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View Full Version : Pacers/Suns Post Game 37: So close, yet so far



Doddage
01-09-2008, 11:51 PM
Is there a reason why Tins took practically every shot in OT?

Shade
01-09-2008, 11:52 PM
Disgusting beyond all belief. Tinsley took most of the shots down the stretch in the 4th quarter, and EVERY Pacers shot in overtime.

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

I don't know WTF is going on, but I have lost a ton of respect for O'Brien after letting Tinsley run wild like that.

That was the worst display of selfish, one-on-one bull**** that I've ever seen in my life. It was like watching a game of NBA2K8 out there.

Absolutely no excuse for that EVER happening in a real NBA game.

I'm sick of this team pissing away huge leads by taking bad shot after bad shot early in the shot clock late in the game WHEN THEY HAVE THE LEAD, and/or having Tinsley suddenly think he's MICHAEL ****ING JORDAN with the game on the line.

EVERY. SINGLE. SHOT.

That's it. I'm outta here.

Alpolloloco
01-09-2008, 11:52 PM
TRADE TINSLEY!!!

loborick
01-09-2008, 11:54 PM
Is there a reason why Tins took practically every shot in OT?

I came on here to ask that. I followed the game on gametracker and I don't remember anyone else taking a shot in OT. And he was shooting crappy to begin with! What happened there?

Lord Helmet
01-09-2008, 11:54 PM
PACERS WIN, PACERS WIN.

odeez
01-09-2008, 11:56 PM
Yeah, if you watched this game, you have to be sick to your stomach. All those threes in the fourth was a big part of the loss. TINS did the rest. A lott of good things to look at, but at this point we need wins, bottom line.

CableKC
01-09-2008, 11:56 PM
The Suns interior defense shut us down in the end.....but IT IS UNEXCUSEABLE that Tinsley took all of the shots towards the end of the game.

Players like Marquis and even Owens would have been helpful here.....at least they could drive to the hoop.

Hoop
01-09-2008, 11:57 PM
Anybody really care if JO plays another game in a Pacers uniform? Not sure if I do.

Not sure what to think of Tins after this game, just weird.

SycamoreKen
01-09-2008, 11:58 PM
Was he even looking to pass the ball?

odeez
01-09-2008, 11:58 PM
Anybody really care if JO plays another game in a Pacers uniform? Not sure if I do.

Not sure what to think of Tins after this game, just weird.

Nope.

TINS = poor decisions down the stretch, we have other shooters on this team.

CableKC
01-09-2008, 11:59 PM
Anybody really care if JO plays another game in a Pacers uniform? Not sure if I do.

Not sure what to think of Tins after this game, just weird.
It's easy.....Tinsley is a bad 3pt shooter...yet he took WAY too many 3pt shots.

I really want to hear what JO'B has to say in the Post-game conference.

One more thing....for those that watched the game.....I was under the impression that the Suns locked down the middle...which may explain why we took so many 3pt shots when we didn't need them. Can someone confirm this?

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:00 AM
O'Brien is known for coaching non-playoff teams into the post-season. In Indiana, he's taking a team that really should make the playoffs and making sure they don't.

odeez
01-10-2008, 12:00 AM
I don't care if TINS shoots the ball, but first get some ball movement or try driving the ball to the rim.

McKeyFan
01-10-2008, 12:01 AM
Haven't you guys figured it out yet?

Tins gets to do what he wants: Shoot bad percentage shots, miss free throws, jack around with one-one-one antics, hang out till all hours of the night in night clubs, have his main rival shipped to another team, and take over in overtime with wild, unbridled passion.

Oh yeah, JOB did get in his face after the AK47 incident and Tins said he really got treated like a man.

But no punishments. I wonder if their will be any consequences to this fiasco.

Alpolloloco
01-10-2008, 12:02 AM
I can't believe Tinsley still having fans who'll defend him after his abysmal showing at the end of this game!

