PDA

View Full Version : Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...



Pages : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9

Major Cold
04-09-2008, 07:41 AM
I would love to have Speights on this team

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 09:48 AM
Ya, all the amazing things that people talk about and how important JO is on defense, well, that's what Thabeet is.. And it's not like you can't teach someone post moves or how to shoot better.. He's absolutely worth our pick.

I agree with you on Lester Hudson but your too high on Thabeet. I think the Pacers will go with Jordan of A&M over both Thabeet and Hibbert. The reason is very simple Jordan could turn into Andrew Bynum and he will have time to slowly progress with our organization as long as we keep Jermaine O'neal. I do not know about Jordan's work ethic and have only seem him play once against UCLA (not too good of a game) but he has more promise than both Hibbert and Thabeet and the Eastern Conference is weak at the C position.

OakMoses
04-09-2008, 10:20 AM
I agree with you on Lester Hudson but your too high on Thabeet. I think the Pacers will go with Jordan of A&M over both Thabeet and Hibbert. The reason is very simple Jordan could turn into Andrew Bynum and he will have time to slowly progress with our organization as long as we keep Jermaine O'neal. I do not know about Jordan's work ethic and have only seem him play once against UCLA (not too good of a game) but he has more promise than both Hibbert and Thabeet and the Eastern Conference is weak at the C position.

I completely understand the potential that guys like Thabeet, McGee, and Jordan have. If we really want to draft one of these guys, however, we need to realize what we're getting. With any of these three, you're not getting a guy who will see the court next year, especially if our current front court stays in tact. David Harrison and Ike Diogu will both be better players than any of these three guys for at least the next year, probably two or three. When these guys do see the court, you'll likely only get a couple rebounds, blocks, and putbacks out of them and you'll see a ton of mistakes. They may be good in the future, but adding a project player will not make this team at all better next season.

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 10:33 AM
I completely understand the potential that guys like Thabeet, McGee, and Jordan have. If we really want to draft one of these guys, however, we need to realize what we're getting. With any of these three, you're not getting a guy who will see the court next year, especially if our current front court stays in tact. David Harrison and Ike Diogu will both be better players than any of these three guys for at least the next year, probably two or three. When these guys do see the court, you'll likely only get a couple rebounds, blocks, and putbacks out of them and you'll see a ton of mistakes. They may be good in the future, but adding a project player will not make this team at all better next season.

David Harrison is gone after this season. It will be interesting to see what else happens with our roster ie do we trade Q6, Jeff Foster, Tinsley or IKE? What will we get in return? Drafting a big man is a crap shoot and it takes patience. Are they going to be Scott Haskin/Bryant Reeves/Luther Wright or Rik Smits? Keep in mind Spencer Hawes was the 10th pick last year. What this teams need is better defense so do we take Thabeet b/c he is the most potent shot blocker out of the bunch? If we miss Jordan and he turns into Bynum we made the wrong decision.

Hicks
04-09-2008, 10:38 AM
I love that all these kids are declaring. It's wonderful. Save the shallow draft pools for when the Pacers don't suck anymore.

Hear hear!

Hicks
04-09-2008, 10:39 AM
Ya, all the amazing things that people talk about and how important JO is on defense, well, that's what Thabeet is.. And it's not like you can't teach someone post moves or how to shoot better.. He's absolutely worth our pick.

What players in the NBA today started out with no post game... and added a good one. Or couldn't shoot at all.... but became a good shooter.

themayhem87
04-09-2008, 10:44 AM
speights is an absolute steal for anyone that takes him around picks 15-20. if he waited another year he would have been a top 10 pick. I saw him tear up my Vols this year, he went like 10-10 from the field, and hes a 6-10 powerforward. Looked alot like horford did the past few years

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 10:53 AM
I was talking to shade about this yesterday. The thing that worries me about these guys that come from Africa is that this is essentially thier meal ticket. HOw much do they really want to work at their game? Thabeet scares me for that reason becuase he also shows a lack of fight in his game. Getting pushed out of the post is not what I want in my center.

Of course he and Mcgee seem to care more than JOrdan. Physically Jordan is the most NBA ready but his heart is not NBA ready. Mcgee is the least physically ready but shows the most promise of them all.

I would rather have McGee if a quality ie. starting point guard is not available. Thabeet is my next choice and Jordan is after that.

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 10:55 AM
I also love how Thabeet is not on Draftnets mock draft... Does someone know if he is declaring or not.

owl
04-09-2008, 11:12 AM
I was talking to shade about this yesterday. The thing that worries me about these guys that come from Africa is that this is essentially thier meal ticket. HOw much do they really want to work at their game? Thabeet scares me for that reason becuase he also shows a lack of fight in his game. Getting pushed out of the post is not what I want in my center.

Of course he and Mcgee seem to care more than JOrdan. Physically Jordan is the most NBA ready but his heart is not NBA ready. Mcgee is the least physically ready but shows the most promise of them all.

I would rather have McGee if a quality ie. starting point guard is not available. Thabeet is my next choice and Jordan is after that.

Pretty fair assesment of the big guys. Of the three I want the one with the greatest desire.
That is the hardest part to determine, plus the big the Pacers pick will have a career
ending injury shortly after joining the Pacers. So using reverse pyschology whoever is your first choice pick your second choice. No wait maybe that means the second choice will
break down. Ahh...nevermind. Somebody just roll some dice. :-)

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 11:25 AM
What players in the NBA today started out with no post game... and added a good one. Or couldn't shoot at all.... but became a good shooter.
All players adapted.. I am willing to bet that JO didn't start out with a good post game.. Coming right out of high school.. But then he came over here and developed very nicely. And we all know that people get better at shooting.. Or at least everyone with a brain.. If you practice hard enough at it, both of those can greatly be improved.. Look at Bird, he was an amazing shooter, you aren't just born nailing shots all over the place, you practice so much and so hard that it just comes to you.

Another example of a post player that developed good post skills when he became pro was Andrew Bynum.. He worked hard at it every day.. I think he was trained by Abdul-Jabbar.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 11:26 AM
I also love how Thabeet is not on Draftnets mock draft... Does someone know if he is declaring or not.
Ya, they took him off yesterday.. Not sure if they got word that he wanted to stay at Uconn or not.. But he was listed at #17.

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 11:27 AM
David Harrison is gone after this season. It will be interesting to see what else happens with our roster ie do we trade Q6, Jeff Foster, Tinsley or IKE? What will we get in return? Drafting a big man is a crap shoot and it takes patience. Are they going to be Scott Haskin/Bryant Reeves/Luther Wright or Rik Smits? Keep in mind Spencer Hawes was the 10th pick last year. What this teams need is better defense so do we take Thabeet b/c he is the most potent shot blocker out of the bunch? If we miss Jordan and he turns into Bynum we made the wrong decision.


As far as I know Bynum never shied away from contact right. Looking down the road I want the guy who likes to play hard not soft. Jordan comes off soft. LIke the guys in the gym who likes the fast breaks becuase it looks cool. Unfortunately I don't think you can train a guy to play with a nasty streak. Well unless you want to give him a heart transplant.

Also with Jordan its not like he can't dominate the post and push people around. I could use that agrument for McGee/thabeet but not Jordan.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 11:31 AM
David Harrison is gone after this season. It will be interesting to see what else happens with our roster ie do we trade Q6, Jeff Foster, Tinsley or IKE? What will we get in return? Drafting a big man is a crap shoot and it takes patience. Are they going to be Scott Haskin/Bryant Reeves/Luther Wright or Rik Smits? Keep in mind Spencer Hawes was the 10th pick last year. What this teams need is better defense so do we take Thabeet b/c he is the most potent shot blocker out of the bunch? If we miss Jordan and he turns into Bynum we made the wrong decision.
Ya, but Jordan is a HUGE gamble.. And with the team we have right now, gambling with our best pick on a guy that just doesn't seem to care, would be a horrible choice. He's a project and quite frankly, a project that doesn't seem to care enough about the game to ever be a dominate player.. He might, but it's a gamble that I personally think we shouldn't try. Go with odds and pick a guy that you know will play hard. My favorite guy that may be around is probably Westbrook. We desperately need a pg, especially one that plays defense, and this kid plays great defense, as well as is a smart offensive player.

Major Cold
04-09-2008, 11:32 AM
I like Arthur and Speights for this team. I love Love but not for this team and its current players.

I like Westbrook, Chalmers, and Lee.

owl
04-09-2008, 11:33 AM
Thank god. As long as it's not to us. Hopefully he can push down a Kevin Love-type to us.

Ok, I just totally clowned on Thabeet...but I'm wondering whether having Thabeet wouldn't allow us to use Diogu or Shawne at the 4. Both of those guys certainly can score so getting a defender-only wouldn't necessarily be a problem. Basically Thabeet would be doing what JO should be doing.

This is why I would take Thabeet. The Pacers are desperate for defense. So Thabeet or
Mcgee would be fine with me and I think they would contribute AT LEAST as much
as Harrison immediately. Plus if JO is here still I could see that helping both dramatically.

DisplacedKnick
04-09-2008, 11:33 AM
What players in the NBA today started out with no post game... and added a good one. Or couldn't shoot at all.... but became a good shooter.

Eric Snow went from being an abominable shooter to OK (not good).

But the real eye-opener was Ewing. He was gonna be a defensive stopper and rebounder but wasn't projected to be much of an offensive force. He turned himself into a dominant post player and one of the best jump-shooting centers in the league. I don't know if I'd exactly say he developed all that because he shocked everyone by scoring 20 ppg his rookie year but he sure wasn't projected to be able to be the player on that side of the ball that he was. IIRC, at Georgetown he had some post game (though it was mostly being taller and stronger) but not much of a shot.

Speed
04-09-2008, 11:39 AM
I think the shooting thing happens all the time if a guy puts in the work he can at least be average. Jason Kidd, who has since reverted to horrible, but when he first came in guys wouldn't guard him outside of 15 feet, then in his prime he could hit the three, not consistently, but some.

Tinsley isn't a good shooter, but enough you have to kinda guard him, he was atrocious when he came in. There's a ton of examples on that one. Watch Rondo, I bet even with his horrible shot he becomes serviceable eventually. Fred Jones, I'm not saying these guys are Kapono, but they do develop enough that you have to guard them.

Post moves, maybe, its such a loss art and its hard to be a career banger in the low post without getting beat up and your body wearing down eventually.

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 11:46 AM
This is why I would take Thabeet. The Pacers are desperate for defense. So Thabeet or
Mcgee would be fine with me and I think they would contribute AT LEAST as much
as Harrison immediately. Plus if JO is here still I could see that helping both dramatically.

What do you think of Speights if you want heart and defense. He fits the mold of athletic and the ability to be a center/pf which we love to play. He is already strong and NBA ready.

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 11:58 AM
My idea draft day. I hope/wish we package Tinsley and our current pick (outside of lotto) for a player and three future draft picks two first rounds and one second round. We trade down and take a Arthur (Kansas) or Courtney Lee in the late first round. Then we acquire a Joey Dorsey/DJ White in the early second round. All players are upper classman and ready to help.
This would be great b/c everybody knows what Dorsey/White will provide for a team. We should have no problem making the playoffs with these upgrades and we also have wiggle room trade deadline time.

OakMoses
04-09-2008, 12:13 PM
This is why I would take Thabeet. The Pacers are desperate for defense. So Thabeet or
Mcgee would be fine with me and I think they would contribute AT LEAST as much
as Harrison immediately. Plus if JO is here still I could see that helping both dramatically.

Here are some stats:

David Harrison's Junior Year:
31.6 mpg, 17.1 pts, 8.8 rebs, 2.9 blks, 63% FG

Javale McGee:
27.3 mpg, 14.1 pts, 7.3 rebs, 2.8 blks, 53% FG

DeAndre Jordan:
20.1 mpg, 7.9 pts, 6.0 rebs, 1.3 blks, 62% FG

Hasheem Thabeet:
31 mpg, 10.5 pts, 7.9 rebs, 4.5 blks, 60% FG

Statistically speaking, all of these guys were not as effective in college as Harrison was. I know that he never had their upside, but upside in this case simply means that they're all more athletic, none of them are more skilled than David was.

Here are David's stats from his rookie year (which, sadly, was his best statistical season:

43 games, 17.7 min, 6.1 pts, 3.1 rebs, 1.3 blks, 57% FG

I very highly doubt any of these young centers put up any better numbers than that next season.

Again, I'm not saying don't draft these guys, I'm just saying don't expect us to be a better team next season with any of these guys on the roster.

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 12:18 PM
What do you think of Speights if you want heart and defense. He fits the mold of athletic and the ability to be a center/pf which we love to play. He is already strong and NBA ready.

Do you agree then w/ Isiah about the days of the true big man becoming extinct in today's game. Eddie Curry is a dinosaur ....

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 12:27 PM
Eddy Curry is a really bad example but I understand your point. Certianly Yoa and Bynum are good examples that their not. As of right now the rules favor guard penetration and if a center is going to succeed he had better be smart and laterally quick.
I think its hard to find both of those. In our case we need a guy who can stay with his man in the paint but also provide weak side help.

I wouldn't agree with anything Isiah says.

themayhem87
04-09-2008, 12:28 PM
My idea draft day. I hope/wish we package Tinsley and our current pick (outside of lotto) for a player and three future draft picks two first rounds and one second round. We trade down and take a Arthur (Kansas) or Courtney Lee in the late first round. Then we acquire a Joey Dorsey/DJ White in the early second round. All players are upper classman and ready to help.
This would be great b/c everybody knows what Dorsey/White will provide for a team. We should have no problem making the playoffs with these upgrades and we also have wiggle room trade deadline time.

So who would be our point guard? If we don't draft a pg this draft (Augustin, Chalmers, Westbrook) I'll be pissed. It's been too long since we've drafted one and to trade tinsley would leave us with a waiver player (murray) at point

owl
04-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Here are some stats:

David Harrison's Junior Year:
31.6 mpg, 17.1 pts, 8.8 rebs, 2.9 blks, 63% FG

Javale McGee:
27.3 mpg, 14.1 pts, 7.3 rebs, 2.8 blks, 53% FG

DeAndre Jordan:
20.1 mpg, 7.9 pts, 6.0 rebs, 1.3 blks, 62% FG

Hasheem Thabeet:
31 mpg, 10.5 pts, 7.9 rebs, 4.5 blks, 60% FG

Statistically speaking, all of these guys were not as effective in college as Harrison was. I know that he never had their upside, but upside in this case simply means that they're all more athletic, none of them are more skilled than David was.

Here are David's stats from his rookie year (which, sadly, was his best statistical season:

43 games, 17.7 min, 6.1 pts, 3.1 rebs, 1.3 blks, 57% FG

I very highly doubt any of these young centers put up any better numbers than that next season.

Again, I'm not saying don't draft these guys, I'm just saying don't expect us to be a better team next season with any of these guys on the roster.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am making two assumptions when I say they can contribute as much as Harrison.
Number one, they are mentally stable and drug free.
Number two, they are not injured a good portion of their first 3 years.
David has been a huge disappointment considering the physical gifts he has,
but he has limitations also in that he has short arms and that is one of the reasons he fouls
a lot. He can't keep his body off the other player. You may be right about not contributing
much but the Pacers need to look past the end of their nose.
With that said I hope David can get himself together for his own benefit, regardless of
basketball.

I would take Mcgee or Thabeet but I would be very leary of Jordan

blanket
04-09-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm getting wary of all the draft prospects with 'upside' and 'potential' being projected around where we'll pick.

I'm leaning toward us trading down for two late first rounders instead, or at least acquring a second first rounder to go with our 11-15 pick so we have one project player and one instant contributor with less upside.

There are a number of players in the lower first round I'd target, depending on what we do at the end of the lotto, such as Lee, Chalmers, Lopez, Hudson.

indyblue47
04-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Well, I've had PC problems for a few days, but when did the NBADraft change from us getting Augustine to the P's taking the big McGee?

http://www.nbadraft.net/

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/javalemcgee.html

NBA Comparison: Andrew Bynum/Patrick OBryant
Strengths: Long athletic bigman who is absolutely bursting with potential ... Runs the floor exceptionally well ... Improving at a rapid pace on both ends of the floor. Has freakishly long arms: around a 7-6 wingspan which makes him a great rebounder and shot blocker ... Can really become a force defensively when he adds strength and discipline on opponent's shot fakes ... His length makes it extremely difficult for opponents to get shots over ... His offensive game is showing a lot of promise with developing back to the basket skills. He even shows some ability to face the basket and make drives or spot up ... Has a competitive spirit that is not apparent in many bigmen who picked up the game because of their size. A late bloomer who went underrecruited out of Chicago. McGee's parents were both professional basketball players so he has been around the game from a young age ... Shows solid form and touch on his shot ... Has a tremendous frame which should allow him to get much stronger and retain his great agility and athleticism ... Gives great effort and shows very good stamina for a bigman his age ... Added strength will give him better balance and make him a lot more effective imposing his will inside ... Has the potential to be a top 5-10 center in the league someday (if he's patient about entering the NBA) ... Has even shown the ability to knock down shots from college 3, no question influenced by the presence of Nick Fazekas last year ...

Weaknesses: Still must gain maturity. He gets frustrated far too easily and loses his composure quickly when calls go against him, or when he's struggling ... (Sounds a little like the last center the P's drafted) Still growing into his body and game, learning what he's capable of and steadily becoming a factor night in and night out ... Needs to develop some go to moves. A reliable jump hook would make him an absolute force ... Must improve from the free throw line (50% wont cut it). He has solid shooting touch and should be able to raise his FT shooting to at least 70-75 percent over time if he develops a consistent routine and works at it ... Should be wary of leaving school early. It's likely he would be a first rounder this year, but a third year in college would really help him in the long run as he would be much better prepared for the NBA and not run the risk of losing confidence and falling short of his full potential ...

Notes: JaVale's parents were both professional basketball players. His father, George Montgomery starred at Illinois and was a second-round draft pick in 1985 by the Portland Trailblazers. His mother Pamela McGee, and her twin sister, Paula, were All-Americans who led USC to NCAA National titles in 1983 and 1984 ... Pamela also played and coached in the WNBA and is now a high school coach in Sacramento ... In Javale's freshman season he saw little playing time playing behind WAC player of the year and NBA draft pick Nick Fazekas.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 01:16 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am making two assumptions when I say they can contribute as much as Harrison.
Number one, they are mentally stable and drug free.
Number two, they are not injured a good portion of their first 3 years.
David has been a huge disappointment considering the physical gifts he has,
but he has limitations also in that he has short arms and that is one of the reasons he fouls
a lot. He can't keep his body off the other player. You may be right about not contributing
much but the Pacers need to look past the end of their nose.
With that said I hope David can get himself together for his own benefit, regardless of
basketball.

I would take Mcgee or Thabeet but I would be very leary of Jordan
Ya, I agree with you. Thabeet would be my second choice to use the #11 pick.. Who wouldn't want a massive 7-3 defensive stud on your team that has plenty of potential for the offensive side as well?? Unless someone great falls to us like when Granger fell.. And I would be fine with taking McGee as well.. Westbrook is my first choice though.. We could really use him.

Don't overlook Thabeet just because he isn't good on offense now.. His defense alone is good enough to take him. But I am pretty sure, if he is put in the right situation(working out with JO), he could become a very solid, well round player.

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 01:47 PM
So who would be our point guard? If we don't draft a pg this draft (Augustin, Chalmers, Westbrook) I'll be pissed. It's been too long since we've drafted one and to trade tinsley would leave us with a waiver player (murray) at point

The Diener/Murray Combo is working well and I am also not opposed to signing another veteran Free Agent Point Guard. With Tinsley gone we clear up a lot of cap room. The whole deal with this trade is no team will give us two first round picks for our current pick this year and Tinsley? Just because Flip got cut by Detroit does not mean he is a bad player. Detroit has Rip/Chauncey and wanted to develop Stuckey and Affalo so long FLIP. Beno Udrich, Shaun Livingston, & Tyron Lue maybe short term solutions for our team at PG.

Rajah Brown
04-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Have we beaten a team with over 40 wins while being led by the
Diener/Flip combo ?

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Eddy Curry is a really bad example but I understand your point. Certianly Yoa and Bynum are good examples that their not. As of right now the rules favor guard penetration and if a center is going to succeed he had better be smart and laterally quick.
I think its hard to find both of those. In our case we need a guy who can stay with his man in the paint but also provide weak side help.

I wouldn't agree with anything Isiah says.

The East really lacks any great C outside of D Howard. But look at Seattle out West they tried forever to draft over a C at 7'0 and never landed anything of value except more ping pong balls.

Jonathan
04-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Have we beaten a team with over 40 wins while being led by the
Diener/Flip combo ?

Our record has improved drastically since the acquistion of FLIP. We have won nine out of 11 and that is GREAT. The whole thing about teams with 40 Wins i our west coast trip is over and we are playing Eastern conference teams and there are only four Eastern Conference teams with over forty wins right now in the Eastern Conference. I do not set the schedule but we are beating teams we should beat and not blowing big leagues.

PacerGuy
04-09-2008, 01:59 PM
I am for going big, even if we move tin's, but I can not see 1 team who I think will take him - Not 1!!! Can someone name me 1 team they honestly think would take Tin's? His contract is 1 yr too long for most wanting cap for '10.

Also, if we could get a mid-rd pick w/o giving up ours (JO-NJ?), I wouldn't mind trying to get 2 of the McGee/ Thabeet/ Jordan/ Hibbert (I still think he will have the most consistant career).
If you are going to take a gamble - "Go Big" m- figurally & litteraly. :)

Rajah Brown
04-09-2008, 02:22 PM
Well, Blake Griffin is officially returning to OU. That sucks !

MyFavMartin
04-09-2008, 02:43 PM
Can someone name me 1 team they honestly think would take Tin's?

