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JayRedd
03-30-2008, 06:55 PM
Tough game for Augustin, but you never judge a player based on one game. The fact is, Texas isn't a very talented team outside of D.J., whereas Memphis is stacked.

I hadn't realized how little he was until I saw him playing against all those Memphis guys who all have 19-foot wingspans. DJ looked outclassed out there. Couldn't find anyway to score. Couldn't finish at the rim. Couldn't even really blow by anyone. Tough to judge him on one game, but I didn't see much Big 12 this year so....

Kofi
03-30-2008, 07:19 PM
I hadn't realized how little he was until I saw him playing against all those Memphis guys who all have 19-foot wingspans. DJ looked outclassed out there. Couldn't find anyway to score. Couldn't finish at the rim. Couldn't even really blow by anyone. Tough to judge him on one game, but I didn't see much Big 12 this year so....

Well then you can't really have a valid opinion on him. He just took a team of scrubs to the Elite 8. That's impressive enough for me.

d_c
03-30-2008, 07:32 PM
I hadn't realized how little he was until I saw him playing against all those Memphis guys who all have 19-foot wingspans. DJ looked outclassed out there. Couldn't find anyway to score. Couldn't finish at the rim. Couldn't even really blow by anyone. Tough to judge him on one game, but I didn't see much Big 12 this year so....


That happens a lot to a whole lot of prospects people look at.


Well then you can't really have a valid opinion on him. He just took a team of scrubs to the Elite 8. That's impressive enough for me.

That's definitely true and he deserves his props for taking his team as far as he did, but the truth is that the type of guards he's going to face in the NBA are going to look a lot more like the ones from Memphis than the ones from Stanford.

That's no knock on him, tho. He's going to be in the NBA.

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't call Abrams a scrub...

I do agree on principle though. I'm not going to judge DJ based off this game. I though Rose was getting away with ALOT particularly in the first half.

JayRedd
03-30-2008, 07:34 PM
Well then you can't really have a valid opinion on him.

I don't.

Kofi
03-30-2008, 08:09 PM
That's definitely true and he deserves his props for taking his team as far as he did, but the truth is that the type of guards he's going to face in the NBA are going to look a lot more like the ones from Memphis than the ones from Stanford.

Yes, but in the NBA he'll have quality teammates to take the pressure off of him, so it evens itself out.

rexnom
03-30-2008, 08:09 PM
Well then you can't really have a valid opinion on him. He just took a team of scrubs to the Elite 8. That's impressive enough for me.
I think he can certainly have a valid opinion on him. He doesn't have to be a certified NBA scout to have a valid opinion. He saw the man play basketball and then formulated an opinion based on that. I'd say that's valid. Yes, it's JayRedd...but still, valid nonetheless.

Coop
03-30-2008, 08:18 PM
Well then you can't really have a valid opinion on him. He just took a team of scrubs to the Elite 8. That's impressive enough for me.


Your arrogance is wearing really thin. I enjoy reading your opinion on prospects, but quit acting like you are the only one here with any basketball knowledge.

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 08:22 PM
C'mon, you guys didn't know that Kofi is Marty Blake's
PD handle ?

d_c
03-30-2008, 08:46 PM
Yes, but in the NBA he'll have quality teammates to take the pressure off of him, so it evens itself out.

Of course, that applies to everyone.

But if he can't drive around a defender, he can't drive around a defender. There's not a lot your teammates can do for you in that regard, especially if you're the PG. I mean, you're the guy people are relying on to do most of the creating.

owl
03-30-2008, 08:55 PM
From where the Pacers are picking they need to go with a big man.

Jonathan
03-31-2008, 09:34 AM
I do not think D James will get drafted. We should def give him an invite to participate in summer ball.

I hope we can land D Rose the kid will be a better pro than Beasely IMO. I heard Bird say Beasely is hands down the best player in college in an interview. So if we land the number one pick he will draft Beasely over Rose.

NapTonius Monk
03-31-2008, 10:35 AM
I do not think D James will get drafted. We should def give him an invite to participate in summer ball.

I hope we can land D Rose the kid will be a better pro than Beasely IMO. I heard Bird say Beasely is hands down the best player in college in an interview. So if we land the number one pick he will draft Beasely over Rose.

I hope not, but you're probably right. Rose is an awesome PG, and I hold steadfast to the belief that a franchise PG is much harder to come by than another wing player.

Speed
03-31-2008, 10:39 AM
From where the Pacers are picking they need to go with a big man.


Maybe, I'm just being impatient right now and big men take such a long time to acclaimate. I really don't want them to reach for Thabeet or Hibbert and watch them ride the bench for 3 years.

I'm thinking the best prospect thats a non small forward. Any time I see teams draft for need they usually seem to passover a better player, it seems.

Of course if your sold on a Love type at the next level, he's already basketball smarter than half the guys in the league now, so I guess it depends.

PacerGuy
03-31-2008, 10:44 AM
I hope we can land D Rose the kid will be a better pro than Beasely IMO. I heard Bird say Beasely is hands down the best player in college in an interview. So if we land the number one pick he will draft Beasely over Rose.

I heard him say that too, but Rose is getting his air-time now, & at the EOD, adding another SF over a PG is not smart - unless he thinks Beasley is the next "IT". If so, Granger needs moved & the question them becomes:
"Is what Granger could bring in return better then Rose?"
I say very doubtful, & I like Rose better. (+ there are some "character issues" questions w/ Beasley from what I've heard)
Besides:
Ask Atlanta how picking hype over skill & need worled out for them!
Larry, Do not make the M.Williams/ C.Paul mistake - Rose will be a star!

(lets pray we have the opportunity to worry about such a choice!)

mrknowname
03-31-2008, 10:55 AM
no way in hell we get a shot at drafting rose or beasley. we probably won't even be picking top 8. it sucks being stuck in no mans land.

honestly i'm on the Danilo Gallinari bandwagon

Rajah Brown
03-31-2008, 11:07 AM
Danilo ! Danilo ! Danilo !

Hey, if we take him, at least maybe they'll upgrade the conscession
stand pizza down at Conseco !

Seriously though, isn't he probably just another SF (who, being a
Euro dude, probably can't defend to save his life) ?

Ballerzfan
03-31-2008, 11:31 AM
Lots of love for Love recently on the board. I don't see him as a top 10 choice for us, maybe someone else. I do like his game as he reminds me of a young version of Bill Laimbeer. Can pass, shoot, rebound and is a smart player, but I don't think we need him and Murph both. Dissimilar yet too similar game styles.

IMO we need to:
1) make a few major trades on draft day to get multiple 1st round picks before #15 and one needs to be top 3 with the ultimate goal of it being top 2
2) with those major moves, no one and I mean no one on our current roster should be exempt
3) Rose is our #1 priority in the top 2 scenario
4) we clean up the logjam at SF with these moves
5) we give whatever new players we bring in the playing time to mature. I don't care if they are rookies and we lose 65 games, I want to see development of our future.

Lets face it, if JO/Quis/Tinman/Murph stay for next season, they'll get significant playing time so that the Pacers can have the "best" team on the floor. Well it's time for the "best" team to take a backseat for our future imo. Look at how Philly and Portland's young players have responded to getting minutes. How do we accomplish this? We need to move those 4 or significant parts of those 4 along with anyone else necessary to facilitate starting a new team direction.

Thoughts?

Speed
03-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Lots of love for Love recently on the board. I don't see him as a top 10 choice for us, maybe someone else. I do like his game as he reminds me of a young version of Bill Laimbeer. Can pass, shoot, rebound and is a smart player, but I don't think we need him and Murph both. Dissimilar yet too similar game styles.

IMO we need to:
1) make a few major trades on draft day to get multiple 1st round picks before #15 and one needs to be top 3 with the ultimate goal of it being top 2
2) with those major moves, no one and I mean no one on our current roster should be exempt
3) Rose is our #1 priority in the top 2 scenario
4) we clean up the logjam at SF with these moves
5) we give whatever new players we bring in the playing time to mature. I don't care if they are rookies and we lose 65 games, I want to see development of our future.

Lets face it, if JO/Quis/Tinman/Murph stay for next season, they'll get significant playing time so that the Pacers can have the "best" team on the floor. Well it's time for the "best" team to take a backseat for our future imo. Look at how Philly and Portland's young players have responded to getting minutes. How do we accomplish this? We need to move those 4 or significant parts of those 4 along with anyone else necessary to facilitate starting a new team direction.

Thoughts?

I completely agree, but do they have the assets to move up that far. If you can move into the top two, but you have to trade Granger, is that a step forward.

Concept wise I think you are right, but I just don't know if they have the juice to pull it off.

colts19
03-31-2008, 11:51 AM
Lots of love for Love recently on the board. I don't see him as a top 10 choice for us, maybe someone else. I do like his game as he reminds me of a young version of Bill Laimbeer. Can pass, shoot, rebound and is a smart player, but I don't think we need him and Murph both. Dissimilar yet too similar game styles.

IMO we need to:
1) make a few major trades on draft day to get multiple 1st round picks before #15 and one needs to be top 3 with the ultimate goal of it being top 2
2) with those major moves, no one and I mean no one on our current roster should be exempt
3) Rose is our #1 priority in the top 2 scenario
4) we clean up the logjam at SF with these moves
5) we give whatever new players we bring in the playing time to mature. I don't care if they are rookies and we lose 65 games, I want to see development of our future.

Lets face it, if JO/Quis/Tinman/Murph stay for next season, they'll get significant playing time so that the Pacers can have the "best" team on the floor. Well it's time for the "best" team to take a backseat for our future imo. Look at how Philly and Portland's young players have responded to getting minutes. How do we accomplish this? We need to move those 4 or significant parts of those 4 along with anyone else necessary to facilitate starting a new team direction.

Thoughts?

I agree with this post 100%. I love danny granger but if he has to be one of the ones to go, so be it. Our team is not constructed to win the way we are now.

tim

Rajah Brown
03-31-2008, 11:51 AM
Speed-

It's worth it to net Rose. Otherwise, no. DG is all we have that anyone
up in the top-2-3 might theoretically want. But even those teams
surely wouldn't part with a top-2 pick for DG. We'd have to cough
up SG + a future 1st and even then, given that SF's like DG can be
had every year in the draft, it likely wouldn't get it done.

Bottom line, we can forget Rose.

Major Cold
03-31-2008, 11:55 AM
I completely agree, but do they have the assets to move up that far. If you can move into the top two, but you have to trade Granger, is that a step forward.

Concept wise I think you are right, but I just don't know if they have the juice to pull it off.


I agree that we need to get a quality PG like Rose. He is showing that he is a guarantee Starter at the minimum. To move up there would have to be a three way deal sending JO to a team and taking poor contracts and sending a prospect to MINN for example. Then we would have to send our pick and a player like Shawne. Depending how good the prospect sent by the third team we might be able to send Foster or Diogu.

Or maybe sending Foster and Daniels to a third team and taking back a poor contract and sending a prospect to a Minn.

Or maybe sending Shawne this years pick and next years 1st pick top 5 protected.

Will Galen
03-31-2008, 11:56 AM
Concept wise I think you are right, but I just don't know if they have the juice to pull it off.


That would depend on who gets the top two picks. For instant if Portland got really lucky, and they have less of a change than we currently would, they would probably deal. Other teams there would be nothing we could offer them.

Another thing we should root for is Dallas making the playoffs. New Jersey has their pick as long as it's not lottery. If NJ has two picks we might me able to get one via trade, but it would be much harder if they have only their own.

Jonathan
03-31-2008, 12:08 PM
The only way we have a top three pick is if the Lottery Balls bounce our way. I have faith; but believe If we did land in the top three Stern would call the New York Knicks as our ball much like the coin toss with Jerome Bettis on Thanksgiving Day.

Anthem
03-31-2008, 03:38 PM
I hope not, but you're probably right. Rose is an awesome PG, and I hold steadfast to the belief that a franchise PG is much harder to come by than another wing player.
I agree with this. But it's not relevant. We're not going to have the chance to choose.

MyFavMartin
03-31-2008, 04:04 PM
Okay. Say we have about the #12 pick.

I'd say my choice would be Westbrook if he's there. Move up a bit to take him if it won't cost too much. He did a fine job for UCLA at the point when Collison was out. He's also great size and perimeter defense.

If he's not, I am really perplexed what to do at 12. I could see a project C like McGee or project combo F/PF in LSU's Randolph, but at this stage my first choice is not a 2-3 year project.

I think Mayo will be gone by #6, so I'm not even thinking about him at #12. If he was, I wouldn't even hesitate.

Someone I like is Douglas-Roberts but #12 is too high. He's a slasher and able to create offense. Consistent outside shooter.

Could see dealing with the Knicks and Bulls to move up or picking up Phoenix's, Portlands, or NJ's lower first round picks in trades.


Dream draft that doesn't involve winning the lottery in regards to players chosen -

PG - Westbrook
SG - Douglas-Roberts
PF - Hendrix (2nd rounder)

2nd round: Lots of players intrigue me that could be available in the 2nd round. At PF, I would love see Hendrix, a high IQ, strong Millsap-type player. Other players that I like would be Courtney Lee, Rush, and Roby.

Naptown_Seth
03-31-2008, 04:37 PM
I hadn't realized how little he was until I saw him playing against all those Memphis guys who all have 19-foot wingspans. DJ looked outclassed out there. Couldn't find anyway to score. Couldn't finish at the rim. Couldn't even really blow by anyone. Tough to judge him on one game, but I didn't see much Big 12 this year so....
It was a great game to demostrate my main knock on him...he forces his own action way too much. Abrams was much better about trying to get others involved whereas DJ just keeps butting his head into the wall.

Collison is the same way, but instead of a sprint drive into trouble or lots of mid jumpers, he just pounds the shot clock down to 6 and then finally realizes something else has to happen. At that point he sometimes bails himself out with a nice layup drive, but often puts it in a teammates hands with no time to do anything.

Now with Augustin you see that the talent around him is more limited. Collison has no excuse with the kind of teammates he has. But both need to grow out of that if they want to stick in the NBA.


Again, I like both players, but this is why they are below Rose and Bayless by a fair margin. That also showed why I still prefer Love if he's on the board at that point.


Rush showed his game perfectly too. He impacts off the ball, he's the go-to defender and after he got up to speed on Curry he did a much better job on him which helped down the stretch. He's very versitile. Despite his shooting slump he found his way in the 2nd.

But he's also prone to being very passive. I suspect he shrinks from big time plays where he's the man. He likes the tension, but not as the focus it seems. He's not a pure anything, he's a handyman SG. Love him at 25 if you can get back in there.


Chalmers is less refined at this point, more prone to silly mistakes. I'd like to see him go another year before coming out. But he's a strong PG that can both score for himself and keeps working his teammates into plays. He does a much better job of involving others than Collison and Augustin. Doesn't yet quite have the full range of handles though.


Curry I mentioned in the Curry thread. I'm impressed.


Arthur has GREAT offensive post footwork. He can spin either way to get the little banker or semi-hook. He's like Harrison except without the bulk game, more speed game. This means that while you could work him for 10 points he's going to make other mistakes that keeps him from having the full impact you'd like.

Still he's clearly a superior prospect to Hibbert at this point, and I'd say Thabeet as well though it depends on what you want from a C.

One promising play by Arthur - Curry was tearing up the court on a transition and Arthur poked the ball away from him from behind for the steal. You have to like that from your big.

Rose is going #1 or #2, nothing else to say there.

Dorsey has Dale Davis/Ben Wallace written all over him. Too bad about his attitude history. It makes him too much of a risk IMO.

Naptown_Seth
03-31-2008, 04:44 PM
Redd - big 12 was strong, nearly pac 10 strong IMO.

But this is not the only bad game DJ has had either, don't let people fool you. I've said many times in this thread that you ASSUME Augustin stops forcing his own offense when he gets to the NBA and has teammates, but you do not know he will (or can).

Travis Best never learned how to do this like a true PG.

There were times vs Memphis that DJ had the chance to involve other guys, times when it was the smart thing to try, but instead he forced things along. Now last I checked that was Mayo's problem. The difference is Mayo is bigger and a much better defender.


Another thing we should root for is Dallas making the playoffs. New Jersey has their pick as long as it's not lottery. If NJ has two picks we might me able to get one via trade, but it would be much harder if they have only their own.
I agree.

Gamble1
03-31-2008, 05:45 PM
Hey Seth what do you think of DeAndre JOrdan? I haven't seen much of him but it seems that he has the frame and potential for the Pacers to consider drafting. For Kevin Love I just think he is maxed out on potential. He looks like a guy that is going to have a hard time translating his game on the pro level just because he is a short slow white guy.

owl
03-31-2008, 05:52 PM
I appreciate your discussion on the various players naptown. I just have the feeling based
on where the Pacers pick and what is available that it will be Love, Thabeet or Westbrook.
I just am not that enamored with Augustin. One other possibilty is McGhee.

JayRedd
03-31-2008, 05:57 PM
Redd - big 12 was strong, nearly pac 10 strong IMO.

But this is not the only bad game DJ has had either, don't let people fool you. I've said many times in this thread that you ASSUME Augustin stops forcing his own offense when he gets to the NBA and has teammates, but you do not know he will (or can).

Yeah...I watched about five Jayhawks games and Beasley a few times but that's it for the Big 12. This season was the least I've ever followed NCAA basketball since I was like 11. I'm always a little biased cause I enjoy the Big East style so much more than the rest of the college ranks, but this year I went from my normal 50% Big East/50% everything else to 70% Big East/30% everything else and that's with a smaller overall pie.

On Augustin...I watched about 10 Texas games last year with Durant and althouh I thought he was pretty skilled, I never really liked him. That combined with the fact that I was a total ball-watcher (no jokes) in every game Durant played and it wasn't exactly the best way to get an accurate look at other guys. I was just assuming Augustin made the leap since I've heard so much about him, but again, I didn't realize he was so small. Maybe cause Durant was so big I just thought he was the an average-looking 6'1" bu next to KD's 18' wingspan. I've also seen nothing to make me think he's a long-term answer at the point. Overall...not impressed.

I'll tell you who I am really impressed by though: CDR. Kid's gonna be a helluva scorer in the pros and he has that weird type of athleticism where he kinda hops around and slouches a little bit so he actually looks a little awkward and not athletic (like Tayshaun sorta) but in fact he almost just floats around out there and is uber-light on his feet like he never touches the ground. He can literally score in about eight different ways. Only question for me is range (his 3 pt % is silky, but I haven't ever seen him step back really) and his strength. Is he Tayshaun skinny but strong? Or Francisco Garcia skinny and get pushed around?

I'd really like to see him on the Pacers.

Kraft
03-31-2008, 06:25 PM
Rush showed his game perfectly too. He impacts off the ball, he's the go-to defender and after he got up to speed on Curry he did a much better job on him which helped down the stretch. He's very versitile. Despite his shooting slump he found his way in the 2nd.

But he's also prone to being very passive. I suspect he shrinks from big time plays where he's the man. He likes the tension, but not as the focus it seems. He's not a pure anything, he's a handyman SG. Love him at 25 if you can get back in there.

I said in another thread that if you can buy Brandon Rush for $3 million at the end of the first round, you do it. With attendance the way it is, I wonder how much more the Simons are willing to go into the red with the Pacers.

My main knock on Rush is what you've mentioned: He just coasts from time to time. When he's on, he's on, and he's a top 20 prospect in my mind.

