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View Full Version : Trading JO and Tinsley will Exercise all our Demons. And now is the time.



McKeyFan
12-29-2007, 11:45 AM
This team needs a clean break.

From the brawl.

From police incidents and embarrassing behavior.

From mediocrity.

From continually injury prone key players.

From years of having no go-to player at the end of games.

From chest-pumping egos that make the team concept slightly murky.


Can we just package JO and JT in a trade and get it over with already? Now is the time: they are both playing well. Neither has received a terminal injury yet (and both could at ANY time, we all suspect). Neither are 30 yet.

We won't get full value, but we'll get something. And we'll get the clean break we desparately need from the past.

It feels like we've lanced the boil but left a little poison. It will grow back.

I know many will flame and rage over this post, but I surely hope I don't have to say I told you so when one or both of these guys gets seriously injured. Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.

D-BONE
12-29-2007, 11:55 AM
This team needs a clean break.

From the brawl.

From police incidents and embarrassing behavior.

From mediocrity.

From continually injury prone key players.

From years of having no go-to player at the end of games.

From chest-pumping egos that make the team concept slightly murky.


Can we just package JO and JT in a trade and get it over with already? Now is the time: they are both playing well. Neither has received a terminal injury yet (and both could at ANY time, we all suspect). Neither are 30 yet.

We won't get full value, but we'll get something. And we'll get the clean break we desparately need from the past.

It feels like we've lanced the boil but left a little poison. It will grow back.

I know many will flame and rage over this post, but I surely hope I don't have to say I told you so when one or both of these guys gets seriously injured. Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.

At different moments since the end of last season I've been where you are now. I know I've even posted at times that we truly need to move out the entire core we've had over the past 5-7 yrs, not just Jack and Ron.

Then we go on a little spurt just enough to satsify me and I can live with it just a little longer. I feel fairly confident that small spurts of good play are all we can really expect. That means spinning our wheels in medicority purgatory.

I definitely think a trade of some manner is seriously needed. Going this route means it will probably get worse before it gets better, but I do think finally putting this chapter in Pacers history behind us would probably be good for the psyche.

The other option is to try and get something for some of our young guys or a guy like Dun who's playing well. I don't know that either Dun or Granger will ever amount to all that much, although I'd rather give them a chance minus JO and JT than the other way around I suppose.

dal9
12-29-2007, 11:57 AM
Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.

I thought before the season that it would be a shock if this team makes the playoffs. Right now, they are on pace to do so, which is a credit to their effort and the coaches, given the raw talent level here. The last thing we need to do is to reduce the talent level further by trading away two of our best players for the sake of trading them...

Rinuven
12-29-2007, 11:59 AM
Inconsistent play is one thing. But the "type" of injury you are describing could happen to any player at any time. It's the nature of professional sports.

You can talk trades all day, but I have yet to see anyone suggest a trade that is a) possible and b) will improve our team at those two positions. Unless, of course, your opinion of JO and Tins has them in the bottom third of the league at their positions. If that's the case, I guess your options may appear to be a bit more open.

I think we need to take a deep breath after each of these losses.

D-BONE
12-29-2007, 12:04 PM
To those posters who preach patience after losses, what is it that you can see coming out of the current situation that merits it?

In other words, what good do you see coming from this group or what positive development do you forecast down the road that might result in us ever gettng out of the mediocrity or worse cycle?

grace
12-29-2007, 12:09 PM
You can talk about trades until you're blue in the face but until someone can find a team that wants your demons you're wasting your breath.

bulldog
12-29-2007, 12:10 PM
D-bone is getting at something, and I think its this: its very much because we are over-achieving right now that a trade might be in order.

Take a look, fellas, this is as good as it gets. Obie gets props for getting so much out of a mediocre group, but do we really want to wait three years toiling in mediocrity until the team tunes him out like they tuned out Carlisle?

Obviously it all depends on what we get in return, but I would move JO if possible. I'd be looking for energy guys, draft picks, and some cap relief (although as long as we have Murph and Duns contracts getting significantly under the cap is probably unrealistic).

tdubb03
12-29-2007, 12:13 PM
That'd be what, $32-35 million in salary? Tough to find any team wanting to make that deal.

Rajah Brown
12-29-2007, 12:25 PM
I'll vote in favor of patience if only because a better trade might
likely be had as the season wears on. As we get into late-Jan/early-
Feb and towards the 45-50 game mark, teams will either be looking
for the piece or pieces to put them over the top or they'll be Lottery
bound.