NY Knicks - Trade for Jefferies and use him as a point forward.

Clippers- If they will take on Smush, one would think they would take Tinsley, who has talent and could address their PG issues as questions abound to Livingston's recovery. Trade for Tim Thomas.

Sacramento - Popular destination for Pacers. Faces loss of Beno in FA. If this happens, they may well be interested in Tinsley, but it might require the Pacers to take on a Kenny Thomas. I would want a 2nd rounder for this.

A lot of this would depend on what happens in the draft, which occurs before FA. These teams might address their needs in the draft...

Could package him with someone like Ike for a team looking for size.

PacerGuy
04-09-2008, 03:08 PM
NY Knicks - Trade for Jefferies and use him as a point forward.

Clippers- If they will take on Smush, one would think they would take Tinsley, who has talent and could address their PG issues as questions abound to Livingston's recovery. Trade for Tim Thomas.

Sacramento - Popular destination for Pacers. Faces loss of Beno in FA. If this happens, they may well be interested in Tinsley, but it might require the Pacers to take on a Kenny Thomas. I would want a 2nd rounder for this.

A lot of this would depend on what happens in the draft, which occurs before FA. These teams might address their needs in the draft...

Could package him with someone like Ike for a team looking for size.

Jefferies - God no! Bad player at a duplicate position!

LA Clippers - They have 1 injury prone PG in Livingstone, they don't want Tin's. I might do a TT deal because he expires 1 yr earlier & fits JOB's system, but is a duplicate player again.

Sac-Town - They will not want Tin's $, but KT is a disaster (worse then Tin's)& is payed more then Tin's (despite the 1 less yr.), so we would need to add more. Not sure that's worth it.

Will Galen
04-09-2008, 03:22 PM
Well, Blake Griffin is officially returning to OU. That sucks !

Link?

Yesterday they were saying he was 50-50.

Nevermind.

http://oklahoma.scout.com/2/744963.html
<table><tbody><tr><td colspan="3" class="storytitle"> Griffin to Return!!! </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="primaryimage" valign="top">http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/54/540106.jpg
Blake Griffin (Photo By: Getty Images)
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" width="3">
</td> <td valign="top">

Ever since the basketball season came to an end when the Sooners were knocked from the NCAA tournament star Blake Griffin has been trying to make the decision on whether he will turn pro or return. This afternoon he came to the decision that he will indeed be back for his sophomore season.
</td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3">
During a press conference this afternoon at the Lloyd Noble Center’s Kerr-McGee Courtside Club Blake Griffin (http://oklahoma.scout.com/a.z?s=146&p=8&c=1&nid=3485854) announced his intentions to return and play his sophomore season at Oklahoma (http://oklahoma.scout.com/) instead of entering the NBA draft, where he was a certain first-round selection.

This season Griffin's hard-nosed style of play helped lead OU back to the NCAA tournament. He led the team in minutes played and field goal percentage and nearly averaged a double-double for the season by averaging 14.7 points per game and 9.1 rebounds.

Griffin earned All-Big 12 honors for his play on the court this season and will be a strong contender to earn All-American type status with an equally strong performance in the 08-09 season.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

CableKC
04-09-2008, 03:27 PM
I'm getting wary of all the draft prospects with 'upside' and 'potential' being projected around where we'll pick.

I'm leaning toward us trading down for two late first rounders instead, or at least acquring a second first rounder to go with our 11-15 pick so we have one project player and one instant contributor with less upside.

There are a number of players in the lower first round I'd target, depending on what we do at the end of the lotto, such as Lee, Chalmers, Lopez, Hudson.
I agree on this.....unless Kevin Love is still available at the 12-13th spot....which I doubt...then everyone else is either a gamble/project or would be too high to draft at where we are picking.

I would much rather parlay the 12-13th pick into some pick later into a 18th to 22nd pick + some other trading asset ( draft pick / backup player ).

d_c
04-09-2008, 03:37 PM
I agree on this.....unless Kevin Love is still available at the 12-13th spot....which I doubt...then everyone else is either a gamble/project or would be too high to draft at where we are picking.

I would much rather parlay the 12-13th pick into some pick later into a 18th to 22nd pick + some other trading asset ( draft pick / backup player ).

All you're doing is turning a low-moderate percentage play (#12-13 pick) into a really low percentage play.

The draft itself is inherently a gamble. It's the futures' market. But in the long run, the good teams choose well enough often enough to make the draft worthwhile.

MyFavMartin
04-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Jefferies - God no! Bad player at a duplicate position!

LA Clippers - They have 1 injury prone PG in Livingstone, they don't want Tin's. I might do a TT deal because he expires 1 yr earlier & fits JOB's system, but is a duplicate player again.

Sac-Town - They will not want Tin's $, but KT is a disaster (worse then Tin's)& is payed more then Tin's (despite the 1 less yr.), so we would need to add more. Not sure that's worth it.

Yeah, because Tinsley can play when he's healthy, I don't think he's completely immovable, but obviously it's a matter of what do you want back for him. These trades might be appealing to the teams indicated or others so long as they're not giving up too much. No good offers and the Pacers may opt to keep him and try to trade him at the next deadline to a contender... who knows.

Larry was quoted on NPR that he wanted to be around this summer when the team was blown up. (This was a couple weeks ago.) Obviously he's not going to get much golfing or fishing in this summer.

Kaufman
04-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Speaking of draft, does anyone know who the Fever got today in the WNBA draft?

Naptown with any commentary on the pick?

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 04:41 PM
I have been reading about the prospects for drafting a center and the more I do the more I get concerned about how much stock we put into projected potential. I admit I get caught up in this but I want us to pick the best big man available that will meet our Pacers needs. I want him to be just a flat out competitor and not some kid looking for paycheck. Most importantly I want a defensive guy becuase I see that as one of our biggest needs.

So here are the centers who have been mentioned:


Roy Hibbert: Big and good basketball IQ. Slow and not very athletic. He also hasn’t progressed very much this senior year. Defensively, quoting draftexpress, “On the defensive end, Hibbert uses his length and size very well, especially in defending the post in man-to-man situations. Here he shows outstanding patience and isn’t often beat. AND “Hibbert is suspect on the perimeter, though, as his lateral quickness is lacking there, and at times, he chooses to stay home in the paint rather than drifting out to contest jumpers against more perimeter-oriented opponents he’s matched up with.”
<o></o>
Thabeet : Tall and could gain some weight. Runs the floor well. Not aggressive as you would want. Quoting draftexpress, “He does a very poor job in particular of stepping out onto the perimeter to hedge a screen or defend a big man who is capable of facing the basket,” and “Another problem here is that Thabeet doesn’t seem to be the most active player in the world, rarely going out of his area for rebounds, and not really showing the type of fire and passion you see out of players who just want the ball more than their opponents.”<o></o>
<o></o>
Jordan: I won’t go into too much detail here but just that he has a lot of potential and that’s about it. Quoting draft express. “<st1></st1><st1></st1>clearly lacks some toughness on the defensive end, as his motor is average and he doesn’t seem like one who is willing to do the dirty work.” <o></o>
<o></o>

Speights: Shorter than most but makes that up with long arms. Good offensive game and rebounding is solid but not great. Defense, quoting draftexpress, “His fundamentals here are extremely poor, showing very little in terms of a real defensive stance, giving up excessive space in the paint, biting excessively for pump-fakes, not being very effective rotating over to help out on team defense, and doing an extremely poor job hedging the pick and roll. His commitment here leaves a lot to be desired, as he’s often fairly lazy closing out on shooters, and generally doesn’t seem to put in the greatest effort on this end of the floor. A lot of that has to do with his overall focus-level, which just isn’t always there.”
<o></o>
McGee: Has to put on some serious weight to be a center in the league. Currently 237lb at 7’0. More of an offensive guy than defensive one. Quoting draftexpress, “McGee was scored on 66% of the time when being posted up in the paint (against the likes of <st1:city w:st="[/IMG]Fresno" state=""></st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Utah</st1:state> State, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Houston</st1></st1:city>, etc). Is light years away from being able to compete on an NBA (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/JaVale-McGee-1197/##) level defensively, if ever.<o></o><o></o>
<o></o>
Robin Lopez: A 7 footer with raw offensive skill as a sophomore but has steadily progressed on both ends of the floor. Defensively probably the best of the bunch. Quoting draftexpress, “He runs the court well, and seems to have solid toughness, not backing down from anyone, and not being afraid to throw his skinny frame around.” AND “He’s a fiery player, much more emotional that his brother, and will get caught up in moments when he looks possessed on the defensive end—getting low in his stance on the perimeter, smothering players with his length, contesting every shot, being extremely physical, and locking up the paint with his terrific shot-blocking skills.”<o></o>

PacerGuy
04-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Speaking of draft, does anyone know who the Fever got today in the WNBA draft?

Naptown with any commentary on the pick?

Whittington, 6'1" F, NC St.
she's a girl (they say) who can't dunk, but has good fundimentals. (shocking!)
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080409/SPORTS05/80409036/1004/SPORTS

blanket
04-09-2008, 05:11 PM
I have been reading about the prospects for drafting a center and the more I do the more I get concerned about how much stock we put into projected potential. I admit I get caught up in this but I want us to pick the best big man available that will meet our Pacers needs. I want him to be just a flat out competitor and not some kid looking for paycheck. Most importantly I want a defensive guy becuase I see that as one of our biggest needs. ...

The more consider the players projected for late-lotto this year, the more I think I'd prefer to trade down. I don't think the difference between 15 and 25 is that great in this year's draft, and if trading down can net us an additional pick to cover the gamble then I'd be all for it.

I think I'd target Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee, depending on where we'd pick.

Will Galen
04-09-2008, 05:33 PM
<o>:p</o>
Robin Lopez: A 7 footer with raw offensive skill as a sophomore but has steadily progressed on both ends of the floor. Defensively probably the best of the bunch. Quoting draftexpress, “He runs the court well, and seems to have solid toughness, not backing down from anyone, and not being afraid to throw his skinny frame around.” AND “He’s a fiery player, much more emotional that his brother, and will get caught up in moments when he looks possessed on the defensive end—getting low in his stance on the perimeter, smothering players with his length, contesting every shot, being extremely physical, and locking up the paint with his terrific shot-blocking skills.”<o>:p</o>

This guy.

I figure if his twin brother is going at three because of his offense, this guy can develop some. And from reports I've seen he did get better offensively this year.

Gamble1
04-09-2008, 05:58 PM
The more consider the players projected for late-lotto this year, the more I think I'd prefer to trade down. I don't think the difference between 15 and 25 is that great in this year's draft, and if trading down can net us an additional pick to cover the gamble then I'd be all for it.

I think I'd target Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee, depending on where we'd pick.

I pretty much made that list so guys wouldn't have to dig through all the analysis to find a good defensive guy.

MOst of the media experts agree with your point of view. I figure if their isn't a good point guard out their i.e Westbrook then lets get Lopez. He is the Jeff Foster with more potential to become a offensive threat. On top of that he doesn't look to be a liability off the court which can't be said for alot of them.

Kaufman
04-09-2008, 06:18 PM
Whittington, 6'1" F, NC St.
she's a girl (they say) who can't dunk, but has good fundimentals. (shocking!)
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080409/SPORTS05/80409036/1004/SPORTS


Maybe she could split time with the Pacers as a 2 guard
We need a starter

Major Cold
04-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Robin does not have the post presence that Brook has. It is obvious that he will have to spend some time in the NBDL. That would be the best for him.

Infinite MAN_force
04-09-2008, 08:02 PM
Sign me up on the Thabeet bandwagon, although from what I've heard from my sources, he's all but guaranteed to go top-10.

Im torn on this, Im thinking Mcghee now. He has at least shown more offensive skill.

My concern about thabeet is that his on-ball defense is lacking, love the size, love the shotblocking, but he is a little scary. He is the type I could see busting possibly.

Why do you think top 10? Every mock I have seen has him going late teens or around 20. I feel better about taking Thabeet at say 15 as opposed to 11.

Infinite MAN_force
04-09-2008, 08:06 PM
This guy.

I figure if his twin brother is going at three because of his offense, this guy can develop some. And from reports I've seen he did get better offensively this year.


He is one I have though about also, If we don't draft a center with our first pick I would love to figure out a way to get like a 20th pick or so and take Lopez. Foster with better size and shotblocking, and offensive potential. Less Risky than a guy like Thabeet if we are looking for a defensive center.

Would anyone consider trading foster for a late teens pick to take Lopez? We could go Westbrook-Lopez... I would be pretty happy with that.

RomanGabriel
04-09-2008, 08:15 PM
Anybody here know enough about Ronald Steele (Alabama PG) to ascertain if he'd be worth a 2nd round flier? I remember hearing lots of good things about him before he had the knee surgeries.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 09:48 PM
Well, Blake Griffin is officially returning to OU. That sucks !
Aw, crap.. That may totally screw up the choices that we had to draft.. That could make someone draft a guy that woulda been there if Griffin woulda declared.

Young
04-09-2008, 09:56 PM
This guy.

I figure if his twin brother is going at three because of his offense, this guy can develop some. And from reports I've seen he did get better offensively this year.

I would not be to pissed at taking Robin with our pick, well assuming we aren't like top 5 or something like that.

But really when you look at those big men I think Robin is a pretty good pick. He is a safe pick but one that I think can turn into a solid starter.

Naptown_Seth
04-09-2008, 09:56 PM
Not totally surprised on Griffin. Good kid, seems interested in proving some things and could help himself financially by giving it another year.

Honestly he had flashes that made you think Beasley a little bit. If he ends up a top 3 pick next year then it was a really smart move, and that seems within reason at least.


As I've been saying, for all our guessing and discussion of who goes where, it's all nothing till the declarations are done. A "loaded" draft can get thin in a hurry as some guys pursue other interests (ie, college goals) and others looks to improve their draft stock.

I can see the UCLA guys wanting another crack at it, and Collison might also be considering his draft situation. The thing is with all their PG recruits if Collison stays then Westbrook would seem even more likely to declare. And why not, his stock isn't going to get higher.

Naptown_Seth
04-09-2008, 09:58 PM
Robin does not have the post presence that Brook has. It is obvious that he will have to spend some time in the NBDL. That would be the best for him.
I agree. It's hard to figure with brothers like this, but it happens. Robin is a clear 2nd fiddle to Brook. I'd even have to consider Thabeet over R Lopez, along with several other bigs.

Unless people are talking round 2, and I can't believe he'd get to the Pacers 2nd pick. BTW, Dorsey might have a history of issues but I take him in a heartbeat over R Lopez.

I also like how DraftExpress has both Weaver and Bill Walker almost getting back to the Pacers in the 2nd round. Good luck with that. Walker might also have emotional issues, but I'll take his fire and talent in a heartbeat anywhere in round 2. If he's on the board in the 30's you've got to trade up to get him. I think he goes before guys like Lee personally.

Young
04-09-2008, 10:20 PM
Wondering what people would think about the Pacers trading the pick?

If the Pacers pick say 10-15 the prospects may not be that great. As of right now.

You look at the needs, a big man and a point guard. The only point i'd consider is DJ. As far as big men go there are some that we could get but how good of prospects are they really?

It's really early to think about this. But as things look right now there really isn't a prospect that stands out like hey he should be our guy. Hopefully if we don't make the playoffs we get lucky and get a high pick...ha yeah right.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 10:40 PM
Not totally surprised on Griffin. Good kid, seems interested in proving some things and could help himself financially by giving it another year.

Honestly he had flashes that made you think Beasley a little bit. If he ends up a top 3 pick next year then it was a really smart move, and that seems within reason at least.


As I've been saying, for all our guessing and discussion of who goes where, it's all nothing till the declarations are done. A "loaded" draft can get thin in a hurry as some guys pursue other interests (ie, college goals) and others looks to improve their draft stock.

I can see the UCLA guys wanting another crack at it, and Collison might also be considering his draft situation. The thing is with all their PG recruits if Collison stays then Westbrook would seem even more likely to declare. And why not, his stock isn't going to get higher.
Collison and Love both declared for the draft earlier today..

Young
04-09-2008, 10:41 PM
Collison and Love both declared for the draft earlier today..

That's a rumor. Neither has made an offical decision.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 10:51 PM
That's a rumor. Neither has made an offical decision.
Ok, thanks.. Saw it on an ESPN headline this mourning but was too busy to look into it.

Major Cold
04-09-2008, 11:44 PM
I like WAlker over CDR even.

Kofi
04-10-2008, 07:30 AM
Mayo and Donte Greene are both entering the draft.

blanket
04-10-2008, 09:06 AM
Mayo and Donte Greene are both entering the draft.

Plus DeAndre Jordan, Joe Alexander, and Anthony Randolph declared over the last day or two

Major Cold
04-10-2008, 09:38 AM
Well I think that this draft is going to be a more interesting draft than last year.

We should pull up last years assessments.

Robertmto
04-10-2008, 02:25 PM
Deepest draft in a while.

MyFavMartin
04-10-2008, 02:52 PM
I like WAlker over CDR even.

He declare?

Naptown_Seth
04-10-2008, 03:35 PM
I like WAlker over CDR even.
I agree.

As I've drummed into the ground, his on-court personality and even his streaky game are identical to Stephen Jackson. But then Jackson is an NBA starter. I have my own worries about attitudes enough to shy off guys like Beasley and Walker, but if it's pick 21 that you traded into and he's on the board...

At some point you have to work with these guys and mold them into your culture. You can't just scratch 35% of the draft on attitude issues.


He declare?
I haven't heard that he has yet.


Speaking of though, DJ Augustin hit Academic All-American the other day which was one of his main goals this year. His game has flaws but his "good kid" rating is through the roof.

Ownagedood
04-10-2008, 03:37 PM
Now that some more guys have declared maybe we will get a good player at #11.. I would think that Alexander would be top 10.

I also saw that Thabeet is unlikely to come out this year.. But he still hasn't made up his mind.

esabyrn333
04-10-2008, 03:57 PM
Speaking of though, DJ Augustin hit Academic All-American the other day which was one of his main goals this year. His game has flaws but his "good kid" rating is through the roof.

All I want out of this draft is one DJ Augstine. I just don't see how anyone could not like this kid. These are the kind of players that define what Indiana basketball is all about. The more I think about it the less I like the Idea of take a shot at a big with potential. I even have wavered a little and would not mind getting Love. But I will be very dissapointed if we don't get DJ. I would be happy to just take both and call it a day:happydanc

Ownagedood
04-10-2008, 04:05 PM
All I want out of this draft is one DJ Augstine. I just don't see how anyone could not like this kid. These are the kind of players that define what Indiana basketball is all about. The more I think about it the less I like the Idea of take a shot at a big with potential. I even have wavered a little and would not mind getting Love. But I will be very dissapointed if we don't get DJ. I would be happy to just take both and call it a day:happydanc
He just scares me.. Probabably because the ONLY game I saw him play in was the one he played horribly in.. Against Memphis. So I don't really know how he normally plays.. I just saw a very bad PG in that game.

Jonathan
04-10-2008, 04:14 PM
We need a shut down defender at PG; is that DJ Augustine?. I do not see Tinsley getting traded in the off season. Tinsley will be our starting PG next season.

Dece
04-10-2008, 05:04 PM
Every year around draft time it's the "deepest draft" without fail people claim and believe this. It's kind of an amazing phenomenon really.

Gamble1
04-10-2008, 05:21 PM
Robin does not have the post presence that Brook has. It is obvious that he will have to spend some time in the NBDL. That would be the best for him.

You've successfully described all the bigs that we could draft. Bravo.
Seriously though, Robin is a defensive big and if we are going to keep Ike then whats the point of getting a project offensive big.

I wouldn't mind getting Love but the odds of that happening is slim.

Thabeet I use to be high on is starting to look very questionable.

I would much rather draft a guy with a heart and size than take a risk with half of bigs out there.

For the DJ lovers out their. HE IS SMALL and HE IS NOT CHRIS PAUL.

I will not advocate another generation of Mighty Mouse on the Pacers.

Gamble1
04-10-2008, 05:30 PM
Every year around draft time it's the "deepest draft" without fail people claim and believe this. It's kind of an amazing phenomenon really.

This may be the most average draft after pick 6.

Shade
04-10-2008, 05:50 PM
Here is who the mocks currently have the Pacers picking:

NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/): Javale McGee

DraftExpress: (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2008/) Anthony Randolph (though they still have the Pacers at #9; they have Augustin going at #11)

ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2008/mockdraft): DJ Augustin

InsideHoops (http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-mock-draft.shtml): DJ Augustin (though they still have the Pacers at #9; they have Gallinari going at #11)

HoopsHype (http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm): DJ Augustin

croz24
04-10-2008, 05:57 PM
mayo, randolph, gordon, greene, jordan all could slip past #6. i'd call that better than average.

croz24
04-10-2008, 06:00 PM
augustin would be the biggest draft mistake we could make...

rexnom
04-10-2008, 06:37 PM
I don't see the Pacers passing on Augustin, on the prayer that he'll be a decent starter at some point if nothing else.

Kofi
04-10-2008, 07:01 PM
I'd take Westbrook and develop him into a scoring point guard in the mold of a Tony Parker or Mo Williams.

Another possibility is working out a deal with Minnesota. If the Wolves pickup Derrick Rose, they may be open to moving Randy Foye, and our pick would have to be very enticing to them. Our 1st and Ike to Minny for Foye seems plausible.

croz24
04-10-2008, 07:06 PM
if minny lands rose, i'd rather offer up our pick + granger and see if they bite...

rexnom
04-10-2008, 07:50 PM
if minny lands rose, i'd rather offer up our pick + granger and see if they bite...
Hmm...our only chance to get Rose would be to get him in a trade with the number two team in the draft.