We'll get to see Arthur vs. Hansbrough in the Final Four, which should prove to be interesting. And the guard matchups for Collison, Westbrook, Douglas-Roberts and Rose make for a good weekend.

Rajah Brown
03-31-2008, 07:11 PM
I'm not sure Rush really has a true, NBA position. He can obviously
play SG and would probably defend it pretty well, but his shot is
way too inconsistent to be anything other than average offensively.
Or, he could play SF where he'd be a bit small and struggle with
some guys on the defensive end.

d_c
03-31-2008, 08:10 PM
Just been announced: Both the Lopez sisters are declaring for the draft.

mrknowname
03-31-2008, 08:12 PM
Just been announced: Both the Lopez sisters are declaring for the draft.


i'll take both

Young
03-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Just been announced: Both the Lopez sisters are declaring for the draft.

I think it's great for the Pacers.

Even if neither are picked by the Pacers, it adds big men depth to this draft. So it increases the chances of the Pacers getting a big they want, if they want one, IMO.

Infinite MAN_force
03-31-2008, 09:58 PM
There are a lot of interesting center prospects in this draft. Given our needs, I really hope we pick one up somehow, but I think it should definatly be a defense oriented type of Center with good shot blocking ability.

Does anyone think Robin Lopez will be a good pro? How about that Javale Mcgee guy... I have heard there are possible work ethic issues with deandre jordan, which tells me to steer clear. I still like thabeet quite a bit, Im really enamored with the shot-blocking and 70% FT percentage.

Anyone who has watched any of these guys want to write up a nice little synopsis/ comparisons for me? Some of these doubts about Augistin are making me think we need to go big in this draft, if we wont be able to get a starter calibar PG.

Naptown_Seth
03-31-2008, 11:15 PM
I can see why people like the potential in Jordan, but to me it's wide open and could go either way. He could really be a bust.

We had Jordan face Love straight up. He lost...badly. When a guy with his size isn't outplaying Love, at least scoring on him, then you have a concern. Love is a smart defender, but he's not a stopper. He simply minimizes his risks and fouls and let's the offensive player create his own miss rather than handing him the rim on a gamble or putting him on the line with a bailout.

Yet that was enough to shut down Jordan. That's where I like Arthur more, he's got some really nice post scoring moves.


It's odd that Robin is not more like Brook, but he's not. He could turn into a scrappy PF, but I'm surprised he's coming out. I think he could stand to play a year without his brother's shadow.


We'll get to see Arthur vs. Hansbrough in the Final Four, which should prove to be interesting. And the guard matchups for Collison, Westbrook, Douglas-Roberts and Rose make for a good weekend.It's great isn't it. Normally so many of these guys are wide open and you've only seen them running a demo against guys headed nowhere. When you see Augustin-Rose you know that's a future NBA matchup and you can see that if you're the team with DJ you probably are bummed in those games.

I think CDR-Westbrook is a stalemate, both like to impact games off the ball and get their scoring in scraps. Collison is quick enough to leave Rose but Rose will remove his jumper and will be able to go inside on him at will.

The main challenge we get to see for Rose is can he protect his dribble from Collison. Collison pilfers at an NBA level, though he is a gambler (ala Armstrong).


Rush and Weaver are both guys with the ability to impact the SG spot but with enough holes in their games to become nothing. Still, seeing Cook tonight reminded me of what guys like Rush or Lee could be in the NBA.

I mean I think most of us talking about getting back in aren't talking about trading Danny for a 14 pick. The only reason JO gets used for a pick is because you are also getting the contract put into a better position (multiple players, expiring sooner, etc).

This draft won't fix the team. But with some care it should certainly improve the overall product next year as we wait out the now unavoidable rebuilding struggles.


Redd - you should have seen OK just for Griffin. Pretty damn smooth with the ball for a guy his size. He's not Beasley but he is interesting.

Rajah Brown
04-01-2008, 10:34 AM
We discussed him briefly below, but don't sleep on Blake Griffin. If
he comes out and his wheels are good to go, he may be the way
to go. Personally, given his combo of explosive athleticism,
competitive attitude and upside, I'd probably take him over
Love.

Infinite MAN_force
04-01-2008, 12:07 PM
I was under the impression griffen wouldn't fall below the top 6 or 7, which kind of puts him out of our range.

Ballerzfan
04-01-2008, 12:10 PM
Javale McGee

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qJilDqw8JOY

Good movement, hands, touch for a big man, but what kind of competition has he faced so far and how's his REAL defense? Anyone caught any of his games this year that can shed some light on him?

Naptown_Seth
04-01-2008, 01:51 PM
Yeah, Griffin past 10 seems very unlikely. Of course declarations impact these mocks quite a bit.

Jonathan
04-01-2008, 04:26 PM
I really like Tyler Hansborough and think we should take a good look at him if we end up drafting 15. I like his hustle & heart. I know we have Jeff Foster but we also had Dale & Antonio.

Major Cold
04-01-2008, 05:22 PM
My thoughts on Love is that he might not be a franchise player, but I really do not think he will be anywhere near a bust. At worst he will be the top big man off of a playoff team roster. He might not be the type of player that scores ten straight buckets to lift your team out of a funk, but he will he will not be the type of player that will turnover the ball.

The negatives for Love are far less detrimental to a team than most of the young bigs in the draft.

Hans will have to bulk up to impress me. If he continues to shoot like he did vs. UL then I would consider it. He has a killer instinct that you can't teach. But I do not want to put to much stock in him just yet.

I want to see how he handles the Jayhawks defense first.

Young
04-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Here is my concern about Love.

Actually first let me say I don't believe he comes out this early, but that's JMO.

Anyway my concern or wonder is his defense. What i'm wondering is how much, if any, playing for UCLA covers up and defensive weaknesses he has? I mean playing with Westbrook, Collison, Mbah a Moute, and Shipp. UCLA is the best defensive team in the country. How much of his defense success is him and how much is playing on UCLA? I really have no idea.

Major Cold
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
Love plays Foster style defense not Mutumbo style. So if you don't have strong perimeter defenders then the big mans weakside help is a sliding hands in the air and pick up fouls.

That is my concern with this team in particular. We need a shot blocker and if JO is leaving then I don't know who will fill that void. And if someone says Thabeet I will shoot myself.

Anthem
04-02-2008, 10:26 AM
We need a shot blocker and if JO is leaving then I don't know who will fill that void. And if someone says Thabeet I will shoot myself.
JO's not leaving.

PacerGuy
04-02-2008, 11:02 AM
The more I look, the more I see us going BIG.
Unless Bird is 110% sold on Augustine, the immediate need for us is a big. Harrison is most likely gone, Foster is a FA n/y, JO is on the block & has the injury history, Murph is not a true "big" by his style of play. We have no interior presence. I think the bigs are in 3 catagories though:
More "Ready": (Griffin/ Love/ Hibbert)
More "Projects": (Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet).
I am likely in the minority in that I still have faith in Hibbert over some of these "Bender-type" projects. His size & the was he plays the 5 like a 5 is something I thing many of the "projects" lack. I think I would rather have a Hibbert over a DJ or a Collison at this point. Tinsley, like it or not, is still signed for till 2011, & while I know he only plays 50% of the games, we are better set to cope w/ his loss over a "big", or two, or three.
Lets just hope we land the #1 & get Rose, or maybe EG slips to us.

PacerGuy
04-02-2008, 11:06 AM
JO's not leaving.

I think (hope) your right - atleast till after n/y when his expiring contract value will peak. I would rather concentrate on moving Tin's & maybe packaging Daniels (w/Ike?) ti get another pick/ player,

Major Cold
04-02-2008, 11:09 AM
I really hope not for the sake of our defense.

I really want JO apart of this team, but not for the price.

Jonathan
04-02-2008, 04:04 PM
My thoughts on Love is that he might not be a franchise player, but I really do not think he will be anywhere near a bust. At worst he will be the top big man off of a playoff team roster. He might not be the type of player that scores ten straight buckets to lift your team out of a funk, but he will he will not be the type of player that will turnover the ball.

The negatives for Love are far less detrimental to a team than most of the young bigs in the draft.

Hans will have to bulk up to impress me. If he continues to shoot like he did vs. UL then I would consider it. He has a killer instinct that you can't teach. But I do not want to put to much stock in him just yet.

I want to see how he handles the Jayhawks defense first.

Hansborough; he will never be an allstar, but is a high energy, good quality guy that will give max effort. Love is very similar, but has a better all around game ie outlet pass, court awareness, outside jump shot. Love will probably be a top ten pick. It will be interesting to see who is a better pro Hansborough or R Lopez?
I feel we need a guard that can play defense and also score the ball that is why Courtney Lee or Lester Hudson come to mind. I would not mind trading down this draft and acquiring a first round pick this year and a second round at a later date. Several teams have multiple picks and if we do draft 13-15 why not?

Gamble1
04-02-2008, 04:13 PM
The more I look, the more I see us going BIG.
Unless Bird is 110% sold on Augustine, the immediate need for us is a big. Harrison is most likely gone, Foster is a FA n/y, JO is on the block & has the injury history, Murph is not a true "big" by his style of play. We have no interior presence. I think the bigs are in 3 catagories though:
More "Ready": (Griffin/ Love/ Hibbert)
More "Projects": (Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet).
I am likely in the minority in that I still have faith in Hibbert over some of these "Bender-type" projects. His size & the was he plays the 5 like a 5 is something I thing many of the "projects" lack. I think I would rather have a Hibbert over a DJ or a Collison at this point. Tinsley, like it or not, is still signed for till 2011, & while I know he only plays 50% of the games, we are better set to cope w/ his loss over a "big", or two, or three.
Lets just hope we land the #1 & get Rose, or maybe EG slips to us.


I would say that McGee has more projected talent than so Jordan or Thabeet. All of them are raw but Love is a NBA ready guy offensively and personally I would take him above other pf's. At the center postion I could see us taking McGee alittle earlier than he should. The guy is a straight freak though he should be a carny not the NBA player.

Gamble1
04-02-2008, 04:21 PM
Hansborough; he will never be an allstar, but is a high energy, good quality guy that will give max effort. Love is very similar, but has a better all around game ie outlet pass, court awareness, outside jump shot. Love will probably be a top ten pick. It will be interesting to see who is a better pro Hansborough or R Lopez?
I feel we need a guard that can play defense and also score the ball that is why Courtney Lee or Lester Hudson come to mind. I would not mind trading down this draft and acquiring a first round pick this year and a second round at a later date. Several teams have multiple picks and if we do draft 13-15 why not?

I am actually suprise that Hans is going so low but that should tell you that heart doesn't get you drafted. He could be an impact player but the way he postions on the block is not going to get it done in the NBA. The thing that saves Hans is his understanding of angles on the glass. He goes up strong on a defender sort of like Carl Landry does.

esabyrn333
04-02-2008, 04:36 PM
I would say that McGee has more projected talent than so Jordan or Thabeet. All of them are raw but Love is a NBA ready guy offensively and personally I would take him above other pf's. At the center postion I could see us taking McGee alittle earlier than he should. The guy is a straight freak though he should be a carny not the NBA player.

I am intrested in McGee but his listed weakness scare me alot reminds me of one David Harrison :eek:

Weaknesses: Still must gain maturity. He gets frustrated far too easily and loses his composure quickly when calls go against him, or when he's struggling ... Still growing into his body and game, learning what he's capable of and steadily becoming a factor night in and night out ... Needs to develop some go to moves. A reliable jump hook would make him an absolute force ... Must improve from the free throw line (50% wont cut it). He has solid shooting touch and should be able to raise his FT shooting to at least 70-75 percent over time if he develops a consistent routine and works at it ... Should be wary of leaving school early. It's likely he would be a first rounder this year, but a third year in college would really help him in the long run as he would be much better prepared for the NBA and not run the risk of losing confidence and falling short of his full potential ...

Anthem
04-02-2008, 05:09 PM
I think (hope) your right - atleast till after n/y when his expiring contract value will peak. I would rather concentrate on moving Tin's & maybe packaging Daniels (w/Ike?) ti get another pick/ player,

If we could move Quis/Ike/Tins for a starting point guard, I'd be in heaven. I don't see how, though.

Rajah Brown
04-03-2008, 07:31 AM
Well, Jeff Capel got his extension at OU. So Griffin is probably
sticking around another year.

Justin Tyme
04-03-2008, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE=Jonathan;687099]

I feel we need a guard that can play defense and also score the ball that is why Courtney Lee QUOTE]

Totally agree that the Pacers need a guard that can play defense!! They have been missing it for 2 straight years. I'm tired of opposing guards killing us night after night. Courtney Lee might be a player who could get it done.

Jonathan
04-03-2008, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=Jonathan;687099]

I feel we need a guard that can play defense and also score the ball that is why Courtney Lee QUOTE]

Totally agree that the Pacers need a guard that can play defense!! They have been missing it for 2 straight years. I'm tired of opposing guards killing us night after night. Courtney Lee might be a player who could get it done.

Dunleavy & Tinsley are liabilties on defense that is why I would not mind drafting a guard that can play defense and hit open shots. He should have no problem not being the focal point on offense either. A nice role player that knows his role.

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 11:16 AM
I am intrested in McGee but his listed weakness scare me alot reminds me of one David Harrison :eek:

Weaknesses: Still must gain maturity. He gets frustrated far too easily and loses his composure quickly when calls go against him, or when he's struggling ... Still growing into his body and game, learning what he's capable of and steadily becoming a factor night in and night out ... Needs to develop some go to moves. A reliable jump hook would make him an absolute force ... Must improve from the free throw line (50% wont cut it). He has solid shooting touch and should be able to raise his FT shooting to at least 70-75 percent over time if he develops a consistent routine and works at it ... Should be wary of leaving school early. It's likely he would be a first rounder this year, but a third year in college would really help him in the long run as he would be much better prepared for the NBA and not run the risk of losing confidence and falling short of his full potential ...

I understand that Harrison not only had problems on the court but also off the court. This is where our scouts have got to get the guy with limited off the court issues. Losing your head in a game to me is easy when you care about the outcome. So I guess I give a guy a pass on that.

Jonathan
04-03-2008, 11:43 AM
I understand that Harrison not only had problems on the court but also off the court. This is where our scouts have got to get the guy with limited off the court issues. Losing your head in a game to me is easy when you care about the outcome. So I guess I give a guy a pass on that.
I disagree you need to have cool head on the court.
I remember watching Dr J play as youngster for the Sixers one time a small skirmish broke out and Dr J went and sat down right by his team's bench w/ his legs cross. I first thought he was wuss for not fighting. Later on, I realized this he helped his team by being on the court. Remember back to when the Pacers vs Pistons series was very close and Ronnie Artest foulded/hit RIP Hamilton late in the game. The Pistons went on to win the series.

esabyrn333
04-03-2008, 11:58 AM
I understand that Harrison not only had problems on the court but also off the court. This is where our scouts have got to get the guy with limited off the court issues. Losing your head in a game to me is easy when you care about the outcome. So I guess I give a guy a pass on that.


I don't remember any off the court issues with Harrison I know money has never been an issue being he comes from a very wealthy family. I will google it and see what I find out...

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 11:59 AM
The difference is the maturity of the player right. We draft kids in and hope that they become men. My line of thinking is that the kids with real issues have them all the time off the court. The ones that just need to mature on the court can be coached. David H had issues off the court. Jax had issues off the court but if this 19 year old kid shows unbridled passion on the court than I think he can be coached and trained. If he shows that he makes questionable life decisions then I refrain from drafting him. Hopefully you get my point.

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 12:02 PM
hmmmm how about smoking weed? Does that count. I know its taboo but its a poor decision that is off the court.

Infinite MAN_force
04-03-2008, 01:28 PM
Im starting to wonder about westbrook again. This team needs a jolt of athleticism and if we pick around 11th we might look into him. People say he is not a "true" PG but he still gets a fair amount of assists playing the position... and he is an elite level athelete and defender. Something we desperatly need.

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Westbrook sounds like a slightly better version of fred jones to me.

I think the franchise wants W's in the near future and for me the obivious person that we could draft would be love to meet that need. He doesn't have the highest ceiling but he has the highest NBA iq of them all.

d_c
04-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Westbrook sounds like a slightly better version of fred jones to me.

I think the franchise wants W's in the near future and for me the obivious person that we could draft would be love to meet that need. He doesn't have the highest ceiling but he has the highest NBA iq of them all.

The way it's looking right now, Love may have played his way out of the Pacers' range. He's simply displayed too much ability for him to slide out of the top 8.

Assuming he measure at least 6'8" w/o shoes, he's going top 8. He'll probably get a few guarantees from teams picking very high and as a result he won't work out for very many teams.

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 02:56 PM
Unfortunately you might be right. The only other factor I could see that would benifit us is whether UCLA loses to Memphis.

Of course that only does so much but you never know....

d_c
04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
Unfortunately you might be right. The only other factor I could see that would benifit us is whether UCLA loses to Memphis.

Of course that only does so much but you never know....

Teams in the tournamount winning and losing games isn't what's really important. Scouts don't really care who's team wins or loses. I suppose it's important in that a player on a winning team can continue displaying his abilities if his team keeps playing, but that about it.

But Love has already played 4 games and is going to play a 5th. The only thing important is that he's shown a lot of ability that can probably translate to the NBA level. He's shown better defense and rebounding than people previously thought he had. Bottom line is he can do a lot of good things and more and more NBA people are being convinced that he can do them at the next level.

Kofi
04-03-2008, 03:30 PM
I would probably cry if we drafted Kevin Love.

Strike 1 - Overweight

Strike 2 - Undersized

Strike 3 - Unathletic

That's 3 strikes, Love is out.

I'd much rather take Russell Westbrook, who's size and skillset are closer to Dwyane Wade than Fred Jones.

d_c
04-03-2008, 03:32 PM
I would probably cry if we drafted Kevin Love.


Love isn't going to be around when the Pacers pick, so relax and find some other player to hate on.

Kofi
04-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Love isn't going to be around when the Pacers pick, so relax and find some other player to hate on.

Sorry sir, I didn't realize you had a working crystal ball.

It wouldn't surprise me if he went top-8, but then again, considered his apparent physical short-comings, it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't, either.

rexnom
04-03-2008, 03:44 PM
One can only hope that NBA GMs will think like Kofi and let Love slip through their fingers. My only hesitation with Love comes in terms of how he fits in with our team. Is he a PF of the future or a C? What happens with Ike and Shawne in that scenario?

If we draft someone like Westbrook, the nice thing is that you can see a line-up of Westbrook-Danny-Shawne working nicely.

If they draft Augustin, you could potentially expand that to DJ-Danny-Mike-Shawne.

I'm a little sad that Donnie's in NY because now I know that we won't be able to get that draft pick of theirs (through a JO for Marbury switch, for example).

DGPR
04-03-2008, 04:00 PM
Russell Westbrook might not be a true point guard, but neither was Gilbert Arenas. I'm not comparing them either.

Kofi
04-03-2008, 04:29 PM
A couple of pre-2003 Draft analysis' on Dwyane Wade.....

http://www.nbadraft.net/draftbuzz003.htm


Dwyane Wade has been superman for two seasons. He carried Marquette to unimaginable heights (the Final Four) during in his two seasons there. His game doesn't translate as well to the NBA game due to his height, and it will likely cost him some.