CableKC
01-10-2008, 12:03 AM
Can someone comment on Deiner?

I heard from Kellogg that he seemed to run and push the team when he was on the floor. I am guessing that this was during times when Nash was out....but it sounds like he could be used on an "as needed...but based on whose on the floor" situation.

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:03 AM
I can't believe Tinsley still having fans who'll defend him after his abysmal showing at the end of this game!

Well, we kind of have to root for him. He's all we got. At least at power forward you can conceivably put in someone else for that 10 million dollar criminal.

odeez
01-10-2008, 12:04 AM
Sounds like JOB wants to run with a smaller line up now, talking post game, and more time for Shawne.

Roaming Gnome
01-10-2008, 12:05 AM
You can sit here and blame Tinsley all you want, but he does have a coach that looked like he was encouraging what we saw.

I'm sorry, but Jim O'Brien lost us this game, PERIOD!!!! I'm not speaking of the O.T. disaster, but more of that chucking session at the end of regulation. How about mixing in a midrange shot, or some kind of secondary pass while the defense was recovering off the Tinsley double team.

Sorry Jim, I'm not impressed and I'm lossing more and more respect for your decisions.


Oh yeah, screw this "moral victory" garbage that they were spewing in the post game. What a freaking joke, the coach doesn't know how to unplug a guy from single handedly screwing us, but we are going to talk like we actually accomplished something. Unbelieveable!

Shade
01-10-2008, 12:05 AM
Over the last 7:45 of the game, Tinsley went 4-for-14 from the floor. The rest of the team went 1-for-2 (Danny missed a shot in the 4th, and Dun tipped in a shot in OT).

McKeyFan
01-10-2008, 12:05 AM
I don't care if TINS shoots the ball, but first get some ball movement or try driving the ball to the rim.

Having cooled off a bit from my previous post, yes, I think your point is correct.

JOB has some onus on him for the fact that our motion is not good. It used to be. Peck noted in his thread this lack of offensive strategy. That being the case, we are left with few options, and Tinsley takes over.

But maybe, just maybe, other guys on the team should get to shoot the ball, and maybe even touch it, in overtime.

Bball
01-10-2008, 12:07 AM
That was pathetic out of Tinsley. That might've been the longest stretch of selfish basketball I've ever seen in my life. I cannot believe OBrien condoned that and I'm more than a little 'unhappy' that he didn't pull JT or at least have a LONG sideline talk to him on a timeout.

If anyone wants to know why this team can't connect with hometown fans, you can use the video of this game as exhibit #1. Indiana fans will NEVER accept that type of ball. JOB royally screwed up by allowing Tinsley to continue it, if for nothing else than the picture it painted for fans watching on TV (or listening on radio).

How can you be a teammate of a player like that and not have problems with what he did???

It's little wonder this team has chemistry problems.

JT should be suspended for the next game.

-Bball

SycamoreKen
01-10-2008, 12:07 AM
How will the youngsters learn to be clutch when they don't get the opportunity?

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:08 AM
Here's the good news about all this - we are all but guaranteeing a playoff berth for the Atlanta Hawks!

JBones19
01-10-2008, 12:08 AM
I honestly think the reason Tins took every shot in OT was because our players were completely exhausted. They gave Tins the ball and iso'd him against Marion pretty much every play in OT and NOBODY was cutting or moving. It almost looked like he was supposed to be taking every shot- it was ugly. I feel bad for Jeff, Danny, Troy, and Shawne, they played their butts off. But if there is a silver lining, we played phenomenally the first 3 1/2 quarters, maybe we'll learn how to finish one day...

On Deiner- he suffered a nasty sprained ankle and probably will be out a while (speculating here) but when he was in he pushed the tempo very well and hit some shots.

McKeyFan
01-10-2008, 12:10 AM
How will the youngsters learn to be clutch when they don't get the opportunity?

Tins got plenty of opportunities, and he's on his way to being clutch.

