this situation in the terms of a punishment/response perspective.

O'Brien is not happy with Tinsley's play at the end of the Phoenix game.
O'Brien sits Tins at the end of the next game.
He gives him a chance the next game.
Tins responds with a silly flagrant foul that ignites Monta Ellis, then does not step up his own game one bit.

Now the ball's in O'Brien's court. We'll see what he does with it.

CableKC
01-14-2008, 04:03 PM
It's interesting to think of this situation in the terms of a punishment/response perspective.

O'Brien is not happy with Tinsley's play at the end of the Phoenix game.
O'Brien sits Tins at the end of the next game.
He gives him a chance the next game.
Tins responds with a silly flagrant foul that ignites Monta Ellis, then does not step up his own game one bit.

Now the ball's in O'Brien's court. We'll see what he does with it.
Although I didn't like the Flagrant foul that Tinsley gave Ellis.....doesn't he do that from time to time whenever some PG gets the drop on a Tinsley pass and instead of getting a clean foul to stop the play.......he decides to give him a hard foul?

I'm just suggesting that this is normal Tinsley behavior as opposed to behavior that was spurred by JO'Bs actions.

BruceLeeroy
01-14-2008, 04:18 PM
Although I didn't like the Flagrant foul that Tinsley gave Ellis.....doesn't he do that from time to time whenever some PG gets the drop on a Tinsley pass and instead of getting a clean foul to stop the play.......he decides to give him a hard foul?

I'm just suggesting that this is normal Tinsley behavior as opposed to behavior that was spurred by JO'Bs actions.

I Don't think he meant that was spurred on by the coach. He Just said he gave him another chance to prove himself in the fourth and let us down.

The foul was just another classic punk move by JT. He's gotta go now. I don't care if we win another game this year with him on this team or lose everyone without him.

Anthem
01-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Although I didn't like the Flagrant foul that Tinsley gave Ellis.....doesn't he do that from time to time whenever some PG gets the drop on a Tinsley pass and instead of getting a clean foul to stop the play.......he decides to give him a hard foul?
The Tinsley foul wasn't dirty. It wasn't smart, but it wasn't "dirty."

BruceLeeroy
01-14-2008, 04:27 PM
The Tinsley foul wasn't dirty. It wasn't smart, but it wasn't "dirty."

I'd consider any flagrant foul to be dirty. That's why they call it a flagrant.

esabyrn333
01-14-2008, 04:33 PM
I strongly dislike Curry. I'd rather something like this.

JO/Murph/Tins/Hulk for
Starbury/Rose/Lee/Balkman/Collins/Morris.

NY has no picks this year, and no 2nd-rounder next year.


I was trying to be realistic. Having JO/Curry/Randolph on the same team won't happen. I would be happy with not even getting a pick. I believe it is obvious no matter what Tinsley does the general fan base won't embrace him. JO is like a girl you meet on the rebound after a long relationship. After having Reggie for all of those years you rush into something with the next girl but no mater what she does she can't get out of the ex's shadow. JO will always be the Rebound girl. Murphy is Murphy. I would RENT Starbury and Rose for a year and a half to get to the next step and rebuild this team and start a new age of pacers basketball.

esabyrn333
01-14-2008, 04:35 PM
PG Diener/Owens
SG Dunleavy
SF Granger
PF Williams
C Foster

I could handle this for the rest of the year if I knew we had a chance to build a winner through the draft.

Bball
01-14-2008, 04:39 PM
JO will always be the Rebound girl.

For whatever reason, I started reading this post at that sentence and it gave the post a whole 'nother meaning! I thought it was a slam on his rebounding ( especially in light of last night's 'boxout' (or lack thereof) that was basically the final nail in the coffin of the game).

-Bball

OakMoses
01-14-2008, 04:43 PM
I'd consider any flagrant foul to be dirty. That's why they call it a flagrant.

I actually don't mind a good hard foul at all. I'd love for the Pacers to be considered a tough team that would pound on you physically. I don't mean a dirty team, just a team that's going to make their fouls count.

Tinsley's foul, however, was just stupid. He didn't intimidate Monta Ellis, he ignited him. Then, once Monta stepped it up and responded, Tins dissapeared and didn't respond to the challenge that he issued. In other words, Tins let up on him after the foul.