Although he is both a great passer and ball handler, he is even less of a point guard than Gilbert Arenas and would probably have a difficult transition to the position. Playing point in spots would work, but as a full time PG, seems too optimistic.

One thing he isn't is Joseph Forte. His athletic gifts are far superior to Forte, and although he doesn't have quite the explosiveness of last year's undersized SG, and 13th pick, Fred Jones, expect him to have a much better NBA career. Right now, his draft range is somewhere between 7 and 15 depending how he works out.


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/archive/index.php/t-56562.html


3. Dwyane Wade, Marquette
The line: 6-4, 210, Junior
The skinny: Wade's game evokes comparisons to Desmond Mason, Fred Jones and even Jerry Stackhouse from scouts. It's not hard to see why when you look at his combination of a strong frame, leaping ability and defensive presence. He's one of the most complete athletes in college hoops. So what's the issue? He's picked up the dreaded "combo guard" label. He's too small to be a two guard in the NBA, but lacks the instincts to be top-notch point guard. While scouts are usually terrified of undersized two guards, Wade may be the exception. He has long arms and a pretty good handle. He never plays out of control, leading some to wonder if he could be turned into a point guard. After seeing how Gilbert Arenas proved everyone wrong, teams are more willing to take a chance on a talent like Wade. Expect him to be in the lottery when the smoke clears on draft night.

I also vividly recall an article that claimed Wade was a less talented version of Fred Jones, but I couldn't find it via Google.

Anthem
04-03-2008, 04:33 PM
The way it's looking right now, Love may have played his way out of the Pacers' range. He's simply displayed too much ability for him to slide out of the top 8.
Who drops?

Anthem
04-03-2008, 04:34 PM
Sorry sir, I didn't realize you had a working crystal ball.
:rotflmao: That's awesome.

Of everybody in the universe to use that line, irony mandates that it must be you.

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 04:50 PM
Teams in the tournamount winning and losing games isn't what's really important. Scouts don't really care who's team wins or loses. I suppose it's important in that a player on a winning team can continue displaying his abilities if his team keeps playing, but that about it.

But Love has already played 4 games and is going to play a 5th. The only thing important is that he's shown a lot of ability that can probably translate to the NBA level. He's shown better defense and rebounding than people previously thought he had. Bottom line is he can do a lot of good things and more and more NBA people are being convinced that he can do them at the next level.

I understand your point. The only thing he can't do is improve on his impression if he doesn't stay in the tourny. The really big thing Love has going for him is his bball IQ. He physically isn't going to improve but say his last game he blows a win and shows that he really isn't that mature. All that could do is help.

I am really cautious of westbrook. Its really hard to judge a guy that doesn't play first string alot. He might be crazy good but who knows. The only thing that I trully like about him is that people say he is coachable and motivated. That matters more to me than almost anything.

AesopRockOn
04-03-2008, 05:07 PM
http://blogs.herald.com/miami_heat/2008/04/d-wade-and-heat.html

I'm guessing Wade wants Rose although I guess he could be talking about Love too.


http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/51745/20080403/previewing_the_draft_at_the_final_four/

If you haven't been following this stuff much, check this realgm piece summarizing the final four for NBA fans.

d_c
04-03-2008, 05:08 PM
I understand your point. The only thing he can't do is improve on his impression if he doesn't stay in the tourny. The really big thing Love has going for him is his bball IQ. He physically isn't going to improve but say his last game he blows a win and shows that he really isn't that mature. All that could do is help.

I am really cautious of westbrook. Its really hard to judge a guy that doesn't play first string alot. He might be crazy good but who knows. The only thing that I trully like about him is that people say he is coachable and motivated. That matters more to me than almost anything.

What's he going to do? Blow a game like Chris Webber did? That didn't keep him from going #1 overall. I think scouts pretty much have a good impression of what they think of Love and another 1 or 2 games isn't going to change it.

The Pacers will get a good player. Either Love or Westbrook would improve their talent level.

A guy like Augustin would help too. He'd immediately improve your PG play and Pacer fans would be happy with it because of the poor play at that position the past few years, but once people understand what his ceiling and limitations are, they'll be right back to NBADraft.net again looking for the next Derrick Rose.

People don't really notice it for some reason, but these true PG prospects are every bit as much of a crapshoot as 7 foot bigmen. Acie Law was the 2nd best PG prospect in the country last year. He was getting pimped left and right. On this board there were people saying "Boy I'm gonna be pissed if that pick we gave to Atlanta turns out to be Law." This year Law couldn't get playing time for a team that was in desperation for a PG.

You'll get your Pauls, Deron Williams and Barons every now and then that are pretty much surefire prospects, but otherwise you're sifting through the Ridnours and Acie Laws of the world.

JayRedd
04-03-2008, 05:15 PM
Dwyane Wade has been superman for two seasons. He carried Marquette to unimaginable heights (the Final Four) during in his two seasons there.

Somehow I'm having trouble thinking that sounds just like a guy who's the third best player on his team and averaging 12.5 ppg.

rexnom
04-03-2008, 05:17 PM
So...with a guy like Westbrook, do we hope that he somehow contains Rose in the final four or that he gets lit up (and his stock drops)?

Gamble1
04-03-2008, 05:39 PM
D c I think everyone is not above being influeced by a game or two. You might think scouts are above that but I don't.

Kofi
04-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Somehow I'm having trouble thinking that sounds just like a guy who's the third best player on his team and averaging 12.5 ppg.

I don't think anyone here expects Westbrook to be Wade. Monta Ellis, probably. Dwyane Wade? Not likely.

A point you made yourself, Westbrook plays with NBA caliber teammates, so of course he wont have the padded stats that Wade had playing at third-rate Marquette in big ol' Conference USA. And yes he lead his team to the Final 4, which was impressive, but let's not overlook how weak that years NCAA talent level was. I'd argue there are no less than 5 teams that are better than that years national championship Syracuse team. Impressive, but really no more impressive than what Stephen Curry did this year.

You have to learn to look above and beyond the stats. Westbrook is considered the best NBA prospect on UCLA for a reason. His physical gifts, combined with his skills and work ethic are the makings of something special.

JayRedd
04-03-2008, 06:09 PM
I hear ya, Kofi.

It's just one of my jobs here at PD to make sure people know how good DWade is now -- and was at Marquette.

And don't forget about Ball Boy.

Infinite MAN_force
04-03-2008, 07:38 PM
Im sorry but I think taking Love will be a huge blunder... what is he gonna give us that Troy Murphy is not giving us right now? Better passing, maybe. but this team is full of fundamentally sound slow white dudes, That is not a team need.

I guess if you are thinking we are in a full on rebuild lets not worry about anything but whats gonna happen til 5 years from now kind of deal, sure take Love... but I guess I just lean toward fixing our current host of problems. I also don't see Love having much upside really, he is fairly limited physically and IQ will only take you so far on this level. If he had better size I would be more open too it.

The last thing we should ever draft are more players who will be a defensive liabilities...

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2008, 04:26 AM
Here's a RECENT (ie, not Nov or something, this is early March) snippit from a report on Westbrook by Draft Express.


Offensively, Westbrook’s biggest source of production (nearly 30% of his offense) curiously comes in transition. He plays a fairly small role in UCLA’s half-court offense (only 8% of his offense comes from either pick and roll or isolation plays) , mostly as a complimentary piece—moving off the ball trying to find holes in the defense to get to the rim with his tremendous strength and leaping ability, or shooting wide open jumpers. It’s pretty clear when breaking down his footage that he lacks quite a bit of polish on this end of the floor, even if he is extremely effective at the few things he does well. Wow, how odd that they see the exact same things that several of us have been saying about his game and his role with UCLA (not a PG that is).

Again, just like Fred Jones, he's is certainly capable of bringing the ball up and getting a basic offense started. That's started, NOT created. For himself he can create, for others he doesn't. He's a smallish SG with great hops, decent but not great handles, and no sign of a deep ball.

I will maybe give you Ellis, though he's not as fast as him and again less of a PG.

Collison I would say is still higher rated even in terms of NBA athlete. Size no, but he is ready to handle NBA pressure on his dribble and is already at the Daryl Armstrong level of talent.

And while Love doesn't blow people away as a physical player this is just like the freaking combine that says guys will be great...as long as no actual basketball craft is asked of them. Smarts is a skill that scouts look at, just like clutch. For all the hops in the world it's worthless if you choke it up like the Pacers did vs Boston the other day.


so of course he wont have the padded stats that Wade had More scoring options means more options for assists, yet like Collison he fails to make halfcourt plays for assists on a regular basis.

PPG might be limited on a true team, but other numbers can be raised simply because you are free to do what you need to and have help along the way. You can lock a guy down if you don't have to double off all the time. You can get a board if you have guys that can actually block out. And you can get transition assists if a guy like Shipp is breaking out on a rebound.



Westbrook does play first string. He's their starting SF with Shipp at SG and Collison at PG. This is all season, not just lately.


And I'm not even worried about this. Love is above the Pacers at this point, they won't get him at 10-11. Augustin might be gone too.

They will take Collison. He will be decent but will too often go Best clock-killing-dribble on us. You just hope he's learns his way out of this habit.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2008, 04:38 AM
I also vividly recall an article that claimed Wade was a less talented version of Fred Jones, but I couldn't find it via Google.
I vividly recall Wade being drafted just a tad higher than Fred Jones, no need for Google. So the NBA SCOUTS gave you their opinion, Wade was considered better than Jones. Actually picking the guy is action, and actions speak louder than words.

When Westbrook is taken 5th like he's Wade, and Love goes 20th like a fat loser, then the NBA scouts will have agreed with you.


Also, from Draft Express, is this bit on "athletes" and the combine that measures that ability...

In 2004, we found a similar story. Kirk Snyder came out as the top overall athlete, while players like Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng and Al Jeffersonís draft stock supposedly took a hit by measuring out as relatively poor athletes. That same Andre Iguodala who was robbed of the slam dunk championship a few months ago, only recorded a 34 inch vertical leap, one inch more than J.J. Redick this year. Rickey Paulding, Timmy Bowers and Luis Flores were all declared amongst the top 10 athletes in the draft. One struggled to average double figures this past season in France, one starred in the Israeli league, and another is currently playing in the Dominican Republic.

The 2005 draft combine was equally as pointless. Monta Ellis ranked as the worst athlete of all the players measured, coming out slow, weak and with very little leaping ability. Once the NBA season started and the ball actually rolled out on the court, though, he magically transformed into a spectacular athlete who can get his shot at will and dunks anything and everything that is remotely close to the basket, despite only being 6-3. Eventual rookie of the year Chris Paul was declared only the 15th best athlete amongst the players tested, and was somehow deemed slower than Deron Williams, Sean May and Wayne Simien. The athletic tests also led you to believe that Andrew Bogut was some kind of stiff who would never be able to keep up with the speed of the NBA--that is, until the players actually started playing basketball and we found out that he is actually a fine athlete for a player his size.
Bogut 14-9.5 at 50% FG this year, 1.7 blocks.

For all his slow fatness, Love seems to be keeping up with the spry young kids just fine. He's no Beasley, but no one is claiming he is. The claim is that Love uses a smart game to succeed. Why would that go away at the next level?

Frankly athletic players without smarts are the ones most likely to flop.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2008, 04:46 AM
Weaknesses: Still must gain maturity. He gets frustrated far too easily and loses his composure quickly when calls go against him, or when he's struggling ... And to repeat, this also describes Bill Walker. He's Jackson, top to bottom, for better and worse. Dude looks set to make it, I don't doubt his game at all, but I just couldn't trust him in the Indy situation. Too bad because he does a lot of nice things on the court.


Who drops?the Pacers do, probably 11th, maybe 10th. To me Express has the closest mock I've seen, and they put Love out at 8 to Charlotte.

Beas, Rose, Bayless
Lopez, Mayo, Gallinari
Gordon, Love, Jordan
Augustin, Randolph, Collison

I didn't watch LSU so I have no opinion on Randolph. They have Indy at 9 and taking Jordan but I don't see it with Collison/Augustin on the board. Of course they may just be slotting by that point rather than truly mocking.



Well, Jeff Capel got his extension at OU. So Griffin is probably
sticking around another year.Let next year's tanking begin. ;) :D



JO's not leaving.
It's starting to feel this way for sure. I love the guy personally so I don't mind, but that salary and this team's situation sure make moving him seem tempting.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2008, 04:56 AM
People don't really notice it for some reason, but these true PG prospects are every bit as much of a crapshoot as 7 foot bigmen. Acie Law was the 2nd best PG prospect in the country last year. He was getting pimped left and right. On this board there were people saying "Boy I'm gonna be pissed if that pick we gave to Atlanta turns out to be Law." This year Law couldn't get playing time for a team that was in desperation for a PG.
For the record I was not saying this. I was saying that with the pick unprotected this year down to 9-10, I'd rather give it up last year when the options were Conley and Law vs this year when a slew of more talented PG prospects were coming out. Of course this is back when Gordon appeared headed to PG stardom.

Still here we are facing a possible 9-10 pick. Imagine if they tanked into keeping the pick last year and it cost them the #9 this year. No way I take Law over Augustin/Collison and I didn't last year either.

Trading the pick was dumb, but if you had to give it up then last year was the time to do it.

Will Galen
04-04-2008, 06:21 AM
Trading the pick was dumb, but if you had to give it up then last year was the time to do it.

I agree with that. I think that was the dumbest move that the Pacers have done. They not only gave up the pick but a $7m exception. The Artest trade was a forced one. The Golden State trade is at worst a sideways move.

You spoke of the Pacers choking against Boston, the same could be said of the Warriors against Dallas. Jackson went 1-11, and Harrington went 1-9. I don't really think Jackson and Harrington choked though, they just played their normal game. I tend to agree the Pacers did some choking though. That's why they really need to make the playoffs, so they can get over their nerves before they are a contender.

Back on topic you keep writing 9-10 as the Pacers probable draft position, but I see it more likely as 11-12.

Actually the way our luck goes I see us having the worst lottery position of anyone in the east, that's not in the playoffs. And if we would happen to get lucky and move up in the draft, I would bet money we would have the third pick. In other words the worst possible good luck.

Who do you see right now as the top picks 1 though 14? No, make that players instead of picks. Picks depend on who's picking and who's in the draft.

Here's some interesting excerpts from Chad Ford's chat yesterday; http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=19994

Mookie (Evansville, IN): What do you see the Pacers doing this summer? Will they keep O'Neal? His stock isnt too high right now. Draft a point guard? Trade Tinsley for a box of Cheerios and a dinner for two with Mickey Mouse?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: All of the above. Jermaine is playing right now to prove to teams that he can still play. He's 29 and still an important presence on the defensive end. I think they'll move Tinsley for just about anything ... and if they're drafting in the 10 spot ... I think Texas' DJ Augustin or UCLA's Russell Westbrook would be very good choices.

Andy (Denver): Historically speaking in terms of marquee talent and depth, how strong of a draft will this be?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Good ... but not great. After Beasley and Rose ... you have a string of good prospects from about 3 to 8, then some promising but flawed ones from 9 to 15. After that, the difference between 16 and 35 isn't huge.

Paul (Redmond, WA) Age 16: Chad, after watching Rose tear up Augustin, how is he not rated higher than Beasley? It also seems like teams aren't taking the "character" issues seriously for Beasley. Sometimes it seems like Beasley just dozes off into another world.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: They are taking the character issues seriously and ... after the way Rose played last weekend, he's moving into the No. 1 conversation again. I think, all along, a few teams like New York and Indiana would've leaned toward Rose anyway. A few more may follow ... especially if he's great this weekend at the Final 4. He's a very unique player and ... in my mind ... the best NBA prospect in college basketball.

My EDIT; I agree, I think Rose will soon be included in the Paul-Williams, who's the best point guard debate.

Ballerzfan
04-04-2008, 08:16 AM
The more I think about the "future" of the Pacers, the more I think we need to "mortgage the farm" (yeah, it's a hoosier phrase...lol) to make whatever necessary deal we can to get Rose. No matter who's the GM, Coach or complementary players on our roster (or any other team for that matter) PG play is CRITICAL to success. Which teams have made the biggest moves in recent times? N.O. got CP3, Jazz got Deron, Nash in Phx the past couple years, Calderon in Toronto has greatly improved their team ability to win any game on any given night, Atlanta is seeing immediate dividends with Bibby, and Billups in Detroit is a veteran, calming influence in their deliberate offense. Yes, Tinman when healthy (is that an oxymoron???) is in that group. But he's not the answer with the unpredictability of his injury status.

So SF's are literally a dime a dozen. Easiest position to pick up players thru trade, draft or just looking deeper on your current roster. Serviceable 4's and 5's that put up respectable rebounds, 10 pts and decent D are available each year thru free agency. You can rent a SG for a couple years as they'll gravitate to a team where they know the PG will get them the ball in their comfort zone. But do we keep limping along without a fulltime dependable floor general in the hopes that Tinman will be healthy or that we can sneak a Diener type led team into the playoff finals hunt? A resounding No is the only correct answer.

I'm not saying we should give up JO, DG, SW, Jf and anything else requested in the way of future #1's and cash. But I think we'd be seriously remiss in not taking a long, HARD look at whoever ends up with the #'s 1 and 2 picks and not making EVERY effort to secure that Rose ends up with the Pacers.

If the Pacers are really going to "rebuild" and not just put another band-aid on our spurting artery, then we have to start the process with a legitimate franchise PG.

(all this was done with the help of coffee and chocolate covered espresso beans, so excuse me if any of it rambles...lol)

Anthem
04-04-2008, 08:39 AM
The more I think about the "future" of the Pacers, the more I think we need to "mortgage the farm" (yeah, it's a hoosier phrase...lol) to make whatever necessary deal we can to get Rose.
I stopped reading right here. Whoever gets that pick isn't trading it.

Anthem
04-04-2008, 08:40 AM
It's starting to feel this way for sure. I love the guy personally so I don't mind, but that salary and this team's situation sure make moving him seem tempting.
Absolutely. But I simply don't think a deal can be made.

DGPR
04-04-2008, 09:06 AM
http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: All of the above. Jermaine is playing right now to prove to teams that he can still play. He's 29 and still an important presence on the defensive end. I think they'll move Tinsley for just about anything ... and if they're drafting in the 10 spot ... I think Texas' DJ Augustin or UCLA's Russell Westbrook would be very good choices.


Do you think Ford reads on this board very much? :D

Rajah Brown
04-04-2008, 09:14 AM
Ballerzfan-

I totally agree. But the list of teams trying like heck to move up
for Rose will be a long one. I doubt any of them will get a deal
done.

As you said, having an elite PG is huge. In today's NBA, it might
be the biggest key to success.

Major Cold
04-04-2008, 12:55 PM
Ballerzfan-

I totally agree. But the list of teams trying like heck to move up
for Rose will be a long one. I doubt any of them will get a deal
done.

As you said, having an elite PG is huge. In today's NBA, it might
be the biggest key to success.

In Deron and Paul's rookie season they were the difference makers. They turned their teams into a playoff team in their rookie year.....Wait no they didn't...

No matter what we as Pacer fans should expect a few more lackluster years before things get better.

Will Galen
04-04-2008, 01:37 PM
I stopped reading right here. Whoever gets that pick isn't trading it.

Not so fast! That would depend on who got the pick. For instant, Memphis already has three young point guards, so they would probably do a deal if Beasly was gone and they had the next pick. The problem is all we have to trade is small forwards and they have a good one in Gay. I don't think Ike and our pick would come close.