. . . Oh, yeah . . .

He's nearly 30.

CableKC
01-10-2008, 12:13 AM
Here's the good news about all this - we are all but guaranteeing a playoff berth for the Atlanta Hawks!
We have been helping them out for the last couple of years....why stop now?

Roaming Gnome
01-10-2008, 12:14 AM
I don't see nearly enough of these fingers being pointed at the coach, for allowing Tinsley to single handedly hose us in the overtime. As Bball mentioned, there wasn't as much as a "talking to" with Tinsley let alone a benching to get some other guys involved.

Infinite MAN_force
01-10-2008, 12:14 AM
Considering we probably would not have been in any position to win without tinsley, you take the good with the bad.

It was still rediculous and I hope we don't see it again. If there was ever an indication to obrien that we need to rein him in a bit that was it.

In other news, I think I have finally bought into the argument that we play better without JO. I have given him a lot of chances and this game pretty much proved it to me... I also heard Jim in the press conference say that he is considering going small more to get shawne more minutes, and I think that is a good idea.

come on guys, we lost to a top 3 team in the league in overtime. I found some positives in this game, Im pretty much on the "evaluate the youngster" level at this point anyway. More losses means better draft pick... :-p

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:14 AM
Everyone is criticizing O'Brien now, but I was doing it before it was cool. I believe I led the charge against Murphy too.

http://swg.stratics.com/content/lore/personas/images/palpatine.gif

Let the hate flow through you...

CableKC
01-10-2008, 12:15 AM
I honestly think the reason Tins took every shot in OT was because our players were completely exhausted. They gave Tins the ball and iso'd him against Marion pretty much every play in OT and NOBODY was cutting or moving. It almost looked like he was supposed to be taking every shot- it was ugly. I feel bad for Jeff, Danny, Troy, and Shawne, they played their butts off. But if there is a silver lining, we played phenomenally the first 3 1/2 quarters, maybe we'll learn how to finish one day...

On Deiner- he suffered a nasty sprained ankle and probably will be out a while (speculating here) but when he was in he pushed the tempo very well and hit some shots.
I could see this as a viable reason as to why he did what he had to do....but why not pull out Dunleavy and put in Marquis? Heck....I would have even been happy with Ike at that point....at least I know that we would have taken some shots in the paint.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-10-2008, 12:19 AM
well you figure this was not a game anyone expected to win...2nd night off a back to back after getting killed by utah. It just hurts because we could have and probably should have won this game. We can build off this...lets shut JO down for the remainder of the trip and get some wins. Shut em down till the all star break so his sorness in his knee can go away and he can practice.

Alpolloloco
01-10-2008, 12:20 AM
I don't see nearly enough of these fingers being pointed at the coach, for allowing Tinsley to single handedly hose us in the overtime. As Bball mentioned, there wasn't as much as a "talking to" with Tinsley let alone a benching to get some other guys involved.

:bs:

Tinsley is a grown man, a coach shouldn't have to tell him that going solo in the last 10 minutes is NOT the way to win a game. Especially beause it's not the first time he tries to be the hero ... and failing almost every time!

JOB should have yanked him when we went to overtime but Tinsley alone is responsable for this outcome, and he deserves all the crap that is coming to him!

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:20 AM
If Ike and Shawne aren't getting consistent minutes at the end of the season, we better be in the ****ing playoffs. Let's not toss a whole year of everyone's life away watching JO and Tins play catch while Murphy plays a game of slapass with whoever he's pretending to defend.

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:21 AM
:bs:

Tinsley is a grown man, a coach shouldn't have to tell him that going solo in the last 10 minutes is NOT the way to win a game. Especially beause it's not the first time he tries to be the hero ... and failing almost every time!

JOB should have yanked him when we went to overtime but Tinsley alone is responsable for this outcome, and he deserves all the crap that is coming to him!

