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JayRedd
04-18-2008, 12:47 PM
Is Lopez better than Hibbert?

Brook is much, much, much, much better.

His offensive post game is refined and he has excellent footwork and touch around the hoop. Hibbert is raw and not particularly polished in anything. Hibbert could have the better upside, however.

Naptown_Seth
04-18-2008, 12:56 PM
Is Lopez better than Hibbert?
:lol2:

Barring a massive suprise turnaround this isn't even close. Hibbert as a person seems great, very likeable and I wish him the best. But his draft stock should be running around pick 25, and only then because of size.

It's too bad, I expected much more this year. I'd probably chase Robin before Hibbert even.

Infinite MAN_force
04-18-2008, 01:56 PM
If we luck into the third pick I really hope we take Bayless instead of Lopez. I would rather trade foster or somebody for a later pick and nab his brother anyway. I don't think Lopez lives up to a top-5 pick.

Rajah Brown
04-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I caught some comments from Will Perdue on ESPN radio yesterday
a.m. He's been working out the Lopex twins out in Cali in recent
days helping them prep for upcoming workouts/camps, etc . He
said that while Brook is obviously better right now, he thinks
Robin has a higher upside. Fwiw...

Kofi
04-18-2008, 02:03 PM
Why is no one talking about Anthony Randolph out of LSU? Outside of Michael Beasley, no big man in the draft has more upside. I've seen him listed as a SF in the NBA, yet he's 6'11", 220 lb. and a very good shot blocker, so I'm not buying it. He's got a ton of skills and athleticism. He seems to be in the same mold as Chris Bosh/Brandan Wright with a hint of LaMarcus Aldridge.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7739/randolphld8.gif

croz24
04-18-2008, 02:03 PM
ugh...augustin would be a huge mistake guys...

Will Galen
04-18-2008, 02:20 PM
Why is no one talking about Anthony Randolph out of LSU? Outside of Michael Beasley, no big man in the draft has more upside. I've seen him listed as a SF in the NBA, yet he's 6'11", 220 lb. and a very good shot blocker, so I'm not buying it. He's got a ton of skills and athleticism. He seems to be in the same mold as Chris Bosh/Brandan Wright with a hint of LaMarcus Aldridge.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7739/randolphld8.gif

Probably because he'll be long gone before we pick.

Kofi
04-18-2008, 02:25 PM
Probably, but maybe not. ESPN has him 6th, NBADraft.net has him 8th, and DE has him 9th. If he impresses enough and he slips to the bottom of the top-10, moving up a couple of spots to land him is doable.

JayRedd
04-18-2008, 02:36 PM
I like Brook. Could see him being a really good pro.

But his college career does remind me quite a bit of Chris Mihm. I could see him turning out like that.

Hicks
04-18-2008, 02:54 PM
In that comparison, he has the lowest PPS, the far highest TOs and a much weaker FG%, that turns me off right off the bat.....

Major Cold
04-18-2008, 02:57 PM
I don't see it happening with Randolph. Once GM see him against real talent in workouts he might even go top 5. I like him better than Speights though.

Ibaka has the most upside than any foreign player.

I've semi followed him and he has had a lackluster year in Euro. He won't be able to come this season. So we would have to buy the pick.

Major Cold
04-18-2008, 02:58 PM
In that comparison, he has the lowest PPS, the far highest TOs and a much weaker FG%, that turns me off right off the bat.....


that is why I see him used as a 4 in the NBA. He had to do it all at LSU.

CableKC
04-18-2008, 03:42 PM
Sounds like another version of IKE to me.
Except that Ike is 3 inches shorter.....which is a huge difference when it comes to manning the paint and having any other Big Man shoot over you.

croz24
04-18-2008, 07:32 PM
If we luck into the third pick I really hope we take Bayless instead of Lopez. I would rather trade foster or somebody for a later pick and nab his brother anyway. I don't think Lopez lives up to a top-5 pick.

i agree about what we should do with that 3rd pick. i'd like to trade foster for somebody other than robin however. brook was a solid C at stanford but nothing spectacular and his ceiling just isn't very high. i'd want bayless or mayo with #3 or to trade back to 4-9 and take bpa...

Gamble1
04-20-2008, 01:17 AM
Except that Ike is 3 inches shorter.....which is a huge difference when it comes to manning the paint and having any other Big Man shoot over you.

You know its a bad arguement when you lie about a guys height. IKE is 6'8 with shoes and Speights is 6'10 with shoes. In all it doesn't matter to me because 6'10 is still short enough to get shot over. I don't think its a fair argument to say Speights is a commited to defense anyway.:-p

croz24
04-20-2008, 02:01 AM
if you look at some of my earlier posts on here, i've mentioned anthony randolph since the early weeks of the college season...i essentially rank the players as follows: rose, mayo, beasley, bayless, randolph as the top 5 players in this draft...

blanket
04-20-2008, 11:02 AM
if you look at some of my earlier posts on here, i've mentioned anthony randolph since the early weeks of the college season...i essentially rank the players as follows: rose, mayo, beasley, bayless, randolph as the top 5 players in this draft...

Yes, if we keep pick #11, I expect us to be picking either Randolph, Jordan or Love. Not all of them will be available still when we pick, but I expect at least 1 of them to be -- and my hope is that it's Randolph.

Young
04-20-2008, 03:37 PM
I haven't seen Randolph play.

However just based on draft profiles and what I know about the other bigs, I would not mind the Pacers picking Randolph.

This is from nbadraft.net

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/anthonyrandolph.html


Scores very well around the basket with a wide array of hooks and finger rolls. Being left handed enhances his effectiveness ...Causes mayhem crashing the glass, often following teammates shots with highlight one handed finishes ... Also shows solid vision and playmaking ability for teammates ... Has a lot of defensive potential. Blocks a ton of shots (2.3 pg) for a wing player due to his length, timing and explosiveness ...

These are some of the things that stick out at me.

I don't think that he is going to be an all star. However I think he can be a Rasheed Wallace type of play. Rasheed should probably be an all star but anyways I think that Randolph can be that type of player. A guy who sort of is the glue to his team.

The question is, can he bulk up enough to play power forward? He is very young for even a freshman, born 7/15/89, so maybe he can gain some strength.

idioteque
04-20-2008, 06:33 PM
Chris Douglas-Roberts declares for the draft.

<table class="tablehead statCont" style="width: 720px;" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="6">2007-08 STATS</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>APG</td><td>3P%</td><td>RPG</td><td>BPG</td><td>SPG</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>18.1</td><td>1.8</td><td>.413</td><td>4.1</td><td>0.5</td><td>1.2</td></tr></tbody></table>

I like this guy, from what I saw he is good at creating shots off the dribble but is a little Eric Gordan-esque sometimes when he takes the ball to the basket. He is much more athletic than Gordan however and is a pretty good shooter. What worried me about him was his body, he seems way too thin for the pro's at this point.

#11 for him would be a reach, but I like him as a sleeper in the draft.

Coop
04-20-2008, 06:56 PM
He is much more athletic than Gordan however and is a pretty good shooter.


Please tell me this was a typo. Gordon may not be the smartest or most mentally tough player in the world, but his athleticism is about as good as you will get in this draft.

Will Galen
04-20-2008, 06:57 PM
Chris Douglas-Roberts declares for the draft.

<table class="tablehead statCont" style="width: 720px;" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="6">2007-08 STATS</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>APG</td><td>3P%</td><td>RPG</td><td>BPG</td><td>SPG</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>18.1</td><td>1.8</td><td>.413</td><td>4.1</td><td>0.5</td><td>1.2</td></tr></tbody></table>

I like this guy, from what I saw he is good at creating shots off the dribble but is a little Eric Gordan-esque sometimes when he takes the ball to the basket. He is much more athletic than Gordan however and is a pretty good shooter. What worried me about him was his body, he seems way too thin for the pro's at this point. #11 for him would be a reach, but I like him as a sleeper in the draft.

Let me point out that his listed weight of 195 is what Reggie played at for years, and Reggie was an inch taller, so Reggie had to be thinner.

Of course there is the fact that Reggie was a catch and shoot guy and didn't take it to the basket like Roberts does.

Rajah Brown
04-20-2008, 09:35 PM
CDR= a (maybe really) poor man's Rip Hamilton.

Mr. Sobchak
04-21-2008, 08:18 PM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/04/21/osukoufos.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101

Koufos is entering the draft- interesting.

Either two things could happen:

1. Koufos could go mid lottery and push someone we want/need down to us.

2. We could draft Koufos and get a highly skilled big man and put him next to JO.

esabyrn333
04-21-2008, 11:05 PM
Kosta Koufos 7-0 252 C Ohio St. Fr. (http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/kostakoufos.html)

I think this guy sounds intreasting. He has the size and skills to become a nice low post player. I like the fact that he plays good man to man D. I think that would complment JO's week side D & shot blocking.

NBADRAFT.net Profile

NBA Comparison: Mehmet Okur
Strengths: To prepare for Ohio State, Kosta has developed a more aggressive style of play. He now has the ability to bang down low that he has somewhat lacked in the past. While being known as a player who is best when working in the high post from either elbow, he has displayed a solid game from the baseline recently, where he can turn over either shoulder to hit the baseline jumper. He has added a behind the back dribble move to his repertoire that isnít fully reliable yet, but will make him a little more dangerous when working from the top of the key nonetheless. His leadership has developed more and he is a reliable go to guy offensively in the post. Defensively, his post position is very good, so he shouldnít have too many problems with man-to-man defense at the next level.

Weaknesses: Kosta must get better at finishing at the rim after contact. He has great touch around the basket, but when he takes contact, his shot doesnít often find the basket. His timing is good on blocked shots, but donít expect him to be much of an intimidator with this skill in the NBA due to average to just above average athleticism. While his midrange shooting is excellent, he could stand to extend his range a little bit. If he could consistently hit the college three it would be an excellent weapon for him and his team.

Notes: Turned down a 5 million dollor offer from a Greek team to play professionally ...
Joshua Motenko - 8/8/2007
Strengths: A very skilled big man, Kosta shows the ability and desire to be a great passer from the post ... He is also comfortable putting the ball on the floor, but lacks the athleticism and foot speed to be too much of a threat off the dribble ... Although on the college level, he can take the ball off the dribble very effectively and ever from the top of the key He is an excellent free throw shooter, can hit the three ball, and has a nice midrange jumper ... Heís got great hands, decent post moves, and a consistent touch around the basket as well ... Heís a very smart person with a good sense of humor off the court as an honor roll student ... He has a good feel for the game on the court as well, and is very mobile for a 7 footer ... He is comfortable playing in the high post. He was measured with a 9í00Ē standing reach and a 7í4Ē wingspan.

Weaknesses: Kostaís straight court speed is good, but his foot speed is lacking ... He is not a great shot blocker as he lacks great explosiveness as well ... He uses his size well to rebound the ball, but shies away from contact occasionally, and is not a banger despite his size ... Must get more aggresive and stronger to play tougher inside ... Defensively he needs to improve considerably to play at the NBA level.

Gamble1
04-22-2008, 12:38 AM
To me he is better than Thabeet, Hibbert and Jordan as far as being NBA ready. He is however slow and his potential isn't as high as Jordan.

I wouldn't say his defense is to Robins level but he is clearly the 2nd best defender at the C that we could get. His lateral quickness just sucks. He more or less stays in front of his man just because he is smart and knows whats coming.

I did watch alot of OSU games this year and he does have range with his shot. He could very easily spread the floor for JO.

Still a reach at 11 just like Robin but a very safe pick.

Gamble1
04-22-2008, 12:56 AM
I wanted to say one more thing about Koufos.

He is an absolute nightmare for defending centers. Unlike Jeff Foster if he sees an open shot he takes it and makes it alot. He would be perfect for JOB's system. Okur "like" is probably the best description I could give him as well. He has a really good turn around jumper for a big man and a good basketball IQ.

Draftnets description of him not being as much of a banger is true. But he is much more of a banger than JOrdan, McGee or Thabeet.

It will be interesting where he will be projected at. Probably mid 1st.

DGPR
04-22-2008, 01:15 AM
Nbadraft.net currently has us slated to pick Bill Walker out of Kansas State in the second round. I don't think I'd be too terribly upset if this happened. I think getting more athletic at the guard positions would be a good idea.

rexnom
04-22-2008, 03:06 AM
I wanted to say one more thing about Koufos.

He is an absolute nightmare for defending centers. Unlike Jeff Foster if he sees an open shot he takes it and makes it alot. He would be perfect for JOB's system. Okur "like" is probably the best description I could give him as well. He has a really good turn around jumper for a big man and a good basketball IQ.

Draftnets description of him not being as much of a banger is true. But he is much more of a banger than JOrdan, McGee or Thabeet.

It will be interesting where he will be projected at. Probably mid 1st.
And unlike Okur, he's Greek and not Turkish... ;) Just kidding! Love ya Belli!

Major Cold
04-22-2008, 08:35 AM
CostaK should have stayed one more year. He only could have climbed the board.

I like him for the Pacers more than Love. Even though Love is a better talent imo. I really think we are drafting big. With that in mind there are more promising prospects in the front court, than in the back court with picks 11-20.

jmoney2584
04-22-2008, 02:58 PM
With an extra pick in the mid first round we could really come out solid from this draft. We should really look into that.

Naptown_Seth
04-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Man, I just didn't see it with Koufus at this point. Not impressed at all and I thought for sure he'd stay another year. To me he hasn't shown anything that he can do at the next level yet.

JMO.

Love CAN make those outlet passes in the NBA and since he already does all his work below the rim I don't see how that goes away at the next level. Far different that a guy like Hibbert who seemed to depend on his size to get it done at times.



