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brichard
01-11-2008, 12:18 AM
I haven't completely fallen off of Pacers Island, but I can not tell you the last time I even watched a part of a game. After years and years in a row of knowing the season's outcome before it is played, it has just taken away all of my desire to watch the games. I only have so much time to watch sporting events, and the Hoosier football interest story, Colts Superbowl defense, and if I had a Dish... Hoosier basketball is also more appealing at the moment.

I don't mean to be a bandwagon fan, nor am I trying to argue against those of you who continue to support the Blue and Gold not only by watching them, but many of you often attend the games. I must say that I marvel and am somewhat envious of that type of patience, loyalty... whatever one calls that behavior.

I lurk on the board more to see how you all are vs. how the Pacers are doing. Well, hopefully I will eventually snap out of it. Is anybody else struggling to watch what they consider to be an exercise in futility? I just find it too painful to watch.

Kudos to those of you who are still rooting them on. :woot:

Jose Slaughter
01-11-2008, 01:33 AM
I've been thinking about posting the same exact thoughts for a couple weeks now. Its really very sad, I've been a fan for a very long time & stating last season I just seemed to loose interest.

It has also changed my posting here. Its difficult to post on the team when you don't watch the games.

I've seen a few quarters here & there but I haven't watched a full game all season. I can't tell you the last time that has happened.

I still check out the ticker to see how the game is going but I just can't seem to get up for a game.

Theres several reasons I guess. Several players I just don't like, the style of play, lack of a direction & inaction by management, just to name a few.

I really can't call myself a Pacer fan right now & its been almost 30 years since I've felt that way. Its nice when they win & not really a big deal to me when the loose. Thats not how its suppose to be & I hope something happens that can alter that.

geetee
01-11-2008, 02:51 AM
Sorry to hear your waning interest in the P's. I'm a better lurker than poster, so for me, it's unfortunate when we lose good posters because of how the teams performance (and roster) has affected them.

I tend to automatically set my expectations of the team based on our talent level. Regardless if the team is championship caliber, playoff roadkill or in the race for the most lottery balls, I don't set my sights on achievements I don't think they're capable of. Yea I'm disappointed after a bad loss. I cuss a lot at the TV, find a scapegoat and then view all the stats and quotes to verify how bad it was. But then for me, the next game is around the corner and I'm all fired up for the tip off. Depending on the outcome, I may even have to adjust my expectations again.

Everyone reacts differently to how the team plays and we probably need both types of fans. Those that will follow the P's no matter what to always keep butts in the seats so the team stays in indy and those, like you, to ultimately send a message to TPTB that not everyone is going to watch just because you put 5 guys out on the floor.

Bottom line is, don't be so hard on yourselves, you may actually be doing this team a favor.

RamBo_Lamar
01-11-2008, 04:39 AM
The waning interest is quite understandable. After alot of losing, and dashed
hopes, and let-downs, it really becomes fatiguing and sometimes downright
depressing. In our natural quest to be happy, we may start to tune out
whatever it is that is bringing us down.

It is almost like to remain an optimistic Pacer's fan, you either have to have
an exceptionally high degree of mental "toughness", or be somehow deranged. :loco:

As far as not watching the games on TV goes, I can say that personally ever
since they dropped televising the games on channel 4, or regular old-fashioned
"free" TV, I've watched very few televised games all the way through.
Since watching them on channel 4 was was a beloved tradition of mine for
many years, I really hated when they moved almost solely to FSI (or
whatever). While this is a move I know they had to make to bring in more
revenue, I am one of those who steadfastly refuses to be railroaded into
having to purchase cable or sattelite TV services. This means to catch a
TV game all the way through usually involves finding a local watering hole
willing to tune in the Pacers to watch it over a few cold suds, and I just
don't have the free time or will to do that as much anymore than I used to.
So the best way (for me at least) to now watch them is to get down to the
Fieldhouse and watch them in person, which I've done a few times this year
so far. If I don't get to somehow see the game, at least always make it a
priority to listen to Mark & Slick's AM1070 broadcast which is also a very
long time beloved tradition.

Simply put, things were sky high for Pacers fans back in the late '90s and
alot of us got spoiled. Now that things suck by comparison, they are being
tuned out by the masses. If they were to field a championship caliber
team that was setting the league on fire, folks would become interested
again really quickly. Until then, they will tune out what is depressing.