Reggie wasn't always the cleanest player on the floor, we all know that, but he was a master of mind games. He was one of the best players in NBA history at getting under his opponent's skin and throwing them off their game. I think that's what Tins was trying to do with the foul. However, he failed to follow up on it to fairly disastrous effects.

BruceLeeroy
01-14-2008, 04:59 PM
I actually don't mind a good hard foul at all. I'd love for the Pacers to be considered a tough team that would pound on you physically. I don't mean a dirty team, just a team that's going to make their fouls count.

Tinsley's foul, however, was just stupid. He didn't intimidate Monta Ellis, he ignited him. Then, once Monta stepped it up and responded, Tins dissapeared and didn't respond to the challenge that he issued. In other words, Tins let up on him after the foul.

Reggie wasn't always the cleanest player on the floor, we all know that, but he was a master of mind games. He was one of the best players in NBA history at getting under his opponent's skin and throwing them off their game. I think that's what Tins was trying to do with the foul. However, he failed to follow up on it to fairly disastrous effects.

I wouldn't give JT that much credit. He was mad he just got his pass stolen so instead of simply wrapping up Monte he body checked him and then told him he didn't want none:rolleyes:. I'd consider that dirty and so did the refs. If it was just a stupid foul they wouldn't have called it a flagrant.

jmoney2584
01-14-2008, 05:06 PM
please, no trades without incoming picks..this draft is going to be real solid...we should take advantage of that in every way, shape, and form possible. If Larry doesn't know this then he is not doing his scouting right. If there is any season in the past several years to blow up a team and rebuild, this is the one. Maybe the Pacers not offing JO in the summer was a blessing in disguise and it will help us if we rebuild...i hope so anyway, if we finish .500 on the season i will crap myself. I will die from crapping myself because I will be so sick to my stomach that all the nutrients i eat will just be expelled through one hole or another. Mediocrity is NOT an option. Championship or bust..and frankly we are no where near one of those so BUST this team open.

Anthem
01-14-2008, 05:16 PM
I'd consider any flagrant foul to be dirty. That's why they call it a flagrant.
I didn't consider it a flagrant foul. Bad call on the official's part.

CableKC
01-14-2008, 05:17 PM
please, no trades without incoming picks..this draft is going to be real solid...we should take advantage of that in every way, shape, and form possible. If Larry doesn't know this then he is not doing his scouting right. If there is any season in the past several years to blow up a team and rebuild, this is the one. Maybe the Pacers not offing JO in the summer was a blessing in disguise and it will help us if we rebuild...i hope so anyway, if we finish .500 on the season i will crap myself. I will die from crapping myself because I will be so sick to my stomach that all the nutrients i eat will just be expelled through one hole or another. Mediocrity is NOT an option. Championship or bust..and frankly we are no where near one of those so BUST this team open.
I would like to believe that we are going to rebuild....but am I the only one that thinks that TPTB are treating this entire season as a "shakedown" year where we implement our "new found" offense, ride out the entire season to see who fits and who doesn't fit and then wait til the 2008-2009 offseason to make whatever trades we need to make so that we can continue this effort to retool ( rather then rebuild ) for the Playoffs?

The only way that I think that we will make a trade before the trade deadline is IF the right deal comes along. Otherwise...I think that we are stuck with this roster and all that comes along with it until the offseason.

Bball
01-14-2008, 05:20 PM
I would like to believe that we are going to rebuild....but am I the only one that thinks that TPTB are treating this entire season as a "shakedown" year where we implement our "new found" offense, ride out the entire season to see who fits and who doesn't fit and then wait til the 2008-2009 offseason to make whatever trades we need to make so that we can continue this effort to retool ( rather then rebuild ) for the Playoffs?

The only way that I think that we will make a trade before the trade deadline is IF the right deal comes along. Otherwise...I think that we are stuck with this roster and all that comes along with it until the offseason.

With our management and ownership we are always waiting to see something.

It's time to quit waiting and just make something start happening!

-Bball

Hicks
01-14-2008, 05:21 PM
Am I the only one on the planet who thought calling Tinsley for a flagrant was a horrible call? I guess so.

