PDA

View Full Version : Official 2008 NBA Draft recruiting center...



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

croz24
02-24-2008, 06:54 PM
i think we ought to start doing a sean singletary watch since i personally would prefer him in the 2nd round over augustin or collison in the 1st lol...tonight he put up 21pts 6asts 7stls in a 78-60 uva win over ncst...

2 others we could probably do one on are jamont gordon of miss st and brian roberts of dayton...both players who seem to be at least of equal quality in my eyes to collison and augustin...

owl
02-24-2008, 07:07 PM
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/rodriguebeaubois.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=22222
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/jayceecarroll.html

Players with some skills and not as well known.

Kofi
02-25-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm begining to grow on the idea of taking Hasheem Thabeet if he's available. His upside is just so huge, an athletic 7'3" 270 lb. shot blocking machine. I'm also impressed by how his offense has improved since last season. There should be interesting point guard prospects available in the 2nd, or we could always try and move up into the mid-1st and take our picking of whoever's available then.

Kofi
02-25-2008, 07:50 AM
i think we ought to start doing a sean singletary watch since i personally would prefer him in the 2nd round over augustin or collison in the 1st lol...tonight he put up 21pts 6asts 7stls in a 78-60 uva win over ncst...

2 others we could probably do one on are jamont gordon of miss st and brian roberts of dayton...both players who seem to be at least of equal quality in my eyes to collison and augustin...


Is Gordon a point guard? ESPN has him listed as G/F.

I do know they're both turning the ball over like crazy which would scare me away from them.

I'd like to see us get up into the mid-teens to mid-20's and take one of the better NBA prospects. Maybe Ike and our 2nd could get us somewhere in there?

Doddage
02-25-2008, 05:25 PM
I'm begining to grow on the idea of taking Hasheem Thabeet if he's available. His upside is just so huge, an athletic 7'3" 270 lb. shot blocking machine. I'm also impressed by how his offense has improved since last season. There should be interesting point guard prospects available in the 2nd, or we could always try and move up into the mid-1st and take our picking of whoever's available then.
Yeah, he's definitely improved over the course of the season. My eye was on Hibbert (who I'd still take, but not over Thabeet at this point) before I saw enough of Thabeet to know that the dude has potential. However, he does need work on his post game and passing game before he can get to that next level. With his work ethic though, I think he has the ability to get there.

CableKC
02-25-2008, 06:04 PM
I'm beginning to agree with Seth....I think that with all the hype around his "potential" growing.....Thabeet won't be on the board after the 6th pick.

Major Cold
02-25-2008, 06:54 PM
There was a defensive raw specialist at Wake Forest. He was a sophomore and he was exciting to watch. His progression was rapid and people knew who he was by the end of his junior year. Duncan had that something special. Thabeet still looks lost of defense. He is constantly out of position for rebounds because his determination to get after the block. I really do not see Thabeet more than a Ratliff. Maybe a Ratliff that remains healthy. I don't think he will get a offensive nit-ch to his game. He and Hibbert will most likely be solid contributors, but nothing to TANK over. Unless Thabeet has a great tourney I don't see him cracking the top 8. I would not be surprised if Hibbert has a better tourney because of his experience. That is why I we would see a team like the New Jersey or Miami (if they play slightly better) pick him over Thabeet.

Love impressed me against Oregon. He may not have had an ideal game, but he was productive. He is the type of player that makes players around him better. A Sabonis factor so to speak.

Kofi
02-25-2008, 10:17 PM
I'm beginning to agree with Seth....I think that with all the hype around his "potential" growing.....Thabeet won't be on the board after the 6th pick.

I've been thinking the same thing for a while. A guy with his size, athleticism, youth, and defensive abilities is a combination too promising to pass up on. With how a guy like Andrew Bynum was slept on, I could see a team not wanting to make the same mistake twice and end up taking him as high as the top-5.

Kofi
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
There was a defensive raw specialist at Wake Forest. He was a sophomore and he was exciting to watch. His progression was rapid and people knew who he was by the end of his junior year. Duncan had that something special. Thabeet still looks lost of defense. He is constantly out of position for rebounds because his determination to get after the block. I really do not see Thabeet more than a Ratliff. Maybe a Ratliff that remains healthy. I don't think he will get a offensive nit-ch to his game. He and Hibbert will most likely be solid contributors, but nothing to TANK over. Unless Thabeet has a great tourney I don't see him cracking the top 8. I would not be surprised if Hibbert has a better tourney because of his experience. That is why I we would see a team like the New Jersey or Miami (if they play slightly better) pick him over Thabeet.

Love impressed me against Oregon. He may not have had an ideal game, but he was productive. He is the type of player that makes players around him better. A Sabonis factor so to speak.

You have to consider the huge size differential. Theo is 6'10" 235, Hasheem is 7'3" 260, with room to grow. That makes a world of difference. If you take Theo's ability and put it in that huge of a frame, you could be looking at another Dikembe Mutombo. Maybe not an elite center, but a guy one notch below it. I'm not saying Thabeet will reach that level, he's a gamble like every other young player, but the possibility sure is enticing.

Kofi
02-25-2008, 11:54 PM
Here's Thabeet's sophomore production (top) compared to Ratliff's sophomore production...

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4670/hasheemtheokn1.gif

Thabeet is better pretty much across the board. And Thabeet is doing it in the tough as nails Big East, whereas Ratliff played at Wyoming, in the then Western Athletic Conference (WAC) with teams like BYU, San Diego State, Air Force etc. And of course, the huge size differential which mentioned earlier.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2008, 09:11 AM
In case you hadn't trusted my comments on Bill Walker and his attitude, they mentioned it in during the game last night. You know the game, the one where Walker went 0-14 and K St lost a critical home game to Texas.

In other news, bring in Augustin (still), looks to at least be a Ford type of PG.


Croz, as I mentioned before, the Big 12 and Big East appear more competive than the ACC. I agree that perhaps Collison is overrated even though he's in perhaps the best conference of all, but it's still a huge risk to chase Singletary with some of these other PGs on the board. Heck, if Chalmers comes out and is on the board you take him before Singletary too.

We won't even get to see Singletary in the tourney because despite a semi-weak ACC VA is well under .500.


Love impressed me against Oregon. He may not have had an ideal game, but he was productive. He is the type of player that makes players around him better. A Sabonis factor so to speak.
That's a big factor with him. This is what I like about both him and Brandon Rush. You can see them read the court away from the ball. High IQ guys that get the most out of their talent and have enough to impact the game. Love isn't going to lead the team to the title but he's going to make both your offensive and defensive system run like a top.

Love has hinted that he would strongly consider staying another season at UCLA. I kinda wish he would so the Pacers could get a top PG/SG this year and then get him next year perhaps. :)


Thabeet probably is about Ratliff or so. That's fine with me if you get him at 8-10. That's a guy that impacts the game at an NBA level in two areas (shot block, rebound).

Kofi
02-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Thabeet's upside if far higher than Theo Ratliff. We're talking undersized 6'10" 235 lb center vs enormous 7'3" 265 lb center. I'd also wager Thabeet's offense will end up superior to Ratliff's.

Best Case: Dikembe Mutombo
Worst Case: Desagana Diop
Median: Samuel Dalembert

Mr. Sobchak
02-26-2008, 10:51 AM
Thabeet's upside if far higher than Theo Ratliff. We're talking undersized 6'10" 235 lb center vs enormous 7'3" 265 lb center. I'd also wager Thabeet's offense will end up superior to Ratliff's.

Best Case: Dikembe Mutombo
Worst Case: Desagana Diop
Median: Samuel Dalembert



That is exactly what this team needs. Some interior shot blocking and toughness that will make people think twice about coming into the lane..

MyFavMartin
02-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Anyone like Erica Maynor?

Major Cold
02-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Sene anyone? Petro? I just don't want to throw this pick on just potential. I can see him becoming a Dalembert, but he could end up like a Lauderdale (the Shaq stopper). Size is not the only thing. And we all know that atheleticism can waver (JO is 29 right?). Look I see his upside, but what I see now is a player that is still green even in his most touted area of expertise.

I am with you Seth, IQ can mask other deficiencies (sp). Dunleavy might even be out of the league if it weren't for his know-how. If I want raw I want Ibaka late in the first and get a proven guard with our pick.

CableKC
02-26-2008, 01:34 PM
Sene anyone? Petro? I just don't want to throw this pick on just potential. I can see him becoming a Dalembert, but he could end up like a Lauderdale (the Shaq stopper). Size is not the only thing. And we all know that atheleticism can waver (JO is 29 right?). Look I see his upside, but what I see now is a player that is still green even in his most touted area of expertise.

I am with you Seth, IQ can mask other deficiencies (sp). Dunleavy might even be out of the league if it weren't for his know-how. If I want raw I want Ibaka late in the first and get a proven guard with our pick.
I don't mind high Basketball IQ......but can't something be said for having a high Basketball IQ player that is limited by his physical skills and ability?

It's good that Dunleavy and ( to a certain extent ) Murphy can understand how JO'Bs defensive system because of their high basketball IQ.....but that high basketball IQ isn't going to help them when he is guarding a far quicker, more skilled and athletic player.

If a player like Love is the best Big Man if not player that we can choose at whatever spot we are drafting...then I have no problem with drafting him. But if there was some player that could really help us in one of the many areas of help that we need ( like some "both ends of the court" PG or SG )....I would much rather choose the player that can help us at both ends of the court then Love ( assuming that this player isn't the dumbest player on the court ).

I'm not saying that we should choose super athletic, skilled players that is as dumb as a rock over high basketball IQ players....but I don't think it's a good idea to place a higher premium on players with high basketball IQ that aren't as athletic ( or quick ) over a player that has the necessary skills that we need to fill a clear weakness in our overall game. To me....there is a reason why Dunleavy isn't our best long-term option as the Starting SG...it's because he gets burned by far quicker and more athletic SGs.

I understand that having a high basketball IQ for a player can help any player better fit into JO'Bs system.....but if the player doesn't have the necessary skills nor physical attribute to properly implement that system....what good is that?

Kofi
02-26-2008, 06:07 PM
Love has hinted that he would strongly consider staying another season at UCLA. I kinda wish he would so the Pacers could get a top PG/SG this year and then get him next year perhaps. :)

I think he'll stay at least one more season. I highly doubt money's an issue for him, which is the main reason most young guys come out early. I bet he stays at least 2 seasons, maybe even more.

Mr. Sobchak
02-26-2008, 08:15 PM
My perfect draft would be to pick up three great defensive players.

First Pick: Thabeet
Trade into the Late Lottery: Darren Collison
Second Round: Marcus Dove

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2008, 09:54 PM
Yeah, Love basically said that didn't he..."the family has money, I don't need to go chase a contract, I can play here if it's what I'm enjoying". Ironically all the more reason you'd like him to come out and get drafted by Indy.

We'll see, some kids like this do stay, others have a change of heart. Hibbert, Noah, Duncan are all guys that came back another year as examples.

Cable, if you haven't seen Love play much I think you need to take a look. He's not just smart as in structure, he's smart as in reading the floor on the fly. It's not so much about learning systems, it's about seeing what to do before everyone else when it gets crazy.

On top of that he's crafty. He's not a lug that gets by running the system. To me that seems more like Hansbrough.


Dove - good kid, pretty solid, but seems redundant with this roster. And while he's the man with his team, he's struggled to stay out of foul trouble in some pretty big games. Someone will get him in round 2 and he just might surprise people a bit ala Carl Landry, but I think the Pacers can do better with a high 2nd round pick.


You know if Indy ends up slotted around 10 some of these choices will be made for them, but it's still going to be a really tough spot to make a choice. They probably are going to have to make a guard/big choice where either has the chance to impact the team.

Mr. Sobchak
02-26-2008, 11:00 PM
Dove - good kid, pretty solid, but seems redundant with this roster. And while he's the man with his team, he's struggled to stay out of foul trouble in some pretty big games. Someone will get him in round 2 and he just might surprise people a bit ala Carl Landry, but I think the Pacers can do better with a high 2nd round pick.


Dove would be there for shut down perimeter defense not because we need another sf. This kid has the physical tools to be an elite defender at the next level- he has been one of the best defenders, if not THE best defender in the country for the past 2-3 years. If we get three solid defenders in this draft we'll be in great position. Pair Ike or Murphy next to Thabeet and suddendly their defense doesn't look so bad. Thabeet takes up so much space that we could play a 4 out 1 in style that JOB likes to run. Collison would complement what Diener brings and we could use Dove to guard the McGradys, James, and Wades of the league.

tdubb03
02-26-2008, 11:24 PM
Didn't think it warranted a new thread, but the newly christened #1 Tennessee is about to get knocked off by Vanderbilt.

Young
02-27-2008, 12:34 AM
Didn't think it warranted a new thread, but the newly christened #1 Tennessee is about to get knocked off by Vanderbilt.

Yeah,

UT took some awful shots and couldn't finish at the rim.

Always nice to shoot 30% from the field too...

CableKC
02-27-2008, 12:48 AM
Dove - good kid, pretty solid, but seems redundant with this roster. And while he's the man with his team, he's struggled to stay out of foul trouble in some pretty big games. Someone will get him in round 2 and he just might surprise people a bit ala Carl Landry, but I think the Pacers can do better with a high 2nd round pick.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Pistons draft him in the 2nd round. They always seem to draft top-notch defensive players every season.

CableKC
02-27-2008, 12:49 AM
Dove would be there for shut down perimeter defense not because we need another sf. This kid has the physical tools to be an elite defender at the next level- he has been one of the best defenders, if not THE best defender in the country for the past 2-3 years. If we get three solid defenders in this draft we'll be in great position. Pair Ike or Murphy next to Thabeet and suddendly their defense doesn't look so bad. Thabeet takes up so much space that we could play a 4 out 1 in style that JOB likes to run. Collison would complement what Diener brings and we could use Dove to guard the McGradys, James, and Wades of the league.
I would be giddy but utterly stunned if we did the right thing and actually drafted some defensive minded players.

Mr. Sobchak
02-27-2008, 11:56 AM
I think Gordon's stock is slipping and we are moving up in the draft. We might actually have a realistic shot at getting him.

CableKC
02-27-2008, 01:44 PM
Okay.....even with players like Thabeet or Love ( in Seth's case ) is still on the board the draft....if Eric Gordon is available at the 9th or 10th pick in the draft....do you think that the Pacers should draft him?

croz24
02-27-2008, 01:51 PM
if ej's available at 9 or 10, i'd probably draft him, unless mayo were there too...i might even consider anthony randolph over ej...

Rajah Brown
02-27-2008, 02:05 PM
I'd take EJ over Love w/o a hesitation. I'm not sure on Thabeet.
It'd depend on what becomes of J.O. and who comes back in
a trade if he's moved.

EJ's shortcomings (lack of a pull-up, mid-range game, erratic
ball-handling and poor decision making at times) can be fixed
with hard work, better coaching and experience.

Mr. Sobchak
02-27-2008, 02:28 PM
Okay.....even with players like Thabeet or Love ( in Seth's case ) is still on the board the draft....if Eric Gordon is available at the 9th or 10th pick in the draft....do you think that the Pacers should draft him?


I think we have to take EG if he's still there strictly from a pr standpoint. I think he also addresses some of our needs as well. He certainly has the ability to be a better defender at the 2 than Jr. I think we'd have to have a big point guard to go with him eventually. (think players like Andre Miller or Shaun Livingston) I love EG (I'm a student at IU now) but I can't honestly say that if Mayo were on the board I wouldn't take a long look at taking him over EG. Mayo's issues concern me but his ability to create off the dribble is his main strength. I don't really think we've seen a fraction of what Mayo can potentially be.

If EJ or Mayo slip to us we have to take one of them but if not I would take a gamble on Thabeet IMO.

I like Augustin overall but Augustin, Diener, and Tinsley? :puke: Worst Defensive point guard trio in the league bar none.

I wouldn't take Love for this team under any circumstances. Look- he's a solid, smart player but his defense is soft and he is somewhat undersized and overweight. If I were Philadelpia at 15 I would take him in a heart beat but not for this team no way no how. If he can keep his weight under control he'll be a pretty good player.

Gyron
02-27-2008, 03:43 PM
If gordon is the god everyone makes him out to be, why would he go 9th or 10th Pick?

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2008, 04:06 PM
EJ will not be on the board past 7-8 at the very least.

Dove would be there for shut down perimeter defense not because we need another sf. This kid has the physical tools to be an elite defender at the next level- he has been one of the best defenders, if not THE best defender in the country for the past 2-3 years. If we get three solid defenders in this draft we'll be in great position. Pair Ike or Murphy next to Thabeet and suddendly their defense doesn't look so bad. Thabeet takes up so much space that we could play a 4 out 1 in style that JOB likes to run. Collison would complement what Diener brings and we could use Dove to guard the McGradys, James, and Wades of the league.
The only thing for me is that if you get Thabeet in round 1 (for defense) then I like Weaver as your guard defender in round 2, which is about where he falls. He's not going to blow people away on offense, but he won't give you the Orien Greene ball carry either (it appears).

You still get the inside/outside look there.


Cable, I'm not trying to jock Love like he's my guy, but I guess I kinda am. :) To put it to rest unless something NEW shows up, here are 3 guys I'm really sold on, besides the top 4-5 guys:

Love (around 8-12)
Augustin (similar, because Bayless is long gone)
Brandon Rush (around 25-35...that's 35 if you get lucky)

So on those 3 I'll just consider it implied from now on that I like their games. There's too many other guys to discuss to kick that horse more. :D


Everyone got up on Smith after the Memphis win, but both he and Oglivy were kinda non-factors in the Vandy win last night. I think Smith is fine, but somewhat in that average good college player way, one of those that perhaps fades away. I mentioned that type a few pages ago.

I'm not saying he won't be great, I just don't see it myself. Since Dove was just mentioned I'd rather have him at this point because of that defensive awareness.


Price, another pet pick for me, has really been slumping. But his sidekick Austrie keeps making an impression. He reminds me of a college version of Monta Ellis, but the problem is he doesn't have the FG% to make it. I assume he's staying for his senior year and could be a kid to watch.


DJ White - gotta say that his gutty post-injury play is raising his stock. Poor man's Dale Davis perhaps? The problem for him is size. He plays like an upright PF much like Dale did, but without the same height and power (it looks like to me at least). He's not a 10 pick, but he's not making to the Pacers 2nd round at this point.

Mr. Sobchak
02-27-2008, 06:13 PM
If gordon is the god everyone makes him out to be, why would he go 9th or 10th Pick?


First of all no one in this thread is calling him a god. He is a good player though that has the potential to be great if he can overcome his height and work on his game. Secondly we will have the 6th to 8th pick barring that Jamaal and Jermaine don't come back. As far as him slipping to the 6-8 range I think teams might be scared off by his lack of size. Hell, Granger should have been a top 10 pick easily but he slipped because people questioned his durability- these things happen.



EJ will not be on the board past 7-8 at the very least.

The only thing for me is that if you get Thabeet in round 1 (for defense) then I like Weaver as your guard defender in round 2, which is about where he falls. He's not going to blow people away on offense, but he won't give you the Orien Greene ball carry either (it appears).

You still get the inside/outside look there.


No way Weaver lasts until our pick.

Gyron
02-27-2008, 08:42 PM
Peskoe97,

You apparently haven't been reading any of the threads about IU. You'd think he was Lebron and Micheal Jordan combined based upon the way everyone gushes about him in the other threads.

jmoney2584
02-27-2008, 08:48 PM
Peskoe97,

You apparently haven't been reading any of the threads about IU. You'd think he was Lebron and Micheal Jordan combined based upon the way everyone gushes about him in the other threads.

That is a grossly misunderstood idea. The comments come from those of us who watch him game in and game out. If Ben Gordon can come of the bench for big numbers, EJ would be a bigger, stronger version of him capable of starting. He is a pure scorer and good defender, his key in the NBA is going to be how well he moves without the ball and shot selection. If he gets good mentoring in those areas then I truly expect him to be a great NBA player. No not Lebron nor Jordan, but a Chauncey Billups/Gilbert Arenas combined style player.

Major Cold
02-28-2008, 10:22 AM
Just read the SI article on Lopez and his brother. I have yet to see him play but he seems well grounded. If we get the 6 pick and say:
BEasley
Rose
Jordan
Bayless
Gordon

are gone. Would you go for him?

Mr. Sobchak
02-28-2008, 11:35 AM
Just read the SI article on Lopez and his brother. I have yet to see him play but he seems well grounded. If we get the 6 pick and say:
BEasley
Rose
Jordan
Bayless
Gordon

are gone. Would you go for him?

Lopez seems redundant with what we have on our roster unless we get someone who can play power foward with some strength and intensity. Joey Dorsey maybe? I'm tired of watching our soft as butter big men play no defense. Foster is a good one on one defender and rebounder but is anemic on offense and does not pair well with Murph/Ike. Murphy and Ike are non existent on defense so we can't pair another soft defender with them. JO is JO and will probably stay injured (he is kind've soft too). I agree with T-Bird when I say we need to mix and match skill sets to create mis matches. We need either a strong, tough rebounding 4 or 5 paired with a skilled finesse 4 or 5. Think Rik and Dale, think Thabeet and Murph/Ike, think Okafor and Hibbert, think Hawes and Williams. Bird is refusing to rebuild so we need to work with what we have and that means getting a tough, rebounder to enforce our frontcourt.

Naptown_Seth
02-28-2008, 11:58 AM
Yeah, but you can't take Thabeet there when the value is Lopez. You have to trade down at that point.


Weaver - yeah, I've seen him all over the place, and at times listed around 20 even. The mocks are just all over the place, even toward the top. Pretty tough to read how draft night is going to go down even after the top 3-4.

Beasley, Rose, Bayless are there, probably EJ, Lopez and Jordan. But even Jordan surprises me that high. Potential sure, but he's not been knocking it out of the park yet and other bigs have been moderately impressive this year.

Anyway, by that point it just gets nuts.

Major Cold
02-28-2008, 12:01 PM
Jordan has slipped. I think that he may go later than EJ. But a big like that and GMs get hot and heavy quickly. Potential is key with Jordan.


Lopez reminds me of a poor man Gasol with better blocking. If you could morph the Lopez twins you might get a contender at the number 1 spot.

Jonathan
02-28-2008, 12:19 PM
I like this guy from Russia a lot and think we should get him via second round

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZuPVqTk3ys

I also feel that Mike Green of Butler should be given an open invite to summer league team along with Graves just for positive PR

Thoughts on Jaycee Carroll as well?

Major Cold
02-28-2008, 12:46 PM
From that clip I am not impressed with his ability. We will have an early pick and I would not like to get another Euro "star".

Jonathan
02-28-2008, 02:17 PM
From that clip I am not impressed with his ability. We will have an early pick and I would not like to get another Euro "star".

It will be interesting to see the route the Pacers go via draft but we need players that can play Defense & Create their own shot. Nikoli will be available and we can get a good wing defender via free agency ie Chris Duhon, Fred Jones. I just feel you cannot pass on a decent big man with potential b/c they are harder to find.

We do need another big brut b/c Murphy is a finesse player.

Kofi
02-28-2008, 02:30 PM
What about this Batum kid? He's young and French, so I doubt anyone here knows anything at all about him besides what the draft sites report. He's a name I can't recall seeing mentioned here until now. He's listed at 6'8", 210 pounds, and as a G/F. His shooting appears weak, so as of right now, unless he wowed me during the pre-draft, I'd probably pass. Just throwing his name out there.

CableKC
02-28-2008, 02:58 PM
Cable, I'm not trying to jock Love like he's my guy, but I guess I kinda am. :) To put it to rest unless something NEW shows up, here are 3 guys I'm really sold on, besides the top 4-5 guys:

Love (around 8-12)
Augustin (similar, because Bayless is long gone)
Brandon Rush (around 25-35...that's 35 if you get lucky)

So on those 3 I'll just consider it implied from now on that I like their games. There's too many other guys to discuss to kick that horse more. :D
I was only messing with you regarding Love. In fact, the only reason why I'm even paying attention to him ( and Weaver ) is because you constantly bring them up. I agree with you that IF we somehow get the 15th pick ( which is unlikely since it means that we somehow make the Playoffs ) that IF a player like Thabeet or any other Big Man that makes sense for us isn't available, that Love would be a solid pickup at the 15th spot.

But since it's likely that we will make the Playoffs...which means that we will end up between the 7th to 10th draft pick.....taking Love at the 10 spot maybe a stretch.

As for Weaver....I totally agree with you.....unfortunately, I can't see him dropping past the mid-20s in the draft.