If we get say Love and R. Lopez, would Minny think about a Love, Granger, Lopez for Rose deal?

d_c
04-10-2008, 08:11 PM
Hmm...our only chance to get Rose would be to get him in a trade with the number two team in the draft.

If we get say Love and R. Lopez, would Minny think about a Love, Granger, Lopez for Rose deal?

They probably wouldn't. And that's even assuming you'd be able to get both Love and RLopez to begin with. I could see the Wolves dealing Foye in that situation, though.

Really, if Deron Williams and Chris Paul didn't exist, Rose would probably be the best PG prospect since Baron Davis/Steve Francis. And that draft was nearly 9 years ago That's some hard to find stuff. Any team with the chance to nab Rose knows it's a rare oppurtunity and if they pass on it in favor of something else, it's probably going to be a long while before they see another chance.

rexnom
04-10-2008, 08:20 PM
They probably wouldn't. And that's even assuming you'd be able to get both Love and RLopez to begin with. I could see the Wolves dealing Foye in that situation, though.

Really, if Deron Williams and Chris Paul didn't exist, Rose would probably be the best PG prospect since Baron Davis/Steve Francis. And that draft was nearly 9 years ago That's some hard to find stuff. Any team with the chance to nab Rose knows it's a rare oppurtunity and if they pass on it in favor of something else, it's probably going to be a long while before they see another chance.
Well, different outlook then...in that scenario, how do we get Foye? Or, if Memphis is "stuck" with Rose, how do we get Conley?

d_c
04-10-2008, 08:37 PM
Well, different outlook then...in that scenario, how do we get Foye? Or, if Memphis is "stuck" with Rose, how do we get Conley?

Don't know. I'm sure Foye could be had if you offered Granger, but I don't think Bird would do that nor should he. The Pacer pick I suppose would be one possibility, but I don't know if Minnesota would trade a kid they liked who they drafted #7 overall just a couple years ago for a #11 or 12 pick.

Gets trickier with Memphis. They won't take on any players with long deals. I think Memphis would auction off Conley to the highest bidder if they landed Rose.

rexnom
04-10-2008, 08:41 PM
Don't know. I'm sure Foye could be had if you offered Granger, but I don't think Bird would do that nor should he. The Pacer pick I suppose would be one possibility, but I don't know if Minnesota would trade a kid they liked who they drafted #7 overall just a couple years ago for a #11 or 12 pick.

Gets trickier with Memphis. They won't take on any players with long deals. I think Memphis would auction off Conley to the highest bidder if they landed Rose.
I wonder if Shawne + 2008 pick would be enough for Conley. What if we threw in Ike as well?

d_c
04-10-2008, 09:04 PM
I wonder if Shawne + 2008 pick would be enough for Conley. What if we threw in Ike as well?

I dunno. Bird would obviously make an offer like such. You'd have to ask Memphis, but if they put Conley on the table, they would get a lot of offers.

For example, Portland tried getting Conley last year and they still need a longterm PG. They could easily offer their #1 (which won't be much lower than the Pacers') plus the rights to Rudy Fernandez and then throw in something like Martell Webster or Travis Outlaw as well. Or at least that's what I'd try if I was Kevin Pritchard.

It would just depend on what else would be out there. Remember, guys like Conley and Foye are young and cheap and the teams that have them won't feel as though they have a gun to their head to trade them if they ever got Rose. They would just take their time since they'd be the ones that have what other people want.

Gamble1
04-10-2008, 09:26 PM
I figure Ike an the 2008 is enough for Conley. If you give williams that is too much and your reaching.

d_c
04-10-2008, 09:32 PM
I figure Ike an the 2008 is enough for Conley. If you give williams that is too much and your reaching.

The problem is that you're not figuring the other offers Memphis would get for Conley, which would be numerous. The #1 + Ike might not nearly be enough if someone offers something better.

Memphis is a young team that's going to be rebuiding for awhile anyways. It's not as if they have to jump on the first offer they see.

Kofi
04-10-2008, 09:36 PM
I'd prefer Foye to Conley. Mike is small and he can't shoot. Memphis clearly reached taking him #4. He's not much better a prospect than D.J. Augustin.

Major Cold
04-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I'd prefer Foye to Conley. Mike is small and he can't shoot. Memphis clearly reached taking him #4. He's not much better a prospect than D.J. Augustin.

I agree to an extent. We all know that DJ and Mike have different skill sets.

esabyrn333
04-10-2008, 10:16 PM
A RealGM's View on DJ Augustine they have us picking him.

11. D.J. Augustin
Point Guard. Texas

Augustin is preposterously quick and nimble with the dribble, maintaining it effectively to create shots for himself and teammates with his gunslinger mentality. He would have struggled in the Derek Harper hand-check era, but he should be an effective NBA point guard in the way Tony Parker and Chris Paul have become All-Stars.

Despite being so short, Augustin is able to get shots over taller defenders and also has a superior perimeter shot than the two similar bodied NBA point guards just mentioned.

Defending bigger (i.e. stronger) point guards like Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups will clearly be a problem, but he is a crafty player and should be able to use his quickness to disrupt said players before and after they catch the ball in the post. Despite being so slight, he is well-built and can withstand physical play.

His fundamentals as a help defender are highly refined, and he is very pesky and will steal a ball or two every single night.

Augustin’s intangibles are phenomenal. He is the son of a schoolteacher and finished the fall semester with a 4.0 grade point average. He is fearless in the air and is never reluctant to make a big play in clutch situations.

He is an extremely safe pick for any team (particularly an up-tempo Western Conference club) looking to draft a point guard in the middle of the first round.

HOF: 5%
All-Star: 35%
Starter: 85%
Rotation Player: 99%

Infinite MAN_force
04-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I agree to an extent. We all know that DJ and Mike have different skill sets.


Conley is a better athlete, DJ is a better shooter. Both are kind of small, Conley is taller and DJ has a stronger build. Both have very strong PG skills, I might give the edge to Conley though.

Conley had better showings against NBA talent last year, like in the championship game. He has not been amazing this year but he is pretty young, there is a lot of room to grow. A player can work on their jumpshot and get better.

I think Conley is the better prospect, he would be good PR too.

CableKC
04-11-2008, 02:48 AM
I know that we need a PG to play ahead or next to Dienter....but I really don't look forward to drafting Augustine and having the smallest PG rotation in the league that every PG can continually abuse on the offensive end every night. I still have nightmares of Hinrich continually posting up Diener in the paint and dropping 20+ points on us.

If all the players that will likely be available after the 12th pick.....which ones are best at creating shots for the rest of the team?

It would seem that we need a Playmaker more then anything on this team.

Speed
04-11-2008, 07:21 AM
I figure Ike an the 2008 is enough for Conley. If you give williams that is too much and your reaching.


Do they not like Conley, I figured he had much much more value just based on potential. This surprises me. I'd think it would take a bunch more than Shawn and a number 1 to get him.

Jose Slaughter
04-11-2008, 08:32 AM
http://www.realgm.com/src_feature/1205/20080410/2008_nba_mock_draft_version_60_(post_tournament_ed ition)/

By Christopher Reina


1. Michael Beasley
Power Forward. Kansas State

Very explosive in the post, Beasley is NBA-ready to bang and score. He scores at a tremendously effective rate despite the constant collapse of double-teams when he touches the ball. He’ll shoot a turnaround fadeaway jumper if his man sags off, and he’ll dribble into a spin move if his man gets too close. He can finish with his right hand within five feet and has outstanding awareness of where he is on the floor.

His catch-and-shoot ability, especially when roving the baseline, is tremendous. He also does a good job of coming off screens, using them to free up his jumper.

Beasley is excellent at finding the vulnerabilities of a defense when he moves without the ball. Even more remarkable is how he always has his hands facing the ball, readying for a pass.

HOF: 75%
All-Star: 90%
Starter: 99%
Rotation Player: 99%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Derrick Rose
Point Guard. Memphis

If Michael Beasley is pick 1A in this mock, Rose and his invitation to the legendary point guard club (LPGC) is pick 1B. Rose would be/should be the top pick if the Sonics, Wolves and Knicks win the lottery and if I were starting a franchise from scratch he would unquestionably be my pick over Beasley.

Rose is a point guard in the truest sense of the word and was the clear go-to player on a Memphis team that was just seconds away from a National Championship.

He creates wide-open shots with his dribble penetration, as there is nobody in the world he couldn't beat off the dribble.

The biggest concerns on Rose, more than his developing jumpshot in my opinion, is he appears to be a rhythm player at this state of his development and is ineffective when not in rhythm.

HOF: 80%
All-Star: 90%
Starter: 99%
Rotation Player: 99%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Jerryd Bayless
Point Guard. Arizona

Bayless initially looked like he was a long ways away from being comfortable on the college floor, but that has very quickly disappeared and he has begun showing his amazing promise. What has and will be the most immediately impressive aspect of his game is his extreme elevation on jumpers. It really is extraordinary and makes it possible for the 6-3 guard to be a shooting guard. He is a remarkable shooter off the dribble, but his play without the ball has been an unexpected bonus. He works hard without the ball and comes off screens, catches the ball and shoots in one fluid motion. Because of the elevation, he is able to spot an open teammate while taking the shot and get him the ball for an easy lay-up.

The injury to Nic Wise allowed Bayless to play more point guard this season, which helped his stock immensely since that will be his primary position in the NBA. He has excellent vision and draws fouls especially well when he penetrates. Bayless also has the athleticism to play quite a bit of Monta Ellis-style off guard.

HOF: 40%
All-Star: 75%
Starter: 99%
Rotation Player: 99%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Brook Lopez
Power Forward. Stanford

For a team looking for a well-developed offensive game at center, Brook Lopez is the 2008 Draft’s best option.

I’m not sure if he will have the strength and athleticism to do this so easily in the NBA, but the way he seals his man and gets his body ready to immediately score while a pass is on its way is remarkable. This anticipation allows him to score before off-ball shot blockers and sagging perimeter defenders can come to assist his man.

His touch around the hoop out of the post is terrific and is of course something that can’t be taught.

HOF: 8%
All-Star: 35%
Starter: 85%
Rotation Player: 98%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. O.J. Mayo
Shooting Guard. USC

In an NBA in which very few players can create their own offense, Mayo will be elite (as long as he is not guarded by Russell Westbrook).

He creates separation off the dribble to generate space to get his jumper off, but what is more impressive and refined is his knack for preserving his dribble, squaring up in a triple-threat position with purpose and intent. He is able to back defenders up with jab steps, which sets things up for when he does put the ball on the floor, where he is highly imaginative, utilizing a wide array of moves to score.

Though shorter and slightly less athletic than both Jordan and Bryant, Mayo is headed for this type of individual career.

Despite a history of character issues, from every moment I've seen, his on-floor character appears impeccable. He plays the game in a very stoic yet passionate manner.

He also has been a much more committed defender than many were expecting.

HOF: 30%
All-Star: 70%
Starter: 95%
Rotation Player: 99%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Marreese Speights
Power Forward. Florida

If his performances as a freshman in limited playing time weren’t encouraging enough, he was tremendous both on tape and in the stat sheet for a rebuilding Florida team as a sophomore.

With impeccable strength, athleticism and balance, there may not be a power forward prospect in college basketball outside of Michael Beasley who is more NBA-ready, yet also shows enough room for improvement to develop into an All-Star.

His conditioning has been an issue and he is typically limited to short floor stints, but it is due to how amazingly active he is on both sides of the floor and at all times. Speights’ in-game work ethic is as impressive as any player on any level.

In the post, Speights could use a little more variation with his moves but has a nice skill set here already. He has a baby hook and can finish with strength and touch with either hand. He doesn’t rush himself, has great balance, and will draw contact and finish and 1’s.

Speights' shot isn’t at the level of a Darrell Arthur, but he has very good mechanics and a natural touch. He is confident from 15-feet in on the baseline and on the elbow.

Speights is a lunch-pail worker on the offensive glass with the skills and physicality to make him elite.

He is almost like a hockey player when he boxes out because he is so aggressive. Quite simply, he is as physical on the glass as any player I’ve seen in a long time.

He quickly looks for the outlet pass when catching a defensive rebound, wasting very little time largely because he is so sure-handed. He’ll even look to advance the ball ahead towards halfcourt if a guard can get open to trigger a transaction bucket.

HOF: 10%
All-Star: 55%
Starter: 90%
Rotation Player: 97%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Russell Westbrook
Combo Guard. UCLA

Westbrook may very well be the best athlete in this year’s draft and is probably the best defender. He won the Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year award over senior Kyle Weaver and teammate Darren Collison. He is a lockdown, suffocating on-ball defender and will be so immediately upon his arrival in the NBA. He is so quick laterally and is also incredibly strong. Westbrook will also be a very good help defender, particularly as a shotblocker at the guard position.

He needs to reel in many aspects of his offensive game, but he has shown flashes of great sophistication as a shooter, dribbler and passer. He can create space off the dribble for his jumper and can also beat his man to get into the lane at will where he is a superb finisher. When he gets the ball into the paint, he is patient and controlled.

His closing speed when he gets closer to the basket is more impressive than any other player in this draft and he is already a YouTube dunk legend. He will never be a great perimeter shooter, but he should become a mid-range star in the Dwyane Wade mold if he just relaxes his mechanics slightly.

HOF: 12%
All-Star: 45%
Starter: 90%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Anthony Randolph
Power Forward. LSU

The aspect of Randolph’s game that jumps out at any observer is how skilled he was at triggering LSU’s transition game. After collecting a blocked a shot or rebound, Randolph will use his remarkably quick dribble for a player of his height to initiate their early offense. He will look to create his own shot, find an open teammate, or slow it down to setup the halfcourt offense. His decision-making in this area is very mature.

In the halfcourt, Randolph has shown equal sophistication in the post as he has on the pick and pop/pick and roll. Randolph has excellent vision as a passer in the post. He finds open spot-up shooters and has the physical tools to deliver passes to the opposite side of the floor if need be.

When Randolph comes out to the perimeter to set a screen, he shows an ability that you wouldn’t really expect from an 18-year-old. His footwork could use some polish, but he pops into space well and is extremely confident (almost too confident because he needs to reel in his shot selection a bit) with his shot. He has good form and consistently hits shots from 10 to 18 feet out.

As he nears the rim, Randolph attacks the rim as well as anyone. He is slinky long and doesn’t fear going to the rack on anyone.

Defensively, Randolph is already a very skilled shot blocker. He can block shots with either hand and in on-ball as well as help situation. I wouldn’t classify Randolph as a preternatural shot-blocker, but he is certainly skilled and will block shots at any level when motivated. What separates Randolph from truly great shot-blockers is being consistently in a position on the floor to block or at least affect shots. Too many of Randolph’s blocks are simply when he fortuitously finds himself within position to reach the ball.

This issue of court awareness also applies to Randolph as a rebounder. He relies too heavily on his athleticism and length instead of anticipating where misses will bounce, as well as not aggressively putting a body on his man when he boxes out.

HOF: 15%
All-Star: 40%
Starter: 80%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. Eric Gordon
Shooting Guard. Indiana

With his exceptional handle in the halfcourt, Gordon generates separation from his defender and particularly is infatuated with the step back jumper. His jumper is world class for a player of his age: it is very fluid, his release is high and is quite compact. His range comfortably extends to about 25-feet.

Not just a perimeter shooter, he is equally content to drive to the basket when defenders try to take away his jumper. He gets deep into the paint after shaking defenders with remarkable change of pace moves, invites and even generates contact and is strong enough to finish despite a hard foul. Strong and agile, he has the ability to contort his body and get his shot off.

Gordon defines the term ‘pure scorer.’

While maintaining the dribble, Gordon has exhibited excellent vision for knowing where everyone on the floor is stationed. Although he doesn't have the passing abilities of a true point guard, he has shown glimpses of strong promise in this area.

When he doesn’t have the ball, Gordon is sometimes a little too idle and stationary. He could get a few more open looks per game if he worked harder to move without the ball. Gordon is so adept at creating his own shot that he hasn’t really needed help in getting them, so this is pardonable for now, but is a facet of his game he eventually will need to address.

His height and weight are two issues that will plague him and slightly limit his ceiling. He is too short to be a true shooting guard, and Gordon fully realizes he will have to develop into a point guard at the NBA level. Scoring guards of his height like Dwyane Wade, Gilbert Arenas and Ben Gordon are all athletically superior to Gordon, though like a Carmelo Anthony, he is exceptionally ‘basketball athletic,’ especially with the ball.

Ultimately, the imperative for Gordon’s career (and draft value) will be if he can consistently score against long NBA defenders.

HOF: 10%
All-Star: 45%
Starter: 90%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. Danilo Gallinari
Small Forward. Italy

Gallinari is an improving shooter, but his feel for the lane and ability to handle the ball is exceptional. He would be a top-flight point guard prospect if he were 6-2. He has the ability and confidence to play multiple positions on the NBA level. With such pure instincts, he would fit in on any team, no matter if he improves his athleticism or not.

HOF: 4%
All-Star: 20%
Starter: 80%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11. D.J. Augustin
Point Guard. Texas

Augustin is preposterously quick and nimble with the dribble, maintaining it effectively to create shots for himself and teammates with his gunslinger mentality. He would have struggled in the Derek Harper hand-check era, but he should be an effective NBA point guard in the way Tony Parker and Chris Paul have become All-Stars.

Despite being so short, Augustin is able to get shots over taller defenders and also has a superior perimeter shot than the two similar bodied NBA point guards just mentioned.

Defending bigger (i.e. stronger) point guards like Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups will clearly be a problem, but he is a crafty player and should be able to use his quickness to disrupt said players before and after they catch the ball in the post. Despite being so slight, he is well-built and can withstand physical play.

His fundamentals as a help defender are highly refined, and he is very pesky and will steal a ball or two every single night.

Augustin’s intangibles are phenomenal. He is the son of a schoolteacher and finished the fall semester with a 4.0 grade point average. He is fearless in the air and is never reluctant to make a big play in clutch situations.

He is an extremely safe pick for any team (particularly an up-tempo Western Conference club) looking to draft a point guard in the middle of the first round.

HOF: 5%
All-Star: 35%
Starter: 85%
Rotation Player: 99%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12. DeAndre Jordan
Center. Texas A&M

As it stands now, Jordan is a long ways away from being an effective professional basketball player, but his size and athleticism show a lot of promise. His motor isn’t as good as you’d like to see from a big like Jordan and is perhaps more of a concern than the massive scaffolding that surrounds his game.

Jordan is quick in transition and has good fundamentals in the post, already doing well to seal defenders. He invites contact in the post and has nice touch to the rim. His hands on the catch are extremely average at best. He sometimes either drops easy passes or needs to take a gather dribble before going up to the rim after the catch.

He is more of a scorer than a shotblocker/rebounder at this point in his development. He isn’t particularly quick at finding the outlet man upon grabbing a rebound and could become more consistent at boxing out.

HOF: 5%
All-Star: 20%
Starter: 70%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13. Darren Collison
Point Guard. UCLA

Collison has been a reluctant outside shooter, almost hesitant and lacking of confidence this season and has also sometimes been a second slow with the pass. As always, he is not turnover prone and does well at drawing help defenders in order to free up teammates.

His balance and control with the dribble, no matter what the speed is outstanding. He is an acrobatic and inventive scorer and does a good job at using his body to protect the ball when driving to the hoop.

Defensively, he is as good as advertised, though his lack of height will put him at a disadvantage against taller point guards. But for his size, Collison is an effective rebounder.

HOF: 1%
All-Star: 10%
Starter: 70%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

14. Darrell Arthur
Power Forward. Kansas

Arthur has a remarkable court awareness as he is almost always in an ideal position on both ends of the floor. He posts with purpose; constantly trying to seal his man and can finish well with either hand. Arthur is also a good passer out of the post and pretty much anywhere else on the floor. His ball-handling does need a great deal of more work.

He is very athletic, sprinting the floor with gusto, beating his man down the floor for easy transition buckets. His jump shot is far from developed, but shows nice promise.

HOF: 3%
All-Star: 15%
Starter: 70%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15. Kevin Love
Power Forward. UCLA

Love will continue to be one of the most intriguing prospects of this class all the way up to draft night. The aspects of his game that people rave about (passing, low post moves, feel for game), are universally heralded, while the genuine concerns (lack of length, quickness, elevation), are cited with equal passion.

Cut both sides right down the middle and I think that’s where you will find Love; he isn’t a top-five caliber pick (especially not this year) and he won’t be an ineffective bust.

He will be an effective rebounder and passer, there is no doubt about those two things, so his value in the transition game is guaranteed.

But how well Love will fare in the post is something that we will need to just get there and see. Love can seal just about any defender and when he does he’s lethal. He seals his man for little baby hooks and straight power moves to the glass. But when he isn’t low enough in the block and has to go over taller defenders, Love struggles. This is where he will need to use his abilities as a passer to kick the ball back out or to re-post.

Finally, one area of his skill set that is often overlooked is how phenomenal he will be on the pick and roll/pick and pop. With his wide body, Love’s screens will be more than just an token obstacle and his footwork here is very refined whether it’s rolling to the basket for popping for a shot up to 20 feet away from the bucket.

HOF: 5%
All-Star: 25%
Starter: 80%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16. Nicolas Batum
Small Forward. France

With ample athleticism, an absurdly long wingspan and well-developed skills in nearly every aspect of the game, Batum could certainly develop into the best player on an NBA team. The questions regarding his motor and aggressiveness to dominate appear to be his biggest obstacle between being good and being great.

Batum has NBA range on his effective, albeit flawed jumper.

HOF: 2%
All-Star: 15%
Starter: 35%
Rotation Player: 70%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17. Donte Greene
Small Forward. Syracuse

Like Beasley, Greene is a 6-9 combo forward with an excellent inside/outside game. He is a very powerful dunker who attacks the rim, but also shoots the 3-point shot well. Because he does shoot the 3-pointer well, he tends to fall in love with the shot and force too many very bad attempts. His poor shot selection directly causes his poor shot percentage.

