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View Full Version : The trade almost one year later



Unclebuck
12-28-2007, 09:06 AM
I have some time this morning, so I am starting this thread a few weeks earlier than the one year anniversary.

I thought it might be interesting to take a new look at the trade involving the Warriors and the Pacers. Let me say upfront that I will not debate the reasons why the trade had to happen or even if it was a good trade or bad trade. I only plan to look at the 5 players still on the teams they were traded to. (so no talk of Saras, Powell, or Mcloud)

Whenever I look at a trade, I always start with the best player that was traded. And as much as I might hate to admit it, the best of the 5 players for his current team is clearly Stephen Jackson . He is clearly the second most important player on a team that is currently 17-12. And then when you consider he was out the first handful of games and look at their record since he's been back Jackson has a real chance of being an allstar this season. The trade has saved his career. And I have no problem with that , I swish him well except when he plays the Pacers.

OK, now lets move to the second best player in that trade. Mike Dunleavy. He won't make the allstar team and he isn't the most important player on the Pacers team. He isn't the second most important player either. I call him the guy that makes things work. He the type of player (except in the Knicks game) where you don't really notice him that much when he's on the floor. It is when he goes to the bench that you realize his true value. So many times this season I'll be watching a game and the team is struggling, going through one of their bad runs within a game - it seems with rare exceptions that bad stretches occur when Mike is on the bench.

I clearly think Mike is more valuable than Granger at this time - he's most important to our success. It is strange because there will be times during the game, when I'll think, we need Rush's shooting ability, Granger's defense, Williams athleticism, Daniels all around play and there will be times when I almost forget about Mike - but he's the only one of those guys that makes other players better. He makes the team better just by being on the floor. Mike is perfect in this offensive system, and if the pacers do have an allstar player, Mike should be the only who makes it.


After those two guys there is a dropoff to Al Harrington . It seems a little strange that Nelson is the 3rd head coach he's had that thinks he's best as a 6th man. I realize he is starting right now and might very well continue to start the rest of the season, but it just seems all of his coaches (except in Atlanta) think he is better coming off the bench. When the trade was made, I considered Al the best player in the trade, now I think he's clearly the 3rd best player. At this point in his career I think he is what he is. A poor rebounder, a streaker scorer, a decent defender - a nice player to have around, but nothing more.


Let's move to Troy Murphy . Yes he can shoot, yes he has good hands, he's not a horrible passer, he can rebound (although he doesn't very much) he IMO is just an average player - not that there is anything wrong with that (well except for his salary) His team defense is really not bad, his one-on-one defense is often bad beyond discription. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, he is slow and small for a power forward - that is a bad combination.


Ike Diogu anyone else notice how many people are starting to call him Ike Diogo, it seems like Quinn started it, now Slick calls him that and even O'Brien has called him that. Ike is not the type of post player that you can just throw him the ball and have him go to work. Against bigger players he has trouble getting his shot off. He needs to get more face-up shots though and post ups after ball reversals and misdirection plays. I like Ike, whenever he plays big minutes he scores and rebounds.

Who has this trade helped more the Pacers or Warriors. At first glance it has helped the Warriors more - no doubt. Does that mean I wish the trade had never taken place, absolutely not - the trade had to be made and the trade also helped the Pacers - it wasn't going to work with Al and Jax here.

Infinite MAN_force
12-28-2007, 09:28 AM
I feel like it was a pretty even trade now. Dunleavy for Jackson straight up I feel is an even trade in terms of what both teams needed, I think this worked out well for both teams. Both players needed a new enviornment and it has allowed them both to succeed.

Then you have Murphy and Diogu for Harrington and junk. Mcleod was an expiring contract for two fairly worthless players, and than after that the trade all depends on Diogu. If diogu pans out or nets us a nice player in a trade I would say we broke even. Murphy is a decent player who is vastly overpaid. I like him on this team if you cut his salary in half (and he comes off the bench). The trade was really harrington for diogu, but someone had to make the salaries work, and a bad contract was the price for a young player with potential. At least Murphy isn't totally worthless, he has his games where he makes a positive impact, sometimes...

However, I think Dunleavy for Jackson straight up might have been the best option... our contract situation sucks. But we will see... If Diogu ends up being a key piece in a trade for us, it may turn out to have been worthwile.

Phildog
12-28-2007, 09:32 AM
I guess I've got to argue against SJack here. He's putting up similar percentages as far as shooting goes as he did here, he just get's more shots in that system (as I'm sure he would've under our system now had he still been here). Dunleavy is shooting nearly 50%. If Dun Dun were more aggressive, I have to think he'd be close to an All-Star.