If Bill Walker falls to the Pacers in the 2nd round I'll eat a hat. Not mine, I want to still wear those, but someone's hat. ;)

I've been the one talking about his attitude (Jack Jr) and I do think it's a factor, but at some point the talent level overshadows behavior that might tone down with age/environment. I didn't love Jackson's game, but I certainly liked parts of it and clearly he is NBA capable for 30+ minutes. So I'd take that with a 2nd round pick or even a mid-20s.

Of course mid 20s and I'd still want Rush instead. I like Lee and Weaver too, but not more than Walker when it comes to pure talent if not maturity.

Naptown_Seth
04-22-2008, 03:47 PM
I like Brook. Could see him being a really good pro.

But his college career does remind me quite a bit of Chris Mihm. I could see him turning out like that.
Agreed.


Randolph - I just didn't get to see him play so I have no comments on him. He wasn't even on my radar to watch based on projections back in December.


As I mentioned a few times, now that declarations are showing up the draft is thinning out a bit. With a guy like Thabeet leaning toward staying (and AJ Price too it seems), along with several others, the choices start getting a lot lighter by the mid-first. The Pacers will still get a shot at a solid player though, and you still might cherry pick into something nice if you get back in as we've discussed.

But it's not "the strongest draft ever" either. I think I have real confidence in 4 guys - Beasley, Rose, Bayless and Mayo. The rest might be more like Lopez=Mihm, etc.


I really hate the risk on Jordan. This team can't afford a Sene caliber risk.


If we luck into the third pick I really hope we take Bayless instead of Lopez.
Would that even be on the table at all? I just can't imagine that if you have #3 you don't take Bayless given the team's needs. Beasley over Bayless probably, despite attitude concerns, but Rose-Bayless are your top 2 hopes going into this draft.

croz24
04-22-2008, 05:43 PM
Man, I just didn't see it with Koufus at this point. Not impressed at all and I thought for sure he'd stay another year. To me he hasn't shown anything that he can do at the next level yet.

JMO.

Love CAN make those outlet passes in the NBA and since he already does all his work below the rim I don't see how that goes away at the next level. Far different that a guy like Hibbert who seemed to depend on his size to get it done at times.



If Bill Walker falls to the Pacers in the 2nd round I'll eat a hat. Not mine, I want to still wear those, but someone's hat. ;)

I've been the one talking about his attitude (Jack Jr) and I do think it's a factor, but at some point the talent level overshadows behavior that might tone down with age/environment. I didn't love Jackson's game, but I certainly liked parts of it and clearly he is NBA capable for 30+ minutes. So I'd take that with a 2nd round pick or even a mid-20s.

Of course mid 20s and I'd still want Rush instead. I like Lee and Weaver too, but not more than Walker when it comes to pure talent if not maturity.

i see you've been reading my pre-season posts about rush, walker, and lee ;-)

doubt koufus is in the nba next year. if he does leave o$u, it'll most likely be to europe as opposed to the nba. love's passing ability and smarts won't leave him, but he's too short, too fat, too unathletic to compete as a high-quality player at the next level. that's not somebody you draft at #11. if love falls to 20-25, sure i'd take him. but not any time before...

Gamble1
04-22-2008, 05:55 PM
i see you've been reading my pre-season posts about rush, walker, and lee ;-)

doubt koufus is in the nba next year. if he does leave o$u, it'll most likely be to europe as opposed to the nba. love's passing ability and smarts won't leave him, but he's too short, too fat, too unathletic to compete as a high-quality player at the next level. that's not somebody you draft at #11. if love falls to 20-25, sure i'd take him. but not any time before...

Thought Koufus had already been offered a 5 mil contract for europe and he left it. What makes you think he would change his mind other than more money?

I trust Koufus stats over say David H. becuase he doesn't have to rely on power. He is a center that fits better in JOB'S system than any of the ones that we currently have. I am not counting JO as a center.

I think Love will be better than you think. He certianly isn't going to be a defensive stopper but he won't be a liability either.

d_c
04-22-2008, 06:04 PM
love's passing ability and smarts won't leave him, but he's too short,

At least year's Jordan camp, Kyle Singler (Love's highschool rival) measured out at 6'9" with shoes. In most side by side pictures, Love is easily taller than him by at least an inch. So he's probably 6'10" in shoes.

Which has to make him at least 6'8" w/o shoes. I imagine he'll measure out close to 6'9" w/o shoes. Being tall enough won't be Love's problem.

croz24
04-22-2008, 06:54 PM
koufus would change his mind because believe it or not, his draft stock dropped after this past yr at o$u. started off strong to somewhat falter and lose name rec towards the end. he may have come to the realizatoin that europe would offer him the most $ and best chance to increase his value for the nba...

kevin love at 6'9 or 6'10 is too short imo, especially considering the position he's best suited for. today's nba power forwards would have wet dreams going up against a kevin love at pf. he just won't be able to keep up. kevin love at a legit 7ft is a top 5 pick. kevin love at 6'9 6'10 is a waste of draft pick unless that pick is btwn 20-25 as i stated...

Speed
04-22-2008, 08:18 PM
Does Love = Sabonis?

Robertmto
04-22-2008, 08:31 PM
Does Love = Sabonis?

a shorter, not as good of a passer version maybe

croz24
04-22-2008, 08:43 PM
lol was sabonis not 7'3? game wise sure...but height is a HUGE factor when it comes to love and how he'll pan out in the league...

Will Galen
04-22-2008, 09:26 PM
lol was sabonis not 7'3? game wise sure...but height is a HUGE factor when it comes to love and how he'll pan out in the league...

Sabonis didn't play in the NBA until he was well past his prime. There are some scouts that think in his prime he was the best center ever, and they've seen Wilt, Russell and Jabar.

If Love turns out just 90% as good as Sabonis he'll be an all star.

croz24
04-22-2008, 11:21 PM
Sabonis didn't play in the NBA until he was well past his prime. There are some scouts that think in his prime he was the best center ever, and they've seen Wilt, Russell and Jabar.

If Love turns out just 90% as good as Sabonis he'll be an all star.

oh i wasn't saying anything negative about sabonis at all...i understand very well he probably would have been a hof lock had he played his entire career in the nba...i'm laughing at the comparison between the two. one of the main reasons sabonis was so good is because of his 7'3" frame. love can never be so dominant for that very reason. he's a center traped in a short power forward's body...

Will Galen
04-22-2008, 11:41 PM
oh i wasn't saying anything negative about sabonis at all...

I knew that I was just adding my two cents.

Dece
04-22-2008, 11:58 PM
I think people put a little too much stock in height sometimes. I don't really have an inclination one way or another on the Love debate here, but I just want everyone to remember, 6'4-6" (depending on the source you use he varies 2 inches) PF Charles Barkley would be the best player on our team, easily, probably the second best Pacer ever, and even that would be argued by some people for him being the best.

The right player is the right player sometimes, height notwithstanding.

Anthem
04-23-2008, 12:36 AM
I think people put a little too much stock in height sometimes. I don't really have an inclination one way or another on the Love debate here, but I just want everyone to remember, 6'4-6" (depending on the source you use he varies 2 inches) PF Charles Barkley would be the best player on our team, easily, probably the second best Pacer ever, and even that would be argued by some people for him being the best.

The right player is the right player sometimes, height notwithstanding.
Chuck isn't in this draft.

Dece
04-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Like I said, I don't really care one way or the other, I'm not nearly informed enough (although I'd argue all the arm chair scouts here aren't either) I'm just saying, height isn't an end all be all physical characteristic.

Speed
04-23-2008, 08:02 AM
I don't know about Sabonis, just a question. I know his prime was overseas. I know he was effective after he came over as a super smart player, great passer, could hit a three, but ssssllllllllooooowwww as molasses.

I think Love could probably shoot from outside, he's very heady for a young player, but its a good point that 6 inches could make a big difference. Although Sabonis was really wide, big lower body and Love seems to have that make up as well.

I'm just trying to get my mind around where Love fits in the league and what he'd have to be like to be sucessful.

Typically, underheighted, somewhat average athletic guys don't fare well in the big boy league. We'll see, I keep getting the feeling he'll be with the Pacers.

Kofi
04-23-2008, 08:09 AM
Kevin Love will be a poor defender. Not exactly what we need.

Major Cold
04-23-2008, 08:48 AM
Kevin Love will be a poor defender. Not exactly what we need.

It is excessive to say that he would be a poor defender. Is Foster a poor defender? Love is not a dominating presence on the block. But he is not poor. Average at worst for those who have seen him play.

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 10:20 AM
When healthy, Foster is much more athletic than Love.
I suspect that Love will be a decent defender at the NBA
level due to his smarts, anticipation and proper positioning.
But he doesn't have the speed, agility or lateral quickness
that Foster does.

Plus, Jeff is a legit 6-11.

Speed
04-23-2008, 10:24 AM
When healthy, Foster is much more athletic than Love.
I suspect that Love will be a decent defender at the NBA
level due to his smarts, anticipation and proper positioning.
But he doesn't have the speed, agility or lateral quickness
that Foster does.

Plus, Jeff is a legit 6-11.


They say and I'd agree that he's a good defender, not in shot blocks or steals, but by contesting position and shots and anticipating moves. So I think he could be sound defensively. What you worry about is guys like JO shooting over him, I suppose. I think Love getting legit 3 point range would really make him valuable in today's NBA.

idioteque
04-23-2008, 10:29 AM
They say and I'd agree that he's a good defender, not in shot blocks or steals, but by contesting position and shots and anticipating moves. So I think he could be sound defensively. What you worry about is guys like JO shooting over him, I suppose. I think Love getting legit 3 point range would really make him valuable in today's NBA.

Troy Murphy has legit NBA three point range. I don't know much about Love, but after reading this conversation he sounds a lot like a future Troy Murphy: a big guy whose defense is average to suspect who has some range and can take it to the basket if he wants (see end of this year version of Murphy). Is Love=Troy or do you guys think he will be more or less talented?

Major Cold
04-23-2008, 10:38 AM
I agree with both of your assessments. Love will contest. The NBA level exploits defenses like Love. Most people he will defend will be able to shoot up and over him. But preventing the post pass is an intangible that Love posses. More athletic players will not be able to turn into him and drive past him as easy as some of you think. Love has quick hands. He slaps as you go up, like Karl Malone did (not saying he is Karl).

esabyrn333
04-23-2008, 10:49 AM
I think people put a little too much stock in height sometimes. I don't really have an inclination one way or another on the Love debate here, but I just want everyone to remember, 6'4-6" (depending on the source you use he varies 2 inches) PF Charles Barkley would be the best player on our team, easily, probably the second best Pacer ever, and even that would be argued by some people for him being the best.

The right player is the right player sometimes, height notwithstanding.

If DJ Augustine was 6' 3" he would be much higher on everyone's draft board also.

OakMoses
04-23-2008, 10:53 AM
This is interesting info from Chad Ford.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=HoopSummit-080418

I spoke with a member of the NBA's draft committee, the advisory group that both gives information to underclassmen who are trying to gauge their prospective draft positions and also decides who should and shouldn't be invited to the Orlando pre-draft camp.

The group is comprised of a number of veteran scouts along with a few representatives from the NBA. They met several weeks ago and compiled a list of potential draft placements for underclassmen. Insider obtained a copy of that list.


This is the information that college underclassmen, parents and coaches are getting if they call the NBA. The categories are broken into Lottery, Mid-First Round, Late-First Round, and Second Round.


<TABLE class="tablehead widetable" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=stathead style="BACKGROUND: #000"><TD colSpan=4>Prospective Draft Positions for Underclassmen</TD></TR><TR class=colhead vAlign=top><TD>Lottery</TD><TD>Mid-First Round</TD><TD>Late-First Round</TD><TD>Second Round</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>Michael Beasley (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19133)</TD><TD>Kevin Love (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19130)</TD><TD>Marreese Speights (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19161)</TD><TD>Ty Lawson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19034)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Derrick Rose (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19132)</TD><TD>DeAndre Jordan (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19136)</TD><TD>Darren Collison (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19079)</TD><TD>Bill Walker (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19077)</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>Blake Griffin (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19213)</TD><TD>Chase Budinger (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19026)</TD><TD>Robin Lopez (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19045)</TD><TD>Richard Hendrix (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18890)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Brook Lopez (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19042)</TD><TD>Darrell Arthur (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19062)</TD><TD>Chris Douglas-Roberts (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19166)</TD><TD>Trent Plaisted (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19029)</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>O.J. Mayo (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19129)</TD><TD>Donte Greene (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19135)</TD><TD>Earl Clark (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19050)</TD><TD>Tyler Smith (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19093)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Anthony Randolph (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19157)</TD><TD>JaVale McGee (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19227)</TD><TD>J.J. Hickson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19215)</TD><TD>Andrew Ogilvy (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19219)</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>Eric Gordon (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19131)</TD><TD>Joe Alexander (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19096)</TD><TD>Tyler Hansbrough (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18875)</TD><TD>Ryan Anderson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19084)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Jerryd Bayless (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19137)</TD><TD>Kosta Koufos (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19155)</TD><TD> </TD><TD>Wayne Ellington (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19032)</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>D.J. Augustin (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19083)</TD><TD>Hasheem Thabeet (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19024)</TD><TD> </TD><TD>Eric Maynor (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19124)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Russell Westbrook (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19241)</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>James Harden (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19221)</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- end table -->

Not discussed: Brandon Rush (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18881) and Sam Young (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19234)

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 11:01 AM
dc-

Hard telling wether Love will develop Murphy's range or not. He didn't
show it this year, but did toss in a handful of college 3's. In comparison
to other aspects of Murphy's game though, Love already has a vastly
superior post/back to the bucket game. And he also seems to have
much better playmaking skills as a very instinctive passer.