#31
01-11-2008, 07:26 AM
I hate to admit it since i was always loyal, but i am honest aswell and i have to say that i am really starting to feel the same way.... and im sure that many here on this forum feel something similar aswell but are afraid to admit it.

For me at least and where i live its tough to even catch a NBA game live once per week, yet to see the Pacers play! When you finally see them play you become disappointed, because you dont expect the lack of excitement, you dont expect that the team you are rooting for doesnt give 100%, you dont expect to feel that nothing is happening, you dont expect to see and feel that there is no future and so on and so on...

But i will never give up on the Pacers! Hope not...

Kofi
01-11-2008, 08:08 AM
Hard to be interested in this mediocre, boring, going-nowhere-in-a-hurry team when the Colts are in the middle of the NFL playoffs, looking to repeat, and I.U. is the best they've been in years.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 08:09 AM
You are missing some pretty exciting games.

Doug
01-11-2008, 08:12 AM
I'm a bit disinterested right now, too.

What's funny is that earlier in the year I thought things were going in the right direction. They were playing hard, the defensive rotations were good, people were cutting, passing, etc. They weren't consistent. There'd be bad quarters, halves, games, where they regressed, but seemed to be making progress. And that's all I wanted, progress. I don't expected them to be a real contender this year.

Now things seem to have gone in the dumpster.

Not sure why.

Hope they snap out of it.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 08:38 AM
Doug, I think most of those things will be corrected.


Jose, I know you were a fan during the 70's, 80's and early 90's, so I just wonder why it is different now from those years when the team either wasn't good at all or average.


The only thing I will admit is that I don't take losses as hard as I used to, probably as a defensive mechanism, more than anything else.

One thing, I've noticed is when you don't watch a game, and the Pacers lose - you figure everything that happended within the game was bad. Same thing when they win, but you didn't watch it - you figure everything was good within the game. But when you watch the game you see things differently, you see the good and bad whether the Pacers win or lose.

I have completely missed 4 games this season and by that I mean, did not even listen on the radio or follow the score throughout the game. Work took me out of the country and family things over Thanksgiving took me out of the state - and it is foreign to me to miss a game or even a minute of a game - it just seems weird, it isn't something I ever want to get used to

MagicRat
01-11-2008, 09:18 AM
why it is different now from those years when the team either wasn't good at all or average.

Internet message boards.....

Doug
01-11-2008, 10:10 AM
Doug, I think most of those things will be corrected.

I think so, too. At least I want to think so.

My belief is that O'Brien was brought in to build a team that plays "the right way".

That his "no-nonsense", "no-BS" approach and a focus on defense, hustle, effort, on practicing hard, on raising what was expected of the players, would lay the foundation for the return to a team that we can be proud of. And one that would compete (eventually) for a championship.

Someone mentioned that the Pacers should have looked for a coach who could do for the Pacers what Tony Dungy has done for the Colts. I think they did, and I think that's why they picked O'Brien. (Not saying that O'Brien == Dungy and I don't want to take this thread there, but I see some similarities.)

With interest waning.
Posting frequency declines.
Elders fade away.

Rajah Brown
01-11-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm just the opposite. I enjoy watching them play this
year (particularly sans J.O.) more than I have the last
2-3 years. As a hoops fan, I enjoy the open, free
style of ball much more than the Carlisle-led drudgery.

Of course, since I'm rooting for a Lottery pick this year,
it makes the losses easier to take.

Kofi
01-11-2008, 11:33 AM
The only thing I'm really interested in is watching our future grow. Danny, Shawne, and to a lesser extent Ike. I'm also enjoying Dunleavy's season, it's good to see him playing this way after all of the crap he's faced in his career. Other than that, I'm with Rajah, June can't get here soon enough.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 11:55 AM
I don't understand how anyone cannot enjoy watching Jeff Foster. I find watching him thrilling and inspiring

Doug
01-11-2008, 12:08 PM
I don't understand how anyone cannot enjoy watching Jeff Foster. I find watching him thrilling and inspiring

That explains the restraining order...

Doug
01-11-2008, 12:09 PM
I should also say that I've enjoyed the games more this year, at least when they are playing "the right way".

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 01:26 PM
That explains the restraining order...

