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Major Cold
05-27-2008, 04:45 PM
Joe is not what this team needs. He would not be able to handle Pfs in this league. If Granger struggles, what makes you think Alexander will thrive?

Shade
05-27-2008, 05:05 PM
DJ White to the Pistons? I can see Shade throwing up right now.

But he is the epitome of a hardworking type of player that they would value. He would be very helpful to the Pacers as well, as we have no real identity and need a hard worker like that.

:puke:

That would suck. Hard.

We REALLY need to nab another first rounder or two in this draft.

Anthem
05-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Yeah, obviously I'm right there with you. I just can't believe people could be off on him, so I can't expect him to be great. But I sure do like his all-around game and mentality on the court. Ad naseum, he's a bit like a McKey SG I think. Will he really be better than Kareem though?
I admit I'm intrigued by him. The problem, though, is that you're drafting him and giving him his brother's spot. That's just wacked out, interpersonally. It would be weird for the guys on the team, weird for him, and super weird for Kareem. Just seems like it could negatively effect the chemistry.

CDR seems safer.

Shade
05-27-2008, 05:22 PM
If the Clippers really want Augustin, how about we trade up? They take Gordon at #7, we take Augustin at #11, and we throw in something to make it worth their while.

Anthem
05-27-2008, 07:27 PM
If the Clippers really want Augustin, how about we trade up? They take Gordon at #7, we take Augustin at #11, and we throw in something to make it worth their while.
That's a pretty good thought. Why don't you start a poll on it?

:devil:

croz24
05-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Well I didn't get to see much WVA but when I did I sure didn't get that out of what I saw.

I mean Best Player?!? Beasley is clearly faster, better using both hands, going both directions and rebounding. Who was saying he was the best player in NCAA for nearly a full season, yet never mentioned in the same breath as Rose/Beasley?

I'm not being a wisea** about this, I'm being serious. If you say "here's this ESPN article" or "SI said the following..." I'm all ears. I just didn't hear others speak of him at that level and when I got to see him play I felt like he was perhaps Hansbrough-ish. I was definitely more impressed with Donte Green.

i'm not saying we should draft joe at #11. do i prefer him over augustin, love, and westbrook? hell yea. there's others i'd prefer at #11 but i wouldn't be too disappointed if we got joe. donte green imo would be a solid fit for this team and is essentially a top 10 talent who just hasn't lived up to his potential yet. green fits the pacers probably moreso than joe, but i doubt we draft either.

and yes, there was about a 2-3 week stretch where joe was unstoppable in
big east play. but IF we do draft him, he can surely be equivalent to what jeff green is in seattle. there really isn't much of a difference between the two as far as size. green is a better defender, joe is stronger...

Anthem
05-27-2008, 11:51 PM
IF we do draft him, he can surely be equivalent to what jeff green is in seattle.
A secondary player on the worst team in the league?

Naptown_Seth
05-27-2008, 11:58 PM
I finally got to see that vid of Walker, CDR, Mayo, Wagner. Great to see them running the exact same drills together like that, you really can compare their skill set much better.

Mayo - compact, explosive moves, best all-around athlete, tendency here to improvise a bit (in a negative way)

Walker - something of a slow, uncontrolled dribble but makes up for it with long, strong strides, powerful coming to the rim...shorter than CDR it appears which I didn't realize

CDR - I'm bothered by him here, his dribble is WAY too high IMO, it wasn't just one time, it appears to be how he likes to handle it. I think that will bite him in the NBA.


They aren't far apart but they aren't the same either. CDR does have the array of scoring moves, but I was already a little bearish on him and now moreso.

Naptown_Seth
05-28-2008, 12:00 AM
I admit I'm intrigued by him. The problem, though, is that you're drafting him and giving him his brother's spot. That's just wacked out, interpersonally. It would be weird for the guys on the team, weird for him, and super weird for Kareem. Just seems like it could negatively effect the chemistry.

CDR seems safer.
Agreed. I've thought this too. It does seem uncomfortable, though I guess that would depend on where Kareem ends up (or if he's gone at all).

croz24
05-28-2008, 12:03 AM
A secondary player on the worst team in the league?

are we talking about the same jeff green here? the big east player of the year in 2007 jeff green? the same jeff green who led the hoyas to the final four in 2007? the 1st team all rookie team in 2008 jeff green? the same jeff green who was selected 5th overall in last year's draft and average 11ppg 5rpg and started 52games at pf as a rookie?

Anthem
05-28-2008, 01:15 AM
are we talking about the same jeff green here? the big east player of the year in 2007 jeff green? the same jeff green who led the hoyas to the final four in 2007? the 1st team all rookie team in 2008 jeff green? the same jeff green who was selected 5th overall in last year's draft and average 11ppg 5rpg and started 52games at pf as a rookie?
Yeah, my bad. SECOND-worst team in the league. I forgot about Miami.

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:35 AM
Yeah, my bad. SECOND-worst team in the league. I forgot about Miami.

let's see...

jeff green rookie year: 10.5ppg 4.7rpg 1.5apg .6bpg .6spg .427fg% .744ft% all nba rookie 1st team

danny granger rookie year: 7.5ppg 4.9rpg 1.2apg .8bpg .7spg .462fg% .777ft% all nba rookie 2nd team

look pretty similar to me...

so are you saying you finally agree with me that granger is a secondary player?

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:55 AM
who wants to jump aboard the lester hudson bandwagon with me?

Will Galen
05-28-2008, 09:39 AM
who wants to jump aboard the lester hudson bandwagon with me?

I like him with our second round pick, but if we got another first round pick and took Rush for instant, I would look for another Euro to keep overseas. This is working for the Spurs, and I think Bird is trying it to do the same.

I was going to post my mock draft picks in another post, but this will do. As I've already said I'll have a mock draft contest up in another couple weeks, so I'm already working on my draft. If enough people want me to put it up earlier let me know, I already have it 90% done.

My mock draft as of right now.

DRAFT PICKS
[1] Chicago ............Rose
Point guards like Rose don't come along very often so I think they will pick Rose and trade Hinrich. This is what most of the rumors are saying also.

[2] Miami ................Beasley
Mayo has been working out with Wade. I think Miami will look to trade down and pick Mayo, but they will pick Beasley for someone else.

[3] Minnesota .........Mayo
Rumor is McHale likes Love and wants to trade down for him. However, this could be a responce to Miami looking to trade down for Mayo. Maybe McHale wants Mayo too, so he says he wants Love so Miami will go ahead and make a deal with Seattle(?). However, McHale would then pick Mayo. I think if Miami really wants Mayo they better pick him. Of couse they might not care with Beasley being the result if a trade doesn't work.

[4] Seattle ...............Bayless

[5] Memphis ...........Randolph
They need to replace Gasol.

[6] New York ...........Gallinari
There's a rumor I agree with that with Rose, Mayo, and Bayless all gone, Walsh will pick Gallinari.

[7] LA Clippers .......Augustine
Another team that rumor has looking to trade down. This time for Augustine. However, if the Pacers are a threat to take him at 11 why not just take him here. I think they will. If they take Gordon here though I'll think there's a chance they are trading with us. Of course with the rumor Meggette will opt out they might take him for themselves and hope Livingston comes though at the point.

[8] Milwaukee .........Gordon
Gordon's former coach is now with Milwaukee. I don't think he gets past here.

[9] Charlotte ............Love
I think they will take Love for themselves or do a trade with Minny if McHale really wants him. Lopez is still here too.

[10] New Jersey .....Lopez
I don't really see Lopez down this far but here he is. NJ would gladly take him.

[11] Indiana .............Westbrook
It wouldn't surprise me if we took a big here. Westbrook for sure if we can get another 1st round pick and take a big. Of course if we traded with Portland and got Przybilla in the deal we would probably take Brandon Rush here.

[12] Sacramento .....Arthur
With Bibby gone they need a point guard, but it looks like they will have to do a trade to get one.

[13] Portland ...........Alexandria
If they traded their pick it could be anybody.

[14] Golden State ...Jordan

Anthem
05-28-2008, 10:15 AM
so are you saying you finally agree with me that granger is a secondary player?

:laugh: Man, you are touchy.

Danny's rookie year he was playing behind Ron Artest and then Peja on a team that made the playoffs.

Green was playing behind... nobody. I'm fairly sure that if the Pacers had been as depleted as the Sonics, Danny could have managed an extra bucket and FT a game.





And for the record, nobody on the entire board thinks Danny's going to be the best player on a contending team. That's not why people disagree with you. They disagree because they don't think it's anywhere near a sure thing that anyone outside of the top-2 in this draft will be any better.

Hicks
05-28-2008, 10:36 AM
croz24, you forgot to mention that Danny did that in about 22 minutes while Jeff did that in about 28 minutes.

It took him half of a quarter to put up 3 more points.

Rajah Brown
05-28-2008, 11:23 AM
Anthem-

As hesitant as I am to hop into the sidecar of croz24's wayward
jalopy, I differ on your last point. Given that Duns can play SF
and may even be more suitable there than SG, is the combo of
him at SF and whomever we could get via the draft at whatever
slot DG would bring better than the combo of DG at SF and
Duns at SG or whomever (Mayo, Bayless, etc.) at another
position ?

croz24
05-28-2008, 12:09 PM
wayward jalopy? anthem is the one who called an nba rookie 1st teamer a "secondary player", not me. i think given the way green played and finished his rookie season, that is a pretty inaccurate assessment.

so i'm off defending guys like deron williams, steve nash, and jeff green from comments made on this board, and it's wayward jalopy? hmm :rolleyes:

Speed
05-28-2008, 12:12 PM
Beware of average players on bad teams.

Ask Al Harrington.

I have no idea if that's the case 5 years from now, but it is right now.

count55
05-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Beware of average players on bad teams.

Ask Al Harrington.

I have no idea if that's the case 5 years from now, but it is right now.

I don't know what this means.

Well, I'm pretty sure I know what this means...generally.

I just don't what this means in the context of this particular conversation.

Since86
05-28-2008, 12:37 PM
wayward jalopy? anthem is the one who called an nba rookie 1st teamer a "secondary player", not me. i think given the way green played and finished his rookie season, that is a pretty inaccurate assessment.

so i'm off defending guys like deron williams, steve nash, and jeff green from comments made on this board, and it's wayward jalopy? hmm :rolleyes:

Are you really trying to say that because he made all rookie first team, he's a primary player, as opposed to a secondary one?

Let's take a look at some past 1st team players, shall we. (since the 2000 season)

05-06
Chris Paul, New Orleans/Okla. City
Charlie Villanueva, Toronto
Andrew Bogut, Milwaukee
Deron Williams, Utah
Channing Frye, New York

04-05
Emeka Okafor, Charlotte
Dwight Howard, Orlando
Ben Gordon, Chicago
Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
Luol Deng, Chicago

03-04
Carmelo Anthony, Denver
LeBron James, Cleveland
Dwyane Wade, Miami
Chris Bosh, Toronto
Kirk Hinrich, Chicago

02-03
Yao Ming, Houston
Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix
Caron Butler, Miami
Drew Gooden, Orlando
Nene Hilario, Denver

01-02
Pau Gasol, Memphis
Shane Battier, Memphis
Jason Richardson, Golden State
Tony Parker, San Antonio
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah

00-01
Mike Miller, Orlando
Kenyon Martin, New Jersey
Marc Jackson, Golden State
Morris Peterson, Toronto
Darius Miles, L.A. Clippers

99-00
Elton Brand, Chicago
Steve Francis, Houston
Lamar Odom, L.A. Clippers
Wally Szczerbiak, Minnesota
Andre Miller, Cleveland

All of those are/were primary players on their respected teams? How did Daruis Miles turn out for you? Or Wally, or Nene, or Marc Jackson?

Just because they're named to first team, automatically places them as primary players for you?

Your defense of Steve Nash? Maybe you can defend him from not being on the rookie first team, hell he wasn't even voted onto the second team. The future HOF'er Brevin Knight beat him out for second team honors.

Jonathan
05-28-2008, 12:46 PM
who wants to jump aboard the lester hudson bandwagon with me?

I have been on the Lester Hudson Bandwagon for some time but not with our first round pick unless we trade down.

Jonathan
05-28-2008, 12:51 PM
I am for trading down the in the draft. We could swap first rounders with New Orleans and pick up Mo Pete/ New Orleans First rounder for Tinsley & the 11thp pick. I would love to then take a look at Lester Hudson/Mario Chalmers/R Lopez at their pick and we rid ourselves of Tinsley.

Naptown_Seth
05-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Green is a quality player, perhaps even Danny quality. Sorry Croz, I wouldn't trade Green for a top 5 pick this year either.

As said, the issue is this "sure thing pick" that doesn't exist.

As for Dun + pick upgrade for DG vs Danny + pick upgrade for Dun, I'll take the Danny version. Neither Dun nor Danny are getting you Rose, Beasley or Mayo, probably not Bayless either. Beyond that it's moot, you're just swapping for a slightly young 2nd fiddle, one you can already get at 11.



I just don't what this means in the context of this particular conversation
He's saying Jeff Green puts up decent numbers and ends up drawing a Harrington rep, as in better than he really is, and you overpay or overtrade for him. Don't trust the numbers of a guy on a poor team as the best representation of what he is.

I partially agree, though the argument is also made that keeping a high FG% when you are the only option and have no one to pass to or to get you the ball is a sign of quality. I mean "Kobe/Lebron for MVP" is centered around this idea that doing well on a team that is otherwise bad means that you are good. For Green/Durant the issue is the W-L record.

Personally I got to see Green play a few times this year and really like his game. I think Seattle took a great first step, and really Durant was the chucker on that team loading up empty stats IMO. No rush, kids are learning on the fly. Too bad Seattle fans won't get to enjoy the payoff.

rexnom
05-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Jeff Green is going to be a solid yet unspectacular player. I don't think he'll be better than Granger, but I think he'll be a nice complement to Durant. He certainly had a solid rookie year.

Major Cold
05-28-2008, 01:01 PM
Give Danny the same minutes and have him be invovled in the offense as much as Green, then I would see Danny scoring more points.

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:20 PM
do any of you even realize how jeff green was brought into this conversation? i merely used green as a comparison for joe alexander. which is a good comparison imo. anthem said green was a secondary player. i responded with granger and green's rookie year stats saying they were SIMILAR. never said green was better his rookie season. i said they were SIMILAR. and then you all go off on this top 5 thing again. wow.

but naptown and speed - can the same "average players on bad teams" not be applied to granger? granger has only put up his good stats on a bad pacers team has he not?

but seriously, most of you are so quick to jump on me regardless of what is stated.

since86 - i really don't think you should have posted that list because the vast majority of those players are indeed primary players. but did i ever state green was a primary player? i stated it is too quick to judge green based off the way he played and finished last season.

i question whether the people on this board even read the posts that are made.

count55
05-28-2008, 01:21 PM
He's saying Jeff Green puts up decent numbers and ends up drawing a Harrington rep, as in better than he really is, and you overpay or overtrade for him. Don't trust the numbers of a guy on a poor team as the best representation of what he is.


What confuses me on this is that you could easily say that he was saying that Danny was an "average player" (which I would think was poormouthing Danny) on a poor team (which I think many of us would think was a relatively fair assessment of this last version of the Pacers).

The statement, without any names, leaves a lot open to interpretation and is ambiguous (without specific understanding of the posters perspective) as to which side he's supporting.

(By the by, I'm solidly in the "Danny's a pretty good player, but not a franchise guy, and there aren't any sure things in this draft worth dealing him for outside of Rose and probably Beasley" camp.)

Speed
05-28-2008, 01:36 PM
He's saying Jeff Green puts up decent numbers and ends up drawing a Harrington rep, as in better than he really is, and you overpay or overtrade for him. Don't trust the numbers of a guy on a poor team as the best representation of what he is.


Yep, exactly.

Since86
05-28-2008, 01:36 PM
wayward jalopy? anthem is the one who called an nba rookie 1st teamer a "secondary player", not me. i think given the way green played and finished his rookie season, that is a pretty inaccurate assessment.


since86 - i really don't think you should have posted that list because the vast majority of those players are indeed primary players. but did i ever state green was a primary player? i stated it is too quick to judge green based off the way he played and finished last season.

i question whether the people on this board even read the posts that are made.

Yes, a vast majority are primary players, but there's also quite a few that are not. That is my point, which you obviously missed. Just because you're voted first team, or even second team, doesn't necessarily mean that you're career will be a good one. Just like if you say that this year's number 3 pick will turn out great because Michael Jordan was also picked third.

Yes, there are a lot of good players picked number 3, but there are also a lot of bad ones. There are a lot of players that lead their respected teams now that made the all rookie first team, but that's not always the case.

Just because he made the team doesn't verify that it's an inaccurate assesment.

I read the posts, you're just missing the point.

OakMoses
05-28-2008, 01:40 PM
This whole thing's gotten a little silly.

Here's my two cents.

Jeff Green is a good player. He's has the potential to develop into a great complementary player to Kevin Durant. He's a skilled player who does a lot of things well. I'd love to have him on the Pacers. I don't, however, think that he's a true PF at this point and guys like Brand, Boozer, and Duncan will eat him alive.

I don't know that he's a good comparison for Joe Alexander. I think Kevin Love is more comparable, other than that Green is a big SF and Love is an average-sized PF. They are both highly skilled players who understand nuances and do a lot of little things well. Alexander is less well-rounded and more athletic than either of these guys. I think he'll wind up being a better scorer than either Love or Green at the NBA level. I really don't think that he brings as much to the table in total as either Green or Love.

Speed
05-28-2008, 01:41 PM
What confuses me on this is that you could easily say that he was saying that Danny was an "average player" (which I would think was poormouthing Danny) on a poor team (which I think many of us would think was a relatively fair assessment of this last version of the Pacers).

The statement, without any names, leaves a lot open to interpretation and is ambiguous (without specific understanding of the posters perspective) as to which side he's supporting.

(By the by, I'm solidly in the "Danny's a pretty good player, but not a franchise guy, and there aren't any sure things in this draft worth dealing him for outside of Rose and probably Beasley" camp.)

Danny has a body of work at least, he's been on some semi talented teams and more importantly he's shown marked improvement all 3 years.

To say Green has been anything other than an average player on a really bad team is hype at this point. Yes, he's young and he may very well be really good, until then he is what he is. I don't care if he was Ronald McDonald himself in highschool.

Rajah Brown
05-28-2008, 01:41 PM
Croz24-

The 'wayward jalopy' I was (with tongue in cheek) re'ing to is your
incessant lobbying to strongly consider trading Granger if a deal
warrants it. I happen to agree with that while most others
obviously do not (or at least would define what warrants it
differently). I was just offering an alternative to Anthem's
question as to wether the guy we'd pick in the slot aquired
for DG would be better than DG. As I said, on the contrary,
the question is, are that guy (Mayo, etc.) and Duns at SF
a better combo long term than DG at SF and Duns at SG now ?

As for Green vs whomever, I'm with whoever re'd to stats on
crappy teams. They're basically meaningless (and that includes
all Pacer stats this past year).

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:42 PM
Yes, a vast majority are primary players, but there's also quite a few that are not. That is my point, which you obviously missed. Just because you're voted first team, or even second team, doesn't necessarily mean that you're career will be a good one. Just like if you say that this year's number 3 pick will turn out great because Michael Jordan was also picked third.

Yes, there are a lot of good players picked number 3, but there are also a lot of bad ones. There are a lot of players that lead their respected teams now that made the all rookie first team, but that's not always the case.

Just because he made the team doesn't verify that it's an inaccurate assesment.

I read the posts, you're just missing the point.

no i understand the point you were trying to make. not sure why you felt the need to jump into the discussion against me when i was only stating it's too early to tell whether green is a secondary player or not. green was a rookie who made the rookie 1st team. and looking at your list, i'd say green has a better chance of becoming a solid, primary player than he does of being a secondary player. so wouldn't you agree it's a little too early to be calling green a "secondary" player?

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:46 PM
Croz24-

The 'wayward jalopy' I was (with tongue in cheek) re'ing to is your
incessant lobbying to strongly consider trading Granger if a deal
warrants it. I happen to agree with that while most others
obviously do not (or at least would define what warrants it
differently). I was just offering an alternative to Anthem's
question as to wether the guy we'd pick in the slot aquired
for DG would be better than DG. As I said, on the contrary,
the question is, are that guy (Mayo, etc.) and Duns at SF
a better combo long term than DG at SF and Duns at SG now ?

As for Green vs whomever, I'm with whoever re'd to stats on
crappy teams. They're basically meaningless (and that includes
all Pacer stats this past year).

but i don't understand why you would say that when i have gone quite a while without mentioning granger needing to be traded for rose, bayless, beasley, mayo, or possibly randolph...i was not arguing granger needing to be traded in this discussion at all. i was comparing joe alexander to jeff green. then anthem felt the need to call green a secondary player after his Rookie season and being named to the rookie 1st team.

Since86
05-28-2008, 01:49 PM
Well I guess this is a private discussion board, and I wasn't invited.

Next time I have an opinion or some input I'll PM you and ask for permission.

As far as looking at the list and judging his performance against the previous first teamers, I think you should try and continue saying it's a premature assesment. If you look at each one of their rookie seasons, I think you'll find that they built a strong case to get placed on the list, just like Green did.

What they did after their first season is what is now judged to see if they turned out to be what they should have after their rookie year. Green had a good year, was selected to first team. We can compare him to Dwight Howard or Vin Baker based on all three being placed in the same spot. What he does is solely up to him, on what level he plays at next year.

I, for one, think that he's nothing but a role player who is in a position of being a focal point on an extremely bad team. You saying he's not a secondary player because he's a primary player for the Sonics is like me saying that Diener isn't a backup, because he's a starter for the Pacers.

croz24
05-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Danny has a body of work at least, he's been on some semi talented teams and more importantly he's shown marked improvement all 3 years.