Harrington is a dud as far as reaching his ceiling. He has reached his cap and hopefully he'll learn how to do more "little" things to make his team better instead of worrying about his scoring average. His time for that is over.

Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.

Ike still needs some PT. Until that day, the Warriors got more of what they needed than the P's did. If JO was some how gone, then we might be able to see what Ike is capable of. I don't know if he'll ever be able to reach that crazy potential of being a solid starter, but seems to be suited towards coming off the bench and schooling the opposing teams 2nd string.

I'm still glad it all happened in order to get rid of the attitude crew we had in at that time.

PS. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop with Jack. May not happen this year........but tick tick tick....

Isaac
12-28-2007, 10:16 AM
Murph is Croshere without the fan favortism.

Murphy is a much better all around scorer then Cro and a better rebounder too. His defense is worse, but I think the things he does bring on the offensive side make him a far more valuable player to us then Cro was.

At the same time, I really feel like Ike plays better and better the longer he's in a game without foul trouble. He's very active and a couple made shots and a nice rebound when he first gets in really gets him in the flow of the game nicely. If Ike comes in and doesn't do anything quickly he seems to get yanked, and I think JOB needs to do a better job making him a big part of what we do. In 2 years he could very well be the best player in this deal.

When you look at how this trade benifits us though, I don't think you can look at what Jack and Al are doing with Golden State, you have to look at who they were as players for us, and what has happened to our team since we moved them. I think even though we had that major dropoff last season after the deal, we avoided a major chemisty issue and possibly some irreparable damage to JO and Al's friendship. They were doing a worse and worse job co-existing with each other last season, and Al had pretty much given up on being aggressive with the ball and was just looking to shoot the 3. Jack we pretty much had to move for obvious reasons. For those 2 must move parts, we took bad some big salaries but we got 3 players who contribute for us now much more then the 2 parts we gave away last season, great deal.

BoomBaby33
12-28-2007, 10:45 AM
First of all, great thread idea / conversation (a year into the trade) for evaluation.

I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.

Since then, Al has proven to be what he is, an average, streaky player who doesn't like to get physical getting rebounds or playing tough defense. He'd rather camp on the 3 point line. And that wasn't what we needed him to do.

DunDun is a great team player, and an average one on one player. But I'd rather have a great team oriented player in the offense we are running now. In RC's offense, DunDun was basically useless. Props to LB for finding the right coach in Obie (or so it seems right now anyway) to get the best out of the players that we have. I have always believed that you have to coach to the players strengths.

Troy is an OK player, but just simply way overpaid. Ala, Croshere. If Troy's salary was cut in half, he would be a great value player. But as I have said before, I think he is a false positive player (with his so called double double capabilities), because his one on one defense is atrocious.

Jack. What can you say. He is a time bomb. Pretty good shooter, but bad shot selection at the same time. Arguing with the refs, when his player is on the other end scoring just absolutely kills team defense and chemistry. I do not miss that one little bit. His bad outweighs his good IMO. Good riddance.

Ike. I wish we could have convinced Mullin to give us Ellis or even Barnes instead. Just think how our team would have looked with one of those 2. Oh well, thats water under the bridge now. Ike can be good, but he needs minutes. How many will he get under JO is the big question. We need to put him on a stretching machine and give him about 4 more inches (keep your jokes to yourselves). If he was 7 foot instead of 6'8", he could be dominate (ala Dwight or even the emerging Bynum). Other than that, I really like his work ethic and hustle. At this point, I think Hulk has caught up to him in value though (just my opinion).

All that said ... it was an equal trade. It has made both teams better in the end. However, there is a fuse burning and its in Oakland now.

Go Pacers!!!

Peck
12-28-2007, 11:16 AM
If you wanna play the "what if" game take this into consideration.

How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

Let's face it, no matter who was here under what circumstance. As long as you had the combination of Jermaine O'Neal and Rick Carlisle together the style of play was going to be the style of play. I contend that nobody benefits other than O'Neal from that that play.

So now go back and add Jackson, Saras & Al to the new system under O'Brien and try and figure if they would have done as well, better or worse than the group we have now.

Hard to say really.

But to the trade itself I'll just say this. No one player in this deal is significantly better than the other at this time so from that standpoint the Pacers have 3 of 4 left playing while the Warriors have 2 of 4. So I guess we came out a little ahead there.

But IMO, the entire thing was a wash from a talent standpoint.

So having said that, you had chemistry issues on the team prior to the trade and as of now you don't have any that are public anyway.

This was a trade that IMO, helped both teams, yet didn't solve either of their problems.