There's no doubt that's he gonna struggle with PF's like KG, Sheed,
Amare, etc. The key is probably that he'll need to play next to a C
who can defend and board really well (ala a Camby or the like).

OakMoses
04-23-2008, 11:08 AM
Troy Murphy has legit NBA three point range. I don't know much about Love, but after reading this conversation he sounds a lot like a future Troy Murphy: a big guy whose defense is average to suspect who has some range and can take it to the basket if he wants (see end of this year version of Murphy). Is Love=Troy or do you guys think he will be more or less talented?

Love actually shot a better 3pt % this season than Murphy did during any of his college seasons. I think Love will be a better defender than Troy for two reasons: He's stronger and he has better defensive footwork. They have similar athleticism, but Love has better fundamentals. Also, Love actually has a low post game where Troy has none. If you had a SF guard Love in the post, Love would eat him alive. Troy is terrible against smaller defenders.

Speed
04-23-2008, 01:09 PM
James Harden in the lottery? I haven't seen that anywhere, interesting.

I also wonder if Augustines stock will continue to drop just because of tangibles and could be had later, that would be a nice coup to acquire a late teen or early 20 and get Augustine and a big at 11.

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 01:42 PM
Speed-

Agreed. Snagging Augie + a young big would be a coup. Much as
I'd hate to see him go, I'd like to see us use Foster to aquire a
pick in the mid-upper-teens to facilitate it. I doubt Ike or Quis
would get it done.

Speed
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Speed-

Agreed. Snagging Augie + a young big would be a coup. Much as
I'd hate to see him go, I'd like to see us use Foster to aquire a
pick in the mid-upper-teens to facilitate it. I doubt Ike or Quis
would get it done.


Me too, I'd hate to use Foster, but realistically that is an attractive piece to a contender or someone who thinks they are close. It wouldn't be as bad to me if you can get a Foster type young guy in the second round, even like a Balkman would be great.

I also agree Quis and Ike probably won't do it, even though they supposedly had a deal for Ike last year in the early to mid 20s with Utah I think or there was also rumors of Houston.

esabyrn333
04-23-2008, 02:18 PM
Jeff to Phoniex for ATL's pick. I just don't know how they would make the salaries match.

Speed
04-23-2008, 02:28 PM
Jeff to Phoniex for ATL's pick. I just don't know how they would make the salaries match.

15 pick, right? That seems you'd have your pick of the BIG projects.

idioteque
04-23-2008, 02:34 PM
James Harden in the lottery? I haven't seen that anywhere, interesting.

I also wonder if Augustines stock will continue to drop just because of tangibles and could be had later, that would be a nice coup to acquire a late teen or early 20 and get Augustine and a big at 11.

I don't think that James Harden has declared for the draft. I thought he said that he was going back to school, but I can't find anything on the internet to confirm it either way.

Westbrooke is tantilizing close to being in our range to draft, but I think he will be gone one or two picks before us.

CableKC
04-23-2008, 02:40 PM
15 pick, right? That seems you'd have your pick of the BIG projects.
I would rather have Foster then whatever Big Man we can get at the 15th spot.

idioteque
04-23-2008, 02:43 PM
Jeff to Phoniex for ATL's pick. I just don't know how they would make the salaries match.

The only players that would make it work by themselves are Barbosa or Raja Bell, neither of which the Suns would give up for Jeff Foster.

That team is getting ancient really fast so barring some sort of shake up where they are able to trade for young talent, I think their pick is more or less untouchable. Foster isn't part of any sort of youth movement they can start down there after this season.

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 03:01 PM
Foster can opt-out at this point. Not saying he would, but it's a
possibility if a new, 3-4 yr deal is part of the situation.

GS could have some interest in him. Especially if we were willing
to take Foyle off their hands.

Jeff for Foyle + #13 ? Just tossing stuff against the wall...

Mr. Sobchak
04-23-2008, 03:12 PM
Foster can opt-out at this point. Not saying he would, but it's a
possibility if a new, 3-4 yr deal is part of the situation.

GS could have some interest in him. Especially if we were willing
to take Foyle off their hands.

Jeff for Foyle + #13 ? Just tossing stuff against the wall...


Foyle now plays for Orlando FYI...

CableKC
04-23-2008, 03:14 PM
Foster can opt-out at this point. Not saying he would, but it's a
possibility if a new, 3-4 yr deal is part of the situation.

GS could have some interest in him. Especially if we were willing
to take Foyle off their hands.

Jeff for Foyle + #13 ? Just tossing stuff against the wall...
Hoopshype has Foster's contract wrong.......he doesn't have a Player option in the 2008-2009 season. As for what his contract status is for the 2009-2010 season, can someone confirm for me what his contract status is?

Other then Hoopshype, is there another site that can give a better idea of his ( and other Players ) contract status?

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 03:14 PM
Doh ! That's what I get for using Hoopshype as a resource.

CableKC
04-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Foyle now plays for Orlando FYI...
The only problem with Foyle is that he has ZERO offensive game. He has "hands of Stone" but is a very good defensive, rebounding, shotblocking skills.

I have no problem with players with ZERO offensive skills but is a very solid defensive player like Foyle cuz he's one of those "Good Sportsmanship / Good for the neighborhood and Community" type players that is good for PR reasons....but I got a feeling that JO'B wouldn't play him that much cuz he's a offensive liability.

croz24
04-23-2008, 03:22 PM
Jeff to Phoniex for ATL's pick. I just don't know how they would make the salaries match.

i was proposing this prior to the shaq trade...imo phx should have gone after foster before o'neal. with jeff, phx retains marion and would have had a much better shot at advancing. jeff provides=rebounding, if not better, = if not better defense, and comes much cheaper...not sure they'd go after jeff now, but that trade should have gone through a couple months ago...

count55
04-23-2008, 03:23 PM
Foster can opt-out at this point. Not saying he would, but it's a
possibility if a new, 3-4 yr deal is part of the situation.

GS could have some interest in him. Especially if we were willing
to take Foyle off their hands.

Jeff for Foyle + #13 ? Just tossing stuff against the wall...


Foster cannot opt out. He does not have an option for the final year of his contract. Hoopshype has this wrong, but most other sites, including Shamsports has it correct. Andrew Perna also confirmed this through his sources with the Pacers.

esabyrn333
04-23-2008, 04:47 PM
D.J. Augustin Leaving Texas For NBA (http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/52126/20080423/dj_augustin_leaving_texas_for_nba/)

From Realgm.com

I know everyone thinks he would be a bad pick for us but I just really feel this is the best way to go if they think 11 is to high we need to trade down or acquire another pick in the first round. Other than nbadraft.net everyone has him going to us. I just hope we make it happen unless someone falls to us.

Hicks
04-23-2008, 05:00 PM
Almost everyone seems to think we'll take him, but I can't remember the last time a mock draft accurately predicted who the Pacers selected.

d_c
04-23-2008, 05:07 PM
Foster can opt-out at this point. Not saying he would, but it's a
possibility if a new, 3-4 yr deal is part of the situation.

GS could have some interest in him. Especially if we were willing
to take Foyle off their hands.

Jeff for Foyle + #13 ? Just tossing stuff against the wall...

3 reasons this can't happen.

The Warriors bought out Foyle and he plays for Orlando. A contract that's been bought out can no longer be traded.

The Warriors have the #14 pick, not #13.

What Foster does is duplicated by Biedrins. Biedrins will play 30 mins a night (and more when Nellie eventually retires) and you simply can't play two non-scoring threats like Biedrins and Foster at the same time. Just way too easy to defend for the opposing team.

CableKC
04-23-2008, 05:24 PM
3 reasons this can't happen.

The Warriors bought out Foyle and he plays for Orlando. A contract that's been bought out can no longer be traded.

The Warriors have the #14 pick, not #13.

What Foster does is duplicated by Biedrins. Biedrins will play 30 mins a night (and more when Nellie eventually retires) and you simply can't play two non-scoring threats like Biedrins and Foster at the same time. Just way too easy to defend for the opposing team.
Minor thing....but Foster does not equal Biedrins.

Biedrins is a decent Shotblocker and has a WAY BETTER offensive game and one of the better Finishers near the basket on that team along with Monte.

Both offer different facets to the game where Foster can probably better defend Big Men ( cuz of his frame ) and is a better Offensive Rebounder whereas Biedrins blocks a few more shots and can offer more on the offensive end.

Regardless, Foster would fit real well in Nellie's offense ( assuming that he's still there next season ) as a Rotational Big Man playing behind Biedrins and next to Wright.

Kofi
04-23-2008, 05:44 PM
I could definitely see Kevin Love becoming another Troy Murphy.

Here's a thought for the Kevin Lovers -

Love took 82 three-point attempts this past season. Troy Murphy averaged 64 three-point attempts per season in his three year college career. If that doesn't send a shiver down your spine, you're more man than I.

In fact, their freshamn production is very similar across the board. Their size would be very similar as well, if Kevin Love weren't 30 pounds overweight. You have to question the guys dedication and work ethic with all those excess pounds.

d_c
04-23-2008, 05:52 PM
I could definitely see Kevin Love becoming another Troy Murphy.

Here's a thought for the Kevin Lovers -


Kevin Love's game and his physical build are nothing like Troy Murphy. The only thing he and Murphy have in common are that they're both white. They're totally different types of basketball players.

Kofi
04-23-2008, 05:57 PM
Kevin Love's game and his physical build are nothing like Troy Murphy. The only thing he and Murphy have in common are that they're both white. They're totally different types of basketball players.

Actually, they were very similar in college. Least we forget Troy Murphy didn't become the 3 point chucker until his 4th year in the NBA.

And of course their builds are different. One is 30 pounds overweight, the other is not. That'll do it.

Gamble1
04-23-2008, 06:17 PM
You crack me up Kofi. Seriously, all Kevin Love has to do is lift his arms above his head and he is already a better defender than Troy.

You act like he is a bum and that he has no dedication to his craft. The mere fact that he is so polished offensively shoots your dedication argument down. ITs also not like he can't lose weight.

d_c
04-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Actually, they were very similar in college. Least we forget Troy Murphy didn't become the 3 point chucker until his 4th year in the NBA.

And of course their builds are different. One is 30 pounds overweight, the other is not. That'll do it.

One guy is actually a low post player. The other isn't, even after years of trying and putting on weight in the summer. Despite it all, Murphy still can't post up on a 6'5" guard.

One guy can hold his position down low, the other can't. Murphy simply lacks lower body strength and stamina.

One guys looks like he's going to be one of the best passing bigmen in the game. The other is a below average passer.

The reason Murphy became a 3 point chucker in the NBA is because the Warriors eventually figured out that he was never going to be a factor in the low post, no matter how much time he put in the weight room or how many protein shakes he consumed.

AesopRockOn
04-23-2008, 06:44 PM
Those other Memphis players declaring are pretty dumb.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/news/story?id=3363956

Kofi
04-23-2008, 06:47 PM
One guy is actually a low post player. The other isn't, even after years of trying and putting on weight in the summer. Despite it all, Murphy still can't post up on a 6'5" guard.

One guy can hold his position down low, the other can't. Murphy simply lacks lower body strength and stamina.

One guys looks like he's going to be one of the best passing bigmen in the game. The other is a below average passer.

The reason Murphy became a 3 point chucker in the NBA is because the Warriors eventually figured out that he was never going to be a factor in the low post, no matter how much time he put in the weight room or how many protein shakes he consumed.

Who's to say the same wont happen with Kevin Love? He's a nice low-post player in college, but he's also above average size and strength for an NCAA big man. He can bully people around. That wont be the case in the NBA. Does he have the skills to overcome it? Maybe, maybe not. Considering I also don't like his defensive potential, he's not exactly at the top of my wish list.

Troy Murphy's 2001 scouting report (http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/troymurphy.htm) sure does sound familiar....

Or how about this thread (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=18836)? Replace the name Troy Murphy with Kevin Love and it would be valid today.

Gamble1
04-23-2008, 06:48 PM
Those other Memphis players declaring are pretty dumb.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/news/story?id=3363956

Thats why they didn't sign with an agent. Sort of a practice round for next years draft. Pretty smart actually.

d_c
04-23-2008, 06:57 PM
Who's to say the same wont happen with Kevin Love? .

Love physically has a very different build. He's able to hold position. He's got a strong lower body. Murphy has what a Warrior fan called a long time ago a "skinny-fat" body. He's 240+ Lbs, but just not that strong despite the fact.

And that's to say nothing about how much better a passer he is than Murphy.

I'm not saying Love is the next great thing or that the Pacers absolutely should draft the guy if he's available. If he and Westbrook were both there for the Pacers, Westbrook would probably be a better pick. I'm just saying that he's absolutely nothing like Troy Murphy. They're both tall and white and that's about the only things they have in common. Totally different types of games.

I know this because I actually watch games and how invididual players play in the context of those games. I don't just go by stat lines and reports from NBADraft.net, who once made Dale Ellis the NBA comparison for Monta Ellis.

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/montaellis.asp

If you were around to watch Dale Ellis, you'd know that Dale and Monta weren't even close to being close to being the same type of player.

Gamble1
04-23-2008, 07:07 PM
Hey Kofi. Are you still digging or should we wait alittle longer. :sleep:

Kofi
04-23-2008, 07:07 PM
Love physically has a very different build. He's able to hold position. He's got a strong lower body. Murphy has what a Warrior fan called a long time ago a "skinny-fat" body. He's 240+ Lbs, but just not that strong despite the fact.