To say Green has been anything other than an average player on a really bad team is hype at this point. Yes, he's young and he may very well be really good, until then he is what he is. I don't care if he was Ronald McDonald himself in highschool.

as i've stated, it's too early to call green a secondary player, especially after his solid rookie season...granger has been on ONE solid team. the two seasons he was on BAD teams is when you saw his MARKED IMPROVEMENT...i can't believe a jeff green to joe alexander comparison has turned into a jeff green vs danny granger argument. that's pacersdigest for you...

count55
05-28-2008, 01:56 PM
Danny has a body of work at least, he's been on some semi talented teams and more importantly he's shown marked improvement all 3 years.

To say Green has been anything other than an average player on a really bad team is hype at this point. Yes, he's young and he may very well be really good, until then he is what he is. I don't care if he was Ronald McDonald himself in highschool.

Cool, thanks for the clarification...I wasn't disagreeing, I was just a little confused.

Since86
05-28-2008, 02:00 PM
i can't believe a jeff green to joe alexander comparison has turned into a jeff green vs danny granger argument. that's pacersdigest for you...

Because you're talking about a player, Alexander, to be drafted by a team that already has two solid SFs, Granger and Dunleavy.

You compare the draftee, Alexander, to another player, Green, saying that he will be comparable.

Since you think the draftee, Alexander, will produce like Green, the debate now becomes which one is better, the one that we already have, Granger, or the one that we might draft, Alexander and his Jeff Green like production.

Does upside of Jeff Green/Joe Alexander over shadow the production/upside of Granger?

That's what's being debated.

I don't think the Green/Alexander comparision stands, but whatever. If I were to choose between a Jeff Green like player, or between Granger, I would choose Granger.

Don't draft Alexander, the Jeff Green like player, and draft for another need.

Speed
05-28-2008, 02:03 PM
Cool, thanks for the clarification...I wasn't disagreeing, I was just a little confused.

No problem, it was confusing. :buddies:

croz24
05-28-2008, 02:06 PM
Because you're talking about a player, Alexander, to be drafted by a team that already has two solid SFs, Granger and Dunleavy.

You compare the draftee, Alexander, to another player, Green, saying that he will be comparable.

Since you think the draftee, Alexander, will produce like Green, the debate now becomes which one is better, the one that we already have, Granger, or the one that we might draft, Alexander and his Jeff Green like production.

Does upside of Jeff Green/Joe Alexander over shadow the production/upside of Granger?

That's what's being debated.

never said joe should be drafted by the pacers. i wouldn't hate that selection, but i've not called for it. i like joe as a player and think he could bring plenty to our team. jeff green played some pf for seattle. joe alexander Could play sf/pf for the pacers. meaning joe could play ALONGSIDE danny. why does this have to turn into a who's better when danny and joe could play next to each other?

Since86
05-28-2008, 02:22 PM
i'm hoping we come out of the draft with Joe Alexander and Bill Walker

walker at SG, granger at SF, and Alexander at PF would be a nice threesome (no homo) in JOB's fast paced system

The above post is what got the discussion rolling, notice the first sentence.

I didn't say YOU wanted to draft him, now did I?

Alexander won't play PF, which is why I said I didn't think the comparison was valid.

croz24
05-28-2008, 02:34 PM
alexander may not but he certainly could. he's short, but is strong enough, long enough, and most certainly athletic enough to play the pf position. if bosh can become a top 5 pf in this league, i don't doubt for one second joe could play pf. the majority of his offensive game at wv was down low and he did usually guard the opponents top big man...shawne williams can be a pf at 6'9 220 but a MUCH more athletic and longer joe alexander at 6'8 235 can't? if the pacers could somehow manage a shot blocking big at C, a lineup of dun, granger, alexander is feasible imo. 1 of those 3 could be your 6th man.

Young
05-28-2008, 02:40 PM
If the Pacers draft Joe A it is not a matter of him being like Jeff Green or out producing Danny Granger. If Bird picks Joe I doubt its because he has doubts about Danny or Mike's game. Its would be because Joe is the best player on the board.

If the Pacers take Joe its because they feel he will be the best player out of the ones remaining and maybe he can play the 4. Whats the worst thing that happens? Joe turns into a fine player and we have to deal him down the road for a need?

count55
05-28-2008, 02:46 PM
If the Pacers draft Joe A it is not a matter of him being like Jeff Green or out producing Danny Granger. If Bird picks Joe I doubt its because he has doubts about Danny or Mike's game. Its would be because Joe is the best player on the board.

If the Pacers take Joe its because they feel he will be the best player out of the ones remaining and maybe he can play the 4. Whats the worst thing that happens? Joe turns into a fine player and we have to deal him down the road for a need?

It's important to have a clear idea of "the worst thing that could happen" because, around here lately, that's pretty much what we get.

Major Cold
05-28-2008, 02:49 PM
Trading a player with talent on a rookie scale contract is easier than say Harrington. But what we have to realize if we draft Joe because he is the best talent and trade him later, then when will this roster get continuity?

Hicks
05-28-2008, 03:01 PM
Well I guess this is a private discussion board, and I wasn't invited.

Next time I have an opinion or some input I'll PM you and ask for permission.

I don't think that was necessary.....

Since86
05-28-2008, 03:07 PM
What reply would you like me have when someone says they don't understand why I would jump into a discussion?

Would he understand if I was jumping in to help him out?

As long as I'm not trolling, then what my motives are for posting something relevant to the discussion really doesn't matter.

croz24
05-28-2008, 03:22 PM
What reply would you like me have when someone says they don't understand why I would jump into a discussion?

Would he understand if I was jumping in to help him out?

As long as I'm not trolling, then what my motives are for posting something relevant to the discussion really doesn't matter.

i felt you jumped in for the sole purpose to attack me based on previous posts/threads. that is why i questioned. and when you did post, you completely took my words out of context in order to make yourself look good.

Since86
05-28-2008, 03:31 PM
:lol: I hardly even look at who posts what, I just read in order.

Don't be so paranoid.

croz24
05-28-2008, 03:39 PM
george hill supposedly has made a solid first impression

Hicks
05-28-2008, 04:04 PM
I think you're both overreacting to one another.....

Pacersfan46
05-28-2008, 04:50 PM
Mmmmm the ignore option ... tastes great, and less filling!



-- Steve --

Major Cold
05-28-2008, 04:54 PM
run from your fights that is what mom always says...

Pacersfan46
05-28-2008, 05:58 PM
run from your fights that is what mom always says...

In person, no.

On the internet, yes.

Fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olymipics, even if you win you're still retarded.

-- Steve --

owl
05-28-2008, 06:20 PM
It takes two to have a fight. If you have said your peace, leave it that and don't
respond again. Works for me.

croz24
05-28-2008, 11:08 PM
hey, all i did was compare joe alexander to jeff green and all hell broke loose. wasn't trying to start an argument at all. i don't care though. if people are going to come at me for no reason, i'll respond...

does anybody think hill will stay in the draft this year, even if he's a late 2nd? i know for a fact he's been wanting to leave since after freshman season and that injury his sophomore season really held him back. another year at iupui and with next year's draft being much weaker, i'd think he could become an early 2nd/late 1st. he has been pretty adament about wanting to leave so idk. what say you?

Anthem
05-28-2008, 11:30 PM
hey, all i did was compare joe alexander to jeff green and all hell broke loose.
I think where you started to lose people was a little earlier, actually, where you said that Joe was "arguably the nation's best player the last 3/4ths of last season."

I still haven't figured out what you disagreed with from my post. Regardless, though, he won't be picked by the Pacers so it's a moot point. Even if we traded Granger for the #1 pick, we still wouldn't need another small forward with Dun and Shawne at the position. And I think you'd agree that it's very unlikely that he's the best player on the board at #11.

croz24
05-28-2008, 11:54 PM
I think where you started to lose people was a little earlier, actually, where you said that Joe was "arguably the nation's best player the last 3/4ths of last season."

I still haven't figured out what you disagreed with from my post. Regardless, though, he won't be picked by the Pacers so it's a moot point. Even if we traded Granger for the #1 pick, we still wouldn't need another small forward with Dun and Shawne at the position. And I think you'd agree that it's very unlikely that he's the best player on the board at #11.

to be honest, joe was Arguably the nation's best player the last 3/4ths of last season. rmk stated such. draft sites have stated such. college gamenight stated it. the stats state it. my eyes state it. if not for the 2nd half of last season, joe does not come out for this year's draft.

starting february 23rd...
Providence - 21pts 7rbs
@ Depaul - 17pts 3rbs
@ Uconn - 32pts 10rbs
Pitt - 32pts 6rbs
@ St. John's - 29pts 10rbs
Providence - 22pts 6rbs
@ Uconn - 34pts 7rbs
@ G'town - 12pts 5rbs
NCAAs
Arizona - 14pts 8rbs
Duke - 22pts 11rbs
Xavier - 18pts 10rbs

...that averages out to 23pts 7.6rbs over approximately the last 3/4ths of the season. and wv was much more of a team oriented offense than kansas st was...joe also led his lesser talented team further in the tourney...

if it's between joe, love, westbrook, augustin, of course i'd take joe. with the way joe has been working out and his raw ability, joe may very well go top 10. and yes i do believe he can play spot pf in the nba. arthur is the same size as joe, is projected as a pf, but doesn't have joe's strength or athleticism...at #11 the only players i'd consider taking before joe who could realistically be there are jordan, greene, and walker (if he improves his draft stock even more). but i'm also one who wants to move up to take a sliding mayo/bayless/randolph, or trade back to the late teens/20's. the last player i want at #11 is a pg by the name of augustin or a combo guard by the name of westbrook...

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 09:55 AM
george hill supposedly has made a solid first impression

He will be available at the 41st position. He does have a solid NBA Body & Speed.

Since86
05-29-2008, 11:27 AM
I wasn't aware that it was a fight. The amount of times a message board has gotten my upset is few and far between.

Actually, I think it's rather funny someone has to ask someone's motives for posting their opinion on a message board. And I think this is the first time we've ever interacted in a thread, it's not like I've been disagreeing with him in and out of every thread he posts in.

There's no reason for the thread to come to a screeching hault.

docpaul
05-29-2008, 11:43 AM
He will be available at the 41st position. He does have a solid NBA Body & Speed.

I hope they sign him outside of the draft...

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 02:00 PM
I hope they sign him outside of the draft...

If George Hill does not get drafted he will be playing another season at IUPUI. He has not hired an agent. I am huge fan of the kid b/c he singlehandly beat the Carmel Greyhounds in the sectional game his senior year of highschool. He scored 40 pts on them.

croz24
05-29-2008, 03:57 PM
If George Hill does not get drafted he will be playing another season at IUPUI. He has not hired an agent. I am huge fan of the kid b/c he singlehandly beat the Carmel Greyhounds in the sectional game his senior year of highschool. He scored 40 pts on them.

i wouldn't be too sure about him returning to iupui if that's the case. yes, he should probably go back, but hill has been VERY adament about going pro. it's all he's talked about since his freshman year at iupui. he's definitely good enough to catch on to a team though. it's a shame a 38ppg high school scorer in indiana had to settle for an iupui...

Jonathan
05-29-2008, 04:09 PM
i wouldn't be too sure about him returning to iupui if that's the case. yes, he should probably go back, but hill has been VERY adament about going pro. it's all he's talked about since his freshman year at iupui. he's definitely good enough to catch on to a team though. it's a shame a 38ppg high school scorer in indiana had to settle for an iupui...

The Mike Davis ERA at IU. If nobody drafts him you think he would look to get on team via free agency or overseas rather than play at IUPUI? If he transfers he has to sit out a year. Keep in mind IUPUI did not make the tourney last year. Odds are he plays one more year at IUPUI ;if not drafted and then ends up a late first to early second round pick next year!

croz24
05-29-2008, 04:36 PM
The Mike Davis ERA at IU. If nobody drafts him you think he would look to get on team via free agency or overseas rather than play at IUPUI? If he transfers he has to sit out a year. Keep in mind IUPUI did not make the tourney last year. Odds are he plays one more year at IUPUI ;if not drafted and then ends up a late first to early second round pick next year!

well, i dated a girl for a short while and was good friends with her for two years who is/was best friends with hill. thedoddage can vouch for me on this. so we pretty much had all iupui basketball team inside information at our disposal. all she said hill talked about was the nba and how he wanted nothing to do with iupui after his sophomore season. obviously, he injured himself that year and was forced to come back. it's been a year since i've talked to her, but i don't see why he would change his mindset on this. he wants the nba at all costs.

Major Cold
05-29-2008, 04:43 PM
well, i dated a girl for a short while and was good friends with her for two years who is/was best friends with hill. thedoddage can vouch for me on this. so we pretty much had all iupui basketball team inside information at our disposal. all she said hill talked about was the nba and how he wanted nothing to do with iupui after his sophomore season. obviously, he injured himself that year and was forced to come back. it's been a year since i've talked to her, but i don't see why he would change his mindset on this. he wants the nba at all costs.


So does Mateen Cleaves.

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 05:54 PM
So does Mateen Cleaves.

That's cruel!

Another one who left college early to follow their NBA dream only to crash and burn. Oh wait, he didn't go to IU like so many others did that crashed and burned. Sorry, but the devil made me say that.

As far as George Hill goes, whoever said if he didn't get drafted he'd go back to IUPUI. Sorry, but that's incorrect. If he doesn't get drafted it means he stayed in the draft, thus giving up his right to return to college. His only NBA hope is being invited to camp by a NBA team.

If Hill is a PG, what's his size? Anyone know?

owl
05-29-2008, 06:55 PM
6'2" and long armed. Looks to be in good shape also.

Major Cold
05-29-2008, 08:42 PM
That's cruel!

Another one who left college early to follow their NBA dream only to crash and burn. Oh wait, he didn't go to IU like so many others did that crashed and burned. Sorry, but the devil made me say that.

As far as George Hill goes, whoever said if he didn't get drafted he'd go back to IUPUI. Sorry, but that's incorrect. If he doesn't get drafted it means he stayed in the draft, thus giving up his right to return to college. His only NBA hope is being invited to camp by a NBA team.

If Hill is a PG, what's his size? Anyone know?

Not if he doesn't sign with an agent and gets drafted. Then he can go back to college (with a suspension I am pretty sure) like Randolph Morris.

http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/morris_070323.html

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 08:56 PM
Not if he doesn't sign with an agent and gets drafted. Then he can go back to college (with a suspension I am pretty sure) like Randolph Morris.

http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/morris_070323.html


Thank you for correcting my booboo. Interesting info to file away for the future.

I remember the story of Zeke getting Morris while others didn't realize he could do it. Really is moot now since Morris never did anything for the Knicks.

Justin Tyme
05-29-2008, 09:09 PM
6'2" and long armed. Looks to be in good shape also.


He seems to have had a good day today in Orlando. Interesting situation. It really would be nice to have a player from Indiana on the team. I'm not referring to Gordon either. 41st pick is probably too high for Hill, but maybe Bird could acquire a late 2nd round pick to get him. Interesting.

wintermute
05-29-2008, 11:27 PM
from chad ford, brook lopez might be slipping, while mario chalmers is climbing up

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Orlandodraftnotes080529



The word among NBA executives drafting in the lottery is that Stanford's Brook Lopez may be the top name who could slip out of the Top 10. I spoke with a number of executives and scouts who said they thought he was a more appropriate pick in the 10 to 20 range. Some of them had both Kevin Love and DeAndre Jordan ranked ahead of Lopez on their draft boards.

That's out of sorts with what I've been told for months. What's changed?

"This is a process," one NBA GM said. "We are gathering information, going back to the tape and looking at things, and we're just getting a better feel for players. I know a lot of guys on our staff, me included, are worried about Brook. In fact, I'd say half our guys think his brother [Robin Lopez] will be a better NBA player. Workouts will really be important for him. I think we have a lot of questions about him right now."

Chalmers

While Lopez may be in danger of falling later in the lottery than originally projected, another prospect seems to be rising by the minute.

Kansas point guard Mario Chalmers is coming off a huge NCAA championship game and it seems to have worked miracles on his draft stock.

I spoke with two executives that had Chalmers as a potential lottery pick.

"If Russell Westbrook and D.J. Augustin are off the board by the time teams like the Pacers, Kings or Blazers pick, I wouldn't be shocked to hear Chalmers' name called. I think he's much better than you or anyone else has been giving him credit for."

I consistently spoke with scouts and executives throughout the year and only a few had Chalmers as a second-round pick -- let alone a lottery pick.

How can things change so quickly for a college junior who has consistently put up similar numbers throughout his career?

"The point guard position continues to increase in importance," one GM said. "For a team that really needs a leader, I think Chalmers is a really interesting prospect. He's not a spectacular athlete or passer, but he's fearless and he knows how to win. I'd love to have a guy like that on my team."

A few other NBA executives I spoke with said they had Chalmers ranked as a late first-round pick and said they doubted he was good enough to be a regular starter on a good team. However, they acknowledged the appeal and said it was possible in a draft that's starved for point guards, that after the Top 10, a team could reach for Chalmers.

Young
05-29-2008, 11:29 PM
If the Pacers draft Chalmers i'm not going to be too happy.

I just think had he not made that big shot he would be taken in the second round. No one would be talking about him without that shot.

I like Chalmers as a late 1rst-early second round pick but defiantly not earlier than 20.

Mr. Sobchak
05-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Everyone is sleeping on Lopez because he isnt that sexy of a pick. He might not have the potential to become a star but he could easily be a top 10-15 center in this leauge. I don't think 15 pts and 10 rbs a game is out of the question for him. If he is there at 11 and we don't draft him I will personally start a riot outside of conseco.

Major Cold
05-29-2008, 11:36 PM
Lopez got owed by Love all season long. So I am not surprised by this.

Anthem
05-29-2008, 11:48 PM
If he is there at 11 and we don't draft him I will personally start a riot outside of conseco.
I wouldn't go that far, but I'd sure be happy if we got him. Surely he won't drop out of the top 10, though, right?

Mr. Sobchak
05-29-2008, 11:55 PM
I wouldn't go that far, but I'd sure be happy if we got him. Surely he won't drop out of the top 10, though, right?

Charlotte will probably take him. They need front court depth badly.

croz24
05-30-2008, 12:03 AM
if you are looking for a top 10-20 center, draft lopez

Mr. Sobchak
05-30-2008, 12:14 AM
if you are looking for a top 10-20 center, draft lopez

Your expectations of our #11 pick seem mighty high. What caliber of player are you expecting at our draft position? All star? Role Player? I would be thrilled if we came away with a quality starting center from this draft.

croz24
05-30-2008, 12:36 AM
in every draft there are players selected #11 or later who become all-stars. it's about knowing who those players are or can be. i do not trust that bird knows who those players are. #11 would indeed be a good place for lopez. i personally don't like him, but it would be a solid pick for a team without much need. lopez as a top 5 pick is laughable imo, but teams always reach on bigs. lopez likely won't be a bust and should at least be an average to solid center. his ceiling just isn't as high as i'd like.

rexnom
05-30-2008, 12:50 AM
Charlotte will probably take him. They need front court depth badly.
Charlotte's a wild card. The question is, will they draft Lopez over Jordan or Love (assuming they're on the board)?

croz24
05-30-2008, 01:00 AM
charlotte has had a tendency to draft the established college star, but seeing as that hasn't really worked out for them, who knows what their plans are...one would assume they'd go after a big, but they could also make a play for alexander...imo, if lopez is there, they'd draft him. if not, their history says love...

croz24
05-30-2008, 01:40 AM
as you all know, i've been a sean singletary fan for, oh, about 4 years now and have never understood why he has always been so underappreciated. anyway, here's gottlieb's (insider) take on the 2 best pgs so far. two pgs i'd prefer over augustin at #11 btw...siap...

• Best point guard here so far
UNC's Ty Lawson, trailed closely by Sean Singletary


While Singletary is more refined than Lawson and seems to be using his experience from being here last year to his benefit, Lawson has an extra step that you just cannot teach. Lawson played tremendous defense on Lester Hudson (who is closer to 6-foot-1 than 6-3) in the first half of their game on Wednesday, while Singletary looked the part of an NBA point guard by defending his man for 94 feet, hounding and ball hawking all the way, and setting the tone for his team as any backup playmaker would in the league.



Singletary looks far more of a threat off the pick-and-roll, and while he only hit one shot, there is certain calmness about his approach that is likeable. Lawson looked good shooting the ball and though it did not go in much, his balance and rhythm were better than in college, when he played too fast at times.



In the end, scouts may like Lawson's ability to push the ball with great speed, but I am Singletary might be better to take in Round 2 as an all-around point who can step right in and contribute tomorrow.



Lawson may still be best served to come back, take UNC to another Final Four and deal with a draft class that does not have nearly the top-end point guard talent that this year's class does. With D.J. Augustin, Derrick Rose, O.J. Mayo, Eric Gordon, Jerryd Bayless and Russell Westbrook in the draft, only Brandon Jennings and Jrue Holiday have a chance to place themselves immediately ahead of Lawson next year.

Eindar
05-30-2008, 01:45 AM
Anyone else thing that the people who brought you Jonathan Bender will draft Javale McGee if nobody drops? Kid has very good ball-handling, passing, and offense, but is absolutely horrible on defense.

croz24
05-30-2008, 02:03 AM
Anyone else thing that the people who brought you Jonathan Bender will draft Javale McGee if nobody drops? Kid has very good ball-handling, passing, and offense, but is absolutely horrible on defense.

how pathetic is it when a two-time All-American by the name of nick fazekas completely dominates any and all competition while at nevada and can't scratch the first round, yet a nobody named javale mcgee does NOTHING while in college and is considered a lottery pick?

rexnom
05-30-2008, 03:27 AM
how pathetic is it when a two-time All-American by the name of nick fazekas completely dominates any and all competition while at nevada and can't scratch the first round, yet a nobody named javale mcgee does NOTHING while in college and is considered a lottery pick?
How's Fazekas doing in the NBA btw?

Justin Tyme
05-30-2008, 08:01 AM
i do not trust that bird knows who those players are.

Why would anyone trust Bird about knowing college or NBA players? Didn't he make a statement saying he didn't know the players in the NBA a couple years ago? Let's face it, his 06 drafting of Williams and White aren't exactly his shining moment for drafting players. Although, he didn't draft Balkman at 20 like Zeke did, but he could have picked Rondo, Farmar, Lowry, or Marcus Williams. It's not like the Pacers didn't need a PG, and drafting for a need should have been done.