But I will say this, prior to the trade the team was dead in the water with zero upward mobility at all. You can make the same argument now, but I just get the feeling that we have more ability to either move up or down with the current group.

slyder
12-28-2007, 11:32 AM
[QUOTE=Peck;636476]
How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

and, for the most part, it has been successful in that. and i prefer the present line-up (and coach) over what we had before.

Isaac
12-28-2007, 11:58 AM
I think this was one of the best addition by subtraction trades that has ever happened for the Pacers. Jack absolutely HAD to go, and it was at Al's expense. The other players were throw ins to make it work obviously. It was unfortunate losing Al, because of the "double loss" with losing the first round pick to get him back from the Hawks in the first place.

I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.

Trader Joe
12-28-2007, 01:08 PM
The Warriors got better you'd have to say. I'd say we stayed about the same at least right now.

Speed
12-28-2007, 01:36 PM
The coach change thing is interesting. I think Bird may have had it right in his day about a 4 year shelf life, unless your Jerry Sloan I guess.

I don't think there is a coach on the planet that was going to coach that team over the long haul, to many "me" guys, imho.

I guess before the trade I felt like the ceiling was based on chemistry and selfishness. This made it a bad product AND completely unlikeable.

Now I guess I feel the ceiling is based on talent or lack thereof. Still frustrating, but not quite the jagged pill.

I remember Boyle saying once, you have to have talent to win at this level. Seems simple and obvious, but its true.

I guess overall, I see this a step in the right direction, but I don't see this group nearly good enough to compete at the highest level. I'm not down on them, but with each passing game I just wonder is Tinsley taking over the 4th quarter the foundation of what this team is about. Is Murphy shooting the ball as soon as he touches it what I'm going to watch all the time.

Looking back on the trade, I echo whats been said, it had to be done. I like the guys they got back infinitely better. I just see it as a step, not the destination.

Lastly, listening to all the Reggie games the last couple of days on WIBC or 1070 or whatever it is,has really made me realize how far off this group is, imho.

Kstat
12-28-2007, 02:09 PM
Obie single-handedly turned this deal from laughable to respectable. Dunleavy has been excellent so far.

Naptown_Seth
12-28-2007, 03:23 PM
1) I agree with Kstat. Maybe it wasn't JOB per se, but something has Mike dropping the 3 better than ever. That has moved him to even with Jackson perhaps in my book. I was saying it all off-season, that a key to some surprise improvement would be Mike fixing his outside shot.

One area that we still are hurting on this comparison is emotion. Fans might have hated Jackson, but that dude brings emotion to the table and gets teams fired up and interested. As likable as Dun is, this just isn't his strong suit.

2) Al was a soft defender/rebounder that shot the 3. Troy is too. But at this point I have to still give Al the advantage. Whatever Al does poorly, he still does it better than Troy as far as I can tell.


3) Contracts - still a hard loss for Indy


4) Ike - was the wild card then, still is the wild card now. The results with him on the court haven't been all that impressive. He still has size issues, passing issues, and mistake issues. He still gets great post position and has a real knack for scoring the ball.

To me if Hulk was healthy he'd clearly be ahead of Ike. That makes Ike somewhat redundant. Shawne adds to that too.

-- Bottom line, right now I don't think Ike has been enough to make up for the contract hit and the slight edge with Al-Troy or the fire/emotion edge Jack has over Mike.

I mean compare where the team was last year in W-L vs now, and that included some injury issues and Jackson starting the first month with by far his worst 3pt effort, which can be assumed to be related to the hit and run.



I want to add that I do agree with Isaac regarding Al being the jump off point for this deal. Pacers had shown interest in Ike, GS had chased Al. Al was coming off a big pout session and a benching by Rick. This included the PUBLIC comment of Al going "Ron Artest" (his words).

Let's not get revisionist here. The fans may have hated Jackson, but the coach clearly loved him. How can I say that? Um, huge hug following their matchup post-trade when Jack went off, as well as continued playing time for Jack despite his volatile reactions to Rick when he was unhappy about something (usually being pulled from a game).

There were no signs of the frostiness that apparently ran between Tins and Rick. Does anyone see anything close to those 2 relationships being similar (Rick-Tins vs Rick-Jack)?

Naptown_Seth
12-28-2007, 03:31 PM
well, this particular "what-if" is a moot point, since the motivation behind the trade was to rid the team of the accumulated tension and bad press that had piled up since the brawl...

and, for the most part, it has been successful in that.8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.


"Did we say we'd watch if you got rid of Jackson? No, we didn't mean that, we meant that if you got Garnett and Reggie came out of retirement and the team went 17-3 to start the year that THEN we'd show up. But you guys wouldn't listen so I guess it's Colts time for us. Let's us know when you show the fans you care again."