And that's to say nothing about how much better a passer he is than Murphy.

I'm not saying Love is the next great thing or that the Pacers absolutely should draft the guy if he's available. If he and Westbrook were both there for the Pacers, Westbrook would probably be a better pick. I'm just saying that he's absolutely nothing like Troy Murphy. They're both tall and white and that's about the only things they have in common. Totally different types of games.

I know this because I actually watch games and how invididual players play in the context of those games. I don't just go by stat lines and reports from NBADraft.net, who once made Dale Ellis the NBA comparison for Monta Ellis.

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/montaellis.asp

If you were around to watch Dale Ellis, you'd know that Dale and Monta weren't even close to being close to being the same type of player.

People make mistakes. Why should your opinion hold any more weight than those that dedicate most of their life to scouting?

Love is undersized and overweight. Not a recipe for success in the NBA, especially not for low-post players. He may be forced to rely on jump shots. Sounds familiar.

d_c
04-23-2008, 07:16 PM
People make mistakes. Why should your opinion hold any more weight than those that dedicate most of their life to scouting?

Love is undersized and overweight. Not a recipe for success in the NBA, especially not for low-post players.

Most guys from NBAdraft don't scout for a living. They're fans like us. They do these reports for fun. The aren't pro scouts. Now if you still put all kinds of stock into their reporting, see which NBA player they compared Love to. Hint: it's not Troy Murphy.

Love is probably going to measure out at somewhere between 6'8" and 6'9" without shoes. If that happens, he' not undersized. That's right in the range of what guys like Amare, Drew Gooden, Al Horford and Brandan Wright measured out at. If Love measures out at under 6'8" without shoes, then I'd call him undersized, but I don't thik that's going to be the case.

Gamble1
04-23-2008, 07:19 PM
Hmmm. Every heard of a bank shot or a hook shot to get an edge.

Look! Tim Freaking Duncan uses his jump shot to get by.

ITs funny becuase those scouts you just talked about have a good impression of Love that is why he is going early in the draft.

Kofi
04-23-2008, 07:37 PM
Most guys from NBAdraft don't scout for a living. They're fans like us. They do these reports for fun. The aren't pro scouts. Now if you still put all kinds of stock into their reporting, see which NBA player they compared Love to. Hint: it's not Troy Murphy.

Love is probably going to measure out at somewhere between 6'8" and 6'9" without shoes. If that happens, he' not undersized. That's right in the range of what guys like Amare, Drew Gooden, Al Horford and Brandan Wright measured out at. If Love measures out at under 6'8" without shoes, then I'd call him undersized, but I don't thik that's going to be the case.

And who did those same scouts compare Troy Murphy to? Hint: it's not Stan Love.

I'll believe the height when the measurements are done in June. Until then, I'm predicting just over 6'7" barefoot, 6'8.5" in shoes.

d_c
04-23-2008, 08:33 PM
And who did those same scouts compare Troy Murphy to? Hint: it's not Stan Love.

I'll believe the height when the measurements are done in June. Until then, I'm predicting just over 6'7" barefoot, 6'8.5" in shoes.


So far, you and maybe somebody else in this thread have compared Love to Murphy and that's it. Neither NBADraft or Draftexpress or any other publication has made that comparison. That's all I'm saying, not that I would take any of NBADraft's player comparisons seriously, because a lot of them are just plain garbage.

And again, I'm not saying Love is some surefire prospect that is guaranteed to succeed in the NBA, just that his style of play and approach to the game are completely different from Murphy's. They play absolutely nothing alike.

Kyle Singler (Love's HS rival) measured out last year at 6'9" in shoes at last year's Nike hoop summitt according to draftexpress.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2008-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Official-Measurements,-plus-2007-Analysis/

In all the pictures of them next to eachother, Love is taller than Singler, like this one for example
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/highschool/06/18/looking.back/p1_singler.jpg



Now if that Singler measurement was accurate, that would probably make Love about 6'10" in shoes, which means somewhere close to 6'9" without shoes. Whatever Love's problems will be in the NBA, height won't be one of them.

Rajah Brown
04-23-2008, 09:37 PM
Kofi-

Love is 19. That's 1-9, as in still a kid. Murphy will be 28 in a
couple weeks. He's a fully mature adult.

I suppose it's possible that Love will always be 'fat'. But given
that he's got another several years to physically mature, it's
more likely that he won't.

Kofi
04-24-2008, 05:35 AM
Kofi-

Love is 19. That's 1-9, as in still a kid. Murphy will be 28 in a
couple weeks. He's a fully mature adult.

I suppose it's possible that Love will always be 'fat'. But given
that he's got another several years to physically mature, it's
more likely that he won't.

Why make excuses for him? He shouldn't be "fat" in the first place. He needs to show some dedication and self-discipline.

Kofi
04-24-2008, 05:47 AM
So far, you and maybe somebody else in this thread have compared Love to Murphy and that's it. Neither NBADraft or Draftexpress or any other publication has made that comparison. That's all I'm saying, not that I would take any of NBADraft's player comparisons seriously, because a lot of them are just plain garbage.

And again, I'm not saying Love is some surefire prospect that is guaranteed to succeed in the NBA, just that his style of play and approach to the game are completely different from Murphy's. They play absolutely nothing alike.

Kyle Singler (Love's HS rival) measured out last year at 6'9" in shoes at last year's Nike hoop summitt according to draftexpress.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2008-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Official-Measurements,-plus-2007-Analysis/

In all the pictures of them next to eachother, Love is taller than Singler, like this one for example
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/highschool/06/18/looking.back/p1_singler.jpg


Now if that Singler measurement was accurate, that would probably make Love about 6'10" in shoes, which means somewhere close to 6'9" without shoes. Whatever Love's problems will be in the NBA, height won't be one of them.

You're problem is you're comparing NCAA Love to NBA Murphy. You're forgetting that Murphy spent plenty of time in the paint at Notre Dame, and only became the soft jump shooter he is now once it became clear that he couldn't hack it down low in the NBA. I have a sneaking suspicion the same will be true of Kevin Love.

As for his size - I'll believe it when I see it. I actually watch the games, so pictures aren't enough evidence for me.

Rajah Brown
04-24-2008, 06:49 AM
Kofi-

Ok, I hear ya. What was I thinking. Kids who are chunky at 19
like say, a kid named Barkley never amount to anything in the NBA !

Byw, I'm not lobbying for Love. I don't really think he'd be all
that good a fit in O'B's system. Just trying to provide a rational
counter-balance to your commentary.

Kofi
04-24-2008, 07:02 AM
Kofi-

Ok, I hear ya. What was I thinking. Kids who are chunky at 19
like say, a kid named Barkley never amount to anything in the NBA !

Byw, I'm not lobbying for Love. I don't really think he'd be all
that good a fit in O'B's system. Just trying to provide a rational
counter-balance to your commentary.

Barkley was a freak athlete, even with an excess 25 pounds. If Barkley had the self-discipline of Karl Malone, he might have a championship ring today. Think about how good Barkley could've been with a better body (no homo). How much quicker, stronger, and more agile he could've been with 25 less pounds of fat and say, 10 more pounds of muscle.

Hicks
04-24-2008, 10:17 AM
As for his size - I'll believe it when I see it. I actually watch the games, so pictures aren't enough evidence for me.

.....

Kofi
04-24-2008, 10:51 AM
Going by pictures...

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4702/egrq5.jpg

There's Derrick Rose, who measured in at 6'3.5" in shoes. Going by this photo, Gordon is a legit 6'5", thus I'd be all for taking him if he's available, or even moving up to land him.

croz24
04-24-2008, 10:56 AM
jason thompson > kevin love ;-)

owl
04-24-2008, 10:59 AM
If Kevin Love is available I think they should take him.

Will Galen
04-24-2008, 11:08 AM
One other thing it occurred to me that you guys could be missing. We're talking about 19 and 20 year olds, we know they will fill out but they could see grow taller too.

Major Cold
04-24-2008, 11:17 AM
As for his size - I'll believe it when I see it. I actually watch the games, so pictures aren't enough evidence for me.
.


:spitout::banghead::disturbed:shout::shrug:

Speed
04-24-2008, 11:37 AM
Kofi-

Ok, I hear ya. What was I thinking. Kids who are chunky at 19
like say, a kid named Barkley never amount to anything in the NBA !

Byw, I'm not lobbying for Love. I don't really think he'd be all
that good a fit in O'B's system. Just trying to provide a rational
counter-balance to your commentary.


Chunky at 19 can mean a life as Baby Huey or it could mean he can pack on a ridiculous amount of mucsle as he matures. Who knows.

Speed
04-24-2008, 11:38 AM
:spitout::banghead::disturbed:shout::shrug:

Measurements don't mean anything to me, either, I go by meeting the guy hanging out and having a pizza, thats only real way to know if he's really tall. :rolleyes:

Gamble1
04-24-2008, 11:49 AM
Forget it guys. ITs like trying to convince Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race or President Bush that the economy is in a recession.

Brick walls are more reasonable.

Kofi
04-24-2008, 11:59 AM
We'll find out in less than 2 months. My final guess - 6'8" barefoot, 6'9" in shoes.

Anyways, I'm done arguing about it.

Gamble1
04-24-2008, 12:00 PM
As for his size - I'll believe it when I see it. I actually watch the games, so pictures aren't enough evidence for me.

What do you think this is the making of the Lord of The Rings. This isn't photoshoped to mislead everyone.

Rajah Brown
04-24-2008, 01:29 PM
I say we just await Kenny Main's official opinion on Love. If he
says 'he's tall', that's good enough for me. If not, we move on.

d_c
04-24-2008, 02:07 PM
You're problem is you're comparing NCAA Love to NBA Murphy. You're forgetting that Murphy spent plenty of time in the paint at Notre Dame, and only became the soft jump shooter he is now once it became clear that he couldn't hack it down low in the NBA. I have a sneaking suspicion the same will be true of Kevin Love.

As for his size - I'll believe it when I see it. I actually watch the games, so pictures aren't enough evidence for me.

Murphy was a mid-range/slash guy in college much as he is now in the NBA, with the exception that he now shoots the NBA 3 and he's not as quick as he once was due to injuries and being bulked up. He was never a guy who could back down a smaller player and throw up a simple hook. Love is.

And even if Love can't play inside like he did in college, his ability as a passer at the top of the key automatically gives him a different look than Murphy, who really isn't much of a passer.

I'm just giving you evidence that the guy is taller than you think. If you don't think that's enough evidence, then that's you. But it's two guys pretty much standing side by side from the same perspective. This isn't some advanced science.

BTW, if Eric Gordon measures out at 6'5" with shoes on, that wouldn't surprise me at all. That means he's probably somewhere around 6'3.5" w/o shoes. A very reasonable estimate if you ask me.

indyblue47
04-24-2008, 02:59 PM
At NBADRAFT.net, they have us taking:

11. Indiana
JaVale McGee 7-0 237 C Nevada So.


Has anyone watched this kid play? A 7 footer sounds good!!



http://www.nbadraft.net/

Gamble1
04-24-2008, 03:15 PM
Go look at some you-tube. He nothing but potential and thats about it. If you read all thats on him you won't think he deserves our pick. He is the biggest project 7'0 in the draft, except for the eastern europe kid.

If Larry is going to keep with the "winning now" philosophy he won't draft McGee.

Jonathan
04-24-2008, 03:25 PM
It will be very interesting to see who the Pacers pick up with their second round pick this year. Do we go Euro? (Jawai/Petro) Wait for a guy to develop overseas. Do we go w/ a player that can immediately play in the league (Hudson/DJ White/Joey Dorsey/Kyle Weaver)
I really believe either Danillo or EJ will be available for any team w/ the 11th pick.

esabyrn333
04-24-2008, 03:45 PM
I would be happy with EJ and DJ as our draft picks this year. :buddies:

Major Cold
04-25-2008, 09:54 AM
I really think we need a contribotor in the second round.

Carl Landry/ Milsap is we draft a guard in the first round.

or

Daniel Gibson (different skill set) or Alston

Don't get me wrong I want a Boozer, Redd, and Arenas...But that is a one in 96 chance of happening.

Jonathan
04-25-2008, 10:05 AM
I would be happy with EJ and DJ as our draft picks this year. :buddies:

If EJ does slip to the Pacers & we have the 11th pick. We must draft him is the thought b/c Simon's are business men. They make more money by putting people in the stands. EJ will put people in the seats next year & the year after that as well. Larry Bird might not want EJ; but w/ The Simons having more control we will draft him at 11 if he slips to us.

As far as DJ; he is in the following pack of players Courtney Lee, Lester Hudson, Jawai, Pekovich, JR Giddeons, Joey Dorsey, Kyle Weaver, & JJ Hickson. Some of these players may go late first round and several will be gone by the time we draft 41st but one of them should slip to the Pacers.

That is the whole thing with picking late lottery; players slip but we do not know who will untill the draft in June.

Jonathan
04-25-2008, 10:09 AM
I really think we need a contribotor in the second round.

Carl Landry/ Milsap is we draft a guard in the first round.

or

Daniel Gibson (different skill set) or Alston

Don't get me wrong I want a Boozer, Redd, and Arenas...But that is a one in 96 chance of happening.

So we do not draft a Jawai or Pekovich. You know their will be a very good player that can/will contribute. Do you see us drafting a SF/SG ie Bill Walker, Kyle Weaver, or JR Giddeons. It will be interesting to see if we draft the best available or go big.