I may be in the minority. But I see no sense in making a deal that's
aimed at improving the Pacers 'this' year. I'd much rather do a deal
that nets assets intended to get them back into contention 2-3
yrs down the road.

Rinuven
12-29-2007, 12:38 PM
To those posters who preach patience after losses, what is it that you can see coming out of the current situation that merits it?

In other words, what good do you see coming from this group or what positive development do you forecast down the road that might result in us ever gettng out of the mediocrity or worse cycle?

Before the season began you had us 6th in the east, 2nd in division, with wins over Dallas, Utah, etc? Really? I sure didn't, but I also didn't share the view of most "analysts".

30 games in I expected to see a team a little thin in depth at the guard positions and superstar talent to be playing inconsistent basketball. Fortunately, the good thus far has been better than advertised. I don't think it's overachieving nor do I think we've seen the best stretch of play out of this team.

Again, am I opposed to a trade? Never, if it's going to make us better. But a midseason trade will do nothing for consistency we want to see, and trading players like JO and Tins for lesser talent (which is all I think you can get) makes no sense either.

Turn the question around, what are you really going to gain by shipping JO and Tins out the door?

I feel much better with them than without them. I don't see how THEY are the problems when you look at a lack of depth at PG and someone that is a more reliable threat at 2. Diener doing it in mop time and Rush only when he's hot every once in awhile isn't what I have in mind. Do we have other commodities to trade to get that without moving JO and Tins? What will it cost? That's all beyond me.

D-BONE
12-29-2007, 12:41 PM
I'll vote in favor of patience if only because a better trade might
likely be had as the season wears on. As we get into late-Jan/early-
Feb and towards the 45-50 game mark, teams will either be looking
for the piece or pieces to put them over the top or they'll be Lottery
bound.

I may be in the minority. But I see no sense in making a deal that's
aimed at improving the Pacers 'this' year. I'd much rather do a deal
that nets assets intended to get them back into contention 2-3
yrs down the road.

I can definitely understand this. I guess the original language does make it sound immediate. Waiting until closer to the deadline is no big deal. To me, that's still in the general present time frame as far as I'm concerned.

D-BONE
12-29-2007, 12:53 PM
Before the season began you had us 6th in the east, 2nd in division, with wins over Dallas, Utah, etc? Really? I sure didn't, but I also didn't share the view of most "analysts".

30 games in I expected to see a team a little thin in depth at the guard positions and superstar talent to be playing inconsistent basketball. Fortunately, the good thus far has been better than advertised. I don't think it's overachieving nor do I think we've seen the best stretch of play out of this team.

Again, am I opposed to a trade? Never, if it's going to make us better. But a midseason trade will do nothing for consistency we want to see, and trading players like JO and Tins for lesser talent (which is all I think you can get) makes no sense either.


Turn the question around, what are you really going to gain by shipping JO and Tins out the door?

I feel much better with them than without them. I don't see how THEY are the problems when you look at a lack of depth at PG and someone that is a more reliable threat at 2. Diener doing it in mop time and Rush only when he's hot every once in awhile isn't what I have in mind. Do we have other commodities to trade to get that without moving JO and Tins? What will it cost? That's all beyond me.

Certainly you have reasonable points here, especially about our current standing as opposed to preseason expectations. Unlike you, I am not confident this team can play much better or maintain its position in the EC the rest of the way.

Let's say we do manage to hold down 6. What does that really say? Back to the playoffs, an early exit, low draft pick, and still with same personnel wondering how we can improve the team from mediocre.

I can totally get with what RB says about waiting until closer to the deadline, but what I really agree with is what he and Bulldog say about making a move with an eye toward putting us back in contention in 2-3 years. I think that's the reality of the team we have.

JO and JT have played well this year, but I don't think they are part of the plan that will make us a contending team. Unless you can somehow move other guys for a serious star or two. They are complimentary pieces at best. While our other guys probably are, too, they don't have near the mileage and the history here of unmet expectations.

Rinuven
12-29-2007, 01:19 PM
Certainly you have reasonable points here, especially about our current standing as opposed to preseason expectations. Unlike you, I am not confident this team can play much better or maintain its position in the EC the rest of the way.

Let's say we do manage to hold down 6. What does that really say? Back to the playoffs, an early exit, low draft pick, and still with same personnel wondering how we can improve the team from mediocre.

I can totally get with what RB says about waiting until closer to the deadline, but what I really agree with is what he and Bulldog say about making a move with an eye toward putting us back in contention in 2-3 years. I think that's the reality of the team we have.