BoomBaby33
01-14-2008, 05:30 PM
Am I the only one on the planet who thought calling Tinsley for a flagrant was a horrible call? I guess so.

No Mal, your not, I didn't think it was that much either.

jmoney2584
01-14-2008, 05:31 PM
Am I the only one on the planet who thought calling Tinsley for a flagrant was a horrible call? I guess so.

I'm neither here nor there on it really, I enjoy physical play and letting the other team know where you stand on things...but it could have gone either way really. I hate to sit in the middle on that one but I do, it was called yea but it could have been not called and i would have been fine with either. I'm more concerned with the flagrant GAME he played, stuff was way uncool man, way uncool.

jmoney2584
01-14-2008, 05:35 PM
I would like to believe that we are going to rebuild....but am I the only one that thinks that TPTB are treating this entire season as a "shakedown" year where we implement our "new found" offense, ride out the entire season to see who fits and who doesn't fit and then wait til the 2008-2009 offseason to make whatever trades we need to make so that we can continue this effort to retool ( rather then rebuild ) for the Playoffs?

The only way that I think that we will make a trade before the trade deadline is IF the right deal comes along. Otherwise...I think that we are stuck with this roster and all that comes along with it until the offseason.

A deal is not just going to "come along", no one calls like "Hey..uh, so Larry...I was sitting around today and I got to thinking...how about I give you some picks and expiring contracts, all I want from you is Troy Murphy, Ike Diougu, and David Harrison. I've been thinking, you know, those guys aren't doing so hot for you and I think I would love the chance to have them on my squad". We have to actively SEARCH for what we need and I'm afraid that isn't happening. I hope I'm wrong though, because I feel a poop coming on.

But I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye on this rebuild thing.

Will Galen
01-14-2008, 05:49 PM
I'd consider any flagrant foul to be dirty. That's why they call it a flagrant.

No it's not. A type 2 flagrant could be termed dirty, yes. But not all flagrants are dirty play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagrant_foul
NBA flagrant fouls

In basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball), a personal foul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_foul) is a breach of the rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules) that concerns illegal personal contact with an opponent. The NBA flagrant foul rule was enacted in the 1990's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990%27s) as an attempt to deter contact which, in addition to being against the rules, puts an opponent's safety and health at risk. The terminology in the NBA rulebook (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_index.html) for contact that puts safety and health at risk is unnecessary and/or excessive contact.

Types of flagrant fouls
The flagrant foul rule is described in several subsections of NBA Rule Number 12. The most extensive section is 12B (Personal Fouls) Section IV (Flagrant Fouls). There are two types of flagrant fouls defined, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 2 is the more serious infraction. A type 2 flagrant foul results in immediate ejection, whereas two Type 1 flagrant fouls are required before the player is ejected. Although the delineation between these two rules has evolved, the general distinction has been whether the excessive contact was intentional.
-------------


You could be chasing a player with the intention of fouling him and he could zig when you expected him to zag and you could foul him much harder than intended and be called for a flagrant. That's NOT dirty play!

You want to see a classic dirty player, see some film if Bill Lambeer.

Ragnar
01-14-2008, 05:58 PM
Did anyone notice this is Sam Smith writing this? He has less credibility than Dan Rather. If this had come from Vescey I would be worried but Sam Smith shoots in the dark with drunken abandon all the time.

Will Galen
01-14-2008, 06:17 PM
It seems a lot of people on here would approve of a bad trade just to do something. However they would later be the posters yelling loudest that it was a bad trade.

For a trade to work both teams have to be getting something they want, and no one wants the other teams castoffs.

We got JO why? Not because Portland wanted to give him up. It was because Portland thought they needed one more experienced big to get by LA.

So what is needed is to find a team that needs a point guard bad, and has something we want.

Will Galen
01-14-2008, 06:30 PM
Did anyone notice this is Sam Smith writing this? He has less credibility than Dan Rather. If this had come from Vescey I would be worried but Sam Smith shoots in the dark with drunken abandon all the time.

All Sam really said is it appears the Pacers are done with Jamaal Tinsley and are about to make some moves. I don't see that as shooting in the dark. Anyone that saw that game would conclude the Pacers weren't happy with Tinsley's performance at the end of that game.