Listen, we all vehemently disagree with what he did, but don't let your well-documented disgust with Tinsley prevent you from seeing that Jim O'Brien could have done something about it if he had any brains or any balls about him.

mb221
01-10-2008, 12:21 AM
Diener finally looked solid for a game. It was really too bad to see him go down the ankle sprain.

LoneGranger33
01-10-2008, 12:24 AM
"I saw Travis being led out of the lockerroom in a wheelchair but the Pacers PR guy said that his return was questionable for tonight's game"

Roaming Gnome
01-10-2008, 12:25 AM
:bs:

Tinsley is a grown man, a coach shouldn't have to tell him that going solo in the last 10 minutes is NOT the way to win a game. Especially beause it's not the first time he tries to be the hero ... and failing almost every time!

JOB should have yanked him when we went to overtime but Tinsley alone is responsable for this outcome, and he deserves all the crap that is coming to him!

Well, how is it BS when you just re-itterated my point to begin with. Obie should either yanked him not neccessarily when we went to OT, but anytime during...he could have mixed in something about discression and getting your team mates involved.

Sorry, your typical flaming of Tins and JO just doesn't hold any water in my eyes when the freakin coach didnt even make an effort to rectify the situation.

CableKC
01-10-2008, 12:30 AM
well you figure this was not a game anyone expected to win...2nd night off a back to back after getting killed by utah. It just hurts because we could have and probably should have won this game. We can build off this...lets shut JO down for the remainder of the trip and get some wins. Shut em down till the all star break so his sorness in his knee can go away and he can practice.
I do think that it's reasonable to believe that Granger, Dunleavy and Foster were out of gas and therefore not good scoring options. They were taking the majority of the shots and rebounding while running up and down for 4 quarters. So I can see that why we didn't want to use them as scoring options.

But as many have stated......JO'B should have recognized this and subbed in Marquis...who only played 14 minutes before Shawne fouled out.

I can partially blame Tinsley for this loss....but I put the majority of the blame on JO'B for not making the necessary coaching adjustments to stem the tide.

Big Smooth
01-10-2008, 12:43 AM
:bs:

Tinsley is a grown man, a coach shouldn't have to tell him that going solo in the last 10 minutes is NOT the way to win a game. Especially beause it's not the first time he tries to be the hero ... and failing almost every time!

JOB should have yanked him when we went to overtime but Tinsley alone is responsable for this outcome, and he deserves all the crap that is coming to him!

Then why even have a coach? If the players are grown men and should know what to do anyways...:D

You have to put part of it on the coach too. It is illogical not to.

bnd45
01-10-2008, 12:50 AM
If Ike and Shawne aren't getting consistent minutes at the end of the season, we better be in the ****ing playoffs. Let's not toss a whole year of everyone's life away watching JO and Tins play catch while Murphy plays a game of slapass with whoever he's pretending to defend.

We have a winner!!!

I've been on this train for a while.

OakMoses
01-10-2008, 01:07 AM
I honestly think the reason Tins took every shot in OT was because our players were completely exhausted.

This is a horribly inaccurate statement. If anyone looked exhausted or out of gas at the end of the game, it was Tinsley. Think about it. Who's playing their second game back after a week off? Near the end of regulation, he airballed an 8 foot jumper, left it short. At that point you could tell that he didn't even have the 6 inches of lift that he normally gets on his jumpshot. Did he stop shooting at this point? No, of course not. By the way, Dunleavy was moving and working to get open on more than one of these possessions.

Tinsley's play at the end of the game was inexcusable. In 9 minutes he destroyed every bit of good will he built up over the season. For those of you who say you have to take the good with the bad with Tinsley, I say that's fine, we just need to pull him for the last 5 minutes of every game. If Andre Owens had played the last 5 minutes of regulation, we'd probably have won this game.