Will Galen
04-04-2008, 01:40 PM
Do you think Ford reads on this board very much? :D

Don't know, but he is better then most with knowing what's going on with each team.

Major Cold
04-04-2008, 01:47 PM
Not so fast! That would depend on who got the pick. For instant, Memphis already has three young point guards, so they would probably do a deal if Beasly was gone and they had the next pick. The problem is all we have to trade is small forwards and they have a good one in Gay. I don't think Ike and our pick would come close.


What about Daniels, Diogu, and our pick for

Cardinal and their 1st.

Will Galen
04-04-2008, 02:18 PM
What about Daniels, Diogu, and our pick for

Cardinal and their 1st.


Probably not. I think the only player we have that would get other teams attention is Granger. If we offered our pick and Granger they would at least think about it.

I was thinking about this yesterday and wondered what Walsh would do if NY had the 2nd pick and Bird offered him Granger and our pick for it. (Providing Rose was still there at #2 of course)

Kofi
04-04-2008, 02:37 PM
What about Daniels, Diogu, and our pick for

Cardinal and their 1st.

Depends on where each pick lands. Memphis is currently tied with the Knicks for 4/5, we're currently 10th. If the picks end up 3 or less spots a part, I could see Memphis possibly going for it.

Anthem
04-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Not so fast! That would depend on who got the pick. For instant, Memphis already has three young point guards, so they would probably do a deal if Beasly was gone and they had the next pick.
If I'm Memphis, I'd trade all three of my young point guards and keep Rose.

Kofi
04-04-2008, 04:20 PM
Here's a RECENT (ie, not Nov or something, this is early March) snippit from a report on Westbrook by Draft Express.

Wow, how odd that they see the exact same things that several of us have been saying about his game and his role with UCLA (not a PG that is).

Again, just like Fred Jones, he's is certainly capable of bringing the ball up and getting a basic offense started. That's started, NOT created. For himself he can create, for others he doesn't. He's a smallish SG with great hops, decent but not great handles, and no sign of a deep.

I will maybe give you Ellis, though he's not as fast as him and again less of a PG.

You draft Westbrook to be used off the bench with the intentions of replacing either starting guard in the future, exactly the way the Warrior's used Ellis his rookie season, behind Davis and Richardson. He's young with a reputed great attitude and work ethic, so he will improve. If he becomes a point guard, great. If not, he's plenty big enough to be a successful starting SG. Either way, his upside is too much to pass up at the 10 spot.


Collison I would say is still higher rated even in terms of NBA athlete. Size no, but he is ready to handle NBA pressure on his dribble and is already at the Daryl Armstrong level of talent.

I'm not following you here. You say Collison is a higher rated NBA athlete, then your justification is that he's a better ball handler? That makes no sense to me. Clearly you're judging athleticism by different standards than the rest of the world.

If you're implying Collison would go before Westbrook in the draft, I'll have to disagree. Collison is what-you-see-is-what-you-get player. A low-end starter or good backup. Those types go in the 20's (Nelson, M. Williams, Jack, etc.). Westbrook is a new-wave SG with developing point guard skills. Iverson, Wade, Ellis, and even lesser known guys like Louis Williams are being very successful in that role. They're in high demand, which is why Westbrook has shot up the mock drafts.


And while Love doesn't blow people away as a physical player this is just like the freaking combine that says guys will be great...as long as no actual basketball craft is asked of them. Smarts is a skill that scouts look at, just like clutch. For all the hops in the world it's worthless if you choke it up like the Pacers did vs Boston the other day.

What NBA scouts judge prospects based solely on athleticism? None that I know of. From the other perspective, it's just as goofy to judge based solely on skills and college production. You think the Bobcats are regretting taking Adam Morrison over Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay? Or the Magic for wasting a lottery pick on J.J. Redick? Or what about our own Ike Diogu? He destroyed people in college, now he can't get playing time over Troy Murphy. You think the Warriors wish they would've went with that big high school center out of New Jersey?

Of course as the lottery dwindles down, there will come a point where drafting an under-skilled physical specimen will be worth the gamble, which is why guys like DeAndre Jordan and Hasheem Thabeet will almost certainly be picked ahead of NCAA studs like Tyler Hansborough and D.J. White.



More scoring options means more options for assists, yet like Collison he fails to make halfcourt plays for assists on a regular basis.

It also means less time with the ball in your hands, meaning less opportunity to pick up assists. He's a SG, right? So making halfcourt plays for assists isn't his primary job. Still, with that said, he's putting up 4.3 apg at the SG position. How can you not like that? Production is production.



PPG might be limited on a true team, but other numbers can be raised simply because you are free to do what you need to and have help along the way. You can lock a guy down if you don't have to double off all the time. You can get a board if you have guys that can actually block out. And you can get transition assists if a guy like Shipp is breaking out on a rebound.

Wade dominated the ball at Marquette. Westbrook does not dominate the ball at UCLA. It's as simple as that. Make up all the excuses you want, but if you're put in a position to where you're allowed to dominate the ball and everything the team does revolves around you, your stats will be padded. That's not a knock on Wade, as it got his team to the Final 4, but it remains a fact. Put Westbrook on a mid-major team where he's the #1 guy, and you're telling me his stats wouldn't inflate considerably? If Westbrook stays and Love and Collison declare, I'd be shocked if he wasn't a near 20/5/5 guy next season.

And before anyone accuses me of implying it, Westbrook will almost certainly never be as good as Wade. Not many players are.


Westbrook does play first string. He's their starting SF with Shipp at SG and Collison at PG. This is all season, not just lately.

Everything I've read and seen has Westbrook as the starting SG, Shipp the starting SF. Given their sizes and skills, it certainly makes more sense that way.

LINK (http://www.bracketography.com/features/ucla-preview/)
Starting Line-Up Introductions (video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGrpPUvPKE&eurl=http://www.boxxet.com/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles/Video_UCLA_Basketball_Starting_Lineup_at_Pauley_Pa vilion.1j0313.)



And I'm not even worried about this. Love is above the Pacers at this point, they won't get him at 10-11. Augustin might be gone too.

It's certainly possible, but not a lock. You're underestimating just how much stock NBA scouts put into size, conditioning and especially athleticism. Love is clearly lacking in the later two, and very well could be slightly lacking in the former. Let's see how he performs against an NBA-caliber defender like Joey Dorsey. If he can dominate Dorsey, I'll give him his props.

Kofi
04-04-2008, 04:58 PM
I vividly recall Wade being drafted just a tad higher than Fred Jones, no need for Google. So the NBA SCOUTS gave you their opinion, Wade was considered better than Jones. Actually picking the guy is action, and actions speak louder than words.

When Westbrook is taken 5th like he's Wade, and Love goes 20th like a fat loser, then the NBA scouts will have agreed with you.

No need for the troll-like mocking. You're above that.

Did I, at any point, say Wade wasn't a better NBA prospect coming out then Fred Jones? Clearly he was. Bigger, faster, better body control, significantly more skilled, and led his team to better success than Jones led a more talented Oregon team. Jones was projected as a late 1st to early 2nd rounder that Isiah Thomas developed a man-crush on, and convinced Walsh to pick at #14. Wade, at his lowest, was still considered a top-20 pick....

Which is the primary point - Wade wasn't some can't-miss superstar coming out. There were questions about his size and his shooting. He was a late-lottery to mid-first round prospect up until he blew the scouts away with his pre-draft performances. Here's NBADraft.net's 2003 mock (http://web.archive.org/web/20030531064020/http://www.nbadraft.net/) less than a month prior to the draft - Wade at #14. :p Not long after this mock, the pre-draft workouts began, Wade started to wow the scouts, became a lock for the top-10, and was considered going as high as #5 (he was never going before LeBron, Darko (lol), Melo, or Bosh) which is where he ended up going.

I have a hunch, given his athleticism, attitude, and youth, that Westbrook will do the same, provided he declares. I don't think he'll go as high as #5 like Wade, but I see him going top-10, ahead of guys like Love and Jordan, and possibly ahead of Gordon and/or Mayo.


Also, from Draft Express, is this bit on "athletes" and the combine that measures that ability...


In 2004, we found a similar story. Kirk Snyder came out as the top overall athlete, while players like Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng and Al Jefferson’s draft stock supposedly took a hit by measuring out as relatively poor athletes. That same Andre Iguodala who was robbed of the slam dunk championship a few months ago, only recorded a 34 inch vertical leap, one inch more than J.J. Redick this year. Rickey Paulding, Timmy Bowers and Luis Flores were all declared amongst the top 10 athletes in the draft. One struggled to average double figures this past season in France, one starred in the Israeli league, and another is currently playing in the Dominican Republic.

The 2005 draft combine was equally as pointless. Monta Ellis ranked as the worst athlete of all the players measured, coming out slow, weak and with very little leaping ability. Once the NBA season started and the ball actually rolled out on the court, though, he magically transformed into a spectacular athlete who can get his shot at will and dunks anything and everything that is remotely close to the basket, despite only being 6-3. Eventual rookie of the year Chris Paul was declared only the 15th best athlete amongst the players tested, and was somehow deemed slower than Deron Williams, Sean May and Wayne Simien. The athletic tests also led you to believe that Andrew Bogut was some kind of stiff who would never be able to keep up with the speed of the NBA--that is, until the players actually started playing basketball and we found out that he is actually a fine athlete for a player his size.

Bogut 14-9.5 at 50% FG this year, 1.7 blocks.

Bogut is also over 7' in shoes and isn't 30 pounds overweight. With that said, those numbers aren't exactly mind-blowing, and the Bucks are losing more than we are with a higher talent level (taking into account J.O. and Tinsley being out). Bogut has been a disappointment. If you could get that same production out of 10th pick, it'd be a good (not great) pick-up. If you think Love can reach that level and your content with the "safe pick" go for it. Personally, I'd rather shoot for the moon than settle for average. Some people would consider making the playoffs as an 8th seed a successful season. I'm not one of them.

As for Ellis, he came up short in the pre-draft measurements primarily due to being unable to bench press 185 pounds. That, combined with his size and lack of point guard ability, scared teams away. Needless to say, he's proven them wrong.


For all his slow fatness, Love seems to be keeping up with the spry young kids just fine. He's no Beasley, but no one is claiming he is. The claim is that Love uses a smart game to succeed. Why would that go away at the next level?

Because the next level isn't full of under-skilled 6'8" power forwards like the NCAA is? You're oversimplifying things. Yes Love has good smarts and instincts, but he also has good size and great strength by NCAA standards. Those two are a deadly combination, hence his great success. At the next level, he'll be undersized and outclassed physically. His smarts may be enough to overcome his physical disadvantages, but to what degree? To the point where he's a starting caliber PF, or just a serviceable back-up? That's the important question.


Frankly athletic players without smarts are the ones most likely to flop.

Absolutely. But players that don't show "smarts", even if they are athletically gifted, usually aren't drafted very high. See: White, James

NapTonius Monk
04-04-2008, 05:24 PM
I like Jason Thompson out of Rider. He's 6-10 with a smooth offensive game. If we're looking at eventually cutting ties with JO, he'd be a nice pick if we possibly made a move to grab an extra 1st rounder. He reminds me SOMEWHAT of Chris Bosh, but he'd have alot of work to do to get to that level. Plus he's a senior, and he sounds like a levelheaded guy. I'm looking forward to checking out his workouts.

jmoney2584
04-04-2008, 05:59 PM
How long until teams can start working out prospects? After the season?

rm1369
04-04-2008, 06:51 PM
I don't want Love at the position the Pacers will be drafting. I don't think he fits the teams needs and I don't believe he has the tools to be better than an average PF (at best) in the NBA. I realize the roster will change, but currently the Pacers have 4-5 players that can or should be playing the 4 -JO, Foster, Ike, Troy, and hopefully eventually SW. Certainly if you believe Love has the chance to be a top PF in the league and one of the top 2 players on this team you wouldn't let the likes of Ike and Troy keep you from drafting him. I just don't think Love will be at that level. He'll be a good player and have a long career - assuming he stays healthy. The Pacers need to draft someone they believe has the potential to be a top 2 player on a contending team - preferably a PG or C. These have been the Pacers biggest areas of need. They are also the two hardest positions to fill and the two that can have the most impact. At the 11th position there will be no sure star, but you have to take the chance. The Pacers are filled with decent players they need to find a great player.

DisplacedKnick
04-05-2008, 08:46 AM
I've stayed out of this thread and it's long enough that I won't be reading it.

There are two players in this draft who, if I were a GM, at this point I wouldn't have a strong idea on where to pick - CDR and Hansbrough.

CDR has one of those gooky, gangly kind of games. He doesn't seem like a great athlete, a good ballhandler or that good of a shooter - but every time you watch him do his herky-jerky thing the ball's either going in the basket or he's standing at the foul line.

The other's Hansbrough. I was with a lot of people earlier in the season thinking; OK, he's a great college player but he's really not that athletic, he'll have trouble in the post with stronger players, etc., etc.

That's until I start comparing him to other NBA players. The guy's relentless as a hustler, runs the floor absolutely great for a big man, can shoot from 20 feet and can probably increase that to NBA 3-pt range.

If you took away his ability to shoot and make post moves he reminds me a lot of Jeff Foster - the hustle guy who has a nose for the ball and is always gonna be in the mix. Then you add in the fact that he has actual offensive skills.

He's not the guy you'll make the feature player on offense - but would you leave him alone from 15 feet? And if there's a switch where some 6-5 guy is guarding him inside? He's looking more and more to me like an NBA 15-10 guy who will be vulnerable on defense against the really good NBA post players - but how many of those are there?

I'm getting higher on him as a pro every time I watch him play.

For both of these guys, but especially Hansbrough, I think if a team gets him in the 20's where he's projected, in 3 years we all might be talking about how they got a steal.

owl
04-05-2008, 10:03 AM
I don't doubt that Hansborough will be a contributor on an NBA team. It is on the defensive
end that will tell the tale on his career. Will he play PF or can he be a small forward.
He seems fairly quick and is obviously powerful.

CDR I have no idea about. I just have not seen him play so I have no idea.

With where the Knicks are picking Rose or Beasley is most likely in their future.
The Pacers are probably left with Love,Thabeet,Westbrook,McGhee, or a point.

RomanGabriel
04-05-2008, 11:27 AM
[quote=Kofi;688588]

Yes Love has good smarts and instincts, but he also has good size and great strength by NCAA standards. Those two are a deadly combination, hence his great success. At the next level, he'll be undersized and outclassed physically. His smarts may be enough to overcome his physical disadvantages, but to what degree? To the point where he's a starting caliber PF, or just a serviceable back-up? That's the important question.


It shall be very interesting tonight. K Love will be playing against NBA players - Memphis is stacked with big, long fellows, a few of which will be playing at the next level. I think he'll perform just fine, much like he has at every level, including the various All-Star camps where he's played with the likes of Beasley, Rose, et. al. Obvioiusly, one game doesn't make or break someone, but just watch - he won't exactly be embarrassed.

Infinite MAN_force
04-05-2008, 12:51 PM
yeah I am looking forward to tonights game, I am gonna watch Love closely, along with westbrook and collison.

rm1369
04-05-2008, 01:04 PM
yeah I am looking forward to tonights game, I am gonna watch Love closely, along with westbrook and collison.

I'll definetly be watching Westbrook. I'm very intrigued by Westbrook in large part because of his defensive abilities. CDR and Rose are both good challenges. I'd really like to see him matched up against Rose for long stretches, but I doubt we'll see that with the lack of size of Collison.

jmoney2584
04-05-2008, 05:01 PM
If Westbrook has a good basketball IQ and really could develop an offensive game I would more than welcome his defensive capabilities. However, he hasn't shown significant improvement from last year. He gets more minutes, but he hasn't increased output really and improvement is a good guage of a players future level. If he had played the same amount of minutes last season he would have had almost exactly the same stats as this year. In your sophomore year you expect significant improvement from your freshman season playing against the mid-grade competition of most college teams. A good example of this is DJ Augustin, he took nearly the same number of minutes and did more with it on the offensive end this year showing significant improvement. Size is still a concern with both of them to me as well. With Gordon I look past the size because he is a proven scorer, but Westbrook is just a proven defender and I can see Fred Jones syndrome in him. He has a chance to prove me wrong this weekend, but he will have to prove me REALLY wrong.

I would like us to fanagle a trade and get Love AND Lee maybe, someone who can play the 2. Hell...Love and Gordon would be a dream for me, PR and a lot of IQ all bundled into those two. Plus adding Love would fall into Bird's plan of having an all white starting 5 someday.

Will Galen
04-05-2008, 05:21 PM
Plus adding Love would fall into Bird's plan of having an all white starting 5 someday.

And just what the devil do you base that on? JEESE! Where's your evidence?

It was Donnie that signed Foster and traded for Dun and Troy.

Bird signed Diener yes, but he traded away Croshere.

jmoney2584
04-05-2008, 05:41 PM
And just what the devil do you base that on? JEESE! Where's your evidence?

It was Donnie that signed Foster and traded for Dun and Troy.

Bird signed Diener yes, but he traded away Croshere.

Because, everyone knows that everyone south of Bloomington is racist. Come on now Will.

That would be funny though. If we all thought Bird was just a slow talking man from Southern Indiana and in reality he was a diabolical race war enthusiast....well maybe it wouldn't be FUNNY persay....but you know...in a comic book world.

Will Galen
04-05-2008, 07:03 PM
Because, everyone knows that everyone south of Bloomington is racist. Come on now Will.

That would be funny though. If we all thought Bird was just a slow talking man from Southern Indiana and in reality he was a diabolical race war enthusiast....well maybe it wouldn't be FUNNY persay....but you know...in a comic book world.

Okay, a joke, I can live with that.


Grumble, grumble, grumble.

Will Galen
04-05-2008, 07:08 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/news/story?id=3331393

Arizona leading scorer Bayless to enter NBA draft

Associated Press
Updated: April 5, 2008, 5:48 PM

Arizona freshman guard Jerryd Bayless (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19137) has decided to enter the NBA draft.
Athletic department spokesman Tom Duddleston confirmed Bayless' decision Saturday.
Bayless has been projected as a lottery pick. He averaged a team-high 19.7 points.
--------------------------

Good! Keep those point guards coming out!

mrknowname
04-05-2008, 07:08 PM
westbrook having a pretty good game so far.

JayRedd
04-05-2008, 07:09 PM
CDR can cure cancer.

croz24
04-05-2008, 07:10 PM
I like Jason Thompson out of Rider. He's 6-10 with a smooth offensive game. If we're looking at eventually cutting ties with JO, he'd be a nice pick if we possibly made a move to grab an extra 1st rounder. He reminds me SOMEWHAT of Chris Bosh, but he'd have alot of work to do to get to that level. Plus he's a senior, and he sounds like a levelheaded guy. I'm looking forward to checking out his workouts.


:iagree:

rexnom
04-05-2008, 07:28 PM
Yeah, I'm sold on Westbrook.

Hicks
04-05-2008, 07:33 PM
Yeah, I'm sold on Love.

Hicks
04-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Honestly, watching this game and thinking about what I've read already, I think I'd be pretty happy if we walked away from the draft with both Westbrook AND Love.

mrknowname
04-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Honestly, watching this game and thinking about what I've read already, I think I'd be pretty happy if we walked away from the draft with both Westbrook AND Love.


i'd wet the bed if Larry was able to pull that off

Trader Joe
04-05-2008, 07:57 PM
All I know is that I don't want Collison. I'm not impressed with him at all.