As for us about to make some moves. we'll see. To get rid of Tinsley we will have to get something back we want or there's no use trading him.

BruceLeeroy
01-14-2008, 08:44 PM
No it's not. A type 2 flagrant could be termed dirty, yes. But not all flagrants are dirty play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagrant_foul
NBA flagrant fouls

In basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball), a personal foul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_foul) is a breach of the rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules) that concerns illegal personal contact with an opponent. The NBA flagrant foul rule was enacted in the 1990's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990%27s) as an attempt to deter contact which, in addition to being against the rules, puts an opponent's safety and health at risk. The terminology in the NBA rulebook (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_index.html) for contact that puts safety and health at risk is unnecessary and/or excessive contact.

Types of flagrant fouls
The flagrant foul rule is described in several subsections of NBA Rule Number 12. The most extensive section is 12B (Personal Fouls) Section IV (Flagrant Fouls). There are two types of flagrant fouls defined, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 2 is the more serious infraction. A type 2 flagrant foul results in immediate ejection, whereas two Type 1 flagrant fouls are required before the player is ejected. Although the delineation between these two rules has evolved, the general distinction has been whether the excessive contact was intentional.
-------------


You could be chasing a player with the intention of fouling him and he could zig when you expected him to zag and you could foul him much harder than intended and be called for a flagrant. That's NOT dirty play!

You want to see a classic dirty player, see some film if Bill Lambeer.

I don't see anywhere in there that says a flagrant 1 isn't a dirty foul. To me it just says a flagrant 2 is just more serious or dangerous. IMO if it's an illegal foul it's a dirty one. Unless like some believe he was trying to motivate his teammates or trying to strike fear into his opponent:rolleyes:. Then I could accept it. I see what you're trying to say Will although I've never seen a flagrant called with the scenario you mentioned but I have seen incidental contact called flagrant when a players going up for a layup or dunk. Most often you see it called when there is no attempt at the ball which was the case last night. If you think the foul was unintentional then OK but what I saw last night was a frustrated player making a hard foul without going for the basketball and then running his mouth afterwards. That's dirty.

You guys can say what you want but I'd say the refs are better qualified to determine what's a flagrant and what's not. Tinsley wasn't going for the ball. It's that simple. I'm sure the **** talking didn't help his case either. This isn't the 80's fellas. You can't get away with what you used to.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2008, 09:02 PM
New Nets executive Kiki Vandeweghe, a great shooter in his time, listed his top shooters for the Newark Star Ledger: "There's no question Jerry West belongs there. He had the picture-perfect jump shot. You have to put Mark Price in there.
And by Bird proxy you have to add Travis Diener. ;)

No offense ballboy, we love ya anyway.


A Tinsley move makes sense but Indy would want another PG somehow. JO's deal for Marbury make financial sense, but the Knicks just don't need JO at all and Marbury here would just be to get out of the cap space a year early. To me that's way too soon to take that on. Wait till his final season.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2008, 09:11 PM
More on NY.

The following article speculates that Isiah is wanting to get fired.

I've thought for some time isiah's been messing up to get a good pick in the draft and Dolan was down with it, thus the reason Isiah hasn't been fired.

It would appear everyone in NY wants Isiah out of the Knick job, including Isiah, and Dolan. The difference is Isiah wants to be fired so he can collect his full contract, and Dolan wants him to just quit, so he won't have to pay him. That means this could get interesting.
Remember that Seinfeld episode where they want George to quit but won't fire him? They move his office, etc, and even finally board it up. But he keeps it up and finds a way in anyway.

And now this will play out for real. Beautiful.

Hoop
01-14-2008, 09:11 PM
Am I the only one on the planet who thought calling Tinsley for a flagrant was a horrible call? I guess so.I thought it was a horrible call too. If Ellis hadn't reacted the way he did, I don't think it would have been called flagrant. Not sure why it was called flagrant anyway though.

JayRedd
01-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Remember that Seinfeld episode where they want George to quit but won't fire him? They move his office, etc, and even finally board it up. But he keeps it up and finds a way in anyway.

And now this will play out for real. Beautiful.

Yup...this will certainly Play Now.