Were you at the game, when that kid ran out onto the court, that was actually me, and I wanted to give Foster a big high five or a hug, and I was almost ready to do so, but then he tripped me.

Bball
01-11-2008, 01:36 PM
so I just wonder why it is different now from those years when the team either wasn't good at all or average.


It's the lack of movement over several years in a positive direction. Several things were allowed to fester until they exploded. JO and JT are no longer seen as the next wave for the franchise. There's very little hope for the future that fans can latch onto right now.

Allowing players like James Jones to get away yet keeping anti-team players on the roster year after year.

Keeping coaches past their expiration date... and keeping the same basic team intact around them.

Having the bar raised with a successful run in the 90's. Also, having the Colts show that a 'small market team' CAN win AND be media players on the natl stage. Also showing a different style of ownership/management.

Pondwater slow management might be fine for times of prosperity but it is a death sentence for down times like these.

That's what is different.

CableKC
01-11-2008, 02:21 PM
You are missing some pretty exciting games.
The only exiciting game that I have witnessed as of late was the Suns/Pacers game which was through NBA.com Audio Pass and Yahoo GameCast ( since I am an Out-Of-State Pacer fan that does not have NBALP ).

But I also turned off 2 recent games that we were doing poorly in during the 3rd QTR. Why? because the Pacers are a team that I have very little confidence in that was incapable of pulling themselves out of whatever hole that they dug themselves into. Every game before that I listened to ( except for the games at the beginning of the season ) just seemed like a rehash of what we saw from the Pacers last year.


One thing, I've noticed is when you don't watch a game, and the Pacers lose - you figure everything that happended within the game was bad. Same thing when they win, but you didn't watch it - you figure everything was good within the game. But when you watch the game you see things differently, you see the good and bad whether the Pacers win or lose.
I doubt that my opinion would change if I got to watch more then the 2 games that I get to witness on TV this season. TPTB may have changed the proverbial "packaging on the product" on the outside ( by changing to an up-tempo offense ) but they still decided to keep the "same old ingredients" on the inside ( where we see that some players fit and some don't ).

What's the end result? An offense that may seem flashier then last years that may appeal ( in some way ) to the common fan.....but is still the same old mediocre "barely .500" team that we were last year.

Sure, we maybe scoring more points :happydanc but we're still losing games in the end :banghead:.

LoneGranger33
01-11-2008, 02:27 PM
I don't understand how anyone cannot enjoy watching Jeff Foster. I find watching him thrilling and inspiring


That explains the restraining order...


Were you at the game, when that kid ran out onto the court, that was actually me, and I wanted to give Foster a big high five or a hug, and I was almost ready to do so, but then he tripped me.

:rotflmao:

Skaut_Ech
01-11-2008, 02:32 PM
brichard, jose,

Uhm....thanks for testing the water for me. Although I've gone to a couple of games, (BTW, did the all inclusive beers and grub thing at Legends. Suh-weet!!) I feel the same as you guys. I'll watch the TNT lineup on Thursday from begging to end, but you almost have to pay me to stick through a whole Pacer's game. bball pretty much summed up how I feel...


It's the lack of movement over several years in a positive direction. Several things were allowed to fester until they exploded. JO and JT are no longer seen as the next wave for the franchise. There's very little hope for the future that fans can latch onto right now.

Allowing players like James Jones to get away yet keeping anti-team players on the roster year after year.

Keeping coaches past their expiration date... and keeping the same basic team intact around them.We have this horrible habit, as a franchise, of not letting people go at the optimum time. We knew when the iron was hot to move JO...but we didn't. Same with Artest. There are some other players that management knew were on downward spirals, but did/do nothing about them.

Back in the 80s and 70's, roster moves and coaching styles were debatable, but you felt the effort was there. It seemed there was a better focus on knowing where you wanted to go. I've always maintained, and will to my dying day that Larry Brown was the best thing to happen to this franchise in forever. Once his guidance was gone, the slow spiral of bad decisions began. (And don't try to tell me that Bird did anything other than ride the tail end of Brown's work.)

We've managed to foster a certain culture with this team and I don't have the stomach for it. I still root for the Pacers, but I just can't get excited about them.