Clearly by now it should be obvious that I'm extremely bitter about local fan support for any of the sports teams. My feelings about the local press coverage isn't much better, and not even so much the sports department but rather the general news that feeds on some ramped up Pacers drama far more than it tries to bask in the reason we like having local teams.

Unforgiven (paraphrased)
"Well I guess they had it coming."

To me that's the press, they've gone into "had it coming" when it comes to Pacers bad luck. It's long since stopped being us against the world, which was the attitude back in the early 90's. Of course the fans didn't show up back then either, but at least the press liked the team.

And the response to that quote is of course: "We all got it coming kid." That's why it should be us against the world, because honestly the Pacers players haven't been devils, haven't been dealing drugs, DUI'd, caught stealing or any of the other issues that plague the other "in trouble with the law" teams. They don't have it coming anymore than the rest of us as far as I can tell.

Since86
12-28-2007, 04:08 PM
8 Seconds, Shawne Williams, Cloud 9, horrible attendance...

For the most part it's been a massive failure. I'm not even against the players in those situations, I'm pretty anti-fan on the matter. My point is just that to me TPTB tried to fix something that the fans were saying was the reason they didn't like the team, and that after doing what they asked the fans double-crossed them.


Call me when a player that we got in the trade gets into trouble, then you may have a point.

Jax had been involved in more than one incident, so by getting rid of him and by getting players who stay out of trouble they did what they intended to do.

Now if you want to argue that Tinsley should be gone too, that's different, but view the trade as the trade.

As far as attendance, the actual players were half of the problem. Winning was the rest.

ajbry
12-28-2007, 04:44 PM
At this point, it worked out well for both sides, precisely what a trade is meant to do especially when both teams are giving up pieces that were no longer in ideal situations.

Dunleavy's playing the best ball of his career and is the perfect complimentary, system-type guy. Nothing wrong with that, although it's hard to count on him to step up and carry the team on his back. Dude does a lot of small things that makes the offense run.

Harrington was ALWAYS overrated. I never had any idea why people felt he was the best player in the deal, the only edge he possibly could've had over Jack was scoring-wise and Jack's career PPG is actually higher. Relies on open looks created from Baron and Jack and doesn't do much else. Can score but defense is mediocre, rebounding still hasn't improved. Chemistry-wise, Al's fantastic. He's real tight with both Jack and Baron and that gives him a lot of value on that team from a personality standpoint.

Murphy is essentially the same as Al, but certainly less prolific. Better rebounder but even more feeble defensively and relies too much on the open perimeter shot created by the better players. Overpaid. Neither team exactly grabbed a valuable veteran big man in this deal, to say the least.

Diogu, as has been said a million times, is the wild card. Still too small a sample size to really figure out if he sways the balance. I doubt he becomes a force down low, but I wouldn't discount his ability to be a go-to post scorer off the bench averaging about 10-12 PPG on a relatively decent percentage.

Roaming Gnome
12-28-2007, 05:01 PM
As far as attendance, the actual players were half of the problem. Winning was the rest.

Nah, I'm still going to say that winning is the whole problem and the players were the excuse to stay away.

Hell, when the Jail Blazers were within' mins of going to the NBA Finals....I didn't see the Rose Garden any less empty then what it was when they sold out for years and years. Seemed like the Blazers became a local embarrasment when the wins were replaced with losses.

Isaac
12-28-2007, 05:23 PM
Another reason I want to see a lot more Ike is that he can really get to the foul line. With our defense fouling as often as it does we need a guy like Ike that can help balance it out.

Trader Joe
12-28-2007, 06:34 PM
Nah, I'm still going to say that winning is the whole problem and the players were the excuse to stay away.

Hell, when the Jail Blazers were within' mins of going to the NBA Finals....I didn't see the Rose Garden any less empty then what it was when they sold out for years and years. Seemed like the Blazers became a local embarrasment when the wins were replaced with losses.

QFT.

andreialta
12-28-2007, 06:54 PM
to quote Steve Smith from the Atlanta game while he was broadcasting

"I give Ike A for effort but C's and D's for production"

lol

tdubb03
12-28-2007, 08:41 PM
The salary cap problems it has presented us with aside, I'm much, much happier with the trade now than I was 9 months ago or so. I was in the "Larry's an idiot camp" back then. I still don't think he's savvy enough to handle the business aspects as well as Donnie, but there's no questioning his talent evaluations (other than that European guy).

Jax's perimeter defense is what I miss the most though. By far. I understand after what happened the team had to be gutted. Doesn't change the fact that as a player I love Jackson though. Sure his shot selection was questionable, but whose isn't in today's basketball?