What truly scares me about all this is that most of the plays at the end of the game looked like called iso's for Tinsley. O'Brien has said that he likes to slow it up and run plays at the end of games. If having a bad shooter go one on one against one of the NBA's best defenders is your idea of running a play, then you have some bad ideas. I've been a supporter of O'Brien all along, but right now I'm just as disgusted with him as I am with Tinsley.

I should mention that I waited to cool off before posting this. I have never been so disgusted by the ending of a basketball game in my life.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-10-2008, 01:15 AM
I don't think you can blame tinsley for this loss. He was being Iso'd at the end but no one was moving. It reminded me of the lets dump it to our go to guy (JO) and let him go to work. Tins just couldn't get it done tonight...this wasn't supposed to be a win anyways. We can still win the remainder of this trip...if JO sits.

kester99
01-10-2008, 01:16 AM
Short coach's comments are up at pacers.com:

Jim O'Brien:

“The effort was exceptional. It’s very disappointing to lose, I thought we competed. The injuries to Kareem (Rush) and Travis (Diener) hurt our depth. We were basing our whole tempo on depth and that kind of set us back. We had to play some guys a little longer than we wanted to. I thought Jeff (Foster) and Troy Murphy did a great job of holding down the middle by themselves. Disappointing, but a good hard effort from our ball club.”

I was looking for something more like, "We made a lot of bad decisions in the last 5 minutes of regulation."

You have to play hard AND smart.

Trader Joe
01-10-2008, 01:21 AM
Tins=JOB's new Iverson? It certainly looks that way recently. Which is depressing considering the way the team (Tinsley) started this season. Just really an all around weird game.

NuffSaid
01-10-2008, 01:21 AM
I honestly think the reason Tins took every shot in OT was because our players were completely exhausted. They gave Tins the ball and iso'd him against Marion pretty much every play in OT and NOBODY was cutting or moving. It almost looked like he was supposed to be taking every shot- it was ugly. I feel bad for Jeff, Danny, Troy, and Shawne, they played their butts off. But if there is a silver lining, we played phenomenally the first 3 1/2 quarters, maybe we'll learn how to finish one day...

On Deiner- he suffered a nasty sprained ankle and probably will be out a while (speculating here) but when he was in he pushed the tempo very well and hit some shots.
That first line is bogus! We had fresh legs out there in Quis, Dunleavy and there was still Owens in reserve. Granted, he hadn't played the entire game, but I'd have gone to him in regularion if it meant getting a fresh body out there who could knock down a three, if necessary, or drive to the basket.

This was poor decision making all around by the coach and his starting PG!!! There's no way in h**l I'd allow my team to take jump shots with the game under 3 minutes and you're within 10 pts of your opponent whether ahead or trying to claw your way from behind because long jump shots ALWAYS led to long rebounds. The odds are totally against you, and I don't care if you're the best 3-point shooting team in the league. Odds are you'll miss a few and your opponent will get the rebound and score the ball in transition. It's just NOT smart basketball.

JOB blew this!

Tinsley blew this!

This game above ALL others IMO is very hard to swallow because it was theirs!! The Pacers had the Suns on the ropes! Their ONLY offense for the most part down the stretch was Barbosa. He started clanking them near the end while the Pacers got the rebounds and just threw up clanker after clanker from downtown themselves, and in doing so let the Suns steal yet another game from them.

Absolutely ridiculous! Pathetic!! Utterly uncalled for!!! :censored:

Trader Joe
01-10-2008, 01:26 AM
Jim O'Brien:

“The effort was exceptional. It’s very disappointing to lose, I thought we competed. The injuries to Kareem (Rush) and Travis (Diener) hurt our depth. We were basing our whole tempo on depth and that kind of set us back. We had to play some guys a little longer than we wanted to. I thought Jeff (Foster) and Troy Murphy did a great job of holding down the middle by themselves. Disappointing, but a good hard effort from our ball club.”