The fact that longtimers like Jose and brichard feel the same prompted me to post, also. I just didn't realize some of the old squad felt the same way. As you've probably noticed I hardly EVER post on the main forum. I may have a post or two in the Shout Box or Entertainment, but that's about it.

I've always had a problems with a JO/Tinsley run team and I still do.

Now, I just don't really care.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 02:33 PM
It's the lack of movement over several years in a positive direction. Several things were allowed to fester until they exploded. JO and JT are no longer seen as the next wave for the franchise. There's very little hope for the future that fans can latch onto right now.

Allowing players like James Jones to get away yet keeping anti-team players on the roster year after year.

Keeping coaches past their expiration date... and keeping the same basic team intact around them.

Having the bar raised with a successful run in the 90's. Also, having the Colts show that a 'small market team' CAN win AND be media players on the natl stage. Also showing a different style of ownership/management.

Pondwater slow management might be fine for times of prosperity but it is a death sentence for down times like these.

That's what is different.

I think it is unfair to suggest James Jones was let go, and instead players like JT, Jax, JO or Artest were kept. You simply cannot equate a second round draft pick at the end of his contract vs a veteran who is on a long term deal - you just cannot get rid of the veterans as easily. And really it came down to JJ or Fred Jones. And in the end it doesn't matter - neither make much of an impact either way.

Roy Munson
01-11-2008, 02:37 PM
And really it came down to JJ or Fred Jones. And in the end it doesn't matter - neither make much of an impact either way.

Are you REALLY saying that James Jones is not much of an impact player right now? Have you not been paying attention for the past couple months? That's just nuts.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 02:37 PM
The only exiciting game that I have witnessed as of late was the Suns/Pacers game which was through NBA.com Audio Pass and Yahoo GameCast ( since I am an Out-Of-State Pacer fan that does not have NBALP ).

But I also turned off 2 recent games that we were doing poorly in during the 3rd QTR. Why? because the Pacers are a team that I have very little confidence in that was incapable of pulling themselves out of whatever hole that they dug themselves into. Every game before that I listened to ( except for the games at the beginning of the season ) just seemed like a rehash of what we saw from the Pacers last year.


I doubt that my opinion would change if I got to watch more then the 2 games that I get to witness on TV this season. TPTB may have changed the proverbial "packaging on the product" on the outside ( by changing to an up-tempo offense ) but they still decided to keep the "same old ingredients" on the inside ( where we see that some players fit and some don't ).

What's the end result? An offense that may seem flashier then last years that may appeal ( in some way ) to the common fan.....but is still the same old mediocre "barely .500" team that we were last year.

Sure, we maybe scoring more points :happydanc but we're still losing games in the end :banghead:.



This years team has little resemblance to last years - that just isn't true. Did you turn the
Orlando game off when the pacers were dowm 17 in the 3rd quarter, did you turn the heat game off when the pacers were down 7 with about 2 minutes to go. Did you turn off the Clippers game when the pacers trailed in the 4th quarter. The point is that the pacers have had some decent comebacks this season.

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Are you REALLY saying that James Jones is not much of an impact player right now? Have you not been paying attention for the past couple months? That's just nuts.

haven't we discussed this. Yes JJ since he has left the pacers franchise is not a difference maker. If he continues what he is doing this season for the rest of this season and next season, then I'll change my opinion.



OK, to those of you who have decided not to pay much attention to the pacers. A common theme seems to be JO and Tinsley, if and when they are traded, will you come back to the team, even if they aren't (at least initially) as good s they are right now

Kegboy
01-11-2008, 02:51 PM
haven't we discussed this. Yes JJ since he has left the pacers franchise is not a difference maker. If he continues what he is doing this season for the rest of this season and next season, then I'll change my opinion.

Wha-huh!?

James is kicking *** in Portland, everybody there loves him and sings his praises at the drop of a hat, and yet Jeff playing good once every 5 games is awe-inspiring?

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 02:53 PM
Wha-huh!?

James is kicking *** in Portland, everybody there loves him and sings his praises at the drop of a hat, and yet Jeff playing good once every 5 games is awe-inspiring?

He has played well for almost half of a season and many of you are acting like we let LeBron James get away. At best JJ is a good shooter, nice defender, and a good guy, but he isn't going to ever be considered among a teams best 3 or 4 players.