I'm not saying Shawne is/will be a bust, but he wasn't the best pick for what the Pacers needed, a PG. Look at what we have for PG's now! I'd take any of Rondo, Lowry, or Farmar for Shawne right now. AND no, I have no confidence in Bird's ability to know what player is the right player to draft. I can only hope that he listens to others about who to draft this time. The Pacers future is depending on it!

Will Galen
05-30-2008, 09:39 AM
Why would anyone trust Bird about knowing college or NBA players? Didn't he make a statement saying he didn't know the players in the NBA a couple years ago? Let's face it, his 06 drafting of Williams and White aren't exactly his shining moment for drafting players. Although, he didn't draft Balkman at 20 like Zeke did, but he could have picked Rondo, Farmar, Lowry, or Marcus Williams. It's not like the Pacers didn't need a PG, and drafting for a need should have been done.

I'm not saying Shawne is/will be a bust, but he wasn't the best pick for what the Pacers needed, a PG. Look at what we have for PG's now! I'd take any of Rondo, Lowry, or Farmar for Shawne right now. AND no, I have no confidence in Bird's ability to know what player is the right player to draft. I can only hope that he listens to others about who to draft this time. The Pacers future is depending on it!

How do you know he didn't listen the other times?

The Pacers have a scouting department and no doubt listen to their scouts and get recommendations. I've read sometimes right before making a pick Donnie would ask each person in the green room who they wanted and then would go with the majority. Other times like with Dale Davis he would pick someone he really liked. I hear Bird does the same.

So we don't really know who did what in regard to picks unless it's in the media, and even then it could be at the urging of several scouts.

The thing is there's a lot of people that recognize talent. Some of them are obviously on this board. But there's way more to it than just being a talent evaluator. And even then it seems you have to be very lucky.

I attribute the Spurs four championships more to luck than anything else. Two number one picks that netted them Robinson and Duncan. Sure they had to surround them with the right players, but a lot of people could have done that.

The teams that win the championships are the ones that either get lucky in the draft or they have the money to buy players. Knowing this is basically why I've never been one to complain about management.

I like Bird because I know he's really trying. And he has been successful. He pulled Saras right out of Clevelands grasp.

Some will point to where he gave up two second rounders for James White and then cut him in training camp as being bad management. I liked that! It showed he will really go after players he likes, and it showed he's not afraid to do the right thing after a mistake.

I think the only thing that has ever been wrong with Bird's judgment is he didn't care if guys raised hell, he cared about how they played basketball. I think he now realizes some guys are more trouble than they are worth, and I think it's made him a better talent evaluator.

Now if he could just have some good luck instead of bad!

Naptown_Seth
05-30-2008, 11:31 AM
but naptown and speed - can the same "average players on bad teams" not be applied to granger? granger has only put up his good stats on a bad pacers team has he not?

Well my response clearly stated that I think the "on a bad team" thing cuts both ways. Guys get credit for being able to perform without help (ie, Kobe/Lebron for MVP) just as much as we might discount "empty" stats.

I think the minutes factor is just as critical or more so. You get all the touches because you are the only good player on a bad team, stats go up. Defense knows this is true and you face tougher situations, stats go down. In the end being on a bad team doesn't help any more than it hurts.

The problem is looking at the truly simplistic stats like PPG without looking at FG%. If you are shooting an Effective % of 59% on a bad team and on 20+ minutes, 8-9+ FGAs, then you are good, period.

28 ppg on 43% effective stinks, even if your team is winning. You're the chucker, even if it's an assigned role from the coach (ie, Durant).

And of course a bad team with a "good" player might be that the good player stinks on defense. I think that's strongly implied with the "beware good numbers on a bad team" point of view also.


Granger put up pretty good numbers and played decent but flawed defense, regardless of the team's W-L record. His PPG would go down with less touches, but if he's got Duncan and Parker and Bowen helping him then his production per minute/efficiency probably goes up because he can pick his spots and has help on defense that keeps him from overworking.

Justin Tyme
05-30-2008, 02:44 PM
How do you know he didn't listen the other times?

The Pacers have a scouting department and no doubt listen to their scouts and get recommendations. I've read sometimes right before making a pick Donnie would ask each person in the green room who they wanted and then would go with the majority. Other times like with Dale Davis he would pick someone he really liked. I hear Bird does the same.

So we don't really know who did what in regard to picks unless it's in the media, and even then it could be at the urging of several scouts.

The thing is there's a lot of people that recognize talent. Some of them are obviously on this board. But there's way more to it than just being a talent evaluator. And even then it seems you have to be very lucky.

I attribute the Spurs four championships more to luck than anything else. Two number one picks that netted them Robinson and Duncan. Sure they had to surround them with the right players, but a lot of people could have done that.

The teams that win the championships are the ones that either get lucky in the draft or they have the money to buy players. Knowing this is basically why I've never been one to complain about management.

I like Bird because I know he's really trying. And he has been successful. He pulled Saras right out of Clevelands grasp.

Some will point to where he gave up two second rounders for James White and then cut him in training camp as being bad management. I liked that! It showed he will really go after players he likes, and it showed he's not afraid to do the right thing after a mistake.

I think the only thing that has ever been wrong with Bird's judgment is he didn't care if guys raised hell, he cared about how they played basketball. I think he now realizes some guys are more trouble than they are worth, and I think it's made him a better talent evaluator.

Now if he could just have some good luck instead of bad!


I have always enjoyed reading your posts over the years, but after I started reading this post, I stopped to see if Bird's personal pitch man(Monteith) had written this post. It's nice you are a Bird fan, but you totally lost me, plus a mouth full of lemonade on the monitor, with your comment about Bird's success of pulling Saras right out of Cleveland's grasp. That's the type of success I'm afraid is all too common with Bird running the Pacers. I'd rather Bird had knowledge and expertise, they will get him further and put the Pacers in better shape for the future than luck. If Bird feels lucky, he can play a Barkley at the casino in French Lick.

Since86
05-30-2008, 03:38 PM
I have always enjoyed reading your posts over the years, but after I started reading this post, I stopped to see if Bird's personal pitch man(Monteith) had written this post. It's nice you are a Bird fan, but you totally lost me, plus a mouth full of lemonade on the monitor, with your comment about Bird's success of pulling Saras right out of Cleveland's grasp. That's the type of success I'm afraid is all too common with Bird running the Pacers. I'd rather Bird had knowledge and expertise, they will get him further and put the Pacers in better shape for the future than luck. If Bird feels lucky, he can play a Barkley at the casino in French Lick.

About the Saras thing.....

A handful of teams were bidding for him, and Bird not only managed to get him from Cleveland, but got him for less money and Indy didn't have his best friend on the roster, Z.

He had to have done one hell of a pitch job to get him to sign over them with those above two mentioned things because he signed to be apart of a contending team. In hindsight Cleveland has had a lot more success than us. Being able to sell that your team is ready to contend over a team with LeBron James on it, is pretty darn good.

The bad thing about Saras, was that he signed 3 years too late. He was past his prime, sliding down. The lore he made during the international tournaments and while he was on top for Tel Aviv (?) carried the legacy instead of showing a player who was slowing down. He most likely would have been one hell of a pickup had it happened sooner.

This wasn't just a gaffe by Bird, it was a gaffe by a lot of teams and experts. Chad Ford was all over the signing talking about how good it was, IIRC.

Yes, it was a blunder, but when it was happening it was thought to be a major pickup. Teams were fighting tooth and nail for his services.

Will Galen
05-30-2008, 03:50 PM
I have always enjoyed reading your posts over the years, but after I started reading this post, I stopped to see if Bird's personal pitch man(Monteith) had written this post. It's nice you are a Bird fan, but you totally lost me, plus a mouth full of lemonade on the monitor, with your comment about Bird's success of pulling Saras right out of Cleveland's grasp. That's the type of success I'm afraid is all too common with Bird running the Pacers. I'd rather Bird had knowledge and expertise, they will get him further and put the Pacers in better shape for the future than luck. If Bird feels lucky, he can play a Barkley at the casino in French Lick.


Sorry about your monitor! (grin)

As for luck, I thought it was clean the kind of luck I was talking about is the kind even the best need.

imawhat
05-30-2008, 03:54 PM
Yeah, the Pacers "winning" Saras was no slouch. We had the least attractive offer for Saras, imo, but somehow we got him.

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 05:20 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Orlandostockwatch080531
Draft Watch: The stars come out in Orlando

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/columnists/Ford_Chad_55.jpg By Chad Ford
ESPN.com

<!-- end page tools --><!-- begin story body -->ORLANDO, Fla. -- After three days of watching second-round players in pickup games, all eyes turned Friday to the top 15 American prospects in the NBA draft.

While the camp participants battled in front of a sparse crowd, most of the top NBA executives and coaches crowded into the corner of the gym to watch the players who chose to skip the camp go through some shooting, ballhandling and athletic drills.

Here's a quick hit at how they looked:

Michael Beasley (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19133), PF, Kansas State Beasley was the first player on the floor but the last to go through the workout. While other workouts were going on, we all watched in awe as Beasley drained NBA 3-pointer after NBA 3-pointer. That continued in the workouts, in which Beasley shot as well as any prospect here. Deep or midrange, Beasley can shoot the lights out.

I also caught a sneak peek of Beasley's vertical jump test. He touched the 11-foot-9 mark on his running jump. Assuming he has a standing reach of about 8-foot-10, that's a 35-inch vertical. Not off the charts, but not too shabby, either.

Derrick Rose (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19132), PG, Memphis
Rose won't look especially great in these drills. His jump shot is his weakness, though it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. He hit a respectable number of shots in the workouts and showed his value with his speed, leaping ability and ballhandling.

O.J. Mayo (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19129), SG, USC
Mayo's fundamentals really showed here. He looked as smooth and as comfortable as any of the prospects in the gym. His shot was falling from everywhere, and he showed great poise.

It was interesting to watch one front-office team -- from the Heat -- zero in on Mayo. Many times, NBA executives and scouts spend as much time talking as they do watching the action. When Mayo was on the floor, he had the undivided attention of Pat Riley and GM Randy Pfund.

Jerryd Bayless (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19137), PG, Arizona
Bayless also looked good in workouts. He ran the floor well, shot the ball well and looked like an all-around good prospect. He's slighter than most of the players he's competing against in the draft, but his skill really showed.

Anthony Randolph (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19157), PF, LSU
I thought Randolph really helped himself in this workout. He moves incredibly well for a big man, showed great quickness and leaping ability, and shot the ball much better than expected. Randolph also looked as if he has gained some weight, which should really help his cause. I think Randolph is one of the five top prospects in this draft.

Brook Lopez (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19042), C, Stanford
Lopez was one of the few prospects who didn't look great. These types of drills aren't really tailor-made for big men -- especially ones who don't have elite athleticism. Lopez did show some nice touch around the basket in some big man drills, but he wasn't going to stand out here.

Eric Gordon (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19131), SG, Indiana
Gordon is the strongest and possibly the biggest of the combo guards vying for a lottery pick. He seemed a little more tentative than some of the other prospects and shot some air balls and some eyebrow-raising jumpers at times. However, he calmed down as the workout went on and ended with a much more solid shooting performance in the final minutes.

D.J. Augustin (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19083), PG, Texas
Augustin showed his ability to shoot the basketball. He doesn't get to do a lot of point guard things here … and those are Augustin's forte. He definitely looked really small out there and doesn't have the explosive quickness or athleticism that some of the other prospects had, but overall, I thought Augustin looked good.

Russell Westbrook (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19241), PG, UCLA
Westbrook was another prospect who really helped his cause here. His quickness, explosiveness and ability to change direction were scintillating in workouts. He also shot the ball extremely well in a number of drills, answering the critics who claim he's not a good shooter. If you compared Westbrook and Augustin head-to-head in just the drills, Westbrook would win hands down. However, it's his ability to be a floor leader in the game that teams still question.

Kevin Love (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19130), PF, UCLA
Love also performed well here. He continues to slim down, and a number of scouts mentioned that he's in as good shape as they've ever seen him. Although Love doesn't run the floor the way some of the other top athletes do, he hustled up and down the floor and showed good athleticism.

Just as important, Love shot the ball very well in the workouts. At times, he looked like a guard out there. Love also did well in the strength training, bench-pressing the 185-pound bar 18 times.

DeAndre Jordan (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19136), C, Texas A&M
Jordan also has dropped some weight and looked in much better shape than we've seen him in the past. Although he runs the floor well, he struggled a bit in the skills portion of the workout. No real surprise here. He worked pretty hard … but there's no one with more questions swirling around him. Everyone loves him and hates him at the same time.

Darrell Arthur (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19062), PF, Kansas
I thought Arthur looked as skilled and athletic as any big man here. He exploded in some of the footwork drills, showed an excellent 15- to 18-foot jump shot and really flew up and down the floor. Arthur's ability to score, both inside and out, makes him a really intriguing choice. I think he could rise as we get closer to the draft.

JaVale McGee (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19227), C, Nevada
McGee came in a little bulked up. He clearly has hit the weight room. However, McGee struggled in the workouts. He looked really uncomfortable shooting the ball and looked a bit out of shape. He was breathing awfully heavy just a few minutes into the workout.

Joe Alexander (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19096), SF, West Virginia
Alexander showed off his elite athleticism. He drew a few oohs and ahhs from the crowd with his dunks. His jump shot was more of a mixed bag. He gets great elevation, but didn't shoot it as well as his workout partner, Love. Alexander also wowed people with his strength. He bench-pressed the 185-pound bar 24 times and, according to one source, is going to show a vertical jump of 40-plus inches.

Donte Greene (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19135), SF, Syracuse
Greene wasn't great in the workouts, either. He is a good athlete, but his shot wasn't falling as well as some other prospects' and he didn't do anything to stand out the way some of the others did.

The bottom line is that there isn't a lot you can learn from these workouts and they won't have much, if any, impact on their draft stock. It's just an early, brief, sneak peek of what NBA teams will see in the coming months. Players can begin team workouts Wednesday.
<hr>
The camp itself ended with a bit of a whimper. Even though the players in the camp were playing their hearts out, few NBA executives and coaches were watching.

Although the talent at the camp was pretty good, many of the top prospects really didn't perform well. That's nothing new. It's not easy to stand out among 64 prospects playing a pickup game. I went back and looked at my pre-draft camp wrap columns through the years. The players who performed well in the camp rarely go on to be great NBA players. In fact, it's some of the poor performers who have better careers.

There are exceptions. David Lee was good when he played in the camp. So was Jamal Crawford. But players such as Jordan Farmar and Paul Millsap didn't play well here, and they turned into pretty good NBA players.

So take all this with a grain of salt … but here are the guys the NBA executives and scouts were talking about as the best and worst of the 2008 NBA pre-draft camp.

The Good
Mike Taylor, G, Idaho Stampede
Taylor had two excellent performances here. His quickness and athleticism really stood out, as did his ballhandling and improved shooting ability. Taylor was kicked off the Iowa State team last year and spent this season in the D-League. He has all the physical tools to be a good NBA combo guard and played with enough poise here to generate significant second-round buzz.
Taylor had 17 points in Game 1 and 24 points in Game 2. He struggled in Game 3, but no one was watching to see it happen. His performance in the drills today, right next to Westbrook, showed what a quick, athletic guard he is.

Gary Forbes (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19258), F, UMass
Forbes was great at the Portsmouth Invitational and here in Orlando. He scored a camp-high 30 points in the second game and, for a big man, showed a unique ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the line. Forbes also has shown enough shooting ability to play on the perimeter. I think he, too, has solidified himself as a second-round pick.

Ty Lawson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19034), PG, UNC
Lawson looks like the only guy with a real shot at the first round. He had about 10 minutes of aggressive defense against Lester Hudson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19245), then shut it down. Teams were impressed, but how impressed? The word is that Lawson is leaning toward staying in the draft and that a few teams in the 20s are interested. If he makes the first-round cut, his play here was a success.

George Hill (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19291), G, IUPUI
Hill was this year's sleeper. He had a great stat line in college and showed himself to be a potential point guard in the pros. He has good size, a good shooting touch and a lot of poise. I don't think he's going to crack the first round, but I do believe he'll be drafted.

DeVon Hardin (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18960), F/C, Cal
Hardin's numbers won't wow you. But his size and athleticism are really impressive. In drills, he looks like a lottery pick. He also played hard. Some teams are wondering whether, with the right coaching, he can be an impact player in the league. He has all the physical tools, but does he have the mental ones? If another player from this camp cracks the first round, it likely will be Hardin.

Other top performers at the camp: Brian Roberts (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19296), Dayton; Malik Hairston (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18842), Oregon; Sean Singletary (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19071), Virginia; Pat Calathes (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19231), Saint Joseph's; Richard Hendrix (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18890), Alabama; Josh Duncan (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19253), Xavier; Robert Vaden (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18967), UAB; Luc Richard Mbah a Moute (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=18978&draftyear=2008), UCLA

The Bad
Davon Jefferson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18876), F, USC
No one hurt his stock more than Jefferson did. He didn't really stand out offensively, looked out of shape, and waffled between passive and out of control. That's bad news for Jefferson, who already has hired an agent. I think he went from having a shot at the first round to being potentially undrafted. His strong last-day performance didn't get seen by much of anyone, unfortunately.

John Riek (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19212), C, IMG Academy
Riek showed up to the camp but was clearly hurting. He dragged his leg through workouts and didn't end up playing in any games. He's still recovering from a broken leg and really had no business playing here. As the camp moved on and Riek hung out in the shadows, he became somewhat of a sympathetic figure. He really needs to drop out of the draft, get healthy, find a good coach and start figuring out how to be a basketball player. He has a lot of physical gifts, but he's light-years from being an NBA contributor.

Jeremy Pargo (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19203), PG, Gonzaga
Lots of scouts, me included, are intrigued by Pargo's excellent athleticism and explosiveness. But the question has always been … is he a point guard, and can he shoot the basketball? The answers after this camp aren't encouraging. He led the camp in turnovers with 14 in three games. As for that shooting? He was 2-for-7 from 3. Pargo did have a good offensive performance in the last game, but it was marred by six turnovers.

From here, players will head to team workouts, which start Wednesday. We'll update our mock draft again Monday.

Major Cold
05-31-2008, 10:58 AM
Michael Beasley, PF, Kansas State Beasley was the first player on the floor but the last to go through the workout. While other workouts were going on, we all watched in awe as Beasley drained NBA 3-pointer after NBA 3-pointer. That continued in the workouts, in which Beasley shot as well as any prospect here. Deep or midrange, Beasley can shoot the lights out.

I also caught a sneak peek of Beasley's vertical jump test. He touched the 11-foot-9 mark on his running jump. Assuming he has a standing reach of about 8-foot-10, that's a 35-inch vertical. Not off the charts, but not too shabby, either.


Thanks Will.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the vertical leap test done with one foot lead jump? If that is so then how can he accurate assess his vertical leap at 35?

I am confused.

P.S. I think we should trade up to get Westbrook.

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 11:47 AM
Thanks Will.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the vertical leap test done with one foot lead jump? If that is so then how can he accurate assess his vertical leap at 35?

I am confused.

P.S. I think we should trade up to get Westbrook.

Your welcome! I know I appreciate articles other people post so I try to reciprocate.

I would love a back court of Westbrook and B. Rush.

rexnom
05-31-2008, 12:10 PM
I think Anthem said this and I have to agree but I just don't see how we can draft Brandon Rush. The chemistry of replacing his brother like that is just...weird. Has anyone ever heard of anything like that?

Will Galen
05-31-2008, 12:35 PM
I think Anthem said this and I have to agree but I just don't see how we can draft Brandon Rush. The chemistry of replacing his brother like that is just...weird. Has anyone ever heard of anything like that?

You're looking at it wrong. We would draft Brandon and then offer Kareem a contract. Then regardless of what we offered it would be his decision.

croz24
05-31-2008, 01:22 PM
i think this just reaffirms my belief that alexander can play some pf in the league. if a guy like shawn marion is a perfect pf in our system (as many on here have stated), i'm not sure why joe can't be. joe is twice as strong as marion, probably has a slightly better vertical, and is just as long...shoot, joe is nearly as tall as beasley and just as big, but with a much higher vertical which joe utilizes in game action...

at #11, i really hope the pacers draft joe, donte, or danilo (no, i don't know or haven't seen much of him), and wouldn't hate love...

can we say joe is 24 times stronger than shawne williams? if i recall, shawne didn't even get the 185lb bar up once.

Justin Tyme
05-31-2008, 01:59 PM
if i recall, shawne didn't even get the 185lb bar up once.

I thought it was Durant, but could be mistaken.

croz24
05-31-2008, 02:08 PM
I thought it was Durant, but could be mistaken.

probably both

EDIT: you are correct about durant not being able to get it up once. shawne williams did not attempt the bench assumingly for the same reason.

jmoney2584
05-31-2008, 02:29 PM
Yea I'm getting pretty hyped on joe alexander...we better take a hard look at him if he is available

croz24
05-31-2008, 03:22 PM
here's some highlights of joe's against a solid uconn team jam packed with nba type size and athleticism. this showcases more of his jumper, as opposed to the other highlights i put on here proving joe to be the best athlete at his size in this draft.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1YkitJ5-wuQ&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1YkitJ5-wuQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

esabyrn333
05-31-2008, 04:26 PM
What is Joe's D like???

croz24
05-31-2008, 04:41 PM
What is Joe's D like???

improving...he's only been playing organized ball for 5yrs and defense is sometimes the last thing to come. he's not great at guarding on the perimeter and although joe is quick, he isn't that quick. he's actually probably better suited guarding the power forward position right now. he's a very capable shot blocker and is such a hard worker and hard nosed player that his defense should defninitely come as he matures as a player.

esabyrn333
05-31-2008, 05:27 PM
6-8 230 can he become a quality PF in the NBA? Or do you think he could become a quality SF in the NBA? I just don't know if we need another tweener here.

imawhat
05-31-2008, 06:02 PM
Joe's defensive limitations in the post would be equivalent to Ike's on offense. Where Ike is too small and gets blocked, Joe is too short to contest shots. He has to rely on his athleticism to challenge (and he is no doubt capable of getting up), which means he'll get eaten alive by anyone who has legit post skills (i.e. fakes, etc.). He'll never be effective in the post because he'll go through fouls like David Harrison.