JayRedd
04-05-2008, 07:58 PM
The best two pros in this game play for Memphis.

CDR for President.

rexnom
04-05-2008, 08:00 PM
The best two pros in this game play for Memphis.

CDR for President.
I'd rather have Westbrook than CDR, especially for the Pacers.

Btw, Rose would be an absolute franchise changer for the Pacers. If I knew he was this good, I would have promoted tanking from day 1. Jesus, this kid is good.

JayRedd
04-05-2008, 08:02 PM
I wouldn't.

And that foul 45 feet from the hoop with 3:00 minutes left in a Final Four game tells me just about all I need to know about Collison, who I like less and less every time I see.

AesopRockOn
04-05-2008, 08:02 PM
Wow, Collison is stupid; either that or he just doesn't want to be on the court when they lose.

Hicks
04-05-2008, 08:03 PM
Yeah Rose looks really good.

owl
04-05-2008, 08:05 PM
If I were the Pacers I would not touch any of the point guards not named Rose, at least
at 10-12. Go big.

Major Cold
04-05-2008, 08:07 PM
The 6 minute mark to 4 minute mark in the second half really shows the limitations to the UCLA 3.

Love has great rotation but no hops to block CDRs dunk. Also Dorsey's strength has bothered him regularly.

Collison misses open shots and misses a huge layup. He is not getting his teammates involved. Also he gambles and gave Rose an chance to score. Finally he reaches in and picks up his 5.

Westbrook gets the ball in transition and buries his head. He went straight to the whole with many players open and gets blocked.

granger
04-05-2008, 08:13 PM
can anyone tell me why pacers still not start tanking ?

Major Cold
04-05-2008, 08:15 PM
can anyone tell me why pacers still not start tanking ?

Can we have one thread where people will quick saying this?

granger
04-05-2008, 08:18 PM
Can we have one thread where people will quick saying this?

ok sorry. watching rose make me do that. damn he is really good

Alpolloloco
04-05-2008, 08:27 PM
I really liked Westbrook tonight, he was the only UCLA guy getting something done on both ends of the floor.

Love played solid but was somehow overpowered by Dorsey, while the tempo of the game didn't do him any favors.

If Westbrook is available I say he's my #1 pick.

Major Cold
04-05-2008, 08:31 PM
ok sorry. watching rose make me do that. damn he is really good


Even if we lost every game from last week till the end of the season we would still not be even close to getting him. We would have to be one of the two worse teams to get the great chances of getting the pick

I would take Rose over Beasley in a heart beat. Only Miami and Minnesota should take Beasley over Rose.

Major Cold
04-05-2008, 08:38 PM
I really liked Westbrook tonight, he was the only UCLA guy getting something done on both ends of the floor.

Love played solid but was somehow overpowered by Dorsey, while the tempo of the game didn't do him any favors.

If Westbrook is available I say he's my #1 pick.


I agree. With the team we have now we need a player who can play defense like WEstbrook. But he will not be the Christ Paul we are looking for. But I can see him bringing the ball up the court hitting Dunleavy and have our offense go off that setup. Westbrook can get screens to hit the baseline, while Granger hits the curl. When the ball rotates screeners can work for Dunleavy to hit his curl.

I love Love but he is not built for our team with our current assets. JO needs a shot blocker next to him. I want to see that so that argument can be put to rest.

JayRedd
04-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Good article on my boy.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/luke_winn/04/04/cdr/

Kofi
04-05-2008, 10:08 PM
Welcome to the 2nd round, Darren Collison.

What about Kevin Love? He finally faces an NBA caliber-defender in Dorsey and he has one of his roughest games of the season going 4-11 for 12 points and 9 rebounds. Top-8? I woudln't bet on it, but that's just me.

Westbrook definitely impressed. He's definitely one of my favorites at #9-12. I like him much better than any of the "true point guards" outside of Rose and Bayless. I still think he (Westbrook) will end up going much higher than people realize, and I can Bayless slipping to the middle of the top-10 (6-8). I'd love for us to move up to take him.

CableKC
04-05-2008, 10:18 PM
I wouldn't.

And that foul 45 feet from the hoop with 3:00 minutes left in a Final Four game tells me just about all I need to know about Collison, who I like less and less every time I see.
So, if we end up with the 13th pick......which is the better PG to take?

Collison or Augustine?

My uninformed guess is neither as I think that the 13th pick is too high for either of those PGs.

AesopRockOn
04-05-2008, 11:24 PM
I think we finally saw that Green and Ellington are the only pros on UNC. BRush is still shooting like ****; he's going to have to have that j on to keep it tight with the Tigers. Arthur v Dorsey should be sick.

JayRedd
04-05-2008, 11:38 PM
So, if we end up with the 13th pick......which is the better PG to take?

Collison or Augustine?

My uninformed guess is neither as I think that the 13th pick is too high for either of those PGs.

Well, most of the other people posting in this thread have seen all these guys play more than me so they probably have more informed opinions. But, IMO, my opinion is always the best opinion...and I would be disappointed if we drafted either.

As recently as a month ago, I thought either one was a no-brainer, but that was from listening to the hype machine noise and thinking we need a good PG most of all more so than actually having any particular love for either dude. After seeing the end of the regular season, conference tourneys and March Madness, I'm convinced that neither is gonna be any better than Jameer Nelson-level, which isn't gonna help us set any worlds on fire.

At this point, I think we just need to be in a "Best Player Available" mode.

Who is that BPA? I dunno. We'll know better in June, but I'm pretty sure Westbrook and Thabeet will both be better pros than either Collison or DJ. And even Love (who I don't Love*) will be more valuable in the sense that he could likely be one of those David Lee/Varajao/Jeff Foster/Battier/Sean Williams guys who every team would like to have. And his "basement," IMO, is around the Balkman/Luke Walton/Udonis Haslem-level, which means he could never be the Mohammed Sene/Kwame Brown-type bust that a dude like Andre Jordan or Hibbert could end up being.

Given our lack of talent, the most important thing is that we don't completely mess up this pick. Ideally, of course, we get the most talented guy possible and also the one that fits our needs. But since our needs are everything but SF, we really just need to make sure we get someone who is a valuable NBA player. And if worse comes to worse and he never fits in with our roster, at least he's someone we can trade in two years to any of the 15 teams that wants him for something more useful.







* I'm certainly the first person make that pun.

Kaufman
04-05-2008, 11:47 PM
Ahhhh the Kwame Brown story...

What a sad one.

MyFavMartin
04-05-2008, 11:56 PM
So, if we end up with the 13th pick......which is the better PG to take?

Collison or Augustine?



Westbrook.

CableKC
04-06-2008, 12:45 AM
At this point, I think we just need to be in a "Best Player Available" mode.

Who is that BPA? I dunno. We'll know better in June, but I'm pretty sure Westbrook and Thabeet will both be better pros than either Collison or DJ. And even Love (who I don't Love*) will be more valuable in the sense that he could likely be one of those David Lee/Varajao/Jeff Foster/Battier/Sean Williams guys who every team would like to have. And his "basement," IMO, is around the Balkman/Luke Walton/Udonis Haslem-level, which means he could never be the Mohammed Sene/Kwame Brown-type bust that a dude like Andre Jordan or Hibbert could end up being.

Given our lack of talent, the most important thing is that we don't completely mess up this pick. Ideally, of course, we get the most talented guy possible and also the one that fits our needs. But since our needs are everything but SF, we really just need to make sure we get someone who is a valuable NBA player. And if worse comes to worse and he never fits in with our roster, at least he's someone we can trade in two years to any of the 15 teams that wants him for something more useful.
If we were to look at the positions of need that we have....PG, SG, PF or Center....many of the likely players that we will draft from are either undersized PGs ( Augustine/Collison ), raw Big Men that could very well be the next Bynum or Sene ( DeAndre Jordan or Thabeet ), or Big Men that may or may not make it at the next level ( Hibbert )....all of which IMHO are gambles as to whether they can have a decent future in the NBA. At this point...I agree....we need more players that has the talent to be an important piece for our future. I would prefer to go with the best player that would likely become the "David Lee/Varajao/Jeff Foster/Battier" type players as opposed to gamble and end up with the next player with potential that may not turn out to be anything.

Unless there is some player that was slotted for the top 8 that somehow falls to us ( much like hte Granger scenario ), there isn't going to be a Franchise level player that can take us to the next level. With this years talent pool, our desperate need for an infusion of talented players that would fit what we are trying to do with JO'Bs Offense/Defense and the likely spot that we will draft at....I would much rather try to hit a Single/Double then swing for the fences for a homerun. This means that if TPTB does their homework right....we can find another "David Lee/Varajao/Jeff Foster/Battier" type player. That is what we need to give us the depth that we need beyond the likes of Granger/Dunleavy/Murphy/Diener/Foster/Shawne/JONeal ( assuming that he will be here ).

Correct me if I am wrong....but I don't think that there are many definite future All-Star SFs that will be available by the 12-13th pick. My concern at the Draft is if Bird is left with little to no options and the the best player available is YET ANOTHER SF. Fortunately, I don't think that after the top 7 or 8 spots....it's a complete crap-shoot at that point.

CableKC
04-06-2008, 12:52 AM
Westbrook.
Is he the type of player that could be a solid Combo-Guard for the future?

or

Is his stock high because of all the hype surrounding him over the last couple of months?

I know that there is no "sure thing" when it comes to the draft....I just want to be sure that if we draft someone....that we draft someone that will definitely impact that team in some way. The best way that I can put is that I would much rather draft the player that may not be outstanding but will have a solid future in the NBA as opposed to try to draft a player that maybe a future All-Star or turn out to be the "dud".

I guess I would much rather play it safe as opposed to gamble when it comes to Bird. I have always thought that when it comes to risks and taking chances on players...he's not a good gambler.

rm1369
04-06-2008, 12:55 AM
Unfortunantly I'm starting to think Westbrook may not be on the board when the Pacers draft. I would certainly take him over Augistine or Collison. I'm tired of watching the opposing teams pg abuse ours. Their lack of size is to big a detreminet and I don't believe either is a significantly better distributer than westbrrok.

rm1369
04-06-2008, 01:03 AM
Is he the type of player that could be a solid Combo-Guard for the future?

or

Is his stock high because of all the hype surrounding him over the last couple of months?

I know that there is no "sure thing" when it comes to the draft....I just want to be sure that if we draft someone....that we draft someone that will definitely impact that team in some way. The best way that I can put is that I would much rather draft the player that may not be outstanding but will have a solid future in the NBA as opposed to try to draft a player that maybe a future All-Star or turn out to be the "dud".

I guess I would much rather play it safe as opposed to gamble when it comes to Bird. I have always thought that when it comes to risks and taking chances on players...he's not a good gambler.

I think westbrook has the potential to be a starting PG in the NBA - not just a combo guard. He's essentially UCLA's backup PG now and led them in assists for the season. The most important thing to me is that he will be able to guard the position in the NBA - something I don't believe Augistine or Collison can do.

I disagree with the idea of going for the safe pick. I like Westbrook because I think he has alot of potential still. He's significantly improved from his freshman year and is only a sophmore. The best part about drafting him is that at his worst, I think he would be a valuable contributor as a perimeter defender - something the Pacers desperatley need.

Kraft
04-06-2008, 02:24 AM
Collison makes me ... ugh ... dribble, dribble, stupid foul, dribble, dribble. He's got the physical skill, but I don't see it ever clicking upstairs.

One thing's for sure: Kevin Love has to play in Utah, or somewhere like it. He's never going to be a factor in an up-and-down game. He's a walk-it-up-the-court-and-set-the-offense player. The only reason I'd like him for the Pacers is that I'd rather see that type of offense in the future; call me crazy, I don't see Jim O'Brien's let 'er rip scheme lasting that long.

Rim was right in saying CDR was hard to evaluate. If he was playing for Weber State, how would he look? He's a run-jump athlete that doesn't exhibit a lot of skills that scream "NBA level." But damn, he's effective.

Kansas showed tonight the problem Hansbrough will have in the NBA. Run a bunch of athletic, good-sized guys at him and his game suffers. He'll be an energy 8th-10th man in the league, I'd guess.

Kraft
04-06-2008, 02:26 AM
Oh, and Derrick Rose is great. No news here.

Will Galen
04-06-2008, 06:49 AM
Heres a good article on the Memphis-UCLA players.

http://www3.realgm.com/src_wiretap/

How The Prospects Fared
Matthew Gordon/RealGM
04/05 - 9:19 PM EST

Despite the widespread love of underdogs, this Final Four is especially magical in that itís the first one ever to feature all four number-one seeds. All boasting 30-win regular seasons in addition to their incredible tournament performances, Memphis, UCLA, UNC and Kansas are relatively evenly matched. For the college fan, this is a great weekend.

NBA fans can be equally excited, though, as these games are laden with draft prospects. Four of UCLAís starters (Darren Collison, Russell Westbrook, Luc-Richard Mbah a Moute and Kevin Love) are considered pro material, and three of Memphisís starters (Derrick Rose, Chris Douglas-Roberts and Joey Dorsey) share this honor. Since there are so many legitimate prospects in this game, itís a good place to start.

Rose and Love, as the two top prospects in this game, have to garner the most attention. Rose, a strong guard with that to-die-for combination of passing and scoring, is a player who should make an immediate impact in the NBA despite his freshman status. Love, a crafty big man whose size has been disputed, faces no such doubts about his heart; although also a freshman, he has quickly become the linchpin of a dominant college team. They both won Most Outstanding Player of their respective regionals, making their high draft positions look justified.

Otherwise, UCLA is bolstered by a speedy point guard in Collison and a couple of athletic defenders in Westbrook and Mbah a Moute. Memphisís Douglas-Roberts is an athletic scorer and Dorsey is a defensive big man who can create problems for opposing offenses.

Derrick Rose

Rose is a player who could be viewed as a savior for some of the NBAís worst teams. Heíd look in place giving the ball to young scorers like Al Jefferson (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/959/al_jefferson/) and Kevin Durant (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1311/kevin_durant/), and Stephen A. Smith recently remarked that Rose would be a great fit on the Knicks. Itís fair to say that any of those teams could use a point guard, especially one who at 6í4Ē and 200 pounds can wear down his opponents physically while retaining considerable quickness.

The main question facing Rose has been whether he can become a ball-control point guard. Averaging 4.4 assists to 3.0 turnovers on the season, he certainly hasnít lived up to the Jason Kidd (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/162/jason_kidd/) comparisons in that department. Heís shown flashes though, and sometimes those are enough to be drafted very high.

Consider that question dispelled. Against UCLA, Rose looked like a player who understands his responsibilities and is collected even at the most pressured of times. A questionable free-throw shooter, to up his percentage by about ten for the tournament and then go 11-for-12 in such a key game says a lot. On top of that, he didnít make stupid decisions with the ball, being poised enough to slow down the pace when necessary even though heís looked great running the floor. Itís that kind of mentality that will make him a successful pro.

Rose is also a dynamic scorer. More so than his teammate Douglas-Roberts, who was also very good, Rose wasnít too rash in his drives, holding back when he needed to but similarly recognizing when thereís an opportunity to score. Roseís strength and quickness guarantee that when he smells blood, there will be two points. From the outside, heís been a surprisingly good jump-shooter, and in this game he again used that patience heís developed to make smart decisions. His shortcomings have never been physical, theyíve been about getting into a pro mindset, and thatís something heís been doing.

Darren Collisonís play this game didnít merit a section in this article so Iíll simply talk about the contrast between the two players. Both looked best when driving but Collison only had one drive on which he actually scored so that might even be a stretch for him. Collisonís two points on the game, including a second half with no points and four fouls, werenít enough, especially considering his utter failure to feed Love in the post. Roseís post-game comments that ďtheyíre kind of small, and Iím bigĒ couldnít have been more accurate. The undersized Collison, who will have to battle size issues in the NBA, came up small. Rose, with the ability to tire out his man with brute strength, looked like a champion. Memphisís record-setting 38-wins will enshrine them in history even if they donít win their next game.

Rose is slated as a top-three pick, maybe first overall, and I can think of a few teams that would love to draft him. Smithís prayer appears to be well-founded.

Kevin Love

Love is one of the most developed big men in this yearís draft, should he declare. His all-around game and ability to play the four and possibly a little five makes him a very coveted prospect who still has potential but has already shown a lot. Teams like the Grizzlies, Heat and Bulls, depending on where they draft, could all use a player capable of playing both ways in the post.

What impresses me about Love is that thereís not really a facet of his game that can be disparaged. At only 6í9Ē, 6í10Ē on a good day, he can significantly alter the other teamís game plan. As a scoring option in the post, heís refined and heís willing to be a focal point (22 points per game). On the glass, he has the instinct to know where the ball will go and the will to chase it relentlessly (11 rebounds per game). His 12 points on 4-for-12 shooting against Memphis can be chalked up to his lack of touches more than anything. Defensively, he doesnít make the mistake of leaving his feet, instead contesting every shot.

Itís refreshing to see a young big man who immediately sets up with his back to the basket. Given the recent trend of big men tending toward face-up games, this helps Love in two ways: firstly, that heíll be a rarer commodity in the NBA; and secondly, that a team with a face-up big man can use him as a complement. He will need to work on passing out of double-teams a bit (he was burned for a turnover in the first half against Memphis) but that comes with time. Whatís important for now is that he can gain separation from his man and use that soft touch to put the ball in the hole.

Off the ball, Love demonstrates a similar commitment to making the offense work. With a 260-pound frame, he can set screens that will virtually block out his teammateís man, and then he can cut to the hoop for a quick pass thatís almost a guaranteed two. Players like Elton Brand (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1/elton_brand/) and Carlos Boozer (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/689/carlos_boozer/) have made at least part of their livings off of utilizing the screen with such effectiveness and their crucial roles are proof of what a big man with a post game, rebounding and screen-setting can achieve. If Love pans out as hoped, this is the kind of career the team drafting him will want: a serious threat on offense who can use his body to create opportunities for his teammates and his quickness to get open near the hoop.

Loveís rebounding might be the single most impressive facet of his game. With six rebounds in the first half, he went up against Memphisís wide-bodied Joey Dorsey with success. Whatís most promising in this respect is his offensive rebounding; too many players, especially young ones, shy away from following their shots, and the result is that the ones who do tend to look really good. A team like Cleveland, with four good offensive rebounders (Zydrunas Ilgauskas (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/425/zydrunas_ilgauskas/), Ben Wallace (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/436/ben_wallace/), Anderson Varejao (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/974/anderson_varejao/) and LeBron James (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/828/lebron_james/)) but not a lot of guard talent, has been successful largely because of determination in the frontcourt.

If thereís one bad thing about Loveís game, itís that he is not a shot-blocker. Averaging only 1.4 on the season, a respectable number in the pros but not what would be expected from a top-flight shot-blocker in college, he clearly wonít make an impact in that area in the NBA. As long as heís beside a guy who can block shots, like Joakim Noah (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1318/joakim_noah/) in Chicago or Darko Milicic (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/830/darko_milicic/) in Memphis, heíll be fine.