Shade
01-11-2008, 03:02 PM
James Jones has turned into a very solid role-player. I still feel we have a better version of JJ right now in Shawne Williams, but James would be a very nice to piece to have with our current offensive style.

You can all at least partially blame Rick Carlise for JJ no longer being a Pacer. JJ just wasn't going to thrive in a system like Rick's.

Naptown_Seth
01-11-2008, 03:13 PM
I have completely missed 4 games this season and by that I mean, did not even listen on the radio or follow the score throughout the game. Work took me out of the country and family things over Thanksgiving took me out of the state - and it is foreign to me to miss a game or even a minute of a game - it just seems weird, it isn't something I ever want to get used to
About the same for me and I completely agree. I don't like the team playing poorly or even losing when they play well, but I'm still fascinated by the game itself. Even if they lose I want to know how and why, plus I still enjoy the small portions that are good even in a blow out.


Rat is right though, internet and sports talk have taken outrage to an entirely new level. I wish I could say I was above this, but while I try to be logical I'm still loaded with emotions on the issues too and moreso with these quick response avenues while I'm still upset.

Naptown_Seth
01-11-2008, 03:19 PM
James Jones has turned into a very solid role-player. I still feel we have a better version of JJ right now in Shawne Williams, but James would be a very nice to piece to have with our current offensive style.

You can all at least partially blame Rick Carlise for JJ no longer being a Pacer. JJ just wasn't going to thrive in a system like Rick's.
Errr...he exploded under Rick and it was Rick that started using him late in games when saw that he could handle it. The Pacers just tried to curb costs, not make a change on need or fitting the system.

JJ is not Shawne, he is an SG. He is what we want Rush to be, or at least Diener. He'll come in and run a curl, drop a few 3 bombs at a great rate and then block a few shots. His awareness at the time was no better than Shawne or Danny have right now, but we are willing to live with them.

Think about a 2/3/4 combo of JJ/DG/SW, that's 38-40% from 3 on a very regular basis, not just hot streaks. The only issue with that group is that you would still need some STRONG leadership and maturity at the PG/C spots to stabilize and guide them. And of course that would mean some pretty green defense for a year or so.

I guess now I need to dig out some JJ clips from his time here and show him running a strong curl for the 3pt catch and shoot, stuff like that. He's not Lebron, but then just what was he asking for in salary? Not exactly Lebron in that area either.

People are mad that Indy let go of a pure 3pt shooter that wanted shooting specialist money. No different than if they let Kapono go, and who wouldn't want him on the team right now.

Since86
01-11-2008, 03:19 PM
You can all at least partially blame Rick Carlise for JJ no longer being a Pacer. JJ just wasn't going to thrive in a system like Rick's.

Not to totally derail the subject, but I think some would blame Global Warming on Rick too, if they had the chance.

What exactly was "Rick's" system? He changed it when JO was either injured or suspended, he was also the one who ran the offense under Bird. He ran a system that was best suited for the players he had.


With that said, I had a long drawn out post about losing interest the other day which basically tied into why casual fans aren't coming out to watch them. I would say if you take the time to even lurk on a board like this regularly you would be in the "die-hard" category. I don't want to label fans like rants have gone on and done in the past, questioning people's motives and stuff but you're taking initiative to care about the team. How can we expect casual fans, fair-weather fans, bandwagon fans, whatever you want to call them like and support this franchise if even we as a whole are losing interest?

The organization is going to continue to struggle unless they realize they've got a serious problem on their hands. Shuffling their bottom players isn't, changing their coach, or changing their marketing scheme isn't going to cut it.

Putnam
01-11-2008, 03:39 PM
The organization is going to continue to struggle unless they realize they've got a serious problem on their hands. Shuffling their bottom players isn't, changing their coach, or changing their marketing scheme isn't going to cut it.

1. They do realize it. Larry Bird isn't having any fun.

2. None of the things you list, by themselves, will suffice. But each of them fits in with an overall effort. Changing the coach was a good and necessary step. Changing the marketing scheme was...well, what else can the marketing gurus at PS&E do? Shuffling the bottom players, as you say, isn't going to cut it. I agree with you that the organization overestimated their off-season tweak.


We ought to stop acting like poor crowds and community disaffection is a new crisis every week or two. The big crowds of casual fans coming back is going to be the last thing to happen. That is probably 2-3 years away at best.