Naptown_Seth
12-29-2007, 06:05 AM
Call me when a player that we got in the trade gets into trouble, then you may have a point.
No, I have a point right now.

You make the trade to solve those problems. That trade didn't solve those problems. Therefore it failed.

I have a flat front tire. I buy a new tire and put it on the back. This new tire is not flat, and in fact it's perfectly good. Did this process fix my problem? Has it been mostly successful? Not at all, I still have the flat front tire problem. Replacing the rear tire was at best a waste of time. Had it caused new problems it would have been a monster failure, both failing to fix the original problem and creating new problems too.

The trade did not end or even slow down the bad press, and in fact it appears to have accelerated the attendance issues thanks to the fold-up job to end last season.

Peck
12-29-2007, 06:39 AM
No, I have a point right now.

You make the trade to solve those problems. That trade didn't solve those problems. Therefore it failed.

I have a flat front tire. I buy a new tire and put it on the back. This new tire is not flat, and in fact it's perfectly good. Did this process fix my problem? Has it been mostly successful? Not at all, I still have the flat front tire problem. Replacing the rear tire was at best a waste of time. Had it caused new problems it would have been a monster failure, both failing to fix the original problem and creating new problems too.

The trade did not end or even slow down the bad press, and in fact it appears to have accelerated the attendance issues thanks to the fold-up job to end last season.


Yes, your analogy works but so does this.

I go to a car accident. I have a victim who is having arterial bleeding from an open laceration to the left forarm. However this same victim also has a tension pneumothorax of his left lung (look it up) and has massive internal bleeding from a ruptured spleen.

Now let's say I stop the bleeding from the laceration with direct pressure and an ice pack and I even go so far as to decompress his pneumothorax with a 14 g angio.

Have I saved this victims life if I stop there?

Obviously the answer is no, he is still bleeding from the spleen and will die without surgical intervention.

However by prioritizing his injurys and my treatments thereof have I effectively given him a better chance to live? Absolutely.

The flaw with using your tire analogy is the fact that you assume that the front tire being flat was the only problem. However upon further inspection you have found that your entire drive shaft is broken and oh yea your brakes are down to the metal.

Now changing your front tire may seem like the thing to do and in fact you do have to do that, however there are several other things that have to occur as well.

What I am trying to say and have been trying to tell you for a long while now is that you keep having this misguided notion that the fans were only upset with Steven Jackson and wanted him gone.

Yes, no doubt they wanted him gone, however just because he was gone does not mean they were going to just flock back to the field house.

Management spent about 3 years of complete and total idiocy in the P.R. with that team and it will take at least that long to clean it up.

Many of the fairweather fans (yes we can call them that because we here on the digest are hardcore) won't return until the Pacers make a deep playoff run.

Does that mean that the Pacers still didn't have to move some of the players? No.

The biggest problem that this team had locally was the fact that it had more than one knucklehead at a time.

Any team and town can survive one knucklehead. A team with a very very very strong management and player leadership might be able to handle two.

However in our case we had one certifiable loon in Artest, a hot head in Jackson, a moper in Jamaal, a coach who didn't seem to have any control and worst of all a management that seemed to be an enabler.

I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.

Alabama-Redneck
12-29-2007, 08:15 AM
I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.

How about the Knicks ?

:cool:

JayRedd
12-29-2007, 01:22 PM
If Dun Dun were more aggressive, I have to think he'd be close to an All-Star.

And if a cat was a dog it would bark.


I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.

Disagree with this. I still believe it started with us looking for a taker for Jack.


"Did we say we'd watch if you got rid of Jackson? No, we didn't mean that, we meant that if you got Garnett and Reggie came out of retirement and the team went 17-3 to start the year that THEN we'd show up.

Why do you keep insisting this? Nobody ever said that. No one ever promised to show up if Stephen Jackson was traded. Sure they didn't like him, but it wasn't anywhere close to the ultimatum situation you continually bring up when you complain about attendance. A better generalization of fan sentiment would be something like "I hate these players. And they suck. Fix it." Well, the team still isn't markedly better enough for casual teams to notice and instead of disliking all the players (now it's only some), they just simply don't know who these players are. So instead of the old situation, we're now at a point with fans where it's something similar to: "Who are these guys. They sorta suck. Fix it."


Clearly by now it should be obvious that I'm extremely bitter about local fan support for any of the sports teams.

Clearly. And we're starting to add extremely irrational.


Yes, your analogy works but so does this.

I go to a car accident. I have a victim who is having arterial bleeding from an open laceration to the left forarm. However this same victim also has a tension pneumothorax of his left lung (look it up) and has massive internal bleeding from a ruptured spleen.