He has good technique on the pick and roll and this will be one of his most valuable assets in the NBA and where the majority of his shots should come from.

HOF: 9%
All-Star: 25%
Starter: 70%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18. Roy Hibbert
Center. Georgetown

Hibbert has become one of the best passing big men in college basketball. He instinctively knows how to make crisp passes to cutters because of his experience in John Thompson III’s hybrid Princeton offense. His footwork on the pick and roll is very good and he has excellent vision and anticipation for where his teammates and their defenders will be.

He unquestionably struggles against better/taller defenders, but overall is strong with the ball and is effective with his baby hook or even a 10-foot in jumper.

His biggest weakness is unfortunately an incurable one, as it is his hands. Hibbert too frequently must take an unnecessary gather dribble when catching the ball before he goes to the basket.

Defensively, he will be altering many more shots than he blocks. He defends the high pick well and will be a good team defensive player though he sometimes loses sight of his man.

Most important beyond his size is the fact that Hibbert is a coachable player who is very hard-working and wants to improve.

HOF: 2%
All-Star: 10%
Starter: 55%
Rotation Player: 95%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

19. Javale McGee
Center. Nevada

Though his first step is undoubtedly on the slow side, he is a very athletic 7-footer once he gets moving. Initial looks are to liken him to a classical center, but his ability to pass and shoot from about 15 feet in (though he will shoot from 20 feet) is more reminiscent of a European player than a homegrown American talent.

He is a good finisher, particularly in the open floor.

Ineffective guarding the post one-on-one, both from behind and fronting and his overall commitment to defense needs improvement, but he should become a good shotblocker if motivated.

HOF: 1%
All-Star: 20%
Starter: 40%
Rotation Player: 70%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

20. Jason Thompson
Power Forward. Rider

When watching how smooth and skilled Thompson can be on game films, it is easy to forget that he is a solid 6-10. His fundamentals and feel for the game are as fine-tuned as any college prospect, but his future raises question marks due to playing in the MAAC.

The competitive workouts will be especially important for Thompson since he will finally be judged against major conference talent and I expect him to be impressive. He will be picked by a playoff team that already has their franchise players, so Thompson will be asked to plug holes at the four and five and be as versatile of a rebounder, shotblocker, passer and 10-foot jump shooter as he truly is.

HOF: .5%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 30%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21. Earl Clark
Small Forward. Louisville

Clark will be an impact player on both sides of the ball, particularly with his shotblocking and overall versatility. He makes very good decisions as a passer, not trying to do too much at inopportune times. He is always very well balanced and has excellent hands.

Beyond being an incredible leaper, he has a great motor on both sides of the floor and frequently beats his man down the floor in transition.

HOF: 4%
All-Star: 10%
Starter: 45%
Rotation Player: 80%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

22. Chase Budinger
Small Forward. Arizona

Budinger was of course a very good scorer as a freshman, but the gains he has made in regards to his ball-handling, defense (particularly help defense) and strength have been substantial. He is a far better all-around player now, though he still has a ways to go to make a sizable impact when not scoring. The ways in which he disappears in games is disconcerting and many were expecting him to be a far more dominant sophomore.

HOF: 1%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 35%
Rotation Player: 65%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

23. Brandon Rush
Shooting Guard. Kansas

There may not be a player in this draft who has better balance and body control when in the air. His in-air improvisational skills are remarkable and will make him an above-average transition player in the NBA. An excellent all-around player, his hardware contains just about every basketball skill (shooting, perimeter defense, passing, etc.) imaginable and he should immediately be a useful and versatile wing.

HOF: 2%
All-Star: 10%
Starter: 55%
Rotation Player: 80%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24. Serge Ibaka
Power Forward. TAU Vitoria

The Congo native is as fluid and skilled as he is athletic and he appears to have barely hit the surface of his potential. He has excellent touch from a variety of ranges and also glides through the air to block shots.

HOF: 10%
All-Star: 30%
Starter: 50%
Rotation Player: 75%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25. Hasheem Thabeet
Center. Connecticut

Thabeet showed tremendous improvement from his freshman to sophomore season and his decision to return to UConn was a valuable one. He now blocks shots with the proper hand, is quicker to elevate and has improved his overall timing. Thabeet will be very good on-ball and on the weakside, particularly because his help defense fundamentals are better than anticipated for a typical late to basketball player.

Offensively, he is better than advertised and could become a solid high post player. His instincts are there and though his consistency on his shot is nowhere near where it needs to be, his form is actually very good. His bad hands will never improve, nor go away and he still isn’t consistently aggressive, but as far as 7-3 projects go, Thabeet is one of the more promising ones.

HOF: .5%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 20%
Rotation Player: 50%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

26. Tyler Smith
Shooting Guard. Tennessee

Smith is a very athletic multi-dimensional wing who can do nearly anything on the floor. There is nothing he does, however, extremely well and needs to reel in and refine his game as a whole. He is at his best when he is getting deep into the lane and finishing strong or dropping assists, as his natural instincts are so strong.

He is extremely quick to the paint after getting the ball in the high post and is a warrior when he smells the rim, either going up strong or fighting for an offensive rebound.

HOF: .5%
All-Star: 10%
Starter: 40%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27. Shan Foster
Shooting Guard. Vanderbilt

Foster was one of the best perimeter shooters in college basketball this season and I believe he has a future in the NBA, if for no other reason because of how exceptionally well he moves without the ball. His subtle off-ball moves, especially after setting screens, are really fun to watch on tape.

He has really good balance shooting off the dribble and has a great motor, often beating everyone down the floor in transition for easy lay-ups.

It isn’t fair to hold Derrick Byars, who was the SEC Player of the Year ago out of Vanderbilt and is now playing in France, against him. This is the portion of the draft where good teams bring in helpful rotation players and aren’t valuing those proverbial upsides quite as much.

HOF: .1%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 20%
Rotation Player: 75%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

28. Kyle Weaver
Combo Guard. Washington State

Weaver is very long on defense and will be one of the best on-ball shotblockers at a guard position in the NBA. His decision-making is phenomenal, whether it is finding an open man on a dribble drive or his shot selection. He needs to build some strength, obviously, but his biggest adjustment will be no longer relying on finding a play out of nothing when he leaves his feet, something he was often prone to do in Pullman.

His defensive abilities and overall mental toughness will make him an immediate rotation player on a very good team.

HOF: 1%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 35%
Rotation Player: 85%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

29. Robin Lopez
Forward/Center. Stanford

Robin should benefit from a little bump drafting (Nascar term) as those who fall in love with the talent of Brook will look at the value the other Lopez brother (please no Ozzie Canseco comparisons) can give them later in the first round and early in the second.

Lopez is obviously the intangibles brother, with his abilities as a rebounder and shotblocker. He is exceptionally quick to the basket for rebounds, especially on the offensive end.

He has glimpses of a refined offensive game with a nice baseline jumper here and a graceful spin move for a lay-up there, but then he’ll get stripped in the post on one possession and badly throw the ball out of bounds on the next.

His athleticism and passion will eventually weigh out though as he polishes his mental consistency on the offensive end.

HOF: 1%
All-Star: 5%
Starter: 25%
Rotation Player: 70%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30. Chris Douglas-Roberts
Point Guard. Memphis

Because he has had such a tremendous collegiate career, I placed Douglas-Roberts in the final first round slot, but I continue to have reservations. Douglas-Roberts is a prime example of an excellent college shooting guard with questions about whether or not he has enough tools to succeed on the NBA level.

He needs to become stronger and is also far from being spectacular athletically, although his reverse dunk on a fastbreak against Gonzaga certainly helps dispel that notion. The lack of strength in his core causes him to not be as balanced as he needs to be since his center of gravity is too far out in front of him. In all seriousness, Douglas-Roberts would benefit from some serious yoga training.

What he does do well, of course, is score. He has improved his perimeter shot dramatically as a junior. His mid-range game is very good as he works well without the ball.

With the ball, he can beat his man off the dribble and get himself into the lane for pull-up jumpers and runners. He also goes well to the baseline before throwing up soft teardrops.

HOF: .5%
All-Star: 2%
Starter: 20%
Rotation Player: 50%

Anthem
04-11-2008, 08:48 AM
No international players in the lottery? Interesting.

If two or three guys declare, that drops some nice players down to us at #12.

indygeezer
04-11-2008, 08:48 AM
Dern! If Thabeet is still available at 25 I'd wanna make a trade to nab him. No, I din't say trade down.

Jose Slaughter
04-11-2008, 09:46 AM
No international players in the lottery? Interesting.

If two or three guys declare, that drops some nice players down to us at #12.

#10, 16 & 24 are internationals

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 09:55 AM
Jordan will be top 10 by workouts alone. He has to be hearing scouts say he has no heart. That will motivate him tohave a good workout.

I think Earl Clark is a reach at 1. I don't see Ibaka declaring this year.

Westbrook above Gordon still is shocking. It may be true, but I don't see it happening.

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 09:57 AM
I think we need to trade up and get Westbrook. But if Gordon is there you take him over DJ and Collison.

owl
04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
I know that we need a PG to play ahead or next to Dienter....but I really don't look forward to drafting Augustine and having the smallest PG rotation in the league that every PG can continually abuse on the offensive end every night. I still have nightmares of Hinrich continually posting up Diener in the paint and dropping 20+ points on us.

If all the players that will likely be available after the 12th pick.....which ones are best at creating shots for the rest of the team?

It would seem that we need a Playmaker more then anything on this team.

The team needs defense and DJ would be abused nightly. No thanks unless it is a later
pick in the draft. The Pacers go big as there are more prospects at 11-12 than guards.
Maybe Westbrook at that level but no one else.
The Pacers really need to get two picks in this draft.

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 10:16 AM
The team needs defense and DJ would be abused nightly. No thanks unless it is a later
pick in the draft. The Pacers go big as there are more prospects at 11-12 than guards.
Maybe Westbrook at that level but no one else.
The Pacers really need to get two picks in this draft.

IN order to get another pick we would have to hope that a team needs to drop picks...Suns style.

I could see Portland doing this...What picks do they have?

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Augustin leaves you with defensive issues. Augustin has shown a bad knack for calling his own number, usually on a pull up jumper.

Collison also calls his own number too much, typically after overdribbling the clock away and then driving to the hole. However he is a pretty feisty defender, but prone to gamble (ie, Armstrong on defense).

Tough call there. As stated endlessly by me I have zero faith in Westbrook as a true PG. He is an energy guy and I do agree he's one of the elite athletes in the draft. He'll defend, he will get tons of loose balls and scrap rebounds, and he will drive to the hole for his own score. But stopped in a half court set he's yet to show the awareness to space the floor for a play (other than feeding the post, and even then he doesn't move well to adjust the feed lane). If he had the outside shot then you could bring him in for the 2, but he hasn't shown that yet. He seems certain to stick in the NBA and if the Pacers didn't have Dun/Granger then I could see it a lot more.


BTW, looking at the RealGM mock Jose just posted in another thread, you can see just how insanely open this draft remains. And when you look at the mocks from mid-Jan to now it's even crazier.

Guys like Greene are way out, Budinger of course has fallen. Spreights in the top 10? Arthur over Love?

From mock to mock Augustin will go from 10th to 25th it seems. Rush, Chalmers, CDR all have big swings.

Frankly no one seems in agreement past the first 5-6. Even Mayo sees fluctuation, though I think his defense has earned him a top 6 slot when the draft finally hits.

Just wait till the camps and pro-days. "Oh, Billy Bob can only jump 2, he'll stink, but Billy Joe benched 34 reps, he's a sure thing". ;)

Crossing my fingers that Bird and Co. are up to the task of sorting out this mess. Even the trade possibilities discussed here show how difficult some moves are going to be, though clearly opportunities are out there for the smart GM to find.

Anthem
04-11-2008, 10:34 AM
#10, 16 & 24 are internationals
16 and 24 are, by definition, not in the lottery.

Missed #10, though.

Shade
04-11-2008, 10:37 AM
If we can move up only two spots to nab EJ, we must do it.

Any ideas what that would cost us? Ike and the #11?

Anthem
04-11-2008, 10:39 AM
If we can move up only two spots to nab EJ, we must do it.

Any ideas what that would cost us? Ike and the #11?
EJ might be there when we pick. This mock didn't take into account the team doing the drafting.

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 10:49 AM
Here is who the mocks currently have the Pacers picking:

NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/): Javale McGee

DraftExpress: (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2008/) Anthony Randolph (though they still have the Pacers at #9; they have Augustin going at #11)

ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2008/mockdraft): DJ Augustin

InsideHoops (http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-mock-draft.shtml): DJ Augustin (though they still have the Pacers at #9; they have Gallinari going at #11)

HoopsHype (http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm): DJ Augustin
Ford still has Griffin in the draft. I'm pretty sure not all these mocks are as up to date as we think. Same with the scouting reports. Always check the date they were written. What someone thought of a player pre-season has little meaning now.

I mean people thought Mayo would have no interest in defense and it was his biggest area of pride. People thougth Hibbert would really shine with that extra year. People thought EJ would be this great all-around guard with killer PG potential.


I would call this draft above average if everyone not declared does come out. Looks like you could get 15-20 solid rotation guys out of this, and possibly 2 legit superstars. It's not 1996 but it appears better than perhaps 1998 to 2000.

One thing about this year is that a lot of these picks faced each other, so you have a sense of what you are getting. We saw Rose vs Mayo, Collison, Augustin, Westbrook, we saw CDR vs Rush, we saw Lee vs Westbrook, we saw Love vs Lopez, Dorsey, and so on. A lot of these were in conference or NCAA tourney games.


So often you have several picks that just haven't played anyone, and the ones that have been steady but not spectacular (think Cleeves for example).

dervos
04-11-2008, 11:17 AM
I'd prefer Foye to Conley. Mike is small and he can't shoot. Memphis clearly reached taking him #4. He's not much better a prospect than D.J. Augustin.

Minny won't trade Rose (and shouldn't). If they get Rose, the fans at least would be very happy with one of Indy's young SFs + Indy's pick for Foye.

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 11:20 AM
EJ might be there when we pick. This mock didn't take into account the team doing the drafting.

That is why I think he will be gone by the time we pick.

MyFavMartin
04-11-2008, 11:20 AM
Minny won't trade Rose (and shouldn't). If they get Rose, the fans at least would be very happy with one of Indy's young SFs + Indy's pick for Foye.

Seems too much for Foye.

Rajah Brown
04-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Didn't Minny just use (or waste) a top-10 pick on Corey Brewer
last year ? Why would they trade for another young SF ?

Is Foye playing PG exclusively up there this year ?

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 11:25 AM
minny would want a young big next to Al more than anything else....

But a Williams may interest them..

MyFavMartin
04-11-2008, 11:25 AM
Didn't Minny just use (or waste) a top-10 pick on Corey Brewer
last year ? Why would they trade for another young SF ?

Is Foye playing PG exclusively up there this year ?

They have the Telfair/Jaric/Foye show going on and McCants has been getting time at SG.

Yes, they have Brewer, who I've read in reviews is getting much better as the season is going on and a very good defender.

Seem they would need an improvement at SG and PF or C, depending on what they consider Jefferson to be.

Young
04-11-2008, 01:39 PM
Foye has had some problems with injury this year I believe.

Although I must admit, I like him more than the other prospects the Pacers could be looking at. If the Timberwolves were willing to swap Foye for our pick I would probably be for it. Which if they get Rose I can see them willing to do that if they have their sights set on one of the bigs in this draft.

Young
04-11-2008, 02:13 PM
Some players the Pacers could look to trade the pick for...

Rashard McCants, I think the Timberwolves might rather move McCants then Foye.

Ben Gordon. I would LOVE to have Ben Gordon on this team. Love it. I think we would owe the Bulls more than our pick. Would be very difficult to get Ben since he will be a free agent I think.

This is all assuming we pick around the 10-12 range. I just don't like any one prospect enough. The bigs are unproven and DJ is really small would not improve our defense. I don't see a lot of opitions though as far as trading the pick, at least not good opitions. Way to early though I guess.

PacerGuy
04-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Some players the Pacers could look to trade the pick for...

Rashard McCants, I think the Timberwolves might rather move McCants then Foye.

Ben Gordon. I would LOVE to have Ben Gordon on this team. Love it. I think we would owe the Bulls more than our pick. Would be very difficult to get Ben since he will be a free agent I think.
Bird was high on both in the draft if my memory suits me. BG would be tops, but he is a FA, so a S&T would be necessary. Would love to get BG, TT & Filler for JO. Chi would then have JO & L.Hughes expiring in '10.

Major Cold
04-11-2008, 02:25 PM
Bird was high on both in the draft if my memory suits me. BG would be tops, but he is a FA, so a S&T would be necessary. Would love to get BG, TT & Filler for JO. Chi would then have JO & L.Hughes expiring in '10.


That is a huge contract we would have to sign him to to trade JO for him.

esabyrn333
04-11-2008, 02:39 PM
That is a huge contract we would have to sign him to to trade JO for him.


Hinreach, Gordon & TT For JO, pick, Diogu

Shade
04-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Why trade the pick for Ben Gordon when we may be able to trade up a couple spots and draft Eric Gordon?

If Larry really wanted Ben so badly, he'd probably be chomping at the bit to draft Eric, a player in the same mold with a higher ceiling.

Young
04-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Why trade the pick for Ben Gordon when we may be able to trade up a couple spots and draft Eric Gordon?

If Larry really wanted Ben so badly, he'd probably be chomping at the bit to draft Eric, a player in the same mold with a higher ceiling.

I guess I didn't think of moving up. I think that could be harder to do than trading for a proven guy like Gordon, JMO. Although I don't see how we could get Ben since trading our pick plus Jermaine for him doesn't make much sense to me.

I could see Bird wanting Ben. As someone said he was pretty high on him in 2004 when Ben was drafted (or I think that was the year atleast.) Ben is the proven player and if Bird wants to win now I can see him wanting him over say Eric Gordon.

Kaufman
04-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Ben = season tested, proven commodity

Eric = unproven college freshman

Shade
04-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Eric = has the potential to be a superstar

Ben = will never be a superstar

Eric is also a local product that could put some butts in seats.

D-BONE
04-11-2008, 04:12 PM
Anybody seen a lot of the Weaver guys from Washington State? Mentally tough and strong perimeter defense in a combo guard?

Sounds like something we could use by somehow acquiring a late first. I've seen very little of him though so I'm interested to see if anybody feels they can assess the assessment.

MyFavMartin
04-11-2008, 04:22 PM
Pacers are on the clock and if you had to choose between Speights, CDR, or Arthur, who would you choose?

(I'm assuming that we've the 12th pick and guys like Westbrook and EJ are gone.)

Which do you think is most likely not to be available at #12?

Shade
04-11-2008, 04:33 PM
Pacers are on the clock and if you had to choose between Speights, CDR, or Arthur, who would you choose?

(I'm assuming that we've the 12th pick and guys like Westbrook and EJ are gone.)

Which do you think is most likely not to be available at #12?

Good question, and I'm not sure. I think we need guards a bit more than we need bigs right now, but CD-R doesn't impress me the way he does some others. If EJ and Westbrook are gone, though, I'd imagine Collison would still be on the board, in which case I'd lean toward taking him or Augustin.

tdubb03
04-11-2008, 04:52 PM
Dern! If Thabeet is still available at 25 I'd wanna make a trade to nab him. No, I din't say trade down.

No kidding, I can't see Thabeet getting drafted below Hibbert. Especially not as low as 25.

blanket
04-11-2008, 04:53 PM
Pacers are on the clock and if you had to choose between Speights, CDR, or Arthur, who would you choose?

(I'm assuming that we've the 12th pick and guys like Westbrook and EJ are gone.)

Which do you think is most likely not to be available at #12?

If those are the guys TPTB wanted, I'd hope they would trade down to get one, as picking any of those players at 12 is a reach.

That said, I'd take Speights, followed by CDR. I don't expect Arthur to ever put it all together, unfortunately.

Gamble1
04-11-2008, 08:54 PM
If those are the guys TPTB wanted, I'd hope they would trade down to get one, as picking any of those players at 12 is a reach.

That said, I'd take Speights, followed by CDR. I don't expect Arthur to ever put it all together, unfortunately.

Doesn't Speights remind you of IKe. If we are going to hang on to IKe I would rather have CDR if I had to choose between the 3 of them.

Kofi
04-11-2008, 10:12 PM
I ran the idea of the Pacer's 1st for Foye on the Wolves board, provided they landed Derrick Rose. They seem to be interested.

I love the idea. A 6'4" 210 lb. PG that can shoot, who's young but not young enough to where he can't be an instant full-time starter for us.

esabyrn333
04-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Pacers are on the clock and if you had to choose between Speights, CDR, or Arthur, who would you choose?

(I'm assuming that we've the 12th pick and guys like Westbrook and EJ are gone.)

Which do you think is most likely not to be available at #12?


None of the above I would take DJ Augustine:dance::dance::dance:

Anthem
04-11-2008, 10:31 PM
I ran the idea of the Pacer's 1st for Foye on the Wolves board, provided they landed Derrick Rose. They seem to be interested.

I love the idea. A 6'4" 210 lb. PG that can shoot, who's young but not young enough to where he can't be an instant full-time starter for us.
Heck yeah. I'd much rather have Foye than anybody we'd draft. I'd even be open to moving Ike.

mrknowname
04-11-2008, 10:36 PM
I ran the idea of the Pacer's 1st for Foye on the Wolves board, provided they landed Derrick Rose. They seem to be interested.

