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CableKC
03-16-2008, 10:19 PM
DJ White is longer and more athletic than Psycho-T. By all reports, DJ was the most aggressive and physically assertive of Team USA's squad at the PanAm games this past year. He was going up against grown men on a gamely basis and just flat out besting them. I think though DJ is only 6'9, his absurd length and tremendous heart will carve out a niche for him in this league. I could see him averaging 16 and 10 consistently. I will be curious to see how he and Hansbrough matchup if IU makes it out of the first round of the tourney.
If all things are pretty much equal when it comes to both players.......I would go with the hometown boy over Hansbrough. At whatever position that he is drafted....20s-30s....I consider them rotational players at that point....and DJ White sounds like a rotational Backup Big Man that can come off the bench for the immediate future.

d_c
03-16-2008, 10:22 PM
Kevin Love is short, fat, slow, and unathletic. Not exactly a recipe for success in the NBA. Yes he's smart and skilled, but I doubt that's enough to make up for his physical short comings. I wouldn't take him any higher than the mid-teens, and even that's likely a reach.

Love's stocky frame makes him look shorter than he actually is. I'm guessing this guy is at least 6'8" barefeet no problem.

This guy is probably going to get picked in the mid-lottery. I see him sort of in the Big Baby Davis mold, but with more skill, better rebounding and just a better all around game. He's going to have a place in the league.

CableKC
03-16-2008, 10:25 PM
Love's stocky frame makes him look shorter than he actually is. I'm guessing this guy is at least 6'8" barefeet no problem.

This guy is probably going to get picked in the mid-lottery. I see him sort of in the Big Baby Davis mold, but with more skill, better rebounding and just a better all around game. He's going to have a place in the league.
I wonder if there is a chance that he can stay in college for another year. Not that many "so-called" experts place him anywhere near the top-10 in the draft. Could he return to College to try to improve his stock for another season?

d_c
03-16-2008, 10:34 PM
I wonder if there is a chance that he can stay in college for another year. Not that many "so-called" experts place him anywhere near the top-10 in the draft. Could he return to College to try to improve his stock for another season?

That's always possible. Maybe Love really enjoys college like those guys at Florida who stayed an extra year. It does happen.

But consider that if he stays, how much is his stock going to improve? Unless he grows taller or gets quicker, I don't know how much more scouts are going to like him next year as opposed to this year. He's already got a well rounded game. What could he really improve on next year to really wow the scouts?

Look at Roy Hibbert. He stayed an extra year. Does it look like he's going to get picked any higher this year? Does he look like any different a player? I think this year, he looks marginally quicker and more mobile, but that's about it. I think he'll get picked this year about the same spot as he would have been picked last year. Hell, staying another year cost Joakim Noah several draft slots.

I don't think Love's decision is going to have much to do with his draft stock. He'll stay or leave depending on how much he feels like being at UCLA.

Naptown_Seth
03-17-2008, 12:34 AM
Kofi, my issue with that view on Love is that TONS of "athletes" flop miserably in the league.

We all know that it takes something more than that. Typically I look for a skill that could still work vs the speed and strength of pros. Thabeet can block NBA shots, Love can make those passes and doesn't often rely on speed or strength for his success.

Now it's possible that his smarts work better vs NCAA players, I'l concede that. But that's his unknown and every other player has them too.


The KS-TX game:

Pretty much just about Rush, Chalmers, Arthur and Augustin. A bit like the UCLA/Stanford game where each guy kind of reinforced the good and bad of his game. I mean in both cases these were one-stop scouting opportunities based on what I've seen all of these prospects do in other games. Not one of them had a truly off night or a no flaws shown effort.

Chalmers is a scorer, decent but not great passer, and an off/on defender. He blatently cheated on a PnR leaving Augustin standing there open for a 3, and he got chewed out pretty badly for it on national TV.

IMO Chalmers could use another year and he would see his draft stock rise. This year I'd go for him at 25+ if you didn't get a PG already.


Rush showed that he can score when needed, but when you watch him you see that he is a McKey-like passive player on offense. He won't avoid things but he often is comfortable leaving things up to other players.

He made a monster help block on Augustin at one point, and in the first half he was even put on Augustin directly with success. But he also came right back from that block and charged Augustin at the other end. He also occasionally gambles for steals/blocks.

I like Rush around the 17-25 range. I don't think he is Lee completely. He's not a scorer really, he's much more of that McKey all-around type, for better and worse. He's not going to be your top guy it would seem.

Arthur showed some athletic moves for a big, showed his really nice turnaround, and gave hints to his potential at the next level. But he also often seems absent in plays, more than a guy with his ability should be. He's probably going top 12 on potential. I couldn't fault a team for doing that, but it's a tough call for Indy, especially on the heels of the Hulk and Ike experiments.


Augustin - went off in the first half, at times was dominate, but for most of the 2nd half he was badly forcing things. In concept it was Collison like, except when Augustin forces the action it tends to be jumpers of questionable selection. And he's no ace defender.

Right now he seems like a poor man's Bayless and should last till the Pacers pick at least. Tough call here. I think he shows more upside than Collison who is maxed out IMO. But if you have a plan to get back in the first round then you might risk skipping Augustin for Collison.



Prospect matchup of the first round - KS St vs USC. Oh mama, that should be nice. Beasley, Walker, Mayo.

AesopRockOn
03-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Pretty good article by Katz on OJ Mayo and Kevin Love. All the posters who made comments about Mayo being a bad person or seed or whatever the **** retarded speculations need to be educated. And who doesn't like a little story about Love? http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney08/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=3298159

Rajah Brown
03-18-2008, 04:52 PM
The one thing Love will have to do in the NBA is condition his body
better to hold up for 82 games. Granted, he's still a big kid, but
he needs to lose 15 or so lbs of fat and replace it with muscle.

But with his b-ball-IQ, hand-eye coordination and soft hands, I
have little doubt he'll be a very effective offensive player. And
as his perimeter shotg gets more consistent, he should be a good
pick-and-pop guy too. He'll struggle on defense to a degree vs
top notch PF's, but you can't have everything.

As for Mayo, I suspect when all is said and done, he may well be
gone when the Pacers pick comes up.

DGPR
03-20-2008, 04:08 AM
nbadraft.net has us currently picking #9 and taking OJ Mayo.

Kofi
03-21-2008, 02:18 AM
Uh oh....Mayo out in the 1st round. If I.U. beats Arkansas tomorrow (tonight, actually) then the anti-Mayo, pro-Gordon folks have new ammo. I can see it now...

"Mayo couldn't even lead his team past an 11th seed! Plus he's a drug abuser who attempted to kill a ref!"

Kofi
03-21-2008, 02:31 AM
Kofi, my issue with that view on Love is that TONS of "athletes" flop miserably in the league.

I never said all it took to succeed in the NBA is athleticism. Obviously it also takes skill.

Love definitely has skill, but is that enough when 90% of his opponents will be taller/longer/more athletic than him? His passing will likely suffice at the NBA level, but that's a single skill. What about his defense? What about his offense and his rebounding? Does he have enough skils to counter their physical advantages? Basically, is he more Shelden Williams or Carlos Boozer?

Trader Joe
03-21-2008, 02:40 AM
Uh oh....Mayo out in the 1st round. If I.U. beats Arkansas tomorrow (tonight, actually) then the anti-Mayo, pro-Gordon folks have new ammo. I can see it now...

"Mayo couldn't even lead his team past an 11th seed! Plus he's a drug abuser who attempted to kill a ref!"

If I.U. beats Arkansas, but Gordon still blows, I won't say a peep. I'm still very wary of Mayo's possible attitude problems. I can't say that I'd be overly excited about Gordon or Mayo at this point.

NapTonius Monk
03-21-2008, 07:12 AM
I really like Billy Walker. I would really like the Pacers to get their hands on him. I could see a poor man's Paul Pierce, or a rich man's Bonzi (better attitude) in a worse case scenario!

Rajah Brown
03-21-2008, 07:31 AM
Only watched the 1H of the USC game last night, but it didn't look
like their offense does Mayo any favors. Their PG looked decent,
but it's puzzling that they don't get the ball into Mayo's hands
more often.

I thought he showed some pretty good playmaking instincts and
I was impressed with the way he pushed the ball up the floor
with alot of speed a couple times.

Given the Pacers needs, if it came down to a choice between
Mayo and EJ, it'd be a tough decision.

Kofi
03-21-2008, 07:59 AM
Does Mayo have the ability to run the point in the NBA? If so, then I think it's a no-brainer. Of course, even if we're talking SG's, I'd prefer Mayo. But then again, I'd probably take Bayless over either.

Rajah Brown
03-21-2008, 08:47 AM
Kofi-

That's a question that I suspect most of the NBA scouting
and/or personnel eval fraternity is asking itself. Mayo seems
to have the court vision (he made some incredible passes
in half court sets last night) to be a PG. And he appears to be
pretty unselfish. But I dunno if he has the ability to take NBA
PG's off the bounce consistently or the lateral quickness to
defend some of them (his strength might help him offset that
some).

Kraft
03-21-2008, 12:41 PM
Anyone see Mayo's socks yesterday? NBA logo. A jackass move.

wooolus
03-21-2008, 12:42 PM
Anyone see Mayo's socks yesterday? NBA logo. A jackass move.

You do know they sell those at Finishline?

Trader Joe
03-21-2008, 01:38 PM
Does Mayo have the ability to run the point in the NBA? If so, then I think it's a no-brainer. Of course, even if we're talking SG's, I'd prefer Mayo. But then again, I'd probably take Bayless over either.

Based off what I've seen so far, I'd say Mayo is a two guard in the NBA. He could play point in the NBA in a pinch, like a 4-5 game stretch if your starting point went down, but I wouldn't say he's a long term answer for a team at PG.

AesopRockOn
03-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Based off what I've seen so far, I'd say Mayo is a two guard in the NBA. He could play point in the NBA in a pinch, like a 4-5 game stretch if your starting point went down, but I wouldn't say he's a long term answer for a team at PG.

It's really tough to say that right now. You have to remember that Tim Floyd has been the USC coach this past season. He's in the mold of a Gilbert but he has great court vision, passing skills, and general unselfishness, just like the scouts have said. If he ends up with a decent coach, he should be able to become a great point guard. He's the most NBA ready player besides B-Easy. Hopefully, he comes out; nothing left to prove.

Trader Joe
03-21-2008, 02:35 PM
Stephen Curry is the truth. If he was at an ACC school NBA scouts would be all over him.

DisapointedPacerFan
03-21-2008, 05:21 PM
It'd be dumb for Eric Gordon to declare for the Draft. And it would be even dumber if the Pacers picked him wherever our pick may be.

It looks like we will end up with the 7th-10th pick. If he doesn't make a huge splash in the NCAA Tourney, then we need to get Kevin Love. NBADRAFT.net has him falling pretty far (which is very hard to believe) but he's got tremendous size and if he is still there, we NEED to get him. If Tyler Hansborough is there, psh, lets get him.

JayRedd
03-21-2008, 06:01 PM
Mayo is in no way a point guard.

CableKC
03-21-2008, 06:15 PM
It'd be dumb for Eric Gordon to declare for the Draft. And it would be even dumber if the Pacers picked him wherever our pick may be.

It looks like we will end up with the 7th-10th pick. If he doesn't make a huge splash in the NCAA Tourney, then we need to get Kevin Love. NBADRAFT.net has him falling pretty far (which is very hard to believe) but he's got tremendous size and if he is still there, we NEED to get him. If Tyler Hansborough is there, psh, lets get him.
Picking Gordon in the top 5 is probably a stretch for him at this point.

Picking Gordon in the between 6th to 8th spots is probably debateable as to whether he would be worth it or not.

But picking Gordon up anytime after the 9th spot is IMHO a steal.

I agree with Seth on the type of player that will likely be available around the spot that we picki......any player ( at worst ) that we draft between the 9th to 11th spot ) will likely be a solid rotational Player to a solid Starter. If Gordon is available after the 9th pick.....he should be worth a try.

Dece
03-21-2008, 11:48 PM
Gordon has looked bad in every game I've seen him in. I do not think he is going to be drafted top 10 if he declares. He certainly didn't show he was worth much for his team tonight. DJ White on the other hand, I'd take him for a mid-late first round pick. Maybe we can work something out for Williams, since we're apparently never letting him see the light of day again.

Major Cold
03-22-2008, 12:47 AM
Gordon lacks the confidence that he had earlier on. The offense was horrible all game. White knew when to get his and Gordon seems lossed 85% of the time. He had good energy on defense, staying with his man through screens. But if I were this kid I would seriously think again about declaring.

rexnom
03-22-2008, 12:56 AM
EJ is playing his way straight down to the Pacers' hands.

Naptown_Seth
03-22-2008, 01:16 AM
I really like Billy Walker. I would really like the Pacers to get their hands on him. I could see a poor man's Paul Pierce, or a rich man's Bonzi (better attitude) in a worse case scenario!
Bill Walker is a clone of Stephen Jackson. I mean if you had to invent one it would look just like him.

Big SG, swings into the SF. Has the 3, not always consistant. Gets really hot, then really cold (see game 1 in the tourney). Likes to play physical defense but can be distracted by the refs. Really blows his top, tons of emotion for better and worse.

Without a doubt he shows serious NBA talent, but it comes at a price that might be worse than anything you worry about with Beasley or Mayo.



Courtney Lee - I can see a bit of the "Lee = Rush" in terms of what role he'd fill, but I don't really see the same game in them. Lee is a smoother, more pure SG type. Rush to me is a bit more of a jack of all trades, a little more physical, with a touch more "big game edge" to him. But clearly you could do worse than taking Lee once you get past 15-16th.

KS ST - USC - mentioned Walker, but Mayo and Beasley along with Walker all showed perfect "this is what I am" games. Beasley just had come off a big foul problem game where he sat early and still put up monster numbers (vs TX?). Mayo at times is a big time guy, but he struggles to truly carry his team as a star should.

Mayo has less questions than Gordon still, but not by much. I think these two and Rose could all stand another year of college. None of them will get it though.

Gibson and Jefferson didn't help their stock at all. Good kids but just not legit NBA talent at this point, at least IMO.


UCONN is gone, so is Thabeet, so if you didn't see him play it's too late now. Clearly that team needs Price even though he had been struggling lately. I'm down on Price a bit, and the injury today didn't help that. But T'beet with only 6 boards? Pretty typical for him, the guy often threatens to get more blocks than rebounds which says a lot about his true defensive commitment (ie, goes for the HR but doesn't work the fundamental parts).


Ogilvy is gone too. I wasn't impressed with him this year. Good, but not sure he's quick enough for the NBA. I figured they wouldn't do that well, but I thought he'd be part of the issue rather than being about the only right thing out there.



FOR TOMORROW
Wash St vs N Dame - Weaver gets a shot at Harangody - this should be a nice showcase, something like Mayo vs Walker/Beasley.

KS St plays again, but this time it's a serious defense. Chance to see how these two react to frustration.

Stanford vs Marquette - I don't see this as a challenge to Lopez yet, but if you haven't watched him play here's a chance.

A&M vs UCLA - Love gets to see some true big man talent. We'll see if he gets much action vs Jordan. Westbrook and Collison shouldn't be challenged much. Even Shipp could have a decent impact here.

Naptown_Seth
03-22-2008, 01:19 AM
EJ is playing his way straight down to the Pacers' hands.
You say this like it's a good thing.

Seriously, he won't be the right thing for them at the time, but with immense fan base pressure they'll chase after him anyway. I'll be PO'd.

He MIGHT really find his game, but he and Mayo are guys that seem like big gambles. You can't doubt the underlying talent and potential, but you can be concerned at how they've both struggled to do much with it down the stretch when they should be playing their best.

Naptown_Seth
03-22-2008, 01:23 AM
I never said all it took to succeed in the NBA is athleticism. Obviously it also takes skill.

Love definitely has skill, but is that enough when 90% of his opponents will be taller/longer/more athletic than him? His passing will likely suffice at the NBA level, but that's a single skill. What about his defense? What about his offense and his rebounding? Does he have enough skils to counter their physical advantages? Basically, is he more Shelden Williams or Carlos Boozer?
See, I don't think he EVER uses a physical advantage to produce. This is why I compare him to McHale.

When he scores it's often from below the shoulders using a crafty flip up or some up and under move. When he rebounds he rarely out jumps a guy or muscles them out, but instead Foster's his way to the ball. To me everything he relies on now will still be available to him at the NBA level.

And this is why I'm iffy on Collison, because he DOES rely on speed to get by and I think NBA PGs will take that away from him.

Watching May come out I was worried that he was a "fake PF", a guy pushing around college kids but about to lose those options at the next level. Love doesn't play that way, and in the end May found success by showing he could give up that style and find new ways to impact games.


Only watched the 1H of the USC game last night, but it didn't look
like their offense does Mayo any favors. Their PG looked decent,
but it's puzzling that they don't get the ball into Mayo's hands
more often.

I thought he showed some pretty good playmaking instincts and
I was impressed with the way he pushed the ball up the floor
with alot of speed a couple times.

Given the Pacers needs, if it came down to a choice between
Mayo and EJ, it'd be a tough decision.
I've yet to see his team offer much help in any of the games I've caught. Gibson and Jefferson have impacts at times, and of course they both struggled with fouls vs Beasley/KSt. I was expecting Mayo to be put on Walker but that wasn't the case. Honestly Walker looks too big and physical for him anyway so it probably wouldn't help much.