My prediction, Isiah ends up dropping a balloon full of oil out a window onto Anucha Brown-Sanders while Starbury is yelling "Helllllll-OOOO."

Young
01-14-2008, 10:37 PM
It seems a lot of people on here would approve of a bad trade just to do something. However they would later be the posters yelling loudest that it was a bad trade.

For a trade to work both teams have to be getting something they want, and no one wants the other teams castoffs.

We got JO why? Not because Portland wanted to give him up. It was because Portland thought they needed one more experienced big to get by LA.

So what is needed is to find a team that needs a point guard bad, and has something we want.


Amen to that.

It's very difficult to make any trades in the NBA. I think based on Bird's comments in that radio interview that he wants to make some moves and stuff but it's much easier said than done.

I don't know about the Knicks wanting Jamaal. I don't know if Thomas and Tinsley really got along and I don't know that Thomas and Bird make a deal with each other.

Maybe the Heat would have some interest in Jamaal. However it would probably leave us with Travis as our starting point guard.

What about the Clippers? They may have a little interest in Jamaal.

I just feel for someone to take on Jamaal's contract it will be very difficult ever if the Pacers were to add a pick, Ike, Jeff, etc to the deal.

I think we are stuck with this roster until the off season.

aceace
01-14-2008, 10:42 PM
Yup...this will certainly Play Now.

My prediction, Isiah ends up dropping a balloon full of oil out a window onto Anucha Brown-Sanders while Starbury is yelling "Helllllll-OOOO."More likely scenario... Isiah steals Willis Reeds championship jersey from the vault and wears it during a game getting mustard on it from one of those $6 hot dogs.

JayRedd
01-14-2008, 10:50 PM
More likely scenario... Isiah steals Willis Reeds championship jersey from the vault and wears it during a game getting mustard on it from one of those $6 hot dogs.

Then, he gets "involved in the game"...Like runs out onto the court and throws a hot dog at Reggie Miller "involved." But after he, Spike and Reggie all get tossed, he feels pretty bad about it and they all end up at a strip club. The craziest part though...Zeke didn't even knew Cheryl Miller's little brother played basketball.

Anthem
01-14-2008, 11:40 PM
I would like to believe that we are going to rebuild....but am I the only one that thinks that TPTB are treating this entire season as a "shakedown" year where we implement our "new found" offense, ride out the entire season to see who fits and who doesn't fit and then wait til the 2008-2009 offseason to make whatever trades we need to make so that we can continue this effort to retool ( rather then rebuild ) for the Playoffs?

The only way that I think that we will make a trade before the trade deadline is IF the right deal comes along. Otherwise...I think that we are stuck with this roster and all that comes along with it until the offseason.
What was last season? What was the season before?

We've been in shakedown mode for 3 years now. Enough already. Move on.

Anthem
01-14-2008, 11:40 PM
Am I the only one on the planet who thought calling Tinsley for a flagrant was a horrible call? I guess so.
Nope. I thought it was terrible.

BruceLeeroy
01-15-2008, 12:33 AM
Nope. I thought it was terrible.

I see no one saw it the way I saw it, oh well. It really doesn't matter what we think anyways. These types of fouls are reviewed by the league and if they determine it wasn't dirty and they rescind the flagrant I'll be here to apologize to JT and you guys. Until then I'll stick to my opinion of what I saw.

Roaming Gnome
01-15-2008, 12:40 AM
I thought it was a horrible call too. If Ellis hadn't reacted the way he did, I don't think it would have been called flagrant. Not sure why it was called flagrant anyway though.

As I mentioned to Mal when it happened, I hate these situations where someone puffs their chest then the ref has to react. Really it was nothing more then a hard foul, IMHO. It was a non-issue until Ellis got into Tinsley's face then the officials had to wonder why he was so upset. I'm sure B. Davis acting like he was playing peace maker made it pretty easy to think the situation was worse then what it was.

:twocents: The officials over reacted to the player over reacting.

jmoney2584
01-15-2008, 12:47 AM
How about Tinsley to the Knicks for Peace of Mind and a 1st rounder....does that work? Can i get a trade checker on this please?