I love the idea. A 6'4" 210 lb. PG that can shoot, who's young but not young enough to where he can't be an instant full-time starter for us.

can u email the idea to larry??????


on another note i like the idea of Bill Walker if we can get another pick despite the attitude. we'd have to trade all the bad apples though first

Gamble1
04-11-2008, 11:00 PM
Heck yeah. I'd much rather have Foye than anybody we'd draft. I'd even be open to moving Ike.

I would be really opposed to moving a guy we never play. That idea is just anti-Pacer.:hmm:

Naptown_Seth
04-11-2008, 11:26 PM
Keep in mind that these guys are going to be crap next year, at least probably. It's okay if they draft DJ or Love or Westbrook and they don't just rip it up straight away.

I'm not being pro-tank, just realistic, when I say that I expect another lotto run next year as of right now, barring some insane trade miracle.

Next year could be Danny's year, meaning he becomes "the" guy on this team. I realize some think he is now, but it's still up in the air and some nights it's Mike, plus you have JO lingering, and Danny still has his own duds and still makes mistakes too bad for "the" guy to be making.

So that puts the guys you draft/add as sorta coming in under his wing. If it's DJ then his job is to find Danny rather than be the guy as he had to this year.


Personally I'm a bit more sold on Chalmers and have been all year. I like his defensive interest, I like his shot making ability, I like his selection on most nights, and I like his smart, fundamental passing and who he chooses to pass to more importantly.

He can be had for "cheap" by pick standards it would seem. If he's slotting 20+ then I'd take a deal down to get him and use the other pick to just get someone rather than go get Foye.

Nothing on Foye, just thinking about getting max value and two players. Ike or Shawne or even cash might get you into a 20+ pick. Chalmers would appear to be a cheaper option than Foye is what I'm saying.

This is why I've been on about Love with the pick. I think you get more bang from that pick looking at other options rather than forcing a PG pick there.

Trading down is also interesting, but I'd rather trade back into round 1 if possible and retain one pick toward the top.

Shade
04-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Keep in mind that these guys are going to be crap next year, at least probably. It's okay if they draft DJ or Love or Westbrook and they don't just rip it up straight away.

I'm not being pro-tank, just realistic, when I say that I expect another lotto run next year as of right now, barring some insane trade miracle.

Next year could be Danny's year, meaning he becomes "the" guy on this team. I realize some think he is now, but it's still up in the air and some nights it's Mike, plus you have JO lingering, and Danny still has his own duds and still makes mistakes too bad for "the" guy to be making.

So that puts the guys you draft/add as sorta coming in under his wing. If it's DJ then his job is to find Danny rather than be the guy as he had to this year.


Personally I'm a bit more sold on Chalmers and have been all year. I like his defensive interest, I like his shot making ability, I like his selection on most nights, and I like his smart, fundamental passing and who he chooses to pass to more importantly.

He can be had for "cheap" by pick standards it would seem. If he's slotting 20+ then I'd take a deal down to get him and use the other pick to just get someone rather than go get Foye.

Nothing on Foye, just thinking about getting max value and two players. Ike or Shawne or even cash might get you into a 20+ pick. Chalmers would appear to be a cheaper option than Foye is what I'm saying.

This is why I've been on about Love with the pick. I think you get more bang from that pick looking at other options rather than forcing a PG pick there.

Trading down is also interesting, but I'd rather trade back into round 1 if possible and retain one pick toward the top.

I love Chalmers, and if he declares, we need to go after him. Methinks he'll be a steal.

esabyrn333
04-12-2008, 06:54 AM
I can see the "Cresent City Clasic" next year Augstine to Granger for the Slam become a regular accurance. DJ did a good job the year before feeding Kevin Durant. I think he could really do well in this O.

Seth I have a feeling that we will end up in the play offs next year for sure. We are going to make the moves to get the 5th spot next year. Unless we Deal JO for a bag of chips. But a healthy JO in the post next year and if Danny and Dun have a year like this one we are going to be good. We just need a point. I really think DJ and Danny could become something special together.

BlueNGold
04-12-2008, 07:20 AM
A huge factor going into next year will be JO's health. If he is healthy next year, he will both help us get to the playoffs and will become a valuable trading asset.

...and the other pieces on this team are developing.

People need to realize how much better Granger is from last year. Since January...and I have not run the numbers...I believe he is well over 20ppg. His points per attempts are up...rebounds are up...steals...even 3pt%. Maybe most of all is his consistency, aggressiveness and leadership on the floor. His ability to drive and finish has improved dramatically. The question is, can this guy get much better...because he is still on the incline.

Dunleavy is also becoming a vet now. He's a better player now than he has ever been.

Some of the other players are pretty good. Compare Flip or Diener to Sarunas. Is there any comparison? Tinsley who will not crack 50% of the games this year was not always helpful on the court either...and with him being out half the time, anything he added did not matter. With all due respect to Stephen Jackson who is a good player, Granger is the better player...if some disagree fine...in a year or two it will be no contest. As for Al Harrington, he was not helping to lead this team anywhere. A highly paid backup he is.

Yep, I like this team. I think as long as JO can stay on the floor and fits into the offensive scheme...that is where he is not the focal point...and plays strong D we will be in the playoffs next year.

Kofi
04-12-2008, 08:32 AM
I've thought for quite a while that if we can improve the point guard position and stay healthy, we can be a good team next season. Right now, 2-5 we have a very solid starting line-up (when healthy)....

Dunleavy
Granger
O'Neal
Foster

Provided J.O. returns to health and Granger continues his ascent, that's 2 stars, surrounded by a pretty good supporting cast, including the bench. We just need a new PG, preferably one that can shoot and defend.

QuickRelease
04-12-2008, 09:35 AM
Just a side note: I think Mike Green (Butler) will be a nice 2nd round pu for someone. Foye has been somewhat injury prone, hasn't he? If we can't pick up a point guard, maybe we should make a play for Kyle Lowry, and address other areas through the draft.

QuickRelease
04-12-2008, 09:36 AM
can u email the idea to larry??????


on another note i like the idea of Bill Walker if we can get another pick despite the attitude. we'd have to trade all the bad apples though first

Does anyone else look at Bill Walker, and see the 2nd coming of Bonzi? (I mean without the drama) Maybe it's just me.

rm1369
04-12-2008, 11:44 AM
Provided J.O. returns to health and Granger continues his ascent, that's 2 stars, surrounded by a pretty good supporting cast, including the bench. We just need a new PG, preferably one that can shoot and defend.

With the the way DG and Dun have been shooting the ball I'd put a higher premium on a PG that can penetrate.

I believe Westbrook is the best fit for this team after you get through the top 5 players - Rose, Beasley, Lopez, Bayless, and Mayo. I think he would be a better fit than Gordon. If the Pacers intend to keep both DG and Dun they are in desperate need of a perimeter defender and offensively he would balance the team by providing an "attack the rim" type player. Westbrook probably isn't going to ever lead the NBA in assists, but I believe he will be a high quality starting PG in the NBA. I see enough unselfishness and instinct in his passing to believe he will be more than a short SG. Unfortunantly he likely won't be available when the Pacers draft so they will have to go get him.

Will Galen
04-12-2008, 12:23 PM
I can see the "Cresent City Clasic" next year Augstine to Granger for the Slam become a regular accurance. DJ did a good job the year before feeding Kevin Durant. I think he could really do well in this O.

Seth I have a feeling that we will end up in the play offs next year for sure. We are going to make the moves to get the 5th spot next year. Unless we Deal JO for a bag of chips. But a healthy JO in the post next year and if Danny and Dun have a year like this one we are going to be good. We just need a point. I really think DJ and Danny could become something special together.

I'd be happy with Augustine. And there might be someone better but I still like Thabeet for the Pacer's but not with our 1st pick. If we could trade for him that would be what I'd want.

The reason I like him is, can you imagine a front line of Beet, JO, and Danny? What a block party that would be! Maybe Robin Lopez would be better? Whatever, what I would really want is a shot blocking center.

Add that, and a point guard that can stay in front of his man and our defense would suddenly be stifling. We could then live with Dun being the shooting guard.

owl
04-12-2008, 12:39 PM
I'd be happy with Augustine. And there might be someone better but I still like Thabeet for the Pacer's but not with our 1st pick. If we could trade for him that would be what I'd want.

The reason I like him is, can you imagine a front line of Beet, JO, and Danny? What a block party that would be! Maybe Robin Lopez would be better? Whatever, what I would really want is a shot blocking center.

Add that, and a point guard that can stay in front of his man and our defense would suddenly be stifling. We could then live with Dun being the shooting guard.

This is how I feel. I believe with a defensive minded center and a point this team would be
complete. So they really need to pick up another first rounder this year.
Assuming Thabeet has some desire and is stable mentally the rest can be taught
based on his physical talent. The Pacers did it before with Smits. Thabeet has at least
as much potential as Rik. Rik is probably a better motorcycle rider though :-)
McGee might fill the need also.

Gamble1
04-12-2008, 12:41 PM
Give me R. Lopez or a good point guard. I wouldn't be unhappy with Westbrook if he plays defense at a high level.

esabyrn333
04-12-2008, 12:42 PM
I'd be happy with Augustine. And there might be someone better but I still like Thabeet for the Pacer's but not with our 1st pick. If we could trade for him that would be what I'd want.

The reason I like him is, can you imagine a front line of Beet, JO, and Danny? What a block party that would be! Maybe Robin Lopez would be better? Whatever, what I would really want is a shot blocking center.

Add that, and a point guard that can stay in front of his man and our defense would suddenly be stifling. We could then live with Dun being the shooting guard.


I have thought about this also. I could see the Suns being interested in Ike due to the expiring contract or a bigger deal involving Foster. I see Portland or Memphis willing to trade a young pg or chicago could be intrested in moving Hinreach. I really would like to keep JO, Shawne if possible but I would use Foster, and Ike try to package them with Tin man or Quis to get another mid to late round pick and or a PG.

Gamble1
04-12-2008, 12:43 PM
This is how I feel. I believe with a defensive minded center and a point this team would be
complete. So they really need to pick up another first rounder this year.
Assuming Thabeet has some desire and is stable mentally the rest can be taught
based on his physical talent. The Pacers did it before with Smits. Thabeet has at least
as much potential as Rik. Rik is probably a better motorcycle rider though :-)
McGee might fill the need also.

Look at how Thabeet has performed under NBA caliber centers and you'll get a since if he is up for the challenge. WIth Thabeet you better have a good rebounding pf in the near future. He is going to get schooled at the higher level along with McGee.

I would much rather have Robin Lopez for defense than Thabeet.

owl
04-12-2008, 01:29 PM
Some have in the past mentioned Green from Butler as a second rounder or camp invitee
and I think that would be something to look at.

From Portsmith...

The best prospect on the floor may have been Butler point guard Mike Green, who is slowly emerging as the Jose Juan Barea/Dashaun Wood style floor general extraordinaire that seems to pop up every year here. Green was terrific running his team’s offense today, coming up with 10 assists to go along with 13 points and 8 rebounds on 3-8 shooting, but was just as impressive with the leadership skills he showed on and off the court directing his teammates from the bench, clearly something that is in his blood with how natural it comes to him. He was very good in transition, was effective setting screens and making his teammates better, changing directions well and using his strength to get to the hoop, and set the table in a variety of ways, particularly with smart post-entry passes. He also played solid defense and looked very intense throughout. While his physical tools or perimeter shooting ability may not be ideal, there is no question that he is one hell of a player.


Reggie Williams---lead the nation in scoring.
was the game’s leading scorer at 22 points on 9-13 shooting (4-5 from beyond the arc)—showing those in attendance that he did not lead the country in scoring by accident. He was awesome coming off screens and knocking down shots, despite his strange mechanics. He also displayed better athleticism than we may be giving him credit for by finishing a thunderous alleyoop lob, and also showed a nice basketball IQ and solid unselfishness by making a number of excellent passes to open teammates (helping him net 6 assists). We’ll be keeping a close eye on him for the rest of his game, even though his average lateral quickness and ball-handling skills may limit his NBA potential in the long-run.

Pat Calathes
wasn’t quite as dominant as he was in the first day, but he still had a very strong all-around performance with 15 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks and 3 turnovers, on 6-14 shooting. He was his typical versatile self, impressive with his passing especially, and very aggressive looking for his own shot. He used any opportunity possible to put the ball down on the floor going left in particular, and came up with a very memorable play at the end of the first half taking the ball to the basket and finishing with a thunderous two-handed dunk right in front of the few dozen scouts in attendance. There are very few 6-10 players out there who can handle the ball the way he can, let alone have the audacity to finish in traffic like that. He showed great court vision (enjoying a huge advantage seeing the floor from the perimeter at his height) with his outlet passes and zipping bullet passes from the perimeter into the paint, and again was not afraid to take a rebound and bring the ball up the floor to get his team into their offense. He did everything with the utmost confidence, never hesitating for a second with his decision making, and usually ending up making something positive happen with his terrific activity level.

Defensively, he struggled at times trying to match up with the very offensive minded Gary Forbes, showing questionable lateral quickness getting beat on the perimeter, and not attacking the pick and roll aggressively enough in other instances. This is really the main concern people have about him—his ability to defend his position at the next level, especially considering his lack of strength. His jumper wasn’t falling for him quite as well as it has in the past (he has a tendency to rush himself at times), hitting only 1-4 from beyond the arc, but when his team needed a bucket down two points with under a minute left, he stepped up big in the clutch (as he has so many times this season for St. Joe’s) by draining a huge 3-pointer that ended up playing a huge part in his team staying undefeated and making tomorrow’s finals. Every NBA person we spoke with seems to have pegged him as the most impressive prospect here in Portsmouth (by a wide margin), and most people seem to think that he’s set himself up nicely to get drafted in June. A good showing tomorrow should lock up MVP honors for him.

owl
04-13-2008, 02:11 PM
Number 11 it is most likely.

DJ
Love
Thabeet
Arthur
Mcgee
Westbrook

I would be very surprised if it did not come from this bunch.

blanket
04-13-2008, 02:32 PM
Number 11 it is most likely.

DJ
Love
Thabeet
Arthur
Mcgee
Westbrook

I would be very surprised if it did not come from this bunch.

I'd add Randolph, Jordan and maybe Speights to that list as well.

themayhem87
04-13-2008, 02:34 PM
i think its either love or augustin, gotta grab a pg somehow wether by trade or draft. Wouldn't mind trading shawne and ike to grab a young pg. I've had enough of tinsley or our other options, its time for someone young and exciting

blanket
04-13-2008, 02:44 PM
If we keep our current pick, I think there's a good chance we draft a big and then make a trade later in the summer for a PG.

I could see Dunleavy's trade value being high enough now to make such a trade happen. Maybe Dun Dun for TJ Ford?

d_c
04-13-2008, 03:41 PM
If we keep our current pick, I think there's a good chance we draft a big and then make a trade later in the summer for a PG.

I could see Dunleavy's trade value being high enough now to make such a trade happen. Maybe Dun Dun for TJ Ford?

That's actually not a bad idea.

PacerGuy
04-13-2008, 03:51 PM
That's actually not a bad idea.

Except for the fact that Fords medical condition (spine) is a serious one, & many out there question why w/ the jack he has made is risking his long-term health.
Sure, the doc's have cleared him to play, that doesn't mean they think he is smart for doing so. 1 more blow to the head & TJ retires for sure. Trust me, I like TJ & would love to have him here, but I would not take a player who had the year MD has had this year & risk him like that. Tinsley + Ike, or Murphy - YES, but not Mike.

owl
04-13-2008, 04:38 PM
I'd add Randolph, Jordan and maybe Speights to that list as well.

Randolph would duplicate a position the Pacers have plenty at already.
Jordan is years away from contributing with no desire from what I read.
Speights would be large reach at 11. Not really outstanding at anything.

JMHO

croz24
04-13-2008, 04:59 PM
pacers have 0 business drafting for need. we must draft best player/potential available.

Hicks
04-13-2008, 05:18 PM
We need a PG more than anything right now, though we could use improvements in many areas. We need to take the best PG available unless all of the ones worth taking that high get drafted too early.

CableKC
04-13-2008, 06:36 PM
We need a PG more than anything right now, though we could use improvements in many areas. We need to take the best PG available unless all of the ones worth taking that high get drafted too early.
For those advocating drafting a PG, do you think that it would be wise to draft one considering that we do not know what the status of Tinsley will be for the next season?

The problem is that we do not know whether Tinsley would actually be traded or not. I know that we want to move him....but that's different then actually doing it since I consider the task to be rather daunting.

On top of that....although I would reluctantly draft a PG like Collison or Augustine at the 11th spot ( only cuz I think that is too high for either players ), ignoring that any Tinsley trade is highly improbably given his low trade value, I just don't envision any trade in the offseason for Tinsley that won't ( A ) put us in a worse financial situation then we are in now ( like trading malcontents like SJax/Harrington for Dunleavy/Murphy that put us in Salarycap Heck ) or ( B ) get back players that we do not want on this roster.

After going through 1/2 a season with Diener doing his best impression of being our Starting PG....I agree with you that we need a PG to play ahead of or next to Diener. Unfortunately, like it or not, the reality is that Tinsley will likely be on the roster in the upcoming season.

Unless Collison or Augustine can come out of the gates and ACTUALLY OUTPLAY both Tinsley or Diener ( which seems highly unlikely ).....I simply don't see where we are going to have PG minutes for either of them unless we are content with playing them for 5-10 minutes a game.

Does this mean that we don't have a need for a future PG? Nope...that issue still needs to be fixed.....but when we draft someone in the offseason....I really hope that we get someone that we will actually develop on a regular basis with consistent minutes. Getting a PG that will be stuck behind Tinsley and Diener isn't going to get the necessary minutes to properly develop.

rm1369
04-13-2008, 07:18 PM
Midway through the season Tinsley will be injured as usual and you will have plenty of minutes for a rookie and Travis.

I believe the Pacers have to make a move at PG in the offseason - either through a trade or through the draft. Considering both Tinsley and Diener are poor defenders and we play two SFs, I think we have to find a defensive PG this offseason. I'd like to see them go get Westbrook. IMO he fits the teams needs completly. I don't really like DJ or Collison because both will likely be defensive liabilities in the NBA.

Kaufman
04-13-2008, 07:21 PM
I don't know that we could even get a 3rd round pick for Tinsley.

BlueNGold
04-13-2008, 08:38 PM
There is no point drafting a PG if we're not pretty sure he will be the starter....which means we would need to draft Bayless or Rose IMO. We already have a couple solid backup PG's....which is probably the best the rest of the draft has to offer.

So, I would hesitate to draft Augustin or Collison. If we go small, I would take the risk on Westbrook who might actually adapt to the position. Generally, I would go for another big and hope Tins can play another year of his contract out.

It's a shame we don't have the #3 pick because I think we could get a franchise player out of it....

Hicks
04-13-2008, 08:53 PM
For those advocating drafting a PG, do you think that it would be wise to draft one considering that we do not know what the status of Tinsley will be for the next season?

The problem is that we do not know whether Tinsley would actually be traded or not. I know that we want to move him....but that's different then actually doing it since I consider the task to be rather daunting.

On top of that....although I would reluctantly draft a PG like Collison or Augustine at the 11th spot ( only cuz I think that is too high for either players ), ignoring that any Tinsley trade is highly improbably given his low trade value, I just don't envision any trade in the offseason for Tinsley that won't ( A ) put us in a worse financial situation then we are in now ( like trading malcontents like SJax/Harrington for Dunleavy/Murphy that put us in Salarycap Heck ) or ( B ) get back players that we do not want on this roster.

After going through 1/2 a season with Diener doing his best impression of being our Starting PG....I agree with you that we need a PG to play ahead of or next to Diener. Unfortunately, like it or not, the reality is that Tinsley will likely be on the roster in the upcoming season.

Unless Collison or Augustine can come out of the gates and ACTUALLY OUTPLAY both Tinsley or Diener ( which seems highly unlikely ).....I simply don't see where we are going to have PG minutes for either of them unless we are content with playing them for 5-10 minutes a game.

Does this mean that we don't have a need for a future PG? Nope...that issue still needs to be fixed.....but when we draft someone in the offseason....I really hope that we get someone that we will actually develop on a regular basis with consistent minutes. Getting a PG that will be stuck behind Tinsley and Diener isn't going to get the necessary minutes to properly develop.

I think the last thing you want to do is avoid picking a PG out of concern for the Tinsley situation. Even if he stays, he will remain a health concern that you can't afford to hope stays healthy all season. Furthermore, having more talent at the 1 makes it easier to sit his *** down if he gives you any kind of grief. If he really makes a fuss you do what we did with Artest after he requested a trade: Tell him to stay away from the team and play Diener and the new kid in his absense. Not taking a PG keeps you over the barrel when Tinsley trouble arrises in one form or another. So IMO getting a new PG in the draft should be our top priority.

Kraft
04-13-2008, 09:08 PM
Ideally, for me at least, you make your pick hoping that player can be a quality starter on a good playoff team at some point. It doesn't have to be immediate. You have to look long-term.

But don't pick a guy that will start only because the team has a giant hole at a position. Don't pick a Raymond Felton, a Charlie Villanueva, a couple of OK players that got to start early on bad teams. Please, please, please don't aim for mediocrity.

That's what scares me about the draft. I wouldn't draft a Collison at 11 because he's not a guy that can lead a team deep into the playoffs. I'm not sure Augustin is, either. But will Larry fool himself into thinking those players are?

So if you can't find a point guard that can make a real impact, don't pick one. Look elsewhere. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking this team has only one hole.

pwee31
04-13-2008, 09:20 PM
Tinsley will be gone, I feel it in my bones.
The draft however will depend on a few things.
Mostly who's available in the draft, and who's availible on our team.

I'm more intrigued by drafting a young defensive big man to develop, and trying to trade for a veteran PG if possible.

Now if there's good point guard that you want on the board, of course you take him, but if not why not take a good young big man, or PERHAPS even draft for someone to entice a trade offer.