Also I've not been impressed with Floyd's offense at all. Mayo recruited himself to the wrong school. ;)

Naptown_Seth
03-22-2008, 01:33 AM
Mayo is in no way a point guard.
I disagree. True he's a natural combo type, but I've seen him D up on PGs all year long with pretty decent results. He gave Rose a handful earlier this year. He does have good vision and can make some pretty nice passes.

It's tough to say how much is lack of options, Floyd's offense or Mayo's own demand for the shot. I will say though that in many games this year Mayo has sat back with very few FGAs for a long period, almost to the point that you wonder if he's unwilling to step up. Quite the opposite from the ball-chucking image often tied to him.

I'm not saying he's the perfect answer here. I'm just saying let's not totally dismiss a pretty talented prospect.



EJ really should stay, but then the coaching situation for him makes that unlikely. He'll lose a small chunk of change going 8-9 this year instead of 1-3 next year (if he improved).

Trader Joe
03-22-2008, 01:35 AM
Whether or not Gordon stays really does depend more on who IU's next coach is and how quickly we get him IMO. I don't see Gordon going any higher than 8 or 9 now. I also feel like he could drop as low as 15-16. He should stay, but I doubt he does.

Midcoasted
03-22-2008, 01:43 AM
Gordon stunk it up tonight. I was high on him all year. he definitely ain't ready for the pros. If he doesnt return I will laugh. Could be the end of his career as quick as it started. He was getting stuffed when he drove, and let me tell you, it aint gonna get easier in the NBA. Tonight he looked like someone who goes undrafted. As much stock as he lost tonight, he lost alot of money. Unless he returns to first pick status with development.

Raoul Duke
03-22-2008, 01:45 AM
EJ is gonna suck in the NBA if he doesn't get at least another year at IU (preferably not under Dan Dakich.)

Trader Joe
03-22-2008, 01:52 AM
Gordon stunk it up tonight. I was high on him all year. he definitely ain't ready for the pros. If he doesnt return I will laugh. Could be the end of his career as quick as it started. He was getting stuffed when he drove, and let me tell you, it aint gonna get easier in the NBA. Tonight he looked like someone who goes undrafted. As much stock as he lost tonight, he lost alot of money. Unless he returns to first pick status with development.

To be fair, most of the times he drove and got "stuffed" he was fouled and there was no call.
He has many other issues to deal with though.

DGPR
03-22-2008, 02:02 AM
Ty Lawson looked really good and quick tonight.....except for when he tried to jam on that break-away. I haven't laughed that hard in a really long time. But seriously if he declares I'd be interested if we had a second pick in the first round.

PR07
03-22-2008, 02:14 AM
I don't consider myself a Hoosier fan, but I was really rooting for them to pull it out tonight. I felt bad for EJ. You could tell he was trying out there, but his low confidence in his shot and his health (his wrist?) did him and ultimately IU in. He looked like a totally different player than the guy I saw in the first half of the season. I think he could easily go pro now and have a successful career, but it has to be the right situation. People can't expect him to light the world on fire and carry a franchise from Day 1. It looks like he could fall into "Pacer-range" now, but if he were to come here, we'd have to do a lot of different things to try to deflect some of the pressure off of him. He'd also need the right coach. I'm not really sure what his relationship with Sampson was like, and I've heard Dakich is a nice guy...but it looks like the change in coaching styles had a negative impact on EJ.

Trader Joe
03-22-2008, 02:17 AM
The odd thing about tonight was this, Gordon came out confident, he was attacking the hoop and he was handling the ball as well as I had seen him all year for about the first four minutes.
Then the refs called that bogus charge on his drive to the hoop where he laid the ball in on a very pretty finger roll and they followed that up with ruining what would have been a steal and a flush for him by calling a foul on an Arkansas player.
He wasn't the same after that the rest of the game. He looked timid.
That charge really seemed to change the way he played the game. His first bucket of the game was a beautiful drive and he was aggressive, but after that call he was a totally different player.

JayRedd
03-22-2008, 02:22 AM
Lawson is really good.

wintermute
03-22-2008, 08:38 AM
it's interesting that a lot of the top prospects we've talked about have already exited the tournament. bayless, mayo, gordon - all out. bayless and gordon in particular looked terrible.

if there's a conclusion to be drawn, it's probably that these guys aren't ready yet. not everyone can be a franchise changer at 19 years old.

props to tbird for anticipating stephen curry's big game. he even predicted that davidson would upset gonzaga (which they did).

Rajah Brown
03-22-2008, 08:45 AM
There aren't ANY 'franchise changers' in this draft. Beasley comes
closest. But he's not one either.

mrknowname
03-22-2008, 10:19 AM
whats up with all the Gordon hate on here, lol. you guys seem to think what you see now is what you're going to get. Gordon still has a lot of room for improvement and when he gets some proper coaching he'll be pretty damn good.

what EJ needs to do is work on his midrange game and learn how to move without the ball like Reggie did or how Rip does right now, then he'd be pretty unstoppable

i'd be happy if he fell to us in the draft

Jonathan
03-22-2008, 11:29 AM
There aren't ANY 'franchise changers' in this draft. Beasley comes
closest. But he's not one either.

Beasely's teammate Walker might be a better NBA Player than him, We should look to get him if we draft outside of the top 10. I wouldn't mind snagging JJ for NC State in the second round either.

I feel Derick Rose will be a great NBA Player

Jonathan
03-22-2008, 11:33 AM
If EJ drops to us in the draft we as a franchise must snag him.
He can take the ball to the rack. Flip Murray is the only player doing that for this organization right now. The Kid is only 19; and a local product.Face it you could trade a six inch cold cut trio for lower level seats to a Pacers game right now.

Trader Joe
03-22-2008, 02:24 PM
it's interesting that a lot of the top prospects we've talked about have already exited the tournament. bayless, mayo, gordon - all out. bayless and gordon in particular looked terrible.

if there's a conclusion to be drawn, it's probably that these guys aren't ready yet. not everyone can be a franchise changer at 19 years old.

props to tbird for anticipating stephen curry's big game. he even predicted that davidson would upset gonzaga (which they did).

I've got Davidson in the Sweet 16. I've been on the Curry bandwagon since his freshman year. All four of the big schools in NC should be sick they let him slip through their fingers.

wintermute
03-23-2008, 03:06 AM
I've got Davidson in the Sweet 16. I've been on the Curry bandwagon since his freshman year. All four of the big schools in NC should be sick they let him slip through their fingers.

props to you too then :D

beasley also out, after disappearing in the 2nd half vs wisconsin. the talent is clearly there, but focus may be a problem. oh, and defense too.

Naptown_Seth
03-23-2008, 04:13 PM
There aren't ANY 'franchise changers' in this draft. Beasley comes
closest. But he's not one either.
Totally agree. All my positive discussion about prospects is as exactly that..."prospects".

A guy like Love that I really like. He starts, maybe impacts you like Murphy for the time being. His maturity and smarts make him Battier-like in how he ultimately impacts the overall team chemistry on the court.

Rose and Bayless I like MORE than Conley/Law, so that's why I wanted Indy in this draft instead of last years (the draft protection making that an issue last year). But both of them aren't quite showing Paul caliber play.

Collison is really moving up his stock, but I think it's semi-fake. He is doing what he does best, which is to take over. Against college talent that's fine, but he needs to be getting Westbrook, Shipp and Love more involved at times.


Lopez is showing that he's legit I think. Love just had another classic Love game. Dude NEVER, EVER bites fakes in the post. He flat out took the ball away from Jordan in the low post and proved a big point about his defense.

Westbrook is as Fred Jones as ever.


Walker/Beasley - another solid game, but that was how a lot of KS St losses went this year. That's why you can't just look at which teams win or lose as a measure of star talent.


KYLE WEAVER just proved my point on him. Harangody 3-17, out of tourney. Not sure where he'll slip to, but if you want a defensive guy that can give you something on offense, this is the combo guard for you.


Augustin has had a nice PG showing vs Miami. 8 assists of now. Tends to shoot too much as I've said, but I really still see that as a lack of options situation.

Naptown_Seth
03-23-2008, 04:17 PM
whats up with all the Bender hate on here, lol. you guys seem to think what you see now is what you're going to get. Bender still has a lot of room for improvement and when he gets some proper coaching he'll be pretty damn good.
That's what all the "EJ hate" is about.

Why chase a maybe when proven stuff is still on the board? What, Love won't get better? He's a FRESHMAN too.

In fact I heard Bilas or whomever was doing the UCLA/A&M game explain the steal by Love from Jordan in the post exactly that way. "Well, he's a freshman, that's just inexperience there," as if the dude that just took the ball right out of his hands was any older than him.

Rose - freshman, also showing more than EJ. Even Mayo has shown more, and he's had his own failings this year.

With nearly all these guys you take potential off the board. This isn't 20 seniors vs 4 freshman in the draft.


EJ for ticket sales reasons - um, you know how many fans were coming out to see Damon Bailey by the time he was about done here? Jack squat. EJ for the bump now, then ends up not making it vs Augustin or Love getting a much smaller early bump but bringing them out in droves 3 years from now is the way my business makes money.

Shade
03-23-2008, 04:17 PM
I like Love as well, but we need a PG more badly than we do another big. I'd take Augustin at this point.

JayRedd
03-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Augustin has had a nice PG showing vs Miami. 8 assists of now. Tends to shoot too much as I've said, but I really still see that as a lack of options situation.

100%.

Augustine or Collison is our guy.

Kofi
03-23-2008, 05:14 PM
2nd seeded Georgetown loses to the 10th seed Davidson.

Roy Hibbert?

6 points, 0 rebounds, 3 turnovers

Shade
03-23-2008, 05:18 PM
2nd seeded Georgetown loses to the 10th seed Davidson.

Roy Hibbert?

6 points, 0 rebounds, 3 turnovers

Thank you.

imawhat
03-23-2008, 05:36 PM
Some of these guys need to watch Better Basketball.


Does anyone remember watching Chris Paul in college? Was he dominating and clearly making his teammates better? I don't remember him.

rexnom
03-23-2008, 05:40 PM
Yeah, I remember Chris Paul being good in college but not as good as he's proving to be in the NBA (i.e. one of the best ever).

Trader Joe
03-23-2008, 05:49 PM
Paul was ridiculous in college. He had flaws to his game but you could tell he would be a top 5 PG for many years in the NBA.

Also I want nothing to do with Hibbert.

Slick Pinkham
03-23-2008, 06:51 PM
Does anyone remember watching Chris Paul in college? Was he dominating and clearly making his teammates better? I don't remember him.

:confused:

Read his draft profile-- Dynamic, Explosive, Electric, Dominant...

He was called coming in the NBA one of the best PG prospects of the last DECADE, and a guy who AT WORST would be a Tony Parker-type player.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Paul-14/

Some people liked Deron Williams better, but Paul was great in college.

pwee31
03-23-2008, 06:51 PM
Chris Paul was really good. He made Grey and Williams so much better.

After watching the tourney, it's a must that Indiana take a PG, or trade for one. It's like the Bobcats did in the year of Deron and Paul. They were off the board, but they took Felton b/c they needed a PG, and that worked out for them I think.

I wouldn't reach for a PG. Definitely look at Augustin, Collison and Lawson. if necessary we could even trade down some and get another piece, while still getting our guy

mrknowname
03-23-2008, 08:26 PM
That's what all the "EJ hate" is about.

Why chase a maybe when proven stuff is still on the board? What, Love won't get better? He's a FRESHMAN too.

In fact I heard Bilas or whomever was doing the UCLA/A&M game explain the steal by Love from Jordan in the post exactly that way. "Well, he's a freshman, that's just inexperience there," as if the dude that just took the ball right out of his hands was any older than him.

Rose - freshman, also showing more than EJ. Even Mayo has shown more, and he's had his own failings this year.

With nearly all these guys you take potential off the board. This isn't 20 seniors vs 4 freshman in the draft.


EJ for ticket sales reasons - um, you know how many fans were coming out to see Damon Bailey by the time he was about done here? Jack squat. EJ for the bump now, then ends up not making it vs Augustin or Love getting a much smaller early bump but bringing them out in droves 3 years from now is the way my business makes money.

uhh, you're kind of putting words in my mouth here buddy. nowhere in my post did i say Gordon was a can't miss prospect, i was just wondering why everyone thinks he sucks now. i think people have just seen to much of him and are a little turned off. it'd be the same if it were a different freshmen like Mayo/Bayless/Rose on IU or whatever

i really don't understand why u have bash EJ, maybe you're biased and are trying to hype up your favorite prospects or whatever, i don't know. and also i never said anything about drafting EJ for ticket sales, lol i have no idea where u pulled that out of. you could pass on EJ and when he ends up making it vs Augustin or Love then you'll regret it. see i can predict the future too

Robertmto
03-23-2008, 08:55 PM
Do you guys think Hibbert would automatically be an amazing offensive player?

No

But you draft him for his defense and rebounding.

d_c
03-23-2008, 09:18 PM
Do you guys think Hibbert would automatically be an amazing offensive player?

No

But you draft him for his defense and rebounding.

Hibbert's not really a great rebounder.

Trader Joe
03-23-2008, 09:23 PM
On the contrary HIbbert's a horrible rebounder for his size.

jmoney2584
03-23-2008, 09:47 PM
Just plain old real bad..... can't rebound worth a lick...D isn't amazing either, Harrison is better I would say

CableKC
03-23-2008, 10:24 PM
I get the impression that Hibbert is one of those players that would excel...or at least can contribute...as long as he is drafted by the right team. He's not going to fit on any fast-paced team that requires everyone to run and be excellent in the open-court....but he'll probably fit on some team that plays at a plodding pace that needs some size and scoring.

If Carlisle is hired to be the coach of the Bulls.....do you think that he would fit into Carlisle's Half-court offense and defense?

JayRedd
03-23-2008, 10:47 PM
:confused:

Read his draft profile-- Dynamic, Explosive, Electric, Dominant...

He was called coming in the NBA one of the best PG prospects of the last DECADE, and a guy who AT WORST would be a Tony Parker-type player.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Paul-14/

Some people liked Deron Williams better, but Paul was great in college.


Best PG in the nation accolade was thrown around pretty liberally his freshman year. It was all but universal consensus by the time he was into the ACC schedule as a sophomore. Some people liked Deron better as a pro (obviously) but that was more about size, strength and not getting posted up as much than it was about skill as I recall. Paul was always the higher upside guy.

Young
03-23-2008, 10:52 PM
Best PG in the nation accolade was thrown around pretty liberally his freshman year. It was all but universal consensus by the time he was into the ACC schedule as a sophomore. Some people liked Deron better as a pro (obviously) but that was more about size, strength and not getting posted up as much than it was about skill as I recall. Paul was always the higher upside guy.

Yep and another thing about Deron is that Illinois was having a great year that year and made a run to the Final Four. Chris Paul's Wake Forest team didn't have that kind of season. I think this helped Deron's stock as well.

JayRedd
03-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Yep and another thing about Deron is that Illinois was having a great year that year and made a run to the Final Four. Chris Paul's Wake Forest team didn't have that kind of season. I think this helped Deron's stock as well.

Nor did Wake have Luther Head and Dee Brown, who, if we remember correctly, was by far the fan favorite/poster boy of that Illini squad (even though the "experts" all did indeed consider Deron better).

Anyone remember that Illinois/Arizona game (they had Hassan Adams and Salim Stoudemire)? Illinois was down like 15 with four minutes and Deron just absolutely took the game over and won it nearly single-handedly. It was because of that game I haven't been surprised by much he's done. Though he has exceeded my expectations.

Robertmto
03-23-2008, 10:59 PM
On the contrary HIbbert's a horrible rebounder for his size.

From what I've seen NCAA refs let him get tossed around and don;t call a thing. II'm nto a fan of penalizing people because they're tall. :twocents:

Anthem
03-24-2008, 11:18 AM
Augustine or Collison is our guy.
Yeah, that's how it seems to me too. So riddle me this.

Forget the #8-#10 pick... let's assume Pacers get #13. Aren't both of these guys likely to be available there? Heck, assume the P's get into the playoffs and get #15. Aren't both of those guys likely to be available?

I haven't seen any tourney ball yet (brutal week), but doesn't Collison seem like a safer bet for our team than Augustin? I get that Augustin has better skills, but I'm afeared of tiny PGs who don't D up.

If we could get into the playoffs and still get Collison, I'd call that a pretty big win.

Naptown_Seth
03-24-2008, 01:01 PM
Tough to say Anthem. Augustin is a real maybe, you have announcers talking about "Best in the nation"...yes, even over Bayless and Rose. I don't agree with that, but the point is he's noticed.

And while Collison is just a terrible nail pounder who will force the issue till he gets his layup, thus the points more than assists right now, people are noticing his tourney effort paired with his pre-season rep.

Both could be off the board by 13. Personally I don't take Collison that soon even if they need him, at least if the draft stays loaded. Who declares is a MAJOR factor right now.

Now Collison at 15 AND playoffs, I agree that's a nice resolution and still possible.

But I sincerely take Love over Collison because he's the better team guy and the better all-around player. I hate to skip "need", but honestly the team needs smart, clutch guys period, way more than any certain position.

Certainly few people see Troy/JO as the PF solution in 3 years.