Major Cold
04-25-2008, 10:26 AM
I like Walker because he can guard the two with dominance at times. Weaver as well. But if we draft Walker and have Granger, Dun, and Shawne it would appear to be a log jam. SG/SF is a wing in this system. Defensively is a different story. That is why I like Walker then Weaver. If do not pick up a true PG and count on Tins once again...Then Weaver can back up Diener when Tins goes down. But with similar if not worse production than Flip did at the end of the year.

MyFavMartin
04-25-2008, 10:51 AM
If EJ does slip to the Pacers & we have the 11th pick. We must draft him is the thought b/c Simon's are business men. They make more money by putting people in the stands. EJ will put people in the seats next year & the year after that as well. Larry Bird might not want EJ; but w/ The Simons having more control we will draft him at 11 if he slips to us.

As far as DJ; he is in the following pack of players Courtney Lee, Lester Hudson, Jawai, Pekovich, JR Giddeons, Joey Dorsey, Kyle Weaver, & JJ Hickson. Some of these players may go late first round and several will be gone by the time we draft 41st but one of them should slip to the Pacers.

That is the whole thing with picking late lottery; players slip but we do not know who will untill the draft in June.

I would be picking EJ at #11 for the fact that he is a top 6-7 pick that slipped to #11, not for the fact that he's a Hoosier. If the Simons were interested in only doing what the people of Indiana wanted, we never would have had the greatest Pacer of all time (Reggie Miller) because we would have picked Steve Alford.

How'd Damon Bailey work out?

Major Cold
04-25-2008, 10:53 AM
Bailey was a 2nd rounder. Not much of an expextation with him. Two years later he showed up at a high school party trying to get some tail.

MyFavMartin
04-25-2008, 11:11 AM
I like Walker because he can guard the two with dominance at times. Weaver as well. But if we draft Walker and have Granger, Dun, and Shawne it would appear to be a log jam. SG/SF is a wing in this system. Defensively is a different story. That is why I like Walker then Weaver. If do not pick up a true PG and count on Tins once again...Then Weaver can back up Diener when Tins goes down. But with similar if not worse production than Flip did at the end of the year.

If people don't like Mayo due to off-court issues, do you think the same people would have problems with Walker?

Walker shot 30% from 3PT, which is a concern. Most other facets of his game are good, including shot creation and defense, which this team needs badly. Might have knee concerns but Granger supposedly did too. Appears to be fully recovered.

All in all, it would appear Walker would be a very good 2nd round pick and would qualify as a BPA.

I think a lot of 2nd round picks will be easily obtained through the draft with rosters being very full. Trailblazers have #4 and #5 of the second round. Walker is projected higher than the Pacers pick. Picking up these picks from Portland shouldn't take much and could land us both Walker and DJ White. This combined with a Westbrook would make me happy. Getting another pick for Speights, Arthur, or CDR, would make me cry for joy.

Would like to resign Rush. Think his performance wained due to his hip injury, which people tend to ignore or forget.

MyFavMartin
04-25-2008, 11:12 AM
Two years later he showed up at a high school party trying to get some tail.

The one hosted by Jack Trudeau? :D

Jonathan
04-25-2008, 11:14 AM
When Damon Bailey was drafted, I believe the draft was held in Indianapolis. That gave the people something to cheer for that stayed around several hours to watch the the thing. He was drafted before the International Player Frenzy came to the NBA.
The point I am making is as follows w/ The Simon's taking a more hands on approach I feel that the Pacers are going to go the more business route and that is trying to get more people in the seats. The majority of our fans are sick of the Pacers tarnished image and with EJ on the roster he will be the face of our organization's marketing campaign.
The Pacers were never going to draft Alford over Reggie.

CableKC
04-25-2008, 11:33 AM
I like Walker because he can guard the two with dominance at times. Weaver as well. But if we draft Walker and have Granger, Dun, and Shawne it would appear to be a log jam. SG/SF is a wing in this system. Defensively is a different story. That is why I like Walker then Weaver. If do not pick up a true PG and count on Tins once again...Then Weaver can back up Diener when Tins goes down. But with similar if not worse production than Flip did at the end of the year.
I would take Weaver's defense over Flips TO-prone-fancy-dribbling any day.

MyFavMartin
04-25-2008, 11:43 AM
When Damon Bailey was drafted, I believe the draft was held in Indianapolis. That gave the people something to cheer for that stayed around several hours to watch the the thing. He was drafted before the International Player Frenzy came to the NBA.
The point I am making is as follows w/ The Simon's taking a more hands on approach I feel that the Pacers are going to go the more business route and that is trying to get more people in the seats. The majority of our fans are sick of the Pacers tarnished image and with EJ on the roster he will be the face of our organization's marketing campaign.
The Pacers were never going to draft Alford over Reggie.

Winning fixes a lot of things.

I think most people saw the Bailey thing as a PR move and saw through it. Yes, it was a nice thing to do.

And lastly, I don't think EJ will be there at #11. This team needs to address their needs at PG at #11 if this is possible and they don't reach.

Bird is still in charge of basketball operations, which means the draft. God help us if Simon is picking players.

Major Cold
04-25-2008, 12:01 PM
it was at my high school. It was sad and pathedic. Now he is fat and lazy.

I think we will draft the best possible prospect.

Shade
04-25-2008, 12:05 PM
I think Mario Chalmers is the guy. If he decides to declare, he could probably be had with a late first-rounder.

He's almost exactly what we need; an excellent defensive guard with clutch tendencies. He's not a pure PG, but I think he could handle the role adequately.

I'd like to trade into a late first and take Chalmers. We could then take a big (Love? definitely NOT Thabeet) with the #11, and DJ with our second-rounder.

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 12:36 PM
Beware of the Tourny clutch performance. Do you actually think he he can improve as a pg. I thought he was TO proned.

I would much rather have LOVe than chalmers and Lopez over chalmers as well.

Major Cold
04-25-2008, 12:42 PM
I would do that is we can't get Westbrook. I really do not want Love for this team. I would take Speights before I take him.

AesopRockOn
04-25-2008, 12:47 PM
I think we should draft Stanko again. :grinyes:

Shade
04-25-2008, 01:00 PM
Beware of the Tourny clutch performance. Do you actually think he he can improve as a pg. I thought he was TO proned.

I would much rather have LOVe than chalmers and Lopez over chalmers as well.

I absolutely believe he can improve. And he's an excellent defender, which we sorely need in the backcourt.

Chalmers isn't going to go high enough to conflict with drafting either Love or Lopez (I don't see the love-affair with Robin or Thabeet, honestly).

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 01:05 PM
I think we should draft Stanko again. :grinyes:

Be careful for what you wish for. Draft Express has us taking Nikola Pekovic .

Pekovic blossomed this season into one of the most productive inside men all over Europe, which combined with his youth, made him one of the most attractive players on the European market. Rumors say he was paid as much as 4.5 million Euros (6.55 million dollars net) for three years, which is similar to the type of money this yearís #1 overall pick will receive in gross terms. This move is a clear statement by the player towards a future in the European scene for the mid-term. He hasnít even waited for the NBA draft to evaluate his options at the American league. In the end, this is certainly a hit to his draft stock. Since any team drafting him in the end of the first round will likely never see him step foot on an NBA court (because of the extremely limiting rookie scale (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_exhibits/exhibitB.php)), itís much more likely that he goes in the 2nd round now.

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 01:10 PM
I absolutely believe he can improve. And he's an excellent defender, which we sorely need in the backcourt.

Chalmers isn't going to go high enough to conflict with drafting either Love or Lopez (I don't see the love-affair with Robin or Thabeet, honestly).

Its not exactly a Love affair, more of building for when JO isn't here. Chalmers is a good defender but if he doesn't develop into a pg than he is just an undersized sg.

I like Robin just because he is the best defender in the post for this draft.

CableKC
04-25-2008, 02:43 PM
I've mentioned him before....but I wouldn't mind either drafting Marcus Dove as a 2nd round pick ( assuming that we pick up another 2nd round pick ) or ( at the very least ) invite him to training camp. He's purely a Perimeter defender specialist roleplayer that is better suited to guard bigger SG / stronger SF / undersized jumpshooting PFs. I think that he would be best suited to handle the Lebron's, Marion and Paul Pierce type of scoring GFs then the smaller and quicker PG/SGs like Rip or Wade.

DraftExpress Profile for Marcus Dove (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marcus-Dove-1084/)


From DraftExpress.com
Written by Joey Whelan

We last looked at Marcus Dove back in October, when we had an opportunity to analyze the entirety of his junior season. Two things were very apparent about the senior at that point: he was one of the best overall defensive players in the country, and he was a non-existent offensive factor. With a little more than half of his senior campaign under his belt, not much has changed defensively, Dove is still a force; but we have begun to see some decent progress on the offensive side of the ball.

The biggest change in Doveís play this year has been his level of aggressiveness with the basketball. Previously he was resigned to screen for teammates and to serve as a safety valve if the offense became stagnant, as a result, Dove attempted just over three shots a game and he was very predictable with the ball. The senior has become much more of a scoring threat this year, though, thanks to the work he put in in the offseason, and his increased inclination to attack with the ball. Dove has more than doubled his scoring average from 4.7 a year ago to 10.4 this season, and while his shooting percentage has dropped from 58% to 45%, this is directly related to the senior now taking over eight shots per game.

Perhaps the biggest knock against Dove throughout his career has been his poor ball-handling skills. While he shows great quickness for a player his size, he rarely can beat defenders off the dribble due to the lack of comfort he has handling the basketball. Once in a while, he will be able to take a slower frontcourt player to the basket, but only if he has a straight line to the hoop. Dove certainly hasnít shown a drastic improvement in his dribbling skills this season (his turnovers have actually increased slightly), but he has added a spin move to his arsenal when attacking the basket that allows him to get closer to the rim while on the move. In the past, he was often forced to pull up and elevate over defenders for very difficult, off balance shots, but now through hard work Dove has added this spin move and a jump hook which he finishes with a fair amount of consistency. With his length and pretty good leaping ability, this is a tough move for most defenders to stop either because of a size or quickness mismatch for Dove.

Dove has also improved his touch around the basket. He seems to have spent a decent amount of time in the off-season working on his mid-range game, and while he hasnít shown a lot of ability to pull up and shoot off the dribble, Dove is now able to elevate and finish the occasional runner in the lane when he canít get his spin move off. He is also showing an improvement in his body control when he gets into the lane. While in the past, Dove would merely throw up an awkward shot when heavily contested by defenders, from time to time now he shows the ability to maneuver around opponents to get a better shot off.

While there have been some gradual and subtle improvements to Doveís game, there is still a tremendous amount to be desired from an NBA scoutís standpoint. Dove is not a perimeter shooting threat, while his percentage has improved this year, he still lacks ideal mechanics. His release is long and slow, and as a result his release point isnít consistent. This also means he needs a fair amount of room to get his shot off, and since he is solely a catch and shoot player beyond the arc, he doesnít get a lot of looks. Dove also still needs to improve his ability to create shot opportunities for himself. He still isnít a threat to pull up off the dribble, and when he does put the ball on the floor it almost a guarantee he is driving right to the basket. Dove has a pretty good back to the basket game for a player primarily out on the perimeter, but at this point his only real move is his jump hook, which he hasnít even perfected yet. At the next level where he often might have the opportunity to take smaller players into the paint with his back to the hoop, Dove will need to further develop this part of his game to be an inside and outside threat.

Defensively, Dove is still a standout. He is able to guard both small forwards and power forwards, proving to be effective against both kinds of players. His length combined with his quickness and aggressiveness makes him a headache for perimeter players; his great anticipation and quick hands have also led to more than two steals per game for Dove. Where he has made some improvements on the defensive side of the ball have been with his physical abilities. At just 215, Dove is fairly thin, and while he hasnít bulked up much since last season, it is apparent that he has gotten stronger. Bigger post players in the past have been able to back him down with a fair amount of ease, forcing Dove to rely on his timing to alter or block shots. From what weíve seen this season, though, he is able to hold his ground a little better against stronger players. While bigger bodies (like Blake Griffin on Monday night) will still be able to push Dove around, he is making it harder on opponents than in seasons past.

The increased offensive output this season can only help Dove. He was already considered an intriguing prospect simply because of his athletic frame and strong defensive abilities. At the next level, he will likely be asked to guard small forwards and hybrid power forwards (ala Travis Outlaw, Tyrus Thomas, Shawn Marion), a task he should be able to handle. While he by no means at this point shows the ability to be a consistent scoring option in the NBA, the strides he is making this season are certainly encouraging. Adding a consistent spot-up jumper from the corner (think Bruce Bowen) might be all that it takes now to keep him in the league for years to come. While Oklahoma Stateís play so far will likely keep Dove from showcasing his abilities in the NCAA Tournament, he will get the opportunity to do so at events like the Portsmouth Invitational and the NBA Pre-Draft camp in May.

It's not written here, but he did have an off-the-court drunken driving incident sometime in the 2007 season, but that appears to be an isolated incident. I see him as another Trenton Hassell type perimeter Defending Role-Player. He shouldn't be counted on to score but to provide solid perimeter defense....especially against bigger and strong SFs. I think he's worth a look.

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 03:38 PM
Seems like a taller/better version of Jamison Brewer. It wouldn't hurt to have a sic'em guy that could develop into a role player.

Kofi
04-25-2008, 04:07 PM
UNC's Hansbrough To Return; Lawson, Ellington To Enter Draft
April 25, 2008 - 3:40 pm
yahoo.com -
Tar Heels forward Tyler Hansbrough, the National Player of the Year, will return for his senior season, the school announced Friday.

While Hansbrough will remain in school, sophomores Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington are declaring for the draft, but will not hire agents, according to a Yahoo.com report.