BruceLeeroy
01-15-2008, 01:29 AM
As I mentioned to Mal when it happened, I hate these situations where someone puffs their chest then the ref has to react. Really it was nothing more then a hard foul, IMHO. It was a non-issue until Ellis got into Tinsley's face then the officials had to wonder why he was so upset. I'm sure B. Davis acting like he was playing peace maker made it pretty easy to think the situation was worse then what it was.

:twocents: The officials over reacted to the player over reacting.

If JT or Jo was fouled like that how do you think they'd react?

You guys can deflect blame off JT all you want. We'll see what the league decides.

Bball
01-15-2008, 02:09 AM
IIRC, one angle doesn't look like much.... the other angle shows Tinsley clearly putting a forearm to the head or neck area.

-Bball

BruceLeeroy
01-15-2008, 02:25 AM
IIRC, one angle doesn't look like much.... the other angle shows Tinsley clearly putting a forearm to the head or neck area.

-Bball

Clearly I'm in the minority here when it comes thinking the play was dirty. Is there anywhere I can go see it again so I can get a better idea of what happened or do you have it recorded?

Bball
01-15-2008, 02:34 AM
Clearly I'm in the minority here when it comes thinking the play was dirty. Is there anywhere I can go see it again so I can get a better idea of what happened or do you have it recorded?

I don't have it recorded. Maybe Magic Rat has it saved in his Tinsley archive? ;)

Unclebuck
01-15-2008, 09:37 AM
I thought it was a horrible call too. If Ellis hadn't reacted the way he did, I don't think it would have been called flagrant. Not sure why it was called flagrant anyway though.

Yes, I thought it was a horrible call. But that call was about as much what happened right after the foul as it ws about the actual foul. I was really upset the way Tinsley sort of stood there and acted all tough - if he would have commmitted the foul and just turned away - I don't think a flagrant 1 would have been called.

Really it should have been a foul and maybe a technical on Tinsley - technical for stupidity if nothing else. Ellis would have gotten a T also though

Anthem
01-15-2008, 10:39 AM
I was really upset the way Tinsley sort of stood there and acted all tough - if he would have commmitted the foul and just turned away - I don't think a flagrant 1 would have been called.

I think we interpreted it different. Maybe it's the Tinsley apologist in me, but what I saw was Tinsley give a hard foul once Ellis started to blow by him. He put the hand up, and Ellis acted like he got shot. It looked to me like Tinsley had a "are you kidding me" look, not a "come get some" look. So what I saw wasn't Tinsley acting like he wanted a fight, but Tinsley surprised and disgusted that Ellis was acting he'd been attacked.

Unclebuck
01-15-2008, 10:49 AM
I think we interpreted it different. Maybe it's the Tinsley apologist in me, but what I saw was Tinsley give a hard foul once Ellis started to blow by him. He put the hand up, and Ellis acted like he got shot. It looked to me like Tinsley had a "are you kidding me" look, not a "come get some" look. So what I saw wasn't Tinsley acting like he wanted a fight, but Tinsley surprised and disgusted that Ellis was acting he'd been attacked.

Yeah, I undertand and see your point. But Tinsley is the one who often overeacts to being fouled - although he's not very good at it

CableKC
01-15-2008, 02:13 PM
What was last season? What was the season before?

We've been in shakedown mode for 3 years now. Enough already. Move on.
Although I wish we were in rebuilding mode last season.....techincally, this is the first season that we have been under JO'B that is a different offensive and defensive system then the one that we were running before.

The way I look at it.....TPTB may have no choice but to "shakedown" this team for a full season to see who fits and who doesn't. Because it is so difficult to make trades with the bad contracts that we have collected ( and created ) over the last couple of seasons, we may have no choice but to sit and wait til the offseason when JONeal has a $44 mil contract instead of a $66 mil contract.

This may explain why they have not fixed any weaknesses ( poor perimeter defense, need for a backup PG and a frontcourt that cannot stay healthy enough to maintain consistency ) that all of us have recognized as a result of the offense/defense that we run.

They may make a trade....but only if it makes sense for what the team is trying to do.

This may explain why it has been so difficult to get a backup PG....it may explain why we are heavily relying on Murphy as our primary Big Man behind JONeal. TPTB are just trying to figure things out ( like before ), but this time.....they are doing a thorough evaluation before pushing the button.