Now down the line Weaver might still slip and hit in the mid 20's. Not a true PG but can do it. More of a Mobley type but with a real zest to D up. That could help too. If you could work a way to get a shot at him AND get Love (or Lopez or Arthur, ie a big you want instead) that might not be a bad option.


Hibbert has problems, it's been plain as day all year. He's a great kid but has nothing that suggests NBA game. Perhaps his maturity will let him pull a Brad Miller and find his way to the NBA, but you don't draft a guy that no one else wants to draft, or not before everyone else wants to pick him.


Lee at W. KY is looking like a possible option. He's been slated to Indy in previous mock drafts, still could work out that way. Seems solid but not special to me. You get to see more of him in the Regionals of course.

Naptown_Seth
03-24-2008, 01:07 PM
I know I keep beating the Love drum. Just watch UCLA play. I've yet to see it go differently. Love never bites a fake, but he does overplay the PnR IMO. He's steady but not demanding on offense. Scraps for boards more than muscles his way to them (so no worry on NBA size issues), uses below the shoulder crafty shots rather than size to score, as well as his nice range on the jumper (again, could get these in the NBA). He starts transitions better than Dennis Rodman with brilliant outlet passing (or inbounds, even under pressure).

Collison is a very quick guard, a little small and can get bumped around. He makes some nice passes but lures himself into looking for his own drive way too much, leaving Shipp and Westbrook standing around waiting on him. He's considered a strong defender but I put him more like a little bit better version of Pacers Army (got a gamble streak to him). He helps, but he's more like that spunky starting PG than an impact solution.

Westbrook will pick up all scraps on his pure energy, but he doesn't play any traditional role. He has a jumper, he has handles, he can pass okay, but mostly he wins his battles on energy. I like him a lot but he really doesn't add the right things to the Pacers.


All 3 appear to be definite NBA successes, at least in terms of making teams and sticking for awhile as a bottom end. No longer interested in Shipp.

It is the very fact that they all offer different things that makes them a good team. I just don't think Indy needs a raw athlete so much (Westbrook) and I'd rather see the PG show true distribution and decision skills.

And I'm being fair, I worry that Augustin has been a take-over PG too. One difference though is that Collison has ridiculous options around him. Even their bench has some impact guys.

Anthem
03-24-2008, 01:20 PM
I know I keep beating the Love drum.
I know you go for best player over need, but I just don't see how it makes sense to take a non-PG if we have the option.

Unless we're moving Ike and JO, I just don't see what we gain by getting another PF.

Naptown_Seth
03-24-2008, 01:33 PM
Hey, I certainly understand it. This is clearly starting to fall into "tough call" area (all the more reason I want a truly brilliant GM in charge by that point).

But let's say it was Noah or Law. You could trade Noah for a better PG prospect at this point even, not even 1 full year into it.


I'm viewing it as a near total rebuild, that means that other than SF you need players. Yes, Dun, Jeff, Shawne, Troy, etc might stay, and some might not. But the overall shape of the team in 3 years IMO only really features Danny for certain...and the pieces you can build with along the way.

PG is the biggest need...but only if you need to win next year. And not just need, but "can" as well. If you can't then you have to think of the draft as a window of perhaps 3 years (starting this year) of 10-15 slot picks, maybe 1-2 other late first early 2nds you can get into.

Perhaps Dun remains the stabalizing vet, who knows.


Anyway, I liked this draft over last year because of all the guards. That does seem how it will go. But there are a few bigs that do look like impact players, at least as starters. You are going to need them too by the time this crap fest is over with. :)

And if EJ is on the board at 13...call it a Granger miracle. I just don't take him 5 picks higher at this point, not if you are the Pacers who can afford zero risk at this point. Just like I skip Bill Walker because of on court attitude. Great player, but not a good mesh with the current state of the Pacers.

imawhat
03-25-2008, 02:44 AM
nbadraft.net now has the Pacers selecting Love.

Honestly, I wasn't super-impressed the first time I saw him, but I'd heard too much hype, I think.


Look at his numbers, he was EXTREMELY consistent this season, which the Pacers sorely need. He also has good size. I think he'd be a perfect complement to Jermaine, and I kind of wish he'd been around about three years ago.


But the #1 thing that Kevin has, despite not being in Love with him (sorry), is his toughness/fire/desire. That's the one intangible that all of the best players possess, and he has as much as anyone. It's ridiculous how intense he is, especially when the intensity of the game raises.

It sounds simple, but I think you can gauge competitiveness on who's likely to gain possession of a loose ball. Kobe is a guy that would rarely (if ever) lose, Lebron, Wade, etc. are the same. Kevin is that way. And the Pacers sorely need some competitors

imawhat
03-25-2008, 02:47 AM
And I want to add that it appears the Pacers are going to attempt to move up in the draft to get an early pick.

rexnom
03-25-2008, 02:54 AM
I am 100% on the Love bandwagon. Can't really explain it.

jmoney2584
03-25-2008, 04:17 AM
And I want to add that it appears the Pacers are going to attempt to move up in the draft to get an early pick.

..and where do you gather this idea from? What has indicated a move up in draft position..bc I would love to see that, but I seem to have lost faith.

imawhat
03-25-2008, 04:44 AM
..and where do you gather this idea from? What has indicated a move up in draft position..bc I would love to see that, but I seem to have lost faith.

"Hopefully in the summer we'll be able to talk to a lot of different teams and make the moves we need to make and have a great draft pick. If we can do that, I think we'll be well on our way."-Bird

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/transcript_080324.html

Major Cold
03-25-2008, 08:51 AM
The only hitch I have with Love is that we have Foster.And while Love is a better overall talent I think that Love may be redundant in the role he plays here. Love has minimal upside, something that Pacer fans have been enamored with. He may not have the progression as Shawne Williams and that scares me. A big man usually struggles to find his rhythm. It takes a few years. Love is a good compliment to JO, but JO might not be here. And by the time Love is ready,JO will be gone.

So we need a player that fits Granger and Williams. We need a player that gets them the ball. We need Rose. We need to trade up to get him somehow, some way. Augustine would then be my player in our current position, but I think he will play out of our position. I would not trade up to get him. We need a distributor and if we get all the other pieces and lack that quintessential piece, then I do not think we go far. We have wing players that struggle to create. So unless we add a distributor, the only other option is a premiere post player with the ability to pass out of the post and guard the post. There is no real option in this years draft that matches that.

Now if we get Love and Harrison gets his act together, then I agree. I love Love, but with Foster and Murphy here how much more production can we get out of him.

DGPR
03-25-2008, 08:56 AM
nbadraft.net has us currently picking a PF in the first and second rounds. If that really happens I'm going to wrap my bottom lip around my head and swallow.

esabyrn333
03-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Looking at the newest mock draft I just can't see us taking Love over DeAndre Jordan. I think Jordan has much more up side. This kid could be very good if he is close to Dwight Howard as they are comparing him to I would be happy the kid needs to work on his Offense and from the way I see it the main thing we need is Defense not another shooter and I think we have enough Ofensive minded players that it would help Jordan emensely to develop his O. I just don't see Love fitting into this system his knocks are he is slow in the open court and slow feet with questionable Defense. Defense wins games and I would love to see someone in the post that enjoys D'in up.

mrknowname
03-25-2008, 11:33 AM
Looking at the newest mock draft I just can't see us taking Love over DeAndre Jordan. I think Jordan has much more up side. This kid could be very good if he is close to Dwight Howard as they are comparing him to I would be happy the kid needs to work on his Offense and from the way I see it the main thing we need is Defense not another shooter and I think we have enough Ofensive minded players that it would help Jordan emensely to develop his O. I just don't see Love fitting into this system his knocks are he is slow in the open court and slow feet with questionable Defense. Defense wins games and I would love to see someone in the post that enjoys D'in up.


kevin love took jordan to school last weekend. jordan is probably the biggest wildcard in this draft. i'd take love if he was available

hopefully we can get collison and love, two clutch players with good character

Rajah Brown
03-25-2008, 11:49 AM
I like the Love kid alot too. But I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the
Griffin kid from OU ahead of him. His intangibles aren't quite what
Love's are, but he's more explosive, has a bigger upside and plays
the game with plenty of (as Carlisle used to put it) 'force'.

mrknowname
03-25-2008, 11:51 AM
I like the Love kid alot too. But I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the
Griffin kid from OU ahead of him. His intangibles aren't quite what
Love's are, but he's more explosive, has a bigger upside and plays
the game with plenty of (as Carlisle used to put it) 'force'.

i'd take griffin over love

Jonathan
03-25-2008, 12:13 PM
nbadraft.net has us currently picking a PF in the first and second rounds. If that really happens I'm going to wrap my bottom lip around my head and swallow.

We will have two very decent picks this year. I do not see the Pacers taking PF/PF. Our team needs a player that can create his own shot and another PG. I saw DJ Augustine's value has diminished.

jmoney2584
03-25-2008, 03:11 PM
"Hopefully in the summer we'll be able to talk to a lot of different teams and make the moves we need to make and have a great draft pick. If we can do that, I think we'll be well on our way."-Bird

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/transcript_080324.html

Well I'll be damned, thanks for the link. I hope this is the truth and he isn't just thinking the 14th or 15th pick is a great draft picking spot...

Young
03-25-2008, 03:26 PM
I think that it is clear the Pacers need to go big or get a point guard.

DeAndre Jordan is an interesting prospect. I don't think he will be nearly as good as Howard though. Howard is a very special talent.

With that said Jordan may be avaliable when the Pacers pick and if that is the case we should grab him. I like Jordan more than Hibbert, Love, Hasheem, or McGee.

Something that would worry me is that Bird is not in the mindset of re building. Jordan is still pretty raw. So would Bird pass on Jordan and take Hibbert or Love? IDK I hope not but it wouldn't suprise me. Would be a mistake if you ask me.

Really not a great draft for point guards. I like DJ but how well can he defend in the league? Maybe the Pacers should explore getting Jarett Jack.

Kraft
03-25-2008, 03:43 PM
Something that would worry me is that Bird is not in the mindset of re building. Jordan is still pretty raw. So would Bird pass on Jordan and take Hibbert or Love? IDK I hope not but it wouldn't suprise me. Would be a mistake if you ask me.

I think the draft could certainly shed some light as to whether Bird really means business when it comes to rebuilding. Is he really into this getting worse before getting better mindset?

If he picks a guy like Hibbert -- without a trade in mind -- I'd be inclined to show him the door before the second round rolls around.

If the plan is to be better in three years, it's OK to wait for talent to develop. I just hope he doesn't chicken out.

Young
03-25-2008, 04:06 PM
I think the draft could certainly shed some light as to whether Bird really means business when it comes to rebuilding. Is he really into this getting worse before getting better mindset?

If he picks a guy like Hibbert -- without a trade in mind -- I'd be inclined to show him the door before the second round rolls around.

If the plan is to be better in three years, it's OK to wait for talent to develop. I just hope he doesn't chicken out.

You see this is what worrys me. I don't think Bird wants to wait 3 years. He wants to win NOW. That's why i'm worried that he will take someone like Hibbert or Love instead of say Jordan who clearly is the better talent.

I mean being slow is a pretty big flaw to have for any player picked in the lottery. The players now are just way to athletic. If your picking in the 20s fine you can have Hibbert or Love. But the Pacers suck and will be picking in the lottery or close to it and therefore should not look to pick a guy like Hibbert or Love.

Hopefully he picks the right player. But his comments and mindset have me worried that we will have Kevin Love on this team. Nothing against Kevin Love he just isn't worthy of a lottery selection.

Rajah Brown
03-25-2008, 04:11 PM
rommie-

As of yesterday, per his comments, it appears he's either had an
epiphany and now recognizes the need to rebuild/quasi-blow it up
or he always felt thay way and just didn't think he could say so
publically.

One things I'll say for LB. He's not gonna be content (ala Walsh)
just making the playoffs.

esabyrn333
03-25-2008, 04:22 PM
Anybody ever think it was Walsh that refused to blow it up.

In my oppion you have to give Larry a clean slate. If I have learned anything in the military it is the only thing worse than having a bad leader is having two leaders. You have to have a defined chain of comand. It seems to me Larry has been micromanaged since he has been there. How can a guy lead if the old leader is constantly behind his back. My sign of this is when they say the old guys where going to Donnie and the new young guys would go to Larry when they had a problem. This splits the locker rooms caused David Harrison type players. People want to be lead and when a young guy is not sure who is the boss it cause chaos and confusion. Same if you have kids you will get no where if dad says sure son you can go play and mom steps in and so no sir you have to study and vice versa. I think everyone should be excited about this it is going to do some good no matter what. One head and you know where to place blame and if Larry can't handle the job we will know in 2 years that is also the time JO and Daniels expire. Any way you look at this it is a step foward

Naptown_Seth
03-25-2008, 04:47 PM
The knocks on Love aren't out of nowhere. He is not a HIGHLIGHT player, and I don't say that as a backhanded compliment to highlight players. Love is not going to be scaring people off the rim with shot blocks. He's not making some power move for a dunk on the low block. Those things have real value. Why Love impresses is that he plays smart and stable, and the fact that because of this he is able to have success without leaning heavily on a talent margin that will go away at the next level.

If you want to truly run then outside of a PG like Nash I sincerely feel that an outlet passer like Love is your best chance.

Then on defense he doesn't gamble. It's very Foster-like, arms up, hold position, don't reach over or go chasing. The one thing I don't like in his defense is how far he follows the PnR out. He's too slow to risk coming out so far...IMO of course.

I mean guys like Hibbert, Thabeet and Jordan have greater physical stature and athletic ability, yet they haven't shown the results from those tools. It would be different if Love was a senior and had learned to play this way. That's the concern with DJ White. But Love is a freshman.

And don't take that as a knock on White, it simply means that some of his ability has come from maturity so his top end might be capped. I like him in Indy if it comes to that (not prior to 20-25 though).


Looking at the newest mock draft I just can't see us taking Love over DeAndre Jordan. I think Jordan has much more up side.
My comment on that is we just saw them head to head and Love tore him up. Jordan SHOULD be better, or so you'd think, but he isn't.

One other thing, and I don't know how I turned myself into this Love promo guy, if you want to make use of Shawne and Danny I think Love can be the guy that gets them the ball. Outlet to a Shawne dunk, 2 man with Danny for the 3, cross court for a back door slam. These are passes he's shown all year.

But a guy like Augustin or Bayless sure wouldn't hurt either.


If anything scares me it's the project bigs - Jordan, Thabeet and to a lesser degree Arthur. Harrison and Ike are project bigs...how's that working out? Could be all them, could be the Pacers coaching too.


But I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the Griffin kid from OU ahead of him.
He sure is smooth, isn't he. Like those handles. He's coming off an injury, right, which I think is the only knock I've heard on him. Does he even make it out of the top 10?

ChicagoPacer
03-25-2008, 09:24 PM
I like Love because as Seth mentioned he doesn't rely on being more athletic than the opposition to get his baskets, and I think this is something that won't go away at the next level. If we want to play an open court game, Love has Parish/Waltonesque outlet passing ability. Those are the last guys who play PF/C who have his kind of outlet passing ability. He has good range, a nice drop step on the block, and a fadeaway that a 19 year old has no business having. He just has great instinctive ability that translates well at any level.

He won't overwhelm you with athleticism, but he has 3 or 4 moves he can use on multiple points on the court to get his shot off. No one will fall in love with his defense, but it's reasonably reliable. He has good body position, deceptive body control, and instinctive court positioning that allow him to collect a lot of rebounds.

On the defensive end, he has the best defensive rebounding % of any player in a major conference. As a freshman. Better than Beasley. Better than DJ White is as a Senior. Better than any of Oden, Horford, or Noah last year.

http://www.kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=DRPct

On the offensive end, he is 7th in the country. Better than Dorsey as a Senior and last year's trio of Oden, Horford, and Noah.

http://www.kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=ORPct&y=2008

As an 8 to 10 pick, he looks like one of the better ones to me in the last 5 or 6 years. The odds of getting a game changing player at that position isn't as high as a lot of people seem to think. The only 8 to 10s that we've seen who have all-star ability in the last few years have been two guys out of high school: Bynum and Stoudemire. There were some better ones like Nowitzki, Marion, and Pierce about 10 years ago, but generally, this part of the draft is a crap shoot. I don't think he'll ever be as good as the guys I've mentioned, but he should be much better than your average 8 to 10.

CableKC
03-25-2008, 10:30 PM
If Walsh was still here....I could see him going for a guy like Jordan....merely for the potential.

But I can see Bird going for a player like Love. He just seems to be the type of player that Bird would draft. JO'Bs offense just seems to require that we have smart players.

Infinite MAN_force
03-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Considering that bird drafted williams, which was more of a "talent/potential" type pick than a "help now" pick. I don't see what the basis is to worry so much. The draft is one area where I am pretty happy with bird, I think shawne williams was a great find actually.

A lot of the players being discussed here are all ones that will probably be gone if we end up making the playoffs... has anyone looked into who is going in the mid teens? What about Ty Lawson from NC, he is projected to go in that range on one site. Any other prospects in that 14-17 range to be looking at?

Major Cold
03-25-2008, 11:41 PM
Lawson is augustin minus the jump shot.

Hicks
03-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Right now I hope we trade into a 2nd pick in the 1st round, and take Love and a PG.

Infinite MAN_force
03-26-2008, 12:18 AM
interesting that now both the major mocks have thabeet going between 15-20... interesting because I have heard a lot of people say they don't think he will drop out of the top 10.