Man-on, Loveís defense is very good. He uses his body effectively and rotates well, so he wonít be a liability in that respect. He also snagged a ball right out of the air near the end of the first half, allowing his team to go into the half down only three, and took a great charge on Chris Douglas-Roberts (to be mentioned later). Something else about his game is that because heís not a shot-blocker and he knows it, he wonít pick up cheap fouls that a more natural leaper might be prone to get. Love might not end up being a lockdown guy at the NBA level but heíll certainly hold his own. His musculature and instincts will make sure of it.

Overall, Love looks like a sure-fire top-ten pick for a team wanting to improve in a hurry. He isnít the most athletic, although heís decent there, but heís got the fundamentals and the drive to make something happen in the NBA.

Chris Douglas-Roberts

Douglas-Roberts is defined by his aggressiveness. Never unwilling to take a shot, heís a player who looks to generate offense anyway he can. A player who can both drive (5.4FTA) and hit the three (41.6 3PT%), he can wreak havoc with opposing defenses and certainly did with UCLAís (28 points, 9-for-16 shooting). His 9-for-11 from the line was encouraging too, although his season mark of 70.9% is better than the teamís total anemia from the stripe.

Something Douglas-Roberts will need to do at the next level is temper that aggressiveness. He has the same problem Corey Maggette (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/35/corey_maggette/) had in that he has a bull-in-a-china-shop air to him and the referees wonít necessarily cut him slack. A couple times in the first half, he would make a great-looking drive, blazing past multiple UCLA defenders, only to force a shot that wouldnít go in. At the start of the second half, he started out great with a spin move to the hole but then forfeited any gain he mightíve made by crashing right into Kevin Love, whoís a player with a reputation and with great court awareness. As mentioned, Love isnít a shot-blocker, heís a positional defender; unlike the typical method of attacking the shot-blocker in order to get him into foul trouble, the way to score on players like Love is to get out of their range. Douglas-Roberts has to be cognizant of his surroundings and avoid getting out of control.

Itís pretty clear that Douglas-Robertsís niche is as a scorer. He looks a little like Ron Mercer (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/10/ron_mercer/) in that regard, a lanky 6í7Ē guy who can score from anywhere and play passable defense but who doesnít attack the glass much. He should be available in the middle of the first round and a team looking for a player with his skill set could benefit from taking him. He needs to calm down a little though.

Other Observations

Russell Westbrook looked really good and is making a case for himself as a big-time NBA prospect. His 22 points were all that kept the game from being even worse for UCLA, and he got them in a variety of ways. A drive from Westbrook could result in a pull-up jumper or he could go all the way, and Memphis never figured out how to stop him. That kind of scoring, if he can do it consistently, is the missing piece to go along with his pesky perimeter defense and make him more than another Royal Ivey (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/981/royal_ivey/).

Joey Dorsey did what he was supposed to do, which is clear the glass and not care if he scores. With no points and 15 rebounds, he played a team game with no regard to his own personal glory, and itís resulted in him having a chance to win the ultimate team honor. He also played great defense on Love, taking advantage of UCLAís perplexed look on offense to deny Love the ball. Loveís two points in the second half can at least partially be attributed to Dorseyís defense.

Prospects aside, one thing to remember about this game is that Memphis did win by fifteen points, blowing out UCLA in the second half. Down the stretch, Rose looked exceptional, Douglas-Roberts scored well and Dorsey owned the boards. Players excelling in their roles are the ones who do well in the pros, where itís still a team game, and all three guys are definitely getting looks from NBA scouts. On UCLAís side, Westbrook did his job and Love at least tried to do his but Collisonís poor play hampered the team too much. UCLA needed more points out of Love and more everything out of Collison if it wanted to win this game. Hats off to Memphis, a team with some NBA-ready players and a title-ready team. [READ] (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:rgmow%28%27/rgmow.php?aid=51795%27,%2751795%27%29)

Rajah Brown
04-06-2008, 08:07 AM
CableKC-

Well said. And I agree, the bottom line with this draft pick is that
the Pacers can't afford to miss on it. They have to make sure
they either get a kid who is destined to be a key component of
the nucleus that leads them forward or use the pick in a deal
that nets that kind of existing, young NBA guy.

And dovetailing with that reality is that those of us who've steadfastly
preferred picking at #7-8 to making a fruitless run at the playoffs
that leaves us at #11-12 we'ren't out to lunch. In this draft, the
difference may well be huge.

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 11:47 AM
May well be huge.

That is what you are willing to tank the rest of this season? A may well be huge.

Rajah Brown
04-07-2008, 12:14 PM
intridcold-

This oughta clear up my stance. I don't give a ***** about this
season. Period.

Of course, I don't expect the players, coaches or most fans
to agree with me.

OakMoses
04-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Collison makes me ... ugh ... dribble, dribble, stupid foul, dribble, dribble. He's got the physical skill, but I don't see it ever clicking upstairs.

One thing's for sure: Kevin Love has to play in Utah, or somewhere like it. He's never going to be a factor in an up-and-down game. He's a walk-it-up-the-court-and-set-the-offense player. The only reason I'd like him for the Pacers is that I'd rather see that type of offense in the future; call me crazy, I don't see Jim O'Brien's let 'er rip scheme lasting that long.

Rim was right in saying CDR was hard to evaluate. If he was playing for Weber State, how would he look? He's a run-jump athlete that doesn't exhibit a lot of skills that scream "NBA level." But damn, he's effective.


Don't judge Collison solely based on this game. He'll be an NBA PG, maybe not a great one, but he'll play and contribute positively somewhere. You can't knock him for not being able to guard Derrick Rose. It's not like Westbrook, who many people consider the best perimeter defender in college basketball, did a great job on Rose himself.

Naptown_Seth
04-07-2008, 01:12 PM
I wouldn't.

And that foul 45 feet from the hoop with 3:00 minutes left in a Final Four game tells me just about all I need to know about Collison, who I like less and less every time I see.
I like Westbrook more than CDR too. I've seen both have good and bad nights but over the long haul I think W'brook has been more reliable.

However this is a bingo on Collison. He's not as bad as this game, but it showed that given an unfavorable matchup he's far worse than he was looking a few weeks ago.

Rose just put both Augustin and Collison in perspective, which is exactly why I've been wanting Love there instead. Total impact rather than settling due to need.


Now Love's game was a good measure. Yes his scoring was down a bit, but that's about where I think he'd slot on a given night. You saw the total package, good and bad. He was smart, stayed on the floor instead of chasing shots, but also got dunked on and was unable to dominate Dorsey.

You won't get the highlight blocks, but then why was a perimeter player coming to the rim for the dunk in the first place with all those "great" UCLA defensive guards? How many times did you see him not chase on a fake and force a guy to make the shot straight up resulting in a miss?

OTOH most people have been seeing Dorsey as Dale/Big Ben caliber and if it wasn't for attitude he'd be on the Pacer radar. So I think this was a great view of "pro vs pro" and both showed you what you will get with them. Just how many points did the Memphis bigs score on Love? Didn't exactly show him as a weak defender. Dorsey isn't Lopez, but then Love had decent success stopping him too.


Over to Kansas, Rush proved his full game too. He was a little streaky, but ultimately the reason I like him is for those times when he does inject himself into the game. He shies from being the star, but when left to just fit in where it's needed he tends to shine. When the lead fell to 4 he came up with a huge offensive rebound and score and then a huge defensive rebound at the other end.

That's Rush, that's how he impacts a game. Thus the McKey comparisons I've been making (but at SG obviously).


There are lots of talented prospects, but Love and Rush keep showing that intangibles side, the smarts, the apparent coachability, the knack for injecting themselves at key moments.


One thing about Love/Westbrook and NBA talent defenders. Remind me again about how Westbrook scored at will against Courtney Lee. (hint: 3-15) Exactly.

Westbrook won't score like that regularly because he already hasn't. It's only been a few games ago when it was Collison doing the EXACT SAME THING Westbrook just did. So I guess it's back to top 5 for Collison.

Or maybe the truth is that this was his night in a favorable matchup. He's NBA caliber, no one has denied that. I was praising him months ago myself. But don't let this game fool you if you didn't also watch them in the Pac 10 tourney. The dude was shooting 33% from the field in the previous 6 games (Pac10/NCAA tourney games).

OakMoses
04-07-2008, 01:18 PM
Collison makes me ... ugh ... dribble, dribble, stupid foul, dribble, dribble. He's got the physical skill, but I don't see it ever clicking upstairs.

One thing's for sure: Kevin Love has to play in Utah, or somewhere like it. He's never going to be a factor in an up-and-down game. He's a walk-it-up-the-court-and-set-the-offense player. The only reason I'd like him for the Pacers is that I'd rather see that type of offense in the future; call me crazy, I don't see Jim O'Brien's let 'er rip scheme lasting that long.

Rim was right in saying CDR was hard to evaluate. If he was playing for Weber State, how would he look? He's a run-jump athlete that doesn't exhibit a lot of skills that scream "NBA level." But damn, he's effective.


Don't judge Collison solely based on this game. He'll be an NBA PG, maybe not a great one, but he'll play and contribute positively somewhere. You can't knock him for not being able to guard Derrick Rose. It's not like Westbrook, who many people consider the best perimeter defender in college basketball, did a great job on Rose himself.

Don't overlook the fact that Kevin Love is, quite possibly, one of the best outlet passers at any level. Combine that with the fact that he's a very good rebounder and has range that will probably allow him to hit the three as a trailer (a la Troy Murphy), and you've got a guy who can be effective without having the athletic ability to outrun guys.

CD-R will be able to score at the NBA level. As long as he keeps his effort level high and plays defense as well as his physical abilities allow him to, he'll be a valuable player for a long time. I could see him being a great 6th man for a very good team, but I think that his ceiling is even higher than that.

Here's a question for everybody. How much would you give up to get Derrick Rose?

Granger and our 1st for Rose? What about Granger and 2 1st rounders? Ike + Shawne + our 1st? JO + our 1st for Rose and some awful contracts?

Naptown_Seth
04-07-2008, 01:22 PM
Side note on Rose. The player that did have some success slowing him down? OJ Mayo. Neither had a great game that night, but Rose didn't even defend Mayo. However Mayo was on Rose the entire time, and as was reported this was by Mayo's own desire (at least partially). He wanted that challenge.



One thing I do agree with Kraft regarding Collison, he is addicted to the dribble. He's been forcing his own dribble drive, wasting clock and going total Travis Best for weeks now. That's his negative, at least his main one.

CableKC
04-07-2008, 01:24 PM
Does Rush have the quickness to defend at the NBA SG level?

When I look at DraftExpress.....Rush's likely NBA position is SF.

Also...with his increased exposure from the NCAA Championship game, is it possible for Rush to raise his stock to the 15-20 range?

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 01:41 PM
I don't see Rush touching 15-20 range. If Noah's lack of play last year did not nock him out of the lottery, then Rush's play should not help him that much. It all has to do with matchups. Rush has gotten the right ones. And that is why I am so enamoured with Rose. Outplayed fellows Pgs Augustine, Collinson, and Westbrook.

Jonathan
04-07-2008, 01:47 PM
I feel if Douglas Roberts has a real good championship game he could lock up a pick in the 10-15 range very easy. I do not see Hansborough turning pro anymore. He will play his senior year at North Carolina.

AesopRockOn
04-07-2008, 02:15 PM
Does Rush have the quickness to defend at the NBA SG level?

I'd say that he does. He held Curry to 9-25 or something. I think when he gets fully into shape, he'll find consistency everywhere because he has a nice J.

Anybody thinking Mayo could drop to where we could get him; maybe out of the top five?

d_c
04-07-2008, 02:21 PM
I feel if Douglas Roberts has a real good championship game he could lock up a pick in the 10-15 range very easy. I do not see Hansborough turning pro anymore. He will play his senior year at North Carolina.

Hansbrough isn't all of a sudden going to become quicker and taller by staying another year in college. He is what he is and he'd just be sacraficing a year's worth of NBA salary by staying another year.

And as it is, Hansbrough will be 23 by the start of the next NBA season. If he stays another year at UNC, he'd enter the following NBA season as a 24 year old rookie. I don't think that would do any favors for his draft stock.

Jonathan
04-07-2008, 03:18 PM
Hansbrough isn't all of a sudden going to become quicker and taller by staying another year in college. He is what he is and he'd just be sacraficing a year's worth of NBA salary by staying another year.

And as it is, Hansbrough will be 23 by the start of the next NBA season. If he stays another year at UNC, he'd enter the following NBA season as a 24 year old rookie. I don't think that would do any favors for his draft stock.

Tyler doesn't need the money; his father is a doctor. He wants to win a championship for North Carolina and it would be good for the college game to have the player of the year return for another season. Your age argument is not a huge factor b/c Rookies sign three year deals with a team option for the fourth.

d_c
04-07-2008, 03:24 PM
Tyler doesn't need the money; his father is a doctor. He wants to win a championship for North Carolina and it would be good for the college game to have the player of the year return for another season. Your age argument is not a huge factor b/c Rookies sign three year deals with a team option for the fourth.

Rookies now sign 2 year deals with team options for 3rd and 4th years picked up seperately. That started with the class of 2006. The age argument is a factor in drafting. It's simply not that appealing to draft a 24 year old rookie.

It would be good for the college game, sure, but that won't have much of a bearing on whether or not he wants to come out. I'm sure an NCAA championship would weigh on his mind, but from a draft standpoint, it's unlikely he'd go any higher next year than he would this year.

OakMoses
04-07-2008, 03:31 PM
It would be good for the college game, sure, but that won't have much of a bearing on whether or not he wants to come out. I'm sure an NCAA championship would weigh on his mind, but from a draft standpoint, it's unlikely he'd go any higher next year than he would this year.

I tend to agree with you. If he could develop a consistent outside jumper and become a very good on-ball defender, I could see him raising his stock a bit. He can't improve his athleticism, which is the major knock on his game, but those are two other question mark areas where he could improve.

Jonathan
04-07-2008, 03:40 PM
The age argument is a factor in drafting. It's simply not that appealing to draft a 24 year old rookie.

Teams that want to win now (drafting mid/ late first round) would love to sign Tyler b/c you know what your going to get and he will be more mature and you would not have to worry about his immaturity hurting your team on & off court. We are both just speculating and the decision is up to Tyler; but I do not see him going pro this summer.

Ballerzfan
04-07-2008, 04:19 PM
The more I get to see CDR of Memphis play, the more I think he could end up being the "steal of the draft pick" that will be talked about in later years. The question is if you are TPTB, is his future as a SG or SF? I see in him flashes of Michael Cooper. Good all around game that gets better and better.

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 04:30 PM
So yes, it's time that we start talking about the draft, since it is next to impossible that we make the playoffs. We are in a tough situation, we miss the playoffs and we are stuck at #11.. Not a very good place to get to pick at.. But still, better than 19 other teams. It's time to start talking about who you think we will get, who you want(REALISTICALLY), what you want to happen during the draft(trades/picks), etc.

What should we do? Many of the experts have us picking DJ Augustin. I REALLY don't think that's a wise choice for us. I was looking around at some possibilities at guys that we should and could pick up if we wanted.

The two positions I think we should focus on are PG and C. We need that leadership point guard who is a pass first type and preferably one that drives to the basket, which makes it easier to create his own shot or a shot for others.

A big dominating C is another need. Harrison isn't gonna be that guy that we thought he was gonna be. I have my eyes on one guy that I would love to see the Pacers nab up.

Here are some guys that I think we should keep an eye on and draft. If no trades our done, in this order this is who/when I would want to draft these guys.

1st Pick

Hasheem Thabeet- Standing in at 7'3, he's the big center that we need and with a little work with JO on the offensive side, he could very well become a top 5 Center in the league. FOUR BLOCKED SHOTS A GAME. That is incredible. At #11 we could easily grab him. I think that we should trade down a few spots and receive the best draft pick next year that we can for doing so.
NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE: http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/hasheemthabeet.html

2nd pick

Lester Hudson- A very underrated PG out of Tennessee-Martin. He has the passing and leadership ability that we need for our PG position. He is also a prolific scorer. It's a wonder at how he is in the second round. I guess that's what happens when you play on a low profile team. That scares some people away, but you can't ignore a guys talent. 1.17 A/T ratio. Not the best, but he's still very young and can easily be improved. In his first game of the year he played #1 ranked Memphis and scored 35 points against them.. His A/T ratio was very bad for that game though. He has also tallied a Triple Double this year.(Pts, Assts,stls) He is not an extremely solid PG at this point in his career, but he seemingly could do very well once worked with.
NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE:http://nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/lesterhudson.html

Anyways, I realize both of these picks are very unrealistic to happen, just like most people's mock drafts, but it's just what I came up with when I was scouting people in the draft..

Other PG's I would love to have, but we would have to either not draft Thabeet, or trade for another 1st rounder this year are as follows:

Russel Westbrook (May be out of our reach)
DJ Augustin (Big risk, I'm weary about him for some reason)
Darren Collison(Fast as lighting, in our reach)
And Possibly Kyle Weaver(PG/SG combo/ very reliable decision maker)

So post away. I'm sure a lot of you will disagree with my picks. Go ahead and say your thoughts about anything Draft wise.

NapTonius Monk
04-07-2008, 04:34 PM
I'd say that he does. He held Curry to 9-25 or something. I think when he gets fully into shape, he'll find consistency everywhere because he has a nice J.

Anybody thinking Mayo could drop to where we could get him; maybe out of the top five?

I think as he gets into individual workouts, where he can wow teams again with his individual skillset, he's going to stay a top 7 pick. But then again, teams have been know to go stupid when it's their turn to draft. Korolev being drafted over Granger for example. So, maybe it happens, but I don't think so.

Kofi
04-07-2008, 04:34 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=35948

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 04:36 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=35948
Ya, but that one is 37 pages long.. Basically people just dreaming of us getting one of the top 5 guys.. So I figured I would start a realistic one.

NapTonius Monk
04-07-2008, 04:45 PM
I personally think we should address the PG position in the draft, as acquiring one by way of trade will likely merit you something you already have. That is, unless Memphis somehow lucks into Rose, and is willing to trade Conley, Crittendon, or Lowry (whom they may be looking to move anyway). But I would be ok with Thabeet. Coupled with JO, where all he'd really have to do is play defense and rebound, I think he'd do well. DeAndre Jordan would be a nice big man snag as well, although he has a loooong way to go before he's NBA ready. I'm also starting to warm up to the idea of Kevin Love, but he's not my first choice. My personal wishlist starts with Westbrook. Our biggest issue isn't scoring from the perimeter. We can't stop or slow anyone down from out there. Westbrook brings a nice package of defensive/offensive skills, and I think he's too valuable to pass up if we have a chance to draft him.

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 04:47 PM
I personally think we should address the PG position in the draft, as acquiring one by way of trade will likely merit you something you already have. That is, unless Memphis somehow lucks into Rose, and is willing to trade Conley, Crittendon, or Lowry (whom they may be looking to move anyway). But I would be ok with Thabeet. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Kevin Love, but he's not my first choice. My personal wishlist starts with Westbrook. Our biggest issue isn't scoring from the perimeter. We can't stop or slow anyone down from out there. Westbrook brings a nice package of defensive/offensive skills, and I think he's too valuable to pass up if we have a chance to draft him.
Ya, I think PG is our biggest need.. However when I see a dominating 7'3 C just waiting to be picked.. I just can't resist. His only weakness is offense and thats perfectly fine with me. Westbrook is at the top of my PG wish list as well.