Now let's say I stop the bleeding from the laceration with direct pressure and an ice pack and I even go so far as to decompress his pneumothorax with a 14 g angio.

Have I saved this victims life if I stop there?

Obviously the answer is no, he is still bleeding from the spleen and will die without surgical intervention.

However by prioritizing his injurys and my treatments thereof have I effectively given him a better chance to live? Absolutely.

The flaw with using your tire analogy is the fact that you assume that the front tire being flat was the only problem. However upon further inspection you have found that your entire drive shaft is broken and oh yea your brakes are down to the metal.

Now changing your front tire may seem like the thing to do and in fact you do have to do that, however there are several other things that have to occur as well.

What I am trying to say and have been trying to tell you for a long while now is that you keep having this misguided notion that the fans were only upset with Steven Jackson and wanted him gone.

Yes, no doubt they wanted him gone, however just because he was gone does not mean they were going to just flock back to the field house.

Management spent about 3 years of complete and total idiocy in the P.R. with that team and it will take at least that long to clean it up.

Many of the fairweather fans (yes we can call them that because we here on the digest are hardcore) won't return until the Pacers make a deep playoff run.

Does that mean that the Pacers still didn't have to move some of the players? No.

The biggest problem that this team had locally was the fact that it had more than one knucklehead at a time.

Any team and town can survive one knucklehead. A team with a very very very strong management and player leadership might be able to handle two.

However in our case we had one certifiable loon in Artest, a hot head in Jackson, a moper in Jamaal, a coach who didn't seem to have any control and worst of all a management that seemed to be an enabler.

I don't know many city's that are going to stand up and cheer for that unless they are perinial title winners.

But since Peck put my argument much better than I ever could, I'll only add this: Winner, winner...Chicken dinner.

BoomBaby33
12-29-2007, 06:13 PM
I disagree with this. I think this trade was based around the Pacers calling the Warriors to gauge their interest in Al, since they had been the other team in the running before he came here. I think it started with Al for Ike and both players had contracts/personalities that needed to go and those got swapped as well.

Obviously all speculation, but I think Larry and Donnie decided Al needed to go which just happened to open the door for Jack to be moved.

So your telling me that you think the Pacers were ready to give up on Al 30 games into the season after forfeiting a #1 pick to get him back. No way. If they were convinced he wouldn't work in RC's offense with Jack and JO, then RC's head would have rolled first.

Jack was the main reason the trade went down, and it worked with the Warriors because they still wanted Al after losing out on him in the off season, and that was reason the trade worked with GS. Al and Ike were afterthoughts for Jack for DunDun.

Tom White
12-29-2007, 07:59 PM
2) Al was a soft defender/rebounder that shot the 3. Troy is too. But at this point I have to still give Al the advantage. Whatever Al does poorly, he still does it better than Troy as far as I can tell.

I still think Troy is a better rebounder, but athleticism goes to Al.



3) Contracts - still a hard loss for Indy

Ain't it the truth.



4) Ike - was the wild card then, still is the wild card now. The results with him on the court haven't been all that impressive. He still has size issues, passing issues, and mistake issues. He still gets great post position and has a real knack for scoring the ball.

You know, it may not be fair to Ike, but I get the feeling that he is going to end his career as a guy that everyone liked, but never really attained the level everyone hoped for. Some of it may be related to his size. Too big for a 3, too short for a 4 or 5.



I want to add that I do agree with Isaac regarding Al being the jump off point for this deal.

That would mean TPTB wanted Al gone more than Jackson. I just can't see that. I think TPTB took advantage of the Warriors' interest in Al, in order to move Jackson. In other words, if you want Al, you take Jackson.

Of course the Warriors replied, if you want A, you've got to take B.


Let's not get revisionist here. The fans may have hated Jackson, but the coach clearly loved him. How can I say that? Um, huge hug following their matchup post-trade when Jack went off, as well as continued playing time for Jack despite his volatile reactions to Rick when he was unhappy about something (usually being pulled from a game).

There were no signs of the frostiness that apparently ran between Tins and Rick. Does anyone see anything close to those 2 relationships being similar (Rick-Tins vs Rick-Jack)?

All I can say about that part is - Tinsley is still here, and he and JOB seem to have a mutual respect and trust. Carlisle and Jackson are both gone, and I REALLY think both moves needed to happen in the team's best interests.

Tom White
12-29-2007, 08:02 PM
If you wanna play the "what if" game take this into consideration.

How would it have been had we not made the trade, but instead fired Carlisle and hired O'Brien at mid season last year.

Sort of a throw out the baby and keep the bathwater, huh?

I guess if the Pacers had done that, they would still have dirty bathwater.