Project or no, a center with that combo of size, speed in the open floor, and shot blocking ability I think would be wonderful to put in between our frontcourt duo of the future in granger and williams, who can provide plenty of scoring on their own. Another interesting tidbit about thabeet, he shoots 70% from the free throw line. For a big man who has only been playing organized b-ball for a few years, that is really impressive. There has to be some definite room to learn for the kid. I would take the chance on him at 15... probably earlier.

Kofi
03-26-2008, 12:36 AM
I'm still not entirely sold on Augustin, but watching Chris Paul tonight made me second guess myself. My biggest beef with D.J. is his size - 6', 180 lb. - yet slightly smaller Chris Paul is arguably the front runner for MVP in his third year in the league.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a wad, know that I'm not directly comparing Augustin to Paul. I'm using Paul's success as proof that a high skill-level can trump lack of size. Augustin's shooting percentages dropped as the season went on, but they were still fantastic for the first half of the season, and his entire freshman season as well. So for 3/4 of his college career, Augustin has shot good to very good percentages. That's good enough for me.

DGPR
03-26-2008, 03:47 AM
I'll take some DJ Augustin. Can't be any worse than what we have now.

d_c
03-26-2008, 05:21 AM
I'm still not entirely sold on Augustin, but watching Chris Paul tonight made me second guess myself. My biggest beef with D.J. is his size - 6', 180 lb. - yet slightly smaller Chris Paul is arguably the front runner for MVP in his third year in the league.


Chris Paul is "listed" at 6'1" and measured out at 5'11.75" w/o shoes at the combine (may have grown slightly).

Whether you want to "list" Augustin at 6' or 5'11", my guess is this guy measures out around 5'10" w/o shoes. I don't know for sure, I'm just using my eyes here and I don't think this guy is even as tall as Paul.

Will Galen
03-26-2008, 07:29 AM
Chris Paul is "listed" at 6'1" and measured out at 5'11.75" w/o shoes at the combine (may have grown slightly).

Whether you want to "list" Augustin at 6' or 5'11", my guess is this guy measures out around 5'10" w/o shoes. I don't know for sure, I'm just using my eyes here and I don't think this guy is even as tall as Paul.

Maybe you could do it. Rick Mount once knew the rim of a basket was bent down a quarter of an inch just by eyeballing it, so it's possible. However, I wouldn't think you could eyeball two different players, both around 6 foot, and know one was significantly taller than the other unless you saw them standing next to each other or you had stood next to the both of them.

Kofi
03-26-2008, 09:03 AM
Chris Paul is "listed" at 6'1" and measured out at 5'11.75" w/o shoes at the combine (may have grown slightly).

Whether you want to "list" Augustin at 6' or 5'11", my guess is this guy measures out around 5'10" w/o shoes. I don't know for sure, I'm just using my eyes here and I don't think this guy is even as tall as Paul.

Everything I've read has Paul measured at 6', 175, including his NBA.com bio. His outdated, pre-draft NBADraft.net bio has him listed at just 5'11". Augustin has been listed at 5'11" or 6', 180 lb. everywhere I've looked. I'm willing to bet he and Paul are close to identical in size.

Rajah Brown
03-26-2008, 09:47 AM
Augustine is big enough to function in today's NBA with the rules
on the perimeter as they are. Adding him to the existing mix would
leave the Pacers 2-3 more years of development of Williams as a
PF and a defense/rebounding oriented C away from being a pretty
damn, good ball club capable (given that both DET and BOS will be
aging rapidly by then) of competing in the EC for a shot at all the
marbles.

Jonathan
03-26-2008, 11:59 AM
Why isn't Joe Alexander from WVU not getting any draft hype?

Young
03-26-2008, 03:14 PM
What about Robin Lopez?

Probably not a lottery pick right now. I don't see the Pacers taking him. However I think he would be a first round pick.

Really could be a nice defender in the NBA. Could use more seasoning in college. Robin and Joe A, as someone mentioned above, are nice prospects that no one talks about.

Trader Joe
03-26-2008, 03:38 PM
R. Lopez probably will stay in college for one more year.

Will Galen
03-26-2008, 07:23 PM
I'd be interested in R. Lopez with our 2nd round pick. Right now Ford has him at 40 in his top 100.

Naptown_Seth
03-26-2008, 07:39 PM
R. Lopez probably will stay in college for one more year.
Yeah, I think this has been considered a certainty all year.

I like Augustin, but I think Bayless shows more potential to handle the rock like Paul. Augustin is steady, but not superstar potential as far as I can see. Obviously anyone can break out, but you don't draft him for that. You draft him because you know he will give you a steady PG, great is just a bonus.


WVU - honestly I just haven't watched them very closely.


IMF - I think Thabeet really faded his stock. He's been a one trick pony all year. Now early on I think the view was that he would progress, but he didn't really and now takes on the appearance of a serious project that has yet to show improvement.

But he has size and come draft night size counts for a lot.


Lawson to me is a "flat" dribbler, he handles the rock like he has smaller hands. I'm not saying that's why or that it can't change, but he just comes off as classic "college PG" where his speed is enough and he doesn't have to worry about seriously protecting his dribble.

Luckily we'll get another good look at him this weekend. I'm always open to being convinced on a different view.

jeffg-body
03-27-2008, 12:12 AM
IMO I think we should go after the best big available in the draft, whoever that is and work for some kind of trade to get that young PG from some team with little room for them to grow there. Jack and Lowry come to mind right now and could be good in the JOB system.

Kofi
03-27-2008, 05:56 AM
Augustin is steady, but not superstar potential as far as I can see.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have All-Star potential.

Rajah Brown
03-27-2008, 06:49 AM
The thing with Augustine with respect to his size is that it just
doesn't matter as much at PG in the NBA as it used to. If you
can consistently take your guy off the bounce, wether you're
5-11 or 6-3 is pretty much irrelevant. And on the other end,
how often do you see NBA PG's posting up (ala Mark Jackson
in his Pacers days) any more ?

Almost never. The rule changes have pretty much eliminated
it.

DGPR
03-27-2008, 07:12 AM
There is a good story on ESPN's site about Augustin right now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3310776&sportCat=ncb

Read it and tell me you don't want a guy like that in a Pacers uniform. Plus him and Granger are both Louisiana boys so I think that's a chemistry builder right there. I would be a happy man if we could pick DJ up in the draft.

esabyrn333
03-27-2008, 08:51 AM
There is a good story on ESPN's site about Augustin right now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3310776&sportCat=ncb

Read it and tell me you don't want a guy like that in a Pacers uniform. Plus him and Granger are both Louisiana boys so I think that's a chemistry builder right there. I would be a happy man if we could pick DJ up in the draft.


Your right, I think a kid like that would be a breath of fresh air for this team after years of Tinsley. I just got on the Augustin bandwagon. This is the type of charchter guys that can bring Indiana Pacers basketball back to where it should be.

Major Cold
03-27-2008, 11:03 AM
That doesn't mean he doesn't have All-Star potential.

It is pretty obvious that you are nit-picking everything Seth says to heighten your credibility in this forum.

Jonathan
03-27-2008, 11:11 AM
With a second round pick, I would love to see us draft Mike Green as a back-up pg. I realize this is a homer pick, but I think that he is going to be a solid NBA player...maybe never a starter, but he would be a humongous upgrade over our current backups. Regardless of whether we get a new starter in the draft, we need multiple pgs.

I was on the Mike Green band wagon untill his dismall performance against Tenn. He does not make free throws late in the game, loses his head (makes dumb fouls) & is not even 6'0 tall. I know he is listed at 6'1 with Graves but Graves is taller. I do not believe wasting a second round pick on a guy who will not be drafted.

PacerGuy
03-27-2008, 12:02 PM
You know what I would hate? For the Pacers to somehow get the 4th pick in the draft and have Beasley, Rose and Gordon, be the first three picks.

Haha! After thinking about that I realized I'm kidding myself, I'd love to have the 4th pick in the draft even if that happened.

Well we know that won't happen, as only the first 3 picks are truely "Lottery Picks", & after that (4-13) it is by record.
If we do not score a top 3, we will likely be picking from 8-11 (9-10 most likely, & where we are currently). Of the players projected there (Our projected pick highlighted):
K.Love/ D.Jordan (DraftExpress), R.Westbrook/ K.Love, (NBADraft.net), DJ.Augustine/ A.Randolph (InsideHoops), K.Love/ D.Jordan (HoopHype).
Now the K.Love thing intriguges me a bit, as he has raised 8-10 slots the last week+. I find it hard to believe scouts are seeing anything that different in 2 games then they did all year. Its not like he is from a smaller school & playing against top-talent for the first time. In no mocks does Gordon or Mayo fall below 8, & I can't see us finishing behind CHA, so I think 9 is the "best" we can do (currently 10).
I think it is wide-open who we take. We could go Big (C: Jordan/Hilbert; PF: Love/Randolf/Griffin) or small (Augustine/Collison). With those choices, & w/ the loss of Harrison (he's gone, we know it), the injuries (& possible trade) w/ JO, Murph providing no true interior help, & Foster a FA after n/y, I think unless Bird absolutely loves one of the PG's, we have to go BIG!

By the way: My first post here on the "Big Boards". Hello, & hope to get to know you all!
You can get to know my POV's a bit more in my rather lenghty New Member "From RealGM to Here...."post. Glad to be aboard!

Major Cold
03-27-2008, 12:25 PM
Well we know that won't happen, as only the first 3 picks are truely "Lottery Picks", & after that (4-13) it is by record.
If we do not score a top 3, we will likely be picking from 8-11 (9-10 most likely, & where we are currently). Of the players projected there (Our projected pick highlighted):
K.Love/ D.Jordan (DraftExpress), R.Westbrook/ K.Love, (NBADraft.net), DJ.Augustine/ A.Randolph (InsideHoops), K.Love/ D.Jordan (HoopHype).
Now the K.Love thing intriguges me a bit, as he has raised 8-10 slots the last week+. I find it hard to believe scouts are seeing anything that different in 2 games then they did all year. Its not like he is from a smaller school & playing against top-talent for the first time. In no mocks does Gordon or Mayo fall below 8, & I can't see us finishing behind CHA, so I think 9 is the "best" we can do (currently 10).
I think it is wide-open who we take. We could go Big (C: Jordan/Hilbert; PF: Love/Randolf/Griffin) or small (Augustine/Collison). With those choices, & w/ the loss of Harrison (he's gone, we know it), the injuries (& possible trade) w/ JO, Murph providing no true interior help, & Foster a FA after n/y, I think unless Bird absolutely loves one of the PG's, we have to go BIG!

By the way: My first post here on the "Big Boards". Hello, & hope to get to know you all!
You can get to know my POV's a bit more in my rather lenghty New Member "From RealGM to Here...."post. Glad to be aboard!

Glad to have you. Hope you make a big enough splash. Be consistent and dialogue will happen.

Kofi
03-27-2008, 12:39 PM
It is pretty obvious that you are nit-picking everything Seth says to heighten your credibility in this forum.

One needs only look back at my past claims to see my credibility is phenomenal. In fact, I'd argue my ability to evaluate talent is as good as any NBA scouts.

Speed
03-27-2008, 12:55 PM
Thing about Augustine, you get the feeling whatever his best is, he'll reach it.

Which is better a guy with a huge gigantic upside who won't ever realize it or a guy who will work to be the best he can be, but it might not be as high of a ceiling.

Reggie did the very most he could with his ability, many many other guys don't even get close.

Infinite MAN_force
03-27-2008, 01:27 PM
Mark Jackson was never a superstar either, but he filled his role on the team perfectly. Augustine is really starting to grow on me, and now since it looks like we won't be making the playoffs afterall, We might snag him.

Though I am still in love with Thabeet's potential... it would be nice to trade somewhere into the teens and pick him up, I wonder if Diogu could net us a pick like that...

Rajah Brown
03-27-2008, 02:11 PM
Infinite-

I would think that the 1st round picks of both Portland and
Phoenix (via ATL) will likely be available. Both should be in
the #13-16 range which would be about perfect to grab
either a 'big' or a PG (like Collison) depending on which
position is addressed w/ the Pacers own pick.

Wether Bird wants to add two rookies w/ guaranteed deals,
who knows.

Major Cold
03-27-2008, 02:59 PM
One needs only look back at my past claims to see my credibility is phenomenal. In fact, I'd argue my ability to evaluate talent is as good as any NBA scouts.

:bs:Wow!!! Arrogant much?!?! Saying your the best and being the best are two different things. You don't evaluate talent. You simply read other scouting reports and make a point based on others opinions. It is not your evaluation, it is someone else whom you are reporting. At least Seth watches the players himself. Get off your high horse.

Speed
03-27-2008, 04:08 PM
One needs only look back at my past claims to see my credibility is phenomenal. In fact, I'd argue my ability to evaluate talent is as good as any NBA scouts.

LOL, Mel Kiper Kofi Jr. I'll go out on a limb here that Beasley kid will be good. Da Smash, is that you?

Young
03-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Three questions for whoever.

We are all talking about the bigs and point guards. So do you think a swingman is out of the question?

Me, I think so. I think you have to take a big or a point guard. Maybe you can take a Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo or the Bayless kid but I look at the bigs and DJ.

The other question is do you think Larry Bird will stay away from swingmen and draft with need in mind?

Then there is a third question. To me in terms of the point guards it's only DJ. Collison is a nice late first-early second round pick. Same with Lawson. DJ should be a top 15 pick.

Here is my question regarding DJ. Would you take him, someone who to me is likely to be a very nice pro like Jameer Nelson, or would you take a Hasheem Thabeet or DeAndre Jordan big who are very talented but also very raw. I think this is a decision Bird will face. What would you do?

Major Cold
03-27-2008, 04:43 PM
I think Bird will address the needs. Which is everything except for a SF. Dunleavy should not be the fulltime starting SG on this team. We need a guy who can create his own shot and allow for players like Foster to crash boards. Having a Mayo/Gordon may open up current players strong points without having them be exploited on their weaknesses.

But the greater need is obvious. We need a PG. It has been this way for years. If DJ is gone and Collison is available? Then get Collison or a PG via trade or draft. Do not go into training camp with Tins and Diener as your PG options.

rexnom
03-27-2008, 05:52 PM
I think Mayo goes top 5 when it's all said and done. He is WAY too good to fall to us.

Naptown_Seth
03-27-2008, 06:09 PM
One needs only look back at my past claims to see my credibility is phenomenal. In fact, I'd argue my ability to evaluate talent is as good as any NBA scouts.
Join Date: Dec 2007

Um, I didn't even realize a pissing match was breaking out, but how can we know what your past claims on previous drafts were in order to recognize your talent evaluation?


I hate crap like this. I thought a group of us were just wanting to shoot the s*** about prospects and perhaps make a better effort to keep close tabs (at least in my case) than in the past since the team itself wasn't offering as much excitement lately.

But apparently it's a big audition to prove to the secret Pacers trolls that we deserve a paycheck?

Naptown_Seth
03-27-2008, 06:20 PM
For the real discussion...

Great chance to find out about C. Lee tonight. I'd expect him to see a good deal of Westbrook trying to guard him which is about as close as he'll come to facing an NBA caliber defender (not Weaver, but still).

So let's see how he fares in that situation, and see if he takes anything away from Shipp/Westbrook at the other end.


Speaking of Weaver - here's your chance to see him vs an elite team. He won't go against Psycho T but overall he will be presented with plenty of chances to show that he can stop or at least bother high caliber players (which he's already done before).


Love climbing - to me it's as simple as the latest ESPN piece. He's not a jumper, not quick, and has slight knee concerns, so it was just assumed he'd be nothing much. As a freshman how could scouts have any idea beyond that.

But since playing he just keeps making these really smart plays and showing an overall quality of play that suggests that he can maximize his talent and has awareness that's through the roof.

If Thabeet played like Love he'd be the #1 pick.


Clark vs Smith - Clark's stock remains good, though he never stands out when I watch L'ville. But Smith is slipping back. I like both but each seems like a risk of journeyman swing/big at this point. It will be nice to perhaps see them against each other at times if we get lucky.


And I'll keep a close eye on W Va this time. ;) :)


You know other than my bracket interests, I could care less who wins these games. I just want to see the prospects in action. I'm an NBA fan pretending to like college ball I guess. :D

esabyrn333
03-27-2008, 07:12 PM
Seth... I might have missed it but how do you feel about Augustine. Did you read the espn article about him & his mom posted earlier. I am growing more fond of him every day. Maybe it is because I am watching to much Chris Paul and want my own version. :-p

owl
03-27-2008, 07:27 PM
Three questions for whoever.

We are all talking about the bigs and point guards. So do you think a swingman is out of the question?

Me, I think so. I think you have to take a big or a point guard. Maybe you can take a Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo or the Bayless kid but I look at the bigs and DJ.

The other question is do you think Larry Bird will stay away from swingmen and draft with need in mind?

Then there is a third question. To me in terms of the point guards it's only DJ. Collison is a nice late first-early second round pick. Same with Lawson. DJ should be a top 15 pick.

Here is my question regarding DJ. Would you take him, someone who to me is likely to be a very nice pro like Jameer Nelson, or would you take a Hasheem Thabeet or DeAndre Jordan big who are very talented but also very raw. I think this is a decision Bird will face. What would you do?

A lot of it will depend on the players desire and commitment. No more head cases or
players that are not self motivated.

Without knowing any of the above the following players would head up my list based on where the Pacers will pick, probably number 10.