JO and JT have played well this year, but I don't think they are part of the plan that will make us a contending team. Unless you can somehow move other guys for a serious star or two. They are complimentary pieces at best. While our other guys probably are, too, they don't have near the mileage and the history here of unmet expectations.

I don't know what the exact formula is to get us back to contention in 2-3 years. But for me, as a fan, the playoff exits have hurt less than not making them at all. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on post season experience, but I feel getting there is more beneficial than not. Unless you are absolutely tanking, the odds aren't in your favor of getting a potential franchise player.

I would rather us keep our main talent, ride them (if possible) into the playoffs, get guys experience, and take the summer to evaluate our needs, then make another midseason trade, miss the playoffs and enter the summer (once again) not certain about what sort of team you really have. If at that point we see it's not going to work, then work to move whoever you need. I'd rather see that then make a knee jerk move now because we may or may not be overachieving. When we've looked good, we've looked really good. Is that because the stars just happened to line up that night?

Anthem
12-29-2007, 01:30 PM
Exercise? Oh man. Be glad the Grammar Nazi is on vacation.

JayRedd
12-29-2007, 01:35 PM
And now is the time

Ummm...the time was like 12 months ago.

NuffSaid
12-29-2007, 02:21 PM
To those posters who preach patience after losses, what is it that you can see coming out of the current situation that merits it?

In other words, what good do you see coming from this group or what positive development do you forecast down the road that might result in us ever gettng out of the mediocrity or worse cycle?
1) Defending the Pick-N-Roll/high screens better. Guards need to be more aggressive and break through the PnR, and they need get out of the habit of doubling the ball handler on high screens. Just rotate defensively whether you create the mismatch or not! Emphasis needs to be on putting a body on a man at all times unless you're working half-court traps and you happen to get the ball handler near half-court with the shot clock under 15.

2) Establish a set rotation even if it means a vet or two will have to come off the bench because he works best with the 2nd Unit.

3) Figure out who you are as a "team": a) uptempo; b) a mixture of uptempo/half-court; c) something else. Whatever it is, this team needs and identity and that identity comes with deciding which way the team is going to play.

Bball
12-29-2007, 02:41 PM
You can talk about trades until you're blue in the face but until someone can find a team that wants your demons you're wasting your breath.

Quit making sense!

Of course the first step in making a trade as the OP suggested is for management to dial back the value expected in return and look at the salary situation more than anything.... at least in JO's case.... We'll win as many games with JO as without JO. With Tinsley, you have a different scenario because Good Jamaal makes a difference, but his evil twin (Bad Jamaal) is just as likely to appear at any time and hurt you. So you don't necessarily have to get the same talent level back, but you do need a consistent PG. A consistent PG is better than a wildly inconsistent one. And one without a frequent injury history also would be nice.

But who trades a solid PG for Tinsley? And I guess that is one of Grace's points. And JO is so overpaid that the list of takers is probably underwhelming.

-Bball

McKeyFan
12-29-2007, 03:12 PM
Exercise? Oh man. Be glad the Grammar Nazi is on vacation.

Good eye. I should have spelled it right, considering today's headline:

"Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=504969&in_page_id=1811&Satan=Santa

P.S. And maybe that's the problem: we've been exercising, rather than exorcising the little gremlins.

indygeezer
12-29-2007, 04:00 PM
P.S. And maybe that's the problem: we've been exercising, rather than exorcising the little gremlins.

Well they've certainly gotten enough PT.

mcampbellarch
12-29-2007, 04:34 PM
When is JO's contract up? Or more to the point, when would TPTB have to make a genuinely decision whether to refresh the core. I am a JO fan, until the 4th second that he is holding the ball in the post. I do not believe that it is intentional but I keep getting the vibe that when he is in the rest of the group slows and down and starts watching - which I suppose you have to in case he decides to pass out of the post - but that could be anywhere from 2 to 10 seconds.

CableKC
12-29-2007, 05:29 PM
I was thinking of this yesterday night and it dawned on me that maybe Bird's goal in the offseason was not to build a Championshop team but simply return to the Playoffs. If you look at this team and consider all the limiations that we now see that we have ( inability to keep a healthy lineup, huge immoveable long-term contracts that limit our abiilty to make any trade and inconsistent productvitity from our lineup ), the best that we can realistically hope for ( as many have noted ) is a mediocre .500 team that will likely be 1st round fodder in the Playoffs.