Kofi
02-28-2008, 03:28 PM
For those saying a pick in the 11-15 range is just as good as a top-10 pick, can you answer this question? In the past 15 drafts, 93-07, how many players drafted between 11-15 (75 players total) have made at least one All-Star team?

If you don't feel like looking it up, just give it your best guess.

CableKC
02-28-2008, 05:41 PM
Based off of the assumption that we will likely draft in the 8th to 10th spot this season,

I think that it would be a good idea to start putting together a consensus as to who many of you will likely be the top 10 players that will be drafted.

Since I know very little about NCAA BBall and can only go by what most of you in this thread have talked about......I poked around some of the Mock Drafts that are out there to get an idea about what most people are thinking as to who would likely be drafted in the top 10.

The consensus Top 2 picks appear to be:

1 ) Beasley
2 ) Rose

From there.....it would seem that there is a range of players that will likely fall between the 3rd to 9th spot ( in no particular order ):

Jerryd Bayless
Brook Lopez
Eric Gordon
Nicolas Bantum
DeAndre Jordan
OJ Mayo

It would seem that players like Bayless, Lopez and Gordon will likely be picked between 3 to 6...which would leave more well-known players like Jordan, and Mayo available next to some European talent like Bantum.

There are some drafts that has players like Thabeet, Augustin, Gallinari and ( even ) Hibbert being drafted in the 9th to 11th spots....but after the 9th spot....it appears to be a guess at that point.

I know that any "Mock Draft" should be taken with a grain of salt.....but given the likely crop of players entering the draft this year....it's a good starting point. Obviously, it's debateable as to who gets picked where since it varies from "Mock Draft" to "Mock Draft".

Thoughts anyone?

NOTE - The purpose of this thread is not to suggest that we should tank the rest of the season, I just want to get an idea about who will likely be available if we miss the Playoffs. I have no problem with continuing to win.....I just think that no matter how hard we try to win ( while not intentionally losing games ).....we will likely come up short and miss the Playoffs....simply because we are not that good and the rest of the teams that we are competing against for the last Playoff Spot is simply playing better ball now.

idioteque
02-28-2008, 05:58 PM
For those saying a pick in the 11-15 range is just as good as a top-10 pick, can you answer this question? In the past 15 drafts, 93-07, how many players drafted between 11-15 (75 players total) have made at least one All-Star team?

If you don't feel like looking it up, just give it your best guess.

My guess would be eight.

Kofi
02-28-2008, 07:16 PM
My guess would be eight.

4

1993 - Allan Houston, #11
1996 - Kobe Bryant, #13
1996 - Peja Stojakovic, #14
1996 - Steve Nash, #15

The prior 5 picks, #6-10, have 13 All-Stars in that same time. Still not a lot, but much better than 4.

The top-5 picks over the past 15 drafts have produced a whopping 31 All-Stars and counting (Oden, Durant, D. Williams etc.).

Will Galen
02-28-2008, 07:21 PM
I like to read Chad Fords take on the NBA. Since he talks to scouts and NBA front office personnel I think he has a better grasp on players than most. I think most people reading this thread find him interesting.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=19477
Chat with Chad Ford

<!-- end pagetitle -->

<!-- begin text11 div which ends in storyFrame template --> <!-- begin tabling which ends in storyFrame template --> <table align="right"><tbody><tr><td>http://espn.go.com/i/columnists/ford_chad_m.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table> Welcome to The Show! On Thursday, ESPN NBA Insider Chad Ford will drop by to talk some NBA hoops. Ford covers the NBA and NBA Draft for ESPN Insider and also makes appearances on ESPN Radio and ESPNEWS.
Send in your questions to Chad now, then join him right here in The Show on Thursday at 1 p.m. ET!
Ford Archive: Chats (http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?page=ChatArchiveFord) | Columns (http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=chad_ford)

<!-- hasAccess = true--><!-- chat status = C-->http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Aloha everyone. Thanks for coming out to the chat. We'll do a little post trade deadline stuff and then spend the bulk of the time here on the NBA draft -- that's where most NBA teams and front offices have turned their attention.


<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Dave (W-S, NC): Chad what do you think of P.J. Brown bolstering the Celtics front line?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He was a nice get ... but I never want to go overboard on these types of moves. It isn't too often that a player a team picks up after being waived or after coming out of retirement really makes that much of a difference. Brown may be the exception ... but, for instance, I don't see what Jamaal Magloire really adds to the Mavs other than another warm body. If he couldn't get any minutes on a bad Nets team ...

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jacob (NYC): Guten morgen Chad. So whats the latest word on Cassell? Is Sterling gonna try and stall the buyout? Do you think the deal will get done, and what team do you think Cassell would fit with the best?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Sterling is willing to waive Cassell if he quits collecting a paycheck. Cassell wants to be paid and waived. Most owners will do it ... I'm not sure Sterling will. Is Cassell willing to give up a few million to win a title. As much as NBA players like to talk the talk ... very few of them are willing to put their money where their mouth is ... As for fit ... I think it will be Boston and I think he could help. Rondo's been great, but he has zero playoff experience. They could use that ...

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Chris (IN): Now that the Bulls have Hughes and Gordon, who is likely the one out and what can they expect in return?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I've got to believe Gordon is expendable this summer now. Not a lot of teams with cap room ... but the Bulls might be able to find a sign-and-trade that they like.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jordan-Chi: I know Mad Pax and the Bulls are going to make some major changes this summer, but what? How can they turn this team around and who would they get to do so???

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I think they'll probably try to get some value for Gordon in a sign-and-trade. They still need a low post scorer. Drew Gooden doesn't really give them that. Neither does Joakim Noah or Tyrus Thomas. I think the team seems further than ever from being the championship contender many thought they'd be this year.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Rocke (LA): Hey Chad - Is it just me, or do the Suns look pretty bad since the Shaq trade?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I was not a fan of this trade. It's early ... but all the fears associated with it are being played out on the court. Now ... Shaq may play himself into shape and the Suns will be rolling come mid April. But honestly, I like three or four teams in the West (Lakers, Spurs, Jazz and probably the Hornets) better than the Suns right now.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jimmy (Glendale, AZ): Hey Chad! To me it's clearly obvious that the Suns biggest problem is coaching. The way D'Antoni is using Shaq, and his lack of using his bench makes me think the Suns might be better suited with a different coach. What are your thoughts, and do you see him possibly being gone after this year? Thanks

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Mike D'Antoni is not the problem. There are 25 GMs in the league that would jump at the chance to have Mike as their coach. Here's the irony ... I actually thought the Suns were poised for a competitive Western Conference Finals before the trade. Now I don't think they get there. Rare to see a championship caliber team take a step backward mid-season because of a trade. The old line ... "Don't mess with a good thing" (and yes they were a good thing, they have the best record in the West coming into the trade) seems to apply here.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Shawn (La Habra, CA): Hello, Mr. Ford. Please do provide us a recipe to fix our miserable Clippers.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: They are headed for disaster. Elton Brand and Corey Maggette can opt out of their contract. I could see both leaving LA. That could leave the Clippers as the "Chris Kaman show" .... Ugh. Remember when there was talk about the Clippers eclipsing the Lakers as the best franchise in LA. Now they are in completely different worlds again. It goes to show you how good ownership and good front office really make a difference in pro sports.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Tom NJ: Is it a real possibility that Lebron James leaves Cleveland for NJ in 2 years? All the Nets need to do is clear Carter off the cap to make a max money offer, might be easier said than done though....

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Yes ... I think it's a real possibility. As it stands (and Cavs fans have really misread what I wrote after the trade deadline) ... the Cavs will enter next season with a bunch of expiring contracts. However, if they let all the contracts expire, it won't be enough for them to get far enough below the cap to sign a significant free agent. So ... they have to start trying to find teams willing to give back good young players or semi All-Stars in return for those expiring contracts. That almost NEVER happens. I know everyone is pointing to the Pau Gasol trade. But that's really a rarity. Instead, look at what the Knicks have gotten in return for their expiring contracts. That's much closer to the norm. So ... barring a miracle, the Cavs enter the start of 2009 with some minor upgrades. In 2010 ... everyone's contract expires and LeBron can opt out. Then the Cavs will have room to sign LeBron and a couple of other free agents. But teams like the Nets will have room too ... and probably more established players to put alongside LeBron. It's not guaranteed he leaves ... but it's a very real possibility.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Will (Denver, CO): Chad, I have a salary cap question. If a team is over the cap (like almost every team in the league is), can that team still sign a high priced free agent like Elton Brand and then pay the millions of dollars of luxury tax for doing so? Or are those teams over the cap restricted to the mid level exception?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: If a team is over the cap ... they can exceed the cap to sign their own free agents who have been under contract for three consecutive years. However, they can't exceed the cap to sign other team's free agents. Instead, they can use the mid-level exception (roughly $5 million) to sign a new player or players. So ... the only teams that look capable of giving a guy like Elton Brand a big deal are the Clippers, Sixers and Grizzlies. However ... the Sixers and Grizzlies don't have enough cap room to pay Brand what he wants. It looks like the Sixers will have around $10 million and the Grizzlies around $12 million. Heat will have a bunch of cap room if Shawn Marion opts out ... but I don't think he will. A few other teams he Los Angeles Clippers, the Washington Wizards, the Charlotte Bobcats, the Seattle SuperSonics -- could create some cap room, but to do so they would have to let their major free agents walk away.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Stuckey (NY, NY): Why don't the Knicks fire Mills and Thomas and hire Colangelo? Kiki did not do well in the draft for the Nuggets (Melo was a gimme)and signed Kenyon Martin to a near max deal even though he came with injury concerns and was not a star player.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I read that bizarre report in the NY Daily News that Dolan wanted to hire Kiki as GM and keep Isiah on as coach. Can the Knicks get more dysfunctional? The problem is ... the really good candidates for the position don't want to take the job unless Dolan promises them full control over all aspects of the team. That's going to be a tough sell for Dolan. Kiki may be the one guy that will just be happy with the job. Personally ... I think Dolan has to realize he's made things worse not better and turn the team over to someone who knows how to rebuild. Jerry and Bryan Colangelo are both great gets. So is Donnie Walsh and Jerry West. But here's a guy no one is talking about ... why don't the Knicks try to make a run at the Blazers Kevin Pritchard. He's a young, up-and-coming GM who has a magic touch with the media and has just completely rebuild a shameful Blazers franchise into one of the league's up-and-coming teams. I think he'd be great.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Marcos(SJ): Some Draft Please...You have a great 20 minutes podcast with Thorpe talking about freshman a didn't even mention O.J. Mayo, have he fall so hard? Thanks Chad

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's fallen. Probably into the late lottery. I'd say somewhere between 8 to 12. He's had a good year ... so some of this is just based off not being able to live up high expectations. The other half is that he looks a little one dimensional right now. There's no question that O.J. has the chops to be a big time scorer in the league. But we're not seeing anything else ... poor defense, questionable leadership, no real rebounding, poor assist to turnover ratio. Is this guy Jerry Stackhouse?

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Juan, Miami: Chad, Who is a better pick for the Heat, Beasley or Derrick Rose and why ?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Tough one. Getting ready to debut our first mock draft of the year next week and I've been toying with this ... Rose is a bigger need and probably a surer thing. However, Beasley's got so much talent and he'd be an upgrade over Udonis Haslem. I'd probably go Beasley ... but Bill Simmons point about him in his last column is right. He worries people. The Derrick Coleman comparison is dead on. Amazing talent ... but scouts are uncomfortable about his off the court character issue and his commitment to the game. It will be very interesting to see how that unfolds over the course of the next few months.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Ryan (SLC): Chad, how high is Thabeet going to go in the draft? What would it take for a team like Utah to move up to get him? Does an '08 first, '10 first, and Milsap get it done? Would he be worth that to a team in desperate need of a defensive presence?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Wow ... Thabeet is a good shot blocker, but I don't think any team would give up two firsts and a guy like Milsap to get him. He's going to be a long term project in the pros. Long-term. He might pan out because of his shot blocking ability ... but he is far from a sure thing. He's probably a mid to late first rounder right now. However, knowing the draft process, he could rise higher. There seems to be irrational exuberance around big men in June.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Elie(PR): Why is Darrel Arthur so low on your board, he is putting good numbers on a great team what is it about him that you don't like? Thanks Chad

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's in the late lottery to mid first round. He's athletic ... but his rebounding numbers aren't special and he completely disappears from games. He has the talent, but scouts are waiting for him to put it together on a consistent basis. I agree that being on a loaded Kansas team hurts his stats, but watch him. He looks like he may need another year at KU.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Eric (Phoenix): Hi Chad! With the Suns getting Atlanta's pick this year, who do you think would best fit the team?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I think $3 million will be what fits in Sarver's plan based on past experience ...

Seriously, the Suns biggest problem, in my opinion, is that they've blown it with the draft the past few years. They've had several opportunities to add talented young players at low salaries (David West, Leandro Barbosa in 2003, Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala in 2004, Nate Robinson, David Lee in 2005, Rajon Rondo and Jordan Farmar in 2006 and they've come up empty. If they had just kept their draft picks or choose the right ones, they'd be the deepest team in the league and had zero need to make a gamble on a guy like Shaq.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Marcus (original home of the Grizzlies, Canada): What do you think of Bill Walker being drafted by the Raptors? Can he be the explosive wing that they so desperately need? Thanks Chad!

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Bill Walker's been compared to Vince Carter ... both for the good and the bad. If his knee is healthy ... he'll get a good look in the mid to late first round. But that's an if. He really seems like he could use a full year of being healthy to really get his stock back up.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's more like a late first rounder right now ... but another year at Vandy and he has a shot at the lottery. He's very skilled, but teams are, more and more, shying away from big guys who are super athletic.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jeff (AZ): Lot of talk about Bayless moving into the top 5 pick range, has his stock risen that much? Thanks.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's a hot name right now. We have him No. 6 on our big board and there are few scouts who prefer him to Indiana's Eric Gordon (who's No. 3). I think he's a lock for the Top 10 ... and Top 5 is possible. He's a great athlete, excellent shooter, gets to the rim and has shown that he can play some point (though I think he's more scorer than point guard). I think he's going to be a very good player ... maybe a Gilbert Arenas type of impact in the pros.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Sujei(SG): Hey Chad I see that Blake Griffin is moving up fast on your list, is he a Carlos Bozzer type or is that to much to ask? Thanks Man

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Scouts love him because of his toughness in the paint. He's still pretty raw if you push him out past 10 feet on the offensive end of the ball ... but almost all of them compare him to Boozer. Griffin is a Top 10 pick this year if he comes out ... but he's been signaling that he'll return to Oklahoma for his sophomore season. It would be a good decision too. I think he'd be a Top 5 candidate in 2009.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Dustin (Logan, UT): Chad, your take on Hardin this year, has his stock gone up or down and where to you see him being a good fit?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He hasn't done anything to really impress anyone. But he's big and athletic. That will get him drafted somewhere in the late first round.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">PaulieP (Scottsdale): Aren't NBA mocks nearly impossible, with the Lottery system?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: You haven't seen our system ... it calculates the odds of each team. So you play the lottery ... the computer simulates the draft lottery and then orders the mock draft. There's something like 2000+ combinations. It takes a while. It's fun to play and can give you a good early take on what teams might do depending on how the lottery shapes up.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Roger (Brooklyn): Hey Chad, What happened to Donte Greene? What hurt his stock the most?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Since we moved him up the board, he's gone ice cold from the field and his shot selection has been very questionable. I think he may have played himself out of the lottery the past few weeks.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jeff (NYC): On the other side of the pond --- more likely to pan out, Batum or Gallinari?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Gallinari has much more talent ... but he lacks great athleticism. Batum is an elite athlete, but he's still very raw in terms of skill level. Almost every scout I've spoken with prefers Gallinari ... however there are concerns that he might not want to play in the NBA.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Jeff (NYC): With the first pick in the 2008 NBA Draft, the New York Knicks select...

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: If Isiah's in charge? Probably Beasley. They desperately need a point guard and a leader. Unless they trade Zach, it would be years before Beasley would be as productive.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">kyle (minneapolis): Me and my friends are hoping you can settle this for us, if the twolves get number three and miss out on beasely and rose, who do they take?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: DeAndre Jordan of Texas A&M or Brook Lopez of Stanford. Those two big guys will be battling it out for the first center off the board.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Josue(PN): Hey Chad You din't answered who the Suns should draft? Do you think they have to get a backup for Nash? Thanks Mr. Ford

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: They actually need help everywhere. A center (Shaq isn't going to play forever), a Shawn Marion replacement, a younger two guard and a back-up for Nash. At this point I just think they take the best player available ... they have a lot of needs and keep passing on filling them in the draft.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Mike (San Francisco, CA): Do you think Brook Lopez's stock is as high as it will get, or would he be best served to stay in college for another year?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's No. 5 on our big board. I don't think he'll get much higher.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Dee (Greenville, NC): Do you think JJ Hickson has lottery talent right now? I think he's a guy that if he plays against the top low post guys like Beasley he would definitely hold his own.....saying that I hope he comes back another year to polish his game.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I really like Hickson. Good NBA body, good rebounder, efficient scorer. He's playing on a bad team at NC State which hurts him, but scouts are interested. Late lottery maybe. More likely 15-22 range.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Rob: What about Anthony Randolph? Why wouldn't you take him ahead of Galinari or Batum?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He's No. 7 on our big board, ahead of both Gallinari and Batum. I think he's the sleeper on the draft. Not every NBA scout is talking about him, but those that are see him as one of the elite prospects in the draft -- kind of a LaMarcus Aldridge or Chris Bosh type four. I think there's a chance, when all is said and done, that he's a Top 5 pick -- and yes, given the craziness at LSU this year, I think he declares.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">DJ (Portland, OR): Where do you see Kevin Love eventually being drafted and how will his skills translate to the NBA?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He'll be drafted. Some scouts have him in the lottery this year. Others in the 20s. He has such a great basketball IQ for a big man and he's such a great passer that scouts can help but like him. But his lack of explosiveness and lack of size for his position will hurt him the same way it hurts UNC's Tyler Hansbrough.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Nick (NYC): WHat's your take on Russell Westbrook? I think he's Leandro Barbosa meets Rajon Rondo. I like him more than Derrick Rose. He's just as athletic, better defender, and seems to play harder. Your thoughts?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: Next to Randolph, he's my second sleeper. He's been No. 12 on our big board for the past few weeks and I think he'll crack the Top 10 by draft night. Great size, athleticism, energy. He's the best pro prospect on UCLA. Scouts have been a little late getting to the party, but the house is crowded now. No way he slips past Portland on draft night if he declares ... he'd be perfect for them.

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1" width="80%">Chris (Austin): Do you think that DJ Augustin will/should delcare for the draft and if he does where do you put him on your big board?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: He'll battle Westbrook for the next point guard off the board after Rose and Jerry Bayless. He's such a great leader on the floor, has a silky smooth jumper and really knows how to balance between scoring and getting others involved. If he was three inches taller, he'd be ahead of Rose on the draft boards. Right now he's No. 11 on our board.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: I've got to run everyone ... great chat.

d_c
02-28-2008, 07:22 PM
4

1993 - Allan Houston, #11
1996 - Kobe Bryant, #13
1996 - Peja Stojakovic, #14
1996 - Steve Nash, #15

The prior 5 picks, #6-10, have 13 All-Stars in that same time. Still not a lot, but much better than 4.

The top-5 picks over the past 15 drafts have produced a whopping 31 All-Stars and counting (Oden, Durant, D. Williams etc.).

Good detective work. Interesting that it's been quite awhile since it's happened.

Major Cold
02-28-2008, 07:24 PM
I started this thread to bring the traffic regarding the draft and prospects. As Pacer fans we would no doubt look at the draft for our benefit. I can see us drafting 6-15 depending if JO and Tins come back and everything goes back to the way it was before they left.

I really see us drafting a wing or a big Man. Bayless and Rose are the only true PGs that I want to draft 2-20. Bantum would not work out here and Galihari (whatever it is) would constipate the SF position even more. Thabeet and Hibbert both seem a real choice for TPTP.
Who we can draft can be determined by how the prospects do in the Tourney. Remember that Noah was looked at being the third propsect at the start of last season. Brandon Wright's stock climb around the sweet 16 and dropped after they lost. The Jeff Green saga was a bit too much. For me going into the tourney Oden did not have the top pick locked all around. Imagine if Durant carried the Aggies into the Elite 8 and Oden choked in the second round.

For me I think what needs to happen is fan support needs to get better. In order for that to happen the enviroment has to change. Would the results of Thabeet be better than getting into the second round of the playoffs? Getting into the second round may be a stretch, but not any more of a stretch than a Thabeet saving our franchise.

CableKC
02-28-2008, 07:34 PM
Any one have access to Chad Ford's Mock Draft?

About his comments regarding Mayo.....if all he is good for is scoring...then I pass.

CableKC
02-28-2008, 07:46 PM
For me I think what needs to happen is fan support needs to get better. In order for that to happen the enviroment has to change. Would the results of Thabeet be better than getting into the second round of the playoffs? Getting into the second round may be a stretch, but not any more of a stretch than a Thabeet saving our franchise.
I'm confused....are you talking about getting into the 2nd round of this years' playoffs?

IMHO...I can hope that we somehow draft a player that can be a Franchise player....but I'm not expecting anything more then getting a player that will fix one of the many weaknesses that this team has.

Whoever we draft ( assuming that we don't do something stupid like drafting Bantum or Gallinari ) will likely be talented enough to help us get better for the long-term. If we draft Thabeet.....I know that he maybe a project and that he won't be a Franchise saver....but I know that he will likely fix one of the huge holes that we have right now in our Frontcourt.

Kofi
02-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Damn, Russell Westbrook sure sounds interesting for us. I hadn't really heard the name until recently, I don't know much about him.

His numbers don't look bad at all. Both his 4.8 apg and his 1.78 a/to ratio is better than what Bayless or Rose is putting up. Good fg%, decent 3%. Very good size (6'3" 189) and looks like an athletic freak. If we're picking in the 8-10 range and the top prospects are gone, I'd have no problem going with this guy.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ACPU-y0JuOg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ACPU-y0JuOg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

pwee31
02-28-2008, 08:59 PM
Damn, Russell Westbrook sure sounds interesting for us. I hadn't really heard the name until recently, I don't know much about him.

His numbers don't look bad at all. Both his 4.8 apg and his 1.78 a/to ratio is better than what Bayless or Rose is putting up. Good fg%, decent 3%. Very good size (6'3" 189) and looks like an athletic freak. If we're picking in the 8-10 range and the top prospects are gone, I'd have no problem going with this guy.


<OBJECT height=355 width=425>

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ACPU-y0JuOg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></OBJECT></P>

Yeah I hadn't really heard of him either. I think I recall him a little vs. IU last year in tourney.

I see a few of the mocks have us selecting him. Not sure what's he about, since I don't get to watch the Pac 10 often.

I thought UCLA started Collison and Shipp at the guard positions? Is he even a starter?

Part of me wants us to get Dj Augustine. Not sure how good he'll be, but watching Durant, Aldridge, Gibson and Tj Ford makes picking a Longhorn look like a good idea :laugh:

Mr. Sobchak
02-28-2008, 09:30 PM
I haven't given him much thought but after researching I gotta say sign me up for the russell westbrook bandwagon.

Will Galen
02-28-2008, 11:06 PM
Any one have access to Chad Ford's Mock Draft?



It's next week.

RomanGabriel
02-28-2008, 11:38 PM
Beasley is getting to be a lock for #1 pick. But if we can keep the momentum and continue moving down, the guy I'd LOVE to get now that I've seen more of him is Jerrod Bayless. He's obviously not there yet, but he's looking a lot like a cross of the two best young point guards in the world, Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Great athleticism and scoring ability a la Paul and the tools to be a solid lockdown defender like Williams. And I still think Mayo will be a solid pro.

croz24
02-29-2008, 01:35 AM
if we are going to base a player's ability on statistics, i could name you 50+ players in college right now with better stats than westbrook...i think we ought to make a rule that you may only comment on a prospect who you've watched play at least twice (and even that's not a high number)...

Jose Slaughter
02-29-2008, 02:13 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19129&draftyear=2008

O.J. Mayo Draft Bio

O.J. Mayo
Shooting Guard (Rank: #10) | 6-4, 195 | Age: 20
USC (Freshman)
Hometown: Huntington, W.V.

Draft Projection: Top 10

Similarities:

Notes: Averaged 29.6 points, 5.0 rebounds and 4.9 assists as a high school senior.