Since86
04-07-2008, 04:58 PM
I tend to agree with you. If he could develop a consistent outside jumper and become a very good on-ball defender, I could see him raising his stock a bit. He can't improve his athleticism, which is the major knock on his game, but those are two other question mark areas where he could improve.

I think the put back dunk he had in the Elite 8, should have put his athleticism quetions to rest. I don't like him as a player one bit, I think he won't be anywhere near what he should be because of the bruiser style he plays. Great college player, horrible pro.

But anyways back to my original point. Not everyone can do what he did. It wasn't the height at which he got, because he was freaking up there. It was the manner in which he did do it. He went from a pretty good sprint off two feet. It was very VERY impressive.

The thing about him that he's not coordinated, which is weird. The way he moves makes him look mechanical, it's just not smooth at all. He's jerky and looks out of place. It's something that you never see, an uncoordinated athlete.

I think that's why he won't translate well. He has to hit all those fall away tough shots, because he's not coordinated enough to get his body into position. He just happens to be athletic enough to where he can actually hit them.

mrknowname
04-07-2008, 04:59 PM
i like westbrook and darrell arthur. we should try to get both in the draft

Hicks
04-07-2008, 04:59 PM
It's not his only weaknesses as I understand it. He apparently also can't play good on-ball defense. He's a shotblocker, and I'm not even sure if he's much of a rebounder.

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 05:01 PM
Ya, but that one is 37 pages long.. Basically people just dreaming of us getting one of the top 5 guys.. So I figured I would start a realistic one.

But this is not official.

rexnom
04-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Can we merge the two threads?

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 05:04 PM
It's not his only weaknesses as I understand it. He apparently also can't play good on-ball defense. He's a shotblocker, and I'm not even sure if he's much of a rebounder.
Ya, I haven't heard anything about his on-ball defense being bad, but for 7'3 he doesn't get that many rebounds at 7 a game, which is solid, but not what you expect from your big center.. Again that stuff can all be taught to a guy. I recommend everyone go to Nbadraft.net and check everyone one.. They have full scouting reports, I posted two of the players reports above. Thabeet is the 7th best overall player in this drafts ranking.. But expected to go anywhere from 14-25

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 05:09 PM
Can we merge the two threads?
Ya, that's cool.

Lol, don't know what the other guy means by this isn't official..But ok..lol

rexnom
04-07-2008, 05:14 PM
Woo! Merging! Woo! Admins! Order is restored! Must conform! Resistance is futile!

JayRedd
04-07-2008, 05:55 PM
http://www.cdrking.com/images/products/TV%20Tuners/cdr72100.gif

AesopRockOn
04-07-2008, 07:16 PM
http://www.cdrking.com/images/products/TV%20Tuners/cdr72100.gif

Can it create its own slot?

Shade
04-07-2008, 07:23 PM
The latest NBAdraft.net mock has Augustin at #23 and CD-R at #18. They also have Rose at #1 now.

What we should really do is try to get a couple more first-rounders and grab a PG, a C, and a SG (or PF).

Btw, Thabeet is amazingly overrated on here. The guy has no offense, subpar man-to-man defense, and isn't even a great rebounder. He's an excellent shot-blocker, and a good help defender, and that's about it.

Kofi
04-07-2008, 07:28 PM
I'd like to see us take a high-reward type like Westbrook or Thabeet with our own lottery pick, then try and acquire a second 1st (early 20ish) and use it on a "safer" pick like Augustin, Lawson, or even Hansborough.

Rajah Brown
04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
Seems like the 'CDR love' is getting a bit carried away. He's a nice
player (probably a tweener in the NBA), but he's not gonna have
the luxury of a defensive stiff like Josh Shipp guarding most of the
time every night. It was pretty obvious that abusing that mismatch
was a big part of Calipari's game plan.

owl
04-07-2008, 07:50 PM
What would the Pacers be like if Foster could score 15-20 points a game and hit his free
throws and outlet pass? Playing along side JO of course.

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 08:03 PM
What would the Pacers be like if Foster could score 15-20 points a game and hit his free
throws and outlet pass? Playing along side JO of course.
That is basically Tyler Hansborough if that's who u were getting at..

CableKC
04-07-2008, 08:12 PM
I'd like to see us take a high-reward type like Westbrook or Thabeet with our own lottery pick, then try and acquire a second 1st (early 20ish) and use it on a "safer" pick like Augustin, Lawson, or even Hansborough.
Assuming that we would be able to acquire a 2nd 1st round pick, I would think of doing the reverse....get the "safepick" with the 1st pick...and if we are able to acquire a 2nd 1st rounder....then gamble there.

With our severe lack of talent.....I would much rather take the "safepick" then take the gamble on a player that is raw with potential with our 1st pick. I feel that we HAVE to get a player that will "more then likely" pan out then one that "could" turn into something ( either a Dud or a future All-Star ). The cheapest way to add talent to our roster this year is through the draft.....I really don't think that this is the time to gamble UNLESS a no-brainer falls to us like Granger did. But looking at who will likely come out in the Draft.....looking past the top 5 lottery picks....it's a big gamble as to who will pan out and who won't since there are so many "players with potential" that are raw as there are players that may have as high of a ceiling but a more defined and mature game.

Besides....I don't want to gamble when it comes to Bird....I just don't think that he has the "eye" to judge talent very well.

owl
04-07-2008, 08:15 PM
That is basically Tyler Hansborough if that's who u were getting at..

If he could play center then you would be correct. I think for Tyler he is either a small
pf or larger sf.

I was thinking of K Love. He could play center although he is an ideal power forward . I am torn between selecting Love vs Thabeet. I suppose it would depend on their health and their attitude.

Naptown_Seth
04-07-2008, 09:28 PM
It's not his only weaknesses as I understand it. He apparently also can't play good on-ball defense. He's a shotblocker, and I'm not even sure if he's much of a rebounder.
He's not. He's a frustrating player. I want the Pacers to have the best guy, I don't care who it is. I had no opinion on HT when I started watching UConn. But his inability to affect games outside of shotblocking was just as consistant as his ability to block shots at will. No boards, no scoring other than dump off dunks, questionable one on one defense.

HT would be great coming weakside to help Love on defense. Love would stay on the ground, force his man to commit to a shot or try to work around him and that extra time would allow Thabeet to blow the guy's shot up. Meanwhile Love would slip off, block out Thabeet's guy and get the rebound if the shot actually got off. Then he'd outlet it to Westbrook for a dunk at the other end without a single dribble.

My first impression with Thabeet stayed about the same all year. Physically his strength and how he moves reminds me of Tony Davis. But he doesn't have that mid jumper and doesn't appear to be on the verge of it either.

You could see how he could become a pretty nice player, but he wouldn't be the first to become nothing in the end. He is the definition of swinging for the fences in the draft. I don't think this Pacers team has shown the maturity to warrant chasing a project like that.



You want to know how some picks end up as busts? Late season big games that skew a player into the hot property. CDR has been nice, but not great. Suddenly he slots above Augustin? Let's see CDR beat Rose and then we can talk.

Hey, I'm not just trashing other people's guys. Rush just had a monster game and now someone will chase him up into the top 15. IMO that's a big mistake. His faults and limits have been in play all year long. You shouldn't just toss them aside because he lit up NC in a Kansas rout.


I mean Gordon vs Westbrook. EJ struggled to be a PG, he looked more combo guard and had TO troubles. But he still looked more natural and strong pulling up off his dribble for a deep jumper and showed good strength in traffic at times.

And Mayo is another. Out early he's out of the spotlight and slipping you assume, but why? These games should mark some SLIGHT changes in how a player slots, but not a massive rise or fall. And yet at least with the pundits it's happening.


I guess the good news is that a defensive ace like Weaver might push into round 2 along with guys like Lee if you still need offense. The Pacers may yet get 2 or hopefully 3 guys that can all have some level of impact on the roster next year.

But then I remember that Bird is the GM...well, until he hires a GM so he doesn't have to deal with this stuff. ugh

Naptown_Seth
04-07-2008, 09:34 PM
I'd say that he does. He held Curry to 9-25 or something. I think when he gets fully into shape, he'll find consistency everywhere because he has a nice J.

Anybody thinking Mayo could drop to where we could get him; maybe out of the top five?
Exactly. Curry was the perfect test. He was getting Robinson the first half due to speed, but his ability to shoot over him forced Kansas to sic the big dog on him. The first 2 plays Curry burned him by dragging him through screens, but typical of Rush he saw this and that was the end of that. From then on he did a nice job of staying fairly close. Not perfect, Curry faked him onto the floor at the end of the game, but that was about as quick and savvy a shooter as you will find.

I could see him working the SF in some situations, but his jumper and quickness is enough to work the SG. He's definitely much more capable of defending the SG than Dunleavy is.

However as I've said all along, I like him as a BENCH guy. He's not the #11 pick, he's the 25th pick and end up being a nice #7 SG guy. I think he appears much more rounded than his brother.

But then that could be awkward if you don't retain K Rush and then draft B Rush to basically fill the same role.

rm1369
04-07-2008, 09:35 PM
I would much rather take the "safepick" then take the gamble on a player that is raw with potential with our 1st pick. I feel that we HAVE to get a player that will "more then likely" pan out then one that "could" turn into something ( either a Dud or a future All-Star ). The cheapest way to add talent to our roster this year is through the draft.....I really don't think that this is the time to gamble UNLESS a no-brainer falls to us like Granger did. But looking at who will likely come out in the Draft.....looking past the top 5 lottery picks....it's a big gamble as to who will pan out and who won't since there are so many "players with potential" that are raw as there are players that may have as high of a ceiling but a more defined and mature game.

Besides....I don't want to gamble when it comes to Bird....I just don't think that he has the "eye" to judge talent very well.

Who do you see that being in the 10 - 12 spots (the Pacers likely picks)

The only "safe" pick I see in the Pacers range appears to be Love. IMO the problem is that he has a relatively low ceiling. He's also doesn't fill a current need and likely won't fill one for the future when you consider the number of players on the roster than can play the 4. All of the C and PG at the 10 - 12 spots are going to be gambles. I don't see how they can afford to play it safe with Love. They need players to build around. They don't need to add to their collection of average NBA players.

NapTonius Monk
04-07-2008, 10:31 PM
Seems like the 'CDR love' is getting a bit carried away. He's a nice
player (probably a tweener in the NBA), but he's not gonna have
the luxury of a defensive stiff like Josh Shipp guarding most of the
time every night. It was pretty obvious that abusing that mismatch
was a big part of Calipari's game plan.

He kind of reminds me of a better Rodney Carney. I wouldn't mind drafting him. He's on top of his game so far tonight. Rose looked tentative, but turned it on late. He is really a special player.

owl
04-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Who do you see that being in the 10 - 12 spots (the Pacers likely picks)

The only "safe" pick I see in the Pacers range appears to be Love. IMO the problem is that he has a relatively low ceiling. He's also doesn't fill a current need and likely won't fill one for the future when you consider the number of players on the roster than can play the 4. All of the C and PG at the 10 - 12 spots are going to be gambles. I don't see how they can afford to play it safe with Love. They need players to build around. They don't need to add to their collection of average NBA players.

That is the crux of the matter. Go safe(Love) or go for potential(Thabeet, or some other bigman). Others may see Love as more than a safe bet. Does he have more talent than
any of the Pacers current PF's not named Oneal? Better than Troy or Diogu?
If Oneal is traded for another lotto pick then I go maybe Love and Thabeet.
Who knows, too many unknowns from the side we are viewing from.

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 11:04 PM
Rose is heating up and showing why he is gonna be the next big thing at PG. Memphis will win now.. They were in it when Rose wasn't.. Rose will push them over the edge.. That's how good he is.

CableKC
04-07-2008, 11:05 PM
Who do you see that being in the 10 - 12 spots (the Pacers likely picks)

The only "safe" pick I see in the Pacers range appears to be Love. IMO the problem is that he has a relatively low ceiling. He's also doesn't fill a current need and likely won't fill one for the future when you consider the number of players on the roster than can play the 4. All of the C and PG at the 10 - 12 spots are going to be gambles. I don't see how they can afford to play it safe with Love. They need players to build around. They don't need to add to their collection of average NBA players.
Unfortunately, I only know as much about who would be worth picking up at the 10-12 spots from what I have read from this thread. The main thing that I want to get out of this draft is to get a player that will impact the Pacers as soon as possible....whether it be a future Starter ( which is unlikely ) or a player that can become a solid Backup rotational player ( which appears more likely ). I would hope that that would be someone like Kevin Love......a player that I can see fitting on this team does but doubt that he will be there at the 13th spot. I just don't want to "swing for the fences" only because we do not have the margin of error to afford getting a "dud". If we had more options to significantly improve this roster ( Salary Cap space to acquire FA, tradeable assets that a team actually wants or multiple Draft picks ), then I don't mind gambling....but when it comes to Bird and the really crappy situation we are in for the next 2 seasons......I don't feel that we can make that gamble.

rexnom
04-07-2008, 11:07 PM
Yeah, D-Rose is one special kid. Congrats Pat Riley, you ****ing ****ksucker pansy-*** loser.

CableKC
04-07-2008, 11:08 PM
That is the crux of the matter. Go safe(Love) or go for potential(Thabeet, or some other bigman). Others may see Love as more than a safe bet. Does he have more talent than
any of the Pacers current PF's not named Oneal? Better than Troy or Diogu?
If Oneal is traded for another lotto pick then I go maybe Love and Thabeet.
Who knows, too many unknowns from the side we are viewing from.
I'm not factoring Diogu into any of our Big Man rotation since I don't think that he will be with us beyond this season. JO'B doesn't play him at all now unless he is forced to and this is something that I do not see him changing anytime soon.

If JONeal, Foster and Murphy is here....the 4th Big Man will get minutes...especially when one of the 3 get injured or traded.

Ownagedood
04-07-2008, 11:14 PM
Yeah, D-Rose is one special kid.
Holy crap. This guy is just taking over! He just hit a bank 3 with a guy in his face! That was awesome, lucky, but awesome.. I wish he would stay in college for another year.. But that's just not gonna happen.. A guys stock can't get any higher then this.. #1 pick. Beasley is good, but face it, PG is the most important position to have a solid player in, and if you have a great one, you can have bad players all around him and that one guy at the point can win games by himself.

-Three was called back.. Foot was just inside the line when he jumped back. Still a great shot.

GO LARRY!!! JO/Granger/williams/1st pick for D.Rose/Marion. :)

Anthem
04-07-2008, 11:18 PM
GO LARRY!!! JO/Granger/williams/1st pick for D.Rose/Marion. :)
Whoever gets the pick isn't trading it for our entire roster put together.

AesopRockOn
04-07-2008, 11:21 PM
I guess it'd depend on who's picking but B-Easy's still the top talent coming out.

Young
04-07-2008, 11:26 PM
I know I look like i'm jumping on the D.Rose bandwagon but all year long I sometimes wondered why it seemed everyone was quick to say Beasley over Rose with the number one pick. The point guard position is becoming the most important on any team and Rose is one hell of a point guard.

But man with Rose's play in the tournment how can you not take him first overall? This guy has taken over games and outplayed some of the best points in the country in Augistin, Drew N, and Darren Collison. Rose doesn't have any red flags in his past that I know of while Beasley does although I believe they are minor.

Beasley is a great player but Rose has shown in this tournament what type of player he can be. You need a great point guard and Rose is that. I mean this kid, although he has plenty of help on this Memphis team, has taken over games when it counts.

I don't care who wins this game. D. Rose has shown why he should be the first pick in this draft already.

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 11:34 PM
Alright Seth I am on Brandon Rush;s bandwagon. The dude has shut down CDR (how is your man now Jay).

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 11:40 PM
On top of that I can see us picking Arthur over Thabeet.

Dece
04-07-2008, 11:42 PM
Kansas' defense is just stifling, I'd take anyone in their back court.

Dece
04-07-2008, 11:43 PM
The number 1 pick (Rose), and another first rounder (CDR) completely shut down for 8 minutes now.

PR07
04-07-2008, 11:43 PM
What's people obsession with Thabeet? He has no offensive game whatsoever and his footwork for a big has never impressed me. Yes, he is a superb shotblocker, but so is Samuel Dalembert. The really good players will their teams to wins, and Thabeet didn't as his team got upset early by San Diego.

Brandon Rush is impressing. I wouldn't take him at 10 or 11, but I wouldn't mind trading down or acquiring a pick if our scouts really liked him. He's a lock-down defender and has a pretty smooth offensive game.

I'd still take Beasley over Rose.

AesopRockOn
04-07-2008, 11:48 PM
So BRush is the MVP, right?

Major Cold
04-07-2008, 11:52 PM
Chalmers is the MOP. And he matured more this game than he has all year. How would he fair having to be the sole defender against opponents PG? I would take him over Collison and Augustine.

Kstat
04-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Chalmers definitely made a leap over Collison tonight, and he's right there with Augustine as the best PGs on the board after Bayliss and Rose.

Kofi
04-08-2008, 12:23 AM
CDR needed a little CPR tonight. Wow.

Kraft
04-08-2008, 02:44 AM
Well, after watching tonight, I still really like Darrell Arthur. Just great quick feet, an NBA body waiting to happen, plenty of athleticism. He's got a little post turnaround jumper. He can function in an offense -- did you see the inside-outside game he played on that one possession in overtime? He didn't get the bucket, but that set was nearly flawless because of how they had to guard Arthur. He can get up and down the court.

There's some flaws there, but I think many of them can be coached out. If the Pacers are sitting 10-14, as expected, I'd take him over a lot of players. Over bigs like Love (who I like) and Thabeet (who I loathe).

I told a buddy he'd be the key to tonight's game ... matching Dorsey's athleticism and more ... I think that at least was spot on.

I kind of hated seeing Brandon Rush do well, only because I really like him as a 24-30 pick. I was thinking the Pacers could get a real find there, but he may have played himself out of that position. I hope not. Ponying up $3 million for a spare pick sounded great.

Derrick Rose is all-world, and has been my No. 1 pick for, well, a year. But didn't he look terrified stepping to the line late in the second half? The perils of being young, I suppose.

Here's the one thing on CDR: Would any of you want him on the Pacers, having to watch him touch his tattoo every free throw? I'm sure it has some feel-good story meaning. Whatever. Shoot the ball.

Ownagedood
04-08-2008, 07:24 AM
What's people obsession with Thabeet? He has no offensive game whatsoever and his footwork for a big has never impressed me. Yes, he is a superb shotblocker, but so is Samuel Dalembert. The really good players will their teams to wins, and Thabeet didn't as his team got upset early by San Diego.

Brandon Rush is impressing. I wouldn't take him at 10 or 11, but I wouldn't mind trading down or acquiring a pick if our scouts really liked him. He's a lock-down defender and has a pretty smooth offensive game.

I'd still take Beasley over Rose.
Ever heard of Dikembe Mutombo?? :) Thats what he is.

And I wish Kareem woulda spent some more time playin with Brandon.. Maybe he would have learned to play defense.

Speed
04-08-2008, 07:55 AM
I have to disagree on CDR, if that means Douglas Roberts, I hate his game, he's a gunner with no conscience. He takes more bad shots than good ones. I think he overpowers guys on the drive at this level, but won't be able to do it in the NBA. His jumper looks shakey. He's good defensively, but I'm not sold.

I liked Chalmers and nothing to do with the last shot. He was awesome defensively. He got his hands on half a dozen balls and knocked them loose.