God I'm so sick and tired of hearing about depth. There isn't a more usless thing in all of sports. If you're starters aren't up to snuff YOU WILL LOSE MORE THAN YOU WIN PERIOD.
The Pacers like to try and sell us on this depth but its becoming complete and utter BS. This team doesn't have depth. This was Diener's first good game ALL SEASON. Ike has been basically useless since he has returned. And anything Murphy does positive is typically cancelled out almost immediately by some sort of missed defensive assigment or poor jump shot. The only players that give us "depth" consistently right now are Quis, Rush, and Foster. And quite honestly that ain't saying much. Countless teams in the NBA have better benches than us.
So until we get a LEGIT sixth man candidate or some better starters any talk of "depth" on this team is merely lip service. Year after year (basically the past three or four years) we hear about our superior "depth" how strong our benches is and all of this noise. I'm tired of it. Give me a brilliant group of 5 starters over depth any day. Especially when its as mediocre as our depth is.

BruceLeeroy
01-10-2008, 01:50 AM
JOB had a big hand in the way this game ended. No doubt. He should never had let a foolish player have free reign to do as he pleases in the critical moments of a game. If he really encourages a 33% shooter to shoot 20+ shots a game and to take over at crunch time he's a fool as well. Hopefully TPTB are just trying to inflate JT's trade value or trying to tank the season(maybe both) or else I have little faith in JOB's decision making.

And for those that are saying JT's shots are due to playing with more effort:laugh: or us needing another player because JT doesn't trust his teamates go check the box score. There were several players shooting the ball well tonight. There was no need for him to do this again. Not tonight.

Hicks
01-10-2008, 01:59 AM
I can only assume one of the following:

1) Jim O'Brien is a bad in-game coach

2) While he doesn't think it was the best idea for Tinsley to do what he did, he made the promise to let them have the offense while he has the defense, and to stick to that he'll simply point out in film session and in practice the error of Tinsley's ways (in a constructive way) to teach him to make better decisions on his own.

I can believe 1, but I'm going with 2.

jeffg-body
01-10-2008, 02:00 AM
It kind of looked like we were gassed late in the overtime period. I gave them a ton of credit for playing that well on the second day of a back to back, running with Phoenix, and taking them into OT on their floor.:happydanc

BruceLeeroy
01-10-2008, 02:23 AM
I can only assume one of the following:

1) Jim O'Brien is a bad in-game coach

2) While he doesn't think it was the best idea for Tinsley to do what he did, he made the promise to let them have the offense while he has the defense, and to stick to that he'll simply point out in film session and in practice the error of Tinsley's ways (in a constructive way) to teach him to make better decisions on his own.

I can believe 1, but I'm going with 2.

I'd say you probably got it right. The thing is this has happened several times this year. JT either doesn't get it or doesn't care. He has no excuse for tonight because other players were playing well. I realize Obie probably made some of those ISO calls but that doesn't mean he wants JT to take the shot every time down. He calls it to eat some clock and let his best playmaker make plays. The more I think about it the more I blame JT for this one.

Mourning
01-10-2008, 05:07 AM
Everyone is criticizing O'Brien now, but I was doing it before it was cool. I believe I led the charge against Murphy too.

http://swg.stratics.com/content/lore/personas/images/palpatine.gif

Let the hate flow through you...

:lol:

bellisimo
01-10-2008, 07:49 AM
just saw the game on tape - damn!
after all those time outs we took - we still went with the JT Ball...seriously was that the best play that JOB could draw in the huddle?
I understand and appreciate what Mal has mentioned - but surely JOB was not drawing defensive schemes when we had the ball and were in need of a score...right?!?

Elgin56
01-10-2008, 09:13 AM
JOB is handing Tins with kid gloves because he doesn't want to deal with the old Tins, sulking on the bench and being an being a complete a$$.

Phildog
01-10-2008, 09:38 AM
Did everyone see the same game I did?

What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.

bellisimo
01-10-2008, 09:44 AM
Did everyone see the same game I did?