Positives: Big-time combo guard with excellent size, scoring ability and handle. Excellent penetrator with quick first step. Good finisher around the basket. Has deep range on his jump shot, but streaky. NBA-ready body. Excellent strength.

Negatives: Lacks a developed midrange game. Doesn't always show up on the defensive end. Has been pegged by scouts as a potential point guard, but seems to lack the decision making skills or feel to run the point. Has had some off-court issues. Teams worry that his ego is overinflated with all of the hype since eighth grade. A year older than everyone else in his class.

Summary: Mayo is having a solid USC, but scouts are still trying to figure out what he actually is. It's clear he's going to be a great NBA scorer ... but will he give a team anything else?

Kofi
02-29-2008, 06:54 AM
if we are going to base a player's ability on statistics, i could name you 50+ players in college right now with better stats than westbrook...i think we ought to make a rule that you may only comment on a prospect who you've watched play at least twice (and even that's not a high number)...

Westbrook is doing it in America's toughest conference, the Pac-10, as a sophomore. He also has above average NBA size and way above average NBA athleticism, which is why scouts think he could be just as good and eventually better in the NBA. That's what separates him from the second round, future Euroleaguers like Sean Singletary, Jamont "Turnover" Gordon etc..

Rajah Brown
02-29-2008, 07:34 AM
Re: Westbrook - See post #232 in this thread.

Anyway, half-kidding, self-administered atta-boys aside, I'm
encouraged that Ford's contacts also love Westbrook. If the
Pacers can just keep from screwing things up and secure a
draft slot in the #7-9 range, one of EJ, Bayless or Westbrook
should still be on the board. Or, worst case, they shouldn't
have to move up more than a slot or two to get one of them.

Mourning
02-29-2008, 12:35 PM
Any chance we could aquire a middle or late first rounder for Shawne or move up 2 or 3 spots with our own pick? Especially if we sideline him for say 5 games and then play him extensively (i.o. "showcase" him) fro the remainder of the season?

croz24
02-29-2008, 01:44 PM
Westbrook is doing it in America's toughest conference, the Pac-10, as a sophomore. He also has above average NBA size and way above average NBA athleticism, which is why scouts think he could be just as good and eventually better in the NBA. That's what separates him from the second round, future Euroleaguers like Sean Singletary, Jamont "Turnover" Gordon etc..

and you've seen him play how many times...? i did not bring up singletary in my post, i just find it funny that people on here on suddenly raving about a kid just because nbadraft.net had him going top or based on his statistics. westbrook has one year of scoring 12ppg and pders are enamored with him. for those who HAVE seen him play understand he is NOT a pg. which means he is a 6'3 SG. he has athleticism sure, but he is a product of the talent around him and does not have the shooting or overall game to be a sg in the nba. roderick wilmont was a better player than westbrook.

Mr. Sobchak
02-29-2008, 03:35 PM
and you've seen him play how many times...? i did not bring up singletary in my post, i just find it funny that people on here on suddenly raving about a kid just because nbadraft.net had him going top or based on his statistics. westbrook has one year of scoring 12ppg and pders are enamored with him. for those who HAVE seen him play understand he is NOT a pg. which means he is a 6'3 SG. he has athleticism sure, but he is a product of the talent around him and does not have the shooting or overall game to be a sg in the nba. roderick wilmont was a better player than westbrook.

I've seen him play once and I liked what I saw but that being said im not really so interested in him for his numbers at UCLA. The kid looks like he has the physical tools to be a great on ball defender and scorer at the next level. I really think his best atribute is his athleticism. If he works on his ball handling some more I see no reason why he couldn't become a great point guard.

croz24
02-29-2008, 04:24 PM
that's fine but mr. westbrook is NOT a pg and will not be tall or strong enough to be a decent sg in the nba...westbrook is the kind of guy you take a chance on late in the 1st...just don't waste a top 10 pick on him...especially since this is the 1st year he's ever received any sort of accolades for his play...

CableKC
02-29-2008, 04:38 PM
[url]Negatives: Lacks a developed midrange game. Doesn't always show up on the defensive end. Has been pegged by scouts as a potential point guard, but seems to lack the decision making skills or feel to run the point. Has had some off-court issues. Teams worry that his ego is overinflated with all of the hype since eighth grade. A year older than everyone else in his class.

Summary: Mayo is having a solid USC, but scouts are still trying to figure out what he actually is. It's clear he's going to be a great NBA scorer ... but will he give a team anything else?
If the Pacers have the 9th or 10th pick in the draft.....given these very reasons.....I would not pick Mayo.

We have enough offense.....we need a player that has some inclination to defend opposing players.

jmoney2584
02-29-2008, 04:45 PM
that's fine but mr. westbrook is NOT a pg and will not be tall or strong enough to be a decent sg in the nba...westbrook is the kind of guy you take a chance on late in the 1st...just don't waste a top 10 pick on him...especially since this is the 1st year he's ever received any sort of accolades for his play...

AKA a Fred Jones type- Count me out on Westbrook. Maybe if we got a late first on the side, but then I can still think of people going late I would rather have.

Major Cold
02-29-2008, 04:55 PM
I'm confused....are you talking about getting into the 2nd round of this years' playoffs?

IMHO...I can hope that we somehow draft a player that can be a Franchise player....but I'm not expecting anything more then getting a player that will fix one of the many weaknesses that this team has.

Whoever we draft ( assuming that we don't do something stupid like drafting Bantum or Gallinari ) will likely be talented enough to help us get better for the long-term. If we draft Thabeet.....I know that he maybe a project and that he won't be a Franchise saver....but I know that he will likely fix one of the huge holes that we have right now in our Frontcourt.

Generally speaking people have hinted that the prospect that we select could be the Savior of the franchise. What I merely suggest is that defeating an opponent that we have no buisness of beating, to get in the second round would have a better long range result than a Thabeet (especially if our pick drops enough to get Love). Getting a franchise guy in the draft would be nice, but how did that work out for the Wolves? My point is that it is going to take more than one pick to turn this around. For me it is going to take more than personnel. It starts at the top. The pieces have to fall in place. And that should start at the top.

Just looking at the talent in the first round picks 10-14, do you see a player that would help us more than getting to the playoffs? I believe that getting to the playoffs and drafting 15-20 would be better than missing and getting a slightly better "prospect".

Major Cold
02-29-2008, 05:06 PM
I remember when Marvin Williams came out everyone was fizated on his productiion at UNC, off of the bench. He is playing well, but it is clear that the Hawks should have drafted Paul or Williams.

I see the same with Westbrook. I like him and I would rather have him over Thabeet. But I would rather have Bayless and Rose. And if we can't get them then I would still take Gordon.

Mr. Sobchak
02-29-2008, 05:30 PM
I remember when Marvin Williams came out everyone was fizated on his productiion at UNC, off of the bench. He is playing well, but it is clear that the Hawks should have drafted Paul or Williams.

I see the same with Westbrook. I like him and I would rather have him over Thabeet. But I would rather have Bayless and Rose. And if we can't get them then I would still take Gordon.


What if all three are off the board?

Major Cold
02-29-2008, 05:36 PM
Then Lopez, Jordan, or that WEstbrook kid.

I would think that the Pacers would select Bantum or Galirharininja.

CableKC
02-29-2008, 06:23 PM
Then Lopez, Jordan, or that WEstbrook kid.

I would think that the Pacers would select Bantum or Galirharininja.
Lopez won't be on the board by the time the Pacers draft....maybe DeAndre Jordan....but I'm with those that really wonder about Westbrook. He's been playing, but hasn't really popped onto anyone's radar until recently...which I'm kind of concerned that he's more of a "flash in the pan" as opposed to a talent that has been making waves for awhile.

As for Bantum or Gallinari.......they are European and play the SF positions......I wouldn't be surprised if Bird was thinking that we needed more of those in our lineup. :buddies:

Kofi
02-29-2008, 06:56 PM
that's fine but mr. westbrook is NOT a pg and will not be tall or strong enough to be a decent sg in the nba...westbrook is the kind of guy you take a chance on late in the 1st...just don't waste a top 10 pick on him...especially since this is the 1st year he's ever received any sort of accolades for his play...

I don't see why he can't eventually be a PG in the NBA. His apg are solid, and more importantly, his assist-to-turnover ratio is solid. He's just a college sophomore who barely played his freshman season, so it's likely we've only seen the tip of the iceberg as to what he can do.


He is averaging 5.7 assists while playing off of the ball for the most part, leaving one to ponder what he could be able to do with the ball in his hands for the entire game. His court vision isn’t spectacular by any stretch, but he does a good job playing within UCLA’s system, and finding the many weapons he has around him within their set offense.

As for the whole "you haven't seen him so you don't know" argument....I've never bought it. I can tell plenty from accurately reading his stats, looking at his size and level of competition, and of course reading scouting reports. A lot of fans like to believe they're scouting guru's who can watch 3-4 games and tell you everything about a player. I call those people delusional, but I digress.

The scouts are warming up to him for a reason, and it's not just NBADraft.net but Chad Ford as well. What he did last year means jack squat now. He was a freshman on a loaded squad and he barely played. Now that he's getting minutes, he's delivering the goods, and NBA scouts are taking notice. I probably wouldn't take him over Mayo, Gordon, Bayless, Rose, Beasley, Lopez, Randolph, Jordan or Greene - but if all of those players are off the board/don't declare, and Westbrook is there, I wouldn't have second thoughts about taking him, unless he's a complete dud in pre-draft workouts or suffers a major injury between now and the draft. And if he plays strong the rest of the season and/or has an amazing workout, I could see taking him before some of the aforementioned players.


Here's a scouting report on his strengths, that was written BEFORE the season, back when he was coming off a 9 mpg freshman season, when his NBA stock was much lower than it is now...


Strengths: Athletic and explosive combo guard with the length to make up for his lack of height … Attacks the basket with a lethal first step and crossover ability … Can handle the rock well and gets into the lane effortlessly … Finishes well at the rim and is unafraid to go up in traffic … Huge wingspan allows him to play much bigger than his 6-3 height … Gets good lift on his jumpshot and has a quick release … Solid passer with unselfishness, always looks for the open man … Has an excellent mid-range game … A gym rat, really works hard to improve … Has a great attitude, extremely coach-able … Has the potential to be a bigtime scorer when given the chance … Really excels defensively and has a chance to develop into a great defender … His anticipation for steals and his on ball defensive ability are special … Solid passer who shows the ability to play the point guard position..

Sounds to me like the exact type of player we need badly.

pwee31
02-29-2008, 08:35 PM
One thing you want to look for is winners!

Once it's draft time and you have players in for workouts, you go by what you need, and who you think will fit, but you also want to pick winners.

Most of the guys... keyword: most, that are in the NBA, have done something special come tourney time, and helped lead their teams deep into the playoffs.

I'm not talking guys that can score only, but guys that just seem to put on a show and carry a team in the NCAAs.

They won't all amount, but that's a thing to look at as well.

croz24
02-29-2008, 11:52 PM
Kofi - i seem to agree with you completely when it comes to what this franchise needs and how they should go about improving the team...i also feel we both have a great understanding of the types of players that could make the pacers a contender again...however, i disagree entirely with anyone who thinks russell westbrook should be the pacers 1st round draft pick in 2008 (if he even declares). westbrook is not a great ball handler, can't shoot very well from range, is small and thin, does have a high assist average considering his position but much of that imo can be attributed to the team around him. he merely goes through the SYSTEM to get his assists as opposed to playmaking ability. for me to even consider him on the pacers he would need to be the leader and team carrier on ucla next year without love, collison, mbah a moute, and possibly shipp. and i highly doubt he even comes out this year b/c i think scouts will feel the same way...

jmoney2584
03-01-2008, 07:22 AM
I don't see why he can't eventually be a PG in the NBA. His apg are solid, and more importantly, his assist-to-turnover ratio is solid. He's just a college sophomore who barely played his freshman season, so it's likely we've only seen the tip of the iceberg as to what he can do.



As for the whole "you haven't seen him so you don't know" argument....I've never bought it. I can tell plenty from accurately reading his stats, looking at his size and level of competition, and of course reading scouting reports. A lot of fans like to believe they're scouting guru's who can watch 3-4 games and tell you everything about a player. I call those people delusional, but I digress.

The scouts are warming up to him for a reason, and it's not just NBADraft.net but Chad Ford as well. What he did last year means jack squat now. He was a freshman on a loaded squad and he barely played. Now that he's getting minutes, he's delivering the goods, and NBA scouts are taking notice. I probably wouldn't take him over Mayo, Gordon, Bayless, Rose, Beasley, Lopez, Randolph, Jordan or Greene - but if all of those players are off the board/don't declare, and Westbrook is there, I wouldn't have second thoughts about taking him, unless he's a complete dud in pre-draft workouts or suffers a major injury between now and the draft. And if he plays strong the rest of the season and/or has an amazing workout, I could see taking him before some of the aforementioned players.


Here's a scouting report on his strengths, that was written BEFORE the season, back when he was coming off a 9 mpg freshman season, when his NBA stock was much lower than it is now...



Sounds to me like the exact type of player we need badly.

I've watched about 5-6 UCLA games this year and while yes Westbrook is as athletic as all hell, and plays some seriously stifling defense...he just doesn't have the vision and leadership abilities of a good pg. If you watch how DJ Augustin or Rose control the game and open people up, he doesn't have that. His assists come during fst breaks and quick gimmes. He has no playmaking skills in the half court. He won't translate into a PG, he has Fred Jones syndrome.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 08:07 AM
Everything I'm reading is stating that he's a point guard, so with all due respect, I'll take the majority of the draft experts opinion over yours and croz24's.

I think a lot of the anti-Westbrook sentiment is the fact that he's not a "sexy" name. He's not Mayo, he's not Rose, he's not even Gordon. When I first went to NBADraft.net and saw he was penciled in as going to Indiana at #9, I felt the same way. However after reading what experts have to say regarding his game, and accurately analyzing his stats, I've come to the conclusion that he would be a fantastic pick up for us. I have a hunch by the early part of April, a lot more people will be talking about this Westbrook kid.

Major Cold
03-01-2008, 10:06 AM
Reading reports are fine. But you have to see him life and in game situations. Stats do not mean a thing if we do not know what scenario they are in. To understand the scenario completely you have WATCH A GAME. I read the reports and make judgements as well. But not with the discernment of you Kofi. That is your choice. Westbrook will be a project at PG. It would be better for him to stay one more year and showcase his PG skills without Collinson. Who knows maybe he showcases them in the tourney. But at this point I am not willing take him with other players on the board.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 02:23 PM
Westbrook, PG? Not even close. To me he plays a college SG/SF tweener. Shipp plays the more traditional 2 and obviously Collison is the 1 for that team.

Whatever Westbrook does with the ball is dwarfed by how Collison plays at PG, and I think Collison is overrated somewhat. But with Collison I can see him as at least a backup PG.

Westbrook might be a better player than Fred Jones (hard to be sure) but he's still in that vein I think.

Not a sexy name? Um, people notice him. The UCLA guys are all getting notice, even the bench guys. Westbrook is considered a better prospect than Shipp and probably 3rd on the team after Love and Collison.

I agree with 'cold that he would be better served to stay another year.


His assists come during fst breaks and quick gimmes. He has no playmaking skills in the half court.
Exactly.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 02:27 PM
if we are going to base a player's ability on statistics, i could name you 50+ players in college right now with better stats than westbrook...i think we ought to make a rule that you may only comment on a prospect who you've watched play at least twice (and even that's not a high number)...
I agree. That's exactly why I've gone out of my way to make the time on these guys. It really changes your view of the draft. And when I watch I really just focus on the potential prospects. Westbrook, like Austrie (UConn) as well, stood out just in the course of watching other players, so I put him on my radar. Price, I only noticed him while watching Thabeet, but it stood out pretty quickly, and then in turn I noticed Austrie.

I do think that if you watch 4-5 games of a guy, at least in quality games, you start to see who stands out as clearly better than the rest even if the numbers don't always pan out. This is why a guy like Mayo stays toward the top of the boards.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 02:38 PM
No offense Seth, but I'll take the multiple draft experts opinions over your very amateur opinion.

If Chad Ford and Draft Express say Russell Westbrook is a point guard, then Russell Westbrook is a point guard, end of discussion.

And if he's not a point guard (experts say he is), yet is still picking up 5 apg with a decent a/to ratio at a very young 19, then the potential to be a point guard is there no question about it. He's being compared to Monta Ellis - sounds about right to me. Sign me up, and keep the one-dimensional, chubby, undersized turnover machine Eric Gordon as far away from the blue & gold as possible.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 02:45 PM
For those saying a pick in the 11-15 range is just as good as a top-10 pick, can you answer this question? In the past 15 drafts, 93-07, how many players drafted between 11-15 (75 players total) have made at least one All-Star team?

If you don't feel like looking it up, just give it your best guess.
Wait a second, aren't we talking about who the Pacers COULD have at 11-15? So what about the all-stars that went past 15 too? I mean so JO doesn't count simply because the top 10 teams also passed over Nash, Kobe and Peja and they got taken first?

Gee, poor Pacers at 12 have to choose between Kobe, Nash, Peja or JO. I sure wish they'd tanked to get up to Kerry Kittles.

The amount of all-stars in the Pacers best range 7-10 isn't all that impressive either, and in all cases a lot depends on the depth of the draft. This year appears to have decent depth. And the depth last year was slightly hyped due to Durant/Oden.

I mean Acie Law was the 2nd PG off the board?

(rant about last year's draft hype)
Everyone wanted to say it was a double class but of course that's not true. No one extra was in the draft because NO HIGH SCHOOL players were there. The "bonus" class won't happen till they undo the rule and you get both the 1 year college kids AND the newly allowed HS players in the same class.

The bad side of the bonus was the year they didn't let HS kids in for the first time, cutting out a chunk of players that would have just come straight out. After that the cycle was back on normal and will be till they undo it as I mentioned. People turned "normal" into "bonus".

The only bonus players last year were the FLA kids who decided to stay for a 2nd run at the title. They were the guys that normally wouldn't have been there, not Oden/Durant.

Having said all that, the draft THIS year could get shallow if some guys choose to stay. Keep guys like Rush, Chalmers, Westbrook, Thabeet, Love and even Beasley in for another year and the draft gets thin in a hurry.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Wait a second, aren't we talking about who the Pacers COULD have at 11-15? So what about the all-stars that went past 15 too? I mean so JO doesn't count simply because the top 10 teams also passed over Nash, Kobe and Peja and they got taken first?

And yet the combined talent of the first 10 picks in the average draft dwarfs the combined talent of the next 50 selections.

Sure it's possible to find talent outside of the top-10, but with 50 non-top-10 picks per draft, someone good is bound to slip through the cracks. But good luck finding that diamond in the rough. I'll take my choice of top-tier talent via a top-10 pick.

jmoney2584
03-01-2008, 03:02 PM
No offense Seth, but I'll take the multiple draft experts opinions over your very amateur opinion.

If Chad Ford and Draft Express say Russell Westbrook is a point guard, then Russell Westbrook is a point guard, end of discussion.

And if he's not a point guard (experts say he is), yet is still picking up 5 apg with a decent a/to ratio at a very young 19, then the potential to be a point guard is there no question about it. He's being compared to Monta Ellis - sounds about right to me. Sign me up, and keep the one-dimensional, chubby, undersized turnover machine Eric Gordon as far away from the blue & gold as possible.

Yea I wouldn't take Westbrook over EJ as a future PG ever. EJ just needs to work on his ball handling skills a little and he will be fine because his ability to create is very good. You obviously haven't watched many IU OR UCLA games this year. Kofi I have always respected your posts and generally agree with you on most things (tanking, roster management, etc.) but I have to disagree on this Westbrook thing good sir.

...oh yea..and chubby? That's just a cheap shot with no merit. Your buddy Chad Ford thinks he is all muscle...I thought you took his word over god ;)

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 03:02 PM
No offense Seth, but I'll take the multiple draft experts opinions over your very amateur opinion.

If Chad Ford and Draft Express say Russell Westbrook is a point guard, then Russell Westbrook is a point guard, end of discussion.

And if he's not a point guard (experts say he is), yet is still picking up 5 apg with a decent a/to ratio at a very young 19, then the potential to be a point guard is there no question about it. He's being compared to Monta Ellis - sounds about right to me. Sign me up, and keep the one-dimensional, chubby, undersized turnover machine Eric Gordon as far away from the blue & gold as possible.
Yes, let's listen to the experts...


In addition to his poor ball-handling skills, his mid-range game is fairly poor, and he avoids using his left hand as much as possible.
...
His court vision isn’t spectacular by any stretch...

The explosiveness that he possesses directly translates into his ability to get to the rim, where he has shown no problem converting in transition when presented with the opportunity. In traffic he seems to struggle a bit, though, as he’s often out of control by the time he reaches the basket

He could certainly use another year (or even two) of college basketball to gain more experience at the point guard position

Because that in no way matches the parts where any of us have said "PG like Fred Jones was a PG", right down to the going left aspect. He never "runs point". They will two man game him and especially like him in an iso to get his own shot, but as we've said he gets a lot of assists in the break/open court.

His issue is that UCLA's recruit class features some strong PG prospects. Now isn't it funny that a stud "PG" would have to worry about some incoming talent bumping him out of PG playing time? I mean this is the scouts saying this and I heard a similar comment a few weeks ago while watching a UCLA game.

He's not ahead of Collison AT UCLA for PG, and Collison is not a top 10 PG pick. When you see him play then you get a different interpretation of what the experts are saying, which is why you think that they are on your side and not ours.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 03:16 PM
Those are common issues with young point guards, especially those in the process of converting to the position full-time. Given his age and experience level, I'm not too concerned about it. His assist-to-turnover ratio is the most important thing to me, and I'm satisfied with it, and scouts seem to be as well as he's moving into the top-10 in a lot of mock drafts.

jmoney2584
03-01-2008, 03:25 PM
Those are common issues with young point guards, especially those in the process of converting to the position full-time. Given his age and experience level, I'm not too concerned about it. His assist-to-turnover ratio is the most important thing to me, and I'm satisfied with it, and scouts seem to be as well as he's moving into the top-10 in a lot of mock drafts.

Well Troy Murphy has the same, even slightly better, assist-turnover ratio as Westbrook. Why don't we just save ourselves the pick for someone more talented and run Murphy at the point...I mean..stats are all that matters right? Not watching the games or anything...

Kofi
03-01-2008, 03:25 PM
I asked about Westbrook over at the Real GM draft board. There are people there that eat, sleep, and breath college basketball, and have for years, so there should be some interesting takes on his game. LINK (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=15682800#15682800)

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 03:26 PM
And yet the combined talent of the first 10 picks in the average draft dwarfs the combined talent of the next 50 selections.

Sure it's possible to find talent outside of the top-10, but with 50 non-top-10 picks per draft, someone good is bound to slip through the cracks. But good luck finding that diamond in the rough. I'll take my choice of top-tier talent via a top-10 pick.
Yet the combined talent of the first 5 picks dwarfs the combined talent of the next 50 as well.

But 6-10 does NOT dwarf the rest of the draft. I already went down this road with Jose and put together an all-star team of just single picks from post 15 the last 12 years in contrast to taking them from 7-14. If you are changing that to 6-10 vs everyone else it's not nearly as good as you are suggesting.

Without posting them all, a quick look at 7-10 picks the last 15 years shows you have maybe a 1 in 4 chance of getting a quality player that lasts a few years, and far less than that are all-star talent.

Just about as many future all-stars or starters are on the board still at 15 than were taken at 7-10, let alone adding in the guys at 11-14 as well.

The fact is that outside of the top 5-6 it's pretty spotty. Is your pick the next Tmac or the next Danny Fortson? Odds say Fortson, despite having a top 10 pick.


I mean even the guys some of us are hyping are going to be those busts. I understand that. I'm not sure you do when you talk up the #8 pick as a "top 10" with all the success rates that come with "top 10". Westbrook, Augustin, Thabeet - these are the future draft busts, or so the odds say.

Kraft
03-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Poor ball-handling skills are a problem for good point guard prospects?

Yikes. Not a point guard I want on my team.

jmoney2584
03-01-2008, 03:27 PM
OK you said "Real GM" ...stop right there...no credibility.Everone on this board lives and breathes the game just as much as those chubs and we do it classier. Real GM has no clout.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 03:32 PM
Those are common issues with young point guards, especially those in the process of converting to the position full-time. Given his age and experience level, I'm not too concerned about it. His assist-to-turnover ratio is the most important thing to me, and I'm satisfied with it, and scouts seem to be as well as he's moving into the top-10 in a lot of mock drafts.
Why are you converting him when Augustin and Bayless and Collison already do these things?