Naptown_Seth
04-25-2008, 04:23 PM
I like Walker because he can guard the two with dominance at times. Weaver as well. But if we draft Walker and have Granger, Dun, and Shawne it would appear to be a log jam. SG/SF is a wing in this system. Defensively is a different story. That is why I like Walker then Weaver. If do not pick up a true PG and count on Tins once again...Then Weaver can back up Diener when Tins goes down. But with similar if not worse production than Flip did at the end of the year.
Yeah, these are an interesting pair. I have myself 100% convinced that Walker is Jackson part 2, both good and bad. That would mean D when motivated, offense when hot but incredibly streaky, and prone to chasing his emotions rather than sticking to the game. He's physical on both ends for a 2/3. Twins I tell ya.

That implies clearly more offense than you can count on from Weaver. Weaver doesn't appear to be a pending liability on offense (ala Orien G) but he's in there for defense mostly.

Weaver is thinner, but much "hoppier". Different kind of athlete, not pushy physical but tenacious when dialed in. He appears to be FAR less prone to losing his cool or getting hot/cold. He is a much better defender even though Walker plays decent defense. Weaver's got some McKey to him at that end, he seems to care about results on defense.


Getting either in round 2 is party time IMO, even though they might not make it or might not big huge impacts. I just like the chance at how they might pan out without crossing my fingers for a major leap in awareness that you get with true projects.

I mean true projects haven't even made it at the NCAA level yet, let alone the NBA. These 2 guys have proven themselves in college without a doubt, and did it with an NBA style of play to them.

Naptown_Seth
04-25-2008, 04:26 PM
Dove does like to work on D and is a team guy, but I'm just not sold on his ability being high enough to distinguish himself above the pack, the same reason I've been down on Taj Gibson for example.

Then again this might have described Carl Landry last year, though personally he hasn't shocked me completely since I liked his all around game and was mostly worried about his size.

Dove also has an issue of being too much like what the team already has.



Beware of the Tourny clutch performance. Do you actually think he he can improve as a pg. I thought he was TO proned.

I would much rather have LOVe than chalmers and Lopez over chalmers as well.
Well if you go back in the thread you'll see me praising both Chalm and Rush long before the tourney hit. Chalmers isn't ready yet, but he is more of a PG than a guy like Westbrook for example. He plays the passing system MUCH better than Collison, and was less prone to try and take over than Augustin. He's tall enough and has a decent enough ability to score for himself.

The key reason I like him is the basic play work. He'll respace the floor with his dribble in order to make a fundamental, smart pass. He's willing to rotate the ball away from himself when the situation calls for it (vs Collison going into Globtrotters watch me work mode). Of all the guys running true offensive plays this year he was one of the best. He didn't show a Mark Jackson savvy or set of passes in his toolbox, but he appears to be geared toward being more that type of PG.

Chalmers felt like a guy that should stay for next year and would by then be a top 10 pick and have a solid potential as a starting NBA PG. How would being a #27 pick and hitting the bench for an NBA team affect his growth? I don't know.

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 06:24 PM
I defiantly wouldn't be upset if we got Chalmers however I also would like to work on our big situation.

If Bird wants to win now then I could see him getting another 1st round pick for Chalmers.

CableKC
04-25-2008, 06:45 PM
Dove does like to work on D and is a team guy, but I'm just not sold on his ability being high enough to distinguish himself above the pack, the same reason I've been down on Taj Gibson for example.

Then again this might have described Carl Landry last year, though personally he hasn't shocked me completely since I liked his all around game and was mostly worried about his size.

Dove also has an issue of being too much like what the team already has.
Do you mean cuz he's yet another GF?

Considering that he's a Defensive Stopper / Roleplayer.....I don't think that he needs consistent minutes.

Maybe he's not the answer.....but I would hope ( if not pray ) that Bird recognizes that we need some solid Defensive perimeter minded Roleplayers on this team.....which I think can either be had for cheap or available in the draft.

Kofi
04-25-2008, 06:47 PM
Unless Chalmers wows in pre-draft workouts, he's going in the 20's. If we really wanted him, he should be very attainable.

If we insist on going big with our own 1st, we need to move into the mid-to-late 1st and pick up one of the PG's. Someone to at least give us some slight hope.

Gamble1
04-25-2008, 07:11 PM
What about a trade for Pg help? I would much rather trade for a draft pick than trade for an actual player but I think this is harder to do.

Teams seem to value their picks alot more.

CableKC
04-25-2008, 07:51 PM
What about a trade for Pg help? I would much rather trade for a draft pick than trade for an actual player but I think this is harder to do.

Teams seem to value their picks alot more.
Unfortunately, we have very little of value that any team would want :(

Gamble1
04-26-2008, 12:53 PM
What about Foster, Shawne Williams, IKE, Quis. Those seem atleast some what valuable enough to snag a late first round pick.

Kofi
04-26-2008, 01:02 PM
We have some value.

Ike could still possibly fetch a late 1st rounder.

Foster could get a mid-1st.

Shawne could probably get something between 15-25, although I think his upside dwarfs the average player drafted in that range, so I wouldn't do it.

Quis is a $6.5M expiring contract next season, he could net a top-20 pick easily.

esabyrn333
04-26-2008, 01:21 PM
On realgm it says Quis has 2 more years on his contract does he have a team option for the final year of his contract???

Kofi
04-26-2008, 01:27 PM
On realgm it says Quis has 2 more years on his contract does he have a team option for the final year of his contract???

HoopsHype has him listed as having a team option in 09-10.

d_c
04-26-2008, 03:18 PM
Quis is a $6.5M expiring contract next season, he could net a top-20 pick easily.

Another team would only do it if they were sending a contract that was longer than Quis' back to the Pacers. Otherwise, there would be no point in giving up a pick to rent Marquis Daniels for one year.

croz24
04-26-2008, 03:25 PM
who in their right mind would trade us a pick for marquis daniels?

Kaufman
04-26-2008, 03:33 PM
who in their right mind would trade us a pick for marquis daniels?

Al Davis, Oakland Raiders?

Kofi
04-26-2008, 03:38 PM
Another team would only do it if they were sending a contract that was longer than Quis' back to the Pacers. Otherwise, there would be no point in giving up a pick to rent Marquis Daniels for one year.

Obviously.


who in their right mind would trade us a pick for marquis daniels?

Someone who's looking to shed about $7M off their cap for the summer of 2009.

croz24
04-26-2008, 04:53 PM
which means we would have to take a bad contract back in exchange for marquis just to get a late 1st rd pick...not worth it. and i'm not sure anybody wants a 2nd 1st more than me...

Speed
04-26-2008, 05:44 PM
How does this draft measure up compared to past years. I'm obviously paying more attention this year, so it seems really really deep.

esabyrn333
04-26-2008, 06:18 PM
which means we would have to take a bad contract back in exchange for marquis just to get a late 1st rd pick...not worth it. and i'm not sure anybody wants a 2nd 1st more than me...


We could probably swing a deal with Memphis if they are trying to cut salary...We take Mike Miller and #28 and we send them Marquis and Ike Diogu both are expiring and if Ike works out they could sign him cheap

Hicks
04-26-2008, 06:26 PM
How does this draft measure up compared to past years. I'm obviously paying more attention this year, so it seems really really deep.

I think it seems deep because we've all been reading/talking about it a lot, but in the end I think it'll be relatively shallow.

AesopRockOn
04-26-2008, 07:35 PM
Danny Green just declared but won't sign an agent. I want this guy. He's our defensive stopper two guard who, with some work, can be a pretty decent shooter with athleticism.

Where would he be taken?

Shade
04-26-2008, 08:11 PM
Welp, Collison's staying in school, so that's one less option at PG to look at.

Kegboy
04-26-2008, 09:55 PM
How does this draft measure up compared to past years. I'm obviously paying more attention this year, so it seems really really deep.

I think it's fairly poor. A year ago we were all excited about all the great point guards, then we realized guys like Mayo and Gordon aren't point guards, and guys like Augustin and Collison are too small.

To be more specific, I don't see much difference between guys projected in the late lottery and guys projected in the late first round. So I'd just as soon trade down, if for no other reason so Seth and I can get Brandon Rush.

Kegboy
04-26-2008, 09:57 PM
Welp, Collison's staying in school, so that's one less option at PG to look at.

Hmph. I don't know if that's a good move for him or not. But then, the more distance he can put between himself and that abysmal game he had against Rose, the better.

LoneGranger33
04-26-2008, 10:28 PM
We could probably swing a deal with Memphis if they are trying to cut salary...We take Mike Miller and #28 and we send them Marquis and Ike Diogu both are expiring and if Ike works out they could sign him cheap

That would be absolutely heroic.

CableKC
04-27-2008, 12:12 AM
To be more specific, I don't see much difference between guys projected in the late lottery and guys projected in the late first round. So I'd just as soon trade down, if for no other reason so Seth and I can get Brandon Rush.
I can only wish :pray:

CableKC
04-27-2008, 12:13 AM
Hmph. I don't know if that's a good move for him or not. But then, the more distance he can put between himself and that abysmal game he had against Rose, the better.
LOL....the only person that saved us from Bird drafting Collison with the 11th pick was Collison himself.

MyFavMartin
04-27-2008, 01:39 AM
I think it's fairly poor. A year ago we were all excited about all the great point guards, then we realized guys like Mayo and Gordon aren't point guards, and guys like Augustin and Collison are too small.

To be more specific, I don't see much difference between guys projected in the late lottery and guys projected in the late first round. So I'd just as soon trade down, if for no other reason so Seth and I can get Brandon Rush.

This group is better than last year's due to the players having to go to college for at least one year. I could see some quality players available at 10-15 deep in the second round. Guys like Augustin and Collison could be available in the 20s. The top 6 will be very good: Beasly, Rose, Mayo, Gordon, Bayless, and Nonharry Lopez.

Supposedly Gallinari is good and Randolph could be the next Bosh. Westbrook, the guy I want, is in this second tier with these guys and Jordan, McGee, and Love. Don't know much of Gallinari but a question I have will be is he athletic enough for the NBA? Randolph needs to put on some muscle without it affecting his game. Jordan is a project, but could be the next Howard. McGee shows some good well-developed talent but played at Nevada, where the competition wasn't the top of Div. I. Love isn't athletic but a tremendous ballplayer that could stand to lose some weight.

Third tier is led by Arthur (desire), Speights (development), and Augustin (size) and includes CDR (weight, shooting form, 3Pt %?), Collison (playmaking), Rush (shot creation), Kuofos (development), Harry Lopez (offense), Greene (position? SF or PF?), Budinger (NBA quality SG?), Hibbert (weight/aggression), Smith (?), and Thompson (?). Speights could be the next Al Jefferson, Arthur is compared to McDyess, Harry could be the next Varejao. I'd be very happy to get a few players in this tier (Speights, Arthur, CDR).

Young
04-27-2008, 12:34 PM
I think it seems deep because we've all been reading/talking about it a lot, but in the end I think it'll be relatively shallow.

I agree.

I really don't think this is a great draft.

I think that in the top 8 the opitions are pretty good but after that there is a dropoff compared to other drafts.

pwee31
04-27-2008, 05:47 PM
Thabeet is staying at UCONN

rexnom
04-27-2008, 07:59 PM
Thabeet is staying at UCONN
Good for him, bad for us.

Major Cold
04-28-2008, 09:19 AM
Thabeet just pulled a Hibbert.

MyFavMartin
04-28-2008, 10:03 PM
Good for him, bad for us.

Why? He wasn't going before 11. He'd be lucky to be in the top 20. He'll be in the top 15 next yearas he needs some development.

Maybe he can work on a finger wag....

Major Cold
04-28-2008, 10:53 PM
Why? He wasn't going before 11. He'd be lucky to be in the top 20. He'll be in the top 15 next yearas he needs some development.

Maybe he can work on a finger wag....

I bet that is what Hibbert thought as well...

Face it. It is one more year scouts and GMs can put him under a microscope. There is no one in this draft with his size and athleticism. And he is all over the draft boards except lottery. I really do not see him improving that much.

OakMoses
04-29-2008, 10:26 AM
I bet that is what Hibbert thought as well...


Even last year Hibbert was a guy who had a fairly complete game without the obvious holes that Thabeet has. The knocks on him were his athleticism, which doesn't really improve. If Thabeet were to come back next year with some added weight and strength, an improved offensive game, and a better understanding of rebounding, he'd be a lock for a lottery pick.

Rajah Brown
04-29-2008, 11:18 AM
Mell-

Agreed. Another year in college ball can't really hurt Thabeet and
will probably help. He's not gonna shrink or lose his athleticism and
his understanding of the nuances of the game are so limited, he
can't help but improve. In the case of Hibbert, all he did by staying
another year is highlight the shortcomings he already had that he
can't do anything about.

Jonathan
04-29-2008, 01:05 PM
Thabeet improved his stock for next year by staying at UCONN. He must do the following: improve his post game, hit the weight room, & stay healthy. He will also improve his basketball IQ by playing in more games.
Look at the draft class this year at the C POS. D Jordan. Magee, B Lopez, & Randolph were all going to be drafted over him and should be drafted over him. I do not know the draft class of '09 but he should be a top ten easy b/c he is 7'3.

Major Cold
04-29-2008, 01:36 PM
I just don't see it. How many raw players all of the sudden get the game of basketball.
Tim Duncan was raw with flashes of what was to come. Thabeet has not flashed anything.

Jonathan
04-29-2008, 01:47 PM
Thabeet improves his stock by getting more experience playing basketball and becoming stronger. That is it. His ceiling is Diop w/ a better offensive game. He will never be a Tim Duncan.

MyFavMartin
04-29-2008, 02:50 PM
Thabeet improved his stock for next year by staying at UCONN. .... He will also improve his basketball IQ by playing in more games.