Rajah Brown
05-31-2008, 06:43 PM
Alexander looks like Croshere with better lateral quickness and
much better hops.

Anthem
05-31-2008, 07:00 PM
Alexander looks like Croshere with better lateral quickness and
much better hops.
Then SF will definitely be his best position.

We don't need him.

Major Cold
05-31-2008, 07:32 PM
i think this just reaffirms my belief that alexander can play some pf in the league. if a guy like shawn marion is a perfect pf in our system (as many on here have stated), i'm not sure why joe can't be. joe is twice as strong as marion, probably has a slightly better vertical, and is just as long...shoot, joe is nearly as tall as beasley and just as big, but with a much higher vertical which joe utilizes in game action...

at #11, i really hope the pacers draft joe, donte, or danilo (no, i don't know or haven't seen much of him), and wouldn't hate love...

can we say joe is 24 times stronger than shawne williams? if i recall, shawne didn't even get the 185lb bar up once.


And the comparison stops there. Beasley is better outside, inside, and mid-range player. He is quicker off of the dribble.

Twice as strong as Marion? When Marion came out? Marion is elite because of his wingspan. I don't know Joe's, but if it is less that 6-8 I am done talking about him.

Beware of the players that have strong second half seasons. Corey Brewer is one that was hyped toward draft and he may be a good player. But then he may be just a defensive specialist picked in the lottery.

Joe as a PF worries me. He will not get you the rebounds. He maybe strong, but you need to be wide as well. Either that or have lanky arms and a lanky frame.

owl
05-31-2008, 07:40 PM
Alexander looks like Croshere with better lateral quickness and
much better hops.

Croshere was neither a PF or SF so he struggled. Alexander is much more mobile and has better control of his body. Croshere once he got started was going to the hoop no matter what was in the way. Alexander is a SF and if he is the best available the Pacers take him.

Also Ty Lawson had a great showing at the Orlando camp and then stopped playing. RATS says
he has a work out with the Pacers. Are the Pacers going to pick him up at 41 or
late in the first?

Anthem
05-31-2008, 08:09 PM
Alexander is a SF and if he is the best available the Pacers take him.
So he can be our fifth SF off the bench?

I'd rather trade the pick than grab another SF.

QuickRelease
05-31-2008, 08:34 PM
If Joe Alexander is at 11, and he's the best player available, I think we should take him and then trade from our strength. There are teams out there in need of a small forward, so I think we put in the call to them and go from there.

Justin Tyme
05-31-2008, 08:41 PM
So he can be our fifth SF off the bench?

I'd rather trade the pick than grab another SF.

Earlier I had a post put together on what you are saying, and deleted it by mistake. Basically, I pointed out Alexander doesn't meet the needs of what the Pacers are looking for. He's not going to be a PF, the Pacers already have a small one of those in Ike, and the Pacers are chocked full of SF. If the Pacers drafted him, who's minutes is he going to take? Shawne? Ike? Both need minutes to develop, unless the Pacers are planning on trading both plus others.

I believe Alexander is going to be a good player, but his position with the Pacers is more than covered. Now, if the Pacers are planning on getting rid of Dun, maybe.

Anthem
05-31-2008, 10:00 PM
If Joe Alexander is at 11, and he's the best player available, I think we should take him and then trade from our strength.
The #11 pick is most valuable before it's used. If we're going to "trade from our strength" we should trade the #11 pick rather than trading Joe Alexander.

Anthem
05-31-2008, 10:02 PM
I believe Alexander is going to be a good player, but his position with the Pacers is more than covered. Now, if the Pacers are planning on getting rid of Dun, maybe.
Even then. So we trade Dunleavy... then what? Do we now need another SF? If he's the best on the board, I'd rather trade down and get CDR.

And honestly, I really don't see him being the best player available at #11. I haven't counted it, but I'm sure there are more than 10 players I'd rather have with that pick.

Justin Tyme
06-01-2008, 12:40 PM
Also Ty Lawson had a great showing at the Orlando camp and then stopped playing. RATS says
he has a work out with the Pacers. Are the Pacers going to pick him up at 41 or
late in the first?


After reading this yesterday, I tried and finally succeeded in finding the Pacers on the Star board. Nowhere was there anything about Ty Lawson.

What a screwed up board with few posters, and dayz between posts. Do they possibly have more than one site, and I got one the wrong one?

owl
06-01-2008, 12:54 PM
The #11 pick is most valuable before it's used. If we're going to "trade from our strength" we should trade the #11 pick rather than trading Joe Alexander.

How about if Joe is better than Ike or Shawne and Joe is the best available you trade
Ike and Shawne?

owl
06-01-2008, 12:57 PM
After reading this yesterday, I tried and finally succeeded in finding the Pacers on the Star board. Nowhere was there anything about Ty Lawson.

What a screwed up board with few posters, and dayz between posts. Do they possibly have more than one site, and I got one the wrong one?

It was not mentioned in the discussion boards but in an article about Pacer draft picks.
I actually read in in the real paper and so it should be in the internet version.
I did not make it up.

Rajah Brown
06-01-2008, 01:12 PM
My comparsion to Croshere was nothing other then an
observation. I wasn't a Chroshere fan and I've no opinion
on Alexander. I see him as tweener/SF in the NBA which
certainly isn't a priority need for the Pacers.

PR07
06-01-2008, 01:54 PM
Alexander has a better all around game offensively than Croshere and doesn't rely as much on the 3 pt shot for his success. If Alexander is by shoulders the best player available on the board at #11, then we should take him. However, if there is a player of comparable talent that actually fills a position of need then I'd rather take them. Alexander may be able to play the 4 in stretches, but it remains to be seen whether he could play that position on a regular basis. I do like his game though.

Infinite MAN_force
06-01-2008, 03:08 PM
The whole best pick available thing has to come with some limitations. I like Joe Alexander, but he makes zero sense for our team. The idea that you are going to trade your extra small forward is flawed because it is the most easily filled position in the leauge. We already have a gluttony of small forwards, at least one of which will need traded after next year. Hopefully shawne steps up his game like danny did this year, than he can be traded.

yeah if there is like a lebron james level superstar of course you take him, but thats different. Joe Alexander is not signifigantly more talented than anyone else in that 10-20 range. You don't soley pick on need but you also prioritize certain positions, PGs and Bigs are obviously the big need, you also might take an SG if they look like they might be real special (mayo or gordon), but I don't see a small forward in this draft that looks better than Danny Granger (maybe the italian dude, but we need to avoid players with defensive problems), there are certainly no "sure things".

On another note, if Brook Lopez fell to 11, that would be great news. I don't think he will be a superstar, but he will be a very solid productive center both offensivly and defensively. He can play in the post, face up, block shots, and he is a big presence in the paint. He could fill our center position for years to come.

owl
06-01-2008, 03:25 PM
With Alexander is comes down to whether or not he is significantly better than other players
in the range. That is where the talent evaluators better do their job. In Alexander I see a very
physically talented and driven player. I KNOW we don't have too many of those.
So I would not blow him off because the Pacers already have some "similar" type
players. The Pacers are sorely lacking in talent and can't be near-sighted. This team
is some time away from contending so don't reach for a position.
I could see a big at 11 and Ty Lawson later in the first via a deal. It really depends on
so many other factors.

Young
06-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Question regarding trading the pick. What do you guys think about Leandaro Barbosa?

I like Barbosa better than any of our other opitions and I think he could be avaliable but not for sure.

He has a resonable contract and his salary could be matched fairly easily. Would the Suns accept Jeff Foster, the 11th pick, plus ? for Barbosa?

I think that Barbosa, Mike, and Danny would be a decent 1-2-3 scoring combination. I say if Flip can play point guard for Jim than surely Barbosa can.

I think the Knicks will probably be after Barbosa too. They probably can put together a more attractive deal for Phoenix.

Who are some other players we could move the pick for? I have been trying to think of the possible opitions because I can see us doing that if the right deal is there of course.

Some recent examples of trading picks for players include the Grizzles trading Shane Battier for the draft rights to Rudy Gay and last year the Bobcats trading the draft rights to Brandin Wright for Jason Richardson. The Pacers pick is a little lower than what RG and Wright were picked at.

Will Galen
06-01-2008, 06:32 PM
I think this draft more than any other is going to be the one with the most surprises in it. Why?

Of the fifteen players the NBA invited to just have measurements done at the pre-draft camp, 9 of them were freshmen, 5 were sophomores, and one was a junior. So most all of these guys have a lot of . . . growing to do, in lots of ways.

And there looks like there could be some potential stars taken even in the second round.

The thing is no one can predict with any certainly who will be a star and who won't. A guy can have all the athletic ability in the world but lack drive or just doesn't have it between the ears.

Hmmm . . . I had to use the restroom and now I can't remember what else I intended to say . . . getting old sucks . . . however it's beats whats in second place all to heck! (grin)

Since86
06-02-2008, 01:27 PM
Just because you bench a weight 24times more than someone else, doesn't mean you're 24 times stronger.

The bench is an awful, let me repeat that AWFUL, measure of one's strength, let alone overall strength.

Any weight lifter will tell you that. When we do assessment tests on strength, a bench press isn't one of them, I call tell you that right from a health professional standpoint.

There is no one test to give strength.

The reason as to why benching is one of the worst for athletics, is because of the movement. When you strength train for specific sports/events, you want to choose lifts/exercises that mimic actions you use in those areas. Benching helps linemen in football, but squatting is the best, and that's about it.

In my resistance training classes, we're told to stay away from benching, along with some others, as much as possible when performance training athletes. It can be thrown in to mix things up to get their body to respond, but it's not a good lift at all.

millertime90
06-02-2008, 03:00 PM
Yes, the bench press is a bad indicator of strength. I usually only do light reps on the bench about twice per month. As for Joe Alexander, you can tell just by looking at him he is one strong dude.

owl
06-02-2008, 03:02 PM
Since86, what strength training would you recommend for a HS girl for sprinting purposes?
She has been doing pushup, bicep curl, and some bench and some running in the offseason.
Leg strength is good but she needs upper body strength. Runs the 200 and 400.

Since86
06-02-2008, 03:20 PM
I would still focus on the legs. Calf raises, leg curls/extensions, and squats/lunges.

Mix it up with it, power and endurance sets on different days. With power you want one to three reps with high weight, about 80% of her max. She needs to explode through the lift. On endurance days, she needs to really back off the weight and do anywhere from 12 to 20 reps, really make the muscles adapt to fast continuous activity.

Those were the two races that I ran BTW.

The biggest thing she can do is really work on mechanics. Getting her body in line, not running with her elbows flared out or having a lot of shoulder movement.

owl
06-03-2008, 11:41 AM
I would still focus on the legs. Calf raises, leg curls/extensions, and squats/lunges.

Mix it up with it, power and endurance sets on different days. With power you want one to three reps with high weight, about 80% of her max. She needs to explode through the lift. On endurance days, she needs to really back off the weight and do anywhere from 12 to 20 reps, really make the muscles adapt to fast continuous activity.

Those were the two races that I ran BTW.

The biggest thing she can do is really work on mechanics. Getting her body in line, not running with her elbows flared out or having a lot of shoulder movement.


Are you then mainly advising this weight lifting for the legs mainly or some upper body also?
I agree the legs need to be a focus it is just that with many women the upper body lags behind in developement plus upper body strength. Core strength is important also.
Her form is pretty good. I was wanting to develope more arm drive.
She broke into the 26's as a freshmen and I hope she can drop it to the low 26 next year
or high 25's. That is what is will take to get out of the sectional and on to the regional, etc.... If she did that she could get to state. It is a difficult sectional. It has the Farley
sisters in it plus others.
I ran the 440 and the 880 back in the day.
Thanks for the advice.

owl
06-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Oh and by the way Love measured out at 6'8.25" as reported at nabdraft.net.

owl
06-03-2008, 12:06 PM
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Partial-Measurements-and-Combine-Results-Released-2911/

croz24
06-03-2008, 12:27 PM
Oh and by the way Love measured out at 6'8.25" as reported at nabdraft.net.

looks like my 6'8 1/2" was a little too generous...6'7 3/4" is pretty bad for a supposed "big". these measureables are pretty bad of his and i'm not sure how he doesn't slide because of this...

rexnom
06-03-2008, 12:33 PM
Love is 6'10" in shoes, he'll be fine. God I hope he slides.

owl
06-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Hope he slides right to the Pacers.

Since86
06-03-2008, 01:55 PM
Arms as well, just not a real big emphasis on it.

I won sectional as a soph, then that summer I added 15lbs on top part of my frame for basketball. The year I won, I dropped a huge amount of time, over 3 secs, so while I didn't expect the same results I expected I would have improved.

I ran times right around my winning time for the rest of my career, but it never dropped below that PR set when I won.

The biggest reason was it changed my running style.

Unfortunately I didn't run sectional my sr. year due to a baseball conflict. (we can play two sports a season as long as we have a major and a minor. baseball was my major and the game we played decided conference) I was seeded #1 in the 200, and should have won pretty handedly. My track coach still gives me crap about it.

Making improvements in her 200 will help the 400 quite a lot. I wasn't the strongest runner for cardio in the 400, I could just out sprint them from the 200-150 mark down the stretch.

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 02:54 PM
DJ Augusin's results are w/o shoes 5 10 w/ shoes 5 11.5. His wingspan is 6 3.5. Does this help him or hurt him? What is important the 5' 10" or the 5"11.5"

I am no expert but what can we sum up by his results.

croz24
06-03-2008, 02:56 PM
augustin always had trouble against nba type athletes while in college. i really don't see this changing in the nba.

d_c
06-03-2008, 02:58 PM
What is important the 5' 10" or the 5"11.5"


I just go by the height w/o shoes so then there's no question about how thick a guy's shoe are.

Plus, that's how a lot of guys in Europe are measured: without shoes.

For instance, Mickael Pietrus and Jason Richardson are both listed at 6'6", but it was clear when both guys stood next to each other on court that Pietrus was easily taller. Maybe that's because JRich was actually 6'4" 3/4 without his shoes while Pietrus really was 6'6".

But just using my own pair of eyes when watching Augustin, it was pretty obvious this guy wasn't 6' tall, lol.

count55
06-03-2008, 03:00 PM
DJ Augusin's results are w/o shoes 5 10 w/ shoes 5 11.5. His wingspan is 6 3.5. Does this help him or hurt him? What is important the 5' 10" or the 5"11.5"

I am no expert but what can we sum up by his results.


He's small...

as to which is more important, shoes or no, I don't think it particularly matters. It's been a long while since I've seen anybody trot out on the court without shoes, so...

d_c
06-03-2008, 03:03 PM
He's small...

as to which is more important, shoes or no, I don't think it particularly matters. It's been a long while since I've seen anybody trot out on the court without shoes, so...

I agree with that.

But my problem with this whole "measurement" thing is that a lot of guys' "listed" heights are with shoes and a lot of guys' aren't.

Shane Battier is listed at 6'8". He measured out 6'8.25" WITHOUT his shoes on. Contrast this with a lot of guys who are "listed" at 6'9" but in reality measure out at about 6'7.5" without shoes.

So who's taller? Battier or these guys who list themselves at 6'9" but in reality are under 6'8"?

That's why I like too look at height w/o shoes as the baseline. Then there's no question about the real height.

blanket
06-03-2008, 03:04 PM
DJ Augusin's results are w/o shoes 5 10 w/ shoes 5 11.5. His wingspan is 6 3.5. Does this help him or hurt him? What is important the 5' 10" or the 5"11.5"

I am no expert but what can we sum up by his results.

his true height should surprise no one. his body fat % was a bit surprising, though.

I just think you could get the same out of Ty Lawson as you'd get from DJ Augustin, but at 10-15 spots cheaper.

Speed
06-03-2008, 08:49 PM
First group in to work out includes Augustin, btw Burrell is my pick for 41, he's a lock down defender, big time.

http://my.nba.com/forum.jspa?forumID=300017878

Texas point guard D. J. Augustin, the consensus mock draft projection for the Pacers at the No. 11 pick, will be in the first group of prospects to work out for the club's scouts and coaches Wednesday morning in Conseco Fieldhouse. Joining Augustin are guards Ty Lawson (North Carolina), Stanley Burrell (Xavier) and Jamar Butler (Ohio State) and big men Sausha Kaun (Kansas) and Aleks Maric (Nebraska).

Augustin measured 5-10 at the NBA Pre-Draft Camp in Orlando but is unfazed about the concern of some scouts about his size.

"My size is what it is. I’m not going to grow," he said. "It’s never been a problem for me on any level. Chris Paul is a good example of a smaller guy doing great things in the NBA. Hopefully I can go on and do the same."

For the first time, the Pacers will make their visiting prospects available to the media after the workouts so look for updates on Pacers.com. The second workout session is scheduled for Thursday.

esabyrn333
06-03-2008, 09:09 PM
[quote=Speed;730101]First group in to work out includes Augustin, btw Burrell is my pick for 41, he's a lock down defender, big time.

http://my.nba.com/forum.jspa?forumID=300017878

Texas point guard D. J. Augustin, the consensus mock draft projection for the Pacers at the No. 11 pick, will be in the first group of prospects to work out for the club's scouts and coaches Wednesday morning in Conseco Fieldhouse. Joining Augustin are guards Ty Lawson (North Carolina), Stanley Burrell (Xavier) and Jamar Butler (Ohio State) and big men Sausha Kaun (Kansas) and Aleks Maric (Nebraska).

Augustin measured 5-10 at the NBA Pre-Draft Camp in Orlando but is unfazed about the concern of some scouts about his size.


I just get a feeling that DJ is going to suprise alot of people in the NBA. Everything I read about him and reading his interviews the guy just seems to be a class act and a LEADER that could lead this team for years. I just think the guy has the IT factor.

Major Cold
06-03-2008, 10:02 PM
Eric Gordon's wingspan is 6 inches better than Bayless and almost 2 inches better than Westbrook. Bayless has the same wingspan as Augustin.

I like Gordon more because of these measurements and workouts. He is up there athletically with Rose, Bayless, and better than Westbrook. He even did better than Wade did in everything except height.
BTW Beasley tore it up for his stature.

Young
06-03-2008, 10:52 PM
Question regarding DJ Augistin.

Can he start for an NBA championship team?

I think that DJ will be a good player. But will he be good enough?

My concern with him his defense. Here is why.

In the NBA now there seem to be more and more great point guards and it looks like Derrick Rose can be added to that list soon. It's a perminter game now where point guards rule. We see less and less back to the basket big man now a days.

With point guards playing such a big role in the success or failure of their team can DJ be good enough on defense? I'm talking about in a 7 game series guarding guys like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, etc. That is my question regarding DJ.

There is no doubt that whoever drafts DJ must have the support system around. Being on a good defensive team improves your own defense right away.

This is my big time concern with DJ. Really my only concern. It's a tough question to answer right now.

OakMoses
06-04-2008, 10:41 AM
"My size is what it is. I知 not going to grow," he said. "It痴 never been a problem for me on any level. Chris Paul is a good example of a smaller guy doing great things in the NBA. Hopefully I can go on and do the same."


If you look at the measurements, Chris Paul is nearly 2" taller w/o shoes. He was only 6 pounds heavier, yet benched 185 8 more times than Augustin. I know bench press doesn't mean anything about how good of a basketball player you are, but that's a very significant difference in upper body strength.

I think DJ is a great kid and will play for years in the NBA. But to me he looks like a version of Tony Parker who can't finish.

croz24
06-05-2008, 12:03 AM
Question regarding DJ Augistin.

Can he start for an NBA championship team?

sure...even jamison brewer could win a championship alongside the likes of kobe, odom, gasol, and bynum...

d_c
06-05-2008, 12:10 AM
sure...even jamison brewer could win a championship alongside the likes of kobe, odom, gasol, and bynum...

Yep. I mean, two years ago, what if someone asked you "Is Doc Rivers the type of coach you can win a championship with?"

The answer might just be yes, and it won't be because Doc is some kind of brilliant coach.

Naptown_Seth
06-06-2008, 12:08 PM
his true height should surprise no one. his body fat % was a bit surprising, though.

I just think you could get the same out of Ty Lawson as you'd get from DJ Augustin, but at 10-15 spots cheaper.
Aside from the DUI what I don't like about Lawson is that when I watched him he was something of a flat dribbler, way more comfortable going up the court than moving laterally with the ball. DJ is just too small to play his game at the NBA level IMO, but were he the size of Bayless I think he'd be just fine.

Lawson is a good athlete but without great basketball skills. IMO of course.

Jonathan
06-06-2008, 04:05 PM
Aside from the DUI what I don't like about Lawson is that when I watched him he was something of a flat dribbler, way more comfortable going up the court than moving laterally with the ball. DJ is just too small to play his game at the NBA level IMO, but were he the size of Bayless I think he'd be just fine.

Lawson is a good athlete but without great basketball skills. IMO of course.

If Chalmers drops to the second round should we move up?

Do we trade Jeff Foster to Houston for their pick #25 and draft a PG?

croz24
06-07-2008, 12:04 AM
If Chalmers drops to the second round should we move up?

Do we trade Jeff Foster to Houston for their pick #25 and draft a PG?

i'd MUCH rather draft a pg at #25 than at #11. drafting augustin or westbrook at #11 i feel, as i've been saying, is a huge mistake.

CableKC
06-07-2008, 12:22 AM
If Chalmers drops to the second round should we move up?

Do we trade Jeff Foster to Houston for their pick #25 and draft a PG?
Did Chalmers declare yet?

If anything.....if Lawson is out or even has any charecter issues brought up due to this incident.....it would only bolster Chalmers stock.

Regardless....I would much rather have Chalmers then Lawson simply cuz of his defense.