His assist to TO ratio is a product of when and what he's asked to do with the ball. He's NOT the main ball handler. Do the stats show you minutes per game he's dribbling vs other players? No. WATCHING does.

As was pointed out, Troy has a nice A/TO...because he either drives for his own bucket occasionally or just passes the ball on. He is not asked to create offense for other players and he is NOT the focal point on their offense, Love and Collison are.

And I LIKE Westbrook's game even. I just have yet to see a single moment where I thought anything other than quick SG that's a strong athlete. And that does describe Fred Jones too. And Fred wasn't exactly a bust, just not a PG like was envisioned BY THE EXPERTS in his scouting report.

Could he be a PG? Perhaps, but he's already a dribble-drive SG that defends well and likes to run. It's like hoping Thabeet will become Hakeem in the post. Hey, they are both athletic and big right?

LoneGranger33
03-01-2008, 03:54 PM
BC vs. UNC - number 2 in the country - right now on ABC.

Tyrese Rice already has 14 points on 5 of 5 shooting.

croz24
03-01-2008, 04:03 PM
real gm is nothing but 10-16yr olds...but tyrese rice is putting on a SHOW right now against unc...think he's at 22pts with 12min left in the 1ST HALF!!!

LoneGranger33
03-01-2008, 04:05 PM
We'll probably lose because Hansborough is like the Dwayne Wade of the NCAA, but he's got 23 points right now - almost nine minutes into the game.

JayRedd
03-01-2008, 04:38 PM
Is this guy serious? 34 in the first half?

LoneGranger33
03-01-2008, 04:42 PM
Ok, he's 8 of 10 from beyond the three-point line, though to be fair, his two misses were from 32 feet and 60 feet - all this at the end of the first half.

10/16 shooting
8/10 3pt
Only 1 assist, but he should have about 4 by now if our players didn't get fouled or made open shots.

34 points

Kofi
03-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Why are you converting him when Augustin and Bayless and Collison already do these things?

Bayless is a stud, if we're in position to take him then I wish Russell Westbrook well in his non-Pacer NBA career. Of course he's a top-5 lock, so unless we get lucky, that aint gonna happen. As for taking Westbrook over Augustin or Collison - I've never said that. Of course I've never said take Augustin or Collison over Westbrook, either. We have a long ways to go until the draft. Let's see how the rest of the season plays out, and how pre-draft camps and measurements go. As of right now, I'm leaning towards Westbrook over Augustin and Collison due to his Derrick Rose-like size and athleticism, combined with his promising skill set.


As was pointed out, Troy has a nice A/TO...because he either drives for his own bucket occasionally or just passes the ball on. He is not asked to create offense for other players and he is NOT the focal point on their offense, Love and Collison are.

Westbrook is leading UCLA in assists. Yes, he averages more assists per game than fellow top-20 NBA prospect, Darren Collison. He's leading the team in assists and is just 1.7 points behind second leading scorer Collison, all while playing slightly less minutes per game...sounds like he plays a pretty big part in the offense to me. And if he's this prolific while being such a minuet part of UCLA's offense, as you're implying, than that only makes his production all the more intriguing.


And I LIKE Westbrook's game even. I just have yet to see a single moment where I thought anything other than quick SG that's a strong athlete. And that does describe Fred Jones too. And Fred wasn't exactly a bust, just not a PG like was envisioned BY THE EXPERTS in his scouting report.

Fred's high in assists was 3.4 per game as a junior, well short of what Westbrook is producing this season. Did I mention he also averaged a whopping 3 turnovers per game that season? His next season (senior) both his assists (3.2) and TOs (2.3) went down. Both his junior and senior seasons were played with NBA lottery pick Luke Ridnour starting at the point.

Can you please show me, with links as evidence, what draft experts considered Fred Jones an NBA PG coming out of Oregon? All I ever read was undersized SG, which is why he was projected as a late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder and which is why we took him with our 1st rounder when we had Jamaal Tinsley coming off a fantastic rookie season.

LINK 1 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/story?id=1399492)
LINK 2 (http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/frederickjones.htm)
LINK 3 (http://www.nba.com/draft2002/profiles/position.html)
LINK 4 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/draft/draftboard/players/2051179.html)
LINK 5 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/tracker/position)



Could he be a PG? Perhaps, but he's already a dribble-drive SG that defends well and likes to run. It's like hoping Thabeet will become Hakeem in the post. Hey, they are both athletic and big right?

That analogy is a ridiculous exaggeration and we both know it, so I'll leave it at that.

You don't average 5 assists per game without having something going for you in the playmaking department. You can't put it all on simple outlet passes, and fastbreaks, it just doesn't compute. There are people out there that scout for a living, and have for years, and if they're saying Westbrook is an NBA point guard, what reason do I have to doubt them? I respect your opinion, but not over the aforementioned scouts.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 05:24 PM
real gm is nothing but 10-16yr olds...but tyrese rice is putting on a SHOW right now against unc...think he's at 22pts with 12min left in the 1ST HALF!!!

Not even close. The guys who run Draft Express originally came from Real GM and the sites have a working relationship together. The NBA Draft forum at Real GM is possibly the best out there. Check it out sometime.

LoneGranger33
03-01-2008, 05:41 PM
Well that didn't end well...

JayRedd
03-01-2008, 06:12 PM
Just like the career of Troy Bell, that must have been a huge disappointment.

At least Anthony Mason Jr hit a walk-off three for the Johnnies though. You can take solace in that at least.

croz24
03-01-2008, 06:20 PM
i've checked it out kofi plenty of times but i still find most of the posters on there to be quite oblivious...and you should see what they have to say about sean singletary...who btw put up 41pts (12-25 fg, 13-14 ft) 9rbs and 3asts...

Kofi
03-01-2008, 06:40 PM
Yet the combined talent of the first 5 picks dwarfs the combined talent of the next 50 as well.

Absolutely, I've said that for over a year now. (wait...how long have I been a member here? Nevermind.) The top-5 is the creme de la creme. That's why I don't mind the losing now, as we're just 4 games out of the #5 spot in the draft. I would happily take 26-46 and the #5 pick (and a 29.2% of jumping into the top-3) over 32-50 and the #9 pick.


But 6-10 does NOT dwarf the rest of the draft. I already went down this road with Jose and put together an all-star team of just single picks from post 15 the last 12 years in contrast to taking them from 7-14. If you are changing that to 6-10 vs everyone else it's not nearly as good as you are suggesting.

Without posting them all, a quick look at 7-10 picks the last 15 years shows you have maybe a 1 in 4 chance of getting a quality player that lasts a few years, and far less than that are all-star talent.

Just about as many future all-stars or starters are on the board still at 15 than were taken at 7-10, let alone adding in the guys at 11-14 as well.

The fact is that outside of the top 5-6 it's pretty spotty. Is your pick the next Tmac or the next Danny Fortson? Odds say Fortson, despite having a top 10 pick.

Between 94-2003....

11 All-Stars drafted between #6-10 - just over 1 per draft, on average.

19 All-Stars drafted #11 and later (not including undrafted Ben Wallace and Brad Miller) - just under 2 per draft, on average.

For picks #6-10, we're talking about a span of just 50 picks. 11 All-Stars out of 50 picks....about one every 4-5 picks, not too bad.

On the other hand, from #11 on, we're talking about a grand total of 474 picks. 19 All-Stars out of 474 picks....one every 25 picks. Ouch.

And that's the point. It's much, much harder to pick out these types of players later in the draft, because their talent isn't as obvious. Anyone who shows signs of being a stud is already grabbed up by by a team selecting in the top-10. It doesn't always work out, but I'd take my chances with a top-10 prospect than guys mid-1st and on.



I mean even the guys some of us are hyping are going to be those busts. I understand that. I'm not sure you do when you talk up the #8 pick as a "top 10" with all the success rates that come with "top 10". Westbrook, Augustin, Thabeet - these are the future draft busts, or so the odds say.

I've done hours and hours of research on the draft. Believe me, I understand there will be busts, and many of them. However just because someone isn't a star doesn't necessarily make them a bust. Just because he doesn't turn out to be the next Dikembe Mutombo doesn't mean Thabeet couldn't end up the next Samuel Dalembert, a 12/10/3 block type of guy. Would you consider that a bust in the 7-10 range? I wouldn't. Even guys like Danny Fortson were productive NBA players for many years. Fortson, at his peak, was probably a top-3 rebounder in the NBA and a decent scorer as well. No superstar, but very serviceable player. And that's another thing - top-10 picks not only have much higher chances of turning into stars, they have much higher chances of turning into at least serviceable players. The majority of players drafted #15 or later aren't even in the league 4 years after being drafted.

LoneGranger33
03-01-2008, 06:57 PM
Just like the career of Troy Bell, that must have been a huge disappointment.

At least Anthony Mason Jr hit a walk-off three for the Johnnies though. You can take solace in that at least.

Thanks.



:censored:

mrknowname
03-01-2008, 09:04 PM
sign me up for the Westbrook bandwagon. could be the perfect 6th man for us. god knows our bench is terrible

honestly i hope we're in a position to draft Bayless and then grab Kyle Weaver somehow. i think that'd be a perfect match in our backcourt

a guy i like in teh 2nd round is Nikola Pekovic

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nikola-Pekovic-1047/


i think we need to focus on guys who are mentally tough, winners, and guys who committ to defense. all these things most of the current roster lacks

jmoney2584
03-01-2008, 09:17 PM
I've done hours and hours of research on the draft. Believe me, I understand there will be busts, and many of them. However just because someone isn't a star doesn't necessarily make them a bust. Just because he doesn't turn out to be the next Dikembe Mutombo doesn't mean Thabeet couldn't end up the next Samuel Dalembert, a 12/10/3 block type of guy. Would you consider that a bust in the 7-10 range? I wouldn't. Even guys like Danny Fortson were productive NBA players for many years. Fortson, at his peak, was probably a top-3 rebounder in the NBA and a decent scorer as well. No superstar, but very serviceable player. And that's another thing - top-10 picks not only have much higher chances of turning into stars, they have much higher chances of turning into at least serviceable players. The majority of players drafted #15 or later aren't even in the league 4 years after being drafted.

Remember that next time you state that "Gordon has bust written all over him" homie.

Kofi
03-01-2008, 09:47 PM
Arizona vs UCLA tomorrow. Westbrook, Collison, Love, Bayless, Budinger....

Anthony Randolph is interesting. He looks anorexic, but he has a ton of talent. I've seen him compared to Chris Bosh and LaMarcus Aldridge. Word is, if he comes out this year he'll go in the second half of the top 10, but another season at LSU and he could go top-3 in 2009. If we're looking to draft J.O.'s replacement, this guy would be an interesting choice.

How about we trade J.O. to New York for Marbury and #5, take Bayless after he slips to us at 5, then take Randolph with our own 1st. We then build around Granger, Bayless, Randolph, Dunleavy, and hopefully Shawne. Our 2009 1st goes lottery, and we can take a matured DeAndre Jordan to complete our front court and build our own version of the Trail Blazers.

O.k. I'll stop dreaming now.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2008, 12:57 AM
I said I wouldn't but...

please find a way to get Brandon Rush. Really. Okay, now I'm really done. ;)

Pretty interesting day for some prospects. How about the Mayo dropping 7-10 from deep?

Beasley gets 2 fouls in the first 2 minutes, doesn't get another foul the rest of the way and scores 39. It's insane. And that atmosphere was intense too.

I've been off and on with Arthur (KS), wondering if its the system or him, but I'm coming around. I still have concerns on him having a limited list of post go-to moves, but the ones he shows now are pretty smooth.

Thabeet, 18 minutes TWO rebounds, 3 blocks. Yes, more blocks than rebounds. I love the physical talent, but really has he shown any NBA caliber ability besides shot blocking? The rest of it is fingers crossed and hope he learns.

Augustin went off vs TxTech but it was in a loss and mostly he called his own number. That's one thing that concerns me with his game.

Kraft
03-02-2008, 06:13 AM
I think both the Kansas kids could have really solid NBA careers. Not franchise-changing, but franchise-stabilizing. Rush is plain smooth ... he seems like he's running at 70 percent all the time. I'd really like to see him deep into the tournament to see what fifth gear looks like.

I just wish Darrell Arthur would keep his switch in the on position. When he's good, he's everything you want in a power forward. Shoots a high percentage, rebounds the ball, changes shots with his length. He's not gonna be Karl Malone with the offensive game, but I could see a 14/10 guy for 10 years if he keeps his athleticism.

If those guys are in the right situation, with the right coach ... man ... I wish that was here.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2008, 02:33 PM
When you said "both Kansas kids" I thought you meant Chalmers and Rush, not Arthur. :)

With Chalmers/Rush the question remains on them declaring or not.


One thing about the deeper picks. Yes the list isn't a lot of stars. Yes the raw numbers tell you that guys just can't all make it, not unless you add 100 teams. But when you parse the past drafts you see a lot of decent role players that lasted a few years and were helpful in their own way.

So I don't discount that early 2nd round kid just because he won't be an all-star. I'd take another Harrison without the attitude that far down and be thrilled.

So I look at some of these picks, like Price, with the expectations of just being a touch of help ala Diener. If he turns into Parker or Josh Howard then that's just bonus.

I stand by the prediction that barring a lottery MIRACLE the Pacers aren't drafting top 5. We need to be prepared to accept just a solid role player and a deep bench guy as the two draft pickups this season.

In other words, not enough to really change things. That's going to take years.

Kofi
03-02-2008, 03:02 PM
We're gonna see what Gordon is made of in the second half today with IU down 28 at the break.

Kofi
03-02-2008, 04:22 PM
Another game with Gordon providing scoring and little else. With him being not much more than a scorer and with his lack of size, I just can't see him going top-5.

croz24
03-02-2008, 04:25 PM
turnovers, no handle, 0 defense, lack of quickness, and slowly losing his shot...boy there's a bunch to love about ej :-\

Rajah Brown
03-02-2008, 05:16 PM
Ya, and that damn EJ is already a relic at 19 yrs of age too. No way
he'll get any better at all or have any shot at developing his game
once he's in the NBA and has chance to be coached-up and work
on it every day.

Sarcasm intended !

Kofi
03-02-2008, 05:28 PM
Ya, and that damn EJ is already a relic at 19 yrs of age too. No way
he'll get any better at all or have any shot at developing his game
once he's in the NBA and has chance to be coached-up and work
on it every day.

Sarcasm intended !

Yes, but the same thing could be said for everyone in the draft, especially the young (Freshman, Sophomore) kids.

croz24
03-02-2008, 05:32 PM
ej, like most players/propects have limitations to their games however...sure ej is young, but he's only gotten worse as the season has gone along. watching him in high school, he had better ball handling skills then than he does now...ej has potential, but not more potential than at least 15 guys in this upcoming draft. drafting ej, would be a huge mistake for the pacers...

Kofi
03-02-2008, 05:56 PM
Kevin Love is a beast. 17/11/2, 58% from the floor, 75% from the line, all in 29 mpg as a freshman. If he's a legit 6'10", how is this guy not a top-10 lock at any point he decides to declare? He's far better than Spencer Hawes last season.

mrknowname
03-02-2008, 05:58 PM
ej, like most players/propects have limitations to their games however...sure ej is young, but he's only gotten worse as the season has gone along. watching him in high school, he had better ball handling skills then than he does now...ej has potential, but not more potential than at least 15 guys in this upcoming draft. drafting ej, would be a huge mistake for the pacers...

i still think his wrist is bothering him and honestly i think he has hit a freshmen wall. once he learns to play under control and his ballhandling improves he'll be a solid pro

Trader Joe
03-02-2008, 06:06 PM
Kevin Love is a beast. 17/11/2, 58% from the floor, 75% from the line, all in 29 mpg as a freshman. If he's a legit 6'10", how is this guy not a top-10 lock at any point he decides to declare? He's far better than Spencer Hawes last season.

I think thats the problem with Love, is he a legit 6'10". If he is he could be a very good system player for many years in the NBA.

Gordon's got his issues right now though. Which is good for Pacer fans because he could drop to us. His defense comes and goes as does his ball handling. Those are the two biggest things he needs to work on by a mile. People would think more of his passing if IU played an offense that relied on ball movement instead of this 4 out 1 in iso we run. (Really you can't even call it an offense at this point its just one on one play.) I don't know how you can knock Gordon's quickness though, his first step is deadly. You combine his first step with his above average strength and you have the recipe for how he gets so many free throws. Gordon though hasn't had the ideal experience for a freshman player in college so I'm not surprised that his game hasn't improved as much as some of the other freshmen this season. He's had the wrist injury plus the whole Sampson situation and I have no doubt that has stunted his growth recently.

croz24
03-02-2008, 06:41 PM
his 1st step is solid for a college guard, but it will not be good enough in the pros...it's quick, but not mayo, bayless quick, and when you don't have the handles you're looking at a turnover waiting to happen. which is what ej is right now. ej is a one-trick pony who's struggling at that one-trick...i'll cheer for ej at the nba level and even hope he gets taken before the pacers pick. that way a player who will make more of an impact on our team will fall to us...

jmoney2584
03-02-2008, 06:46 PM
These other freshman haven't had the controversy and side show distractions in their freshman seasons as Gordon has with Sampson and Illinois and a new coaching change. That stuff throws a yung undeveloped mind off. I hope he does slip out of the top 5 because by ALL counts he is very smart and a hard worker. He is intense in practice and his game will definitely come around with some pro coaching and a structured system. Also, his numbers have gone down since his wrist injury. Your ball handling and overall game are dfinitely going to suffer when you are playing with a brace on one hand. I could see him being afraid of reinjuring it again and hurting his draft stock, therefor playing softer than normal.

Now, lately...i would probably be more content with Mayo coming to the Pacers...he has serious game and is tepping up as the season goes on. Maybe Gordon reinjures his wrist...goes really late in the 1st round and by then we have securd two more picks and get Mayo, White, and Goron.....or maybe I'm way off...but That is my NBA 2k8 roster...

croz24
03-02-2008, 06:56 PM
ej's "wrist" by all accounts is healthy, and he's struggled with ball handling/decision making all year long...

Major Cold
03-02-2008, 08:25 PM
THis is what I do not get. If WEstbrook can get a ride by being young why can't Gordon. Yeah he was hyped and over-hyped. But just because he was over-hyped does not mean he is overrated. He is a freshman and if this was 20 years ago he would have at least another season with IU. But it is not and the kid does have potential. He does have the skill set to be a future All-star. If that happens or not who knows. But if we have a 10-15 pick and we do not select him then TPTP is plan retarded.

owl
03-02-2008, 08:42 PM
I am not sure I want Gordon on the Pacers. It may not be the easiest place for him to develope
being a hometown favorite. Plus I think center and point guard are a bigger need anyway.
I hope he is picked before the Pacers have to make that decision.

Will Galen
03-05-2008, 12:55 PM
This article from Chad Ford is interesting. He's thinking what I am, that if the Pacers get the #1 pick they will take Rose. That's also the result that happens if you do the lottery and the Pacer's get the first pick.
---------------------------------------------

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Lottery-080304
Is Beasley the consensus No. 1 pick for lottery teams?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/columnists/Ford_Chad_55.jpg (http://x.go.com/cgi/x.pl?goto=http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=chad_ford&name=SEARCH_m_archive&srvc=sz) By Chad Ford
ESPN.com

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/insider/insider_free.gif
<!-- promo plug -->
<!-- end promo plug -->
<!-- end story header --><!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin page tools --> <!-- end page tools --><!-- begin story body --> <!-- template inline --> Updated: March 4, 2008

• Play the lottery! Try all 2,184 combinations (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2008/mockdraft)
Last year, the best debate in sports centered on the NBA draft. Who do you take No. 1 -- Greg Oden (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4243) or Kevin Durant (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4244)? After more than a month of deliberation, the Blazers settled the debate by taking Oden with the top pick.

This year, there is far less to argue about.

Kansas State's Michael Beasley (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19133) is having a freshman season that is even more impressive than Durant's freshman campaign. He's the country's leading rebounder and third-leading scorer.

[+] Enlarge (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Lottery-080304#)
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0228/ncb_u_beasley3_200.jpg (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Lottery-080304#)Peter G. Aiken/US Presswire
When it comes to the No. 1 pick, Beasley has the inside track.



Beasley is a coach's dream on the court. A 6-foot-10 power forward, he is a prolific scorer both inside and outside. He also has great athleticism, sick range on his jump shot, the power to bang in the paint, the speed to run the break, the nastiness to mix it up down low and the cockiness to think that he can deliver a victory for his team every night.

The other contenders for the No. 1 spot in the draft don't come close to Beasley's résumé. There are no 7-foot centers who play like Bill Russell. There are no other dominant college players rewriting the record books. There are no mysterious international players who can claim No. 1 status.

Beasley's closest competition is Memphis' Derrick Rose (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19132). Rose is an elite point guard prospect who has size, athleticism and leadership abilities, and he plays on one of the best teams in college basketball. But Rose's lacks a consistent jump shot, and that combined with the NBA's aversion to selecting players under 6-foot-6 as the top pick in the draft make him a hard sell over Beasley.

For better or for worse, this is the Michael Beasley draft.

However, it is still not a lock that he will be the No. 1 pick in June. Why? For the same reason we had Beasley ranked No. 2 in July. There are so many questions about his character swirling around that it will take some serious vetting before a team chooses him No. 1.

To his credit, Beasley has been on his best behavior at Kansas State. People say he has matured. He has avoided trouble. His coach, Frank Martin, sings his praises. He has been a committed teammate and player. And by almost all accounts, Beasley is a good kid who just hasn't always kept his nose clean.

But it is clear that NBA scouts and especially NBA executives are still wringing their hands a little. I can't go a day without a scout or executive telling a story that begins with, "Did you hear about the time Beasley … "

In other words, rightly or wrongly, they're worried. Derrick Coleman's name gets thrown out there from time to time. He too was an incredibly talented phenom. But he never seemed to care enough to be great.

A couple of GMs said they'd have reservations about making Beasley No. 1 because of fan sensitivities over his character. Another contingent says it's his work ethic and commitment to the game that give them pause. Others seem ready and willing to pull the trigger if their team gets to pick first.

The GMs who have serious doubts usually draft for need -- and several of the teams vying for the top pick in the draft don't need a power forward, they need a point guard.

With the debut of our annual Lottery + Mock Draft generator (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2008/mockdraft), we break down the issue from a practical standpoint. If we gave each of the 14 worst teams in the league the No. 1 pick, what would they do?

Over the past few weeks, Insider talked to scouts or executives from almost every team projected to be in the draft lottery in an effort to determine what each would do. Some were open, some refused to answer. Here's what we can gather on where each team stands in the debate to determine who's No. 1.

<hr width="150">
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/mia.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mia)

Miami Heat (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mia)
Odds of winning the lottery: 25 percent

The Heat could really use a franchise point guard like Rose, but all indications are that Beasley would be the man if the draft were held today. Talent-wise, he'd be a big upgrade over Udonis Haslem (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3765). And he would give the Heat a formidable trio of athletes alongside Dwyane Wade (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3708) and Shawn Marion (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3332).

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/min.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=min)

Minnesota Timberwolves (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=min)
Odds of winning the lottery: 19.9 percent

The Wolves need a franchise point guard more than they need a franchise power forward right now. Al Jefferson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3832) is having an All-Star caliber season, and Sebastian Telfair (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3830) is easily replaceable. The Wolves, however, would likely opt for Beasley. Jefferson can move to the center position if Beasley comes on board. Meanwhile, the Wolves still believe that Randy Foye (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4135) will eventually be the team's point guard.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/mem.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mem)

Memphis Grizzlies (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mem)
Odds of winning the lottery: 15.6 percent

This is one of the most clear-cut choices for Beasley. The Grizzlies have a hole at power forward after giving away Pau Gasol (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3513), and they currently are stacked with three young point guards. Put Beasley on the floor with Rudy Gay (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4136) and Mike Conley (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4246) and the Grizzlies have a very formidable young core.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/sea.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sea)

Seattle SuperSonics (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=Sea)
Odds of winning the lottery: 11.9 percent

Is it possible that the Sonics could land both Durant and Beasley? Yes, and a few of the GMs I spoke with think it would be an amazing combination. Beasley and Durant are close friends and, together, they could one day give the Sonics the most potent inside-outside scoring duo in the league. The team has more pressing needs at center and point guard, but if they get the pick, Beasley is the likely choice.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/nyk.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=nyk)

New York Knicks (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=nyk)
Odds of winning the lottery: 8.8 percent

This is a really tough call. What the Knicks need more than anything else is chemistry and a floor leader who can bring all of the egos on the Knicks together. On that account, Rose sounds like the right guy for the job. Furthermore, the Knicks need a point guard much more than they need a 4. Remember, before Zach Randolph (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3531) was traded to the Knicks, he was considered one of the premier young power forwards in the league. However, would you rather have Randolph or Beasley? In the end, Isiah Thomas and company seems to worship stardom over chemistry and I think they opt for Beasley. On paper, they're right. But on paper, the Knicks have always been better than the product that shows up on the court each night. However, since I'm betting that someone other than Isiah will be calling the shots at this draft … I'm going with Rose. He's the type of player who can turn the culture around.