Kaufman
12-29-2007, 09:47 PM
As the discussion of Ike Diogu has come up, and questions regarding his "black hole" reputation and what not, I have a question --- does anyone know what Ike's +/- throughout the year is?

I realize he's only been available for a limited number of games but I find it interesting that he had a -11 in the +/- tonight.... disappointing!

wintermute
12-29-2007, 10:56 PM
i started out thinking that the trade was pretty even, but one year later it seems to me that the warriors are the clear winner on this one.

i agree with ub, jackson has been far and away the best player in the deal. diogu is the wildcard who could still turn things around, but honestly his basketball iq seems disturbingly low for a third year player who's had three years of college ball. and this coming from a diogu fan.

PaceBalls
12-30-2007, 05:49 AM
From a purely basketball perspective, (not including off court behavior, fan frustration and all that BS, which is obviously important to any entertainment business, they don't call it Pacers Sports and Entertainment for nothing, eh?) we would be a much better team with Sjax instead of the 3 ex-warriors we have now.

Maybe Ike will turn out into something good? I'm not holding my breath. If the other teams 2nd string frontcourt is under 6'8" and no wingspan, yeah, Ike is the man... alas, that is about 1 or 2 teams in the NBA.

Murphy is ok, but so was Al (who we would still have), in fact, I'd rather have Al.

MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games, but Sjax is a better player, on both sides of the ball IMHO. Even if we say SJax and MDJr is a wash, we are still behind on the trade a year later.

I think with not doing the trade we would be up 5-10 games at the end of the season. I would have loved to have seen how those guys would have played with Obie. It woulda been fun.

I, too, also feel that winning will bring folks to the games regardless of any bad off court image. Not that having a good image is important, but winning is the best advertisement. You can bet your ***, if this team was on a roll like say Portland is, winning 10+ games in a row, people would start noticing, and all the other stuff would be long forgotten.

D-BONE
12-30-2007, 08:57 AM
From a purely basketball perspective, (not including off court behavior, fan frustration and all that BS, which is obviously important to any entertainment business, they don't call it Pacers Sports and Entertainment for nothing, eh?) we would be a much better team with Sjax instead of the 3 ex-warriors we have now.

Maybe Ike will turn out into something good? I'm not holding my breath. If the other teams 2nd string frontcourt is under 6'8" and no wingspan, yeah, Ike is the man... alas, that is about 1 or 2 teams in the NBA.

Murphy is ok, but so was Al (who we would still have), in fact, I'd rather have Al.

MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games, but Sjax is a better player, on both sides of the ball IMHO. Even if we say SJax and MDJr is a wash, we are still behind on the trade a year later.

I think with not doing the trade we would be up 5-10 games at the end of the season. I would have loved to have seen how those guys would have played with Obie. It woulda been fun.

I, too, also feel that winning will bring folks to the games regardless of any bad off court image. Not that having a good image is important, but winning is the best advertisement. You can bet your ***, if this team was on a roll like say Portland is, winning 10+ games in a row, people would start noticing, and all the other stuff would be long forgotten.

Great post. Summarizes exactly how I feel about the trade. As has been pointed out, Bird not casting off Carlisle prior to last year was the worst decision of all. Even more unbelievable since we know that LB had been advocating for the move to an up-tempo style since a year ago this offseason. I know hindsight is 20-20 and all, but it still merits stating.

I say, LB (and MAYBE DW), you got us into this mess, now get us out of it. Find a reasonable trade that will continue to remake the team, but actually improve it. No more lateral or worse moves please.

Kaufman
12-30-2007, 10:00 AM
And maybe, maybe just maybe, if Jackson was still here he would have been with Tinsley the other night after hours and he'd have taken a shot back at the people shooting Tinsley and they'd both be dead.

Jackson was bad for the team. And most coaches can't control him.

The antics he gets himself into take a toll on the team he is on. He is a ticking time bomb, just like Ron Artest was. Its time for us to now move on.

Let him be gone.

And I'm not a hater. I liked his game. He was fun to watch (when he was hitting his shots).

fleetwood019
12-30-2007, 11:11 AM
MDJr is playing really well so far this year... or he was untill the last few games,

I really don't know how you could say his last few games have been bad, well all except his TO. In the last three games he has done this.