What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.

apparently you saw another game. ;)
All I saw was JT taking over the offense and the team members realizing that it was going to be a show of "MEL MEL" and decided it wasn't worth to cut/etc cause JT was not looking to dish the ball out.

OakMoses
01-10-2008, 09:48 AM
What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.

Tins went 4-14 during the Pacers last 16 shots. He was being guarded largely by Shawn Marion, a very good defender. 4-14 is roughly 28%. 28% is about what you'd expect a bad shooter (35% for the season) to shoot when being guarded by a good defender.

Our other options were everybody on the floor but Tins. At the end of regulation we had Rush, Dunleavy, and Granger on the floor. They are all much better shooters than Tins. I don't care if they're standing still.

Things could have been done differently. Shawne Williams was hot and would have been fresh if O'Brien would have put him in the game. Andre Owens could have been put in for Tins. This would force the good shooters to shoot. Marquis Daniels could have been allowed to be a creator.

This loss falls entirely on the shoulders of O'Brien and Tinsley. The blame lies nowhere else.

Losing a game where you're up by 16 in the second half is a failure, no matter how hard you play.

Phildog
01-10-2008, 09:48 AM
apparently you saw another game. ;)
All I saw was JT taking over the offense and the team members realizing that it was going to be a show of "MEL MEL" and decided it wasn't worth to cut/etc cause JT was not looking to dish the ball out.



Perhaps it helps to sleep for 6 hours between the time the game ends and the time I responded in this thread.

I think it is important to put things in perspective and not just look at the last couple of minutes of the 4th and OT in a vacuum. So that is what I will attempt to do.

Bare with me here, this is all from memory (I watched the game live and only once). Let me first say that the Pacers basically ran two different plays in the OT and the last 4 minutes of regulations. One was a JT post up, the other once was a pass to the big guy (Jeff) at the elbow, and then JT and a wing player would cross cut and jeff would give the ball to the open guy. Both plays were working. Pacers got several wide open good looks from 3 late in regulation. Granger missed two really good looks, and there were a couple of other really good looks that were missed. If they had hit one of those threes, the pacers win the game.

Those two plays were also run in the OT. Yes JT took all the shots - but he did also hit a few of those.

Am I happy that JT took all the shots - no, but no one else was hitting anything. The only real complaint I have with Jim is that Williams didn't come back in at the end of regulation. He had 5 fouls and he was dead tired when he was taken out, but he should have been in the game near the end.

Yes it was a tough loss, and yes without Nash, the pacers should have won the game. But I refuse to let the very end ruin the rest of the game and things that I believe can be used in future games. More on that in a little bit

Apparently UB saw the same thing I did.

Too many knee jerks going on after this one.

Oneal07
01-10-2008, 10:34 AM
Nope.

TINS = poor decisions down the stretch, we have other shooters on this team.


The Isolation with Tinsley was working for a while. After when Dunleavy I think, missed the wide open 3, Tins said **** it and started to hogg the ball.

we should have won the game, cause Amare turned the ball over TRAVELLED, but it wasn't even called.

If we can play how we played last night, this team is so much better. I'm telling you, Diener and Graham need to play more. And Shawne proves why he should be getting playing time.

I prayed that we won the game, but I seen the loss coming. We should have won

Mourning
01-10-2008, 12:55 PM
Apparently UB saw the same thing I did.

Too many knee jerks going on after this one.

:huh: Not aggreeing with you = knee jerk?

I DISAGREE!!!


;)

Seriously though, Mike took 9 shots and hit 6, Danny took 18 shots and hit 9, Williams took 12 shots and hit 9. Those are good percentages. Why didn't we set screens for these guys after Tins started throwing clankers around? I don't get it. And Tins actually played pretty well the first 3 quarters, but that 4th quarter and OT... wow... :puke:.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

denyfizle
01-10-2008, 02:23 PM
uhmm did Danny Granger foul out or did Tinsley just make sure the Mafia stays happy with him? Sometimes I think Tinsley gets paid to lose games in the stretch. Seriously! He plays great almost all the way until it's crunch time and he tosses an ill-advised 3 or forces it down the lane only to shoot it short or be blocked.