Kegboy
01-11-2008, 03:43 PM
He has played well for almost half of a season and many of you are acting like we let LeBron James get away. At best JJ is a good shooter, nice defender, and a good guy, but he isn't going to ever be considered among a teams best 3 or 4 players.

Of course, but how much could we use a good shooter, nice defender, and good guy?

Unclebuck
01-11-2008, 03:46 PM
Of course, but how much could we use a good shooter, nice defender, and good guy?

Would I like to have him on our roster. Sure. Do I think he's as good as Dunleavy, Granger, or Daniels right now. No. Do I think williams will be better than Jones. Yes.

I still don't see the need for him.

Roy Munson
01-11-2008, 04:16 PM
Would I like to have him on our roster. Sure. Do I think he's as good as Dunleavy, Granger, or Daniels right now. No. Do I think williams will be better than Jones. Yes.

I still don't see the need for him.

Williams has a LONG way to go before he's a valuable as JJones. I don't expect it to happen. Williams seems like he has potential, but he's going to have to prove to be a winner before he exceeds Jones' value.

Would Portland trade JJones for Daniels right now? Now way, not even close. Even if the salarys were dead even, they wouldn't do it.

The Jumpshot Still Money
01-11-2008, 04:19 PM
yea i lost interest in late November

Since86
01-11-2008, 04:35 PM
1. They do realize it. Larry Bird isn't having any fun.

Well I would hope that's the situation but obviously they don't understand just how serious the situation is, or they would be doing something about it.

They're gonna have to bite the bullet and just be plain bad for a couple of years, and by that I mean get rid of all their irritations instead of just applying another ointment just to see the same results.

They've changed the supporting cast, didn't work.
They've changed the coaching staff, didn't work.
They've changed the ad campaigns, didn't work.

Call me silly, but they can atleast try the things they haven't tried before. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Well JO and Tinsley have fooled this organization about twenty times now, thinking they can either stay healthy, stay out of trouble, or even win games.

They've given them every opportunity to succeed, and it's just not panned out. Sometimes you just need to cut your line.

CableKC
01-11-2008, 04:50 PM
This years team has little resemblance to last years - that just isn't true. Did you turn the Orlando game off when the pacers were dowm 17 in the 3rd quarter, did you turn the heat game off when the pacers were down 7 with about 2 minutes to go. Did you turn off the Clippers game when the pacers trailed in the 4th quarter. The point is that the pacers have had some decent comebacks this season.
I'm talking more about the level of confidence that I have with the team. I have as much confidence in the current version of the team that I had with the version from last season.

I admit that my perception of the team was different earlier in the season when it seemed that the team appeared to be competitive and didn't seem like they would give up....but as of late...things just seem to be reverting back to the way that were last year.

I can see that the "score as many points as we can" probably got us some good wins against some good teams ( like the Magic game that you mentioned )...but what's worse now is that we are losing to teams that no team should be losing to ( like the Sonics, Grizzlies and TWolves ).

To me....it's nice that we are trying to be more up-tempo and try to "score as many points as we can"....but so far...the end-result has been the same. We're still a .500 team that is just a little bit more interesting to watch.

Don't get me wrong...I will still watch the very few games on TV that I get to see and will still rush home to turn on NBA Audio pass to listen to the game....but I'm back at "Square 1" with this team like it was last year, my expectations are simply low for them.

AesopRockOn
01-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Would I like to have him on our roster. Sure. Do I think he's as good as Dunleavy, Granger, or Daniels right now. No. Do I think williams will be better than Jones. Yes.

I still don't see the need for him.

I agree with you on Dun and Danny but not on Marquis. His defense, or at least what I've seen him play, has disintegrated since he was traded for Croshere. He gambles, can't stay in front of the quicker players, and has no rebounding instincts for a SF. He's not our backup PG; we saw that he has no ability to lead an offense. Maybe (I take that back, there is much evidence of this) he's been injured a lot, but all he is to me is a slasher who gets some steals with relatively low b-ball IQ and not much propensity for getting to the line (No, not talking about DH right now!). Guess I'm down on Quis right now.

grace
01-11-2008, 09:27 PM
UB, have you actually watched JJ play this year?

MagicRat
01-11-2008, 11:59 PM
You're all worthless and weak! Now drop and give me 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/worthlessandweak.jpg