Rajah Brown
06-07-2008, 07:18 AM
Rommie-

Unless he's surrounded by the kind of crew croz24 kiddingly alluded
to, the answer is no, he can't. I like the kid and I like his game.
While his small stature would hinder him, he could get by with it
more often than not in the 'regular season'.

But in the playoffs, when it becomes a half-court game and every
weakness or disadvanatge gets exploited by an opponent, his size
would become a big problem.

Will Galen
06-07-2008, 08:14 AM
Did Chalmers declare yet?

If anything.....if Lawson is out or even has any charecter issues brought up due to this incident.....it would only bolster Chalmers stock.

Regardless....I would much rather have Chalmers then Lawson simply cuz of his defense.

Mario Chalmers, who had his first of five workouts for NBA teams on Friday in Phoenix, told Suns beat writers he値l likely keep his name in the 2008 NBA Draft. 的知 leaning toward staying in. I致e been hearing a lot of good things, so I値l probably stay in, said the 6-foot-1 Chalmers, who just completed his junior year at Kansas University (javascript:newwind('http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/jun/07/chalmers_likely_staying_draft/?mens_basketball','231')). Lawrence Journal-World (javascript:newwind('http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/jun/07/chalmers_likely_staying_draft/?mens_basketball','231'))
Chalmers was interviewed in official Suns practice garb Friday. He said he enjoyed the NBA workout.


的 think I made a pretty good impression. I had a couple turnovers, but other than that I think I did pretty well, said Chalmers, who likely will play point guard in the NBA. 的t lived up to all my expectations ... It痴 a great opportunity for young guys like myself and D.J. (Augustin), Drew (Neitzel) and Rod (Beaubois) to come in here today and work out, and try to get to the next level. (javascript:newwind('http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/jun/07/chalmers_likely_staying_draft/?mens_basketball','124')) Lawrence Journal-World (javascript:newwind('http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/jun/07/chalmers_likely_staying_draft/?mens_basketball','124'))

Jonathan
06-07-2008, 08:52 AM
i'd MUCH rather draft a pg at #25 than at #11. drafting augustin or westbrook at #11 i feel, as i've been saying, is a huge mistake.

Would you be upset if we drafted D Jordan or are you on a reach at #11 ie Speights.

Major Cold
06-07-2008, 09:50 AM
I would like to have us not draft either. Neither are showing they have the drive to help their draft stock. Why must talent dripping players have the worse drive?

Jonathan
06-07-2008, 09:59 AM
I would like to have us not draft either. Neither are showing they have the drive to help their draft stock. Why must talent dripping players have the worse drive?

I think Bird is high on D Jordan if available. I am not 100% sold on D Augustine. I think the Clippers might draft him.

CableKC
06-07-2008, 10:14 AM
I think Bird is high on D Jordan if available. I am not 100% sold on D Augustine. I think the Clippers might draft him.
What makes you think that DeAndre Jordan is high on Bird's list?

I'm guessing that he will be available. I'm guessing that there are 9 likely candidates that will be chosen ahead of us ( not in any particular draft order ):

Rose
Beasley
Mayo
Bayless
Love
B Lopez
Gordon
Gallinari
Randolph

After that likely 9, I can see anyone being chosen.

Hicks
06-07-2008, 10:24 AM
I also don't know what suggests Bird would be high on DeAndre Jordan.

croz24
06-08-2008, 03:49 AM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-CRtna5iDFc&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-CRtna5iDFc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Hicks
06-08-2008, 11:08 AM
Doesn't seem to play very big. Like a 3/4 tweener.

imawhat
06-08-2008, 01:53 PM
Also, he has a horrid, horrid FG% for his position. And that's against college-level competition. And he apparently has confidence issues. In any situation, he won't be the best available at #11

croz24
06-08-2008, 01:57 PM
Also, he has a horrid, horrid FG% for his position. And that's against college-level competition. And he apparently has confidence issues. In any situation, he won't be the best available at #11

lucky for us then he won't even be available at #11...westbrook and augustin FTW!!! :rolleyes:

PR07
06-08-2008, 02:00 PM
Big men take a long time to develop. He reminds me of a young Chris Bosh. If he's there, we absolutely have to take him (depending on if no one else falls)

Kraft
06-08-2008, 02:37 PM
I'd say they'd have to take a talent like Randolph if available. Go for the home run, not the bunt single.

He's obviously still learning to use his frame, which should get bigger anyway. Randolph doesn't seem to be scared to mix it up, either. That could change against NBA-sized players, but that's a risk I think you take.

Infinite MAN_force
06-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Something about Randolph just rubs me the wrong way, I just have this feeling he will be a massive bust. I hope he is gone by 11.

I keep hearing that Speights doesn't have the drive, but can anyone back that up? He has advanced shooting mechanics and solid post moves, and was a productive player. Unlike Deandre Jordan who is all size and has like no basketball skills whatsoever.

Naptown_Seth
06-08-2008, 09:22 PM
On Randolph, agree with Hicks and Imawhat. The problem with him as a Pacers is similar to Donte Green. We just can't use another SF/PF. Yes, Randolph has much better handles and passing than Danny, but where's the true post game or even the true face up game?

Plus this could be a Maceo Baston highlight reel.

I'd much rather take Arthur at 11 if I need a big, simply because I know I can use his post offense right away and it's not like his upside is drastically less.

Springy tweeners aren't exactly uncommon in NBA drafts you know. Guys just like this have come and gone for decades now. Not unlike high PCT spot up set shooters ala Reddick.


Deandre Jordan who is all size and has like no basketball skills whatsoever.
Yep. Now the one thing in all this is SOMETIMES (but usually not) a kid will go out like Brad Miller, questioned for good reason about his passion for the game but then turns it on and becomes a solid or even great player.

The problem with chasing that is most of the time the knock on the player was legit or the slip in the draft doesn't kick them into gear. See: James White.



Foster to get the 25? I like the idea but I think Foster is worth a bit more than that. I guess if Houston can touch that up a bit then I like it.

To get Chalmers still on the board at 25 if they drafted a SG or big with the first pick (including Westbrook as a "SG")? Definitely a really good reason.

I realize Chalmers is a bunt, but honestly I think he could be Vern Fleming caliber and that would be a nice grab at 25.



What sucks is that about 10 of these kids might really make an impact. That means another batch of disappointments is on the way and none of us know which is which, not completely and for certain that is.

croz24
06-08-2008, 09:37 PM
so darrell arthur and his 6'8" frame is more of a power forward to you than joe alexander or anthony randolph? anthony randolph is a top 5-6 talent in this draft...

owl
06-09-2008, 08:56 AM
http://www.draftexpress.com/

Some interesting comments on Ibaka and others in Europe.

Naptown_Seth
06-09-2008, 11:19 PM
Arthur has the footwork of a seasoned pro. He plays offense like JO's first year in Indy. He can turn to his off shoulder for a soft fade jump, he spins with incredible quickness and control in both directions going right into a shot and he runs quick, strong moves right into his post position. Put him in the 3/4 PnR spot at the arc and he's got 2 perfect steps to the wing ready to catch and drive or shoot if necessary.

Almost nothing Arthur does is built on pure athleticism. In fact explictily because of the Chalmers discussion I put on the NC/KS semi-final game tonight. I'd forgotten just how incredible he was in that game. Every move I just mentioned he showed off within the first 7-8 minutes of that game.

As for size, he had no problem with height against anyone NC had on the court, and this included him blocking one shot down into the floor that started a fast break for layup at the other end.

I'm actually slipping into the Arthur over Love camp now in fact.

imawhat
06-10-2008, 12:51 AM
I'm actually slipping into the Arthur over Love camp now in fact.

Seriously? I'm sky high on Love, but only paid attention to Rush on Kansas.



So, I got an e-mail on a trailer for an upcoming movie that involves a few of this years upcoming draft picks. I think the name of the movie is "Gunnin' For That #1 Spot". I think it's playground-based, but if I'm not mistaken both Kevin Love and Beasley (and others, maybe even Bayless) end up in the movie. Link with trailer below.

http://www.gunninmovie.com/index.php/

croz24
06-10-2008, 01:16 AM
well, i'm not high on westbrook, augustin, love, or arthur...doubt i could ever been in the "arthur camp" with how he spurned iu. while there is nobody in this draft with the established post moves of arthur, i'm not sure how that makes him a better talent or better overall player than a randolph, especially considering his height. low post players may be nice, but they haven't been the key cog to many of the recent title contenders.

Doddage
06-10-2008, 08:12 AM
Duncan, Shaq, Sheed, Hakeem, etc.

Hell, you can even include Jordan and Kobe in that mix since both were adept at playing in the post as well. The bottom line is a title team almost ALWAYS requires such a player due to the versatility that the post position brings. I'd say that the above players have been pretty "key cogs."

croz24
06-10-2008, 12:25 PM
as i stated "recent title contenders"...did not say title winning teams.

Naptown_Seth
06-10-2008, 12:33 PM
Seriously? I'm sky high on Love, but only paid attention to Rush on Kansas.



So, I got an e-mail on a trailer for an upcoming movie that involves a few of this years upcoming draft picks. I think the name of the movie is "Gunnin' For That #1 Spot". I think it's playground-based, but if I'm not mistaken both Kevin Love and Beasley (and others, maybe even Bayless) end up in the movie. Link with trailer below.

http://www.gunninmovie.com/index.php/
I mentioned this a few pages back actually. It's done by MCA (Adam Yauch) of the Beastie Boys. At one point Kevin Love gets heckled for going up soft (aka fundamental layup) and in response he starts throwing them down hard and the crowd loves it.

It has Beas, Love, Bayless and 5 other prospects. It's Rucker Park and has gotten really good buzz. Unfortunately Indy people probably can't see it till after the draft as it's an "art film" since it's a small time documentary. :mad: You're in LA unless I missed the change so you might even be able to find it right now someplace around town.


Look, I'm by far the most on Love's jock around this place (making many posters sick from it :) ). So I don't say that Arthur impresses me more lightly. I've had a change of heart, slightly. Of course I think Love is off the board by 11 anyway, while Arthur will be out there to take.

Over the season DA wasn't stepping up, it was Rush and Chalmers running the show. But when he did touch it he showed great polish so he did hit my radar. However because of his early non-impression I thought of him more of a background guy even when he had those good tourney games.

Now with time to reflect and review he stands out more to me because I'm seeing some of his top games instead of the early season stuff. I like all the KS kids because they play a very smart yet not overly collegiate game. They worked the type of spacing and position fundamentals that apply to the NBA. Chalmers and Rush would fluidly exchange on switches, talk to each other and make sure everything was covered. They didn't just run the system, they understood it. This applied to most of the other kids too, including Arthur.

But Arthur also has the offensive post footwork to go with that. He gets what the spacing goal of a solid PnR is, he wouldn't just plod into trouble because it was where he was supposed to go, he'd read it and space accordingly. He knows why he's using a move to get post position or why he needs to go someplace different out of a PnR.

DA is the kid that will hit the post quickly (I mean REALLY quickly) before a guy like Harrison can react, then show him the baseline fake sending Hulk flying and leaving him open for the quick turn to the lane. And even when JO comes to help he just switches to the step back fade off the spin and puts it up soft, at the very least putting a rebound in play with two defenders committed out of position.

You don't need to be the best athlete to do that, you just need to understand those options and when to apply them.


Now Love is the same way with somewhat different game. Love is incredibly disciplined on his floor position, won't chase ANYTHING (almost to fault) and always understands how to make the most of a situation (thus the outlet passing). Neither apparently impress people with their athletics (though neither are duds to me), but both play smart basketball and that's my key.

Keep in mind that often NCAA players, while sound and working the team system, are nearly robotic and not really playing as smart as the slower and more controlled system would imply. Those "NCAA stars" hit the next level where more personal awareness is expected and they flounder. At least IMO.


Now this is the first year I've really kept close tabs on so many players so I'm probably in for a trial by fire of humility on what I think I see. So be it. But then again I'm getting paid jack squat for my scouting abilities too. ;)

Shade
06-10-2008, 12:41 PM
I still think the Pacers will take Jordan at #11. Just a gut feeling. While we're all looking at guards, I think the P's will be looking at bigs.

eldubious
06-10-2008, 01:03 PM
I believe the Pacers should go big with the 11th pick, Love, Jordan, and Arthur would be nice additions. Love would more than likely be gone, leaving the Pacers to chose between Jordan and Arthur. I think it would be tough for the Pacers to pass over Jordan just because he is raw and has "big potential." He could be the next Bynum or he could be the next Kwame. Arthur would be the safe pick. He could very well be another Boozer or Horford. The Pacers could very well pick up another 1st round pick and select a PG.

owl
06-10-2008, 02:27 PM
Comments on Love and Dorsey

An NCAA Final Four rematch ensued Monday in FedExForum as the Grizzlies continued their draft workouts.

For Love and Dorsey: Mission accomplished.

Love, projected to be selected in the upper half of the draft lottery, emerged as the top participant, while Dorsey more than held his own in producing the second-best workout among four big men.

The six-player session also included centers DeAndre Jordan (Texas A&M) and JaVale McGee (Nevada), and guards Kyle Weaver (Washington State) and Jeremy Pargo (Gonzaga).

The focus, though, was on the big men, and Love asserted himself as an above-average passer, perimeter shooter, post scorer and athlete who has enough lateral quickness to avoid being a defensive liability.

滴e痴 gotten himself into great shape since the (Final Four) loss to the Tigers, Grizzlies general manager Chris Wallace said. 滴e痴 working out well. He got good measurements at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp. His athleticism is better than expected. He痴 going to do fine in the NBA and go in the upper half of the lottery.

Love immediately shed 15 pounds after the NCAA tournament, and the training proved worthwhile during impressive full-court, three-on-three and one-on-one exercises.

的 wanted to get quicker, Love said, 澱ecause I知 going to have to play (power forward) in the NBA. I値l be able to guard (centers) because of my size, but I have to be able to step out on the perimeter and use my quickness. I wanted to show I had the lateral quickness.

Love displayed excellent shooting from mid-range and ended the workout by burying seven of 10 from beyond the NBA 3-point arc.

Whereas some lottery players rejected the notion of working against so-called lower prospects, Love embraced the idea to prove his stock.

的知 a competitive guy. It doesn稚 matter who I go against, Love said. 敵oing one against none isn稚 my style. I like to bang. I wanted to play against length. JaVale and DeAndre are pretty big guys, and I scored against them a bunch of times. I知 going to have to play against guys that size at the next level, and that痴 just something I had to show.

While McGee was active and determined, Jordan had the most difficult workout among the big men. He underwhelmed greatly in endurance, defense and low-post scoring. Jordan missed a dunk and shot an air ball free throw.

The best matchups involved Love and/or Dorsey.

Love痴 finest moments came against each of his bigger opponents, as he proving to be virtually impossible to guard in the post. During a one-minute drill in which players had to sprint baseline to baseline while stopping and shooting from the elbow, Love connected on five straight shots. The Grizzlies staff required seven made shots during that span, and Love converted nine.

Dorsey only sank three baskets during that drill. But, with University of Memphis men痴 basketball coach John Calipari watching, Dorsey impressed with his defense and sometimes stunning shot-making in competitive situations.

Dorsey痴 fine moments happened when he dunked over a Love block attempt in a three-on-two, full-court exercise, caught a pass in the post and whirled to the basket for a score over Love, and routinely outsmarted Jordan on both ends of the court.

的 want to show everybody I can play with the top guys offensively and on defense, as well, Dorsey said. 的致e put in a lot of work in the gym. I just want to play in the NBA.

Dorsey and Love were the only big men not visibly tired during the slightly more than an hour session.

笛oey can play in the NBA, Wallace said. 滴e can be a rebounder, defender and energy guy. I think the draft is going to treat Joey much better than people would have thought at the beginning of the season.

Love seconded that prediction.

滴e痴 hungry, Love said of Dorsey. 滴e痴 a banger. I thought he had a great workout. He hit a bunch of shots and had a pretty nice touch. He actually showed a jump shot. He値l definitely make a team. He痴 big enough and solid.

Dorsey said he痴 worked with NBA players Rudy Gay and Carmelo Anthony in an attempt to make certain he痴 seen in a different light.

的知 getting word that, 遷oey, you might be drafted in the first round because of your defense. I知 like, 糎ait until they see my offense,樗 Dorsey said. 展ith that, I think I can move up.

Will Galen
06-10-2008, 03:05 PM
I read part of this earlier and thought Dorsey was moving up. I think he will be a rotation player for sure.

blanket
06-10-2008, 03:15 PM
While McGee was active and determined, Jordan had the most difficult workout among the big men. He underwhelmed greatly in endurance, defense and low-post scoring. Jordan missed a dunk and shot an air ball free throw.


please don't let Bird draft Jordan :pray:

count55
06-10-2008, 04:01 PM
please don't let Bird draft Jordan :pray:


The thought of the Pacers drafting Jordan makes me want to scoop my eyeballs out with a spoon.

eldubious
06-10-2008, 04:32 PM
After watching highlights of McGee, I noticed he is pretty agile and smooth for a 7 footer, similar to Marcus Camby. I don't know why he didn't dominate for a player his size and playing in a mid-conference. But, he has a very competeive spirit which will do him well in the NBA. I wouldn't mind the Pacers using a second 1st round pick on him. I doubt the Pacers would take Jordan after reading about his lack of stamina, energy, and fundamentals. Especially, after dealing with Harrison, I don't think Jordan is on the radar.

Shade
06-10-2008, 05:17 PM
I believe the Pacers should go big with the 11th pick, Love, Jordan, and Arthur would be nice additions. Love would more than likely be gone, leaving the Pacers to chose between Jordan and Arthur. I think it would be tough for the Pacers to pass over Jordan just because he is raw and has "big potential." He could be the next Bynum or he could be the next Kwame. Arthur would be the safe pick. He could very well be another Boozer or Horford. The Pacers could very well pick up another 1st round pick and select a PG.

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/04/08/amd_mariochalmers.jpg

MyFavMartin
06-11-2008, 11:27 AM
anybody here think joe alexander is the next david lee?

jmoney2584
06-11-2008, 12:55 PM
I think he will be better than David Lee, bet on that.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 01:05 PM
I think he will be better than David Lee, bet on that.

Could be. Here's Ford's latest article on the draft.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftNotes-080610
Draft Watch: Alexander's hot, Lawson's not

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/columnists/Ford_Chad_55.jpg (http://x.go.com/cgi/x.pl?goto=http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=chad_ford&name=SEARCH_m_archive&srvc=sz) By Chad Ford
ESPN.com
Updated: June 10, 2008<!-- end page tools --><!-- begin story body --><!-- template inline -->

Who has played well and who has struggled one week into team workouts? Getting reliable info isn't easy. NBA agents often pick up the phone and call immediately following workouts, saying something to the effect of, "My client kicked someone else's client's butt in the workouts."

NBA GMs and scouts aren't much better at this point. They tend to say they like everyone -- partly out of fear of offending the prospect's agent and partly because they don't want to show their hand this close to the draft.

The other source of information is the players themselves. While they usually tend to overstate how well they personally played in a workout, they can be pretty accurate about how the other players in the gym performed.

So while the information that follows shouldn't be taken as 100% fact, I've tried my best to filter out the garbage and get the best possible read on the situation.

Here's what we're hearing:

The Hot List

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2008/headshots/19096.jpg
<center>Alexander</center>Joe Alexander (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19096), F, West Virginia
Alexander had workouts in Milwaukee and New York, and both went well. His toughness and shooting ability have made quite an impression.
I originally thought Alexander would struggle to crack the top 10 because of his lack of big-time experience, but now I can see how Alexander would appeal to coaches who like toughness (Scott Skiles) and coaches who like athletes who can get up and down the floor (Mike D'Antoni).
We've had Alexander at No. 13 for a while, but it's entirely possible that he finds his way into the middle of the lottery.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2008/headshots/19215.jpg
<center>Hickson</center>J.J. Hickson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19215), F, NC State
It shouldn't come as a huge shock that Hickson has wowed a few people in early workouts -- he's a very skilled big man who has an NBA body. Plus, he had an excellent freshman season.
"He's just incredibly strong for his age," Suns GM David Griffin said of Hickson after he worked out for the Suns. "He has a naturally thick body. He can bang on the perimeter, and he's also got a pretty quick face-up game."
We've had Hickson pegged in the 20s for the past several months, but I'm starting to hear more buzz that he could move into the teens if he continues to have strong workouts.
Hickson has worked out for the Suns, Sixers, Sonics and Blazers so far.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2008/headshots/18916.jpg
<center>White</center>D.J. White (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18916), F, Indiana
It was surprising that White skipped the Orlando predraft camp, but it appears that move isn't hurting him. He has worked out for the Nets, Magic and Wizards and has more than held his own against some of the more heralded big men prospects in the draft -- Darrell Arthur (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19062) and Marreese Speights (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19161).
He measures well at 6-foot-9 in shoes with a 7-foot-2 wingspan, and he's tested very well in some of the athletic drills. And while talk of a four-year senior being hot is odd these days, remember that White is still just 21 years old -- only a few months older than O.J. Mayo (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19129).

<hr>
The Not List

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2008/headshots/19034.jpg
<center>Lawson</center>Ty Lawson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19034), PG, North Carolina
Lawson had a couple of very good workouts in Cleveland and Indiana. And he had an impressive Orlando predraft camp. But then he got busted for driving after consuming alcohol (he's underage). At a time of year when teams are super sensitive to character issues, this won't help his cause.
How can a team like the Pacers (who had him in to workout against D.J. Augustin (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19083)) take him now after all of the legal nightmares the team has endured recently with its players?
On top of that, Lawson twisted an ankle in a workout with the Wizards on Monday.

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0320/nba_a_mcghee_65.jpg
<center>McGee</center>JaVale McGee (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19227), F, Nevada
McGee is long and athletic. But it's not a good thing when the best praise he gets from those who have seen him work out is, "You can't teach height." That's usually code for: "He stinks, but he's big." McGee got a lot of buzz this year after an excellent performance against North Carolina. And his basketball pedigree -- his mom played in the WNBA -- and perimeter skills helped justify the hype. However, his so-so numbers at the combine and lukewarm reviews from his workouts have several GMs wondering if he's worth a mid-first-round selection.