I was thinking the same thing.... UConn usually has a really good team with a pro-style game, so another year there will help Thabeet.

Major Cold
04-29-2008, 07:39 PM
O.N.E. i never compared him to Duncan. I just don't see all of the sudden a player gets it in O.N.E. year. Sene will need 4 more years to even consider anything. Seriously I just think that he could be overshadowed by other teammates (Price), ala Collison/Westbrook or Noah/Horford.

LoneGranger33
04-29-2008, 11:08 PM
Wait, so what pick are we if we don't win the lottery?

Kofi
04-29-2008, 11:22 PM
#11, unless a team(s) 12-14 pulls off a miracle and jumps into the top-3. Knowing our luck, all three will and we'll end up picking 14th.

Hicks
04-29-2008, 11:27 PM
Most likely 11, unless someone who is supposed to pick 12-14 wins the lottery and bumps us down. Theoretically we could be bumped down to 14, but that's HIGHLY unlikely.

Shade
04-30-2008, 01:56 AM
Good for him, bad for us.

It's only bad for us because it leaves one less bad pick for someone else to take.

rexnom
04-30-2008, 02:04 AM
It's only bad for us because it leaves one less bad pick for someone else to take.
Also, we could have traded for a low first rounder and gotten him this year. I think he goes higher next year, simply by virtue of the fact that his season simply can't end as badly. Hibbert should have left after his final four appearance.

Ballerzfan
04-30-2008, 09:09 AM
I'm really beginning to dislike ESPN's draft simulator. Out of 47 tries this moring I got Westbrook, Augustin and Love every time. Ugh. I finally gave up considering it was starting to feel like asking my wife for a hummer. You know there is potential for a good result, but ultimately you end up just getting hallway sex. Bleh. :mad:

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 10:32 AM
I believe that we may have a Shawne Williams reach by bird. Call it a hunch.

Jonathan
04-30-2008, 11:17 AM
I am not against a reach pick at 11 ie Speights or Batum. If it Koufus (Ohio State) or Mario Chalmers I will be calling for the assasianation of Larry Bird.

MyFavMartin
04-30-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm really beginning to dislike ESPN's draft simulator. Out of 47 tries this moring I got Westbrook, Augustin and Love every time.


I was on it the other day and out of 10 times, had Rose at least 3, if not 4, including a back-to-back Rose-Rose Pacers with the #1 both times.

Considering the Pacers need at PG, I think Ford has in it Rose>Bayless>Augustin>Westbrook....

I really would like to see the Pacers set the tone defensively by selecting Westbrook.

MyFavMartin
04-30-2008, 11:23 AM
Seriously I just think that he could be overshadowed by other teammates (Price), ala Collison/Westbrook or Noah/Horford.

Think one this year could say Horford/Speights?

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 11:27 AM
No doubt. I really like Speights and I think he is starter material by his sophomore year.

themayhem87
04-30-2008, 11:30 AM
11

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 11:32 AM
11

Fix your number.

MyFavMartin
04-30-2008, 11:37 AM
Playing ESPN's mock draft generator, I noticed that Ford consistently has Minny going big. If Lopez is gone, it seems Randolph is their choice, even over a SG (like Mayo) which is a major need for that team.

Minny's draft position and choice could make major implications for who falls to the Pacers.

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 12:12 PM
SG a major need for Minny?
Foye
Jaric
McCants
Brewer

I think big is a more major need. But I don't think they reach past Mayo to get Randolph.

Shade
04-30-2008, 12:15 PM
I am not against a reach pick at 11 ie Speights or Batum. If it Koufus (Ohio State) or Mario Chalmers I will be calling for the assasianation of Larry Bird.

I would love to have Chalmers.

Koufus, however, is a doofus.

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Chalmers at 11 is a reach.

I would rather trade to get a pick or trade for him.

jmoney2584
04-30-2008, 12:31 PM
Well I had a dream recently that we ended up with the #5 somehow, so I take that as a good omen that we will have a pretty good draft pick. Remember I said this by the way, this could be pretty neat if I'm right.... I will immediately buy a ticket to Vegas

Shade
04-30-2008, 12:32 PM
Chalmers at 11 is a reach.

I would rather trade to get a pick or trade for him.

Oh, no doubt. I'd be pissed if we blew #11 on Chalmers. But trading into a late first and nabbing him would be a good move, methinks.

CableKC
04-30-2008, 02:21 PM
Well I had a dream recently that we ended up with the #5 somehow, so I take that as a good omen that we will have a pretty good draft pick. Remember I said this by the way, this could be pretty neat if I'm right.... I will immediately buy a ticket to Vegas
I thought that we could only end up with a Top 3 pick, ( more then likely ) the 11th pick or ( at worst, which is unlikely unless a team moves up ) any pick between the 12th to 14th pick.

Correct me if I am wrong....but I don't think it's possible for us to get the 5th pick.

Maybe you were dreaming of what happens in the 2009 draft where we end up with the 5th worst record in the league and end up with the 5th pick in the 2009 draft? :laugh:

Major Cold
04-30-2008, 10:36 PM
u r right Cable. I hope we don't get a top 5 in the 2009 draft. But if we did...It looks worse than this year. It may be a bad year.

Naptown_Seth
05-01-2008, 09:52 AM
Welp, Collison's staying in school, so that's one less option at PG to look at.
He needed to, though the issue now is their freshman class. Of course it's hard to imagine they will outplay him next year but they do apparently have some quality guys coming on board.

Collison needs to learn to see the floor and be a passer rather than just doing a Travis Best for his own layup. Even in his big scoring games this was his method. He never showed a true "let me run this show" awareness.

OTOH he does have speed, can get to the rim even in the NBA and can D up pretty well. You have to think he's odds on for top 10 next year which makes staying a potentially smart financial move.


Chalmers I love. Chalmers at 11 could work out since I think he could make it. But the reality is that Chalmers at 11 is a dumb use of the pick's value. You could trade down and still get him if that was your target. Or as I suggested you could try to trade into the first later on and get him as a 2nd choice which reduces the pain if he flops.


Tim Duncan was raw with flashes of what was to come.
I thought by his senior year he was pretty polished actually. But the point is the same, Thabeet is a shot blocker specialist and EVERYTHING else in his game is cross fingers and hope. That's not the smart way to build a team. If you didn't need him to pan out much in other ways then it would be okay, but IMO the Pacers just can't afford the risk.


Koufus, however, is a doofus.
Agreed. :) At least so far he has been. I was disappointed with him as he was one of my main targets for game watching early on. That didn't last long. Checked in on his games from time to time, never saw any dramatic change.

Naptown_Seth
05-01-2008, 10:04 AM
I think it's fairly poor. A year ago we were all excited about all the great point guards, then we realized guys like Mayo and Gordon aren't point guards, and guys like Augustin and Collison are too small.

To be more specific, I don't see much difference between guys projected in the late lottery and guys projected in the late first round. So I'd just as soon trade down, if for no other reason so Seth and I can get Brandon Rush.
The difference between B. Rush and his brothers in regards to APPARENT work ethic and quality team play sure is odd. I don't dislike K. Rush but he doesn't show the all-around game that Brandon appears to have. All along I've said that B. Rush reminds me of a Bobby Phills. Not AS or anything, but maybe a solid top 8 guy in your rotation. Clearly K. Rush didn't appear to be able to maintain that same status.

So is B. Rush going the way of his brothers, or is he breaking out in his own direction. I do like that he was in that Kansas program. Their style had a nice mix of team play with dashes of leaning on the stars ala NBA.

Major Cold
05-01-2008, 10:06 AM
I was referring to Duncan's earlier college career. The man had only played like 3 years of college ball. He was considered RAW. But basketball just clicked with him. I don't see any click happening with Thabeet. NONE.

He is a Calvin Booth.

Major Cold
05-01-2008, 10:08 AM
The only thing I really worry about is BRush might be a product of a system. Can he bring his versatility to a structured system?

Jonathan
05-01-2008, 11:06 AM
I read an article in the Star where George Hill (IUPUI/BROAD RIPPLE) is declaring for the draft but not hiring an agent. Odds are he will not get drafted, but the kid is a good player. Memphis Guard Antonio Anderson is doing the same, do you see the Pacers picking up Anderson in the second round if they go big in the first and Chalmers or Hudson are not around?

Anthem
05-01-2008, 11:15 AM
I think most people saw the Bailey thing as a PR move and saw through it.
Not the people I talked to. They couldn't understand why he got cut.

Anthem
05-01-2008, 11:34 AM
#11, unless a team(s) 12-14 pulls off a miracle and jumps into the top-3. Knowing our luck, all three will and we'll end up picking 14th.
I tried the ESPN lottery just for kicks, and we picked 13th.

Will Galen
05-01-2008, 12:34 PM
I thought that we could only end up with a Top 3 pick, ( more then likely ) the 11th pick or ( at worst, which is unlikely unless a team moves up ) any pick between the 12th to 14th pick.

Correct me if I am wrong....but I don't think it's possible for us to get the 5th pick.

One he was dreaming so anything is possible. Two,we can trade for the 5th pick.

MyFavMartin
05-01-2008, 01:56 PM
SG a major need for Minny?
Foye
Jaric
McCants
Brewer

I think big is a more major need. But I don't think they reach past Mayo to get Randolph.

Foye is more of a PG as is Jaric (scoring PG, but PG nonetheless). McCants is short and more of a backup SG. Brewer is their SF, who can't shoot.

If they get a high pick and Lopez is available, I see them going that way so Jefferson can move to PF, but if I were them, I would love to slide Mayo right next to Foye and Brewer and Jefferson and address C somehow else.

LoneGranger33
05-01-2008, 04:06 PM
#11, unless a team(s) 12-14 pulls off a miracle and jumps into the top-3. Knowing our luck, all three will and we'll end up picking 14th.


Most likely 11, unless someone who is supposed to pick 12-14 wins the lottery and bumps us down. Theoretically we could be bumped down to 14, but that's HIGHLY unlikely.

Thanks.

It's been awhile since we've had a pick this high...no matter what happens in Seacaucus, it's gonna be exciting.

Hicks
05-01-2008, 06:34 PM
This is purely a gut feeling, but I want to see if anyone might think something similar to it: Could Eric Gordan, now that his expectations have sunk to a degree, be the steal of the draft if he goes lower than say, 9 or 10?

Secondly, is it plausible or probably he'll drop?

It's just been sitting with me lately when I look at the draft that I'd be fairly excited if we took him at #11 if he's there because I slightly suspect he's being overlooked because of the end of this season at IU. I know it's a risk, but I have a nagging feeling that the real Eric Gordan is better than most people think. (That doesn't mean superstar)

owl
05-01-2008, 06:46 PM
Mal, you may very well be right. The player in college did not look the same as the HS
player. I am concerned about meeting in state expectations. I would love to be
proven wrong. EJ needs to be evaluated for his desire and not so much his talent.
He has talent, does he have the personality to be a star and asset to the Pacers
off the court.

Kofi
05-01-2008, 06:49 PM
Gordon went from overrated, to so many people saying he's overrated that he actually became underrated. I could see him dropping to #11.

Major Cold
05-01-2008, 07:16 PM
You know Gordon did have times where he was brilliant. If he drops to us I will be utterly shocked. The only way he drops to us is if Love, Batum, and Augustin go before him. I just don't see that happening.

esabyrn333
05-01-2008, 07:17 PM
Gordon went from overrated, to so many people saying he's overrated that he actually became underrated. I could see him dropping to #11.

I see he has been moved to the yes line... I would be very happy if we landed him at 11 this would be very Danny Granger like for us.

AesopRockOn
05-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Gordon, like Mayo, will wow people during individual workouts to the point that people remember why he was so highly rated before the NCAA season.

rexnom
05-02-2008, 04:50 AM
Yeah, I feel like Gordon, Mayo, Bayless are all guys whose stocks will rise during workouts. Beware of guys like that.

DGPR
05-02-2008, 06:20 AM
Somebody will slide in the draft, lets just hope it's the right person.

Naptown_Seth
05-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Yeah, I feel like Gordon, Mayo, Bayless are all guys whose stocks will rise during workouts. Beware of guys like that.
I agree their stock will rise again, but I disagree with "beware". The combine drills stuff is worthless most of the time, but if these guys run "pro days" where they simply show what they can do on a court and it impresses the scouts (all over again) then I think there's good reason for it.

Of course I don't think Bayless has really fallen, and I seriously doubt Augustin is going to ever slot above Mayo/EJ.

As for steals, I think it's just impossible to be sure. I like both of them and Westbrook in terms of ability to move with and without the ball at the NBA level. However, that's not the same as actually having NBA game. It only means they COULD.

The guys I do or don't like is based only on if I think they showed something that could be applied at the next level. The situations and mindsets are obviously a major impact on which ones make good on those things.

In other words I can see EJ hitting or missing badly. He's got the shooting motion off dribble, he's fairly strong, he can draw fouls...so that's why he makes it big. But he's had FG% issues, struggles with his dribble and hasn't shown great passing ability...so that's why he flops.

You tell me, does he fix those issues, does he go to a team that minimizes those issues or emphasizes his strengths? WTF knows really. But I wouldn't hate them taking a shot on him at the 10-11 range (not that they have the 10, just saying).

Major Cold
05-02-2008, 11:38 AM
I agree. If we pick Gordon and he flops I would be less upset if they went for Augustin or Batum and they flop.