I personally think teams out West whom just miss the playoffs, or those who are in and get early exits, will be teams to look to trade with.

You can also look at those teams with multiple 1st round picks.

I'm still thinking JO will be moved as well, along with a couple other players, so I think draft night will be quite interesting

Young
04-13-2008, 09:21 PM
One player I like, and no one talks about, is Earl Clark. I think he has a nice all around game and is a better prospect than CDR.

With Mike and Shawne here there is no room for Earl.

But it seems that when people talk about the wings of this draft they talk about Rush, CDR, Randolph, and Chase Budinger. I think that Clark could suprise people.

Again, i'm not saying he is the guy for the Pacers. I just don't get why people seem to be sleeping on this kid.

As of right now I kind of want the Pacers to trade this pick. I think I like Augistin the best but even with him I have some question marks.

Kaufman
04-13-2008, 09:24 PM
That's what scares me about the draft. I wouldn't draft a Collison at 11 because he's not a guy that can lead a team deep into the playoffs. I'm not sure Augustin is, either. But will Larry fool himself into thinking those players are?

So if you can't find a point guard that can make a real impact, don't pick one. Look elsewhere. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking this team has only one hole.

Well the other way to look at what you are saying here is - Is anyone going to lead us deep into the playoffs at #11? I'm not so sure. Unless you are at the top of the draft, like top couple picks, the whole thing is a crapshoot. You get a Reggie Miller great, you get a Scott Haskin, well that happens too. So I think we just have to see what pans out.

No matter who we pick at 11, I don't know that any of them are going to be so ready as to make an impact on the league and on the team as a rookie. It takes time.

Will Galen
04-13-2008, 10:53 PM
Well the other way to look at what you are saying here is - Is anyone going to lead us deep into the playoffs at #11? I'm not so sure. Unless you are at the top of the draft, like top couple picks, the whole thing is a crapshoot. You get a Reggie Miller great, you get a Scott Haskin, well that happens too. So I think we just have to see what pans out.

No matter who we pick at 11, I don't know that any of them are going to be so ready as to make an impact on the league and on the team as a rookie. It takes time.

If we draft a point guard that can stop dribble penetration and shoot, he'll not only play, he'll make an impact, because we are so bad at that.

CableKC
04-14-2008, 02:18 AM
Ideally, for me at least, you make your pick hoping that player can be a quality starter on a good playoff team at some point. It doesn't have to be immediate. You have to look long-term.

But don't pick a guy that will start only because the team has a giant hole at a position. Don't pick a Raymond Felton, a Charlie Villanueva, a couple of OK players that got to start early on bad teams. Please, please, please don't aim for mediocrity.

That's what scares me about the draft. I wouldn't draft a Collison at 11 because he's not a guy that can lead a team deep into the playoffs. I'm not sure Augustin is, either. But will Larry fool himself into thinking those players are?

So if you can't find a point guard that can make a real impact, don't pick one. Look elsewhere. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking this team has only one hole.
I'm not expecting a future All-Star at the 11th pick......I'm just hoping that we can get a solid rotational player that can really help us in the near future.

But I get the sense that Bird is the type of person that drafts the best player available as opposed to need...unless both can be had. Why else would he draft a SF like Shawne when we already had a future SF waiting in the wings in Granger?

Since I'm of the belief that Tinsley won't be moved anytime soon and that we won't resign Rush, Flip and will trade away Marquis....I'm going to say that I hope we draft a player that can play SG or a Big Man ( specifically Love ) if a decent one is available.

Who knows...maybe Bird will kill 2 birds with one stone and draft a Combo-Guard with potential like Westbrook :shrug:

Kraft
04-14-2008, 02:33 AM
I'm certainly not looking for an all-star. It'd be foolhardy to expect that.

But I make sure the player I pick is one who can be a legitimate piece of good team. I think there's a lot of players in the league who are good individual players but will never be a contending player. And then there's just a ton of incomplete players that will always leave you wanting more. ... like a Fred Jones. There's a ton of Fred Jones-like potholes the Pacers could fall into.

Just find someone that makes sense, and will continue to make sense six years down the road.

Speed
04-14-2008, 06:47 AM
I think the last thing you want to do is avoid picking a PG out of concern for the Tinsley situation. Even if he stays, he will remain a health concern that you can't afford to hope stays healthy all season. Furthermore, having more talent at the 1 makes it easier to sit his *** down if he gives you any kind of grief. If he really makes a fuss you do what we did with Artest after he requested a trade: Tell him to stay away from the team and play Diener and the new kid in his absense. Not taking a PG keeps you over the barrel when Tinsley trouble arrises in one form or another. So IMO getting a new PG in the draft should be our top priority.

I agree what ever the status of Tinsley right now or the rest of his time with the Pacers, it shouldn't impact how you approach the off season. I don't see Tinsley as part of the team and thats how you have to approach it, I think.

If he comes back, fine, if he's not a 1 on 5 disaster, fine, if he stays healthy, fine, its gravy. You can't count on any of those things. The first month of the season when he was lighting it up, I still thought his game was detrimental to good basketball.
I'm not going to hijack the thread, I'm just saying in how you look at this team and how you are going to build it, you can't even consider Tinsley in the equation. He can't be counted on physically and he doesn't get it basketball wise, imo.

Kofi
04-14-2008, 08:48 AM
Rose is in. Beasley will announce his decision today, I'd put everything I won on him entering as well. There are also credible sources reporting that Kevin Love is entering the draft and will sign with an agent.

owl
04-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Love is all but in and going very high.

The move was cemented when UCLA coach Ben Howland told Love during a meeting last week on campus that NBA teams projected Love to be taken as high as fourth, and he was virtually guaranteed of being in the top 14 picks.

Naptown_Seth
04-14-2008, 10:19 AM
With all due respect to Stephen Jackson who is a good player, Granger is the better player...if some disagree fine...in a year or two it will be no contest. As for Al Harrington, he was not helping to lead this team anywhere. A highly paid backup he is.

Yep, I like this team. I think as long as JO can stay on the floor and fits into the offensive scheme...that is where he is not the focal point...and plays strong D we will be in the playoffs next year.
This was never the issue though, it's that Jackson as a more true SG defender made a better match with the strong 3pt shooting Danny. Without a doubt Mike is a better scorer, far more efficient due to his FG%. But it's Jackson that's consistantly had more assists.

The more Danny comes on the more it proves out that adding an SF forced to act like a slow SG with weak SG defense was a mistake. I know we all love his scoring and I certainly wouldn't suggest Jack is a better shooter, but dang, wouldn't you rather see Jack/Danny defending the 2-3 spot and then perhaps Jackson deferring a bit to DG at the other end, and all for a million or two less?


Anyway, that can't be undone. However as heretical as it sounds to some I'd move Dunleavy ASAP while he's coming off this great year and earning his deal. This team needs defensive improvement and I don't fully believe in him as the final SG answer.

If you could move Mike for a #20 pick and get an Arthur or Thabeet I'd be happy to have Westbrook come be the new SG if he fell to that pick. Or Love and then perhaps Rush as the less athletic version of W'brook. You take a slight hit, but in the long run I think the team gets healthier in it's overall structure and financials.

Naptown_Seth
04-14-2008, 10:31 AM
Clark and T Smith. I think both are okay, but neither blow me away with next level talent or smarts. Contrast to the guys I just mentioned, W'brook and Rush. W'brook appears to have tons of NBA level ability and Rush has enough NBA level smarts mixed with talent to find his way into a solid role.

Those guys are stronger than Taj Gibson, but by how much?



Tinsley - I've already assumed he's gone. I'm not rebuilding instantly for next year. As I've said, I don't think they make the playoffs next year. I'm building for the year after that.

I move Tins for equal contract space and expiring as soon as or sooner. I'd prefer two cheaper deals that are easier to repackage actually.

And as I just said I'd also move Dun. Ultimately my vision of the team features Danny, Foster till he retires, probably JO till his deal ends or during it's final year, and then the kids you add this and next year.

That's the team I want to see them try to win with. So I draft and trade in order to fill ALL those spots, not just PG for next year as if that's all it's going to take.


This is why I don't draft W'brook to "learn" PG. He doesn't have the vision, doesn't have that PG sense, and just is a huge risk away from SG/combo status I think. There you are counting on that HR attempt at a PG solution and you haven't solved any other issues. However I do take him if you are moving Dunleavy.

That would mean that technically I'm passing over the PG spot with that pick. But then if Mike gets you Chalmers at say 22 or so then you just turned Tins/Mike into Chalmers/Westbrook and they fit much more naturally with what Granger does. Both those guys would work off Danny better than Dun because in many ways Dun is a duplicate of Danny on offense.

I mean for all his faciliating of offense Mike's assists aren't exactly through the roof. I don't see Westbrook as a PG, but I do think he could see 3-5 assists from the SG/combo to match Mike's output. The defensive improvement would be drastic.

Jonathan
04-14-2008, 10:54 AM
I do not see the Pacers blowing up the current roster. We will draft the best player available. Larry Bird will not take EJ at 11 just because he is from Indiana; he will take him if he thinks he is the best player available. I have no idea what will happen in the draft till we know the exact order. This is a very interesting draft b/c some decent players might slip to us in the second round ie DJ White, Lester Hudson, Tyler Smith, we also might see a Chris Lofton/ Mike Green/ Jaycee Carroll not get drafted and work his way onto our summer league team.

PacerGuy
04-14-2008, 11:06 AM
I do not see the Pacers blowing up the current roster. We will draft the best player available. Larry Bird will not take EJ at 11 just because he is from Indiana; he will take him if he thinks he is the best player available. I have no idea what will happen in the draft till we know the exact order. This is a very interesting draft b/c some decent players might slip to us in the second round ie DJ White, Lester Hudson, Tyler Smith, we also might see a Chris Lofton/ Mike Green/ Jaycee Carroll not get drafted and work his way onto our summer league team.

No "Blow-up" but there will be changes. I know there has been talk about building around Dun & Granger from LB, but Dun had have earned enough value that we might make a move w/ him if we can. If we did, I could see (hope) for a C.Lee in rd. 2.
Lets just pray for a Top 3 pick!!!

Jonathan
04-14-2008, 11:24 AM
I am just not in the mindset of drafing a PG at 11 because we need a PG. We have several holes in our roster. Lack of perimeter defense, dribble penetration, and toughness. I feel if you can go out and acquire a decent FA at PG we are better off for the future than taking DJ Augustine because he is the popular choice. What if Batum, Randolph, & Speights all turn into 20/10 guys and Augustine turns out to be a bust?

OakMoses
04-14-2008, 12:59 PM
Thoughts on what I'm reading:

I don't want T.J. Ford, unless I can trade Tins + not much for him. Ford's played 251 games in 4 seasons for an average of ~63 games/year. Tinsley has played 398 games in 7 seasons for an average of ~57 games/year. In short, Ford is not any less of an injury risk than Tinsley.

I think we can trust Bird to draft the best available player within reason. I think he'll draft the best player that's not a 3. I think that's a very reasonable strategy. We need help at every position other than SF. The only other concern I have would be taking a PF with JO, Ike, Shawne, and Foster still on the roster. If we draft a PF, we better have a plan to move at least one of those guys. It won't do us any good to draft Arthur or Speights or Love to have them competing with Ike and Shawne to be the 4th wheel behind Foster, O'Neal, and Murphy. And don't kid yourself into thinking that we can find a way to move Murphy.

I like Dunleavy a lot, but I can certainly see plenty of reasons to trade him. If I got offered a PF/C or guard of equal or slightly lesser ability than Dun, I'd take them provided they could bring qualities to the table that this team is missing: rebound and shot-blocking from a PF/C and strong perimeter defense from a guard.

In looking at who we might draft this year, we should look at Bird's stated vision for the team and the qualities he's liked in players in the past. I think that Larry looks for effort first and foremost in a player. I have a very hard time seeing him take a player like Jordan who has a questionable heart/work ethic.

Will Galen
04-14-2008, 04:19 PM
What if Batum, Randolph, & Speights all turn into 20/10 guys and Augustine turns out to be a bust?

That's not a good argument. You could turn it around and say the same thing, what if the three above are run of the mill and Augustin is a 15ppg, 9apg, 3spg, point guard? You never really know.

You make what you think is the best move possible at the time.

CableKC
04-14-2008, 05:19 PM
And as I just said I'd also move Dun. Ultimately my vision of the team features Danny, Foster till he retires, probably JO till his deal ends or during it's final year, and then the kids you add this and next year.

That's the team I want to see them try to win with. So I draft and trade in order to fill ALL those spots, not just PG for next year as if that's all it's going to take.

This is why I don't draft W'brook to "learn" PG. He doesn't have the vision, doesn't have that PG sense, and just is a huge risk away from SG/combo status I think. There you are counting on that HR attempt at a PG solution and you haven't solved any other issues. However I do take him if you are moving Dunleavy.

That would mean that technically I'm passing over the PG spot with that pick. But then if Mike gets you Chalmers at say 22 or so then you just turned Tins/Mike into Chalmers/Westbrook and they fit much more naturally with what Granger does. Both those guys would work off Danny better than Dun because in many ways Dun is a duplicate of Danny on offense.

I mean for all his faciliating of offense Mike's assists aren't exactly through the roof. I don't see Westbrook as a PG, but I do think he could see 3-5 assists from the SG/combo to match Mike's output. The defensive improvement would be drastic.
Why is moving Dunleavy a requirment to picking a SG/Combo-Guard like Wesbrook in the upcoming draft?

Looking at our upcoming roster for the 2008-2009 season, we only have 1 SG that has a guaraneteed Contract in Marquis. If Marquis is moved in the offseason as an Expiring Contract :pray:, Rush and Flip aren't resigned, Shawne isn't moved for PR reasons ( all of which I think is a possiblility ), and Tinsley and Dunleavy are still on the roster ( both likely to remain given the length of their contract ), we could have enough minutes at the Guard rotation to play a rookie SG/Combo-Guard for the next season or two.

PG - Tinsley / Diener
SG - Dunleavy / "SG or Combo-Guard that we draft"
SF - Granger / Shawne

If a Guard had to be chosen in this draft, my preference is to draft Westbrook at the 12th spot ( as opposed to Collison or Augustine ) and have him fill the backup SG role or even the role that Flip is filling now ( doing a poor-impersonation of a PG ) IF Tinsley goes down with yet another injury.

The good thing is that Westbrook can be brought in as a backup SG off the bench behind Dunleavy and net a consistent 10-15 minutes a game in his rookie season while filling the role of SG while possibly learning how to run the point without significant pressure behind Tinsley and Diener.

I'm speculating here....but I think that is one of the reasons that Bird wanted Marquis and why he ultimately pursued Flip....he likes to have those Combo-Guards that can score ( frustratingly inconsistently at times for both Flip and Marquis ) the ball like a SG while handling limited PG duties ( which I don't think either of them can effectively do at the level that we need them to do it at ).

That's why I can see Bird choosing Westbrook if Love or some other top Prospect ( a la Granger ) falls to him. Westbrook has the potential to become a better player, he fills a positional need that we have ( assuming that we don't resign any of our current FA Guards and move Marquis in the offseason ) and is the type of Combo-Guard that Bird likes to have on his roster. More importantly, Westbrook apparently can do a decent job at defending the perimeter and effectively pressuring the opposing PG.

Kaufman
04-14-2008, 05:32 PM
I just want to ask - and this is no offense to CableKC - I liked your post a lot---

Has there ever been a good "combo-guard" that has really ever done much as a point guard? Again Fred Jones, Marquis Daniels, Jalen Rose and such names come to mind and these guys really aren't cut out to translate into point guards.

CableKC
04-14-2008, 06:02 PM
I just want to ask - and this is no offense to CableKC - I liked your post a lot---

Has there ever been a good "combo-guard" that has really ever done much as a point guard? Again Fred Jones, Marquis Daniels, Jalen Rose and such names come to mind and these guys really aren't cut out to translate into point guards.
You can ask that question to Bird as well ;) He seemed to think that Flip was either a PG or ( at the very least ) a Combo-Guard when he signed him :shrug:

I'm not saying that Westbrook can become the next Wade or AI ( the closest players that I can think of that remotely resembles a Combo-Guard...which I can completely be off base about ), I'm just thinking that this is the type of player ( specifically a Guard that is more of a SG that can score while being capable of handling some PG duties ) that Bird seems to like having in his roster.

As many have suggested here....if we had to draft a PG....I would much rather draft Westbrook at the 12th spot then draft Augustine or Collison. I don't like to draft players that only popped up on people's radar during the NCAA Tourney ( as opposed to more established players that have played well all year long as welll as in the Tourney, ie Brandon Rush ), but I can honestly say that I would prefer taking a risk on Westbrook ( something that I do not want to do ) then picking Augustine or Collison.

At worst, we would have a decent backup SG and continue to look for a PG....at best...we have a solid Guard that can primarily play SG and provide some solid minutes at the PG spot.

wintermute
04-15-2008, 12:08 AM
I just want to ask - and this is no offense to CableKC - I liked your post a lot---

Has there ever been a good "combo-guard" that has really ever done much as a point guard? Again Fred Jones, Marquis Daniels, Jalen Rose and such names come to mind and these guys really aren't cut out to translate into point guards.

a bit tough to answer because once a guard proves he can play the point, he'd lose the "combo" tag.

one example that comes to mind is kirk hinrich. another is delonte west. heck, anthony johnson probably qualifies as well. other names - leandro barbosa, louis williams. but perhaps they don't play pg all that much.

i like westbrook (or weaver for that matter) because i think our perimeter defense really needs a boost. if either could learn to play the pg position then that would be a bonus.

Infinite MAN_force
04-15-2008, 12:26 AM
a bit tough to answer because once a guard proves he can play the point, he'd lose the "combo" tag.

one example that comes to mind is kirk hinrich. another is delonte west. heck, anthony johnson probably qualifies as well. other names - leandro barbosa, louis williams. but perhaps they don't play pg all that much.

i like westbrook (or weaver for that matter) because i think our perimeter defense really needs a boost. if either could learn to play the pg position then that would be a bonus.


It seems like with a guy like Dunleavy on the team we could afford to run a combo type at the point. Someone like westbrook who would be great in transition would do great in Obie's system, than you could always have dunleavy run the offense in the half court set. Meanwhile Westbrook plays excellent defense on the perimeter.

As somebody mentioned, Randy Foye is another guy who could fill this role, he is also a better jumpshooter than westbrook. If westbrook was gone when we pick I would like to see what combo of williams, diogu, and the #11 pick could fetch him. Minny getting Rose would make this more feasable.

you know playmaking is not a huge problem on this team, we are 7th in the leauge in assists per game.

Kaufman
04-15-2008, 12:27 AM
I guess I have disdain for the term "combo" guard. I don't get it. Any guard should be able to handle the ball, but it takes a different type of player to actually "see" the floor and set people up for shots.

I agree wintermute with your point about losing the tag once they prove pg skills.

I think that maybe that is what the term is used for then - a guy who teams would like to play point guard if he is able to develop the skills. So far the guys I've seen try have all failed.

Now a couple guys who were bonified superstars could play point - guys like Pippen, TMac, Penny Hardaway and such players.

Jonathan
04-15-2008, 09:50 AM
That's not a good argument. You could turn it around and say the same thing, what if the three above are run of the mill and Augustin is a 15ppg, 9apg, 3spg, point guard? You never really know.

You make what you think is the best move possible at the time.

Do you see the Pacers being able to move Tinsely & JO7 in the off-season? Here is my logic you have Jeff Foster, IKE, & JO7. If the Pacers make a move at the trading deadline next year it will have to involve Foster (expiring contract, quality player). You already have a replacement in the wings.

Hicks
04-15-2008, 10:47 AM
When I hear "combo guard" I think of a shooting guard with a body of a point guard and who has at least one person convinced he has even a small chance of learning to be a point guard some day through coaching.

Speed
04-15-2008, 11:34 AM
If Combo guard means they can play both well, I'm all for it, but it never does. Mal is right and this draft is littered with guys like that. Its why I keep coming back to Augustine despite his size.

OakMoses
04-15-2008, 12:53 PM
If Combo guard means they can play both well, I'm all for it, but it never does. Mal is right and this draft is littered with guys like that. Its why I keep coming back to Augustine despite his size.

What's the difference between a combo guard and a scoring PG who's between 6'2" and 6'4"? Gilbert Arenas was considered a combo guard coming out of college. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that a guy like Chauncey Billups was also. Really, any guard with decent but not ideal height gets labeled a combo guard coming out. Some guys learn to play PG and that's how we think of them, but they're not "pure" PG's like Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc. I'd bet that you could find some pundits who referred to Deron Williams as a combo guard because he mainly played off the ball in college.

Naptown_Seth
04-15-2008, 01:11 PM
Why is moving Dunleavy a requirment to picking a SG/Combo-Guard like Wesbrook in the upcoming draft?
Because a top 15 pick needs more than 8 minutes in his main role. JOB is still coach and if Mike is here he's the SG. The only reason you take W'brook with Mike here is because you plan to move him during the year or at the latest prior to the next draft.

That's me, a guy who doesn't see W'brook as a PG.

I also think you 100% cash out on Dun now while he's at the top of his game. He's redundent, he's NOT a defensive SG solution and Danny just showed that he's starting to feel comfortable as the #1 scoring option, including from 3.

So Dun becomes a 3-4 assist extra Danny with little ability to defend the SG spot? How's that help this situation?

OTOH he currently has value, not every team is sitting with a 3pt ace young star at SF. Not every team is riddled with defensive issues. Some of them could use A vet with lots of offensive punch.

Dunleavy is for a team that is PLAYOFF READY, and not one that counts on him as the guy leading the team into the playoffs (obviously, see GS/IND recent years). The Pacers aren't that team, they are SUPPOSED TO BE REBUILDING.