<hr> A number of top international prospects are in Treviso, Italy, performing in front of NBA scouts at the Reebok Eurocamp.
ESPN's Fran Fraschilla is in Italy covering the camp and will have a full report later. But through the first few days, I've spoken with a couple of scouts who have attended the camp.
Here's what we're hearing about the top players there:

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0520/nba_ap_ibaka_65.jpg
<center>Ibaka</center>Serge Ibaka (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19206), F, Congo
Most NBA teams got a good look at Ibaka at the Nike Hoop Summit, where he played well against some of the top high school players in the country. But he didn't blow anyone away.
He has good size and is an explosive leaper, but the rest of his game is still raw. He doesn't have the strength or inclination to play in the paint, but he also lacks great quickness, limiting his ability to guard small forwards. And for someone who likes to play on the perimeter, he isn't a dead-eye shooter. As a physical prospect, Ibaka is very interesting. But as a basketball player, he still has a lot of question marks.
Ibaka played well on the first and third days of Eurocamp, but he struggled at other times. He's a likely late-first-round pick if he stays in the draft.
Nicolas Batum (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19038), G/F, France
Batum, who once was considered a potential lottery pick before a so-so year in France, played in a game Monday in an effort to create some draft buzz. He shot 6-for-18, and 1-for-7 from 3. I don't think that was the impression he was hoping to make.
Goran Dragic (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18990), G, Slovenia
A number of scouts love Dragic. He's a big point guard with good athleticism, but his lack of a perimeter game and his so-so court vision have kept him out of the first-round talk.
According to scouts, he played well in a private workout Sunday and again in game action Monday.
Omer Asik (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19238) and Semih Erden (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19210), C, Turkey
With their team in Turkey failing to clear them for 5-on-5 play, Asik and Erden showed up to play in a workout. While both players are big and athletic, there is an interesting split among scouts about who's the better prospect. Asik is raw on the offensive end. Erden is more polished, but has a reputation for being immature.
Later this week, we'll have an in-depth look at the top international prospects in the draft and examine their waning influence at the top of the draft.

eldubious
06-11-2008, 01:28 PM
Good for DJ White, I hear he has a promise from the Pistons at 29. I don't think he'll make it down that far though. I could see him going in the mid 20s.

I hope Alexander cracks the top 10. If he goes high, then we could see either Gordon, Westbrook, Love, or B. Lopez fall to 11.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 03:59 PM
Good for DJ White, I hear he has a promise from the Pistons at 29.

Detroit has said that's not true.

croz24
06-11-2008, 05:13 PM
funny how i'm sorta wanting both the hot (joe alexander) and the not (ty lawson). this lawson ordeal might allow him to drop to us at #41. doubtful.

Doddage
06-11-2008, 05:23 PM
Hmm Hickson looking good in the camps... his potential has always intrigued me. All he needs is to develop some fundamentals and he can be a solid player in the mold of a David West.

owl
06-11-2008, 07:47 PM
I have been saying that Alexander is worth the number 11 even with the other sf's
on the Pacers. Looks like some teams are looking to pick him higher.
Too bad for the Pacers.

Speed
06-11-2008, 08:34 PM
i think they've picked up another pick, they keep bringing in guys who are late 1st or early 2nd rounders. It doesn't make sense, otherwise, imho.

Will Galen
06-11-2008, 09:05 PM
i think they've picked up another pick, they keep bringing in guys who are late 1st or early 2nd rounders. It doesn't make sense, otherwise, imho.

I doubt that they already have an agreement for another pick. Teams work until the last moment to get the best deal they can. So most deals are on draft day or the day before.

They could have an agreement that both they and another team will do if neither finds something they like better.

eldubious
06-12-2008, 01:39 PM
Scratch CDR off the list. He cancelled his workout with the Pacers. At best, he was a late 1st possibility.

Mr. Sobchak
06-12-2008, 02:55 PM
Today Hibbert, Jordan, and McGee all work out for us. I really hope we don't take Jordan...

Shade
06-12-2008, 02:59 PM
Scratch CDR off the list. He cancelled his workout with the Pacers. At best, he was a late 1st possibility.

Best news I've heard today.

esabyrn333
06-12-2008, 02:59 PM
Today Hibbert, Jordan, and McGee all work out for us. I really hope we don't take Jordan...


Of the 3 I would take Jordan.

Mourning
06-12-2008, 03:16 PM
I would take neither of 'em... I would be more enthousiastic about trading up or down to basically anywhere then to get one of those three.

blanket
06-12-2008, 03:16 PM
Of the 3 I would take Jordan.

I might take Jordan over the other 2, but not by a large margin, and definitely NOT at 11!

blanket
06-12-2008, 03:19 PM
Scratch CDR off the list. He cancelled his workout with the Pacers. At best, he was a late 1st possibility.

Actually...


Memphis All-America guard Chris Douglas-Roberts canceled his workout with plans to re-schedule.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/draft_central_2008.html

eldubious
06-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Today Hibbert, Jordan, and McGee all work out for us. I really hope we don't take Jordan...

I studied footage and read reviews on all three. At best, I'd say Jordan would at least be a defensive stopper next to O'Neal. But, he would definitely be one of two 1st round picks if the Pacers went that way. When is Arthur coming in?

Mourning
06-12-2008, 04:29 PM
I studied footage and read reviews on all three. At best, I'd say Jordan would at least be a defensive stopper next to O'Neal. But, he would definitely be one of two 1st round picks if the Pacers went that way. When is Arthur coming in?

I'm so not feeling the Jordan pick if we went that way.

Will Galen
06-12-2008, 04:39 PM
Of the 3 I would take Jordan.

I agree, however I don't like what I'm reading and hearing about any of them. At best serviceable, at worst busts.

Mourning
06-12-2008, 05:24 PM
Totally agree with you there, Will.

Mr. Sobchak
06-14-2008, 12:08 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/prospects

These are really good highlight videos from most of the lottery prospects.

imawhat
06-14-2008, 12:29 PM
But Arthur also has the offensive post footwork to go with that. He gets what the spacing goal of a solid PnR is, he wouldn't just plod into trouble because it was where he was supposed to go, he'd read it and space accordingly. He knows why he's using a move to get post position or why he needs to go someplace different out of a PnR.


The thing that worries me about Arthur is measurements, which are smaller than Ike Diogu's (aside from being 1/2" taller in shoes..smaller wingspan and smaller standing reach). Ike looked like a beast in the paint (still does) with his great footwork and quick positioning, but it's almost completely negated by his lack of size.


I haven't seen much of Arthur, but by your descriptions he seems to be a smarter player. I'm just afraid it won't make a difference in the NBA because of his size.

Otherwise, I like Arthur. He reminds me of a younger, smaller Jermaine O'Neal.

owl
06-14-2008, 01:09 PM
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/reggiewilliams.html


Does anyone know much about Williams? I like the description of him. Shoots for great percentage and is a lefty and unorthodox.

Will Galen
06-14-2008, 05:54 PM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basketball/heat/sfl-flspheat12sbjun12,0,3392168.story

No. 2 pick frustrating for Heat, but it has its rewards
By Ira Winderman |South Florida Sun-Sentinel
11:47 PM EDT, June 11, 2008

One hour.

That's the advance notice Bernie Bickerstaff had of the top overall selection while holding the No. 2 pick in the 2004 NBA (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sports/basketball/national-basketball-association-15008001.topic) Draft as general manager of the Charlotte Bobcats.

One hour.

"The guy we were dealing with, he was straight up and honest," Bickerstaff, now retired, said of then-Orlando General Manager John Weisbrod. "They changed their mind up until about an hour before the draft."

<!-- google ads --> <!-- END google ads -->The Magic took Atlanta high school center Dwight Howard (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sports/basketball/dwight-howard-PESPT008416.topic); the Bobcats were left with UConn (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/university-of-connecticut-OREDU0000152.topic) center Emeka Okafor (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sports/basketball/emeka-okafor-hpa1075.topic).
<!-- END rail -->
That draft, like the one coming up June 26, was considered a two-player draft, with this year's viewed as an either/or decision at the top for Chicago between Memphis point guard Derrick Rose (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sports/basketball/derrick-rose-PESPT008549.topic) and Kansas State power forward Michael Beasley.

This time the Heat is at No. 2, with many previously in that spot considering it the NBA's loneliest number.

"It is not the most comfortable position to be in," said Bucks General Manager John Hammond, who was a Pistons executive when Detroit held the No. 2 pick in 2003. "You like to be in control. All of us would like to be in control, especially people in this business, because a lot of times significant people are in control.

"In this case, you're not. You have to sit. You have to wait and see what happens."

NBA Vice President Stu Jackson was in that position for three consecutive years, from 1998 to 2000, as Grizzlies general manager.

"It's an uncomfortable feeling," he said. "I can remember on at least two of those occasions you really wanted to get up to one. That's the frustration."

Bickerstaff said No. 2 always calls No. 1.

"Your responsibility is to make that inquiry, to just try to ascertain what it would take to make that move," he said, having also held the No. 2 pick in 1995 while a Nuggets executive.

For as much as No. 2 has been in play over the past 13 drafts traded seven of those years it never was swapped for No. 1 over that stretch.

"If you're No. 1 and you're sitting there, you're trying to extract everything that you can," Bickerstaff said.

While Chicago General Manager John Paxson has been adamant that he hasn't decided on his pick, Bickerstaff said it is imperative No. 2 at least attempt a reconnaissance mission.

"What you try to do is you try to touch base with every resource you have out there, to try to ascertain who that first pick would be," he said. "There's always that guy, that friend, that you lean on. That's why I think those relationships are so good."

Hammond said even if Chicago should settle on a player the Heat covets, such as Rose, it could make the Heat feel like No. 1 for a day or two.

"I think we knew from the very beginning that LeBron [James (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/sports/basketball/lebron-james-PESPT008359.topic)] was going to be the No. 1 pick in our draft," Hammond said. "We didn't even investigate the potential of trying to get to one. A lot of people tried to get to two."

Jackson said No. 2 should not be viewed as a pitiable position.

"I think everybody has a certain control in that top half of the lottery, because there are always players up there that teams covet," he said. "If you've got two or three really good players at the top of the draft, the choices become more tempting."

The Heat appears to be selling that notion, with rather public overtures to Southern Cal guard O.J. Mayo and little attempt to hide meetings with Stanford center Brook Lopez and UCLA forward Kevin Love.

Bickerstaff said that approach is wise, allowing others to get the scent that a top pick could be had, that those who can't make it work at No. 1 just might find a suitor at No. 2.

"You've got to leave all the doors open," Bickerstaff said.

Most of all, Bickerstaff said you remain patient, even if it means having to wait until the 11th hour.

"You're going to do a lot of listening," he said, "because the offers get better the closer you get to the draft."

Ira Winderman can be reached at iwinderman@sun-sentinel.com

Mourning
06-14-2008, 07:49 PM
Pfff... they can have our pick if they want it, so they don't have such a difficult choice ahead of them... we'll gladly take their "frustration" for free :rolleyes:. Hell, we can S&T them David :sarcasm:.

wintermute
06-15-2008, 02:38 AM
Pfff... they can have our pick if they want it, so they don't have such a difficult choice ahead of them... we'll gladly take their "frustration" for free :rolleyes:. Hell, we can S&T them David :sarcasm:.

my sentiments exactly.

if #2 is such an ordeal, then #3 must be twice so, and so on.

blanket
06-16-2008, 05:46 PM
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Early-Entry-Withdrawal-Deadline-Who-s-In-or-Out--537-EST--2929/

Early-Entry Withdrawal Deadline: Who's In or Out? (5:37 EST)

by: DraftExpress
June 16, 2008
-According to Danilo Gallinari's official website:

"After some workouts and having carefully evalued any opportunity for his career, Danilo Gallinari decided to attend the 2008 NBA Draft. In this very moment Danilo and his father are in Los Angeles, waiting to be joined by the rest of the family."

Gallinari will work out for the Minnesota Timberwolves later this week, according to sources close to the situation.

-Rodrigue Beaubois- French point guard Rodrigue Beaubois will pull his name out of the draft, according to his agent Bill McCandless. Beaubois did not receive a promise in the first round, and thus preferred not to risk anything considering his excellent situation in Cholet next year. He canceled his workouts with Seattle and Cleveland. Fellow French early-entry prospect Luc Louves has withdrawn as well according to McCandless.

-Jonas Jerebko- Has withdrawn his name from the draft, according to his agent Doug Neustadt.

-C.J. Giles will keep his name in the draft, agent Bill Kent told DraftExpress.

- Chris Douglas-Roberts of Memphis will reportedly keep his name in the draft and hire agent Leon Rose.

-Ty Lawson will be returning to North Carolina, according to a source close to the situation.

-Ante Tomic is staying in the draft, according to his agent Marc Cornstein.

-Jeremy Pargo has withdrawn his name from the draft, according to a source close to the situation.

-Alexis Ajinca and Nicolas Batum will keep their name in the draft, according to agent Jeremy Medjana.

-Richard Hendrix will be keeping his name in the draft and signing with an agent, according to sources.

-Serge Ibaka will be keeping his name in the draft according to agent Andy Miller.

-The last three big unknowns are Ryan Anderson, Chase Budinger, and Lester Hudson. Budinger is currently working out for the Sacramento Kings.

-Robert Vaden has decided to return to school, according to an NBA scout.

-According to Jeff Goodman of Fox Sports, Bill Walker is in, while Ron Steele, Robert Dozier and AJ Abrams are out.

-Ryan Anderson is staying in the draft, according to a source close to the situation.

-Giorgi Shermadini has pulled his name out of the draft, according to his agent Todd Ramasar.

-Lester Hudson will be returning to school, according to his friend Ruben Webber. Webber said that teams told Hudson he would be drafted anywhere from 35-50, but that he preferred not to roll the dice and instead opted to return and get his degree. In Hudson's mind, the worst-case scenario is he goes in the same range next year, and there is always the upside of being able to crack the first round of a weaker draft with his degree in hand. Tennessee-Martin will be playing stronger competition next season than they did this year, including games against Southern Cal and Tennessee.

-Chase Budinger has withdrawn his name from the draft, according to an NBA executive with knowledge of the situation. Budinger conducted the process strangely from what we could gather, opting to work out for numerous teams who were well ahead of his draft range, such as the Knicks (#6), Clippers (#7) and Kings (#15)—and thus likely did not have the type of information he needed to make an informed decision. He will be returning to a situation in Arizona where he will have no chance but step up and have a great year, which puts a lot of pressure on him, but also will tell us a great deal about the kind of player he is. He will likely start off the year as a projected lottery pick and preseason All-American.

-Luke Winn of SI.com is reporting that UCLA’s Luc Richard Mbah a Moute is surprisingly keeping his name in the draft, despite the fact that he may not hear his name called in either rounds of the draft on June 26th.

Official Early-Entry List:

NCAA Staying In:

Joe Alexander, West Virginia (signed with Doug Neustadt)
Ryan Anderson, California
Darrell Arthur, Kansas
D.J. Augustin, Texas
Jerryd Bayless, Arizona
Michael Beasley, Kansas State
Mario Chalmers, Kansas
Chris Douglas-Roberts, Memphis
C.J. Giles, Oregon State
Donte Greene, Syracuse
Kalen Grimes, Missouri
Eric Gordon, Indiana
DeAndre Jordan, Texas A&M
Kosta Koufos, Ohio State
Jamont Gordon, Mississippi State (signing with Charles Grantham?)
Shawn James, Duquesne
Davon Jefferson, Southern California
Brook Lopez, Stanford
Robin Lopez, Stanford
Kevin Love, UCLA
O.J. Mayo, Southern California
Richard Hendrix, Alabama
J.J. Hickson, North Carolina State
George Hill, IUPUI
Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, UCLA
JaVale McGee, Nevada
Kojo Mensah, Duquesne
Trent Plaisted, Brigham Young
Anthony Randolph, LSU
Walter Sharpe, Alabama-Birmingham (signed with agent Danny Servick)
Derrick Rose, Memphis
Brandon Rush, Kansas
Marreese Speights, Florida
Bill Walker, Kansas State
Russell Westbrook, UCLA

International Players In:

Alexis Ajinca, Hyeres-Toulon (France)
Nicolas Batum, Le Mans (France)
Danilo Gallinari, Armani Jeans Milano (Italy)
Serge Ibaka, L'Hospitalet (Spain)
Ante Tomic, Zagreb (Croatia)

NCAA Pulled Out:

A.J. Abrams, Texas
Antonio Anderson, Memphis
Chase Budinger, Arizona
Lee Cummard, Brigham Young
DeMarre Carroll, Missouri
Josh Carter, Texas A&M
Robert Dozier, Memphis
Wayne Ellington, North Carolina
Alonzo Gee, Alabama
Danny Green, North Carolina
Lester Hudson, Tennessee-Martin
Stefon Jackson, Texas-El Paso
Ty Lawson, North Carolina
Leo Lyons, Missouri
Jerel McNeal, Marquette
Jeremy Pargo, Gonzaga
Josh Shipp, UCLA
Ron Steele, Alabama
John Riek, Winchendon School (MA)
Robert Vaden, Alabama-Birmingham

International Players Out:

Rodrigue Beaubois, Cholet (France)
Joe Ingles, Melbourne South Dragons (Australia)
Jonas Jerebko, Biella (Italy)
Luc Louves, Orleans (France)
Rudy Mbemba, Solna (Sweden)
Henk Norel, Alicante (Spain)
Giorgi Shermadini, Maccabi Tbilisi (Georgia)

NCAA On the Fence/Unknown:

Josh Akognon, Cal State Fullerton
Jason Bennett, Tallahassee CC (FL)
Keith Brumbaugh, Hillsborough CC (FL)
Derrick Caracter, Louisville
Bruce Price, Tennessee State

Unknown players

Derek Bailey, Providence Christian Academy (SC)
Charles Carter, Oklahoma Baptist
Paul Graham III, Florida Atlantic
Reggie Huffman, Alabama-Birmingham
Courtney Pigram, East Tennessee State
Kiwan Smith, Redlands CC (OK)
Gordon Watt, Houston Baptist
Raymond Wright, Arkansas-Monticello


International Players Unknown:

Mikheil Berishvili, BC Vita (Georgia)
Omri Casspi, Maccabi Elite Tel Aviv (Israel)
Victor Claver, Pamesa Valencia (Spain)
Nando de Colo, Cholet (France)
Sergey Ilin, Budivelnik (Ukraine)
Mladen Jeremic, FMP Zeleznik (Serbia)
Maxym Korniyenko, Dnipro (Ukraine)
Maxim Sheleketo, VEF Riga (Latvia)
Maksym Vilkhovetskyi, Dnipro (Ukraine)
Ronalds Zakis, VEF Riga (Latvia)

Mr. Sobchak
06-16-2008, 05:58 PM
Well at least Larry can't draft Buddinger this year...

Justin Tyme
06-16-2008, 07:14 PM
I thought I read in draftexpress a few minutes ago that Omri Casspi pulled out too.

It will be interesting to see how these pullouts will affect the newest draft forecast coming out soon.

pwee31
06-16-2008, 10:17 PM
Looks like North Carolina will be ranked #1 in the country with it's players returning

Anthem
06-16-2008, 11:03 PM
Well at least Larry can't draft Buddinger this year...
Oh man, that's EXACTLY what I thought.

DGPR
06-17-2008, 05:43 AM
If the Wolves draft Mayo this year, I wonder what it takes to pry Foye away from them?

D-BONE
06-17-2008, 07:52 AM
If the Wolves draft Mayo this year, I wonder what it takes to pry Foye away from them?

Well, obviously not JO or Tins I wouldn't suspect. Without actually checking salaries, maybe some combo from this group?

Shawne, Dun, Ike, Marquis, #11?

Real question surrounding Foye is how good can he be? Not to mention, is he a true point and how durable will he be?

I guess durability wise it's kind of a TJ Ford-like risk. Perhaps not quite as much, but Foye's had enough issues to make one hesitant.

Mr. Sobchak
06-17-2008, 06:32 PM
Thought this was interesting....

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=3437642


Jordan's game trying to catch up with his body

PHILADELPHIA -- The kids were merciless.

"C'mon," they'd scream. "You're the tallest guy out here. We keep throwing you the ball, and you don't do anything. You're awful."

And those were DeAndre Jordan's teammates.

That's the thing about being tall; people assume you are born with the tools of Wilt Chamberlain and the skills of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Forget that Jordan felt more like an awkward colt, all elbows and ankles as he tried to adjust to his chronically growth-spurting body.

He was the tallest kid in his class every year. He should be able to play.

"Oh my god, I heard so much trash talk," Jordan said and laughed.

The expectations didn't change much when he got to college, when that body had sprouted to 7 feet and the entire state of Super-Size-Me Texas expected Jordan to deliver great things to Texas A&M. He was OK but not a force, averaging 7.9 points, 6.0 rebounds and 1.3 blocks per game in his first and only season with the Aggies.

Now Jordan is about to pack his size 18 sneakers for the NBA. In a league that loves nothing more than potential and upside, the freakishly athletic Jordan induces salivating. He has hardly grown into his frame, his strength is all concentrated in his lower body with his upper body still like a piece of putty waiting for a weight-room sculptor to mold it.

He can handle the ball fairly well -- at a recent workout he did a series of 100 dribble drills, fumbling only twice -- and is a tremendous rebounder. His weakest link is his offense, but the NBA is littered with guys who couldn't/can't shoot.

On every draft board, he is a lottery pick lock. ESPN.com's Chad Ford rated him the 15th-best player in the draft, concluding that "on talent and physical ability, he's got the makings of a Top 5 pick."

But is the big, awkward kid ready to blossom?

"If someone is looking for instant gratification, he's not the right guy," said former NBA scout Steve Rosenberry, who's been working out Jordan for the past seven weeks in Philadelphia. "But three years from now, I mean who knows? Nobody has a crystal ball, but he could be the third-best player in this draft."