Love, Thabeet, Augustine, Stephen Curry?,Westbrook,McGee. I do not want Gordon for various reasons.
All the other guards will be gone at 10.

d_c
03-27-2008, 07:38 PM
Seth... I might have missed it but how do you feel about Augustine. Did you read the espn article about him & his mom posted earlier. I am growing more fond of him every day. Maybe it is because I am watching to much Chris Paul and want my own version. :-p

Paul is literally about a once in every 20 years PG. He's just that good. Augustin will have a place in the NBA, but he's probably going to be a lot closer to Jameer Nelson than Paul.

Hell, I bet if you were to pull up some of Nelson's numerous feel good articles from 2003/2004, you could probably substitute Augustin's name in for Nelson and they'd pretty much turn into the identical articles that we're now reading about Augustin.

indyman37
03-27-2008, 07:42 PM
now i don't watch a lot of college ball, hardly any in fact. but could someone do a quick sum up of a comparison between Love and Thabeet?

Coop
03-27-2008, 07:50 PM
Love: Unathletic but extremely smart and basketball savvy.

Thabeet: Extremely athletic but unintelligent.

indyman37
03-27-2008, 07:57 PM
Love: Unathletic but extremely smart and basketball savvy.

Thabeet: Extremely athletic but unintelligent.
Because LB has stated numerous times that he wants an exciting team, I'm guessing he 'd pick the second over the first and has Thabeet ranked higher than Love then.

LoneGranger33
03-27-2008, 08:02 PM
Naptime, what are your impressions of Boston College's own Tyrese Rice?

esabyrn333
03-27-2008, 08:03 PM
Paul is literally about a once in every 20 years PG. He's just that good. Augustin will have a place in the NBA, but he's probably going to be a lot closer to Jameer Nelson than Paul.

Hell, I bet if you were to pull up some of Nelson's numerous feel good articles from 2003/2004, you could probably substitute Augustin's name in for Nelson and they'd pretty much turn into the identical articles that we're now reading about Augustin.


I would be happy with a Nelson type player and know how special Paul is I personally could not believe he went 4th in the draft that year I would have jumped all over him if I was the Raptors. But you never know DJ may exploide on the seen in the NBA and I can dream he turns into the next CP3

d_c
03-27-2008, 08:11 PM
I would be happy with a Nelson type player and know how special Paul is I personally could not believe he went 4th in the draft that year I would have jumped all over him if I was the Raptors. But you never know DJ may exploide on the seen in the NBA and I can dream he turns into the next CP3

The Raptors I believe had the 7th and 16th picks and I'm sure they offered them both to move up to either #3 or #4 in the draft but were probably denied.

They were probably looking to get one of the elite PGs, but the teams already in position to get them were simply not going to pass up the oppurtunity.

I think Augustin will be a fine PG. Not in the Paul/Williams echelon, but he'll make some team happy.

Rajah Brown
03-27-2008, 09:31 PM
Paul slid to #4 because ATL was clueless and took Marvin Williams
instead at #2. Ya think that maybe Billy Knight would like to have
that one back.

d_c
03-27-2008, 09:41 PM
Paul slid to #4 because ATL was clueless and took Marvin Williams
instead at #2. Ya think that maybe Billy Knight would like to have
that one back.

That is very true, but then again, if they landed the #1 or 2 pick in this past draft, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. With Paul there, there would be no way they'd be bad enough for a shot at one of the top 2 picks.

Remember, Portland passed up on Paul and Williams too. They traded out of the #3 pick down to #6 to get Webster.

If Portland had Paul, no way do they get both Aldridge and Oden in subsequent drafts. They would have been too good. Instead of those two guys, they'd probably have something along the lines of Saer Sene and Al Thornton.

If Atlanta lucked out the way Portland did, then maybe they wouldn't be saying passing on Paul was a fatal mistake. Food for thought.

Will Galen
03-27-2008, 10:22 PM
Well we know that won't happen, as only the first 3 picks are truely "Lottery Picks", & after that (4-13) it is by record.
If we do not score a top 3, we will likely be picking from 8-11 (9-10 most likely, & where we are currently). Of the players projected there (Our projected pick highlighted):


When I posted about getting the 4th pick I was just moaning about how even if we had good luck, it would probably be the worst possible good luck. I know we can only move up to the top three.

However, after the way we let every point guard with a little speed drive the lane, I'm pretty happy with where we are likely to finish since we will probably have a shot at a quick point. (Augustin, Collison)

What I'd really like though is to get at least two lottery picks so we could pick a point and a center.

I sometimes play around with draft and trade scenarios just to see how it would improve our lineup. Early this morning I was playing around with this scenario.

It's rumored one of the reasons New Jersey wants JO is because his contract expires the same year Labron James' does. Thus NJ would be enough under the cap they could sign James. Plus we know James has friends there and wouldn't be adverse to moving to the big apple. (NJ is moving to Brooklyn)

NJ got two draft picks from Dallas in the Kidd trade. One this year which is lottery protected and another in 09 or 2010 depending on a bunch of if's.

So assuming Dallas isn't in this years lottery and NJ is, I think we could get at least one of those picks from them, maybe both depending on the trade.

Right now I think Atlanta is going to get the 8th playoff spot in the east unless the return of JO somehow gets us by them. Even then it doesn't matter that much since we will still be picking in the same vicinity. (10-15)

Say we trade JO and either Williams or Ike to NJ for Carter and Hassell, and their two first round picks. (Either trade works both this year and next)

We would then have 3 picks in the vicinity of 9-17. We could probably then draft Augustin, Love, and Thabeet. I'd love that draft!

Other possibilities are if Memphis gets the 2nd pick. I don't see them keeping it and drafting Rose, not with three young point guards already on the team. So it's possible we could trade NJ's picks to Memphis and draft Rose with their pick and Love with our pick. I'd love that draft too.

Yeah, 'SIGH' I know I'm dreaming! Neither of those scenario's is likely.

Anyway here's who I like with the picks we are likely to have or obtain. Dreams picks included.

Pick's 1-3, Rose, Bayless, and B. Lopez. I think if we got #1 we would trade it and still wind up with one of the three I named.

Pick's 9-14, Augustin, Love.

Picks 15-18, Thabeet, Collison.

Picks 39-45, Robin Lopez was in this vicinity, but Ford has moved him way up on his top 100. He might stay in school for another year if he doesn't move into the first round. I don't have any other favorites here.

We will probably wind up with picks 11 and 41. Why? Because that's a worse case scenario.

esabyrn333
03-27-2008, 10:37 PM
The Raptors I believe had the 7th and 16th picks and I'm sure they offered them both to move up to either #3 or #4 in the draft but were probably denied.

They were probably looking to get one of the elite PGs, but the teams already in position to get them were simply not going to pass up the oppurtunity.

I think Augustin will be a fine PG. Not in the Paul/Williams echelon, but he'll make some team happy.

I had the wrong draft the bucks had the #1 and took Bogut that year Raptors had the #1 the next year and got the Euro Belinelli.

aceace
03-27-2008, 11:07 PM
Who we take will largely depend on what happens before the draft, concerning JO,Williams and JT. I could see where we might trade Williams with JT (about 8M) for a shooting guard. It all depends on what we get back, and JO with his monster salary will change our entire team because we will most likely get up to 3 players back . I don't expect Rush , Graham or Owens back. Flip maybe.

Will Galen
03-27-2008, 11:14 PM
Who we take will largely depend on what happens before the draft, concerning JO,Williams and JT. I could see where we might trade Williams with JT (about 8M) for a shooting guard. It all depends on what we get back, and JO with his monster salary will change our entire team because we will most likely get up to 3 players back . I don't expect Rush , Graham or Owens back. Flip maybe.

If we trade JO to New Jersey we will get a shooting guard, Carter.

RomanGabriel
03-27-2008, 11:34 PM
So assuming Dallas isn't in this years lottery and NJ is, I think we could get at least one of those picks from them, maybe both depending on the trade.

As goofy as it sounds, Dallas actually has a pretty decent chance of falling to the lottery this year. Take a look at the West standings - especially factoring in that they'll be without Dirk for another week or two, the Mavs are almost out of the playoffs already. It doesn't look good for them.

Young
03-27-2008, 11:42 PM
I really still don't understand why we take on VC's contract. MAYBE if you can get a lottery pick from New Jersey, maybe then you do it.

CableKC
03-28-2008, 12:16 AM
If we trade JO to New Jersey we will get a shooting guard, Carter.
:suicide4:

I would hope that TPTB watched how horrible VC was in the 1st half and isn't enamored by his 2nd half performance with Shawne and Marquis guarding him with Granger sitting with his 5 fouls.

Will Galen
03-28-2008, 12:49 AM
:suicide4:

I would hope that TPTB watched how horrible VC was in the 1st half and isn't enamored by his 2nd half performance with Shawne and Marquis guarding him with Granger sitting with his 5 fouls.


I'm not enamored with Carter either and would rather keep JO than trade him for Carter. However, I could live with that trade if it included a first rounder or two. The one thing Carter would give us is a finisher. Plus he would be a lot easier to trade than JO.

Kraft
03-28-2008, 02:34 AM
Alright, who saw what happened to the UCLA offense once Collison fouled out tonight? I love the three-pass, no-dribble method to get the ball across halfcourt, but that was ... well, they should be glad WKU didn't know how to handle it. A more fundamental team would've made them bring it up every time and run the offense -- and the Bruins wouldn't have been able to do that very well without Collison.

Moving on ...

Honestly, if Bird picked a player like Thabeet over Love, it'd be like he turned on basketball. Love is everything you look for in a player except the physical attributes, and even those aren't that bad. I think we need a moratorium on stupid players -- no more Diogu, White, Tinsley, Harrison, etc., type players.

Why do basically all of us like Dunleavy and Foster? Because they really know how to play the game. They have limitations, both in talent and body, but we want to keep them around because they're smart.

I want more of those. Eventually, you'll get ones that are athletic, too.

Speed
03-28-2008, 07:48 AM
Love: Unathletic but extremely smart and basketball savvy.

Thabeet: Extremely athletic but unintelligent.


This is never a perfect way to judge them and its not a pure comparison, but

Love=Brad Miller

Thabeet=Theo Ratliffe

Thing that concerns you is I think Love is shorter than Brad so you wonder how it all computes at the next level. Thabeet has been invisible at times in college, you can tell his teammates don't trust him offensively with the ball, at all, unless its an alley oop dunk. I mean I really don't know, just my 2 cents.

Kofi
03-28-2008, 07:55 AM
I'd take Thabeet. Please forgive me for being skeptical of a short, fat PF.

DGPR
03-28-2008, 07:56 AM
So who do we like in the second round? We get a pretty early second round pick that could do some good. I vote for a guy like Demarcus Nelson from Duke. Or maybe a guy like Shan Foster.

Speed
03-28-2008, 10:13 AM
Second round, I like Joey Dorsey, reminds me shades of DD or the other guy who is a great rebounder who grabbed/hit Chris Kaman in the nuts, hard, whose name escapes me right now.

Dorsey jumped up the draft board though after his big game against Mississippi State where he had 13 pt 12 rebs, 6 blocks, and 5 fouls!!!

----
Edit: Reggie Evans is who I meant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFcinlrgojk&search=Reggie+Evan+Chris+Kaman+NBA+Clippers+Nugget s[/link

Rajah Brown
03-28-2008, 10:20 AM
Speed-

Dorsey is an interesting kid. When he shows up, he's a beast
inside. But to call him a head case doesn't do justice to the
term. His reputation for moodiness both on and off the court
(he's started at least one brawl in a Memphis nightclub) is
well established.

Given recent history, I doubt LB would touch him w/ a 10-foot
pole.

Speed
03-28-2008, 10:25 AM
Speed-

Dorsey is an interesting kid. When he shows up, he's a beast
inside. But to call him a head case doesn't do justice to the
term. His reputation for moodiness both on and off the court
(he's started at least one brawl in a Memphis nightclub) is
well established.

Given recent history, I doubt LB would touch him w/ a 10-foot
pole.


I had no idea, he's 24, too. I hadn't seen that before either. Thanks for the heads up.

PacerGuy
03-28-2008, 10:56 AM
Beyond the extra yr that Carter brings, (I think the 2nd is a t/o) & big $, let me ask:
What do you do w/ Mike D?
He is playing SG now & has shown he can play, & should start. You would have to move Danny to PF, & I think that is a mistake. I think he can play there in spots/ certain matchups & be affective, but not night-in night-out. Not only that, but you likely bury S.Williams even further - or he has to be moved. Personally, I like S.Williams & think he needs to have the presure of being "needed" & having "expectations" placed on him. I think he could surprise n/y if he commits 100% this summer, & accepts all that we place on him.

As far as Carter being easier to move? I'm not to sure. What JO has is a huge expiring at a perfect time! JO expires the same summer as L.James, D.Wade, C,Bosh & others. NJ, NY, & more will be drooling over the idea that they might be able to lure away one of these stars.

Another point on JO (& L.Bird) I listed in my newby "intro", but I will also sum up here is:
-W/ JO & Bird both having 2 yrs left on contracts after t/y, JO's fate (sucess/ trade value) will dictate Birds fate - given their "relationship", that's kinda ironic don't yo u think? In other words: This "Larry Bird Experiment" is now a 2 yr. venture!!! After that, we will know how Bird uses JO's value, & what that gives us. If things are not better by then, Bird is gone, & the team is 1 yr from having true cap flexibility (barring a Bird F-up w/ JO). This may likely be our best chance to "rebuild", if Bird can live w/ JO just 1 more yr (yr & 1/2). 2010 - That is when it will all come together, or it will explode entirely.
What does "explode" mean? It means, after 2 yrs, we should have a better cap situation, w/ JO up/ gone, & all the long term contracts (Dun/Murph/Tin) w/ only 1 yr left, the Pacers would be attractive to a new GM to step into if Bird doesn't work out (or for the Simon's, a good time to sell w/ no big payroll on the books!).

That is why I do not see us making ANY deals where we take back a player that expired past 2011! Again, Carter expires in 2013 (but again, I think 2013 is a t/o). Besides, does anyone here - realilistically - think JO will bring back 2 1'st rd. picks? I would throw in Ike if they would, but I think that's highly unlikely.

Major Cold
03-28-2008, 11:48 AM
Beyond the extra yr that Carter brings, (I think the 2nd is a t/o) & big $, let me ask:
What do you do w/ Mike D?
He is playing SG now & has shown he can play, & should start. You would have to move Danny to PF, & I think that is a mistake. I think he can play there in spots/ certain matchups & be affective, but not night-in night-out. Not only that, but you likely bury S.Williams even further - or he has to be moved. Personally, I like S.Williams & think he needs to have the presure of being "needed" & having "expectations" placed on him. I think he could surprise n/y if he commits 100% this summer, & accepts all that we place on him.

As far as Carter being easier to move? I'm not to sure. What JO has is a huge expiring at a perfect time! JO expires the same summer as L.James, D.Wade, C,Bosh & others. NJ, NY, & more will be drooling over the idea that they might be able to lure away one of these stars.

Another point on JO (& L.Bird) I listed in my newby "intro", but I will also sum up here is:
-W/ JO & Bird both having 2 yrs left on contracts after t/y, JO's fate (sucess/ trade value) will dictate Birds fate - given their "relationship", that's kinda ironic don't yo u think? In other words: This "Larry Bird Experiment" is now a 2 yr. venture!!! After that, we will know how Bird uses JO's value, & what that gives us. If things are not better by then, Bird is gone, & the team is 1 yr from having true cap flexibility (barring a Bird F-up w/ JO). This may likely be our best chance to "rebuild", if Bird can live w/ JO just 1 more yr (yr & 1/2). 2010 - That is when it will all come together, or it will explode entirely.
What does "explode" mean? It means, after 2 yrs, we should have a better cap situation, w/ JO up/ gone, & all the long term contracts (Dun/Murph/Tin) w/ only 1 yr left, the Pacers would be attractive to a new GM to step into if Bird doesn't work out (or for the Simon's, a good time to sell w/ no big payroll on the books!).

That is why I do not see us making ANY deals where we take back a player that expired past 2011! Again, Carter expires in 2013 (but again, I think 2013 is a t/o). Besides, does anyone here - realilistically - think JO will bring back 2 1'st rd. picks? I would throw in Ike if they would, but I think that's highly unlikely.

Great point!!! I think that Bird has a thinner line to walk on. I believe if the team is at this point next year, then Bird could be on the chopping block.


LOVE WAS THE REASON WHY UCLA HELD OFF WESTERN K!!!. The dude has the it factor.

Naptown_Seth
03-28-2008, 12:35 PM
Seth... I might have missed it but how do you feel about Augustine. Did you read the espn article about him & his mom posted earlier. I am growing more fond of him every day. Maybe it is because I am watching to much Chris Paul and want my own version. :-p
He's been one of my main targets since the start of the season, before I'd even heard of Love.

PG (IMO) - Rose, Bayless, Augustin...Mayo is a swing that could play PG, EJ is pure SG and way behind the others with handles

But I think Augustin is a notch below those other 2. He doesn't work the ball like Paul, doesn't have Deron's power either. I just brought up BJ Armstrong in another thread, and that's actually kinda the caliber guy I think he'll be.

That certainly helps, but don't expect the 1 hand cross-over between the legs that Paul just dropped on the Pacers.