Edge: Rose

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/lac.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=lac)

Los Angeles Clippers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=lac)
Odds of winning the lottery: 6.3 percent

The Clippers are another team that really needs a point guard. Sam Cassell (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1295) is gone and there's no telling whether Shaun Livingston (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3821) will ever recover from the knee injured he endured last season. However, they may need a power forward sooner than you think. Elton Brand (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3324) can terminate his contract this summer and there are rumblings in L.A. that he might opt out for the chance at a title. If he leaves, it's a no-brainer that Beasley's the guy. If he doesn't, it will be a tough call for the Clips.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/cha.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cha)

Charlotte Bobcats (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cha)
Odds of winning the lottery: 4.3 percent

The Bobcats are another team that should be easy to peg. They desperately need athleticism and rebounding in the frontcourt. Raymond Felton (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3931) isn't as talented as Rose, but he'll do. This one is Beasley all the way.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/mil.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mil)

Milwaukee Bucks (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mil)
Odds of winning the lottery: 2.8 percent

The Bucks spent last year's lottery pick on an athletic power forward with inside-outside skills -- Yi Jianlian (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4284). Would they do it again to get Beasley? Probably. Yi is a very good prospect, but he can play multiple positions. Beasley is ready now and has more upside. They could use Rose as well. But with Mo Williams (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3750) entrenched at the point, the position isn't really a need.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/chi.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=chi)

Chicago Bulls (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=chi)
Odds of winning the lottery: 1.7 percent

Beasley would be a godsend to the Bulls. He's the perfect antidote to what they lack -- a confident, athletic low-post scorer who can draw double-teams. Put him on the floor with Luol Deng (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3824), Ben Gordon (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3820), Joakim Noah (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4287) and Kirk Hinrich (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3710) and I think the Bulls' playoff future suddenly gets much brighter again.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/ind.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=ind)

Indiana Pacers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=ind)
Odds of winning the lottery: 1.1 percent

Here's the first team that seems like a lock not to draft Beasley. Given all of the off-court problems their players have faced, Larry Bird and company are looking for model citizens. I doubt they take the risk on Beasley. Besides, after years of watching Jamaal Tinsley's off-again, on-again performances, I think the idea of a young, talented point guard like Rose would actually hold more appeal. This team needs leadership and Rose can provide it.

Edge: Rose

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/pho.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=pho)

Phoenix Suns (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=pho) (via Atlanta Hawks (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=Atl))
Odds of winning the lottery: 0.8 percent

This one's a no-brainer. Beasley would be a monster in the Suns' system -- an excellent replacement for Shawn Marion. Once Shaq peters out (which looks like sooner rather than later) Amare Stoudemire (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3607) will be back playing center and Beasley would be a great fit next to him as a 4. Rose would be a great consolation prize -- a point guard capable of giving Steve Nash (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3103) a break. But if they hit a home run and get the No. 1 pick, it'll be Beasley.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/sac.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sac)

Sacramento Kings (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sac)
Odds of winning the lottery: 0.7 percent

The Kings have needs at both the 4 and point guard but it seems very likely that they'd lean toward bringing in Beasley. His talents on both ends of the floor would be a great complement to Kevin Martin (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3843) and Ron Artest (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3339). Rose would be great too, running the point, but Kings should go with the best talent.

Edge: Beasley

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/por.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=por)

Portland Trail Blazers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=por)
Odds of winning the lottery: 0.6 percent

The Blazers are another team that would likely hesitate at taking Beasley. GM Kevin Pritchard believes strongly in character, and I think Beasley would give him pause on such a talented, young team. The Blazers also have a bigger need at the point guard position. They have been searching for a franchise point guard to put on the floor with Oden, Brandon Roy (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4134) and LaMarcus Aldridge (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4130), and Rose is it.

Edge: Rose

<hr>
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/den.gif (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=den)

Denver Nuggets (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=den)
Odds of winning the lottery: 0.5 percent

The Nuggets could go either way here. They have a ton of money wrapped up in Kenyon Martin (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3400) and Nene, but Beasley's a better talent. They also have been out searching for a legit point guard who can run the floor with Carmelo Anthony and distribute -- and Rose should be ready from Day 1. In this case, I think the Nuggets err on the safe side and pick Rose.

Edge: Rose

Chad Ford (http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/writeback?name=Chad+Ford) covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

Shade
03-05-2008, 01:18 PM
I agree that, given the opportunity, the Pacers would take Rose over Beasley. We desperately need a PG.

And for all the EJ haters...just wait a few years and see. That's all there is to say.

Rajah Brown
03-05-2008, 02:35 PM
I'll agree with those who think that PG and C are priorites as
compared to SG. The Pacers need a top-flight SG too, but
they can mix and match there with what they have if need
be.

So, the question becomes, when the Pacers are on the clock,
is an Augustin at PG or a Thabeet at C a better prospect
than EJ or whomever the best guy is available in their
eyes at SG ?

If not, wether it's EJ, Mayo or whomever, you take the SG. You
never take the inferior prospect just because it's a positon of
relatively greater need (wouldn't apply at SG of course as they
have them coming out the wazoo).

Mr. Sobchak
03-05-2008, 02:36 PM
I agree that, given the opportunity, the Pacers would take Rose over Beasley. We desperately need a PG.

And for all the EJ haters...just wait a few years and see. That's all there is to say.


Shade, do you really think EJ is going to be as good of a player as D. Wade?

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2008, 03:05 PM
I think thats the problem with Love, is he a legit 6'10". If he is he could be a very good system player for many years in the NBA.
I thought his size would be an issue early on, but after watching many UCLA games I couldn't disagree more. What he does to get boards and points is a combo of Foster (reb) and McHale (off). He ducks under, steps out quickly, reads the play as it develops, etc.

Guys that live by size are more like Hibbert and Thabeet. Arthur I like for his general speed and skill set too, but even with that he's no Love when it comes to awareness and being crafty.

Look, it could be that Love is NCAA wily, that he won't outthink NBA players, but I don't buy that. Remember how polished Duncan was coming out and how well that translated even against the bigger Shaq?



EJ over Beasley....um, no, never, never, never unless you are trying to continue the streak of iffy moves. Beasley is a nearly ambidextrous very quick PF with a will on the boards and a soft jumper from good range. He's not even "at size" yet, meaning I think he bulks up and grows a little more still. He's not crafty like Love, but don't think he's some power PF bullying kids around. He's fast and skilled.

You draft Beasley and figure out the best deal you can get for JO. Then you plan for the winning 2 years from now.

edit - maybe you take Rose, maybe. And if you can move JO and get back into the first round you go Beasley and get one of the moderate PGs that will be there (Collison, Weaver) or hit the HR (IMO) and get Rush.


There will be surprises, there is no way I or any other person is going to read this or any draft perfectly. But for now let's go on reasonable expectations. EJ is a 1 dimensional scorer of nice talent and good personality. He's top 5-6 IMO. But Beasley is going #1 for a reason.

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2008, 03:18 PM
One other issue on Rose over Beasley, where is Rose at now? And who is already on the Pacers from that college with all those local ties to problems?

Um, yeah. Maybe not so certain Chad.

Will Galen
03-05-2008, 03:26 PM
But Beasley is going #1 for a reason.

Not if the Pacers get the first pick. He has issues, and the Pacer's are tired of issues. As Ford pointed out he doubts if Portland would take Beasley #1 either.

Of course both teams would probably try to make a deal whereby they pick Beasley for someone else. For instance if the Pacers got the 1st pick and Memphis got the third pick, maybe we could strike a deal where we draft Beasley for them and they give us Conley or Critterton and whoever we want with the #3 pick.

Dang! I don't know why I'm wasting my time talking about this. Not going to happen!

Will Galen
03-05-2008, 03:28 PM
One other issue on Rose over Beasley, where is Rose at now? And who is already on the Pacers from that college with all those local ties to problems?

Um, yeah. Maybe not so certain Chad.

I don't see the logic in that unless you can point out Memphis has an ongoing problem.

Kraft
03-05-2008, 03:29 PM
One other issue on Rose over Beasley, where is Rose at now? And who is already on the Pacers from that college with all those local ties to problems?

I'm guessing Rose has a completely different circle, and it's in Chicago. Derrick's been 'handled' probably since he was 12.

Rajah Brown
03-05-2008, 03:43 PM
Rose's brother Reggie is his primary handler. He was intimately
involved in the recruiting process. In the end, I think that Derrick
ended up essentially going where Reggie told him too.

Of course, now that he's at Memphis, World Wide Wes is probably
in the picture too.

Kofi
03-05-2008, 03:57 PM
I wouldn't take Rose over Beasley. Rose is good, but I've always thought his actual skills were a little overhyped due to his superstar freakish athleticism. He'll wow you with his dunks, but then you remember he's a lousy shooter with an unimpressive a/to ratio. Right now I'd say he's a slightly bigger version of Jay Williams.

Since86
03-05-2008, 04:11 PM
What issues has Beasley had? I can't find anything, nor have I heard anything.

Mr. Sobchak
03-05-2008, 05:27 PM
What issues has Beasley had? I can't find anything, nor have I heard anything.


He went to like 12 different high schools and got kicked out of one (Oak Hill Academy I think) because he wrote his name in permanent marker on the principals car.

I'm sure there were more things but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

Dece
03-05-2008, 05:40 PM
Please, who didn't pull some kind of stunt in High School? That's a pretty minor crime imo, it wasn't any kind of substance abuse or violence, it was a prank.

Gamble1
03-05-2008, 05:45 PM
There will be surprises, there is no way I or any other person is going to read this or any draft perfectly. But for now let's go on reasonable expectations. EJ is a 1 dimensional scorer of nice talent and good personality. He's top 5-6 IMO. But Beasley is going #1 for a reason.

I am not a EJ homer but he is not a one dimensional scorer. Unless you consider a slashing abilty with out shooting as one dimensional. The big "if" with Beasly is whether or not he has matured as a man in college. If not then giving this guy money will only add fuel to fire for a bad character in the NBA. Who in our locker room is going to take him under their wing??

Gamble1
03-05-2008, 05:57 PM
He went to like 12 different high schools and got kicked out of one (Oak Hill Academy I think) because he wrote his name in permanent marker on the principals car.

I'm sure there were more things but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/11/AR2007031101466.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/11/AR2007031101466.html)
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">FITCHBURG</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">Mass.</st1:State></st1:place> -- Michael Beasley waits for his NBA fortune in a drafty room on the third floor of a crumbling house. He sleeps on a battered mattress with no sheets. The smell of sewage wafts from a communal bathroom down the hall. Cold air leaks through cracks in the walls and windows, so Beasley warms his room by keeping an open toaster oven turned to 450 degrees at the foot of his bed.<o:p></o:p>
How one of the country's best high school basketball players ended up spending his senior season here at Notre Dame Prep, in a small city 50 miles west of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Boston</st1:place></st1:City>, confounds even Beasley. His high school career -- a six-school, five-state odyssey -- stopped making sense long ago, he said. "I just go from one place to the next," said Beasley, who is from <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gaithersburg</st1:place></st1:City>. "I hardly even think about it."<o:p></o:p>
Since he entered the eighth grade, Beasley's career has followed the same cyclical pattern: He's dismissed from one school for misbehavior and immaturity; then he's wooed to another school for the smooth left-handed jumper and forceful first step that make him a projected lottery pick in a future NBA draft.<o:p></o:p>
At Notre Dame Prep, Beasley treats high school less like a destination than an obstacle he must bypass in order to reach the NBA. He counts down the days until he leaves for his freshman year at <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Kansas</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, until he turns 19 next January and finally becomes eligible for the NBA draft.<o:p></o:p>
"I'm just killing time here," said Beasley, who averages 28 points and 16 rebounds from the forward position. "Sometimes it seems like high school lasts forever."<o:p></o:p>
Beasley had never seen Notre Dame Prep before he arrived at the school in early September. Based simply on the school's name and basketball reputation, he expected a stately campus with rolling green hills and striking dormitories. When he arrived at the actual campus, he briefly considered turning around and going back to the airport.<o:p></o:p>
Notre Dame Prep opened in 1952, and its three-story school building has steadily deteriorated since. The front door is broken, so students come and go through a screechy side entrance. The nationally ranked boys' and girls' basketball teams play on a court with chipped blue paint and rounded backboards. Two nights each week, the court doubles as a venue for the town bingo game. Notre Dame Prep stopped resurfacing its basketball court almost a decade ago because elderly bingo players complained about the potential for slipping on a waxed floor.<o:p></o:p>
As part of the financial aid package that pays most of his $17,000 tuition, Beasley helps set up and remove the bingo tables two nights each week. He has only two other responsibilities at Notre Dame: to help the basketball team retain its status as the best prep program in the country; and to attain the grades and SAT score necessary for college eligibility.<o:p></o:p>
Practice becomes a centerpiece of the Notre Dame schedule, because half of the school's 60 students are basketball players recruited from out of state. Ten foreign exchange students from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">South Korea</st1:place></st1:country-region> and a handful of locals make up the rest of the student population. Beasley practices for two hours in the afternoon, takes a nap and then practices again at night. "The basketball team is pretty much the only thing this school's got," Beasley said.<o:p></o:p>
Beasley remains confident that he will gain NCAA eligibility despite his nontraditional high school education. He needs to score at least a 920 on the SAT later this year, he said. His grades at Notre Dame are mostly Bs and Cs. His favorite class is English -- taught by Bill Barton, the basketball coach.<o:p></o:p>
During the summer, as part of its probe into prep schools with questionable academic practices, the NCAA sent an investigator to Notre Dame Prep and about 20 other nontraditional private schools, said NCAA Vice President Kevin Lennon. The investigator showed up unannounced, Barton said, and spent a full day observing classes at the school.<o:p></o:p>
"With Notre Dame Prep, we were sufficiently satisfied that it was a high school where learning was going on," Lennon said. "We saw teachers. We saw a curriculum. We saw the things you'd want to see at a high school."<o:p></o:p>
For Beasley, It's a Jumping Point<o:p></o:p>
At various points in his career, Beasley planned to spend his senior season at five schools in four other states. He split the 2002-03 season between <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">National</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Christian</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Academy</st1:PlaceName> in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Fort</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> and Laurinburg (N.C.) Institute. He played a season at <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">IMG</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Academies</st1:PlaceType> in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Florida</st1:place></st1:State>; then, the next year, an amateur basketball coach in Upper Marlboro home-schooled Beasley while he played basketball for Riverdale Baptist.<o:p></o:p>
Last season, Beasley thought he'd found a perfect fit at <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Oak</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Hill</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Academy</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> in Mouth of Wilson, Va. He improved his academic transcript with solid grades, coaches said, and he averaged 21 points and 12 rebounds for a nationally ranked basketball team. Then, in August, coaches at Oak Hill gave Beasley the same bad news he'd heard a few times before: The school had decided not to invite him back.<o:p></o:p>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 7.45pt; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-table-lspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-rspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-table-left: right; mso-table-top: middle; mso-padding-alt: 3.0pt 0in 0in 3.0pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=10 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 7.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=10><o:p> </o:p>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Beasley said nobody gave him an exact reason for his dismissal, but he guesses that Oak Hill grew tired of his pranks. He wore pajamas to the school cafeteria. He threw sticks at teachers' houses. He snuck out of his dorm after curfew and organized games of hide-and-go seek.<o:p></o:p>
"Me and Tywon Lawson had a competition at the beginning of the school year about who could sign their autograph the most around the school," Beasley said, referring to a teammate who now stars at <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">North Carolina</st1:place></st1:State>. "And I don't lose at anything, man, so I walked around with one of those Sharpies and signed graffiti everywhere. Every day, they were cleaning my name off water fountains, ceilings, desks, offices -- whatever. I just thought it was funny."<o:p></o:p>
Oak Hill Coach Steve Smith blamed Beasley's poor behavior on simple immaturity. "He's really a good-hearted kid," Smith said. So, with two weeks left in the school year, Smith offered his star player one final chance: He told Beasley that, to be invited back to Oak Hill, he needed to impress administrators with flawless end-of-year behavior.<o:p></o:p>
Two days later, Beasley signed his name in black ink on the principal's truck, Smith said.<o:p></o:p>
"He'll definitely try your patience," Smith said. "You look at him physically and he's a full-grown man, and you think he's going to make good decisions all the time. But a lot of times, he just didn't."<o:p></o:p>
At a practice here in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Fitchburg</st1:place></st1:City> last month, Barton gathered his players to give them a scouting report on an upcoming opponent. In less than 24 hours, the team played one of its most important games of the season. Barton stood still, with a basketball under his right arm, and talked quietly. "Pay attention, 'cause this is important," Barton said. His players leaned in to listen. Then Beasley started shouting.<o:p></o:p>
"Hey coach, pass the ball!" Beasley yelled. "Come on, coach. You're being a ball hog, yo. Pass it. I'm open."<o:p></o:p>
Teammates laughed, and Barton shook his head. Over the last six months, Barton had decided mainly to ignore Beasley's childishness. He finished his scouting report and divided his players into two teams for a shirts-against-skins scrimmage. As Beasley pulled off his cotton T-shirt to play for the skins, he danced across the court.<o:p></o:p>
"I'm naked! I'm naked!" Beasley yelled. "Look, coach. I'm naked!"<o:p></o:p>
Beasley said he's made sincere attempts at maturation since he arrived at Notre Dame. With his NBA future looming, he's tried to think of basketball as business. He learned to shake hands with opposing coaches this season, he said, instead of slapping careless high-fives. He shaves and cuts his hair every few days to look clean. When Beasley bought five new tattoos last month to celebrate his 18th birthday, he made sure none of the tattoos -- four names on his wrists and "FAMILY FIRST" across his collarbone -- would show when he wore a suit.<o:p></o:p>
"People are starting to treat me like a professional because of how I play," Beasley said. "So now I'm trying to act like one."<o:p></o:p>
In his <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Fitchburg</st1:place></st1:City> bedroom, Beasley keeps 140 shoe boxes from Nike, Reebok and Adidas. He requested a full room in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Fitchburg</st1:place></st1:City> to store shoes, but Notre Dame Prep said it couldn't find the extra space. Each sneaker company sends Beasley a few pairs each week, he said, because they recognize his potential as a future endorser.<o:p></o:p>
At 6 feet 9 inches, Beasley dribbles well enough to run the fast break. He prefers to play underneath the basket, but his soft left-handed jump shot remains reliable even from three-point range. He anchors the defense for Notre Dame, a team that has lost only two games this season.<o:p></o:p>
Beasley believes he could play even better under improved conditions. Notre Dame travels by car to tournaments almost every weekend across the East Coast. Beasley has stopped lifting weights because he's worried about catching a cold in the school gym, a poorly heated third-floor classroom.<o:p></o:p>
In his spare time at Notre Dame, Beasley tries to pretend he's somewhere else. He puts a sign on the door of his room that reads, in red block letters, STUDIO, DON'T DISTURB. Then he attaches a microphone to his computer and raps, recording his own songs. His room looks over <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Fitchburg</st1:place></st1:City>'s modest downtown, and Beasley likes to stay awake until 4 a.m. and stare at the city lights.<o:p></o:p>
"It's comforting," Beasley said. "I can kind of pretend I'm just hanging around D.C., looking out at home."

sounds like a big kid.<o:p></o:p>

Mr. Sobchak
03-05-2008, 06:58 PM
Please, who didn't pull some kind of stunt in High School? That's a pretty minor crime imo, it wasn't any kind of substance abuse or violence, it was a prank.

Im personally not making a big deal about it but that is what most people are referring to when they say he's had off the court issues.

croz24
03-06-2008, 02:11 AM
yet another subpar game from ej...his ft shooting seems to his saving grace, otherwise he might only be averaging 12ppg...it's almost getting to the point where i'd PREFER sean singletary over ej...

jmoney2584
03-06-2008, 03:18 AM
There is something to be said about earning trips to the line everynight. Drawing fouls on the opposing team is a GOOD thing. He actually utilized more of a mid-range game and I even saw a nice floater in there that he should utilize more often. The defense wasn't that bad either. His biggest problem is inconsistency. He is still averaging over 20 points a game at age 19. Let me repeat...age 19. I would like to take Augustin, Thabeet, or any of these players (most of whom I have a fondness for certain aspects of their games as well) that people on here want to take over EJ in the draft and stick them in his shoes. Sampson doesn't coach a strong offense. His main priniciples were always work ethic, hustle, and defense. Not only that, but when there is a constant controversey surrounding the coach you came to play for, with his tenure uncertain (and clearly it is ended now) how can you buy into everything he is teaching when you don't know if he is going to be leading you at practice the next day. Now insert interim coach Dan Dik-itch and you have a bad recipe for confusion. The players almost boycotted the Sampson step down, that shows problems in the locker room. Augustin isn't a freshman, neither is Thabeet and still EJ is projected higher than them in the draft. There is a reason for this, that reason is talent. Again, maybe he would be better suited with another year in college, but with IU's coaching dilemma it probably isn't best. He will learn just as much in the pros while developing. Granger spent a long time in college and it took him until his 3rd year in the pros AFTER all those years in school (keep in mind EJ hasn't even finsihed one full season of college play) to really start breaking out into his own. His evolution and development took what...6 or 7 years to turn him into what he is now. EJ at this age would have murdered a Danny Granger of the same age, height difference or not. You look at Eric gordon 6 or 7 years down the road and then you judge him if you want to be REALLY fair. I am a huge EJ fan but I'm not an idiot. I do not expect him to come into the league right away averaging 20 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, and 2 steals a game. Do I think it is in the realm of being a HUGE possibility down the road..yes, extremely. Scouts know this just as well as I do and that is why he is ranked so high and why he has been his entire career. People get on here after every game just to point out how "bad" Gordon played in a particular game and to highlight how much of a boner they have for 5'11 Augustin (talk about a size disadvantage with NO defense) and a skinny 7'3 center who is REALLY a "one-trick pony". Growth comes with maturity and who gives a flying crap if he got most of his points from the free throw line. It takes a knack and a gift to get to the line like he does and I will tell you one thing, not ONE person on this Pacers team has it. Have I mentioned he is 19 years old? Because he is.

EDIT: And since people want to complain about getting to the free throw line, lets have a look at players who would have their PPG significantly dropped if you just took away their ability to get to the line...

Player ..................... PPG...........PPG w/o FT's
Dwight Howard ________21.6_______14.8
Allen Iverson__________26.7 _______18.5
Dwayne Wade ________24.5 _______17.6
Corey Maggette _______21.9_______14.1
Chris Bosh ___________22.6_______15.4
Kevin Martin __________22.6_______15.1

And this is only naming 6 stars in the league, all of their PPG significantly drop when you subtract their ability to get to the line, but you never hear anyone complaining about them making a living at the charity stripe. The only people who beat this system are Kobe and Lebron...the two best players in the world. No one is claiming EJ is going to be anything near either of those two, so this whole free throw argument should officially be moot.

I love Granger and Dunleavy, but Granger makes a whopping 4 FTs a game and Mike sits there at 3.8. Sorry, but all that gets from me is the unflattering sound of flatulation. I would be thrilled to have a player like EJ who can hit the outside shot, brings good character, would be an immediate fan favorite, and makes 7.2 free-throws a game.

Here is a list of players in the league who MAKE at or more than 7.2 free throws a game..