I'd move Jeff too except that he does do something you badly need which is play smart big man defense and get rebounds, plus it comes at a lower cost.


I'm not anti-moving JO. I really like what JO can be, but I would also move him and Troy if possible. All 3 of those guys, plus Tins, are players that ultimately don't make sense if you are really rebuilding.

Look, here's the hard fact on it, Mike looks great NOW. But consider the times when we wouldn't have traded JO or Tins and look where that ended up.

As much as Mike improved his 3pt shot, he still didn't really improve any other aspect of his game. Frankly when you look at his per36 at Basketball-Reference I don't think his MIP case looks all that strong. OREB is down, assists are average for him (3.5 per36), everything is about the same otherwise.

So if the perception on him is that he had this big improvement and is now earning his deal and perhaps some outsiders think this the first step to bigger things, then you deal him before people find out this is all you get.

I wish Troy, JO and Tins had that outside view but they don't. On Tins I think you just punt for team chemistry sake because the cost won't be nearly as high as "eating" the Troy or JO deals on a bad trade.



When I hear "combo guard" I think of a shooting guard with a body of a point guard and who has at least Kofi convinced he has even a small chance of learning to be a point guard some day through coaching.
fixed ;)

Sorry Kofi, but I've made the point all year that UCLA put Collison, not Westbrook, into the PG role nearly all the time. If Westbrook is truly an NBA PG just waiting for some coaching then wasn't this the year to see that? Why wouldn't UCLA just go ahead and make that happen and let Collison come off the bench or flank off to the combo spot himself most of the time?


Westbrook as the DEFENSIVE SG with a knack for loose balls/rebounds and at least the Fred Jones ability to drive to the rim for a score is fine with me. Move Dun for another pick (say PORT if possible) and let Westbrook see as much time as possible right away. Maybe he goes behind Quis or Rush or something to start, but ultimately you are placing him into this system.

Also you could draft Love with an eye toward ultimately moving JO/Troy, and this should be a goal in a rebuild, then deal Mike to get a guy like Rush as your defensive SG.

Maybe the awful to think about JO for Marbury fills the PG spot next year and then you address that issue. Maybe you trade Shawne for Lowry.

PG - Marbury, Lowry, Diener
SG - Quis, B Rush
SF - Danny
PF - Troy, Love
C - Foster, Troy

Then Marbury goes and either Lowry is working out or you look to make a move for that solution. By then Troy's deal is also movable. Draft a big, maybe sign a PG or SG and you have a ton of young talent with just a few vets sprinkled in, Danny being one of them by then.

Naptown_Seth
04-15-2008, 01:24 PM
One thing again on Love and potential. The dude is a FRESHMAN. Everyone is willing to see improvement in all these other guys, but why not Love?

Because he already plays a smart game? Sure, but since when was there a cap on that. To me learning and game smarts are skills just like jumping. When Love learns to pull the chair on guys in the post, learns even slicker ways to lock guys out on rebounds, how to draw fouls on offense, reading potential charge situations ala JO, etc he'll be even better.

To me he's proven that he understands the game and can learn the game just as much as Rose proved he could score and dribble or Beasley proved he could go to either hand.

Unlike some of these guys with physical abilites that have yet to be properly applied, Love has shown he can apply some of his NBA caliber skills to the game. You aren't crossing your fingers that he can translate his IQ test and SAT scores to the game like you are hoping a guy with a great vert and size can via "potential".

He's already made good on some of his potential. He's not the only one, but I'm just saying that why hope that Thabeet can learn stuff he's yet to learn when Love has already proven that he can learn and improve at a young age?

Speed
04-15-2008, 01:33 PM
What's the difference between a combo guard and a scoring PG who's between 6'2" and 6'4"? Gilbert Arenas was considered a combo guard coming out of college. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that a guy like Chauncey Billups was also. Really, any guard with decent but not ideal height gets labeled a combo guard coming out. Some guys learn to play PG and that's how we think of them, but they're not "pure" PG's like Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc. I'd bet that you could find some pundits who referred to Deron Williams as a combo guard because he mainly played off the ball in college.

I see PG as old school/make guys around you better. Deron is a PG. AI and Arenas aren't. They do transcend their size cuz they can score and bunches, but they are much better when coupled with another guard who is a facilitator (Eric Snow in Phillie with AI.)

I don't consider AI or Arenas as combo guards or a Point Guard by any stretch just because they are that size, they are undersized scorers.

If you like Mayo or Eric Gordan at the next level, I think you like there scoring ability, regardless. I don't think you go into it and think they can run a team. Maybe Foye is the same way, we'll see.

Chauncey is the main exception, but struggled mightily in the early going in his career until he made himself a true point guard, which is a complete mindset change from how these guys are the star of each of there respective teams their entire life. My point is, its really really hard to become a true Point Guard.

Things you have to think about wit these combo guards, can they guard either position effectively on most nights? Can they lead a fast break or run the offense, unselfishly, putting their own scoring aside for the good of the team. Or conversely, can they get their shot off over bigger players at the 2 guard spot.

I'm dating myself, but Shaun Respert was like college player of the year, but he was a college shooting guard who couldn't play big enough to play shooting guard at the NBA level and in no way would be confused with a point guard.

Is Ben Gordan a combo guard or just a small scoring/shooting guard.

I guess my whole point (pun intended) is that true Point Guards are really rare and the term Combo guard means nothing to me, if part of the combo is not a point guard who can run a team and sacrifice his glory for his teammates.

I'd rather have a Jose Claderon vs a Marcus Banks, just for a tangible example.

Fred Jones was about as far away from a Point Guard as you can get, I rather not revisit that whole deal again.

Speed
04-15-2008, 01:44 PM
One thing again on Love and potential. The dude is a FRESHMAN. Everyone is willing to see improvement in all these other guys, but why not Love?

Because he already plays a smart game? Sure, but since when was there a cap on that. To me learning and game smarts are skills just like jumping. When Love learns to pull the chair on guys in the post, learns even slicker ways to lock guys out on rebounds, how to draw fouls on offense, reading potential charge situations ala JO, etc he'll be even better.

To me he's proven that he understands the game and can learn the game just as much as Rose proved he could score and dribble or Beasley proved he could go to either hand.

Unlike some of these guys with physical abilites that have yet to be properly applied, Love has shown he can apply some of his NBA caliber skills to the game. You aren't crossing your fingers that he can translate his IQ test and SAT scores to the game like you are hoping a guy with a great vert and size can via "potential".

He's already made good on some of his potential. He's not the only one, but I'm just saying that why hope that Thabeet can learn stuff he's yet to learn when Love has already proven that he can learn and improve at a young age?

My biggest fear is Bird has already fallen in love with Love and will be duped to moving up to get him. I think his ceiling is lower for the reasons you state. He is smart, but he's not physically going to get any bigger, at least height wise.

I suppose maybe he can really really bulk up and be a Boozer/Karl Malone type body, but I worry he's going to be a step slow and blocked shot waiting to happen, while guys shoot over and around him all day. He has the body to look like he may get really fat or really strong. He has tree trunk legs.

I just don't see him more than a back up power forward playing 18 minutes a night, in his prime. And absolutely its too early to say that, but thats what we are looking at.

Maybe I'm wrong, and smart is valuable at the next level, but can you see him guarding the other power forwards in the NBA, at all?

OakMoses
04-15-2008, 01:56 PM
Is Ben Gordan a combo guard or just a small scoring/shooting guard.

I guess my whole point (pun intended) is that true Point Guards are really rare and the term Combo guard means nothing to me, if part of the combo is not a point guard who can run a team and sacrifice his glory for his teammates.


I agree with you for the most part. What the term "combo guard" means to me is "a guy who's too small to play shooting guard, but doesn't have traditional point guard skills."

It's all a bit pointless as it's nothing more than a label. There aren't 30 highly talented "true" PG's in the world, so not every NBA team can have one. That's why you invent a term like "combo guard" so you can talk about guys like Monta Ellis, Leandro Barbosa, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, etc.

Kraft
04-15-2008, 02:05 PM
Combo guard? Simple explanation in today's basketball climate. It's a two-guard who has enough handle to bring the ball up the court.

Players get this label not because they're short, but rather because they can dribble but can't run an offense.

Edit: I don't really consider guys like Iverson or Arenas in this area. Those guys, and a few others, are special talents. There's no reason to pigeonhole them into any sort of term. AI is AI. Gil is Gil.

Major Cold
04-15-2008, 03:34 PM
Combo guard? Simple explanation in today's basketball climate. It's a two-guard who has enough handle to bring the ball up the court.

Players get this label not because they're short, but rather because they can dribble but can't run an offense.

Edit: I don't really consider guys like Iverson or Arenas in this area. Those guys, and a few others, are special talents. There's no reason to pigeonhole them into any sort of term. AI is AI. Gil is Gil.

So a combo guard can't be a special talent?

Dumars was the best combo guard I can think of. Are you saying that a Combo Guard is a Guard whose best position is the off guard, but he can play the point?

Ot is it that the guard is not a scorer, but can facilitate the offense when the point is out?

Rajah Brown
04-15-2008, 03:46 PM
intridcold-

Good call on Dumars. He was the guy I thought of too when
pondering the quintessential, 'combo' guy.

Kraft
04-15-2008, 03:46 PM
So a combo guard can't be a special talent?

That's not what I'm saying. What I mean is that the term combo guard, nowadays, is used to describe the 99 percent of guards forced to bring the ball up the court because no one else on the team could. And most of those guys aren't real facilitators.

Joe Dumars? Certainly a special talent. But there's just not many like him. Whereas, there's all sorts of true swingmen that can play the 2/3. And there's all sorts of forwards that can be effective off the bench at the 3/4 and 4/5. But real multi-dimensional guards? Mostly, my brain hurts watching a lot of the pretenders.

And if you look around the country at the college ranks, it just shows how there's a real lack of players who can run an offense. Just look at my alma mater, Purdue. The Boilers, even in a largely successful season, used all sorts of players to bring the ball up the court because they just didn't have a true point.

Down the road at IU, Armon Bassett wasn't too much the offense coordinator, either.

So when it comes time for the draft, there ends up being a lot of guys that never really developed point guard skills. But since they dribbled the ball up the court in college ...

Viola! A combo guard.

Will Galen
04-15-2008, 04:30 PM
Dumars was the best combo guard I can think of.

The Big O!

CableKC
04-15-2008, 04:39 PM
Because a top 15 pick needs more than 8 minutes in his main role. JOB is still coach and if Mike is here he's the SG. The only reason you take W'brook with Mike here is because you plan to move him during the year or at the latest prior to the next draft.

That's me, a guy who doesn't see W'brook as a PG.

I also think you 100% cash out on Dun now while he's at the top of his game. He's redundent, he's NOT a defensive SG solution and Danny just showed that he's starting to feel comfortable as the #1 scoring option, including from 3.

So Dun becomes a 3-4 assist extra Danny with little ability to defend the SG spot? How's that help this situation?

OTOH he currently has value, not every team is sitting with a 3pt ace young star at SF. Not every team is riddled with defensive issues. Some of them could use A vet with lots of offensive punch.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Dunleavy should be traded for the various reasons that you suggest. The problem is that I just don't think that any team is going to pay that much to get a player that is paid Starter $$$ that is best suited to be a 6th Man without giving us back something that we don't want or is somewhat equal in value.

I completely agree with you that IF we have the opportunity to move Dunleavy, then we should. If he could be traded where we don't get back a useless player that not only fits some need that we have ( ie, perimeter defender, PG or Defensive Big Man ) but doesn't further erodes our Salary Cap situation, then no problem.......trade Dunleavy. I'm just realistic enough to realize that this ( more then likely ) won't happen. I'm not suggeting that we should keep Dunleavy cuz I like how he plays and how well he fits onto this team, I'm suggesting that we keep him cuz we won't have any choice but to keep him.

But for argument's sake, approaching this from the "It's going to take time to get out from under this mess" POV, let's assume that we don't move Dunleavy ( which I don't think is likely ). If Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and JONeal isn't moved....then what do you do?

Draft the best player available?

or

Draft the best player at a position of need?

At the 11th/12th spot, I don't think that any player that we draft at the 11th/12th spot is going to be good enough to immediately warrant playing significant playing time in their Rookie season. The key for me in drafting a player and then developing them is simply trying to find a minimal amount of consistent minutes for him to play. As I mentioned before, if we move Marquis ( which I think has a better chance of happening then moving Dunleavy ) and we don't resign any of our existing FA Guards ( Kareem and Flip ); then I don't see why we wouldn't anything more then a consistent 10-15 minutes as a Backup SG ( which I prefer to start Westbrook as ). This way, he can start getting his feet wet by getting consistent minutes as a Backup SG with the secondary objective of learning how to run the point. As long as that is a consistent set of minutes that he gets...regardless of how we are doing in the game...then I am okay with that in his rookie year. By the 2009-2010 season, we can then re-evaluate where we stand. At that point....assuming that Dunleavy continues his current performance....it maybe easier to move him.

BTW....if Kevin Love is available at the 11th / 12th spot...then I agree with you...I would choose him over Westbrook.

rexnom
04-15-2008, 05:09 PM
We can't choose Westbrook over Love. Westbrook can at the least be effective as a perimeter defender/penetrator - two things this team sorely lacks.

And who knows, kid might develop some decent play-making skills/big scoring skills.

Westbrook is a good pick on overall talent/potential

I seriously doubt he falls to 13.

Gamble1
04-15-2008, 05:36 PM
I think we have to build for when JO isn't here. That could be this summer or when his contract runs out.

The argument over perimeter defense vs. interior is insignifant. We just need defense and I might add a post presence outside of JO.


I agree with you rexnom that westbrook will probably be gone. He has that upside that makes all the gms drool.

I personally would take Love over Westbrook for just two reasons. He has size and is smart. Westbrook has so much more potential but to me the safest pick is Love.

The best case scenario for me is to snag Love and Robin Lopez. I doubt it will happen but I can dream right.

This would provide future interior D and and offense threat that could spread the floor for our sg/sf.

Kaufman
04-15-2008, 06:27 PM
I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.

Will Galen
04-15-2008, 06:58 PM
I think we have to build for when JO isn't here. That could be this summer or when his contract runs out.

It's possible he could opt out this summer, but very unlikely.

Kaufman
04-15-2008, 07:03 PM
Opt out - he won't find anyone to pay him what he's making right now. it would be nice it we could opt out of him

Kraft
04-15-2008, 07:04 PM
I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.

I agree, and try not to use it myself. It's a lot easier to talk about a player's real skills.

Will Galen
04-15-2008, 07:13 PM
I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.

There's nothing wrong with the term, it's when people give their own definition (what the word means to them) instead of using the dictionary's definition that cause them not to understand each other.

Here's a good article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_guard

Tweener (basketball)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


<!-- start content --> A tweener in basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball) is a term, sometimes used derisively, for a player who is able to play two positions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_position), but is not ideally suited to play either position exclusively, so he/she is said to be in between. This term is most commonly used only at the highest level of basketball competition, where players must combine extreme physical talent with specialised basketball abilities. A tweener has a set of skills that does not match the traditional position of his physical stature.
NBA.com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA.com)'s definition of 'tweener is as follows:
<dl><dd>"This word is derived from the word "between", as in a player is between the height of a guard and a forward. "Tweeners" often have the skills of a big man, but the height of a guard. Though only six foot five, Charles Barkley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Barkley), a tweener, was one of the NBA's greatest rebounding power forwards."</dd></dl> A player who is ideally suited to play two positions is often referred to as a swingman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman).
<script type="text/javascript">//<![CDATA[ if (window.showTocToggle) { var tocShowText = "show"; var tocHideText = "hide"; showTocToggle(); } //]]> </script>
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tweener_%28basketball%29&action=edit&section=1)] Power Forward/Center (Forward-Center)

This tweener has the skills of either a Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_%28basketball%29) or a Power Forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_forward_%28basketball%29) but is usually stronger than traditional Power Forwards and quicker than traditional Centers. Many times C/PF tweeners are used to create match-up problems. Amare Stoudemire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amare_Stoudemire) is an example of such a player. Other prominent players who switch between Power Forward and Center are Jermaine O'Neal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_O%27Neal), Emeka Okafor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeka_Okafor), Tim Duncan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan), Pau Gasol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Gasol), Dirk Nowitzki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki), and Dwight Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Howard), among others.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tweener_%28basketball%29&action=edit&section=2)] Small Forward/Power Forward (combo forward)

Traditionally a PF/SF tweener refers to a basketball player whose physical attributes and skills render him/her unsuited to play either the power forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_forward_%28basketball%29) position or the small forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_forward) position. For example the player may be too short, or lack sufficient strength, to play power forward effectively; while being not quick or athletic enough to play the small forward position. Some examples are Antoine Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Walker), Lamar Odom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_Odom), Antawn Jamison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antawn_Jamison), Boris Diaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Diaw), Marcus Fizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Fizer), Drew Gooden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Gooden), and Al Harrington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Harrington). They have the skills to play either forward position, but do not necessarily fit either forward position exclusively. They can be too big for most opposing small forwards to guard them and have a skill set that small forwards traditionally have (ex. outside scoring ability). Typical examples of European combo forwards are the retired Toni Kukoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Kukoc) and the currently active Andrei Kirilenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Kirilenko_%28basketball%29).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tweener_%28basketball%29&action=edit&section=3)] Shooting Guard/ Small Forward (Guard-Forward)

This tweener isn't suited to exclusively play either small forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_forward) or shooting guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_guard). For example, he may be too short to play small forward, but lacks a guard's jumper or ball-handling skills to play the two-man. To counter this, this tweener could play as a swingman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman).
Some swingmen have been known to play both the small forward and shooting guard position effectively, having the size and strength to play the small forward position, as well as the outside jumpshot and quickness to play the shooting guard position. These tweeners are known to cause matchup problems, and have proven to be very difficult to guard. Such players are Josh Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Howard), Kobe Bryant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant), and Tracy McGrady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracy_McGrady).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tweener_%28basketball%29&action=edit&section=4)] Shooting Guard / Point Guard (combo guard)

"Tweener" may also describe a player who combines the attributes of a shooting guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_guard) and point guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard) but does not fit the prototype of either position. Such guards usually play a shooting-guard-type game (looking more to score than to pass) but lack the height to guard opposing shooting guards and the skills to direct an offense that a "pure" point would display. Such players are also known as "combination (combo) guards". But after the success of Dwyane Wade during the 2004-05 season, there has been less stigma attached to the term and many current elite prospects are combo guards (Randy Foye, Eric Gordon, O.J. Mayo, Jarred Bayless).
Most commonly, shooting guards are called 'tweeners' when considered too short for NBA-level competition. Conversely, they are unable to play point guard successfully at the highest level of professional basketball due to a lack of the mental specialization and understanding of the game that this position requires. These players are often referred to as being "a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body." Some good examples of this are Allen Iverson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Iverson), Gilbert Arenas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Arenas), Baron Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Davis), Jason Terry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Terry), Juan Dixon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Dixon), Steve Francis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Francis), Eddie House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_House), John Paxson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paxson), Steve Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kerr), Danny Ainge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Ainge), and Luther Head (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Head). This is in stark contrast to pass-first type point guards who traditionally play the position such as Jamaal Tinsley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaal_Tinsley), Jason Kidd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Kidd), Andre Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Miller) and Steve Nash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash) among others. A great example of a European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague) combo guard is Panathinaikos' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panathinaikos_BC) Vasileios Spanoulis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasileios_Spanoulis). Dwyane Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwyane_Wade) is also a combo guard, despite being a pass first guard and also being a shooting guard.
<table style="margin: 0pt auto;" id="toc" align="center"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="5" bgcolor="#ffa500">
Basketball positions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_position) v (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Basketball_Positions) • d (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Basketball_Positions) • e (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Basketball_Positions&action=edit)

</th> </tr> <tr> <td rowspan="2">Guards</td> <td rowspan="5">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Basketball_positions.svg/120px-Basketball_positions.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Basketball_positions.svg)</td> <td>1. Point guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard)</td> <td>Combo guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_guard) (PG/SG)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2. Shooting guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_guard)</td> <td>Swingman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman) (SG/SF)</td> </tr> <tr> <td rowspan="2">Forwards</td> <td>3. Small forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_forward)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4. Power forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_forward_%28basketball%29)</td> <td>Point forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_forward) (PG/PF)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Center</td> <td>5. Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_%28basketball%29)</td> <td>Forward-center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-center) (PF/C)</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- NewPP limit report Preprocessor node count: 134/1000000 Post-expand include size: 3791/2048000 bytes Template argument size: 184/2048000 bytes #ifexist count: 0/500 --> <!-- Saved in parser cache with key enwiki:pcache:idhash:2180531-0!1!0!default!!en!2 and timestamp 20080405233933 --> Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_%28basketball%29"

Kraft
04-15-2008, 08:29 PM
Well thank God Wikipedia cleared that up.

rm1369
04-15-2008, 08:41 PM
If Westbrook is truly an NBA PG just waiting for some coaching then wasn't this the year to see that? Why wouldn't UCLA just go ahead and make that happen and let Collison come off the bench or flank off to the combo spot himself most of the time?



UCLA must have felt he has some ability to play PG, as from the UCLA games I saw he was the backup PG and essentially shared playmaking duties with Collison. Collison did typically bring the ball across half court though. IIRC Westbrook started the first 6 games of the season at PG while Collison was injured. He averaged 6 apg and had a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. Granted those games were not against the greatest competiotion. But for the year he averaged more assists than Collison - and slightly less FGA. Certainly there is more to being a PG than that, but Westbrook, IMO, doesn't fit the mode of the feared "short SG". I'll admit I only saw a handfull of UCLA games so maybe the ones I saw were abberations.

rm1369
04-15-2008, 09:00 PM
I'd also like to say the single biggest quality I want from a PG is the ability to play D. Not necessarily rack up steals, but I want someone with the ability to disrupt the opposing teams offense by not allowing their PG to get where he wants to go and most importantly doesn't allow him to penetrate at will. Perimeter D is more important than interior D IMO. Maybe only a little, but penetration just kills every aspect of a defense - including rebounding. IMO, it is much easier to recover from doubling the post than it is to recover from dribble penetration.