Then Collison is the one other PG that I'd consider a "solution", another notch under Augustin because he likes his own dribble way too much. He'll make it, he might fix that and even be great, but for now you can't count on those "ifs".


Weaver I like ONLY as a defensive specialist PG. He can pass and score, he should make a team, but he doesn't have the consistant offensive ability that those other guys do. I don't like Lawson at all. Westbrook isn't even remotely like a PG. Price showed too many problems the final month and is mid-2nd round to me.

Jonathan
03-28-2008, 12:37 PM
I like Lester Hudson

We should be able to trade IKE for a late first round draft choice and this guy will be immediately help for our DEFENSE.

Jonathan
03-28-2008, 12:39 PM
So who do we like in the second round? We get a pretty early second round pick that could do some good. I vote for a guy like Demarcus Nelson from Duke. Or maybe a guy like Shan Foster.

I would love to snag Courtney Lee

Naptown_Seth
03-28-2008, 12:58 PM
The games, haven't watched L'ville/TN yet, its on Tivo.

NC vs Wash St
T'Hans is fine, but something of a static player by NBA standards. By NCAA standards the entire team is athletic but to me they all seem like classic "great college, meh pros". Clearly they were better athletes than every WSU player other than Weaver.

Weaver - he showed you his game. He can be an impact offensive player, but he also fades or makes mistakes. He doesn't flop on offense, but it's not what puts him in the NBA and why he isn't a starter.

But on defense you saw on play 1 what he brings. T'Hans gets the offensive rebound on the quick tip win, and Weaver is the one who ties him up for a jump ball and gives it to WSU. He also fights for rebounds like a madman by PG standards. He blocks shots, he steals, he gets after it.

It makes me sick thinking a team like Detroit might add him as just the kind of tweek they could use. He'll never make it to round 2.

W KY vs UCLA
Love - it's all been said. Smartest player on the court, hit 2 different outlets (off a made shot no less) to guys at the OTHER 3pt line. 2 hands, dead on the money. I mean the count of those passes he's made this year has to be 50+. Every game, seriously.

He is INSTANT FASTBREAK and he doesn't even have to leave the baseline to do it.

Collison - good to see an example where he wasn't scoring at will. This was a better picture of his game. Solid defender, decent PG but not great, quick but not strong, meh court vision. At 15-18 I like him as a pick. I just take Love before him.


Westbrook vs Lee. Lee has made an impact on me seeing them head to head. I love Westbrook as a possible pro but to me Lee was clearly superior as an NBA prospect.

I had viewed Lee like Rush, but he is better than Rush. Maybe not smarter, but not enough to matter anyway. Of those 3 I take Lee happily right now. If he's your double dip with Love/Augustin/Lopez/etc then you have to trade into that chance.

He's slasher smooth, comes off curls well, goes very smoothly off dribble into his jumper, and shows a solid defensive game.

I realize that in the end Lee didn't have a great FG% evening, but a big part of that was the team behind him.

3 blocks, 8 boards, and Westbrook ended up 3-15, I'd say Lee made a strong point. And for Westbrook you like the rebounds but as I've said all along, that's what he does. He's energy, jumping, making plays when it gets scrappy. You like that, but it does describe the Fred Jones game. If Westbrook if Fred then to me Lee looks like Jalen Rose. So I take Lee.

I had slept on Lee most of the year even though he'd been projected to the Pacers early on. That was a mistake.

I would love to snag Courtney LeeObviously I agree.

Reason 109 why Westbrook is not a PG - his horrible post feed to Love where he tried to go soft over the top of the fronting defender, which the defender easily reached for the steal. Running point is not his thing, passing to Shipp on a turnover break is his thing (which is great, just not PG material).

Brazelton vs Collison - this is a reason I also worry about Collison, he gambles and can be lit up like this. And his size doesn't discourage outside jumpers. I recall a few times Braz just stopped and rose up on him.


Xavier vs West VA
Only interest was Alexander since I hadn't really watched him. No doubt he's got a few quick moves to him, not half bad, but right now he still looks like 2nd round fodder to me. He should stay another year and raise his stock, which I think he could. Right now as a 6'8" guy he looks quick at PF, but not quick enough for an NBA SF.

Naptown_Seth
03-28-2008, 01:10 PM
Naptime, what are your impressions of Boston College's own Tyrese Rice?
Didn't really watch him. I've heard you or others mention him a bit.

Contrary to all my posting (which is standard for me), I certainly don't have a line on every guy. I'm in here for the same reason you are, to find out about guys and get pointed in the right direction. I'll take this question as "hey, maybe get your head out of your rear and go YouTube him". :)

Too late to see them live now. Maybe ESPN has a game or two still available? I'll have to see.



BTW, teams still in play besides Final Fours: NIT has FLA, Ohio St, U Miss and U Mass. CBI has: Bradley vs Tulsa, 3 game champ series.

Anyone to really look at in that mix?

CableKC
03-28-2008, 01:14 PM
With all these upsets in the NCAA tournament....I can see alot of top prospects slip a few spots with some GM taking a risk on some Players that shine in the Tournament. Thabeet has dropped a few spots due to his lackluster performance whereas players like Robin Lopez and Joe Alexander have popped up out of nowhere.

I think that there may even be some decent prospects that drop to the 2nd round.

Kofi
03-28-2008, 02:44 PM
Didn't really watch him. I've heard you or others mention him a bit.

Contrary to all my posting (which is standard for me), I certainly don't have a line on every guy. I'm in here for the same reason you are, to find out about guys and get pointed in the right direction. I'll take this question as "hey, maybe get your head out of your rear and go YouTube him". :)

Too late to see them live now. Maybe ESPN has a game or two still available? I'll have to see.



BTW, teams still in play besides Final Fours: NIT has FLA, Ohio St, U Miss and U Mass. CBI has: Bradley vs Tulsa, 3 game champ series.

Anyone to really look at in that mix?

Marreese Speights, PF/C, Florida

#13 in 2008, ESPN
#21 in 2008, NBADraft.net
#4 in 2009, Draft Express

:dance:

Major Cold
03-28-2008, 03:30 PM
Kofi is right on about Speights. I have only seen one game. He is intriging. He played well for most of the season but since the Gators failed to make the tourney his exposure has limited his draft status. Have not followed him in the tourney. But his number look good:

14 pts (6 0f 9) 10 reb in 30 min against ASU

He played very well behind Noah, Horford, and Richard. Many expected him to be the number one prospect in the SEC. But when Florida struggled, so did people's perception of Marrese.

I think he will be an excellent prospect. I would rather see TPTP to gamble on this guy rather than Westbrook, Thabeet, or Jordan. His TO ratio went down from his freshman year even with more minutes played. I think if is staying for one more year.

This years numbers
24.5 Mins
14.5 PPG
63% FG
70% FT
7.8 RPG
1.4 BPG

I think one more year playing at 30 mpg would raise his draft stock. He is a PF all the way 6'10" 245. Right now I see him being the dark horse if he declares.

RomanGabriel
03-28-2008, 06:25 PM
At the risk of blasphmening?, I'm sorry, but the more I see of Kevin Love the more I see (gulp) Larry Bird. There, I said it. The same size, same athleticism, same court awareness, same passing skill, not quite the same shooting skill (but who else does?). This guy is a stud. He's proven himself against all comers in the best conference and the pressure of the tournament. Was Bird this good as a freshman? I think Seth nailed it when he pointed out that Love has great skills (scoops, head fakes, positioning) that don't require someone who can jump through the roof. Remember, there's loads and loads of tremendous athletes who don't have a clue how to play basketball. At this point it's looking like our #10 pick may very well come down to Love vs. Augustin. Methinks we couldn't go wrong with either one.

Rajah Brown
03-28-2008, 06:32 PM
Just for fun I'll toss this out. What if Memphis ends up with
#1 or #2 and, with the intention of taking Rose, puts Conley
on the trading block ? If the Pacers pick at #9-12 would get
it done, would you do it ?

Rajah Brown
03-28-2008, 06:37 PM
RG-

Granted, he's just a young kid, but I'm not sure Love has quite
the agility that Bird had. I haven't seen alot of UCLA, but I've
seen some of 4-5 games and I don't recall seeing Love show
the kind of passing ability on the move, at close to full speed,
that Bird had.

No question though, his 'feel' for the game is Bird-esque.

Naptown_Seth
03-28-2008, 06:41 PM
Thanks Kofi, seriously. It's more fun getting along. IMO there is just no way to keep track of all these guys.
Gotta figure this factors into into whether he comes out or not.

#21 in 2008, NBADraft.net
#4 in 2009, Draft Express
You know back to Love, but actually in a bigger sense. He's getting tons of praise and his stock is up. So is the stock of lots of other guys.

So here comes some top 15 picks and you know these guys are going to make that list...but you also know that 6-7 just aren't going to pan out.

Unless GMs just totally blow it on guys I like, I'm 100% going to be wrong on at least 5-6 of these top players. So are the rest of us. How can that be?

I mean I get that Love isn't super athlete, that Augustin isn't Paul or that Rose has some rough spots to iron out. But damn, if they flop it's still going to be a "what happened" for a lot of people.

I try to look at guys like that, in that view that I know he is going to bust and think about what it was that we all should have seen, but even then it's tough to see.

Of course if you figure that out then you are getting a call from a team owner about a scouting job, hopefully you hold out for a job with the Pacers. :)


Also agree that Love is no in motion passer. He's also not your go-to scorer. Way back a month or two ago my first impressions posted was that he is most like KEVIN MCHALE. McHale was not the athlete that Bird even was, he just gimmicked his way into things with little gym moves like up and unders, crap like that. Stuff that you at first dismiss, but then night after night it's getting points, getting stats and helping you win and you think "how the F did that happen".

But even if they did get Love and he did pan out to be what you might expect, they are still badly going to also need a Rose/Bayless type, and a shooter too. This sure doesn't seem like the last draft we are going to have to watch closely.

Trader Joe
03-28-2008, 07:02 PM
Just for fun I'll toss this out. What if Memphis ends up with
#1 or #2 and, with the intention of taking Rose, puts Conley
on the trading block ? If the Pacers pick at #9-12 would get
it done, would you do it ?

Memphis is pretty content with Conley from what I've read. I think they would either go with Beasley at one or maybe even reach and take Brook Lopez at two. Plus they could always trade the pick.

d_c
03-28-2008, 07:17 PM
Speed-

Dorsey is an interesting kid. When he shows up, he's a beast
inside. But to call him a head case doesn't do justice to the
term. His reputation for moodiness both on and off the court
(he's started at least one brawl in a Memphis nightclub) is
well established.

Given recent history, I doubt LB would touch him w/ a 10-foot
pole.

Keep in mind also that Dorsey will be 25 years old by the time the next all-star break roles around. He's already been physically mature for awhile and he's just been bullying around less developed guys for years now.

He's a big body and that's about it. Not really highly skilled and given his age, he's sort of close to his ceiling already. Somebody will probably spend a 2nd round pick on him.

owl
03-28-2008, 08:48 PM
After watching Stephen Curry he is a star. He is a shorter version of Reggie.
Can pass on the fast break and score from anywhere. The question at 6'3"
is can he be a SG or does he have PG skills

Augustin looks very good also. Powerful and with good court awareness.

That leaves Love and Thabeet.

Thabeet, Love and Augustin or Curry!!!

Get it done Bird.

Anthem
03-28-2008, 09:04 PM
At the risk of blasphmening?, I'm sorry, but the more I see of Kevin Love the more I see (gulp) Larry Bird. There, I said it. The same size, same athleticism, same court awareness, same passing skill...
The same skin color...

Why does every white guy get compared to Larry Bird?

Larry was one of the 2 best guys in college ball when he came out. Love is nowhere near that.

esabyrn333
03-28-2008, 09:16 PM
After watching Stephen Curry he is a star. He is a shorter version of Reggie.
Can pass on the fast break and score from anywhere. The question at 6'3"
is can he be a SG or does he have PG skills

Augustin looks very good also. Powerful and with good court awareness.

That leaves Love and Thabeet.

Thabeet, Love and Augustin or Curry!!!

Get it done Bird.


nbadraft.net has curry listed at 6' 1" not 6' 3"

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/stephencurry.html

d_c
03-28-2008, 09:26 PM
The same skin color...

Why does every white guy get compared to Larry Bird?



Because it's just not as cool to get compared to the Jeff Hornaceks and Kiki Vandeweghes of the world.

Barkley addressed the same issue once on TNT. He asked the exact same question: Why does every white guy (Laettner, Gugliotta, Van Horn, Dunleavy) get compared to Larry Bird? He said that the only thing Bird and Laettner had in comman was that they were both white. That's it.

Love is nice prospect and I think he'll do well in the NBA. His shooting, rebounding, passing and court vision are all very good but nowhere near as good as Bird's.

d_c
03-28-2008, 09:32 PM
After watching Stephen Curry he is a star.

He's definitely a star in college, yes. In the NBA, he's probably a 7th/8th man but he'll have a place in the league.

owl
03-28-2008, 09:33 PM
nbadraft.net has curry listed at 6' 1" not 6' 3"

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/stephencurry.html


The Davidson site has him listed at 6'3". He looks to be that tall.

The guy could play point I believe.

I would look real hard at him.

mrknowname
03-28-2008, 09:34 PM
Because it's just not as cool to get compared to the Jeff Hornaceks and Kiki Vandeweghes of the world.

Barkley addressed the same issue once on TNT. He asked the exact same question: Why does every white guy (Laettner, Gugliotta, Van Horn, Dunleavy) get compared to Larry Bird? He said that the only thing Bird and Laettner had in comman was that they were both white. That's it.

Love is nice prospect and I think he'll do well in the NBA. His shooting, rebounding, passing and court vision are all very good but nowhere near as good as Bird's.


kevin love is a PF though, bird was a SF which probably explains why bird is better at those three. i'd say kevin love is more like mchale like Seth said

Young
03-28-2008, 09:35 PM
Because it's just not as cool to get compared to the Jeff Hornaceks and Kiki Vandeweghes of the world.

Barkley addressed the same issue once on TNT. He asked the exact same question: Why does every white guy (Laettner, Gugliotta, Van Horn, Dunleavy) get compared to Larry Bird? He said that the only thing Bird and Laettner had in comman was that they were both white. That's it.

Love is nice prospect and I think he'll do well in the NBA. His shooting, rebounding, passing and court vision are all very good but nowhere near as good as Bird's.

Yeah Love is not Bird for sure. If anyone wants to compare Love to any white guy I think a less athletic Nick Collison is the right comparrison.

owl
03-28-2008, 09:36 PM
He's definitely a star in college, yes. In the NBA, he's probably a 7th/8th man but he'll have a place in the league.

I believe there is something more than that in his future. He has that special "something"
you can't quite put your finger on.

d_c
03-28-2008, 09:40 PM
kevin love is a PF though, bird was a SF which probably explains why bird is better at those three. i'd say kevin love is more like mchale like Seth said

McHale is a couple inches taller and a lot longer than Love. He's also one of the best low post players (offensively and defensively) to ever play the game. The guy redefined low post play in the NBA. Love isn't quite there.

But the guy is definitely a throwback and there's now a pretty good chance he'll be gone when the Pacers pick.

esabyrn333
03-28-2008, 09:43 PM
I believe there is something more than that in his future. He has that special "something"
you can't quite put your finger on.


I think he is going to be like his dad a sharp shooter that comes off the bench. I like the guy but I don't see him being much more than a 3 point specialist.

d_c
03-28-2008, 09:49 PM
I believe there is something more than that in his future. He has that special "something"
you can't quite put your finger on.

Well he needs to have something special that we can't see, because right now he's a 6'2"-6'3" SG who isn't particularly strong, fast or athletic by NBA standards. I just can't name anyone like that in the league who truly excelled in the NBA.

Hersey Hawkins is one guy, but that dude was built like a tank compared to Curry, and he was more athletic coming out of college than Curry is now.

Reggie was 6'6"-6'7". He could get his shot off over the top of most of his defenders rather easily. That was important. If you took away that attribute, Reggie wouldn't have been anywhere near the player he turned out to be.

I don't mean to rain on the guy's parade, but I'd have to say the odds of him being more than a role player off the bench are stacked against him. Still, he's probably going to get drafted and he'll have a place in the league and that's a major accomplishment.

RomanGabriel
03-28-2008, 10:17 PM
The same skin color...

Why does every white guy get compared to Larry Bird?

Larry was one of the 2 best guys in college ball when he came out. Love is nowhere near that.

Hold on now. Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought Love was as good as LB. I was talking about his game, specifically as an underclassman. I'm Bird's age and saw him up close in college and I'm here to tell you that what I've seen of Love as a 19 year old reminds me an awful lot of LB's game. Remember, when LB was 19 he was getting his *** kicked trying to scrimmage with IU's team in his brief Bloomington stint. I fully recognize that there's no chance Love has the career that LB had, but his game looks very similar at this point. And knock off the good white player/must be Bird stuff. When I watch Love play it simply doesn't put me in the mind of a Dominique Wilkins, Harold Miner, Clyde Drexler, or a Darnell Hillman for that matter. And Love's uncle is a helluva lot better singer than Bird's uncle!

Rajah Brown
03-28-2008, 10:36 PM
d_c-

Steve Kerr would be one. Of course, he was kind of a quasi-situational
guy. As with Kerr, Curry would need to be playing with the right guys
to prosper at the NBA level. But when you can stroke it, you can
stroke it.