If the goal of the FO has been to make money for the Organization ( as opposed to winning a Championship at most...if not "at all"...costs....which does have a "higher reward" but at a much higher cost ) by making Pacer ball more exciting to watch, then ( it's arguable ) that he's slowly accomplishing that. The change to a high-octane offense in the LEastern Conference may mean that returning to the Playoffs is a good possiblity which may ( in the end ) attract some fans back to the Fieldhouse. But if we look at the limitations that this team has.....assuming that we keep the current "status quo".....advancing to the 2nd round or even the Finals appears to be improbable unless we get extremely lucky.

Maybe Bird's goal was to simply "aim low and hope that he hit's something high". In other words....return to the 1st round of the Playoffs....anything beyond that is "icing on the cake".

Doddage
12-29-2007, 06:31 PM
Can we please find a team that has any desire at all for Trophy?

RamBo_Lamar
12-29-2007, 06:50 PM
I've been convinced for some time that JO and Tins will both be Pacers
until the ends of their contracts. As time passes, beleive the odds of this
being the case are increasing.

We've made our bed and are now sleeping in it.

Having taken the stance they will both be with us for quite a while to come,
am trying to "like it" rather than "lump it".

The rest of the crew needs to step it up!


:boomer:

Young
12-29-2007, 09:04 PM
We had a championship level team not to long ago. Player by player, those players from that team have gone except Jermaine, Jamaal, and Jeff. When you have such a good team you can't just replace a bunch of the players and expect the same results a couple years later.

We do not have a top team. We should be in the playoffs. We have gone through a rough spot here but the goal is to be playing well and clicking come March, and April. Lets see what this group can do in the playoffs, assuming we make it. Then, the playoffs, that is where you can really judge a team. That is what will tell you where changes will need to be made. Not after

A trade will not automatically erase this team's demons. Only winning will.

Tinsley is not my ideal point guard, but he seems to have changed for the better this year and I think that Jim likes him. He is a hard player to move right now.

Jermaine is a guy I have wanted gone. Simply put, he isn't a franchise player and he is injury prone. But trading your best player is much easier said than done. Especially when he is owed 20 million a year that is a lot of salary to match.

Just sit back, relax, and accept the fact that we are a medicore team and will be for at least this season.

McKeyFan
12-29-2007, 09:49 PM
Tonight's game was our opportunity once again to enjoy Jermaine O'Neal in the crunch, since Tins was injured.

JO was awful. Kerplunk.

Next game, we'll get to watch JT throw up some crazy stuff at the end of the game.

wintermute
12-29-2007, 11:24 PM
You can talk about trades until you're blue in the face but until someone can find a team that wants your demons you're wasting your breath.

if this were posted last week, i would have said that tinsley has played well enough to attract some trade interest. cleveland and miami in particular come to mind. but now it looks like he's broken down again, no thanks to the heavy load of minutes :mad:

j.o. - for what's it worth i think we could still get something of value for him. not bynum level, but something anyway.

and yes, i'm in favor of trading our vets. the main argument against rebuilding was that the fans would not like it, but honestly do you think the apathy can get worse than what it is now? might as well take your rebuilding lumps now when the fanbase doesn't care either way.

OnlyPacersLeft
12-30-2007, 12:21 AM
Tins didn't even play tonight and you guys want him traded. LOL
JO is horrible at the end of games. I knew down 1 we would throw it to him and he'd toss up some crazy jump shot and clank it. Then they'd hit some 3 or w/e...i was just waiting for it. Uhg 15-16...not good

indygeezer
12-30-2007, 08:28 AM
Tins didn't even play tonight and you guys want him traded. LOL
JO is horrible at the end of games. I knew down 1 we would throw it to him and he'd toss up some crazy jump shot and clank it. Then they'd hit some 3 or w/e...i was just waiting for it. Uhg 15-16...not good

So if he HAD played it would be ok to want him gone? :confused:

That means it's ok to decide based upon one game, that just doesn't seem right.

Just jerkin ya around OPL


mostly

OnlyPacersLeft
12-31-2007, 10:47 AM
lol...I'm a tinsley supporter...I think without him we are very very bad...
but hey when you want someone gone bad enough you reap the benefits once they are gone. Remember how bad you guys wanted ron and jack gone? well we were a top tier team with them. Now we are a mediocre bottom feeder...feels great!

naptownmenace
12-31-2007, 11:56 AM
I've never been a let's get worse so that one day maybe we'll be better type of guy. And if you know anything about the Pacers brass they'll never do this type of trade either.