That's nothing shy of astounding to people who remember how Jordan played in the postseason.

And there probably aren't many who do remember him.

In two Big 12 tourney games and two NCAA tournament games, Jordan had seven points and five rebounds. Total.

"He'd make a play, we'd sit on the bench and think, 'There goes a first-rounder,'" Texas A&M coach Mark Turgeon said recently. "Five minutes later, he'd do something else and we'd think, 'He's coming back.'"

Far from home, far from anything he knows, the Houston native -- who has already signed with an agent, thus closing the book on a return to College Station -- has become a hoops rat. He spends upward of four hours a day in the gym at Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (the same place the 76ers practice) before heading back to his hotel room.

Kansas State's Michael Beasley was here for a while but he left a few weeks ago, so Jordan's free time is pretty routine.

"What do I do when I'm done? Sleep," he said.

Most people would agree this change of scenery is exactly what Jordan needed. Blessed with ungodly physical talents -- he's a YouTube dunk favorite -- Jordan needed to reawaken his passion for the game.

College sort of sucked it out of him.

Like a lot of freshmen, Jordan struggled with the weight of expectations compared to the reality of results. In the hypercompetitive Big 12, he had great games (14 points and 9 rebounds versus lowly Colorado), average games (8 and 6 versus Iowa State) and awful games (2 and 3 versus Oklahoma State). And he rode the roller coaster of emotion with every one.

Before the season started, a frustrated Turgeon said "he's 18 going on 12" of Jordan's emotions. Jordan admits his tattered self-esteem would take a bath every time Turgeon yelled at him.

"I talked to him about getting too high and too low, but that's tough for me at my age and that young man had extraordinary pressure on him," Turgeon said. "Sometimes he'd get low, and it would carry over to practice. It was an ongoing thing. We talked all the time."

There's no room for mood swings in an 82-game NBA season. Coaches don't have the time or the interest in coddling players or offering buck-up speeches. Don't produce and want to pout? The guy one seat over will gladly take your job.

Consequently Rosenberry has spent as much time on Jordan's mental toughness as his physical skills. He admits he "loves the kid" and delighted at a recent prank Jordan pulled. But he hasn't been afraid to give him a good verbal lashing.

On Friday, Jordan had two awful practices, Rosenberry said. Jordan wasn't hitting his shots, so he decided everything he had done had been wasted.

Rosenberry not so gently explained to him that wasn't the case.

"When guys are young, everything is predicated on how many shots they make," Rosenberry said. "That's not who he is. His shot will get better with repetition and I told him, 'Everybody has days when you don't make shots.' I give him a lot of credit. He came back Saturday [in a private workout with 19 teams], and his workout was off the charts. He's come a long way."

If a sign of maturity is recognizing where you messed up and admitting it, Jordan is on his way. He knows now that his emotional and mental makeup interfered with his physical progress at A&M, knows he has no one to blame but himself.

"You have to keep a level head, stay on the path, and I didn't do that," Jordan said. "I was inconsistent because I'd get down on myself. I think if I went back to college, people would see a different player."

Maybe even a kid who plays as big as he stands.

eldubious
06-18-2008, 07:21 PM
The Suns are tyring to move up to draft Alexander, they are considering moving Barbosa or Diaw possibly to the Knicks for the 6th pick. Alexander is a lock at #6 either for the Knicks or someone else.

Speed
06-18-2008, 08:11 PM
The Suns are tyring to move up to draft Alexander, they are considering moving Barbosa or Diaw possibly to the Knicks for the 6th pick. Alexander is a lock at #6 either for the Knicks or someone else.

This is very good news for the Pacers, means someone falls to them.

Although I'm a hug Joe fan.

wintermute
06-19-2008, 03:49 AM
more rumors from draftexpress

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/



Trade Talk

Numerous teams we spoke with today discussed the rumors of a potential draft-night trade that is making the rounds in NBA circles. Presuming that Derrick Rose goes #1, Miami would select Michael Beasley at #2 regardless, and wait to see if O.J. Mayo were to fall to the 5th overall pick. If that indeed was the case, Memphis would select him, and then trade him to Miami along with Mike Miller in exchange for Mark Blount and Beasley.

Seattle is also reportedly trying hard to move up to #2, and is dangling Chris Wilcox as bait (in exchange for the cumbersome contract of Mark Blount). The Supersonics would also take Beasley there. This is all assuming that O.J. Mayo doesn’t go third to Minnesota, which is not something teams should take for granted just yet based off what we know so far.

Memphis’ additional first round selection, the #28 pick, acquired from the Lakers in the Pau Gasol trade, is also reportedly in play. Rumors have the Grizzlies potentially trading this pick to Denver along with Kyle Lowry in exchange for the #20 pick. It’s possible that they would try and leap-frog the Orlando Magic and select Courtney Lee, who reportedly had a terrific workout there last week.

Other picks that we’re hearing rumors about include #6 (New York, trying to move up, or back), #19 (Cleveland, possibly to move up and take Brandon Rush), and #29 (Detroit, who supposedly isn’t enamored by anyone in this area). Two teams that are reportedly looking to acquire an additional first round pick are the Spurs (who unfortunately have very little to offer) and the Suns. The Wizards wouldn’t mind moving out if someone would offer them a good deal involving a point guard, but at this point that doesn’t seem likely to happen. Cleveland is trying to buy their way into the mid-first round, but unlike in years past, it won’t be Phoenix that is selling.

Look for the Los Angeles Lakers to try and land an early second round pick (possibly from Seattle) in order to draft IUPUI’s George Hill. He worked out in Los Angeles and reportedly was very impressive. His college team actually ran the triangle offense, and that is always a big factor in the Lakers’ workouts.

Who’s Gonna Slip?

As we continue to work the phones to discuss with teams who they hear is going where, we first of all need to establish which prospects will be on the board. At this point it’s clear that there is a fairly significant drop-off in this year’s draft class right around the 12th (Sacramento) or 13th (Portland) pick, as all the prospects that are getting mentions have some serious “warts” in the words of one NBA executive, which make teams hesitant about drafting them. The question is which will be overlooked, and which will cause players to slip.

Players that might find themselves being drafted a bit lower than they hoped include DeAndre Jordan, JaVale McGee, and possibly even Anthony Randolph. If Sacramento selects Darrell Arthur at #12 like many NBA sources we spoke with anticipate (this was his last workout stop before cancelling numerous workouts), then Randolph could be in for quite a tumble, as he would likely continue to slip past Portland at #13, Golden State at #14, Phoenix at #15, until reaching Philadelphia at #16. That’s about 10 spots lower than some mocks have him projected right now, but isn’t out of the question depending on how things play out next week. Randolph is not helping himself reportedly with the way he’s working out, being very average so far according to numerous people who’ve watched him, looking “laid back” or even “out of shape.” Compounding the problem is that he may have recently hurt his shoulder.

Another player who could crash the lottery unexpectedly and even shockingly go just one spot below his twin brother is Stanford center Robin Lopez. Lopez reportedly canceled all his remaining workouts (with the Pacers, Kings, Sixers, and more) with a supposed “sprained ankle” after working out for the New Jersey Nets this past week. Although the tenth pick is widely believed to be Danilo Gallinari’s, no one would know better about where the Italian small forward will get drafted than his agent Arn Tellem, who also happens to represent the Lopez twins. Robin being promised to go tenth (a speculatory rumor that is definitely making the rounds) almost surely means that Gallinari is going sixth to the Knicks. The Nets can’t expect to wait and pick Lopez at #21, as there is very little chance he gets past Phoenix at 15, or at the very worst (if Donte Greene slips past Golden State), Toronto at 17, where he is extremely coveted.

While DeAndre Jordan and JaVale McGee are refusing to conduct workouts with certain teams drafting outside of the lottery (McGee’s mother foolishly won’t let him visit anyone past 12 from what one frustrated team told us), there is no shortage of workout warriors on the prowl looking to take their spot in the teens portion of the draft. One of those is Alexis Ajinca, who may be working himself into that 12-14 range, based off the workouts he’s having.

One executive who recently watched him expressed shock at his combination of physical tools (7-1 in shoes, 240 pounds, with a near 7-7 wingspan), coordination and agility. “If he were in college, let’s say at Nevada instead of JaVale McGee, he would be a sure-fire top 10 pick,” the executive noted. “He’s bigger than McGee, and he’s also more skilled…with that length, he is going to be able to bother some people for sure” Ajinca is answering question marks about his toughness by not backing down from anyone he’s faced so far, particularly in an outstanding workout in Charlotte where he matched up with Jordan, McGee and Roy Hibbert. His experience playing against grown men all season long in the French league is certainly showing in workouts so far it seems.

The safest pick amongst players being projected to go from 13-19 is likely Brandon Rush. He could seemingly be picked by any of those teams, and be able to find a way to be productive thanks to his size, shooting ability and defensive skills. He’s probably not going to be a star, but as you’ll be able to read in the research conducted by Heather N. Allen and Paul Gearan tomorrow, that’s not such a bad thing in this range.

Feedback for this article may be sent to jonathan@draftexpress.com


points of interest bolded.

it's not surprising that raw guys like randolph, jordan, and mcgee are falling. though a bit surprising that robin lopez is climbing so high. same with ajinca. both of them will be near our range, if dx is correct.

i like george hill for our 2nd round pick, if he's still around.

geetee
06-20-2008, 03:49 AM
Saw this in the local paper about Augustin and his workout with Portland. Thought I'd pass it along since many of the mocks have us picking him...

http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/121384591980530.xml&coll=7
Augustin gives Blazers another talking point

Texas' point guard has an impressive workout, but Portland might need to trade up if it hopes to draft him
Thursday, June 19, 2008
JOE FREEMAN
The Oregonian Staff
TUALATIN -- As the Trail Blazers continued to ponder their offseason options, field calls regarding potential trades and debate whether to unload the No. 13 pick in the NBA draft, they were presented with another enticing possibility Wednesday morning.
And it came in the form of a smooth, playmaking 6-foot point guard from Texas.
In a performance that wowed coach Nate McMillan and further enhanced his draft stock, sophomore D.J. Augustin delivered perhaps the most impressive showing during more than two weeks of predraft workouts at the Blazers' practice facility.

McMillan and general manager Kevin Pritchard have been guarded in their public critiques of predraft visitors, and they remained so Wednesday. But it was clear the player who won the Bob Cousy Award, given to college basketball's best point guard, made a favorable impression -- even though the Blazers might have to trade up to draft him.
"I think this kid is born to be a point guard," Pritchard said.
The Blazers were impressed by the leaping ability and potential of West Virginia forward Joe Alexander on Tuesday and the playmaking ability and athleticism of UCLA guard Russell Westbrook last week. But Augustin was equally, if not more, impressive than each of the high-level prospects.
Toward the end of the workout, when reporters were allowed to watch, Augustin displayed a polished, NBA-ready game that included accurate shooting, smart play and the ability to navigate through defenses -- particularly on pick-and-roll plays. He faced little resistance in penetrating toward the basket and always seemed to find the open man, which often resulted in easy jump shots or layups.
During a three-on-three half-court drill, Augustin once knifed between two perimeter defenders and dished a pretty no-look pass to a teammate for an open layup. Moments later, during an almost identical situation, he sliced between two defenders, darted right, stepped back and hit a midrange jumper.
Augustin competed against five other prospects, including Oregon's Malik Hairston; Xavier's Stanley Burrell, the Atlantic 10 Conference defensive player of the year; and guard Jason Rich, a four-year starter from Florida State. And even though McMillan values taller, more physical point guards, he discovered that Augustin could "hold his own" against bigger NBA guards.
"I tried to put a physical guard, a quick guard and a big guard on him just to take a look at all that . . . and he did a nice job of getting where he needed to be," McMillan said. "The one thing he has is the ability to handle the ball very well. Even though some of the guards were trying to pressure him and get to the ball, his ability to handle the ball forced them to have to back off. But also his ability to shoot the ball forced them to stay pretty close. He's a guy who can get where he needs to go on the basketball floor."
Augustin made 37 of 50 shots (74 percent), including 26 of his first 30 attempts, during a three-point shooting drill at the end of the workout. The consensus first-team All-American averaged 16.9 points and 6.2 assists and shot 40.2 percent from three-point range during his two-year college career.
In an effort to enhance his draft stock, Augustin has been working out in Houston under the guidance of former NBA player and coach John Lucas. For much of the last two months, Augustin regularly has competed against Denver guard J.R. Smith and Toronto point guard T.J. Ford, who has become a mentor.
"I've been doing this all my life," Augustin said. "I know how to lead a team and hopefully I can come in and do that for any team (in the NBA). I'd love to play with the players (Portland has). It's a great organization. I'm friends with LaMarcus Aldridge. It's a great team and . . . it would be great to play here."
But will he be available for the Blazers? Wednesday marked Augustin's final predraft workout after auditions with Indiana (which has the No. 11 pick in the draft), Phoenix (No. 15), Sacramento (No. 12), the Los Angeles Clippers (No. 7) and the New York Knicks (No. 6). Most mock drafts have him landing with teams picking ahead of the Blazers.
One prevailing thought is that the Blazers intend to trade No. 13 in an effort to acquire a veteran. But Pritchard has made it clear that should the right player come along, he wouldn't hesitate to trade up and acquire him. If nothing else, Augustin on Wednesday offered Pritchard and the Blazers another appealing possibility, showing that he might be the best natural point guard in the draft outside of likely No. 1 pick Derrick Rose.
"You know what he is, he's a pure point guard," Pritchard said. "He's crafty, he knows how to get in the paint and make the right decisions. And we were talking about it a little bit: The thing about D.J. is he thinks the game very fast. His ability to see the floor and react to the situation -- which is what the great point guards do -- he does that well. You can tell he's been a point guard his whole life."
Joe Freeman: 503-294-5183; joefreeman@news.oregonian.com To read his Behind the Beat blog, go to http://blog.oregonlive.com/ behindblazersbeat/




I was on the fence about this guy so this makes me feel better about him. Doesn't mention his defense though.
vl

Wage
06-20-2008, 03:20 PM
I know this won't be a popular sentiment here, but I think Augustin will be a better pro than Conley Jr.

I think if Conley were in this draft, he would go in the 8 to 16 range.

Trader Joe
06-20-2008, 03:26 PM
I know this won't be a popular sentiment here, but I think Augustin will be a better pro than Conley Jr.

I think if Conley were in this draft, he would go in the 8 to 16 range.

He was in a better draft last year and went at number 4.

Mourning
06-20-2008, 04:42 PM
I know this won't be a popular sentiment here, but I think Augustin will be a better pro than Conley Jr.

I think if Conley were in this draft, he would go in the 8 to 16 range.

Ehhh... no, I think last years draft was way better in the first 8 picks then this years draft. This years draft though a little less on quality is much deeper IMO.

OTOH this draft class also seems much younger, but I could be wrong there, so maybe there's more growth, but I don't recall many commentarors telling that.

I think Conley would prob. go at 4-6, pick #4 depending on what the Sonics would prefer (Bayless or Conley Jr. I would say Conley probably btw).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Wage
06-20-2008, 05:02 PM
He was in a better draft last year and went at number 4.

In my opinion, this year's draft is far superior in terms of guards.

I think Bayless, Mayo, and Gordon are clearly superior to Conley, and Westbrook and Augustin are close, but I give the edge to both Westbrook and Augustin. I also do not think Law would crack the top 20 in this draft.

Speed
06-20-2008, 06:23 PM
Ehhh... no, I think last years draft was way better in the first 8 picks then this years draft. This years draft though a little less on quality is much deeper IMO.

OTOH this draft class also seems much younger, but I could be wrong there, so maybe there's more growth, but I don't recall many commentarors telling that.

I think Conley would prob. go at 4-6, pick #4 depending on what the Sonics would prefer (Bayless or Conley Jr. I would say Conley probably btw).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

I agree, I don't remember a draft that all of the highest picks are 1st year players or seem to be.

Speed
06-20-2008, 09:32 PM
The recent Chad Ford Podcast has Jason Thompson of Rider moving up to 13-15 area maybe.

Also Leandro Barbosa and Boris Diaw are available. Barbosa is a better point guard than the Pacers currently have, so it would interesting if they could drop down to 15 and get the guy they want AND get Barbosa.

Also, the Richard Jefferson rumors are flying again because the Nets want to get under the cap in 2010. Hmmmmm who do we know that expires that year?????

Anyway, if you could move JO to the Nets for Jefferson and the 21 pick, would you do it.

I know Jefferson is another small forward, but I think he could play the 2 better than Dunleavy and thats an AWESOME wing rotation. I've always though Dun should come off the bench anyway and be 6th man of the year.

JO and Richard Jefferson were not the rumor stated, but JO would completely satisfy what WAS stated that they were trying to do.

How about JO for Richard Jefferson and the #21 pick and the right to swap the 10th for 11th. It works for both teams in a BIG way I think.

In this scenario, you can get Augustine and a maybe a Speight, Hibbert, or CDR or Flip it and get a Big first and pick up a Chalmers on the back end, it opens up a WHOLE lot of things. And that is not even counting the 41 pick.

It works for the Nets cuz they get JO which is 100% what they lack right now. He drops off in 2010 so Jay Z and Brooklyn can go after Lebron. It works for the Pacers cuz you pick up the extra draft pick and get rid of JO who is leaving anyway in two years. You pick Richard Jefferson who averaged over 20 a game last year and is in his prime and CAN penetrate, plus he played 82 games at 39 mins a night. I think Jefferson is a great lockeroom guy never had problems that I am aware of and I think he is tailor made for Obie's system. I also think he would compliment both Granger and Dunleavy.

This makes too much sense to happen. Oh ya and for those of you concerned about Jefferson, he's still young enough (turns 28 tomorrow) and as far as the length of contract, you would be hard pressed to spend your money better, imho.

Jefferson makes 13.2, 14.2, 15 = 42.4

JO makes 21.3, 23 = 44.3

Justin Tyme
06-20-2008, 09:52 PM
The recent Chad Ford Podcast has Jason Thompson of Rider moving up to 13-15 area maybe.

Also Leandro Barbosa and Boris Diaw are available. Barbosa is a better point guard than the Pacers currently have, so it would interesting if they could drop down to 15 and get the guy they want AND get Barbosa.

Also, the Richard Jefferson rumors are flying again because the Nets want to get under the cap in 2010. Hmmmmm who do we know that expires that year?????

Anyway, if you could move JO to the Nets for Jefferson and the 21 pick, would you do it.

I know Jefferson is another small forward, but I think he could play the 2 better than Dunleavy and thats an AWESOME wing rotation. I've always though Dun should come off the bench anyway and be 6th man of the year.

JO and Richard Jefferson were not the rumor stated, but JO would completely satisfy what WAS stated that they were trying to do.

How about JO for Richard Jefferson and the #21 pick and the right to swap the 10th for 11th. It works for both teams in a BIG way I think.

In this scenario, you can get Augustine and a maybe a Speight, Hibbert, or CDR or Flip it and get a Big first and pick up a Chalmers on the back end, it opens up a WHOLE lot of things. And that is not even counting the 41 pick.

It works for the Nets cuz they get JO which is 100% what they lack right now. He drops off in 2010 so Jay Z and Brooklyn can go after Lebron. It works for the Pacers cuz you pick up the extra draft pick and get rid of JO who is leaving anyway in two years. You pick Richard Jefferson who averaged over 20 a game last year and is in his prime and CAN penetrate, plus he played 82 games at 39 mins a night. I think Jefferson is a great lockeroom guy never had problems that I am aware of and I think he is tailor made for Obie's system. I also think he would compliment both Granger and Dunleavy.

This makes too much sense to happen. Oh ya and for those of you concerned about Jefferson, he's still young enough (turns 28 tomorrow) and as far as the length of contract, you would be hard pressed to spend your money better, imho.

Jefferson makes 13.2, 14.2, 15 = 42.4

JO makes 21.3, 23 = 44.3

Salaries don't match. There is a difference of 8 mil in their 08-09 salaries. There has to be another filler from NJ to make it work.

Speed
06-20-2008, 10:17 PM
Salaries don't match. There is a difference of 8 mil in their 08-09 salaries. There has to be another filler from NJ to make it work.

How much does the draft pick count?

Will Galen
06-21-2008, 01:14 AM
How much does the draft pick count?

Nothing before the draft.

Speed
06-21-2008, 07:07 AM
Nothing before the draft.

Then how do you ever trade a player for a pick? Anyway I think they have Keith Van Horns dead contract too, I'm not sure what it is, but you could make it work, I think.

Justin Tyme
06-21-2008, 07:42 AM
Then how do you ever trade a player for a pick? Anyway I think they have Keith Van Horns dead contract too, I'm not sure what it is, but you could make it work, I think.

KVH contract, when I looked it up last night on Shamsports, is non-guaranteed for 2 years. I'm not sure it can be used, but if it can it costs the Nets nothing to use. The other player that has a contract with enough money to make it work, that I felt the Nets would trade, is Stromile Swift with an expiring 6.2 mil salary. I can't imagine the Nets would not include him in the trade. They were willing to put Collins in the trade last season who they traded to get Swift.

I have a little different slant on trading for Jefferson, it is the samething I wanted to do last year, and that is to trade Jefferson for better pieces to the puzzle. By keeping Jefferson, it creates an evermore glut at SF, and you are taking minutes away from Shawne and Graham.

Will Galen
06-21-2008, 07:46 AM
Then how do you ever trade a player for a pick? Anyway I think they have Keith Van Horns dead contract too, I'm not sure what it is, but you could make it work, I think.

Several points.

I know JO's agent has said he isn't going to opt out, but I haven't read anything that says we can now trade JO before or during the draft. It would have to be a deal that takes place after July 1st.

Two, there have been a lot of JO trades to NJ on here that will work, so it could be done.

Three, regarding KVH; NJ has no doubt already opted out of his contract. If not, and we traded for him we would have to pay him for two years, since the rest of his contract would have kicked in. That won't happen.

Four, 71. How are draft picks handled in trades?