Indy-

Was half kidding on the Conley thing. Agree that MEM would likely
either take Beasley if there or move down a bit and take Lopez.

Relatedly, at this point, I'm concerned that with CHIC likely to be
picking ahead of the Pacers and in need of a 'pure' PG (Hinrich may
well be moved this Summer), they could snatch Augustine before he
gets to us.

croz24
03-28-2008, 10:58 PM
Hold on now. Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought Love was as good as LB. I was talking about his game, specifically as an underclassman. I'm Bird's age and saw him up close in college and I'm here to tell you that what I've seen of Love as a 19 year old reminds me an awful lot of LB's game. Remember, when LB was 19 he was getting his *** kicked trying to scrimmage with IU's team in his brief Bloomington stint. I fully recognize that there's no chance Love has the career that LB had, but his game looks very similar at this point. And knock off the good white player/must be Bird stuff. When I watch Love play it simply doesn't put me in the mind of a Dominique Wilkins, Harold Miner, Clyde Drexler, or a Darnell Hillman for that matter. And Love's uncle is a helluva lot better singer than Bird's uncle!

ummhow exactly are love and bird's games similar??? would you then say bird and brad miller's games are similar? b/c at thispoint love is MUCH closer to a shorter version of miller than a larry bird. MUCH closer...

CableKC
03-29-2008, 12:30 AM
Relatedly, at this point, I'm concerned that with CHIC likely to be picking ahead of the Pacers and in need of a 'pure' PG (Hinrich may well be moved this Summer), they could snatch Augustine before he gets to us.
I know that we need a PG....but if the Pacers don't make the Playoffs and we end up with a 9th to 11th pick....am I the only one that thinks that Augustine or Collison would be a little high to draft them?

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 01:23 AM
Yeah Love doesn't remind me of Bird AT ALL.

Will Galen
03-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Yeah Love doesn't remind me of Bird AT ALL.

More like Bill Walton with his outlet passing.

DGPR
03-29-2008, 07:22 AM
Augustin's stat line against the Lopez brothers:

23 points
7 assists
5 rebounds
2 steals

Kofi
03-29-2008, 07:51 AM
Augustin is shooting up my list. Great play, and that article from ESPN was very flattering towards his character. At this point I'd take him over Gordon and I'd even consider taking him before Mayo. He may not be Chris Paul, but who is? What I've seen is that he's skilled enough to be a starter as a rookie, and he's young enough to still have untapped potential.

Rajah Brown
03-29-2008, 08:21 AM
Kofi-

Agreed on Augustine. He's a very skilled, instinctive PG on the
offensive end. He's not a great athlete. But he's very quick
and changes direction with the ball on a string in tight spaces
extremely well.

The matchup with Memphis on Sunday should be fun to watch
as they've the perimeter athletes to make things tough on him.

Major Cold
03-29-2008, 11:24 AM
Augustine versus Rose. Matchup of the tourney so far.

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 02:02 PM
D.J. Augustin is my number 1 choice for us now. That ESPN article on his character was something else.

Infinite MAN_force
03-29-2008, 02:39 PM
If we could find some way to trade into another pick and grab Augustin and Thabeet, we may be able to establish our starting lineup of the future pretty quick, assuming williams could play the 4 (and that the picks pan out of course, especially thabeet).

DGPR
03-29-2008, 04:19 PM
If we could get Augustin and Thabeet in the first round, I would consider the draft a big success for us.

indyman37
03-29-2008, 05:47 PM
If we could get Augustin and Thabeet in the first round, I would consider the draft a big success for us.
I would actually be excited about the future of the team.

FireMan
03-29-2008, 06:05 PM
We dont get many ncaa broadcasts here in europe, so im a bit lost when it comes to players from collage. I watched Xavier-West Virginia couple of nights ago, and I was really impressed with Josh Duncan. He is a strong pf who has a nice outside game, but also can overpower his defender. He is only 6-9 though which might come in the way of playing in the NBA. What is his value? Is he considered a 1st rond or 2nd round material? Is he declaring for the draft this year? Would pacers be interested in him?

Kofi
03-29-2008, 06:11 PM
We dont get many ncaa broadcasts here in europe, so im a bit lost when it comes to players from collage. I watched Xavier-West Virginia couple of nights ago, and I was really impressed with Josh Duncan. He is a strong pf who has a nice outside game, but also can overpower his defender. He is only 6-9 though which might come in the way of playing in the NBA. What is his value? Is he considered a 1st rond or 2nd round material? Is he declaring for the draft this year? Would pacers be interested in him?

Read HERE (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=776003)

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 06:25 PM
I don't see the West comparison other than having similar body types. West always had that great mid-range jumper which makes him such a pain in the butt to guard. His offensive game was more refined than Duncan's IMO, but I do think Duncan is a little bit stronger than West was at the same point in their careers so it could happen.
Duncan is a solid player and is probably worth a look in the second round. I definetely think he can find a place in the NBA, but I'm just not sure what type of a role he'd play yet. His matchup with Love should be interesting tonight.

CableKC
03-29-2008, 06:31 PM
I've mentioned this before....but I really think that IF Love is on the board when we draft.....I can totally see Bird picking him. I can't figure out how else to say it.....but he just seems like the type of player that Bird would draft....he has definite potential....he has shown that he can perform under pressure to help carry his team to the Elite 8....he has alot of talent....he has a high basketball IQ....and most of all, he's a safe PR pick that doesn't appear to have any on/off court issues.

Infinite MAN_force
03-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Alright, who saw what happened to the UCLA offense once Collison fouled out tonight? I love the three-pass, no-dribble method to get the ball across halfcourt, but that was ... well, they should be glad WKU didn't know how to handle it. A more fundamental team would've made them bring it up every time and run the offense -- and the Bruins wouldn't have been able to do that very well without Collison.

Moving on ...

Honestly, if Bird picked a player like Thabeet over Love, it'd be like he turned on basketball. Love is everything you look for in a player except the physical attributes, and even those aren't that bad. I think we need a moratorium on stupid players -- no more Diogu, White, Tinsley, Harrison, etc., type players.

Why do basically all of us like Dunleavy and Foster? Because they really know how to play the game. They have limitations, both in talent and body, but we want to keep them around because they're smart.

I want more of those. Eventually, you'll get ones that are athletic, too.

I totally disagree. Our team is overloaded with unathletic "fundamentals" type of guys. Why do you think our defense sucks? Its not an issue of effort. I think Love would be an aweful pick for us because for one thing, we already have an unathletic fundamentally sound power forward named Troy Murphy, and he has much better size than love anyway. Love is a rendundant pick and will not help us much at all IMO. and we know murphy is going to be around for awhile...

Love is a qaulity role player on the next level, at best.

We need a defensive presence in the paint. Also, calling Thabeet "stupid" is a gross oversimplification. He has not been playing organized basketball very long at all... he is a project. Sure, there is no gaurentee that he works out, but that goes for everyone. The guy is already a stellar shot blocker, and for such a raw prospect, he shoots 70% from the foul line... I think this is a good indication that he has a lot of potential to improve in all areas.

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 08:17 PM
Duncan is not very impressive so far.

JayRedd
03-29-2008, 08:20 PM
Why aren't we talking about Westbrook at all? He's pretty much exactly what we need.

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I'm not sure people would like D. Collison nearly as much if he didn't play for UCLA. His teammates bail him out quite a bit.

JayRedd
03-29-2008, 08:26 PM
I'm not sure people would like D. Collison nearly as much if he didn't play for UCLA. His teammates bail him out quite a bit.

Yeah...He's fairly flawed now that I'm paying more attention.

Trader Joe
03-29-2008, 08:33 PM
Yeah...He's fairly flawed now that I'm paying more attention.

Saying he overdribbles is a vast understatement. Its like the ball must stay with him for at least 20 seconds before he can pass it.

owl
03-29-2008, 08:35 PM
Love, Thabeet, Augustin are players to look at.

Did anyone see Love doing his flick shots from half and full court and hitting them?
He is a unique talent. Good shooter, reobunder and passer. His defense is average.

esabyrn333
03-29-2008, 09:36 PM
I think Augustine should be priorty number one if we could get a second pick I would think we would want any of these guys...in this order
A large atheletic defensive center that is good at running the floor


Jordan
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/deandrejordan.html
Thabeet
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/hasheemthabeet.html
McGee
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/javalemcgee.html

mrknowname
03-29-2008, 10:12 PM
Why aren't we talking about Westbrook at all? He's pretty much exactly what we need.


i'm pretty sure Kofi has been the driver of his bandwagon

DGPR
03-30-2008, 06:39 AM
I like Russell Westbrook too. Lets hope when it's time to pick LB makes the right decision.

Kofi
03-30-2008, 07:39 AM
I've seen Westbrook compared to Fred Jones, but least we forget Fred Jones was aprojected as a second rounder and only went #14 because of Isiah's man-crush on him. Westbrook is being projected as a lottery pick. He's considered a far better prospect at this point than Fred Jones was. He's just as athletic, but taller/longer with arguably more skill at the same age. He's more in the mold of Monta Ellis than Fred Jones.

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 07:41 AM
Have any of you guys seen JaVale McGee from Nevada play ? He's
a 7-0 kid who's way under the radar for the average fan. I read a
quote or two from an NBA scout somewhere recently where the
guy said he'd be the best big in this draft in 3-4 yrs.

Anyway, he just declared and chose an agent (Eugene Parker)
so he's in. I've never seen him live, but he has a clip on youtube
that's pretty impressive. Any one seen him live or have any
opinion ?

He could be a big to take in the #14-#15 area if we end up there
or a guy to grab with a second 1st in the #14-20 zone that we
aquire if we take a PG or SG earlier.

Justin Tyme
03-30-2008, 08:11 AM
The comparisons of Love and Bird are only valid if you compare them as freshmen in college. Trying to compare Love as a freshmen to Bird in his last year of college or as a pro is not fair.

I liked what I saw of Love in last night's game, but I have to agree with the poster who said we already have Murphy and his contract for years to come.:cry:

I want a player or players who can or will play perimeter defense. We have lacked this for the last 2 years, and I don't want to go for year 3. If a PG player is the position picked, then it absolutely has to be a player that can play defense. I'm tired of watching the opposing teams players constantly penetrating and dishing or taking it to the rack. IMO this is the biggest problem the Pacers have, not the only one, and is the top priority to be addressed either thru the draft or by a trade.

Mourning
03-30-2008, 08:35 AM
I would say that with our first rounder we take the best talent available and if equal a big or a point. For our second rounder I would definitely prefer to get the best perimeter defender still in it.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Will Galen
03-30-2008, 08:46 AM
Have any of you guys seen JaVale McGee from Nevada play ? He's
a 7-0 kid who's way under the radar for the average fan. I read a
quote or two from an NBA scout somewhere recently where the
guy said he'd be the best big in this draft in 3-4 yrs.

Anyway, he just declared and chose an agent (Eugene Parker)
so he's in. I've never seen him live, but he has a clip on youtube
that's pretty impressive. Any one seen him live or have any
opinion ?

He could be a big to take in the #14-#15 area if we end up there
or a guy to grab with a second 1st in the #14-20 zone that we
aquire if we take a PG or SG earlier.


From Ford's top 100; http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19227&draftyear=2008

JaVale McGee
Center (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/position?id=9&draftyear=2008) (Rank: #28) | 7-0, 237 | Age: 20
Nevada (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/school?id=2440&draftyear=2008) (Sophomore)
Hometown: Flint, Michigan
Draft Projection: Late first to early second

Notes:His father, George Montgomery, was drafted by the Blazers
in the second round of the 1985 NBA Draft. His mother, Pamela McGee, played and coached in the WNBA.

Positives: Athletic big man with an excellent face the basket game. Long arms and explosive leaping ability make him an excellent shot-blocker and a good rebounder. Is developing a low-post game, but is still very raw. Has a reliable midrange jump shot and even some college 3-point range. Has the ability to create his own shot off the dribble. Good motor for a big man. Could be a 4 or a 5 in the league.

Negatives: Still developing, especially as a low-post player on the offensive end. Needs to add strength and weight, though it looks like he has the frame to do it. Poor free throw shooter.

Summary: Scouts are starting to buzz on McGee. He's still a year or two away from being ready for the NBA, but his improvement this season has been dramatic. If he continues to develop he could be a lottery pick in the 2009 NBA draft. If he were to enter the draft this year, he'd likely be a late first rounder.
----------------------------

He'll probably stay in school this draft. With his lineage he should be a smart player!

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 08:47 AM
The only similarity between Love and Murphy is that both are
big, white guys. Murph has essentially no post-up, back to the
basket game whatsoever. Love, while smaller at 6-9, already
has a terrific post game with passing instincts superior to many
guys who've been in the NBA for years (cough**J.O.***cough).

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 08:50 AM
Will-

Tks. Noticed that NBADraft.net has him pegged in the mid-teens
and draftexpress has an extensive profile. As with any big with
a 'big upside', he'll probably go higher than he should. Ford
probably underestimates where he'll ultimately go in his
summary.

owl
03-30-2008, 09:14 AM
I would really like to see the Pacers get 2 picks in the top 15. The Pacers need defense so badly.
If Thabeet is a dedicated player that is who I would pick. However McGhee or Love or Augustin
would be great also. I know some on here love Westbrook but that is an area of least need.
He would have to be obviously superior at his position to justify picking him.
Is Hansborugh coming out this year and if so where would he be picked? Late first?

JayRedd
03-30-2008, 12:06 PM
Also, Love/Bird is silly.

Bird was a perimeter-playing SF and Love is a paint-playing PF. Sure Bird was adept in the post and Love can hit the outside shot, but they play fundamentally different games. And while Love's fantastic outlet passing is amazing, it is much different from Bird's half-court passing wizardry.

JayRedd
03-30-2008, 12:08 PM
I would really like to see the Pacers get 2 picks in the top 15.

I keep seeing people mention this.

How? We have no assets.

Naptown_Seth
03-30-2008, 01:30 PM
For the record, I agree that Troy sits in the way of Love.

Are you actually rebuilding around TROY??? Um, no. Troy must be moved. Okay, you can't get that done now. Who freaking cares. Stop looking at the road 2 feet in front and look 5 miles out instead.

This team shouldn't expect to be reworked for at least 2-3 more years. What will those pieces look like:

PG - ???, Diener?/other
SG - ???/Mike, ???/Rush?
SF - Danny, Shawne
PF - ???, Shawne
C - ???, Foster?

Guys that you would expect to be off this roster in order to get talent, defense and costs all under control are - Tins, JO, Troy, Quis.

Guys that just might not last for 2 more full seasons - Hulk, Ike, Rush, Diener, Flip, Graham, Owens

Foster stays unless age catches up with him or he makes too tempting a trade asset).

You don't "need a PG", not anymore. Now you need everything but a SF.


I'm not advocating Love over a PG per se. I'm just saying that IMO seeing what they have now they are NOT "only Augustin away from being a title contender".

You take any piece you can get now because you will be getting the fill-ins over the next 2 seasons and drafts. Then you will be hitting your target roster. By then even Troy's contract will look like a nice trade piece. Maybe at that point the roster has Love and one of the UCLA PGs from NEXT SEASON that you have drafted (the guys that would keep Westbrook from having a shot at PG if he stayed in college).


2 picks in the top 15 are - Pacers and 1 thrown in on JO deal or multi-player deal where we help out someone's contract spot or something and in return they give up a pick.

NJ could offer that pick and was interested in JO. Maybe it's a 3 way where Indy moves JO, Vince goes to another team and the Pacers mostly add the NJ pick and some fill-ins or cap clearing.

Sucks to have JO just be "Collison" (for example) but if you lose his contract sooner or at least break it up into easier to move parts then it's probably a smart deal overall.

Naptown_Seth
03-30-2008, 01:39 PM
Why aren't we talking about Westbrook at all? He's pretty much exactly what we need.
We are talking about him. How is he what we need? He plays swing/SG, he only drives right (thus the Fred thing), he's a leaper/loose ball guy, he's a good but not certain shooter.

Courtney Lee looked much better IMO and Lee is more of true SG type. And he plays defense. Just ask Westbrook and his 3-15 night.

I mean you couldn't ask for a better test, these 2 guys going head to head. Lee won that battle. I was actually supporting W'brook before paying attention to Lee. Lee just convinced me.

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 01:55 PM
Naptown-

Pretty good summary of the state of affairs. But I'll add a
couple observations.

1. Never thought I'd say it, but Duns can be the long term
solution at SG as long as he has solid defenders around
him at at least 3 of the other 4 spots. He makes too
much $$$ to be a backup. If he's not the starter and
Murphy can't be moved, then Duns needs to be to try
and fill another need.

2. If Williams isn't earmarked to be the eventual starter at PF,
he too should be available top move as part of a similar deal.

It makes no sense to have three marketable guys who's best
position is probably SF (Duns, DG, Shawne). Especially with
DG on the cusp of needing to be paid big $$$.

themayhem87
03-30-2008, 01:56 PM
we need dj augustin...hes so good and so much what this team needs. A young, exciting player at point. and try to get a late first pick to see if we can't get courtney lee or brandon rush. two good defenders and shooters

Kofi
03-30-2008, 01:59 PM
Lee's your typical late 1st round/early 2nd round dime a dozen G/F that's hyped up as a steal before the draft, and then proceeds to fall off the face of the earth.

Derrick Byars, anyone?