Player ......................... FTM per game
Allen Iverson ______________8.2
Corey Maggette___________ 7.8
Kobe Bryant_______________ 7.6
Kevin Martin_______________7.5
Lebron James______________7.2
Chris Bosh ________________7.2
Richard Jefferson___________7.2

...and that is all. SEVEN players in the NBA average that per game and two of them are the best in the world right now...and look at the other names...pretty elite company IMO. So can we please drop the "free throws are his saving grace" pucky all ready and just look at the facts? The man is good at what he does, he is fourth in the COUNTRY in free throws made shooting at an 85% clip which will most likely get better as he MATURES, just like everything else people want to complain about....oh yea, he is 19 years old. Stop hating and give credit where it is due.

croz24
03-06-2008, 04:04 AM
exactly! it's HOW ej is getting to the line that is the problem...he drives the ball recklessly and carelessly to the basket, and then it's a coin flip as to whether he is going to finish strong or turn it over. most of the time he does neither! how many 3pt plays do you see ej getting? he's more concerned about drawing a foul instead of just making the play...his ft attempts will decline in the league due to the fact his 1st step just won't be quick enough, so he might actually have to use some ball handling skills to get by because his strength also won't be nearly as affective against the bigger guards. and then if ej can actually get by his man with his lack of quickness/handling skills and equal strength, he'll have 6'10/7fters waiting for him in the paint. it's already hard enough for ej to finish a play around the rim, imagine what it's going to be like with somebody with size down low...plus, once ej does get into the league, i honestly don't think he'll have the mindset to drive to the basket. i believe he'll continue to settle with the outside j most of his career...and don't give us this bull about him being ONLY 19 b/c guess what? so are half of the other prospects...there's truly not THAT much of a difference btwn your 19yo coming out and your 20-21yo other than the 19yo being drafted higher based idiotically on an extra year or two of potential...

jmoney2584
03-06-2008, 04:14 AM
exactly! it's HOW ej is getting to the line that is the problem...he drives the ball recklessly and carelessly to the basket, and then it's a coin flip as to whether he is going to finish strong or turn it over. most of the time he does neither! how many 3pt plays do you see ej getting? he's more concerned about drawing a foul instead of just making the play...his ft attempts will decline in the league due to the fact his 1st step just won't be quick enough, so he might actually have to use some ball handling skills to get by because his strength also won't be nearly as affective against the bigger guards. and then if ej can actually get by his man with his lack of quickness/handling skills and equal strength, he'll have 6'10/7fters waiting for him in the paint. it's already hard enough for ej to finish a play around the rim, imagine what it's going to be like with somebody with size down low...plus, once ej does get into the league, i honestly don't think he'll have the mindset to drive to the basket. i believe he'll continue to settle with the outside j most of his career...and don't give us this bull about him being ONLY 19 b/c guess what? so are half of the other prospects...there's truly not THAT much of a difference btwn your 19yo coming out and your 20-21yo other than the 19yo being drafted higher based idiotically on an extra year or two of potential...

Pshaw, this is all interpretation on your part supported by nothing but your aching fingers trying to find a decent rebuttle. You have ZERO facts or hard evidence to back up these claims that he wil digress when he reaches the pros. By all accounts, and I mean ALL accounts EJ is an incredibly smart player and class act practice player. Once again, he is 19 and he will grow in strength, he isn't going to stay 19 forever silly. He isn't stuck in this world where he is unable to advance to the 20's and 30's haha. Once again you are basing your entire opinion off of where he is now, you are neglecting the maturation factor that he will go through as he develops in to a man. You think he is going to forget all of what has gotten him this far once he becomes pro? Good one. Do you also believe that drawing fouls isn't important? How many games are won and lost at the free throw line? How many teams succumb to seemingly weaker opponents due to foul trouble. Drawing fouls is an integral part of basketball. I don't understand how you can discredit getting to the line so fierce like. Do you forget that REGGIE MILLER was one of the best at drawing fouls EVER in the game? Do some research or go find me a stat or something visual that shows what you're saying has merit. Geez, I will even take evidence that you have a remote understanding of the game of basketball as an acceptable retort since your tissy on free throws is completely off base and inaccurate. The burden of proof lies on you my friend, my work here is done. Goodnight to all.

PS. Please don't delete this thread, this sounds harsh but it is just competitive banter betweem die hard fans. No hard feelings, just hard facts and tough love.

croz24
03-06-2008, 05:00 AM
take off your cream and crimson glasses for a second and focus solely on eric gordon...this will be my "visual"...compare what you see, to what i said about mr. gordon and that is where i base strong opinion...when you "scout" a player to see how you think he'll translate at the next level, you rarely look at stats to base that opinion. thus, there is no evidence you could provide me (outside of ej himself disproving me now and into the future) for me to change my assertion that ej will struggle in the nba...and just stop with his age already, especially when you have so many other freshman and sophomores lighting up the scoreboards this year. some may even been 18 :-O

for the record, and i have a fellow pd member to back me up on this, i was all FOR the pacers drafting ej no matter what it would take up until he started laying eggs against any decent team iu faced, started averaging a full turnover more than assists, began shooting UNDER 38% from 3, started dirbbling off his feet/legs/opponent's foot/knee/etc out of bounds every other time he tried to drive to the basket...

Doddage
03-06-2008, 07:46 AM
^ I'd like to know who this member is...

But yeah, it's become noticeable to me that EJ has lost intensity since the beginning of the season, which doesn't bode well for an 82-game NBA season. He's good in stretches, but that won't cut it at the NBA level if you're a lottery pick. He's undersized as it is and doesn't really have any point guard skills of note, so if he wants to succeed a la Ben Gordon and Wade, he has to pick up the effort level and motivation. Many of his flaws will be covered up that way since he'll focus on the strong parts of his game and adjust accordingly. Don't get me wrong though, the dude has upside and he's exactly who the franchise needs to regenerate fan interest, but he has to pick it up.

Major Cold
03-06-2008, 09:56 AM
^ I'd like to know who this member is...

But yeah, it's become noticeable to me that EJ has lost intensity since the beginning of the season, which doesn't bode well for an 82-game NBA season. He's good in stretches, but that won't cut it at the NBA level if you're a lottery pick. He's undersized as it is and doesn't really have any point guard skills of note, so if he wants to succeed a la Ben Gordon and Wade, he has to pick up the effort level and motivation. Many of his flaws will be covered up that way since he'll focus on the strong parts of his game and adjust accordingly. Don't get me wrong though, the dude has upside and he's exactly who the franchise needs to regenerate fan interest, but he has to pick it up.

this is one of the best profiles in this thread on Gordon.

Rajah Brown
03-06-2008, 10:24 AM
The fact that EJ is only 19 is not an excuse for anything. But it is
a reality. The comparison (or at least allusuion) to Ben Gordon
and Wade is silly. Wade didn't even play as a true freshman (he
redshirted) and while not sure about B. Gordon, I seriously doubt
he played 36-38 mins a game and was the primary, non-post-area,
offensive weapon on his team and the focus of opposing defenses
(not to mention guarding the opponents best perimeter player as
EJ does more often than not).

And while I concur with those who critique his game and note the
shortcomings, let's not forget that the college and NBA games are
markedly different. EJ is typically on the court in a (putting it nicely)
very simplistic offense with a PF who is no offensive threat a SF who
can't shoot to save his life and a PG who can't beat his man off the
dribble.

Kofi
03-06-2008, 10:45 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to Gordon at #8 or later, but he's not one of my preferred choices.

Assuming that Beasley, Bayless and Rose are top-3 locks and are realistically out of our reach (provided we don't win a top-3 pick), my current rankings would be...

1. O.J. Mayo, G, USC
2. Anthony Randolph, PF, LSU
3. Brook Lopez, PF/C, Stanford
4. DeAndre Jordan, C, Texas A&M
5. Russell Westbrook, PG, UCLA

I'd put Gordon, Augustin, Love, Thabeet, Arthur in my next 5.

I'd prefer someone who could step in and contribute right away, but these freshmen are too promising to pass up. Randolph looks like a Chris Bosh clone - no way do I pass that up to take a 6'3" SG with weak handles just because he's a local product. If Mayo is capable of running the point in the NBA, he's my favorite by a wide margin. We'll see. I also like Russell Westbrook and the things the experts are saying about him. I've seen him compared to a 6'4" Iverson, Monta Ellis, and Leandro Barbosa. He's definitely what we need, could contribute 15-20 minutes off the bench as a rookie, and has major upside given his size, athleticism, and blossoming skillset.

jmoney2584
03-06-2008, 12:01 PM
take off your cream and crimson glasses for a second and focus solely on eric gordon...this will be my "visual"...compare what you see, to what i said about mr. gordon and that is where i base strong opinion...when you "scout" a player to see how you think he'll translate at the next level, you rarely look at stats to base that opinion. thus, there is no evidence you could provide me (outside of ej himself disproving me now and into the future) for me to change my assertion that ej will struggle in the nba...and just stop with his age already, especially when you have so many other freshman and sophomores lighting up the scoreboards this year. some may even been 18 :-O

for the record, and i have a fellow pd member to back me up on this, i was all FOR the pacers drafting ej no matter what it would take up until he started laying eggs against any decent team iu faced, started averaging a full turnover more than assists, began shooting UNDER 38% from 3, started dirbbling off his feet/legs/opponent's foot/knee/etc out of bounds every other time he tried to drive to the basket...

I know you were all for it drafting EJ, I remember getting on here and looking t you and Kofi and others and being like "yea, thats what I'm talking about". We were all in the same boat for awhile until it got closer to March and that is when discrepancy reared its ugly head. I certainly do understand his weaknesses. He for sure needs to work on his handle. He for sure needs to learn to play defense for the enitre length he is on the floor, though when he does apply it I feel it is more than stingy. A few smarter moves made (or maybe just less bad ones) and he would appear much more attractive. He has shown an ability to hit the open man on drive and kicks with good efficiency, and is overall a very good passer. The lack of a handle is what forces some would be assists/points to turn into turnovers. I'm just looking at this from the perspective of us picking in the 8-11 range. At this point I could see him falling that far and at that point I feel it would be a dumb move not to take him. Do I think Bayless, Mayo, Augustin, and many other guards can have great pro careers? Absolutely. Do I think Mayo or Bayless will fall to us? No. One year can make a lot of difference in a players game. I hate to use Danny as an example because they are entirely different players, but he is another player who needed to work on his handle. This year he has shown a much greater ability to get his own shot going to the hoop. I'm just saying, with a little time and maturity, all the kinks in his game can and by all means should and will be worked out as he grows as a player. I reiterate that he is 19 simply because he has so much life left in his basketball career and so much time remaining to improve. All the skills and potential are there, he just has to harness and control it all. Also, I apologize for any edge you might have felt from my previous posts. I wrote all of those at 4:30 in the morning after studying for mid-terms all night on ONE hour of sleep.

If we could have any player in the draft, my top 5 in order would be (and this is to show I'm not completely EJ biased ;) ...
Michael Beasley
Derrick Rose
Jerryd Bayless
DeAndre Jordan
OJ Mayo

EJ comes in at 6 for me.
I just don't see it possible that we get any of the other 5 so why not cross my fingers for Gordon? He is the only one I could see the
p's movin up to pick. It is still a pretty strong move. I think we all just want to win so bad, that we tie our hopes into this years draft. People like you and I are college basketball freaks. We know of all the potential in this years draft inside and out, so we have set our expectations for this summer very high and that is probably unfair to ourselves really, but we don't care. We take all our frustration from the season on here as our girlfriends tell us from the background that "we spend too much time on basketball websites." The draft aside, we are all Pacers fans most of all and that is what brings us to this wonderful site so we can treat these threads like our verbal punching bags. Here's to a strong run into the lotto for the final stretch of the season, hopefully we can all end up happy in June.

CableKC
03-07-2008, 12:37 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Devon Hardin?

He seems like a decent Big Man option that can defend and rebound with decent size. It looks like he maybe available late in the 1st round.

d_c
03-07-2008, 01:13 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Devon Hardin?

He seems like a decent Big Man option that can defend and rebound with decent size. It looks like he maybe available late in the 1st round.

He stinks. I mean really, he does.

Naptown_Seth
03-07-2008, 09:38 AM
UCLA vs Stanford

Westbrook comes up big at the end, but NOT AS A PG. He continues to be a Fred Jones clone, great athlete but the very definition of swing guard. I think he makes the NBA fine, but I don't think he's what Indy needs at all.

Love was very impressive with Lopez (both). Brook had a rough night in big part to Love's defense. To me this really answered the questions on that. With FOUR fouls Love stayed right up on Brook and then his brother and got bad misses out of both of them. His 4th foul was a "block" that was clearly a charge late in the 4th, and if the call goes the right way it's a play that wins the game.

Love is a freshman, and when you watch him you think he's a senior with his maturity and attitude. This game was a true test against a big front line and he passed with flying colors. If Love is on the board into the mid-teens the Pacers MUST trade to pick him up I think. You have to take a shot with him.

Collison is coming on again, he had a pretty impressive PG game. My question on his game is his lane scoring, he leaves a lot of them short in there. Right now I'd project him as Greg Anthony.

Lopez I worry is a guy living on size, but he does to be a much more NBA ready version of Hibbert. He's a good FT shooter which you have to love from a big. He's not a team changing star to me, but he should contribute. But he's projecting into top 7-8? Not sure on that part.

Naptown_Seth
03-07-2008, 09:42 AM
I am not a EJ homer but he is not a one dimensional scorer. Unless you consider a slashing abilty with out shooting as one dimensional. The big "if" with Beasly is whether or not he has matured as a man in college. If not then giving this guy money will only add fuel to fire for a bad character in the NBA. Who in our locker room is going to take him under their wing??
You took it the wrong way, he is one dimensional and that dimension is pure scoring for himself. That's what he adds. If he only could score one way I wouldn't consider him capable of doing that in the NBA.

I have him as a top 6 pick, so keep that in mind when you read my comments on him. Some people are taking the "he's not better than Beasley" or "he's not the next Wade" to mean "he stinks". Not true at all. He's just not the big PG solution people are suggesting and I think he still needs another player to star with him at the NBA level.

Major Cold
03-07-2008, 10:47 AM
Well the UCLA and Stanford shows a lot about the prospects. Westbrook is a fine ball player but I think if he really wants to be a PG he is going to stay another year. I think if Love stays one more year he will be lottery bound. Collison played well, but Acie Law may have a better career than him in the NBA.

Brook Lopez was a huge disappointment. When going up against aggressive and physical defenders he struggles. He is finesse minus the athleticism.

MyFavMartin
03-07-2008, 12:26 PM
Highlights showed Lopez and Collison had good games. Collison looks good running the PnR. Watched some of the UConn game and Providence took it to the Huskies - Thabeet got his blocks but UConn looked bad. Still think Price would be a good potential PG for the Pacers.

Interesting fact displayed by ESPN - Lopez averages 6 more points in road games - that's impressive.

owl
03-07-2008, 12:52 PM
Love is a freshman, and when you watch him you think he's a senior with his maturity and attitude. This game was a true test against a big front line and he passed with flying colors. If Love is on the board into the mid-teens the Pacers MUST trade to pick him up I think. You have to take a shot with him.



I would not be unhappy with Love. Thabeet is my first choice because of his defense but
Love would be good for the Pacers. The Pacers are going to be picking most likely lottery,
so why do they need to trade to get him? As additional pick? Or do you think the Pacers will be at 15?

CableKC
03-07-2008, 12:52 PM
I have him as a top 6 pick, so keep that in mind when you read my comments on him. Some people are taking the "he's not better than Beasley" or "he's not the next Wade" to mean "he stinks". Not true at all. He's just not the big PG solution people are suggesting and I think he still needs another player to star with him at the NBA level.
Hmmmm...:chin:, it looks like you have thought this out already....but who do you have in your top 15 mock draft?

Kofi
03-07-2008, 12:57 PM
Westbrook comes up big at the end, but NOT AS A PG. He continues to be a Fred Jones clone, great athlete but the very definition of swing guard.

Every expert out there has Westbrook projected as a point guard in the NBA, none had Fred Jones as an NBA 1. He may be primarily playing SG due to Collison, but he projects as a PG at the next level. And if Collison goes pro and Westbrook stays in school, he'll almost certainly be UCLA's starting PG next season.

Hicks
03-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I'm high on Love, but I bet he stays and we don't get a chance at him. Besides, if he's as good as he looks, by the time he does come out he could be a lottery pick, and I hope to God within 2 years we aren't in a position to draft him (aside from making a trade).

jmoney2584
03-07-2008, 01:22 PM
UCLA vs Stanford


Love is a freshman, and when you watch him you think he's a senior with his maturity and attitude. This game was a true test against a big front line and he passed with flying colors. If Love is on the board into the mid-teens the Pacers MUST trade to pick him up I think. You have to take a shot with him.

Yea, yea he may grow a little more too. When he is NBA strong combined with his basketball IQ he will at least be a good energy guy off the bench who makes heady plays in the second unit

Shade
03-07-2008, 01:38 PM
You took it the wrong way, he is one dimensional and that dimension is pure scoring for himself.

He can shoot, slash, and get to the line (and hit 'em). Since when is that a bad thing? Aren't we looking for a go-to guy anyway?

Shade
03-07-2008, 01:40 PM
Oh, and to anyone trying to pigeonhole EJ as a 1...don't. He's not a PG.

Major Cold
03-07-2008, 04:13 PM
Every expert out there has Westbrook projected as a point guard in the NBA, none had Fred Jones as an NBA 1. He may be primarily playing SG due to Collison, but he projects as a PG at the next level. And if Collison goes pro and Westbrook stays in school, he'll almost certainly be UCLA's starting PG next season.

HEard that from you before and quite frankly I think it is getting old. As of right now WEstbrook is not displaying PG skills. Freaking Vince Carter is averaging 5.1 APG but he isn't a PG.

Kofi
03-07-2008, 04:44 PM
HEard that from you before and quite frankly I think it is getting old. As of right now WEstbrook is not displaying PG skills. Freaking Vince Carter is averaging 5.1 APG but he isn't a PG.

He's shown enough for scouts to know he'll eventually be a point guard in the NBA. His playmaking skills are on par with a 19 year old Tony Parker's. Certain people can't grasp the concept that, just because you're not the second coming of John Stockton, doesn't mean you can't be a point guard in the NBA.

4.6 apg while spending 2/3rds of his playing time at SG is impressive. 19 years old, athletic freak, great work ethic, amazing defender, blossoming shooter. I'll happily take it at #9.

mrknowname
03-07-2008, 06:59 PM
He's shown enough for scouts to know he'll eventually be a point guard in the NBA. His playmaking skills are on par with a 19 year old Tony Parker's. Certain people can't grasp the concept that, just because you're not the second coming of John Stockton, doesn't mean you can't be a point guard in the NBA.

4.6 apg while spending 2/3rds of his playing time at SG is impressive. 19 years old, athletic freak, great work ethic, amazing defender, blossoming shooter. I'll happily take it at #9.

i have to agree with this. westbrook is still so raw and has a lot of room to improve still, which makes him so intriguing. i'm not sure he'll ever be the answer at PG, but he seems like he'd be the perfect 6th man. i guess most people don't like him, because he isn't a sexy name

Major Cold
03-07-2008, 07:33 PM
i have to agree with this. westbrook is still so raw and has a lot of room to improve still, which makes him so intriguing. i'm not sure he'll ever be the answer at PG, but he seems like he'd be the perfect 6th man. i guess most people don't like him, because he isn't a sexy name


And yet Gordon is younger and gets criticized harder than this kid. I say at this point he has not shown the skill set to be an elite PG that will save this franchise. Maybe he will this year. I am watching UCLA more because of their prospects. Scouts are fine but many of them only see a player 3 or 4 times a year. Scouts also are feeding the GMs what they want. Potential. So they will talk up the potentiality and disregard the proven. I think Carl Landry would have been drafted in the 1st round if he was a freshman coming out with his skill set.

Dominic James is a classic case on false potential. The dude was projected a mid to late first round. Prior to his sophmore slump he was as high as 10 in mock drafts. Now he isn't even considered the best at his position on his own team.

I am not comparing Westbrook to James. But people become infatuated with potentiality and fail to overlook the proven.

Kofi
03-08-2008, 04:46 PM
Here are the top-10 of NBADraft.net's 2001-2007 mock drafts, at around this point in the season. They're way off on some of their picks, which is why you can never take their predictions as gospel.

2001 (2/28/01) (http://web.archive.org/web/20010308185710/http://nbadraft.net/
)
1. Yao Ming (#1, 2002)
2. Eddie Griffin (#7)
3. Jason Richardson (#5)
4. Zach Randolph (#19)
5. Drew Gooden (#4, 2002)
6. Michael Bradley (#17)
7. Loren Woods (#46)
8. Troy Murphy (#14)
9. Shane Battier (#6)
10. Rod Grizzard (#38, 2002)


2002 (3/25/02) (http://web.archive.org/web/20020328181557/http://www.nbadraft.net/)
1. Yao Ming (BINGO)
2. Jason Williams (BINGO)
3. Qyntel Woods (#21)
4. Drew Gooden (BINGO)
5. Dajuan Wagner (#6)
6. Jared Jeffries (#11)
7. Chris Wilcox (#8)
8. Curtis Borchardt (#18)
9. Caron Butler (#10)
10. Kareem Rush (#20)


2003 (3/24/03) (http://web.archive.org/web/20030328183401/http://www.nbadraft.net/)
1. LeBron James (BINGO)
2. Darko Milicic (BINGO)
3. Carmelo Anthony (BINGO)
4. Emeka Okafor (#2, 2004)
5. Chris Bosh (#4)
6. T.J. Ford (#8)
7. Chris Kaman (#6)
8. Jarvis Hayes (#10)
9. Anderson Varejao (#30, 2004)
10. Sofoklis Schortsianitis (#34)


2004 (5/27/04) (http://web.archive.org/web/20040603124659/www.nbadraft.net/index.asp)
1. Emeka Okafor (#2)
2. Dwight Howard (#1)
3. Luol Deng (#7)
4. Shaun Livingston (BINGO)
5. Ben Gordon (#3)
6. Josh Smith (#17)
7. Martynas Andriuskevicius (#44, 2005)
8. Devin Harris (#5)
9. Andris Biedrins (#11)
10. Josh Childress (#6)


2005 (4/4/05) (http://web.archive.org/web/20050406143318/www.nbadraft.net/index.asp)
1. Andrew Bogut (BINGO)
2. Martynas Andriuskevicius (#44)
3. Chris Paul (#4)
4. Deron Williams (#3)
5. Fran Vasquez (#11)
6. Chris Taft (#42)
7. Tiago Splitter (#28, 2007)
8. Gerald Green (#18)
9. Nemanja Aleksandrov (2008)
10. Rashad McCants (#14)


2006 (4/4/06) (http://web.archive.org/web/20060404235029/http://nbadraft.net/)
1. Tyrus Thomas (#4)
2. Joakim Noah (#9, 2007)
3. Adam Morrison (BINGO)
4. LaMarcus Aldridge (#2)
5. Rudy Gay (#8)
6. Andrea Bargnani (#1)
7. Rodney Carney (#16)
8. Josh McRoberts (#37, 2007)
9. Brandon Roy (#6)
10. Patrick O'Bryant (#9)


2007 (2/28/07) (http://web.archive.org/web/20070306030755/http://nbadraft.net/)
1. Greg Oden (BINGO)
2. Kevin Durant (BINGO)
3. Brandan Wright (#8)
4. Julian Wright (#13)
5. Al Horford (#3)
6. Joakim Noah (#9)
7. Yi Jianlian (#6)
8. Jeff Green (#5)
9. Hasheem Thabeet (2008)
10. Al Thornton (#14)

Kofi
03-08-2008, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't mind ending up with a 2nd 1st round pick and taking Tyler Hansbrough, assuming he declares and is available. 23/10 in a big time conference, he could end up as Jeff Foster with offense.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Kofi is right about the mocks. As I said before in this thread even, just look at how nuts it gets after the first 4-5 picks, you have guys all over the place from mock to mock. Heck, they don't even agree on which guys will come out and which will stay.


Hmmmm...:chin:, it looks like you have thought this out already....but who do you have in your top 15 mock draft?
Well there's mock and there's best guys for Indy. I haven't thought much about the exact needs of other teams, just who I think is looking like an NBA player and getting noticed.

I have nothing for the two Euros, haven't seen them that I recall (WBCs?) But apparently those are 2 of the players in the 15. And then you have to wonder if Bird wouldn't chase one since he went after Saras, Baston and Stanko.


Anyway, Beasley, Rose, Bayless, EJ, Arthur, Love, Augustin, Rush, Mayo, Westbrook, Bill Walker (avoid, Jackson part 2), Collison and Chalmers to a lesser extent, Weaver as a specialist, Thabeet as a project. That's 15 that I think could find a place in the NBA. That won't be the first 15 taken though, not even close.

Budinger too but to me he's Dun part 2. Hibbert...maybe late first because of size and character, but he's going off the board earlier than that and it's a mistake.

DJ White, also because of character and because he plays smart. He reminds me of how Brad Miller was low profile but when you watched him you could see a solid fundamentals big with zero flash that would help your team. Of course White is playing his way up with heart while Brad's (apparent) lack of heart hurt him at the draft.