The problem is that sure we could try and make a trade and take back expiring contracts so that we suck this season and get a good draft pick next season. But are you willing to live with not being a good team and/or missing the playoffs for the next 4 seasons in a row? That's the risk you take when you rebuild and that's what usually happens.

I don't look forward to that at all. We're in decent shape right now with our schedule being as tough as it's been so far. The Pacers should wait until after the season ends and then address changes then.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2007, 12:22 PM
Tonight's game was our opportunity once again to enjoy Jermaine O'Neal in the crunch, since Tins was injured.

JO was awful. Kerplunk.

Next game, we'll get to watch JT throw up some crazy stuff at the end of the game.
And how much did Dunleavy get to play? And why was that per the coach's explanation?

DOH! The defense took a hit with the trade, JOB has outright said so on Mike and no one in their right mind sees Troy as a great defender. Isn't it odd that JO had 5 assists, leading the team, and was far from the only player to come up short down the stretch.


Look, I thought I was the guy who got to be the most cynical. I'm the resident Carlisle supporter and one of the few that valued Jackson's game. Yet somehow I'm finding myself on the other side having to say "it's not that bad" from time to time?

I'm concerned with this roster, always was, but I can also appreciate that at this point they are better than expected. I don't feel that they've overplayed at all other than Dun's 3pt shooting. It's not like the bad defensive players haven't been bad, it's not like Tins doesn't turn it over, miss tons of shots and play rough defense. Granger still raw, Williams too.

I'll give you Hulk keeping his cool as the other surprise to go with Dun's long ball. But everything else is close to "they are who we thought they are", and with that they have still hung around .500. They had 3 tough games and lost them. It happens.


And on top of all this you have the other point people make: just how in the F do you make any deal that helps this situation? It's not like they are passing up great chances to improve the current or future situation.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2007, 12:33 PM
and yes, i'm in favor of trading our vets. the main argument against rebuilding was that the fans would not like it, but honestly do you think the apathy can get worse than what it is now? might as well take your rebuilding lumps now when the fanbase doesn't care either way.
Actually I do think it could get worse. I'm on the fence with this, I agree with you a bit but with no quality options out of it toward a rebuild I think the massive losing could send the fanbase to 3K nights and then OK City.

Alpolloloco
01-02-2008, 09:32 PM
This team needs a clean break.

From the brawl.

From police incidents and embarrassing behavior.

From mediocrity.

From continually injury prone key players.

From years of having no go-to player at the end of games.

From chest-pumping egos that make the team concept slightly murky.


Can we just package JO and JT in a trade and get it over with already? Now is the time: they are both playing well. Neither has received a terminal injury yet (and both could at ANY time, we all suspect). Neither are 30 yet.

We won't get full value, but we'll get something. And we'll get the clean break we desparately need from the past.

It feels like we've lanced the boil but left a little poison. It will grow back.

I know many will flame and rage over this post, but I surely hope I don't have to say I told you so when one or both of these guys gets seriously injured. Or we have to watch another ten games down the stretch and in the playoffs where either JO or JT takes over the offense and succeeds 20 percent of the time, just enough to convince themselves and their homies that they ought to continue. For several more years.

I'm officially done with JO after tonight's awful game against Memphis. Let's get a new backcourt ... NOW!

Naptown_Seth
01-02-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm officially done with JO after tonight's awful game against Memphis. Let's get a new backcourt ... NOW!
I'll just swing by Home Depot after work tomorrow. I hope they can break a JO, it's the smallest bill I've got. Anybody get an Xmas gift card for the NBA store?

Kofi
01-03-2008, 01:07 AM
I'd do it. I'd also go all-out and look to move Dunleavy, Quis, and (although probably impossible) Murphy as well. We could be far under the cap with a couple of good moves, especially if Foster opts out and goes else where at the end of the year.

Let's go for cap space, young talent, and draft picks. I'd rather start at the bottom and build a talented team for the next decade then toil in overpaid mediocrity as we are now. We've already got some decent pieces to work with (Granger, Shawne, Ike, our 1st) now let's bring in come expiring contracts, draft picks, and young talent.

JayRedd
01-03-2008, 10:31 AM
I think the massive losing could send the fanbase to 3K Nights and then OK City.

If those are the names of strip clubs frequented by Jamaal, count me in.

McKeyFan
01-03-2008, 12:24 PM
If those are the names of strip clubs frequented by Jamaal, count me in.