For any player that is what I look at first - can they guard the position they will play? Offenses can easily be structured tp take advantage of (or hide) unique skills (or deficencies) of players such as a bigman that can shoot the three, a PG that likes to play in the post, or facillitation of the offence through other players. So my preference would be to have a short scoring / defensive SG playing PG than Travis Diener. I mean no one would mistake Flip for a PG, but if he was an above average defender would PG still be the Pacers biggest need? Not to me. And I believe Westbrook will be a much better playmaker than Flip.

RomanGabriel
04-15-2008, 10:35 PM
I think we still have a shot at the #10 pick. If the Nets can beat the Celtics tomorrow and we get punked by the Knicks I believe that we "beat" the Nets in the tiebreaker for 10th. So we've got that going for us.

Kaufman
04-15-2008, 10:40 PM
god bless wiki

Anthem
04-15-2008, 11:21 PM
I think we still have a shot at the #10 pick. If the Nets can beat the Celtics tomorrow and we get punked by the Knicks I believe that we "beat" the Nets in the tiebreaker for 10th. So we've got that going for us.
Neither of those is going to happen, and even if we tied it would be settled by a coin, not a tiebreaker.

We've got #11.

Kofi
04-16-2008, 07:59 AM
Mario Chalmers lacks size and the skills to be anything better than a below average backup in the NBA. He can shoot, and that's about it. I'd be ok with taking him in the second round, but anyone who suggests taking him with our own pick might be a little off in the head. No offense.

Draft Express has him going #26 next year. NBADraft.net has him going #26 this year.

Westbrook with our own 1st, and trade for a second 1st to pick up Chalmers in the 20's? Two of the best perimeter defenders in the draft.

Major Cold
04-16-2008, 08:22 AM
It seems like with a guy like Dunleavy on the team we could afford to run a combo type at the point. Someone like westbrook who would be great in transition would do great in Obie's system, than you could always have dunleavy run the offense in the half court set. Meanwhile Westbrook plays excellent defense on the perimeter.

As somebody mentioned, Randy Foye is another guy who could fill this role, he is also a better jumpshooter than westbrook. If westbrook was gone when we pick I would like to see what combo of williams, diogu, and the #11 pick could fetch him. Minny getting Rose would make this more feasable.

you know playmaking is not a huge problem on this team, we are 7th in the leauge in assists per game.

Westbrook can bring the ball up pass to Dun. Then Westbrook can hit screens for the curl or flare to the baseline three. He penetrates well, but has shown that he forces the shot more than anything. No matter what player we get that player is not going to solve all of our problems. The player will generate some excitement, but also frustration will arise.

A young guard who did not play sole PG is going to have a high TO rater. I see Westbrook doing this. The main reason why we faired well done the stretch was because we took care of the ball.

If we bring in a youth that has a major role on this team I do not think our record would fair better. But our players getting the experience is whats needed. And you can't beat playoff experience neither.

Major Cold
04-16-2008, 08:24 AM
Mario Chalmers lacks size and the skills to be anything better than a below average backup in the NBA. He can shoot, and that's about it. I'd be ok with taking him in the second round, but anyone who suggests taking him with our own pick might be a little off in the head. No offense.

Draft Express has him going #26 next year. NBADraft.net has him going #26 this year.

Westbrook with our own 1st, and trade for a second 1st to pick up Chalmers in the 20's? Two of the best perimeter defenders in the draft.

Who would be the other defender? Chalmers? I thought "He can shoot, and that's about it"?

Kofi
04-16-2008, 08:30 AM
Who would be the other defender? Chalmers? I thought "He can shoot, and that's about it"?

Offensively, he can shoot and that's about it. He's a sub-par playmaker who rarely gets to the line. His defense is the only reason he's being considered a late 1st rounder as opposed to a late 2nd rounder.

Major Cold
04-16-2008, 09:33 AM
His role on the Jayhawks was to shoot and distribute [and play d]. Robinson and Rush did the penetrating and kicking.

Chalmers has incredible strength. I agree with you. I wouldn't reach for him with the 11 pick. But I would pick him over Collison and DJ in a heart beat.

Gamble1
04-16-2008, 01:14 PM
It's possible he could opt out this summer, but very unlikely.

Opt out or traded my point is that we need to start developing a big for the future. I see our main long term dilemmia is that we have no big for the future. This is either defensive or offensive.

I'll give you a scenerio. Say we trade for a big. He will be overpaid normally from the get go and further salary strap us. If we draft the big he will develop hopefully in 2/3 years to become a starter saving the Pacers money.

For the short term I believe drafting an average pg will probably get the Pacers to the playoffs next year. This of course will make it harder to build up the team.

So what I think I am saying is that an average point guard gets paid less than a average big man. As well i see a servicable point guard as easy to snag in trade than a big. Not sure if that makes sense.

Naptown_Seth
04-16-2008, 11:59 PM
I think all the drama started by defining "combo guard" proves my point - I think its a terrible term.
Mobley to me is a prime example of a very capable combo guard. He's not just catch and shooting or only dribbling for his own shot, he also can bring it up with at least some pressure on the ball and can work to spaces to get other guys shots.

But he's not great at setting up space and plays, he doesn't have the full passing arsenal to make good on everything he sees. But you do like to have him dribble more than you'd normally let your SG do.

The "point forward" is the same thing but applied to SF/PF players.

Quis was not PG enough to really be a combo it turns out. Fred Jones just loved passing after jumping into the air and could only go right anyway which is why he wasn't a great combo. If Best was a bit taller he might have been a combo. I think Rose was something of a combo, but he wanted to be a pure PG and he didn't have enough PG skill to be that.



I disagree strongly on Chalmers. He found guys with some really solid, smart passing that caught my attention. It's true that his role, the way the team ran, wasn't to just have him dominate the ball like Rose, Collison or Augustin did, it was far more of a shared duties situation (like Wash St too). But Chalmers showed nice fundamental passing, that true PG attitude, that suggested he got it far more than DJ and Collison often did as they fell into taking over way too much.

Tinsley vs PHX, that's what you often saw from DJ and Collison. I and others have said in this thread that the assumption is "if he had better options", except that Collison did. I never real saw Chalmers get addicted to his own dribble or shot. But he did seem to have a solid sense of where the ball needed to go on a given play.

And Rush...well he was anti-addicted to taking over at times. Passive to a fault.

Naptown_Seth
04-17-2008, 12:02 AM
you know playmaking is not a huge problem on this team, we are 7th in the leauge in assists per game.One issue I have with this is that a lot of those assists come on 3pt shots where the ball movement hasn't really created a wide open look. SOMETIMES yes, but not at the rate the assist per FGM would suggest. A lot of simple 2 man handoffs, dribble over the screen for a jumper, stuff like that where you didn't really see them break a team down and punish them with screens and deeper plays running several stages to get to a planned open look.

There was tons of improv and to me it showed. I can't fault the scoring results exactly, but I still would like to see more playmaking brought in.


If you want a late pick up for defensive stopping only then just get Weaver. You'll get him cheaper than Chalmers at this point, but he won't give you the offense nor the growth potential. My only knock on Mario is that all year I felt like he wasn't done yet, he has room to grow in college still (EJ too while we're on the subject).

Will Galen
04-17-2008, 12:21 AM
Opt out or traded my point is that we need to start developing a big for the future. I see our main long term dilemmia is that we have no big for the future. This is either defensive or offensive.



I want a big too. What I want is a point guard with our first pick, and then I want to trade up and get Robin Lopez for our big man.

blanket
04-17-2008, 01:52 AM
FYI, Westbrook is in fact entering the draft (but not yet hiring an agent)

http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_8952361

It says NBA personnel think he'll go 15-25. If he were on the board at 11 and we passed on him, a lot of people here would be upset.

Kofi
04-17-2008, 02:14 AM
How ironic would it be if Mario Chalmers and Mateen Cleaves ended up on the same NBDL team?

owl
04-17-2008, 07:37 AM
I want a big too. What I want is a point guard with our first pick, and then I want to trade up and get Robin Lopez for our big man.

Will, when I watch Robin play I think Jeff Foster. What is it about his game you find
appealing for the Pacers? I want a big who at least is great in at least one area and
capable at some point in the others. In this draft that means Thabeet, Love and maybe
Arthur off the top of my head at least from where the Pacers are picking.
Guard wise I see no one available at 11 who would not be a reach.

Anthem
04-17-2008, 09:25 AM
It says NBA personnel think he'll go 15-25. If he were on the board at 11 and we passed on him, a lot of people here would be upset.
Who knows at this point. Some guys will shoot up and others will drop. It seems, though, that one of Westbrooke/Love/Augustin should be on the board when we pick.

Gamble1
04-17-2008, 11:25 AM
Will, when I watch Robin play I think Jeff Foster. What is it about his game you find
appealing for the Pacers? I want a big who at least is great in at least one area and
capable at some point in the others. In this draft that means Thabeet, Love and maybe
Arthur off the top of my head at least from where the Pacers are picking.
Guard wise I see no one available at 11 who would not be a reach.

He will be slightly bigger than Jeff with more defensive energy that is why I like him. I think with the Pacers that we always need a hustler/energy guy. Someone to be a catalyst for a defensive mindset. Armstrong was that 2 years ago but now we don't have that guy.

MyFavMartin
04-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Need to invite Shaun Pruitt from U of I to camp. A potential sleeper who was on a team with bad guard play. Has size and decent low post game. No character issues with either as far as I can remember.


The thought of DJ White in the 2nd round is growing on me. A banger like him or Dorsey or Hendrix would be nice. I think DJ has more offense than those two, but less defense.

Kraft
04-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Shaun Pruitt was benched, IIRC, twice this year because of behavior. He was just a pain in the arse for Weber. Later in the season, he admitted to not listening and being in the wrong mindset for most of his Illini career. Many players on the team thought it was hard to develop team chemistry because of the way he -- a would-be leader -- acted. Perhaps his late-year revelation helped him out, but he's kind of a headcase.

Oh, and he was schooled by Nemanja Calasan in the first game against Purdue this year. Calasan repeatedly kept him from getting the ball in the post, and he's likely only 6-foot-6.

Jonathan
04-17-2008, 12:21 PM
I think the Pacers need to take a good look at this STEVE Forbes kid form UMASS. I know we do not need another 2/3 but this guy really scores the ball. I watched him in the NIT and was impressed w/ his offensive game. He also is having a good showing at Portsmouth. He will provide our team with instant offense off the bench.

My non drafted invitee hopefull is Jaycee Carroll.

OakMoses
04-17-2008, 12:49 PM
I think the Pacers need to take a good look at this STEVE Forbes kid form UMASS. I know we do not need another 2/3 but this guy really scores the ball. I watched him in the NIT and was impressed w/ his offensive game. He also is having a good showing at Portsmouth. He will provide our team with instant offense off the bench.

My non drafted invitee hopefull is Jaycee Carroll.

This team doesn't really need instant offense unless it comes from inside the paint. We didn't lose games this season because we couldn't score enough points. We lost them because we couldn't stop anybody.

esabyrn333
04-17-2008, 12:57 PM
I just searched every mock draft I could find on google. NBADraft.net has us taking McGee and every other one has us taking DJ Augustin. I don't know who's Mock draft is the best but I know I would be happy with Augustin.

I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and Will Purdue was saying he had just worked out the Lopez twins and he said Brook is more NBA ready but he said Robin was more atheletic and the he think Robin is going to be the better twin. He says he is better than Anderson Varejao (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/974/anderson_varejao/) is right now. That is something to look at IMO I like him over alot of the other bigs in this draft.

Jonathan
04-17-2008, 01:14 PM
This team doesn't really need instant offense unless it comes from inside the paint. We didn't lose games this season because we couldn't score enough points. We lost them because we couldn't stop anybody.

I apologize his name is Gary Forbes not Steve Forbes. Here is what draft express says about him after Portsmouth.
Standing just a shade under 6-7, with a nice build at 216 pounds, good strength, an excellent 6-10 ¾ wingspan, and solid, although not freakish athleticism—Forbes was well equipped to overwhelm virtually any defender that was thrown at him on the wing. The fact that he’s tough, aggressive, an excellent ball-handler and has a very advanced scoring instincts clearly did not hurt. Forbes can go either left or right with excellent body control and loves to use crafty spin moves and hesitation dribbles to keep his defender guessing about his next move. He’s strong enough to just bully players to the rim at the collegiate level, and gets to the free throw line at a superb rate, but at times isn’t quite explosive enough to finish around the rim. At times he got caught over-penetrating into the lane, looking a bit out of control in the process. Forbes is also a very adept passer as his outrageous 8.7 assists per game in this tournament would indicate—his court vision is strong and he seemed very motivated to create shots for others, which wasn’t always the case at times at the collegiate level—where his shot-selection often seemed questionable. He shot just 41% from the field and 29% for 3 at UMass, dominating the ball on a team that probably needed him to play a bit selfishly at times. Forbes can hit 3-pointers, as he showed at this tournament and by connecting on 1.6 attempts per game, but he’s still way too streaky and will surely need to improve this part of his game if he’s going to stick at the next level.

Defensively, Forbes did not have to guard power forwards like he did at UMass often his senior year, which helped us evaluate his pro prospects more effectively. His size, length and strength are all impressive for a swingman, and will clearly help him at the next level, but his average lateral quickness raises some doubts about whether he’ll be trusted enough on this end of the floor to see many minutes. Shedding some weight, getting smarter and improving his footwork will be a must for him to stick in the NBA down the road, but he has the tools to do so if he commits himself.

CableKC
04-17-2008, 02:08 PM
He will be slightly bigger than Jeff with more defensive energy that is why I like him. I think with the Pacers that we always need a hustler/energy guy. Someone to be a catalyst for a defensive mindset. Armstrong was that 2 years ago but now we don't have that guy.
Although I do not mind having another "Jeff Foster-like" player in our Big Man rotation ( given the way our offense/defense works, we can never have enough of those ), I think that Frontcourt Hustle/Energy type players that can come in and do a decent job of defending in the Low-Post while providing energy and rebounding can be found through FA.

Will Galen
04-17-2008, 03:47 PM
Will, when I watch Robin play I think Jeff Foster. What is it about his game you find
appealing for the Pacers? I want a big who at least is great in at least one area and
capable at some point in the others. In this draft that means Thabeet, Love and maybe
Arthur off the top of my head at least from where the Pacers are picking.
Guard wise I see no one available at 11 who would not be a reach.

A Jeff Foster that blocks shots too, wouldn't be bad.

Maybe it's a reach, but really what I'm thinking is theres really not much difference in twins potential, so if Brook is worthy of the 3rd pick in the draft why not try for Robin with our second round pick? (#41) He's already an excellent defender and his offense was getting better at the end of the year.

Chad Ford has him ranked 31st, but I think he will go in the first round, probably around 18-30, so we would have to make a trade. Thabeet and Love appeal to me too.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=InOut

Brook Lopez (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19042), C, Stanford
Brook Lopez has the physical tools and offensive abilities to be an excellent NBA player. He has great size, length and above-average athleticism. He's an effective scorer in the paint and can stretch the defense away from the basket. Right now he projects as the top center in the draft and a potential Top 5 pick.

Robin Lopez (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19045), C, Stanford
Robin Lopez is more athletic and has a better motor than his brother. He's an active rebounder and excellent shot-blocker. He lacks any real polish on the offensive end of the floor, but he has improved in that area this season. Right now teams see him as a defensive stopper in the Anderson Varejao mold. He's probably a late first to early second-round pick.

Gamble1
04-17-2008, 04:00 PM
Although I do not mind having another "Jeff Foster-like" player in our Big Man rotation ( given the way our offense/defense works, we can never have enough of those ), I think that Frontcourt Hustle/Energy type players that can come in and do a decent job of defending in the Low-Post while providing energy and rebounding can be found through FA.

You could say that about any position.

To me this draft is all about the safest pick that will provide the long term building blocks that will get us past the 1st round playoffs. I think most of the time we look at the draft and see potential with alot of question marks. Is the guy big/tall enough? Does he have a good work ethic? Is he just a tweener or can he develop pg skills. With Robin Lopez you know what you are going to get. High energy, offensive rebounds and a 7'0 defensive presence in the middle. He has the potential to eat more and get bigger so he will surpass Jeff Foster in his ability to be an actual Center.

Offensively he has as much rust as a high school urinal but thats not to say we can't throw a mint in there and freshen him up abit. Certianly he can be more than Jeff "The Clank" Foster.

Lastly Bigs cost more. The FA is the last place I would want to get a big man. MOst of them just pad their stats in their contract year anyhow.
Can someone say Erick Dampier.

CableKC
04-17-2008, 05:33 PM
Offensively he has as much rust as a high school urinal but thats not to say we can't throw a mint in there and freshen him up abit. Certianly he can be more than Jeff "The Clank" Foster.
Good one....:laugh:


Lastly Bigs cost more. The FA is the last place I would want to get a big man. MOst of them just pad their stats in their contract year anyhow.
Can someone say Erick Dampier.
Erick Dampier...there, I said it :D

If we draft Westbrook at the 11th spot...,and somehow acquired a 2nd 1st rounder....then I wouldn't mind drafting Robin Lopez as some pseudo-hybrid-lovechild of Anderson Varajeo and Joakim Noah. But Robin Lopez at the 11th spot is too high for him to be drafted.

Hicks
04-17-2008, 05:44 PM
Well Love and Rush are both in the draft now.

CableKC
04-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Interesting....when I read Ford's blurb about Marreese Speights, I'm thinking that this is the type of player that Bird would want to replace JONeal with.



ESPN.COM
Written by Chad Ford

Marreese Speights, F/C, Florida*
Speights is one of the most efficient low-post scorers in college basketball. He's not especially flashy, but can be brutally effective in the paint, both scoring and grabbing rebounds. Scouts question his position a little and his conditioning, but overall they project him as a late lottery to mid first-round pick.

Pacemaker
04-17-2008, 06:17 PM
The machine tendency is the Pacers drafting D.J. Augustin with the 11th pick. Wanna play? Here's the link. Tells us your results.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2008/mockdraft

duke dynamite
04-17-2008, 06:19 PM
We've been doing this for months now. It is neat, though.

QuickRelease
04-17-2008, 09:48 PM
Top pick after about 5 tries. Had us picking Rose. Mostly comes out at number 11, selecting Augustin.

Will Galen
04-17-2008, 10:00 PM
I did it 129 times last night and got B. Lopez 4 times with the 3 rd pick, and the rest were all Augustine at the 11, 12, and 13, spots.

However, I think Bird is going big from what was said in the Simon transcript and on the Jim O'B show.

O'B siad on his show they didn't think there was a point guard that would start for them in the draft other than Rose.

So the thing to do is look at the bigs after the Pacers pick and you will get a better idea of who the Pacers will pick.

Gamble1
04-17-2008, 10:57 PM
Interesting....when I read Ford's blurb about Marreese Speights, I'm thinking that this is the type of player that Bird would want to replace JONeal with.

Sounds like another version of IKE to me.

Gamble1
04-17-2008, 11:00 PM
Good one....:laugh:


Erick Dampier...there, I said it :D

If we draft Westbrook at the 11th spot...,and somehow acquired a 2nd 1st rounder....then I wouldn't mind drafting Robin Lopez as some pseudo-hybrid-lovechild of Anderson Varajeo and Joakim Noah. But Robin Lopez at the 11th spot is too high for him to be drafted.

I totally agree thats to high for Robin.. I also think its to high for a undersized shooting guard who you hope can develop into a pg. :D
There are no easy choices here but drafting off of a second string pg is risky at best.

skyfire
04-17-2008, 11:29 PM
There are a couple of Aussies projected to go late first round to second round in the coming draft.

Nathan Jawai 6-10 280 PF/C 1986

a flat out bruiser, a developing offensive game. might lack the quickness to play in Ob's system. Could be David Harrison without the crazy.

Joe Ingles 6-8 195 SF 1987

the lefty, aussie version of dunleavy. smart player, good offensive instincts, can shoot from range, deceptive quicks. needs to improve his lateral movement on defense, right handed ball handling and consistency on his shot.

Young
04-17-2008, 11:34 PM
Sounds like another version of IKE to me.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe just a little bigger

Hicks
04-18-2008, 12:10 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe just a little bigger

Wait, what? Isn't he listed at 6'10"? That makes him at least 2 inches taller than Ike.

Pacemaker
04-18-2008, 03:49 AM
Is Lopez better than Hibbert?


I did it 129 times last night and got B. Lopez 4 times with the 3 rd pick, and the rest were all Augustine at the 11, 12, and 13, spots.

However, I think Bird is going big from what was said in the Simon transcript and on the Jim O'B show.

O'B siad on his show they didn't think there was a point guard that would start for them in the draft other than Rose.

So the thing to do is look at the bigs after the Pacers pick and you will get a better idea of who the Pacers will pick.

Will Galen
04-18-2008, 03:56 AM
Is Lopez better than Hibbert?

Brook Lopez is higher rated than Hibbert, but Robin Lopez is lower rated. I think most of us on here would rather have either Lopez.

Major Cold
04-18-2008, 09:45 AM
Speights is not Ike 2.0.

He has a greater chance at being a starter than Arthur inmho.

mrknowname
04-18-2008, 10:45 AM
speights defense is terrible. i'd rather take a chance on ibaka or ajinca than speights