The only other explanation that I can come up with is that Bird has been reading the Posts that Seth has been making about the pitfalls of pulling the trigger on the Warriors/Pacers trade and is actually taking it slow rather then making a brash decision based off of emotions and what was best for the fans ( a la the Warriors / Pacers trade ) :shrug:

SycamoreKen
01-15-2008, 03:56 PM
A deal is not just going to "come along", no one calls like "Hey..uh, so Larry...I was sitting around today and I got to thinking...how about I give you some picks and expiring contracts, all I want from you is Troy Murphy, Ike Diougu, and David Harrison. I've been thinking, you know, those guys aren't doing so hot for you and I think I would love the chance to have them on my squad". We have to actively SEARCH for what we need and I'm afraid that isn't happening. I hope I'm wrong though, because I feel a poop coming on.

But I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye on this rebuild thing.

You are right. Kevin McHale has nothing left to trade with. That option is gone.

avoidingtheclowns
01-15-2008, 04:38 PM
You are right. Kevin McHale has nothing left to trade with. That option is gone.

i'd trade murphy for fatoine. unfortunately they wouldn't.

BruceLeeroy
01-15-2008, 04:50 PM
Yes, I thought it was a horrible call. But that call was about as much what happened right after the foul as it ws about the actual foul. I was really upset the way Tinsley sort of stood there and acted all tough - if he would have commmitted the foul and just turned away - I don't think a flagrant 1 would have been called.

Really it should have been a foul and maybe a technical on Tinsley - technical for stupidity if nothing else. Ellis would have gotten a T also though

Buck, the play was called flagrant because JT never made an attempt on the ball. If you don't a flagrant is called every time. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. You can foul hard but you at least have to make it look like you're going for the arms or ball. At least we agree Tinsleys actions after the foul were uncalled for.

I hate to argue with the vets about something so petty but the Tinsley defense around here bothers me.

Bball
01-15-2008, 05:15 PM
I hate to argue with the vets about something so petty but the Tinsley defense around here bothers me.

If Tinsley could/would only play defense as well as some of his fans defend him....



;)


-Bball

McKeyFan
01-15-2008, 09:32 PM
I will be so sick to my stomach that all the nutrients i eat will just be expelled through one hole or another.

I think you'd have to be a "rebound girl" to have those options.

jmoney2584
01-16-2008, 12:41 AM
I think you'd have to be a "rebound girl" to have those options.

You obviously haven'tn seen my MySpace page...k, bad joke..sorry.

BruceLeeroy
01-16-2008, 12:44 AM
If Tinsley could/would only play defense as well as some of his fans defend him....



;)


-Bball

Actually IMO Tinsley does play defense about as well as some of his fans defend him. :devil:

kept
01-16-2008, 04:42 AM
The Pacers have been trying to trade Jamaal Tinsley for years.

Robertmto
01-16-2008, 04:47 AM
(anyone want to make any bets on whether he plays Wednesday night)

UB your gambling habit STILL hasn't gone away?? BTW did Jerm get his million bucks yet??


Yup...this will certainly Play Now.

My prediction, Isiah ends up dropping a balloon full of oil out a window onto Anucha Brown-Sanders while Starbury is yelling "Helllllll-OOOO."

So then "The Girl" was his personal assistant from NYU and not just a staff member of MSG.

Bball
01-16-2008, 05:15 AM
The Pacers have been trying to trade Jamaal Tinsley for years.

Obviously they haven't tried hard enough. And if they have tried 'hard enough' and still couldn't find a taker then that should've been a clear signal to them that we need to move on ourselves. Start building the team without him in the picture and setting him on the bench.

-Bball

aceace
01-16-2008, 05:09 PM
Obviously they haven't tried hard enough. And if they have tried 'hard enough' and still couldn't find a taker then that should've been a clear signal to them that we need to move on ourselves. Start building the team without him in the picture and setting him on the bench.

-BballI agree, Miami needs a pg:phone: hmmmmm. Just give the ball to Owens and Weiner. Let Quis handle the pg duties he's shooting way better than MelMel. We are 17-23 its not like we are going anywhere at this point. Just think, we may stop the late night nonsense also.