Some maybes with guys like Taj Gibson, Dove, Tyler Smith. Dime a dozen SFs in the NBA I think. Good kids but save that for the 2nd round.

Douglas-Roberts, Doresy, I'm not totally sold on the Memphis guys. Shipp at UCLA has really cooled. AJ Price has as well. All impressed me at times but they are wildly inconsistent and could just be solid NCAA kids without NBA caliber ability.

Jordon is just so young. He's got size but compared to Arthur it's just not close...yet. To be honest I didn't see Bynum taking off the way he did either.

I haven't watched enough Lawson (UNC), Hendrix (Alabama) or Randolph (LSU) to comment.


OWL - I said that because with your 7-8 pick (hopefully, if they miss the playoffs) you must take a guard, and I'd like it to be Augustin, though EJ makes sense too. So then it's 15 on the board and there's Love for whatever reason. Push someone down some stairs, whatever it takes, and bring him in too.

Not only does he play smart, he's a great character guy as well. If you want a solid fundamentals team a group with Love, Augustin and Granger is a good start. Then go get a coach that develops players rather than riding stars. Oh, and if Rush is on the board in the 2nd round by a miracle then I really party.

NONE of these guys look to be all-stars (maybe EJ), but all of them could make a nice dent in the skill deficiencies of the team.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2008, 07:23 PM
His playmaking skills are on par with a 19 year old Tony Parker's.No, they aren't. He NEVER runs plays like Tony Parker, that's COLLISON'S JOB. Watch the freaking games already, the Stanford game was a prime example of what Westbrook offers.

He's an NBA athlete, no doubt. He was huge at the end after being missing most of the night, but his plays were off of loose ball hustle and rebounds. When they needed a SET PLAY it went to Collison, he broke guys down and then made passes, including a great one in the lane that led to a dunk.

Westbrook is used to FEED LOVE, the two man where if they can't get it to Love then Westbrook is allowed to go off the dribble for HIS OWN SCORE.

This is every freaking UCLA game. I'm not making crap up. So how does doing that imply Tony Parker? When you watch MANU do you think Tony Parker? I don't.

Westbrook is much closer to a Manu type, though honestly Fred Jones remains the smack you in the face first impression.

Great kid, great athlete, and he'll help a team. But he hasn't yet played PG for UCLA this year and hasn't once shown anything close to that type of game.

Did you watch the Stanford/UCLA game?


he'll almost certainly be UCLA's starting PG next season.For someone raving about the "scout's" WTF are you talking about here? EVERYONE is saying that if he stays he doesn't get to play PG because UCLA has just recruited a couple of top notch PGs that will get that job. He'll stay at SG/SF if he stays (Shipp plays SG this year), and if he continues to project as a top 12 I don't think he will stay.


Look, I fully expect Westbrook to impress people in the tourney. He makes plays. He'll get that loose ball or get a big And-1, dunk on an outlet from Love, etc. He's likely to have a 20 point night even.

But this obsession with him as a PG is beyond me. Why would UCLA have Collison at PG over a guy expected to get drafted before Collison as an "NBA PG"?


i have to agree with this. westbrook is still so raw and has a lot of room to improve still, which makes him so intriguing. i'm not sure he'll ever be the answer at PG, but he seems like he'd be the perfect 6th man. i guess most people don't like him, because he isn't a sexy name
Some people are projecting him as UCLA's top pick, on a team sending Love and Collison to the same draft possibly. He's noticed.

owl
03-08-2008, 10:43 PM
OWL - I said that because with your 7-8 pick (hopefully, if they miss the playoffs) you must take a guard, and I'd like it to be Augustin, though EJ makes sense too. So then it's 15 on the board and there's Love for whatever reason. Push someone down some stairs, whatever it takes, and bring him in too.

Not only does he play smart, he's a great character guy as well. If you want a solid fundamentals team a group with Love, Augustin and Granger is a good start. Then go get a coach that develops players rather than riding stars. Oh, and if Rush is on the board in the 2nd round by a miracle then I really party.

NONE of these guys look to be all-stars (maybe EJ), but all of them could make a nice dent in the skill deficiencies of the team.

If the guard is the best talent available then, sure take the guard but with the need at
center nearly as great I would make sure this guard is much better than the bigs available
such as Thabeet, Love, ect...
I think they could get guard also in the second

Trader Joe
03-08-2008, 10:52 PM
If we get a second pick Hansborough is my first choice, but the homer in me wouldn't mind DJ.

AesopRockOn
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Wow, what if Mayo stayed? Kinda wish he did come out. Guess we'll see how USC does in the tourney.

Trader Joe
03-08-2008, 10:57 PM
Good Lord, Lawson has that sneaky speed you love in a PG. He doesn't look that fast, but he is able to outrun just about anyone.

Robertmto
03-09-2008, 01:02 AM
Wow, what if Mayo stayed? Kinda wish he did come out. Guess we'll see how USC does in the tourney.

They'll be one of the 7-8 sees that lose to a mid major. OJ stinks. He'll try and take over and get beat by a fundamental basketball team. Book it.

Kraft
03-09-2008, 02:21 AM
But this obsession with (Westbrook) as a PG is beyond me.

FWIW it's worth, I think you're spot-on with Westbrook. What you're running into is a lot like the Gordon love. They're just not willing to listen to the other side -- even when you think the player is, and will be, a good one.

I've watched the last four or five UCLA games. Westbrook just doesn't demonstrate the traditionally necessary point guard skills. Could they develop? I suppose -- but not soon enough for this year's draft, which I imagine he'll likely be in. The NBA isn't a place to develop better ball handling, you know?

How often do you see a college player that isn't a team's primary ball-handler turn into a really solid NBA point guard? Not very. There are, of course, exceptions. But it's certainly not the rule (Luther Head, anyone?). And in the draft's top 10, you should be gunning for a top-flight starter who's everything you want in the position.

Westbrook isn't that, and won't be in the next four months. Two years and four months? Maybe. But he probably won't give himself that chance.

Major Cold
03-09-2008, 06:20 AM
The high-end is Arenas o WEstbrook. And no one projected him to be what he is. Westbrook will be a tweener hoping to be a more athletic Mo Williams.

Kofi
03-09-2008, 04:15 PM
Westbrook is a project, but his upside dwarfs guys like Collison and Augustin. If you're happy with mediocrity, go ahead and draft one of those two midgets that won't be able to play defense in the NBA and whose upside is Damon Stoudamire. I have higher standards, and am more of a gambler, so give me the 19 year old, 6'3" athletic freak with lockdown defense and blossoming point guard skills.

Edit: for the record, there are several players that I'd take before Westbrook.

Beasley, Rose, Bayless, Mayo, and Randolph, absolutely. Gordon, Jordan, Lopez, Love, Lawson and Thabeet, possibly. However if none are available, and we're looking for a guard, I'd take Westbrook over Augustin and Collison without question.

croz24
03-09-2008, 07:41 PM
singletary with 14pts 3reb 3asts at half against maryland...

senior night for singletary...he puts up 27pts 6rbs 8asts...scores his 2,000th career point...and is getting his jersey retired...i will say this again, if we can get singletary in the 2nd round, he WILL be a steal!

croz24
03-09-2008, 07:50 PM
i may sound like a uva homer with my talking up of singletary, but i swear i have never been a fan of uva...i am hoosier and indiana colleges fan all the way...but singletary might just be the best pg in the country. no, he does not have the high-end potential of some of the other pgs, but i'd put his ability right up there with lawson and augustin as far as the here and now is concerned...

Naptown_Seth
03-09-2008, 09:58 PM
Good Lord, Lawson has that sneaky speed you love in a PG. He doesn't look that fast, but he is able to outrun just about anyone.
What I don't trust with him is his handles. To me he dribbles with a very fundamental, somewhat clunky style. At speed, yes, but not the kind of talent that will get by at the next level. If you run point you have to be able to yo-yo just to get by. I think Saras showed that pretty well.


Damon Stoudamire vs Fred Jones. Tough call. Seriously.

My issue with Westbrook is simply the "he's a PG". A lot of the scouting online right now is from the start of the season, not from after this year of play, so they were still going by what they thought would become of him. In practice it hasn't been that.

He is athletic, but there is a reason why Shipp works the SG spot. Westbrook is a great all-around guy, 6th man energy type of player. Collison is borderline I'll agree, I hate his poor inside shooting, at least at times. Augustin does have size to consider but he's got a hard dribble and plays with strength despite being smaller.

And frankly after watching Jax and Best get destroyed by Damon that first year I'd be pretty happy to get a PG like that.


Love - well this is a player I want, I think he would help with your team chemistry and running, and without hurting you much on the boards. Think Murphy except instead of the 3 you are getting great passing and a bit more of a Foster edge to him. And he's pure PF IMO, not a center at all.

But the only way they can afford to take him IMO is if they have a deal for JO in place. Ideally they'd be trading JO into that pick, say 14-15.

One other option depends on how PHX finishes. They've sold A LOT of picks in recent years and might come off that ATL pick if it's poor enough.


The other bigs I go Arthur all the way. I could almost see the good sense behind Arthur before Augustin. Thabeet I just can't deal with before the 15-16 range personally, too much "if" on that (PS, 8 freaking blocks vs Cincy!). Hibbert, no interest at this point though I really like him as a college player. Seems like a good kid.


And Rush, nothing he's done has changed my mind. To me he's like a SG version of McKey, or Bobby Phills as I've compared him before. That's my target for the 2nd pick if they could get one in the mid-20s. His game is well rounded, though like McKey he is willing to defer to others, almost to a fault. I guess I look at poise in a lot of these kids, and the methods they use to succeed.

That's why Hansbrough doesn't blow me away. Fundamentals, yes, but translatable to the NBA? Not sure on that. His methods are very NCAA basic to me. Disciplined certainly, but that won't fly in the NBA.

This is how some of these guys and teams get blown up in the first few rounds. The refs let them go at it more than usual and the underdog is able to be unorthodox and extra physical and some teams just don't have anywhere to go if the system is disrupted.

That's a big reason why the tourney helps identify top prospects. Not just the numbers they do, but how and when they come up big. Think about Alford going coast to coast, that was a skill that he wouldn't be able to get away with in the NBA. So he was an NCAA hero, sure, big play for the win, but not an NBA type of play.


Singletary - I haven't paid much attention to. Guess it's too late now unless they get the NIT. Well they have the Ga Tech game on ESPN2 this week for the ACC tourney.



FWIW, I had a dream last night that the Pacers were picking around 11th and Bayless slipped to them. Seriously. I literally woke up happy. I think the thought of it made me so excited I woke up. Talk about a dork out.

Kofi
03-09-2008, 10:29 PM
Seth, do you have any past scouting here at P.D. or IndyStar? I'd like to read it to see if you have a good eye for talent or not.

croz24
03-09-2008, 11:26 PM
well, i agree with seth about westbrook, arthur, hibbert, somewhat thabeet, rush, collison and hansbrough just mentioned in his last post...i do disagree with him however about love. the ONLY way i'd draft a role player who could provide great chemistry in the 1st given the pacers strong desire for talent upgrades, is if we were to draft a mayo-type with our 1st pick and acquire the 2nd pick to draft love...if we went big with a 2nd 1st rounder, i'd much rather prefer an arthur or jason thompson over love...i would also LOVE to get my hands on anthony randolph. i'd even take him with our own pick if we drafted 10+ and mayo didn't slide...

idioteque
03-09-2008, 11:37 PM
If you're happy with mediocrity, go ahead and draft one of those two midgets that won't be able to play defense in the NBA and whose upside is Damon Stoudamire.


Personally I don't know much about Westbrook but I sense you have incredibly high expectations of the Pacers in this draft and expect us to come away with a Dwayne Wade quality player or something. That's all well and good, but honestly, if we were to get a PG that was Damon Stoudamire quality I'd be thrilled. Stoudamire averaged 19/9 his first year in the league and posted similar numbers the next two years, he'd be more highly regarded as a player if he didn't spend the prime of his career in Portland during the dysfunctional Jail Blazers era.

croz24
03-10-2008, 12:41 AM
and just so you all know, the maac championship is monday night at 7pm...rider vs siena...i won't be able to watch it, but i expect somebody to post some reactions to how jason thompson plays. tonight against marist in the semis he put up 32pts 18rbs to lead rider to a 76-71 victory and has been awesome all year...projected as a mid-late 1st rounder with lottery potential...this kid is GOOD...

Trader Joe
03-10-2008, 12:50 AM
Thabeet has really impressed me whenever I see him play. He gets better every time I see him. Yeah his offensive game is a little raw, but his defense is extremely impressive. Plus after the whole Bynum fiasco I've learned not to pass on a big with good potential. Plus he manhandled DJ when they met head to head in Bloomington. Make no mistake he is the reason UConn beat us in that game. No one else this entire season has even come close to being able to push DJ around.
Hibbert is a good college player and a good kid, but I don't see him translating well to the NBA. Whats he averaging on the boards now 6 or 7 a game? Thats not very good especially considering he is 7 feet tall. Maybe he could give you a boost off the bench offensively, but I doubt he ever becomes a consistent starter in the NBA. If I were a contender looking for a scoring boost off the bench, I'd take a look at Hibbert in the 20-30 range. His size will probably get him off the board earlier than that though.

Whats the over/under right now on Bird taking the European kid thats been shooting up the boards?

Kofi
03-10-2008, 11:35 AM
He's both a Euro and a small forward. Bird must be licking his chops over the thought of drafting this kid in the lottery.

Trader Joe
03-10-2008, 05:16 PM
He's both a Euro and a small forward. Bird must be licking his chops over the thought of drafting this kid in the lottery.

He sounds like Nikoloz Tskitishvili whenver I read about him.

Trader Joe
03-10-2008, 05:18 PM
Personally I don't know much about Westbrook but I sense you have incredibly high expectations of the Pacers in this draft and expect us to come away with a Dwayne Wade quality player or something. That's all well and good, but honestly, if we were to get a PG that was Damon Stoudamire quality I'd be thrilled. Stoudamire averaged 19/9 his first year in the league and posted similar numbers the next two years, he'd be more highly regarded as a player if he didn't spend the prime of his career in Portland during the dysfunctional Jail Blazers era.

To be fair, Damon was one of the driving factors behind their JailBlazer persona.

Kofi
03-10-2008, 09:45 PM
I really want Jerryd Bayless, somehow, someway. Maybe we can package Shawne and our pick to move up and get him, provided he wont be there when we pick. #8 and Shawne to New York for #5 and Mardy Collins, something like that.

And yes I know a lot can and will change between now and June, that was just a sample scenario. :p

croz24
03-10-2008, 11:02 PM
i guess no updates on how jason thompson played...? pretty disappointed about that considering there's a great chance we could draft him...

well, it looks like he had 22pts 12reb 2blks in a 53-74 loss to siena in the waac championship game...finished the year averaging 21ppg 12rpg 2.5bpg...couldn't tell you how much i'd want another 1st rder to draft this kid to hopefully go along with mayo...

CableKC
03-10-2008, 11:46 PM
i guess no updates on how jason thompson played...? pretty disappointed about that considering there's a great chance we could draft him...

well, it looks like he had 22pts 12reb 2blks in a 53-74 loss to siena in the waac championship game...finished the year averaging 21ppg 12rpg 2.5bpg...couldn't tell you how much i'd want another 1st rder to draft this kid to hopefully go along with mayo...
I don't know about Mayo.....for charecter reasons.....but I agree about Thompson. He's one of those mid to late 1st round picks that I wouldn't try picking up somehow that I think can become a solid rotational player. He's been in the top 10 in total rebounding along with being one of the top defensive rebounders for the last 2 seasons. I'm just looking at him as a solid rebounding/shotblocker that has some decent athleticsm that can come in to help in the frontcourt.

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2008, 11:51 AM
I really want Jerryd Bayless, somehow, someway. Maybe we can package Shawne and our pick to move up and get him, provided he wont be there when we pick. #8 and Shawne to New York for #5 and Mardy Collins, something like that.

And yes I know a lot can and will change between now and June, that was just a sample scenario. :p
This we agree on. Bayless has some sick moves already and a solid, in-control presence. He scores a lot now but that seems to be driven by need most of the time rather than desire to dominate the FGAs.



He's both a Euro and a small forward. Bird must be licking his chops over the thought of drafting this kid in the lottery.

Praying for a Simon pre-emptive strike due to this fear.

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Seth, do you have any past scouting here at P.D. or IndyStar? I'd like to read it to see if you have a good eye for talent or not.
No, I'm not claiming to be a great scout. I rarely try to pick guys because normally I don't watch a lot of college ball.

But after the last draft and the current situation I took a greater interest in following prospects and have watched a ton this year thanks to Tivo. I made a pre-season list of all the TV games featuring top guys.

I do watch a ton of NBA ball and obviously have some awareness of what is an "NBA play" vs a college play, and this is exactly why I don't care for college ball that much, too amateurish and sloppy. I don't fault the kids for that, they aren't pros. I just hate the "college is better ball" when it's clearly a slower, simplified version of the sport.


My 3 serious interests in previous drafts, confirmable by friends with me at the time were - Steve Nash, Rip and...Avent over Dale. Now in fairness to myself, I didn't really watch Avent or Dale, that was numbers and which conference they were in. With Nash and Rip I thought they looked like NBA talent and fit what the team needed at the time. And its not like Nash was an instant hit.

I won't be surprised if all "my guys" bust because that's the nature of it. Frankly if they don't then I need to send my posts over to TPTB and get a job making money at this. ;) :D


Croz - I agreed actually in that post I think, suggesting you get the pick (for Love) via a JO trade. But then if you are at 15 already he might be the best on the board, and talent is like cash in the NBA. You never take less than what you can because it can always be spent on something else later.

idioteque
03-11-2008, 12:12 PM
To be fair, Damon was one of the driving factors behind their JailBlazer persona.

Fair enough, but say, Augustin has Stoudamire-type talent (no idea if he does or not). I haven't heard of anything that suggests he has a bad attitude. He could simply be Damon without the Damon attitude.

Kofi
03-11-2008, 12:22 PM
D.J. Augustin....

Draft Express has him at #9
NBADraft.net has him at #18

Taking into account his size, defensive issues, and falling shooting %'s, I tend to side with NBA Draft.net. Jameer Nelson - who Augustin is compared to in both size and skill - was a Wooden Award winner coming out, and he went #20. I think there's a chance we could make a move for Augustin (or Collison or Lawson) without having to use our own pick. Maybe a team in the 15-20 range would give up their pick for Shawne?

Thabeet has been playing well it seems. For a guy with little to no offense, that .611 fg% and .704 ft% sure is nice. His rebounding and shot blocking have both picked up as well. I've seen some people say that if Thabeet stays in school, he could make a push for #1 in 2009. I'm starting to re-heat up to the idea of taking him in the #7-10 range

Trader Joe
03-11-2008, 02:01 PM
D.J. Augustin....

Draft Express has him at #9
NBADraft.net has him at #18

Taking into account his size, defensive issues, and falling shooting %'s, I tend to side with NBA Draft.net. Jameer Nelson - who Augustin is compared to in both size and skill - was a Wooden Award winner coming out, and he went #20. I think there's a chance we could make a move for Augustin (or Collison or Lawson) without having to use our own pick. Maybe a team in the 15-20 range would give up their pick for Shawne?

Thabeet has been playing well it seems. For a guy with little to no offense, that .611 fg% and .704 ft% sure is nice. His rebounding and shot blocking have both picked up as well. I've seen some people say that if Thabeet stays in school, he could make a push for #1 in 2009. I'm starting to re-heat up to the idea of taking him in the #7-10 range

I like Thabeet, but I really feel like we need to upgrade the backcourt. Granted if we could get Thabeet and any of the three point guards you mentioned I could be down with that.

Will Galen
03-11-2008, 03:52 PM
This we agree on. Bayless has some sick moves already and a solid, in-control presence. He scores a lot now but that seems to be driven by need most of the time rather than desire to dominate the FGAs.

You've been giving love to Bayless and Love and I'm also aboard with both guys.

Interestingly enough both rate well in John Hollnger's rating system.

Here's his mid season ratings http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=DraftRater-080131

blanket
03-11-2008, 04:29 PM
You've been giving love to Bayless and Love and I'm also aboard with both guys.

Interestingly enough both rate well in John Hollnger's rating system.

Here's his mid season ratings http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=DraftRater-080131

Can anyone with Insider access post this?

Naptown_Seth
03-12-2008, 10:28 PM
Has Hollinger rerun this data, or I should say published it again? At the time he had to list all the qualifying factors that might be throwing off the data.

I was waiting to see what it showed after a full year, even though we all know that freshman stats and senior stats aren't the same thing. EJ and Rose are probably going to sort out some of their freshman issues, same with Mayo, etc.

Naptown_Seth
03-12-2008, 10:32 PM
Draft Express has him at #9
NBADraft.net has him at #18
This is the problem too. I sure as F-bomb hope Bird knows how to GM because this draft is pretty wide open with all sorts of potential options for a wily dealer.

Not that these guys will save the team, but if you are really trying to rework stuff a savvy GM could make a lot of headway on that this summer.


I don't think Shawne nets you better than a #25 pick, if that.

CableKC
03-12-2008, 10:41 PM
This is the problem too. I sure as F-bomb hope Bird knows how to GM because this draft is pretty wide open with all sorts of potential options for a wily dealer.

Not that these guys will save the team, but if you are really trying to rework stuff a savvy GM could make a lot of headway on that this summer.

I don't think Shawne nets you better than a #25 pick, if that.
Great....we're screwed.

Jose Slaughter
03-12-2008, 11:26 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=DraftRater-080131

Draft Rater: Beasley has most pro potential among collegians

By John Hollinger
ESPN Insider

Let's face it, the NBA is a busy place in February. But before we get too consumed by trades and All-Star weekend and playoff races and what not, let's take a step back and have another look at the draft. Actually, the fans of a few teams (hello, Heat fans!) will be more than happy to do this already as they look ahead to whom their teams might select this June.

To review, last year I created a system to rate college players' pro potential based on their NCAA stats; earlier this year I updated that with a list of the top returnees from a year ago.

Now, with half a season of college stats under our belts, we can start evaluating players based on their performances this season.

Before we do, let's make sure you take this list with the proper mouthful of salt. Because this is based on a half-season, we're looking at samples of 400-600 minutes from most of these players. Thus, short-term flukes can have a dramatic impact on the rankings. Additionally, in a universe as vast as Division I college basketball, with minutes samples of this size, one should expect a couple of players who don't really belong to creep into the top of the list just by chance. In a couple of cases, it appears that is what might have happened.

Additionally, a lot of teams play cupcakes in the first half of the season and pad their stats against bad teams. I have a schedule adjustment in the rankings, but it's possible it doesn't deal with this harshly enough; we'll know better once we see the year-end rankings in April.

Finally, this whole system relies on heights and birthdates being correctly reported. If either isn't the case, then the whole thing blows up. With the reputation college heights have for being inflated, this factor is of particular concern.

Of the players on the list below, the one most vulnerable in that respect is the No. 2 prospect, Oklahoma's Blake Griffin. He's listed at 6-10 but some scouts suspect he's only 6-8; were that the case, he'd fall to the No. 6 spot.

Also, the No. 12 prospect, North Carolina's Ty Lawson, would drop to No. 15 if he's an inch shorter than his listed 6-0, as many surmise; and teammate Tyler Hansbrough would tumble out of the top 20 entirely if he turns out to be only 6-8.

With all that said, these would be the top 20 players if the draft were held today. I used a minimum of 400 minutes played this season to qualify. Note also that stats are through Monday, so it doesn't include more recent games, such as K-State's win over Kansas Wednesday night:

Holy Freshmen, Batman! The first thing that jumps out is that nine of the top 11 players are freshmen, including the first three players on the list. This is indeed a highly regarded freshman class, led by consensus top pick Michael Beasley. By contrast, it's a somewhat lightly regarded class of returnees.

But the proportions are still a bit shocking. And this is without the celebrated freshmen who didn't make the cut (more on them in a minute), and one other freshman, Austin Daye of Gonzaga, falling 18 minutes short of the threshold (he would have been sixth).

Upperclassmen are an endangered species here. Only four cracked the top 20, and one of them, Danny Green of North Carolina, might be a short-term fluke. His numbers weren't nearly this good a year ago, and he barely cleared the 400-minute threshold. The highest-rated senior, Oregon's Malik Hairston, also looks fishy; he might have trouble keeping up his scintillating 65.2 true shooting percentage.

That said, I should point out that this list might become more balanced by the end of the year, since a number of upperclassmen who were considered strong draft candidates had rough starts to their seasons (more on that below).