Draft picks (both first and second round) count $0 for salary matching purposes. This is true both before and after the draft, until the player signs a contract. This can make it very difficult to construct a trade that is equitable in both trade value and basketball talent. For example, Vancouver selected Steve Francis with the #2 pick in the 1999 draft, and traded his draft rights to Houston. When the trade was finally engineered, it included three teams (Orlando was also involved), 11 players (including Francis) and two future draft picks.

Once the draft pick signs a contract, his actual salary becomes his trade value.

Note that even though a draft pick's trade value (for salary matching purposes) is $0, a first round pick is included in the team's team salary at 100% of his scale amount once he is selected in the draft, unless he signs with a non-NBA team (see question number 41 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#41)). If an unsigned first round draft pick is traded, then 100% of his scale amount is included in the acquiring team's team salary as soon as the trade is completed. An unsigned second round pick does not count toward team salary.

Teams can only trade draft picks five years into the future (for example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then the 2010 pick can be traded, but the 2011 pick can't). It is common to "protect" picks depending on their position (e.g. "we keep it if it's in the lottery, otherwise you get it"), to avoid a repeat of some unfortunate past trades, such as the 1982 trade between the Cavs and Lakers, where the pick LA received turned out to be the first overall pick and was used to draft James Worthy. Now, it is common to see picks traded with protection that relaxes over several years -- for example, a first-round pick in 2005, unless it is in the lottery, in which case a first-round pick in 2006, unless it is one of the top three, in which case an unconditional pick in 2007.
In addition, teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is called the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a future first-round draft pick in consecutive years.
This rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then teams can trade their 2006 first round pick without regard to whether they had a 2005 pick, since their 2005 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2006 and 2007 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years.
In addition, teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their first round pick. So teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they have another team's first round pick in one of those years.
A team cannot sign and immediately trade a draft pick in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 76 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#76)).

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#76

Speed
06-21-2008, 08:06 AM
Several points.

I know JO's agent has said he isn't going to opt out, but I haven't read anything that says we can now trade JO before or during the draft. It would have to be a deal that takes place after July 1st.

Two, there have been a lot of JO trades to NJ on here that will work, so it could be done.

Three, regarding KVH; NJ has no doubt already opted out of his contract. If not, and we traded for him we would have to pay him for two years, since the rest of his contract would have kicked in. That won't happen.

Four, 71. How are draft picks handled in trades?

Draft picks (both first and second round) count $0 for salary matching purposes. This is true both before and after the draft, until the player signs a contract. This can make it very difficult to construct a trade that is equitable in both trade value and basketball talent. For example, Vancouver selected Steve Francis with the #2 pick in the 1999 draft, and traded his draft rights to Houston. When the trade was finally engineered, it included three teams (Orlando was also involved), 11 players (including Francis) and two future draft picks.

Once the draft pick signs a contract, his actual salary becomes his trade value.

Note that even though a draft pick's trade value (for salary matching purposes) is $0, a first round pick is included in the team's team salary at 100% of his scale amount once he is selected in the draft, unless he signs with a non-NBA team (see question number 41 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#41)). If an unsigned first round draft pick is traded, then 100% of his scale amount is included in the acquiring team's team salary as soon as the trade is completed. An unsigned second round pick does not count toward team salary.

Teams can only trade draft picks five years into the future (for example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then the 2010 pick can be traded, but the 2011 pick can't). It is common to "protect" picks depending on their position (e.g. "we keep it if it's in the lottery, otherwise you get it"), to avoid a repeat of some unfortunate past trades, such as the 1982 trade between the Cavs and Lakers, where the pick LA received turned out to be the first overall pick and was used to draft James Worthy. Now, it is common to see picks traded with protection that relaxes over several years -- for example, a first-round pick in 2005, unless it is in the lottery, in which case a first-round pick in 2006, unless it is one of the top three, in which case an unconditional pick in 2007.
In addition, teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is called the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a future first-round draft pick in consecutive years.
This rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then teams can trade their 2006 first round pick without regard to whether they had a 2005 pick, since their 2005 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2006 and 2007 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years.
In addition, teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their first round pick. So teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they have another team's first round pick in one of those years.
A team cannot sign and immediately trade a draft pick in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 76 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#76)).

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#76


Thanks for the info, very interesting.

Here's the Keith Van Horn thing. I knew I had seen something a couple of months back, for some reason, I think it is around 8 million that expires this year, but the money part I'm not sure about. Well I found one thing that said his 2007 salary was 4.3, so I'm still not sure what the 2008 salary is, but it still might not quite be enough to match. His contract is a pretty valuable thing for them.

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/Nets_ready_if_the_deals_right.html

They want more proven players and hope their assets, which also include Dallas' No. 1 pick in 2010 acquired in the Jason Kidd trade and the expiring contracts of Ager, Stromile Swift and Keith Van Horn, could help them acquire veterans.

count55
06-21-2008, 08:48 AM
Several points.

I know JO's agent has said he isn't going to opt out, but I haven't read anything that says we can now trade JO before or during the draft. It would have to be a deal that takes place after July 1st.


If JO officially notified the Pacers in writing of his intent to waive the ETO, which is implied in this Mike Wells article (http://http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/SPORTS04/80604056#), then the Pacers are free to trade him prior to July 1. It is not clear that the notification was in writing, but I inferred it from this:


O誰eal痴 representatives recently informed the Pacers he will not opt out of the final two years of his contract. O誰eal had until June 30 to decide whether to become an unrestricted free agent.

So, I believe JO is in play for Draft Day trades.


KVH contract, when I looked it up last night on Shamsports, is non-guaranteed for 2 years. I'm not sure it can be used, but if it can it costs the Nets nothing to use.

A non-guaranteed contract is still a tradeable asset of the team since it is the team's option, not the players. If you'll recall, both Rawle Marshall and Josh Powell had non-guaranteed contracts when we acquired them as part of the AJ-Army deal. There were certain dates we had to release them by in order to avoid paying them their contracts, but we kept them and the year became guaranteed. KVH's contract could be used, and I think we could release him in relatively short order.


Then how do you ever trade a player for a pick? Anyway I think they have Keith Van Horns dead contract too, I'm not sure what it is, but you could make it work, I think.

There are only two times you can trade a player for a pick.

--If the team receiving the player is far enough under the cap to absorb the player's salary, then there is no issue

--If both teams are over the cap, a deal could still be made if the player is making the league minimum. Teams are allowed to take players at league minimum without penalty to the cap (though it does affect luxury tax), so, theoretically, the Pacers could trade, say the #41 pick to Atlanta for Solomon Jones. (Not that I'm proposing that in the least...that was just the first player I found with a minimum salary contract for next year.)

There may be a third time, but I'm a little fuzzy on the exact rule. This is the famed Trade Exception. It's possible for a team to trade a TE for a player, but I struggle as to what can be combined with the TE. I know you can't combine TE's or combine a TE with a player, but I'm not sure if a pick would be a problem. The Harrington deal is a problematic example because of the inclusion of John Edwards. (Was it one deal? Was it two deals?)

count55
06-21-2008, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the info, very interesting.

Here's the Keith Van Horn thing. I knew I had seen something a couple of months back, for some reason, I think it is around 8 million that expires this year, but the money part I'm not sure about. Well I found one thing that said his 2007 salary was 4.3, so I'm still not sure what the 2008 salary is, but it still might not quite be enough to match. His contract is a pretty valuable thing for them.

.

KVH's 2008-2009 salary (http://http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/nets.jsp) is about $3.8mm.

Justin Tyme
06-21-2008, 08:51 AM
said his 2007 salary was 4.3, so I'm still not sure what the 2008 salary is, but it still might not quite be enough to match. His contract is a pretty valuable thing for them.

Shamsports shows KVH's 07-08 salary at 4.2 mil with non-guaranteed years in 08-09 at 3.8 mil and 09-10 at 3.3 mil. I'm guessing the contract was front loaded and the last 2 years non-guaranteed to make the Kidd deal work.

I'm not sure how trading non-guaranteed contracts work, if traded they stay non-guaranteed or they become guaranteed. If they stay non-guaranteed, the Pacers could cut him or just use him later in another trade as filler.

Speed
06-21-2008, 11:31 PM
I never go to Rats, well, I hadn't been there in months, but draft time is one of my favorite times, so I decided to take a look. I always think its funny/interesting to see the "insider" info. I don't believe it at all, he calls Harrison plodding, which I would say he's poor Bball IQ, but never slow for a big guy. And he talks about how the Tinsley and I think that is completely not true or even close. Otherwise its pretty well thought out, I think. I guess if the draft the Frenchman I'll eat every word. Anyway here's the post.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckForum&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3adb3f8cfb-fbf2-46a8-9949-2d94e2faab75Forum%3a35a45a0b-91c7-4df9-a234-b6cf42f94209Discussion%3adf262fe2-f9d7-47b8-966c-0e4ee017466e&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Parlez Vous Francais.....

"You better, Pacers will take Alexis Ajinca. Ideally, they're looking to move the 11th pick and draft him a little lower OR trade for a second 1st round pick under 20. But, if they can't swing either of the deals, he's still there man at 11.

Larry wants a big who can play and contribute this year. Ajinca has the best footwork of any 7'r, great length and athleticism, and can step back and nail the mid-range jumper, forcing defenders to take him seriously away from the post. The team believes he will be NBA ready by midseason."

-------
AND in a later post in that same thread.

"Inside information on the player highest on the Pacer's list for an immediate contributor, which apparantly is a big Bird priority. Ajinca also brings two important things to the table. One, is footwork - the team knows what plodding feet result in, as it's been core issue with Harrison's ability to avoid fouls in the NBA. Second, he adds a center presence that can run in O'Brien's system and hopefully allow O'Neal to finally play the 4-spot. Presence alone on the court, without improving the defense at all from last year, could lower points-against by about 4per game via blocks and changing shots. Combine that with whatever he can contribute offensively from the 5-spot (a position completely void of production last year), and the team goes from outside to inside the playoffs. Seems the team never will go the Boston route and tank a season to win 1-2 years out. The only issue is draft position, as 'bigs' are being valued relatively low this year, they feel they can get him later in the round. However, he is who they want.

That said, the draft board has Westbrook gone by the 11th. I think if he falls, the team will have to take him as they're in love with his overall size/stature and potential to contribute perimiter defense off the bench season 1. Should he fall, look for the Pacers to aggressively look to trade back into the 1st round to grab Ajinca.

Biggest "oh no - don't do that on the board"....Anthony Randolph. Don't let O'Brien draft, that's all I'm going to say.

Player on the trading block, Foster + name your favorite semi-valuable player you'd like to see gone.

Player not in as bad of a doghouse as you'd think - Tinsley. Verbal punishment in the press has been to motivate him, the team desperately wants/needs him to contribute. That said, he could just as easily be carrying Foster's bags to some other city if a deal for a veteran point guard emerges.

Player more in the doghouse than you'd expect - Granger. Team is laying hard on his faults, partially to light a fire under him to play defense and work within O'Brien's system to get other players involved, and partially to cut down his perceived value as ultimately they have to sign him long term at the end of the season. His agent is dressing up his public image because they sense it's a franchise weakness and thus makes for a stronger negotiating position with team. Trust me, there is a brewing confrontation on this front. Expect to here a lot of "I'd love to stay with this theam BUT...basketball is a business....type comments"."

CableKC
06-21-2008, 11:33 PM
I'm not sure if this was posted....but Wells posted this in his Blog today.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2008/06/westbrook_wont.html


June 21, 2008
Westbrook won't be a Pacer

From IndyStar.com
Posted by Mike Wells

You can stop wondering if Russell Westbrook will be there when the Pacers pick at No. 11 on Thursday.

Pacers president Larry Bird had hoped Westbrook would visit Tuesday after not working out for them because of an injury last week.

That plan got scrapped because I've been told Westbrook has been given a "promise" by a team picking higher than the Pacers. I'm not sure which team has given Westbrook the "promise."

Wouldn't it be something if Donnie Walsh took the player his former team has had its eye on for some time?

That leaves D.J. Augustin at No. 11 for the Pacers if he's there, right?

You would think that, but I was talking to somebody in the organization last week about the whole point guard-best player available scenario. That person brought up a good point: Would you rather draft a point guard that's going to be just an average player in the NBA or take the best player available?

What if a player falls in their lap (think back to Danny Granger in 2005) at No. 11? You've got to pass on Augustin (if he's still there) and take the better overall player.

My man Steve from Area 51,52,53,55,58, draft picks have no financial value when it comes to trades.
Not in any particular order, I'm guessing the following are shoe-ins for the draft...assuming that Westbrook indeed has a promise:

1 ) Rose
2 ) Beasley
3 ) Love
4 ) Bayless
5 ) Mayo
6 ) Westbrook
7 ) Lopez
8 ) Gordon

With decent workouts and other solid prospects like Joe Alexander, Danilo Gallnari, Darrell Arthur and players with potential that may go higher like Jordan....I can see any of them going higher ( probably Alexander or Gallinari to the Bucks ) and therefore pushing someone decent to us.

I'm guessing that the Nets will pick anything other then a Guard since they already have Harris, Williams and VC....but taking into consideration what Wells pointed out about Augustin....Who will likely be available when we pick?

or worse....we are ( again ) stuck in No-Man's land when it comes to drafting.....we are the 1st team to draft a player that may or may not pan out....

CableKC
06-21-2008, 11:48 PM
I never go to Rats, well, I hadn't been there in months, but draft time is one of my favorite times, so I decided to take a look. I always think its funny/interesting to see the "insider" info. I don't believe it at all, he calls Harrison plodding, which I would say he's poor Bball IQ, but never slow for a big guy. And he talks about how the Tinsley and I think that is completely not true or even close. Otherwise its pretty well thought out, I think. I guess if the draft the Frenchman I'll eat every word. Anyway here's the post.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckForum&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3adb3f8cfb-fbf2-46a8-9949-2d94e2faab75Forum%3a35a45a0b-91c7-4df9-a234-b6cf42f94209Discussion%3adf262fe2-f9d7-47b8-966c-0e4ee017466e&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Parlez Vous Francais.....

"You better, Pacers will take Alexis Ajinca. Ideally, they're looking to move the 11th pick and draft him a little lower OR trade for a second 1st round pick under 20. But, if they can't swing either of the deals, he's still there man at 11.

Larry wants a big who can play and contribute this year. Ajinca has the best footwork of any 7'r, great length and athleticism, and can step back and nail the mid-range jumper, forcing defenders to take him seriously away from the post. The team believes he will be NBA ready by midseason."

-------
AND in a later post in that same thread.

"Inside information on the player highest on the Pacer's list for an immediate contributor, which apparantly is a big Bird priority. Ajinca also brings two important things to the table. One, is footwork - the team knows what plodding feet result in, as it's been core issue with Harrison's ability to avoid fouls in the NBA. Second, he adds a center presence that can run in O'Brien's system and hopefully allow O'Neal to finally play the 4-spot. Presence alone on the court, without improving the defense at all from last year, could lower points-against by about 4per game via blocks and changing shots. Combine that with whatever he can contribute offensively from the 5-spot (a position completely void of production last year), and the team goes from outside to inside the playoffs. Seems the team never will go the Boston route and tank a season to win 1-2 years out. The only issue is draft position, as 'bigs' are being valued relatively low this year, they feel they can get him later in the round. However, he is who they want.
Is there an official Workout list from the Pacers somewhere?

I could be wrong....but checking the Workout list from RealGM at http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_article/173/20080620/2008_nba_player_workout_list/, but I don't even think that Ajinca has worked out for the Pacers.

BlueNGold
06-21-2008, 11:53 PM
8 ) Lopez
9 ) Gordon

Who will likely be available when we pick?

I think there is a very good chance one these two will be available at #11. Odds are there will be at least one or two surprise picks in the top 10. I wouldn't mind either of these players and would take either over Augustin or Speights.

Edit: Ok, I see your correction....but there's still a great chance one of these guys slips.

Speed
06-22-2008, 12:04 AM
Is there an official Workout list from the Pacers somewhere?

I could be wrong....but checking the Workout list from RealGM at http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_article/173/20080620/2008_nba_player_workout_list/, but I don't even think that Ajinca has worked out for the Pacers.


Nope, or at least he's not listed as an interview on the Pacers.com site.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/draft_central_2008.html

I guess he had a really good Nike Hoop Summit this year, put on some muscle, he was early Bender thin before and he's still too thin at this moment. I've read he has really outplayed guys in workouts because he's used to playing against grown men for that last year in the French league and has been more physical than some of the 19 year old bigs out there. Ford I think has him at 20 now and said that may not be high enough. The dude looks like he is crazy long, so who knows.

CableKC
06-22-2008, 12:48 AM
I think there is a very good chance one these two will be available at #11. Odds are there will be at least one or two surprise picks in the top 10. I wouldn't mind either of these players and would take either over Augustin or Speights.
Looking at the top 5....I'm guessing that it's a foregone conclusion that Rose, Beasley, Mayo, Bayless and Love are gone....that would leave IMHO the Knicks, Clippers and ( possibly ) the Bobcats ( assuming that they somehow trade JRich or Gerald Wallace ) to possibly draft Westbrook or Gordon. From what I have been reading about the Bucks...they are looking at drafting a SF....so that would leave either Gallinari or Alexander for them. If Brook is available at the 10th spot.....the Nets will take him cuz they need more depth at the Frontcourt.

CableKC
06-22-2008, 12:51 AM
Nope, or at least he's not listed as an interview on the Pacers.com site.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/draft_central_2008.html

I guess he had a really good Nike Hoop Summit this year, put on some muscle, he was early Bender thin before and he's still too thin at this moment. I've read he has really outplayed guys in workouts because he's used to playing against grown men for that last year in the French league and has been more physical than some of the 19 year old bigs out there. Ford I think has him at 20 now and said that may not be high enough. The dude looks like he is crazy long, so who knows.
Still......from what I have read about him....he may have potential...but he isn't NBA ready. That doesn't fit Bird's MO for drafting.

Speed
06-22-2008, 09:20 AM
I was in the car listening to NBA draft stuff on ESPN radio, I think, yesterday.

They were talking about Kevin Love's post workout interview with Milwaukee I think.

They said Kevin would go over different players and say like-okay here is how I would handle an Al Jefferson and here are the disadvantages I have in that match up, here are some disadvantages that I would have and here is how I would minimize those advantages.

Kevin would like go through the league and tell them match ups and how to use him.

WOW, how can you not like that.....

Hicks
06-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I never go to Rats, well, I hadn't been there in months, but draft time is one of my favorite times, so I decided to take a look. I always think its funny/interesting to see the "insider" info. I don't believe it at all, he calls Harrison plodding, which I would say he's poor Bball IQ, but never slow for a big guy. And he talks about how the Tinsley and I think that is completely not true or even close. Otherwise its pretty well thought out, I think. I guess if the draft the Frenchman I'll eat every word. Anyway here's the post.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckForum&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3adb3f8cfb-fbf2-46a8-9949-2d94e2faab75Forum%3a35a45a0b-91c7-4df9-a234-b6cf42f94209Discussion%3adf262fe2-f9d7-47b8-966c-0e4ee017466e&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Parlez Vous Francais.....

"You better, Pacers will take Alexis Ajinca. Ideally, they're looking to move the 11th pick and draft him a little lower OR trade for a second 1st round pick under 20. But, if they can't swing either of the deals, he's still there man at 11.

Larry wants a big who can play and contribute this year. Ajinca has the best footwork of any 7'r, great length and athleticism, and can step back and nail the mid-range jumper, forcing defenders to take him seriously away from the post. The team believes he will be NBA ready by midseason."

-------
AND in a later post in that same thread.

"Inside information on the player highest on the Pacer's list for an immediate contributor, which apparantly is a big Bird priority. Ajinca also brings two important things to the table. One, is footwork - the team knows what plodding feet result in, as it's been core issue with Harrison's ability to avoid fouls in the NBA. Second, he adds a center presence that can run in O'Brien's system and hopefully allow O'Neal to finally play the 4-spot. Presence alone on the court, without improving the defense at all from last year, could lower points-against by about 4per game via blocks and changing shots. Combine that with whatever he can contribute offensively from the 5-spot (a position completely void of production last year), and the team goes from outside to inside the playoffs. Seems the team never will go the Boston route and tank a season to win 1-2 years out. The only issue is draft position, as 'bigs' are being valued relatively low this year, they feel they can get him later in the round. However, he is who they want.

That said, the draft board has Westbrook gone by the 11th. I think if he falls, the team will have to take him as they're in love with his overall size/stature and potential to contribute perimiter defense off the bench season 1. Should he fall, look for the Pacers to aggressively look to trade back into the 1st round to grab Ajinca.

Biggest "oh no - don't do that on the board"....Anthony Randolph. Don't let O'Brien draft, that's all I'm going to say.

Player on the trading block, Foster + name your favorite semi-valuable player you'd like to see gone.

Player not in as bad of a doghouse as you'd think - Tinsley. Verbal punishment in the press has been to motivate him, the team desperately wants/needs him to contribute. That said, he could just as easily be carrying Foster's bags to some other city if a deal for a veteran point guard emerges.

Player more in the doghouse than you'd expect - Granger. Team is laying hard on his faults, partially to light a fire under him to play defense and work within O'Brien's system to get other players involved, and partially to cut down his perceived value as ultimately they have to sign him long term at the end of the season. His agent is dressing up his public image because they sense it's a franchise weakness and thus makes for a stronger negotiating position with team. Trust me, there is a brewing confrontation on this front. Expect to here a lot of "I'd love to stay with this theam BUT...basketball is a business....type comments"."

So let me get this straight:

We want a center who's barely played (although I understand from DraftExpress he's a great pick IF he pans out), Tinsley isn't in the dog house, and Granger is more likely than previously thought to bail?

Just shoot me now...... or tell me this is just "DaSmash" with a new username, so I can wash this nonsense out of my brain.

owl
06-22-2008, 01:08 PM
I really like what I have seen of Ajinca. Great physical talent and desire and does not
back down from a challenge. If the Pacers picked him or Hibbert along with a guard
would make a great draft.