CableKC
01-10-2008, 02:23 PM
Did everyone see the same game I did?

What exactly were our options besides Tins at the end?

We did not score in the 4th quarter. No one cut, we took like 13-15 3's and couldn't hit anything. Tins was the only one who seemed to want a shot. I'm sorry, but if guys would've gotten open, or we could've bought a bucket at the end, I'm guessing Tins would've passed the ball.

The start of OT, Tin's had a it going, and hit a couple of baskets. He kept trying and they didn't fall. Besides the very end, most were decent shots, and ones that he can frequently hit.
Although all of what I am about to post is all speculation ( since I could not watch the game but only listen to it ) and could be viewed as shifting blame away from Tinsley, I mostly agree with you. However, I don't think that he can't escape any blame for this loss. Tinsley could have tried to do more to get the rest of the team involved ( especially when Marion was defending him ).

I really wonder if someone ( either JO'B, Tinsley or the both of them ) decided that it would be best for Tinsley to try to take the rest of the shots...something that we have seen him do before in previous games.

Below is the Pacers Play-By-Play towards the end of the 4th QTR:

5:31 Danny Granger makes 24-foot three point jumper (Jamaal Tinsley assists) / 111-105
4:46 Danny Granger misses 25-foot three point jumper / 111-107
4:43 Mike Dunleavy misses tip shot / 111-107
4:18 Jamaal Tinsley misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
4:05 Danny Granger misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
3:47 Troy Murphy misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-108
3:15 Kareem Rush misses 24-foot three point jumper / 111-108
2:53 Mike Dunleavy misses 26-foot three point jumper / 111-110
2:45 Jamaal Tinsley misses 28-foot three point jumper / 111-110
2:27 Danny Granger misses 9-foot jumper / 111-110
2:05 Jamaal Tinsley misses free throw 1 of 2 / 111-110
2:05 Jamaal Tinsley makes free throw 2 of 2 / 112-110

After the 5:31 minute mark in the 4th QTR ( this was after Granger and Shawne went on a scoring frenzy to put us up 111-105 ), Granger/Murphy/Rush/Dunleavy went ice cold for 3:30 seconds until the 2:05 minute mark when Tinsley finally made a FT shot.

Although Tinsley, Dunleavy and Granger played the most minutes up to that point....it's entirely possible that Granger and Dunleavy "simply ran out of gas" at that point and were settling for the easy 3pt attempts instead of trying to move around to get closer and drive to the basket to draw fouls. Keep in mind that it's not easy to keep up the tempo that the Pacers run....I'm guessing that the tempo is even worse when you have to do the same on the defensive end against a quicker team like the Suns. Something similar could be said of Rush and Murphy....both streaky shooters. At that point of the game they simply went cold. However, this isn't surprising since the Suns had a very solid defensive lineup of Barbosa, Banks, Bell, Marion and Stoudamire.

I checked and it looks like Tinsley only took 7 FGA until the start of the 4th QTR. It's conceivable that by the 4th QTR, Tinsley had more "gas left in the tank" because all he was doing was "directing traffic and passing the ball" as opposed to taking shots and therefore expending more energy ( which Dunleavy and Granger were doing all game long ).

I'm just saying that there can be a small ( but valid ) argument made that Tinsley had not choice but to take over simply because no one else was capable of making or taking a shot. I shift the majority of the blame over to JO'B for not recognizing this and pulling anybody outside of Tinsley out of the lineup and putting in Marquis in earlier ( or even Ike ) to try to get some "fresh legs" out there. As Mal alluded to.....JO'B may simply be a bad in-game coach and we are seeing the end-result here.