The Pac-10 rules: Those of you who think the Pac-10 (or at least the nine Pac-10 teams that aren't located in Corvallis, Ore.) is the best conference in the country just got a whole lot of ammo to support your cause. Six of the top 17 players come from that league, representing five schools. Another Pac-10 player, Brook Lopez of Stanford, has a decent chance to crack the top 20 with more minutes. He missed the early part of the season when most of these guys were padding their stats against the St. Leo's and IUPUIs of the world, so his numbers don't look as good right now; he's only 30th.

What about the other freshmen? As I mentioned, several prominent freshmen aren't on the list right now. Derrick Rose pulled in at 25th, missing the cut partly because his assist ratio is so low the computer sees him as an undersized shooting guard. Syracuse's Donte Greene is 26th, with a very negative pure point ratio hurting his rating. It's easy to imagine both moving up the list as they get acclimated to the college game and spread the ball around a bit more.

A few others face a longer road up the charts. O.J. Mayo (371) failed to impress, partly because he is already 20 years old, and partly because of his -1.82 pure point ratio. Let's just say he's got a lot of work to do if he's going to play point in the pros.

The system was beyond unimpressed with DeAndre Jordan (353), the Texas A&M freshman who has lured scouts with raw talent but isn't putting it to consistently effective use as a collegian. His four steals on the season were the least of any prospect, suggesting he might not be as athletic as we've been led to believe. Also, he averages a whopping six turnovers for every assist.

Indiana's Eric Gordon also scored far worse than expected (439), partly because the formula wonders how athletic a 6-5 guy can be when he has had only eight offensive rebounds all season, and partly because his other numbers are nice but hardly special.

Who the heck is … ? OK, there are four names on this list that nobody expected to be here. All four are freshmen who have played well in the early going. As I mentioned above, these could be outliers based on the small sample of minutes, but these players at least warrant tracking as the season goes on.

Let's start with DeJuan Blair, who is at least something of a prospect -- Chad Ford's big board has him at No. 91 right now. He is an undersized power forward in the Jason Maxiell mold, with an insane rebound rate (nearly one every two minutes) and a great nose for the ball (1.9 steals per game). Even with a ding for being an undersized 4, his numbers are eye-grabbers. But he is only 6-7 and he plays inside, so you can understand why NBA teams are skittish.

The others aren't even on the radar but have played extremely well in the early part of the season.

Dar Tucker is a 6-5 swingman for DePaul who has done a little bit of everything for a mediocre team. He is second on the team in scoring and rebounding even though he comes off the bench.

Robbie Hummel is a scrawny-looking forward for Purdue who is shooting 43.9 percent on 3-pointers and, more surprisingly, is leading the team in rebounding and blocked shots. Basically, he is a high-efficiency guy who has shown a surprising willingness to get his nose dirty.

Like Blair, Butler's Matt Howard is an undersized power forward (6-8, 225) who has been very effective in the basket area, ranking second in scoring for the nation's No. 12 team. Butler is way better than the rest of its league and won't play anyone of consequence until the NCAA Tournament, but it's worth noting that Howard played very well against good teams in the early season. In particular, he destroyed Ohio State with 23 points on 9-of-13 shooting, despite giving up several inches to the likes of Kosta Koufos and Othello Hunter.

Why does my computer hate all the bigs? No, my draft formula doesn't hate all big men … just the ones in this draft. Among players 6-10 or taller, only Oklahoma freshman Blake Griffin ranks in the top 15. The others? Not so much.

Looking at the big men in Chad Ford's top 30, we see only Roy Hibbert, Kosta Koufos and Marreese Speights appear in our top 20, at the back end, while others didn't even come close. Hibbert isn't having as good a season as he did a year ago, so he has slipped, while Koufos and Speights simply haven't done anything to wow the judges so far.

I already discussed DeAndre Jordan and Brook Lopez, but we can go right down the list. Darrell Arthur (446) was one of my highest-rated returnees, but he takes a hard ding for a substandard rebound rate and has been too turnover-prone, with nearly two a game. DeVon Hardin's stats (376) never have backed up the hype, and this season is no exception. Trent Plaisted's numbers (375) also leave a lot to be desired -- his low rates of blocks and steals are major negative indicators. JaVale McGee (387) has four turnovers for every assist, as does Hasheem Thabeet (339). Ouch.

What about those guys from last time? You'll notice that few names are the same from when I presented my list of the top returnees a few weeks ago. There's a reason for this -- a lot of them are really struggling. I dealt with Hibbert and Arthur above, but there's more where that came from.

Chase Budinger was the top returnee but has dropped several spots thanks to some worrisome ballhandling numbers in the early part of the season and a low rate of steals. Three "who dats?" on the list -- Stanford's Lawrence Hill, Arkansas's Patrick Beverley and Tennessee's Chris Lofton -- have been unable to come close to last year's pace and have tumbled well down the table.

Of the group, Ryan Anderson, Ty Lawson and Clemson's K.C. Rivers (who was 21st) are the only ones to come close to replicating their performances from a year ago. We'll see if they snap back in the second half.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.

Kofi
03-13-2008, 12:02 AM
Very interesting read. Did it list the entire rankings or just the column?

wintermute
03-13-2008, 01:24 AM
it's still the same article from feb

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=36600

us stat freaks are waiting for the full season update :D

Kofi
03-13-2008, 01:36 AM
Blake Griffin looks very good. NBADraft.net has him #1 next year and Draft Express has him #3. If he comes out this year and slips to us, he could be J.O.'s replacement.

Trader Joe
03-13-2008, 01:47 AM
Griffin is like a more athletic version of Kevin Love IMO. Doesn't get enough pub nationally because he plays for Oklahoma, but when you watch him play you can't help but come away impressed.

croz24
03-13-2008, 01:09 PM
Griffin is like a more athletic version of Kevin Love IMO. Doesn't get enough pub nationally because he plays for Oklahoma, but when you watch him play you can't help but come away impressed.

until you realize he's a 6'8 pf

Young
03-13-2008, 01:41 PM
until you realize he's a 6'8 pf

So is Elton Brand. Being 6'8 doesn't mean you can't play PF. Nor does being 7'0 mean you can play PF.

rexnom
03-13-2008, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I'm completely sold on Kevin Love. And he's going to slip too, especially in individual workouts. If he slips to the late 1st round then that's a guy you have to think we'd be able to trade Shawne (and maybe Hulk, if necessary) for.

EDIT: Love would be like Jeff Foster here. Just a complete fan favorite. These are definitely the types of guys we need. More than ever, it's becoming clear that we just need guys who know how to play. Love would be great in JOB's system.

Trader Joe
03-13-2008, 06:41 PM
until you realize he's a 6'8 pf

Griffin and Love are nearly the same size. In fact if anything Griffin may be a little bigger.

owl
03-13-2008, 06:50 PM
Thabeet or Love for the Pacers. Thabeet will bring excitement back and defense to the team and Love is a good all round player with rebounding skills and fast break initiator.

Naptown_Seth
03-13-2008, 09:06 PM
it's still the same article from feb

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=36600

us stat freaks are waiting for the full season update :D
Sheesh...this is what the dude does and he already mentioned he needed more data. Time to send him an email or something. I mean it's March now, roll that list out.


Anyway, Singletary gone but ESPN 360 has some replay games so I'm watching Va vs Duke. He's a decent scorer here, some modest moves at this point, but I'm not sure. Maybe in the 20's? I'll keep him on the watch list.


WEAVER - brilliant first half vs Oregon. He's a SF at WSU, but really more NBA 1/2. He is asked to initiate plays in the HC as a true PG, but also plays off the ball. If you haven't seen WSU before they basically run a 3 guard team quite often.

Anyway, his thing is defense but tonight he made some really impressive passes, some clever, some requiring a difficult throw in a tight spot, and also some off the dribble drive. I'd considered him a defensive ace that just doesn't tank you when he plays, but right now he's more Diener if you swapped 3 ball for defense.

This includes a first half with 5-6 assists to no TOs, and another assist the dude pulled a Foster on (miss at rim alone, catch his miss, rebunny for the score).

He's stayed on the early 20's radar, probably no shot at him and you just can't reach down from 13-14 or higher, that would be a mistake.

Weaver and Rush just make interesting cases. I called Rush a SG McKey, but really Weaver is that even moreso. The both read the court pretty well on defense, they see guys getting open and go try to fix it, as well as finding a body on rebounds. And both can hold their own on offense without being the big star.


And he's (Love) going to slip too, especially in individual workouts.w00t, fall to our 2nd pick (post trade ;) )
I think you are right. Vert, reach, etc and suddenly it's "uh oh", though clearly those factors don't come close to holding back his game. He's definitely a guy you have to see to appreciate how he does it.

Naptown_Seth
03-13-2008, 09:10 PM
BTW, I'm fine with the bumps on this thread 3 years from now. I'm sure we'll get a laugh at my expense, and probably a few others. :D

Will Galen
03-13-2008, 10:11 PM
BTW, I'm fine with the bumps on this thread 3 years from now. I'm sure we'll get a laugh at my expense, and probably a few others. :D

Bump

I'm rushing things I know . . .

aceace
03-14-2008, 04:50 PM
We have the #10 or 11 pick in the 2nd rnd as of now. They have DJ White near there. IMHO that would be a steal. I would also like to see Drew Neitzel in camp as he's expected to go undrafted. He plays all out tenacious everything.

Trader Joe
03-14-2008, 04:52 PM
We have the #10 or 11 pick in the 2nd rnd as of now. They have DJ White near there. IMHO that would be a steal. I would also like to see Drew Neitzel in camp as he's expected to go undrafted. He plays all out tenacious everything.

Neitzel probably won't have much of a career in the NBA. He's got Europe written all over him. White will probably be a first round pick right now. Last I checked NBAdraft.net has him going 21st overall to Golden State. Which I think would be a pretty good fit for him.

croz24
03-14-2008, 10:26 PM
ej CONTINUES to stink up the joint...people will keep talking up his "potential" but even moreso than ever i pray we do not draft him if he's on the board...

Trader Joe
03-14-2008, 11:25 PM
I want Eric Gordon no where near the Pacers. He has even managed to chase me away.

jmoney2584
03-15-2008, 03:24 AM
I'll take me some DJ White though..

Rajah Brown
03-15-2008, 07:03 AM
I've been consistently defending EJ in this thread. But I'm starting to
wonder a bit. His understanding of how to play the game hasn't
grown in the least this year. I attribute alot of that to poor coaching.
But some of it's on him too (the fact that he seemingly has a green
light at all times doesn't help).

That said though, the kid does have a slightly (hairline fracture)
broken left wrist. I'm sure that's affecting his shot some, particularly
from distance.

Naptown_Seth
03-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Neitzel probably won't have much of a career in the NBA. He's got Europe written all over him. White will probably be a first round pick right now. Last I checked NBAdraft.net has him going 21st overall to Golden State. Which I think would be a pretty good fit for him.
Yes, unfortunately White is playing his way out of the Pacers 2nd pick. As Shade and I kicked around last week, maybe you move Shawne to get a shot at White? Makes sense to me even though I like Shawne's game more. The fact is that Danny/Dun sit in front of him, whereas White would fill the more proper true backup PF role better. Plus DJ clearly has a nice maturity and presence to his game, something the Pacers badly need.

EJ on the other hand...no way, not yet. He's struggled lately and while you can't doubt his gifts you also can't afford to wait too long for him to get it figured out.


Hibbert had a big game but I'm still down on him as a pro.

Rose is a hard read still. 25 is nice, but low assists and consider the opponent. Is there a team you want to see Final Four tested more than them, and Rose especially?

It's looking like NIT if you want to see some of these prospects one more time before the draft. You know plenty of great players have come from teams that didn't have success (at least I think this is true, guess I should make a list and check), but it's hard not to have some concerns when a "top" player can't get the "W" on the board for his team, at least occassionally. Okay, not everyone can win the big one or the conference, but damn, if your team is on the bubble and you can't make a good showing in round 1 of your conf. tourney?


I couldn't get WSU/Stanford or USC/UCLA on my DTV package (don't have the sports group for all Fox Sports). That ticked me off, those were the two games to watch yesterday in terms of prospects vs prospects in an important game.

Weaver went off it appears - 25, 10 FTA, 12 boards, 4 ast and 3 steals. 21-22 area unless he has a bad outing. I think I like Rush more still, but either will do even though they fill somewhat different roles.

Lopez is staying in the top 5 at this rate, and deservedly so. I'm trying to guess which top 10 big man will flop, seems to always happen, and he seems more likely than Beasley. But watching him play he seems legit, so who knows. Hibbert/Thabeet might go top 10 and take care of this I suppose. Or this is one of the few drafts with every expectation met (doubtful).

Looks like Collison, Love, Westbrook and Mayo all did what they do, all maintaining top 15-18 status. Augustin also came up big for Texas to hold his status. One thing about all of these guys (Lopez and Weaver too) is that in the big game vs top teams they were all the guys their teammates and coaches turned to in order to get it done. That says something about them I think.

Rajah Brown
03-15-2008, 12:29 PM
Naptown-

Re: EJ

We can't afford to wait around too long for him to 'get it
figured out' ? What the heck does that mean ?

The kid is 19. He's injured. He's playing in, at best, a
mediocre offensive (using the term very loosely) system.

I won't argue that the Pacers should draft him (though, at #10
or lower I sure would). But it's not like they don't have 2-3 years
to wait on his game to mature. They aren't going anywhere of any
signifigance any time soon.

Trader Joe
03-15-2008, 12:32 PM
Lots of big games today. About to take in the North Carolina-Va Tech game.

Trader Joe
03-15-2008, 02:38 PM
Hansbrough is a flat out winner.

croz24
03-15-2008, 02:41 PM
...but not somebody you use a draft pick on if you're the pacers...

Trader Joe
03-15-2008, 02:46 PM
...but not somebody you use a draft pick on if you're the pacers...

If you get a second pick in the 20-30 range? I don't see why not.

croz24
03-15-2008, 02:56 PM
for one, i doubt he even comes out after this year...but mainly because he's an extremely undersized pf who's game already doesn't really translate well for the nba...hansbrough will be a poor man's david lee. not something i'd want to trade a jeff foster for, which is what you'd have to do to acquire hansbrough...

Trader Joe
03-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Griffin with a big game against Texas but OU got blown out anyway.

CableKC
03-15-2008, 08:49 PM
If Love and UCLA has a decent tournament run....if we end up with the 11th or 12th pick in the draft....I can see Bird making a run for him.

I'm beginning to think that Bird may reach for him much like he did with Shawne.

If we somehow end up with a 8th or 9th pick....Love may not be a good pick....but at the 11th or 12th spot....I think that it makes more sense.

Kofi
03-15-2008, 08:51 PM
Every game I watch our horrible defense, I'm growing more on the idea of taking Thabeet. The best defensive big man prospect in quite a few years and his offensive game is much better than most thought it would be at this point.

CableKC
03-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Every game I watch our horrible defense, I'm growing more on the idea of taking Thabeet. The best defensive big man prospect in quite a few years and his offensive game is much better than most thought it would be at this point.
That makes too much sense for TPTB to make a pick that can actually play defense.......:D

owl
03-15-2008, 09:24 PM
From where the Pacers will be picking Thabeet makes the most sense. My concern is he will be
picked 5-8. I think if that is going to happen the Pacers do what they need to get him.
The Pacers desparately need a good big and point guard who can defend and score.

Hicks
03-15-2008, 09:41 PM
I was interested in Thabeet until I saw the report on draft express mention one of his weaknesses was guarding his man. Plus the whole lack of offense.

What's supposed to have improved about it?

CableKC
03-15-2008, 09:51 PM
I was interested in Thabeet until I saw the report on draft express mention one of his weaknesses was guarding his man. Plus the whole lack of offense.

What's supposed to have improved about it?
One of the things that I have learned about our "team defense" is that it requires EVERYONE to be on the same page and have a very good understanding of what needs to be done.

Can someone tell me if a good defensive Big Man like Thabeet means that he should be able to better pick up the "team defense" concept?

From my understanding, just because a player has the skills to be a solid defensive player doesn't automatically mean that he can be a smart enough player to grasp the "team defense" concept. A good example is a player like Pietrus....he's supposed to be a somewhat solid Perimeter defender....but when it comes to basketball smarts...he doesn't have the smarts to be able to understand and grasp how to implement this "team defense".

owl
03-15-2008, 10:05 PM
Javale Mcghee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJilDqw8JOY

Another center prospect

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/javalemcgee.html

esabyrn333
03-16-2008, 12:34 PM
I think everyone are getting fooled on Eric Gordon. The guy has been hurt and he had his coach fired in the middle of the season. He is only 19 and has had to deal with alot of presure with the coach situation and pretty much has been given the O and told to carry the team. Everyone has said he has regressed but they don't talk about the fact Sampson left also. What do you expect. Plus I believe the basketball gods are at work and are sending him to us. I have a feeling this is going to happen. I have had this feeling 2 other times in my life. The fist time I saw Marshal Faulk in collage play I said he had to go to the Colts and agian the year Payton was coming out of collage and both times it has happened. I would love to get D-Rose but I have a hunch EJ is coming to the Pacers to start the return of a team the state will rally around. The fact that he is from Indiana does not play a role it my thought process, this kid is going to be special mark my words. He is no Steve Alford.

LoneGranger33
03-16-2008, 12:51 PM
I think Love is going to be a huge bust.

croz24
03-16-2008, 02:02 PM
love will probably be a bust, but he has a better chance of making it than hansbrough does...

Naptown_Seth
03-16-2008, 02:40 PM
I watched the first half of OK/TX and started in with UCLA/Stanford late in the first.

Some notes:

Augustin gets paired up defending Griffin, PG on PF, thanks to zone. Griffin drives right by him. Uh oh.

Griffin has some handles, plus. Augustin is clearly an offensive PG, minus. I like Augustin but damn...gotta be able to stop that guy from driving past you out top.


UCLA-Stanford - perfect example of the 4 major players here.

Collison - the big game, scored a ton. Here's what it reinforced. He is quick, he can get into the lane, he makes some nice passes, but not like Bayless or Augustin. Decent defender, gambles a bit like Army.

The bad in all of this, he insisted on overdribbling much of the time and forced the action, even after they went zone to stop it. This meant that UCLA was often in a bind late in the clock. A few times he saved them with a drive at the last second, but then it was him that created the situation too.

He hit a nice mid runner in the 2nd, but you still see the hints of his iffy mid-range game in general. I hate to say it but he's a little too Best/Army at times. Not a top 15.


Westbrook - all through this thread I and others have said "he's not a PG". I hope anyone that disagrees watched this game. He's an energy playmaker. Perfect examples were a loose ball he jumped on, ran up court hard and then dumped for the fastbreak layup (forget who). He also had an impressive baseline reverse that he missed (and Love pulled a Foster on).

What he didn't do was EVER run point. And he certainly doesn't have the gear shifting and handles that Collison does. If you need a Fred Jones, get him. If you need a pure PG, you have to go Collison.


Love - hurt in the first, that's a negative (back spasms, yikes). But in the 2nd you saw his full range of game. He created a bunch of poor shots with his smart, standup defense and this included a jump ball created, he never gambled but never had the spectacular defensive play either, he didn't muscle Lopez but he did manage to find his way to several loose balls and rebounds.

Late in the game and you need an in-bounds, who takes it out? Love of course. What's he do? FULL COURT PASS to Keefe (who blew 2 FTs). That's Love. Smart, cool, great passer. Got popped in the face and didn't even react.


Lopez - he reminds me a bit of Dale Davis in his body type. I think he's legit in general, not sure he's franchise capable though. Frankly he's one of the few true threats Stanford puts out there, and they are a good team which says a lot about him.

Still he'd look better with his own Collison. I'm not sure he's got the post offense to be honest. I wouldn't avoid him, but for the Pacers there are going to be too many better options on the board.


Rush in the KS game. Please, please, please get this kid. Make whatever move it takes. He's not Reggie, he's not going to be an all-star, but he certainly looks like he could match what Danny and Dun are bringing right now.


Speaking of Rush and KS. Great game today in TX/KS, even though it means very little to their tourney situation. Good matchups here in the back court.

Naptown_Seth
03-16-2008, 02:44 PM
Thabeet shows ZERO ability to man defend. His "thing" is shot blocking, and it's not a fluke. He's cat quick to the ball in help situations. The concern has to be that this is his total focus and that it might be tough to break him of that habit.

You like blocks, but at the expense of rebounding position and the ability to defend your own man?

Contrast that with the less athletic, zero shot blocking Love, who has success specifically because of his discipline in the post and in PnR coverage.

He NEVER chases for the block. And he never gets the blocks you might like either. He's a Foster, feet planted, arms up, won't bite a fake but can be beaten around if you make a good move.

Put Thabeet with Love and you can really hurt someone. ;) Love as first line, Thabeet cleaning up from weak side. Neither are ace rebounding solutions, but for different reasons (size vs instinct).

croz24
03-16-2008, 03:05 PM
rush and courtney lee are interchangeable imo...i'd love either one as a late 1st/early 2nd pick for us...

Rajah Brown
03-16-2008, 05:41 PM
One thing I'll say in Collison's defense is that UCLA doesn't really
have any great perimeter shooters to kick out too. It seems like
he gets into the lane at will, but his options to make plays are
minimized a bit. And he's not strong enough up top yet to take
contact and finish on his own.

I like him, but I'd take Augustine in front of him. He's not the
defender Collsion is, but his overall offensive game is much better.

owl
03-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Thabeet shows ZERO ability to man defend. His "thing" is shot blocking, and it's not a fluke. He's cat quick to the ball in help situations. The concern has to be that this is his total focus and that it might be tough to break him of that habit.

You like blocks, but at the expense of rebounding position and the ability to defend your own man?

Contrast that with the less athletic, zero shot blocking Love, who has success specifically because of his discipline in the post and in PnR coverage.

He NEVER chases for the block. And he never gets the blocks you might like either. He's a Foster, feet planted, arms up, won't bite a fake but can be beaten around if you make a good move.

Put Thabeet with Love and you can really hurt someone. ;) Love as first line, Thabeet cleaning up from weak side. Neither are ace rebounding solutions, but for different reasons (size vs instinct).

That would be my dream draft for this year. Thabeet and Love.
I would still take Thabeet first. He would add major excitement to the Pacers.
Heck, Mutoumbo is still effective at 102.

CableKC
03-16-2008, 08:44 PM
If you get a second pick in the 20-30 range? I don't see why not.
If we had a 20-30 pick.....if the guy in your avatar was available...assuming that we don't draft a Big Man first....then I would want DJ White before I want Hansbourogh.

CableKC
03-16-2008, 08:56 PM
Thabeet shows ZERO ability to man defend. His "thing" is shot blocking, and it's not a fluke. He's cat quick to the ball in help situations. The concern has to be that this is his total focus and that it might be tough to break him of that habit.

You like blocks, but at the expense of rebounding position and the ability to defend your own man?

Contrast that with the less athletic, zero shot blocking Love, who has success specifically because of his discipline in the post and in PnR coverage.

He NEVER chases for the block. And he never gets the blocks you might like either. He's a Foster, feet planted, arms up, won't bite a fake but can be beaten around if you make a good move.

Put Thabeet with Love and you can really hurt someone. ;) Love as first line, Thabeet cleaning up from weak side. Neither are ace rebounding solutions, but for different reasons (size vs instinct).
It sounds like he's a shotblocker but not a decent man-to-man defender.

Assuming that JONeal isn't here....either due to a trade or cuz he's injured....do you think that we need a shotblocker ( which Thabeet appears to be ) more then we need a Big Man Defender ( which Thabeet doesn't appear to be )?

jmoney2584
03-16-2008, 08:57 PM
If we had a 20-30 pick.....if the guy in your avatar was available...assuming that we don't draft a Big Man first....then I would want DJ White before I want Hansbourogh.

DJ White is longer and more athletic than Psycho-T. By all reports, DJ was the most aggressive and physically assertive of Team USA's squad at the PanAm games this past year. He was going up against grown men on a gamely basis and just flat out besting them. I think though DJ is only 6'9, his absurd length and tremendous heart will carve out a niche for him in this league. I could see him averaging 16 and 10 consistently. I will be curious to see how he and Hansbrough matchup if IU makes it out of the first round of the tourney.

Kofi
03-16-2008, 09:09 PM
Kevin Love is short, fat, slow, and unathletic. Not exactly a recipe for success in the NBA. Yes he's smart and skilled, but I doubt that's enough to make up for his physical short comings. I wouldn't take him any higher than the mid-teens, and even that's likely a reach.