The first one sounds like an all-white club.

able
01-03-2008, 12:32 PM
I'm officially done with JO after tonight's awful game against Memphis. Let's get a new backcourt ... NOW!

That's odd, I thought that was the case like forever or so, seeing as well over 60% of your last 100 posts are either nasty comments about JO or cries for trading him.

I'm afraid you let the non-love for saras get under your skin

JayRedd
01-03-2008, 12:34 PM
The first one sounds like an all-white club.

I was thinking a harem-style "Arabian Nights" ambiance with a year 3K futuristic vibe thrown in. Ya know, lots of tassels, throw pillows and hookas, but also robots and dancers on hoverboards. Either way, I'm still down.

able
01-03-2008, 12:35 PM
Oh and btw; I agree with us getting rid of JO and JT as soon as possible, that way we can be assured of being in the lottery, with the best chance for a #1 and we can finally use those curtains again we still have in storage from MSG, gotta save on the cost!

It would also improve my sleep as I would not have to watch anymore how Diener/Owens & Co would run havoc with the records of this franchise.

/sarcasm

face it, without those two we lose every game by at least a 40 point margin.

Hicks
01-03-2008, 01:06 PM
Absolutely we lose almost all of our games. But can anyone honestly say they expect those two to be here to take us anywhere worth while? I think we're just spinning our wheels with both of them.

QuickRelease
01-03-2008, 01:48 PM
Oh and btw; I agree with us getting rid of JO and JT as soon as possible, that way we can be assured of being in the lottery, with the best chance for a #1 and we can finally use those curtains again we still have in storage from MSG, gotta save on the cost!

It would also improve my sleep as I would not have to watch anymore how Diener/Owens & Co would run havoc with the records of this franchise.

/sarcasm

face it, without those two we lose every game by at least a 40 point margin.

With our fortunes, we'd get the 6th pick, and picks 1-5 would go something like this: Beasley, Rose, Mayo, Gordon, DeAndre Jordan...the Pacers are on the clock. We'd then proceed to take Roy Hibbert, who is my favorite for the Luther Wright award.

Bball
01-03-2008, 01:56 PM
But can anyone honestly say they expect those two to be here to take us anywhere worth while? I think we're just spinning our wheels with both of them.

Ring the bell! We have a winner!

And the fact of the matter is, not only am I not convinced JO makes any difference one way or the other, I'm actually of the belief his presence hurts the team more than it helps.

As for Tinsley, it's not that he's the ultimate PG for this team, we just don't really have a backup. OTOH, I'd like to see our backups work with JO on the court because I firmly believe JO's presence actually does hurt us in the backcourt/wings.

But in any case... those 2 guys can't be in our long term planning any longer regardless of what their contracts might say.

Let's just rebuild properly.... No rushed trades just to appease a desire not to miss the playoffs. Actually... just forget about the playoffs entirely. We're beyond them doing anything but hurting the team at this point.

-Bball

Mourning
01-03-2008, 03:34 PM
I wouldn't mind Jamaal staying actually. He does have a significant impact on the team. We need to get a better backup for him though.

JO IMO though will have to be traded in the summer at the latest for more then one reason. Resigning our young players, getting into healthier salary levels, turning the franchise in a new strategic direction which would by doing this be an undenieable fact, hoping to get atleast one nice asset for the "new" team. We are going to suck with or without him. So, we suck a little more for awhile with him in the end the result will be the same, except that we shoot ourselves in the foot by getting a lower firstrounder then we would get otherwise.

Like I wrote a lot of times before, I actually like Jermaine a lot aswell as what he has done for us, but he has been compensated more then well for that and what we need he doesn't seem to offer, alas. All the best to him, I hope we can ship him to a good team where he can go far in the play-offs (and where I would actually enjoy watching him too).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
01-03-2008, 03:42 PM
I just don't see any team wanting Tinsley and trying to trade Tinsley and JO might be impossible. I honestly believe the only thing we'll get back is horrible contracts.

JayRedd
01-03-2008, 04:02 PM
And the fact of the matter is, not only am I not convinced JO makes any difference one way or the other, I'm actually of the belief his presence hurts the team more than it helps.

Shocking.

Bball
01-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Shocking.

And true! ...I do believe that. :D

-Bball

Bball
01-03-2008, 04:09 PM
I just don't see any team wanting Tinsley and trying to trade Tinsley and JO might be impossible. I honestly believe the only thing we'll get back is horrible contracts.

...Which is kinda what we have with them...

-Bball