I guess we'll see, be weary of guys in the championship game/Final Four, some players make an NBA career out of one or two games in the biggest spotlight.

Kofi
04-08-2008, 08:11 AM
I like Tyler Smith better than CDR and Rush put together.

Major Cold
04-08-2008, 08:46 AM
If Thabbet is the next Mutumbo, then Love is the next McHale. And Arthur is the next Horford. And Rush is the next Rush. And Rose is the next Rose.

Please Thabeet has to show more than what he has to convince me he is more than Sene.

mrknowname
04-08-2008, 09:20 AM
heres a new highlight video of javale mcgee. i think he could be an interesting pick

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSh4w-UPUk4

Gamble1
04-08-2008, 11:10 AM
Ya draftnet has us taking him at the 11ths spot. ONe thing I have been thinking about is if its better to draft a project center or an average point guard.

Sort of the mindset improve now or improve later? I think if we slightly improve on the pg position than our future draft picks will even come later in the first round making it harder to improve later. Don't know if that makes sense?

JayRedd
04-08-2008, 12:02 PM
Why hast thou forsaken me?

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 02:00 PM
Alright Seth I am on Brandon Rush;s bandwagon. The dude has shut down CDR (how is your man now Jay).
I thought the two were the best thing about this game, that battle I mean. Rush was down on himself for "losing" the battle, but I don't think he did. To me it was a draw and I was impressed with some of the shots Doug-Rob was able to still get and make, stuff like taking the bump and stepping back for the jumper. Very pro-like.

However Rush did destroy him with one move to the lane that resulted in a Dorsey foul. Typical of Rush he didn't really try to keep on that.

Rush is the guy that got that loose ball late in the game (barely), he's the guy that just comes up with plays. Rather like Westbrook in that regard. Of course he also made that bad pass that Dorsey jumped on and took the other way.

To me this game was a pretty great example of what all the prospects offer, other than expecting Chalmers or Rose to hit their miracle jumpers on a regular basis. The big six and where I'd feel safe drafting them roughly, with size an obvious consideration (bigs have more value in the draft).

Kansas
18) Rush - good defensive SG, likes to rebound, likes to get into the mix and is pretty polished all-around. Tends to fade into the background at times and still prone to a mental lapse a few times a game.

22) Chalmers - more mistake prone but a pretty solid scoring PG who has real passing fundamentals. He's been lost in the PG shuffle and some talk of him not coming out till next year, but honestly he's a pretty solid passing PG that defends pretty well. I like him more than Augustin and Collison but I think he's less ready for the NBA. I wish he'd stay next year, but will he after last night?

17) Arthur - somewhat moody, sometimes disinterested, needs to mature, but has GREAT low block footwork and can score from all 3 sides of the rim. He also works a solid 2 man game with a guard, see PnR with Chalmers and the oop from Rush. He defends and boards okay, but not with the fire of a guy like Dorsey


Memphis
1) Rose - top pick caliber PG who can score at will but appears happier as an all-around PG, not a great defender but willing. Seems really coachable, has good size and hops.

22) CDR - talented scorer who plays decent defense. He's a bit like Rush except far more willing to try and take over, for better and worse. Good kid but lacking the defensive and rebounding intensity of Rush.

16) Dorsey - his history of attitude concerns is a problem and he doesn't have enough offense, but if you need boards and defense he's a much better option than Thabeet, despite not being the shotblocker that HT is.

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 02:09 PM
Chalmers definitely made a leap over Collison tonight, and he's right there with Augustine as the best PGs on the board after Bayliss and Rose.
As I just said, I think this has been true all year. I never did get why he was listed so low, although some mocks had him going next year. Way back when I first watched KS and had no idea who was on their team (think I was watching them to see an opponent even) Chalmers and Rush stood out like a sore thumb. Arthur didn't even make an impression till after the season wore on.

This game was not a fluke. Both he and Rush did what they do. I don't think Chalmers is a sure thing but I like his passing way more than Augustin and Collison, and at times Augustin is a decent passer.

JayRedd
04-08-2008, 02:10 PM
Agree on Super Nintendo. He stood out to me even last year when I was watching more Jayhawk basketball.

Naptown_Seth
04-08-2008, 02:12 PM
These were my comments on these guys from mid-January. Might have been my first mention of them in this thread (page 3). Shows what I mean about how they've played all year.


NBADraft.net still has Rush (KS) going 28th. No freaking way does that happen if his year keeps up. If Indy lets him go by before that they should be shot, unless they have some solid lottery pick slot instead. And if he's really still projected there then they really need to find a way to trade for a late first pick.

They have Chalmers coming out next year (doubt it) and going in the early 2nd round (double doubt it). Maybe I'm just misreading their games, but they look very NBA polished to me. Both are well over 40% from the college 3 this season.

The also have Douglas-Roberts coming out next year and going even later in the draft than Chalmers. Either 2009 is loaded beyond belief or I'm a total idiot. Something doesn't mesh with how these guys have been playing.


edit - HoopsHype has D-Rob going this year and 13th. Much more realistic to me. No Chalmers (declaration guess?) but they have Rush going 28th too with the Pacers taking Lopez (PF). Now Rush is listed as an SF but he's a shooter and even their comparison (HHype) is to Eddie Jones, which to me seems about right by style at least.

I haven't watched much Lopez yet but I just don't see a PF as the pick. A star pure C like Hibbert, maybe Love or White if a move can be made, but for the most part I don't know why quality shooters that can defend at the SG spot would be overlooked.

Also relative were these comments from Jan 6th (before the previous)

Kevin Love is damn impressive. Now he's no athlete and perhaps a bit undersized in a Sean May way. He won't tear up the low post in the NBA, at least not as is. BUT, he's a worker on the boards, modestly crafty, and by far the best outlet passer in the draft. In fact even in the half court he makes strong, long skip passes. He can find guys and get them the ball safely.

Love's teammate Collison...underwhelming. Haven't seen the vision from him in the few games I've watched. Gets himself into tough spots to pass from ala Fred Jones. Just not as ready as you'd like, and could never really click above modest backup. If a guy like Love is on the board I'd take him instead, in spite of "need".

I have to watch again because I wasn't looking for him specifically at the time, but I think it was Chalmers at Kansas that was really impressive the other day (had a good box, but I need to watch to be sure). Both he and Rush are interesting, and that team as a whole plays solid ball. Neither have declared that I know of but I would think either of them could after a title run.

For the same reason I think Douglas-Roberts and Dorsey at Memphis could also become interesting options. Like Kansas they win with quality all-around play and have several good athletes. I almost think Rose should stay more than some of these other players.




From below (via edit)

The biggest question I see with Rush is wether he can create his own
shot off the bounce vs NBA quality SG's. His handle was shaky enough
in traffic last night to make me wonder. If not, he's a catch-and-shoot
guy with a shot that's not overly consistent.

I can agree with this. He does have a few dribble moves, but he's not a total scorer. Thus my desire to have him as a bench SG rather than a starter.

Rajah Brown
04-08-2008, 02:12 PM
The biggest question I see with Rush is wether he can create his own
shot off the bounce vs NBA quality SG's. His handle was shaky enough
in traffic last night to make me wonder. If not, he's a catch-and-shoot
guy with a shot that's not overly consistent.

As for CDR, I was a doubter. But he has just enough Rip Hamilton-esque,
unorthodox, herky-jerkiness to get by at SG in the NBA. He's not quite
the athlete or shooter that Rip is. But he does a decent impression.

Jonathan
04-08-2008, 02:23 PM
I would love to find a team willing to give up their first round pick this year and another first round pick in '09 or '10 for our current pick at 10-13. Moving down in the draft and getting more picks for the future would help this team drastically. Think about having the 20-30 pick this year and getting a Chalmers, CDR, Collison, DJ White, Hibbert, or Lester Hudson and knowing we will be having two mid level first rounders next year. We also have a very decent second round pick this year.

CableKC
04-08-2008, 02:28 PM
My friend put it the best way when it comes to drafting players out of college. Draft the player that has consistently played well throughout the entire year and the NCAA Tournament. These are the players that can play at a decent level because they are consistent in their production for extended periods of time. You can probably make an educated guess as to how they will perform only because you know that they have always produced at that level.

As Speed pointed out.....there are players that make careers out having a solid run in the NCAA Championships. Much like how Jerome James duped Zeke into giving him a overpaid contract when he outplayed Chris Webber in a single NBA Playoff Series....I would prefer not to draft a player that didn't show up for most of the year then plays out of his mind in the NCAA Tournament. To me....those players may have potential....but are ( what I would consider ) gambles. IMHO....good players play good all the time...not just during the last month of the season. That's why I would prefer to draft someone like Love and Rush....to me...those are players that have consistently played very well throughout the course of the season as opposed to when the spotlight is shining on them.

It's always good to gamble on a player with potential....but when it comes to our current situation and our immediate future over the next 2 seasons.....I don't feel that we can gamble on someone that has potential and has some "work to do" to improve their game to get to the NBA level....we simply do not have the luxury or the patience to wait.

Gamble1
04-08-2008, 02:49 PM
I would love to find a team willing to give up their first round pick this year and another first round pick in '09 or '10 for our current pick at 10-13. Moving down in the draft and getting more picks for the future would help this team drastically. Think about having the 20-30 pick this year and getting a Chalmers, CDR, Collison, DJ White, Hibbert, or Lester Hudson and knowing we will be having two mid level first rounders next year. We also have a very decent second round pick this year.

If you replace Hibbert with Thabeet then I am cool with it. I really believe his is going to be a better pro than Hibbert.

Jonathan
04-08-2008, 03:25 PM
If you replace Hibbert with Thabeet then I am cool with it. I really believe his is going to be a better pro than Hibbert.

I just like the idea of trading down w/ another team. They have to be willing to trade us their first round pick in '09 or '10 but several teams have a lot of picks (Timberwolves & Sonics). Having more picks would also make offseason trades more likely w/ other team ie we give you Tinsley and our first rounder for _______, _______, and your draft selection.

d_c
04-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Much like how Jerome James duped Zeke into giving him a overpaid contract when he outplayed Chris Webber in a single NBA Playoff Series....

FTR, James was playing for the Sonics and by then (2005 playoffs) Webber had already been traded to the 76ers. But yeah, James had a very good series against the Kings and basically rode it to a huge contract.

d_c
04-08-2008, 03:48 PM
The biggest question I see with Rush is wether he can create his own
shot off the bounce vs NBA quality SG's.

The answer to that is pretty much no.

This guy is a SF on the offensive side of the ball at the NBA level. Don't draft this guy hoping he'll score or create any kind of offense for you. He's definitely not worth taking in the range that the Pacers will pick. He's a #18-25 type of guy.

MyFavMartin
04-08-2008, 03:48 PM
If Westbrook is gone by 11-12, I'd be tempted to reach and take CDR this high...

Speed
04-08-2008, 03:53 PM
If Westbrook is gone by 11-12, I'd be tempted to reach and take CDR this high...

Does he have a good work ethic, I think I've seen him compared to Ron Mercer who also never met a shot he didn't like. I'm trying to not have too much of an opinion with the limited amount I've seen him play though.

Ownagedood
04-08-2008, 03:54 PM
If Westbrook is gone by 11-12, I'd be tempted to reach and take CDR this high...
Theres no way I would.. Gotta remember.. Were stacked at that spot already. Theres plenty of skilled players out there we could grab.

MyFavMartin
04-08-2008, 04:14 PM
Theres no way I would.. Gotta remember.. Were stacked at that spot already. Theres plenty of skilled players out there we could grab.

I'm just not liking the other options - project Cs like Jordan or McGee, the latter of which I could see.

I've seen CDR compared to Stackhouse. I'm impressed by his shooting, ability to create, penetrate and slash and tough-minded defense.

Picking him up, he'd be a true SG,which we all know the best true SG the Pacers have is Rush, who at best is a very good backup SG and might be on another team next year. (There's another thread relating to the lack of a top tier PG and SG on the Pacers. I figure go ahead and fill one if given the chance.)

Ownagedood
04-08-2008, 04:17 PM
I'm just not liking the other options - project Cs like Jordan or McGee, the latter of which I could see.

I've seen CDR compared to Stackhouse. I'm impressed by his shooting, ability to create, penetrate and slash and tough-minded defense.

Picking him up, he'd be a true SG,which we all know the best true SG the Pacers have is Rush, who at best is a very good backup SG and might be on another team next year. (There's another thread relating to the lack of a top tier PG and SG on the Pacers. I figure go ahead and fill one if given the chance.)
Ya, that's true.. And who knows who will be on our roster next year?? Seems like we will have a lot of trades done in the off-season.

PacerGuy
04-08-2008, 04:33 PM
I could understand a Augustine or Westbrook, but I still think we should go big. That said, I still like R.Hibbert. I think he fell due to staying "consistant" rather then "improving" his #'s t/y & GT's early exit. I just feel at 7'2"/265#, & a history of having more advanced skills on "O" & "D", e is getting lost in the "up-side" lure of some of these freshman/ sophomore ( Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet). I like Roy over any of these kids. Maybe I am under-estimating some of the hidden "Garnett/ Bosh-esk" talent those kids have, but I also see far less "Bender/Kwame-esk" bust possibilities as well.

Ownagedood
04-08-2008, 04:35 PM
I could understand a Augustine or Westbrook, but I still think we should go big. That said, I still like R.Hibbert. I think he fell due to staying "consistant" rather then "improving" his #'s t/y & GT's early exit. I just feel at 7'2"/265#, & a history of having more advanced skills on "O" & "D", e is getting lost in the "up-side" lure of some of these freshman/ sophomore ( Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet). I like Roy over any of these kids. Maybe I am under-estimating some of the hidden "Garnett/ Bosh-esk" talent those kids have, but I also see far less "Bender/Kwame-esk" bust possibilities as well.
Bender. :cry: I loved the guy.. He was supposed to be our future.. But those darn legs couldn't hold up for 5 games!!

PacerGuy
04-08-2008, 04:54 PM
I've seen CDR compared to Stackhouse. I'm impressed by his shooting, ability to create, penetrate and slash and tough-minded defense.

Not a fan of taking CDR that high at all. His shot selection is questionable, & I think we have other needs. If you are Seattle & though Beasley is not a "Need", you still take him, because of his obvious higher skill set then the rest of the talent pool. But IMO, CDR is not worth duplicating yourself when a PF/C & PG are much bigger needs. Now is we are moving Dunleavy & getting a mid-round pick IN ADDITION to our pick, OK, but not as our only 1st rounder, no way. We have bigger needs.

PS. I'm not a DJWhite fan at all w/ regards to the next level. I just think his shooting range & athletic ability is weak, & he has poor footwork. He flourished w/ his size & energy t/y in the post, but I don't see him translating at the next level at all. He'll be nothing more then a "R.Evans-type" player w/ better size. He's not much more then the next "M.Killingworth" to come from IU, IMO. Now, DJ will atleast get drafted because he does have some better PF skills, but I really don't see anything more then a 5-10 min. role player.

Gamble1
04-08-2008, 05:17 PM
I could understand a Augustine or Westbrook, but I still think we should go big. That said, I still like R.Hibbert. I think he fell due to staying "consistant" rather then "improving" his #'s t/y & GT's early exit. I just feel at 7'2"/265#, & a history of having more advanced skills on "O" & "D", e is getting lost in the "up-side" lure of some of these freshman/ sophomore ( Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet). I like Roy over any of these kids. Maybe I am under-estimating some of the hidden "Garnett/ Bosh-esk" talent those kids have, but I also see far less "Bender/Kwame-esk" bust possibilities as well.

My question is how does Roy Hibbert translate into J.O.B's offense. From what I saw he doesn't run well and he is slow as PEck.

THere is no excuse why he can't get more rebounds unless he doesn't have the heart or the brains to get it done. No way we take Hibbert.

OakMoses
04-08-2008, 05:34 PM
I could understand a Augustine or Westbrook, but I still think we should go big. That said, I still like R.Hibbert. I think he fell due to staying "consistant" rather then "improving" his #'s t/y & GT's early exit. I just feel at 7'2"/265#, & a history of having more advanced skills on "O" & "D", e is getting lost in the "up-side" lure of some of these freshman/ sophomore ( Jordan/ Randolph/ McGee/ Thabeet). I like Roy over any of these kids. Maybe I am under-estimating some of the hidden "Garnett/ Bosh-esk" talent those kids have, but I also see far less "Bender/Kwame-esk" bust possibilities as well.

Roy Hibbert will be a solid backup/mediocre starter in the NBA for years to come.

MyFavMartin
04-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Not a fan of taking CDR that high at all. His shot selection is questionable, & I think we have other needs. If you are Seattle & though Beasley is not a "Need", you still take him, because of his obvious higher skill set then the rest of the talent pool. But IMO, CDR is not worth duplicating yourself when a PF/C & PG are much bigger needs. Now is we are moving Dunleavy & getting a mid-round pick IN ADDITION to our pick, OK, but not as our only 1st rounder, no way. We have bigger needs.



I don't have a problem with CDR's shots and love his aggressiveness to the basket. Wouldn't he fit nicely in JOB's system? ;)

Not denying the Seattle statement, but think the Pacers situation at 11-12 is different. Thabeet/McGee/Hibbert are no Beasly and could all be a complete busts. Needless to say, so could CDR, but my perception is that his potential to improve the Pacers is greater.

I agree that I would love to see the Pacers get aggressive in the draft and pick up another 1st rounder. Not sure who anybody would want from the Pacers roster, but I'd love to pick up a player like Arthur or Collison later in the draft, both of whom I think will be solid pros, but not All-Star studs.

mrknowname
04-08-2008, 06:36 PM
marreese speights declared for the draft. i'd love to get him if we could another pick. westbrook is still my number one choice

Kofi
04-09-2008, 01:42 AM
Sign me up on the Thabeet bandwagon, although from what I've heard from my sources, he's all but guaranteed to go top-10.

Kraft
04-09-2008, 01:45 AM
I love that all these kids are declaring. It's wonderful. Save the shallow draft pools for when the Pacers don't suck anymore.

Robertmto
04-09-2008, 01:49 AM
Mo Speights would be a solid pick in the mid 20s.

BTW

Kevin Love will measure up at about 6'8 1/2 and weight about 3 bills

rexnom
04-09-2008, 02:20 AM
Sign me up on the Thabeet bandwagon, although from what I've heard from my sources, he's all but guaranteed to go top-10.
Thank god. As long as it's not to us. Hopefully he can push down a Kevin Love-type to us.

Ok, I just totally clowned on Thabeet...but I'm wondering whether having Thabeet wouldn't allow us to use Diogu or Shawne at the 4. Both of those guys certainly can score so getting a defender-only wouldn't necessarily be a problem. Basically Thabeet would be doing what JO should be doing.

Ownagedood
04-09-2008, 07:27 AM
Thank god. As long as it's not to us. Hopefully he can push down a Kevin Love-type to us.

Ok, I just totally clowned on Thabeet...but I'm wondering whether having Thabeet wouldn't allow us to use Diogu or Shawne at the 4. Both of those guys certainly can score so getting a defender-only wouldn't necessarily be a problem. Basically Thabeet would be doing what JO should be doing.
Ya, all the amazing things that people talk about and how important JO is on defense, well, that's what Thabeet is.. And it's not like you can't teach someone post moves or how to shoot better.. He's absolutely worth our pick.