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 02:06 PM
Augustine vs Rose (and company) getting ready to tipoff.
That's gonna be a hell of a test for Augie (you just know
that's what Slick will call him if we draft him !).

Infinite MAN_force
03-30-2008, 02:12 PM
For the record, I agree that Troy sits in the way of Love.

Are you actually rebuilding around TROY??? Um, no. Troy must be moved. Okay, you can't get that done now. Who freaking cares. Stop looking at the road 2 feet in front and look 5 miles out instead.

This team shouldn't expect to be reworked for at least 2-3 more years. What will those pieces look like:

PG - ???, Diener?/other
SG - ???/Mike, ???/Rush?
SF - Danny, Shawne
PF - ???, Shawne
C - ???, Foster?

Guys that you would expect to be off this roster in order to get talent, defense and costs all under control are - Tins, JO, Troy, Quis.

Guys that just might not last for 2 more full seasons - Hulk, Ike, Rush, Diener, Flip, Graham, Owens

Foster stays unless age catches up with him or he makes too tempting a trade asset).

You don't "need a PG", not anymore. Now you need everything but a SF.


I'm not advocating Love over a PG per se. I'm just saying that IMO seeing what they have now they are NOT "only Augustin away from being a title contender".

You take any piece you can get now because you will be getting the fill-ins over the next 2 seasons and drafts. Then you will be hitting your target roster. By then even Troy's contract will look like a nice trade piece. Maybe at that point the roster has Love and one of the UCLA PGs from NEXT SEASON that you have drafted (the guys that would keep Westbrook from having a shot at PG if he stayed in college).


2 picks in the top 15 are - Pacers and 1 thrown in on JO deal or multi-player deal where we help out someone's contract spot or something and in return they give up a pick.

NJ could offer that pick and was interested in JO. Maybe it's a 3 way where Indy moves JO, Vince goes to another team and the Pacers mostly add the NJ pick and some fill-ins or cap clearing.

Sucks to have JO just be "Collison" (for example) but if you lose his contract sooner or at least break it up into easier to move parts then it's probably a smart deal overall.

I understand your line of reasoning, one problem I have is that I just am not a great believer in Love at the next level. I see him as a qaulity role player in the NBA, and when we already have a guy with similar skills (troy might not be the passer love is but I feel better about his much more legit NBA size), I don't see the point. In the nba it just seems like a 6-9 guy is gonna need some athleticism to overcome being undersized, and Love doesen't have it.

I think love is gonna be like dunleavy, he will get picked too high and thus be a big dissapointment, he should probably go late teens somewhere, not top 10.

Maybe Im just more into risk taking, but I look at the guys with better upside who fill more immediate needs. I don't think a backup PF is a major problem to be addressing in this draft, when we could be grabbing potential future starters.

Infinite MAN_force
03-30-2008, 02:20 PM
I keep seeing people mention this.

How? We have no assets.

We need to start showcasing Diogu and see if we can get chicago to bite. Its not that far fetched, afterall he was a 9th pick, so trading him for a 9th or 10th pick could be feasable. He would really need to get some minutes and show something for that to be possible. Probably unlikely.

Shawne is an asset, Im torn cause I don't want to give him up though. A team like pheonix would probably part with that 15th pick pretty easily, however...

than there is always JO. Jersey covets that expiring contract to try for lebron...

Augistin and Thabeet is my dream draft this year... If Larry could pull that off he would deserve some credit.

Robertmto
03-30-2008, 02:34 PM
The more I see Brandon Rush, the more I say use a second rounder on him.

Kofi
03-30-2008, 02:47 PM
The match-up of the tournament, from both an individual stand-point (Augustin vs Rose) and a team stand-point.

Naptown_Seth
03-30-2008, 02:50 PM
Love gives you Murph after Murph is long gone...because at that money he must be moved.

If you could get NJ to bite on giving up that DAL pick for JO, or maybe even their own, you could get Love AND Augustin/Collison. Then you might still have a shot at a Rush or Lee for backup SG.


I agree that you look at Love and think "can he do this at the next level", but my return question is this - "What moves/plays is he making that he won't be able to do at the next level?"

What, he can outlet pass suddenly? He can't continue to play below the rim? He can continue to just stand square with his arms up rather than reaching for a foul?

I don't see him as an answer...but he's the 10-11th pick. Unless you get really lucky you aren't getting an answer there, just part of your top 8. Right now they don't need just top 8 types, but this pick doesn't address that anyway and in the overall picture it's going to take a lot more moves than just this pick.

So I look at putting the SMARTEST guys together. That's why I like Rush too (but later on obviously). OTOH I do really like Augustin too, more than Collison. And after Collison there isn't much unless Chalmers comes out and magically falls like some of these draft sites suggest (which makes zero sense to me).

I have concerns about Love as an athlete, but the fact is that unlike Collison, Westbrook, Curry, Lee, etc he hasn't just gotten hot for the tourney. There's not a single thing he's doing now that he wasn't doing the first week of January.

So I'm convinced that the game you see is his game. Westbrook, or Mayo, Rose, etc have all shown plays on some nights but then been completely unable to bring out that same core on others. They are young, so I understand, but then you realize that so is Love.


My main concern with Love is that the hype is getting so big. It's got the FEEL of a big flop coming now because it's getting built up. But "feel" is why I picked Mich St and Tenn to get to the Final 4 too. ;)

mrknowname
03-30-2008, 02:52 PM
augustin's defense isn't so good, or maybe rose is just that damn good, idk.

Robertmto
03-30-2008, 02:54 PM
The match-up of the tournament, from both an individual stand-point (Augustin vs Rose) and a team stand-point.

I'd much rather see Collison vs. Rose

CableKC
03-30-2008, 02:56 PM
For the record, I agree that Troy sits in the way of Love.

Are you actually rebuilding around TROY??? Um, no. Troy must be moved. Okay, you can't get that done now. Who freaking cares. Stop looking at the road 2 feet in front and look 5 miles out instead.

This team shouldn't expect to be reworked for at least 2-3 more years. What will those pieces look like:

PG - ???, Diener?/other
SG - ???/Mike, ???/Rush?
SF - Danny, Shawne
PF - ???, Shawne
C - ???, Foster?

Guys that you would expect to be off this roster in order to get talent, defense and costs all under control are - Tins, JO, Troy, Quis.

Guys that just might not last for 2 more full seasons - Hulk, Ike, Rush, Diener, Flip, Graham, Owens

Foster stays unless age catches up with him or he makes too tempting a trade asset).

You don't "need a PG", not anymore. Now you need everything but a SF.


I'm not advocating Love over a PG per se. I'm just saying that IMO seeing what they have now they are NOT "only Augustin away from being a title contender".

You take any piece you can get now because you will be getting the fill-ins over the next 2 seasons and drafts. Then you will be hitting your target roster. By then even Troy's contract will look like a nice trade piece. Maybe at that point the roster has Love and one of the UCLA PGs from NEXT SEASON that you have drafted (the guys that would keep Westbrook from having a shot at PG if he stayed in college).


2 picks in the top 15 are - Pacers and 1 thrown in on JO deal or multi-player deal where we help out someone's contract spot or something and in return they give up a pick.

NJ could offer that pick and was interested in JO. Maybe it's a 3 way where Indy moves JO, Vince goes to another team and the Pacers mostly add the NJ pick and some fill-ins or cap clearing.

Sucks to have JO just be "Collison" (for example) but if you lose his contract sooner or at least break it up into easier to move parts then it's probably a smart deal overall.
We have seen that JO'B refuses to play a Small Big Man like Ike with decent Low-Post skills....something we need.....but has very poor defensive skills. Kevin Love seems to be "Chris Webber part deux minus the size but before his injury" that has an offensive passing game but isn't well-known for his defensive skills.

Since you appear to pay the most attention to Kevin Love....how do you rate his defense ( at least compared to Ike )?

croz24
03-30-2008, 02:58 PM
augustin is too short fellas

RomanGabriel
03-30-2008, 02:59 PM
In the nba it just seems like a 6-9 guy is gonna need some athleticism to overcome being undersized, and Love doesen't have it.

I think love is gonna be like dunleavy, he will get picked too high and thus be a big dissapointment, he should probably go late teens somewhere, not top 10.


Granted, Love is probably being overhyped by guys like me, but again, the world is filled with tremendous athletes who can't play basketball worth squat. On the other end of the spectrum, watching D. Rose light up Texas confirms my feelings that you've got Beasley, you've got Rose, and then you've got everybody else. But I'd still love to see Augustin available when we draft.

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 02:59 PM
Rose is getting away with murder on Augustin defensively.

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 03:01 PM
Why did Texas just use Mason to break the press?? Hmmm...

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 03:02 PM
This game begs the question...How did the Longhorn's frontcourt get by Stanford?

mrknowname
03-30-2008, 03:03 PM
We have seen that JO'B refuses to play a Small Big Man like Ike with decent Low-Post skills....something we need.....but has very poor defensive skills. Kevin Love seems to be "Chris Webber part deux minus the size but before his injury" that has an offensive passing game but isn't well-known for his defensive skills.

Since you appear to pay the most attention to Kevin Love....how do you rate his defense ( at least compared to Ike )?


kevin love uses his high bball iq to be a decent defender. he'll never be a shutdown defender, but he won't hurt u either imo. he knows where to be on the floor, how to rotate, and he doesn't pick up sill fouls either.

JayRedd
03-30-2008, 03:04 PM
watching D. Rose light up Texas confirms my feelings that you've got Beasley, you've got Rose, and then you've got everybody else.

Yup.

CableKC
03-30-2008, 03:07 PM
kevin love uses his high bball iq to be a decent defender. he'll never be a shutdown defender, but he won't hurt u either imo. he knows where to be on the floor, how to rotate, and he doesn't pick up sill fouls either.
That's good.....my main concern is that if Bird does draft Love ( which I can totally see ) that JO'B won't play him ( a la Ike ).

mrknowname
03-30-2008, 03:09 PM
That's good.....my main concern is that if Bird does draft Love ( which I can totally see ) that JO'B won't play him ( a la Ike ).

i think love would fit JOB's offense better than ike though. he can hit the deep ball better than ike, smarter than ike, and a better passer than ike. i think he's just better than ike

Infinite MAN_force
03-30-2008, 03:18 PM
Love gives you Murph after Murph is long gone...because at that money he must be moved.

If you could get NJ to bite on giving up that DAL pick for JO, or maybe even their own, you could get Love AND Augustin/Collison. Then you might still have a shot at a Rush or Lee for backup SG.


I agree that you look at Love and think "can he do this at the next level", but my return question is this - "What moves/plays is he making that he won't be able to do at the next level?"

What, he can outlet pass suddenly? He can't continue to play below the rim? He can continue to just stand square with his arms up rather than reaching for a foul?

I don't see him as an answer...but he's the 10-11th pick. Unless you get really lucky you aren't getting an answer there, just part of your top 8. Right now they don't need just top 8 types, but this pick doesn't address that anyway and in the overall picture it's going to take a lot more moves than just this pick.

So I look at putting the SMARTEST guys together. That's why I like Rush too (but later on obviously). OTOH I do really like Augustin too, more than Collison. And after Collison there isn't much unless Chalmers comes out and magically falls like some of these draft sites suggest (which makes zero sense to me).

I have concerns about Love as an athlete, but the fact is that unlike Collison, Westbrook, Curry, Lee, etc he hasn't just gotten hot for the tourney. There's not a single thing he's doing now that he wasn't doing the first week of January.

So I'm convinced that the game you see is his game. Westbrook, or Mayo, Rose, etc have all shown plays on some nights but then been completely unable to bring out that same core on others. They are young, so I understand, but then you realize that so is Love.


My main concern with Love is that the hype is getting so big. It's got the FEEL of a big flop coming now because it's getting built up. But "feel" is why I picked Mich St and Tenn to get to the Final 4 too. ;)

I guess time will tell with Love, i haven't watched him enough to say. I just have my doubts about what he can do against players with that much more size and athleticism.

I guess I just get a sick feeling thinking we have nothing to look forward too till after 2011. I think it is possible to rebuild without having to really purposfully sink to the gutter. Love does nothing for us in the immediate future, and the team gets no better, meanwhile we are in desperate need of better point gaurd play and a defensive presence in the paint.

I think this team needs to work to start improving in the short term, otherwise what are the chances granger even stays here? I could see a guy like him bolting from this sinking ship. This sort of rebuild takes a LONG time to payoff.

Also if Bird took your philosophy he would be out of a job, he has to have this thing going in the right direction in a two years or he is toast.

here is how I see it...

granger is your small forward of the future, dunleavy I see as prominent 6th man like ginobli(with a role player starting SG (defensive specialist who can get to the rim, hell stephan graham could play that role) and Shawne Williams at powerforward. Those are your key players I am pretty happy with, and diener , murphy, foster are your main bench players. You need two things... A starting point gaurd and IMO a true center with great shotblocking ability. you probably know which two I have in mind :D

let your young players grow together for a few years and see what happens.

At this point with such an unbalanced roster we are in a position where we have to pick for need in my opinion, and I think (or at least hope) this ship could be righted faster than 2012 if one makes the right moves/picks.

CableKC
03-30-2008, 04:33 PM
I guess time will tell with Love, i haven't watched him enough to say. I just have my doubts about what he can do against players with that much more size and athleticism.

I guess I just get a sick feeling thinking we have nothing to look forward too till after 2011. I think it is possible to rebuild without having to really purposfully sink to the gutter. Love does nothing for us in the immediate future, and the team gets no better, meanwhile we are in desperate need of better point gaurd play and a defensive presence in the paint.

I think this team needs to work to start improving in the short term, otherwise what are the chances granger even stays here? I could see a guy like him bolting from this sinking ship. This sort of rebuild takes a LONG time to payoff.

Also if Bird took your philosophy he would be out of a job, he has to have this thing going in the right direction in a two years or he is toast.

here is how I see it...

granger is your small forward of the future, dunleavy I see as prominent 6th man like ginobli(with a role player starting SG (defensive specialist who can get to the rim, hell stephan graham could play that role) and Shawne Williams at powerforward. Those are your key players I am pretty happy with, and diener , murphy, foster are your main bench players. You need two things... A starting point gaurd and IMO a true center with great shotblocking ability. you probably know which two I have in mind :D

let your young players grow together for a few years and see what happens.

At this point with such an unbalanced roster we are in a position where we have to pick for need in my opinion, and I think (or at least hope) this ship could be righted faster than 2012 if one makes the right moves/picks.
I think that defensive roleplayers are better acquired through Free Agency or even available through the 2nd round. I get the sense that Bird is the type that will draft the best player available as opposed to need....unless it comes to drafting one that is the best available along with fitting a position of need....like either Collison or Augustine. Again....the player that sort of fit that need is Love. Although he is not known for his defensive skills....the defensive system that JO'B employs requires that a player understand and their role in the defense...to me...with his "renowned" Basketball IQ....Love should be able to pick up the defense to the point where he won't ( at least ) look like he is lost ( a la Ike ).

Also.....if you are not sure how a PF like Love would do against other bigger and more athletic PF in the league....why do you think that Shawne would fare any better? I think that Shawne can play PF minutes....but only as a backup where he splits time with Granger at the SF spot. Shawne playing extensive minutes at the PF spot IMHO is a bad idea. I am not enamored with the idea of playing Small Ball with Shawne/Granger at PF for extended periods of time UNLESS we get a dominant Center that can rebound and Block shots while being able to keep up with the pace that we require. Given that we won't have a Solid Center that can do that in the near future ( unless Thabeet can be had with another late-1st round pick ), then I would prefer to play ONLY Small ball as a secondary offensive option....not the norm.

Kofi
03-30-2008, 04:46 PM
Tough game for Augustin, but you never judge a player based on one game. The fact is, Texas isn't a very talented team outside of D.J., whereas Memphis is stacked.

Rajah Brown
03-30-2008, 04:49 PM
Rose is just a frigging beast at PG. He'll need to extend his range
at the next level, but otherwise, he's got eventual top-3-4, PG in the
NBA written all over him.

Assuming Beasley goes #1, I wonder if DG + our 2009 1st rounder
would get it done for #2 ?

rm1369
03-30-2008, 05:43 PM
I don't see him as an answer...but he's the 10-11th pick. Unless you get really lucky you aren't getting an answer there, just part of your top 8. Right now they don't need just top 8 types, but this pick doesn't address that anyway and in the overall picture it's going to take a lot more moves than just this pick.



I agree with your assesment that it's going to take alot more moves than this pick and that this is probably longer than a 2-3 year thing. To me that means that you shouldn't be looking for top eight guys. You have to be looking for top 2 guys. Even if that means rolling the dice with someone with the dreaded P word. Priority one for this team should be finding someone the team can be built around. I love DG, but I don't believe it's him. They don't appear to have the assets to get that player through trade. They don't have the cap space to get that player through free agency. That leaves the draft. As you said, they have to get lucky. If they swing and miss a few times, so be it. I just don't want to see them bunt.

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 05:53 PM
Curry is doing a pretty good job defending Rush right now.

Robertmto
03-30-2008, 05:58 PM
Rose is just a frigging beast at PG. He'll need to extend his range
at the next level, but otherwise, he's got eventual top-3-4, PG in the
NBA written all over him.

Assuming Beasley goes #1, I wonder if DG + our 2009 1st rounder
would get it done for #2 ?

If I'm Riley, I take Rose for the trade bait and trade down

Trader Joe
03-30-2008, 06:22 PM
Curry is just running Rush off the court right now.