Why you ask? because Gordon could be great. Neither Batum or Augustin are even considered that.

bread
05-02-2008, 12:35 PM
IMO, where Gordon gets selected will have a lot to do with what he measures out at. If he's a legit 6'4" he won't fall as far as he will if he's shorter. His erratic play down the stretch will likely not be a factor because it can be attributed to the injury and the turmoil. I'm not saying it should be, but it can.

esabyrn333
05-02-2008, 12:38 PM
I agree. If we pick Gordon and he flops I would be less upset if they went for Augustin or Batum and they flop.

Why you ask? because Gordon could be great. Neither Batum or Augustin are even considered that.


Neither was tony parker

jmoney2584
05-02-2008, 12:45 PM
I thought that we could only end up with a Top 3 pick, ( more then likely ) the 11th pick or ( at worst, which is unlikely unless a team moves up ) any pick between the 12th to 14th pick.

Correct me if I am wrong....but I don't think it's possible for us to get the 5th pick.

Maybe you were dreaming of what happens in the 2009 draft where we end up with the 5th worst record in the league and end up with the 5th pick in the 2009 draft? :laugh:

I know that, but I feel it was via trade... I just remember some hooplah and then the announcement of "With the #5 pick in the 2008 NBA Draft, the Indiana Pacers..." and then I woke up

Major Cold
05-02-2008, 12:46 PM
Alright Eli Stone :rolleyes:

jmoney2584
05-02-2008, 12:57 PM
I would love mayo because of his competitive spirit, he just has the drive to win in his eyes and you can tell it. Gordon, though I would be happy if we got him at #11 sometimes looks a little scared still...though I believe if he had played for Crean instead of Sampson then he would have had an even better year. Kelvin Sampson never taught his players (though they should know) what a screen was. Deandre Thomas, as useless and slow as he is, if there is one thing in this world that he should be able to do is SET A PICK..he is so big. If he could have put a body on ANY smaller perimeter guy then Gordon would have been able to get to the rim with one hand tied behind his back. I blame part of Gordons inconsistency on the part of Kelvin Sampson not knowing how to draw up plays or preach fundamentals in game play. DJ White has a great 15-16 foot jumper, they could have pick and popped or even pick and rolled people all year long but over the course of the entire season they NEVER tried it. To quote Dane Cook..."UNBELIEVABLE!"

Major Cold
05-02-2008, 02:01 PM
Some more Ibaka footage.



<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Eo9cP0c_okE&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Eo9cP0c_okE&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1ZDgyAL7_gA&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

OakMoses
05-02-2008, 03:26 PM
Mal, you may very well be right. The player in college did not look the same as the HS
player. I am concerned about meeting in state expectations. I would love to be
proven wrong. EJ needs to be evaluated for his desire and not so much his talent.
He has talent, does he have the personality to be a star and asset to the Pacers
off the court.

I'd be very happy with Gordon at #11. I think most of his issues late in the season were due to some mental toughness issues. He seemed to be badly shaken by the Sampson debaucle. He was also badly shaken by tough defense. He'll have to learn how to handle pressure better.

I could easily see Gordon fitting in the Rip Hamilton/Michael Redd category of player: very good, but not a true "star". A future 2/3 tandem of Gordon and Granger - both 18-20 ppg guys who play pretty good D - is very attractive.

owl
05-02-2008, 04:45 PM
Serge Ibaka is an enigma. That is where your scouts are vital. Ibaka may be worth
the gamgle at 11 if TPTB determine talent/mental make-up say he is worth it.

LoneGranger33
05-02-2008, 05:40 PM
I'd say he's more like an enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded in darkness behind a two-way mirror.

Gamble1
05-02-2008, 07:30 PM
I'd be very happy with Gordon at #11. I think most of his issues late in the season were due to some mental toughness issues. He seemed to be badly shaken by the Sampson debaucle. He was also badly shaken by tough defense. He'll have to learn how to handle pressure better.

I could easily see Gordon fitting in the Rip Hamilton/Michael Redd category of player: very good, but not a true "star". A future 2/3 tandem of Gordon and Granger - both 18-20 ppg guys who play pretty good D - is very attractive.

IF we draft Gordon I'll buy everyone on here a beer...or wine if you can't lift a mug.

I really think we are pegged in on a mediocre player in this draft. THe best case is the player develops into a star like TONy Parker or Arenas but that rarely happens.

I don't mean to be a downer just realistic. And as for the foreign players hopefully Larry has learned his lesson. He can't evaluate the kind of talent.

Gamble1
05-02-2008, 07:32 PM
Serge Ibaka is an enigma. That is where your scouts are vital. Ibaka may be worth
the gamgle at 11 if TPTB determine talent/mental make-up say he is worth it.

We can't gamble and neither can Larry bc his job depends on it. He won't take a project player. Atleast I hope. :rolleyes:

Major Cold
05-02-2008, 08:33 PM
Ibaka at 11 is more of a reach than Chalmers.

My ideal draft would be:

11th pick: Westbrook or Speights

trade into the 20-25: Ibaka

second round: White or Walker

Ibaka won't come to the NBA this year. But if the next three years are a bust and this kid is not then we would not be totally out of the loop. It is worth the gamble late in the draft.

Mourning
05-02-2008, 10:14 PM
I don't see Gordon sliding to us, but would be shocked AND excited if he did.

Anthem
05-02-2008, 11:21 PM
One of these guys has got to slide, right?

I mean, Beasley/Rose/Bayless/Mayo/Lopez are definitely gone, right? But chances are one of EJ/Love/Westbrook is there at #11.

rexnom
05-03-2008, 02:16 AM
One of these guys has got to slide, right?

I mean, Beasley/Rose/Bayless/Mayo/Lopez are definitely gone, right? But chances are one of EJ/Love/Westbrook is there at #11.
That has to be the top 5 in some order. But EJ/Love/Westbrook could very easily go 6-7-8.

Major Cold
05-03-2008, 07:56 AM
If Love goes before Galliari (sp) I would be surprised.

owl
05-03-2008, 08:52 AM
Love, Westbrook, Arthur, Augustin, maybe Gordon is who will be available to pick from.
I am not saying they all will be available but at least one of them will.


If you had to pick between Jordan with questionable desire and say Ibaka who has a fire
in his belly, who would you pick? This is strictly hypothetical. I am not saying this is the
actual situation with either.

Anthem
05-03-2008, 11:50 PM
That has to be the top 5 in some order. But EJ/Love/Westbrook could very easily go 6-7-8.
But it seems they could just as easily go 11-12-13. Well, not quite that easily. But pretty much every mock draft has one of these guys available to us at 11. No, mocks aren't very accurate for individual players, but it does get the point across that we should be able to get a pretty decent player at 11.

croz24
05-03-2008, 11:59 PM
Love, Westbrook, Arthur, Augustin, maybe Gordon is who will be available to pick from.
I am not saying they all will be available but at least one of them will.


If you had to pick between Jordan with questionable desire and say Ibaka who has a fire
in his belly, who would you pick? This is strictly hypothetical. I am not saying this is the
actual situation with either.

i wouldn't draft either and try to trade down to the late teens...

owl
05-04-2008, 08:25 AM
i wouldn't draft either and try to trade down to the late teens...

Thanks for answering my question. Maybe you can form your own question.

Naptown_Seth
05-05-2008, 01:33 AM
Man Owl, glad that won't be the real case. I mean I guess you have to go with potential and fire over more polished potential and no desire to do anything with it.


Now here's a scary what-if. What if Gallinari is still on the board at 11? Does Bird take him and can he afford not to?

imawhat
05-05-2008, 04:11 AM
Here's a silly question:

Does a player have to declare and/or register in order to be drafted?


And, has anyone seen Ricky Rubio (Spain) play?

croz24
05-05-2008, 04:43 AM
Thanks for answering my question. Maybe you can form your own question.

jordan didn't show much at all at a&m, outside of a few lamarcus aldridge/andrew bynum like spurts, and ibaka is bound to be the next saer sene...if i HAD to pick one of the two, i'd draft jordan. but the fact is, neither would be a solid pick at pick 11. and quite honestly, based on the mocks and projections, i like the talent level of the players that tend to be listed 16-25 better than i do 11-15. so why would i waste a pick on a player at #11 when i can get a player i have rated higher at pick #19? thus trade...and if nobody trades with us and we were forced to draft a big, give me jason thompson ;-)

themayhem87
05-05-2008, 06:41 AM
Here's a silly question:

Does a player have to declare and/or register in order to be drafted?


And, has anyone seen Ricky Rubio (Spain) play?


You have to declare or be a senior to be drafted, and no i haven't seen ricky play but I've heard about him on draftexpress ever since he was 14. His highlights are unreal and he will probably be the #1 pick next year. I would give anything to get him

owl
05-05-2008, 07:15 AM
Man Owl, glad that won't be the real case. I mean I guess you have to go with potential and fire over more polished potential and no desire to do anything with it.


Now here's a scary what-if. What if Gallinari is still on the board at 11? Does Bird take him and can he afford not to?

It was a philosophical question and by the way thanks for answering the question.
In my book desire and fire are more important than talent. I would take a player with a little
less talent but has tremendous drive. Reggie is a great example. He was not a great
run and jump athlete but did he ever have desire to hone his craft.
No, the two players I referenced are unlikely to be the ones that Bird will have to choose
between but I hope he decides based on something other than talent alone.
Your scenario is very possible. If he is best available and has the mental aspect that
I value then you choose him regardless. Maybe the Pacers(aka Hawks) could take
Boston to 7 with their 43 small forwards. ;-)

Jonathan
05-05-2008, 09:48 AM
Koufos will not provide the Pacers with low post scoring or low post defense. He is a shooter w/ great mid range game.
I would love for Randolph to slip to us but odds are Charlotte, New Jersey, or Chicago will not pass up on him.

esabyrn333
05-05-2008, 01:18 PM
NBADraft.net lastest mock draft has EJ going 12th and has us taking Kevin Love. I think I would throw up if we took Love over Eric Gordon. I personally think that if we where it get Gordon I would start him at PG along side Dunleavy and Granger.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2008, 04:11 PM
This is purely a gut feeling, but I want to see if anyone might think something similar to it: Could Eric Gordan, now that his expectations have sunk to a degree, be the steal of the draft if he goes lower than say, 9 or 10?

Secondly, is it plausible or probably he'll drop?

It's just been sitting with me lately when I look at the draft that I'd be fairly excited if we took him at #11 if he's there because I slightly suspect he's being overlooked because of the end of this season at IU. I know it's a risk, but I have a nagging feeling that the real Eric Gordan is better than most people think. (That doesn't mean superstar)

This is what I've been thinking. I think it'll be the stroke of good luck that'll help us get back on track. (I'm also not as convinced as most everyone else that Bird is a total doof.)

... Danger and EJ on the wings. :cloud9:

bread
05-05-2008, 04:22 PM
I think if Gordon's available you have to take him. If he's not, get Westbrook. If we can get one of those two and trade back into the 1st round to get Robin Lopez I would call that a truly successful draft.

Naptown_Seth
05-05-2008, 04:24 PM
NBADraft.net lastest mock draft has EJ going 12th and has us taking Kevin Love. I think I would throw up if we took Love over Eric Gordon. I personally think that if we where it get Gordon I would start him at PG along side Dunleavy and Granger.
Of course I would celebrate the move.

BTW, a reminder from many pages ago, Love vs Jordan, Jordan tried to face up on the baseline post, Love flat out grabbed the ball right out of his hands. So much for potential vs can't defend the post. Love did get tested by several of the top bigs and defended them just fine. Not start, but Foster-esque in his smart, don't bite fakes, make them make their shots type of defense.

I know he's not flashy, but the first time Danny scores on a dunk 2 seconds after the other team scores on a 3/4 court outlet from Love you'll find plenty to like about the guy. Plus his maturity and smarts as a freshman were remarkable. Maybe he's topped out already, maybe that's not as awful as some think.


And actually I do like EJ, but knowing that some guys are going to bust I do worry about his results last season. I'd almost prefer to try Westbrook over EJ. Of course if EJ pans out and the Pacers passed on him....oh brother, talk about PR nightmare. All I'd say is that you can't think about that when drafting, you have to try for the guy you think will work out on court the best.

Fans don't have to empty their wallets or explain the empty seats when their Pacers opinions flop.

indyman37
05-05-2008, 04:34 PM
And, has anyone seen Ricky Rubio (Spain) play?
That kid is insane. Being named the next Pistol Pete when you are only 16...wow. He will have a superb career wherever it is.

OakMoses
05-05-2008, 05:02 PM
Just for the record, if we wind up getting any one of Gordon, Love, or Westbrook at #11, I'll be a very happy boy.

Will Galen
05-05-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm pretty sure the Pacers would take Rose at #1 if we got lucky. And I think the powers that be would take a deep breath and take Beasley at #2 if we got the 2ed pick and someone already took Rose. That's even though Beasley has some maturity issues. I think most of us would take Beasley and Rose 1-2 in some order.

But who do we take if we get the 3rd pick? Bruno says Bird is interested in a point guard or a power player. That would probably be Brook Lopez, or Bayless.

O'B in is last show said the Pacers would be more interested in attaining an established point guard than taking one with our #11 pick. I think Bird would take Brook with an eye on trading JO.

Who would everyone pick with the 3rd pick?

I started reading this thread from the start the other day and it's interesting to see what we thought just a few month's ago. I would have said Gordon for sure with the 3rd pick then.

Kofi
05-05-2008, 06:17 PM
We'd probably take Bayless #3. Maybe Mayo, although it's still questionable if he'll be capable of running the point in the NBA, or possibly Lopez, although I think Bayless is a far better talent.

duke dynamite
05-05-2008, 06:27 PM
Kofi -

Why all the sudden did you change your mind on EG? What has changed for you to think he would be a good fit here?

Just curious...