<TABLE class="playerStatTable lastGames" borderColor=#0000 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=title><TD class=date>Date</TD><TD class=opponent>Opponent</TD><TD class=result>Result</TD><TD>MIN</TD><TD>FGM-A</TD><TD>3PM-A</TD><TD>FTM-A</TD><TD>OFF</TD><TD>DEF</TD><TD>REB</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>STL</TD><TD>BLK</TD><TD>TO</TD><TD>PF</TD><TD>PTS</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=dt>Dec 29</TD><TD class=op>vs. DET (http://www.nba.com/pistons/) <SUP></SUP></TD><TD class=rs>L 92 - 98 (http://www.nba.com/games/20071229/DETIND/boxscore.html)</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>5 - 8</TD><TD>2 - 2</TD><TD>6 - 6</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>18</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=dt>Dec 28</TD><TD class=op>@ DET (http://www.nba.com/pistons/) <SUP></SUP></TD><TD class=rs>L 101 - 114 (http://www.nba.com/games/20071228/INDDET/boxscore.html)</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>4 - 4</TD><TD>1 - 1</TD><TD>0 - 0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>9</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=dt>Dec 26</TD><TD class=op>@ ATL (http://www.nba.com/hawks/) <SUP></SUP></TD><TD class=rs>L 95 - 107 (http://www.nba.com/games/20071226/INDATL/boxscore.html)</TD><TD>31</TD><TD>3 - 6</TD><TD>1 - 2</TD><TD>4 - 6</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>11</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So, he is still shooting over 50%, getting around 3 ast and about 3 - 4 boards a game in that strech. The most shots he has taken was last nights game aginst Det, and he put up 18 pts.

esabyrn333
12-30-2007, 05:51 PM
Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.

BlueNGold
12-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.

It was at that moment of the brawl, I knew the Pacers had started a long downhill slide. It was literally like witnessing the death of the franchise. Some of us could tell at that moment in time that we would be where we are today.

This is perhaps the main reason why character, not just basketball IQ/ability counts to many Pacer fans.

Trader Joe
12-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Personally Mike Dunleavy Jr is slowly becoming my favorite Pacer on the team. It seems Troy is slowly improving on D. Still extremly overpaid and I would like to see him moved for a Solid Defender at the 2.


I can't stand SJax2 I truely believe he was the flame that lite Ron's fuse and the downfall of this team. Imagine where this team could have been if he would have rushed into the crowd and grabbed Ron and pulled him out instead of coming over Ron's shoulder and laying into another fan. Reggie lost his shot at a championship at that moment. We where on pace for another 60 win season and that broke Indy's heart. Reggie deserved better.

Imagine if Ron had never gone in there in the first place....

Sure Jack played his role in the brawl and his actions should not be condoned, but Ron Artest is a grown man and he is the one responsible for rushing into the crowd. No one else.

Peck
12-30-2007, 06:37 PM
The downward spiral of this franchise began the first time Donnie Walsh looked the other way when Ron was being Ron and that was long long long before the brawl.

Of course some of us beleive that the downward spiral of this team began when they dismantled the 00 team. Yes, yes I know the usual suspects are going to come on here and give me thier two cents worth on that subject but just save your typing fingers. I will go to my grave believeing that that team would have went right back to the finals and nothing you are going to say will change my mind.

Hicks
12-30-2007, 06:41 PM
The downward spiral of this franchise began the first time Donnie Walsh looked the other way when Ron was being Ron and that was long long long before the brawl.

Of course some of us beleive that the downward spiral of this team began when they dismantled the 00 team. Yes, yes I know the usual suspects are going to come on here and give me thier two cents worth on that subject but just save your typing fingers. I will go to my grave believeing that that team would have went right back to the finals and nothing you are going to say will change my mind.

Is your whole idea stemming from we could & should have paid Jackson what he wanted, kept Dale, and that would have convinced Rik to stick around?

esabyrn333
12-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Imagine if Ron had never gone in there in the first place....

Sure Jack played his role in the brawl and his actions should not be condoned, but Ron Artest is a grown man and he is the one responsible for rushing into the crowd. No one else.


He rushed into the crowd and Jax rushed into the crowd. One grabed a guy by the throat and one started throwing hay makers. Both lost its credibility with the majority of the fans at that point. Jax was a ring leader and followed that up with letting everyone know that he was from the street and if his boy was in a fight we was going to throw down and that he was not changing for anyone. This is the Indiana Pacers we are better than that you go from
This
PG Mark Jackson
SG Reggie Miller
SF Derek Mckey
PF Dale Davis
C Rik Smitts

To

PG Jamaal Tinsley
SG Steven Jackson
SF Ron Artest
PF Jermaine O'neal
C Jeff Foster

Wonder why Foster is a fan favorite. I like the way Tinsley has been playing this year and I hope the near death experince opened his eyes I loved Rons game but the dude was flat crazy. Can't stand Jax2. Jermaine had some monster shoes to fill. I like him over all. Jeff everyone loves. I can't stand his game have been praying to see him traded for a long time. I would love to see him and Murphy transformed into one player. I just would love to see a team like the 90's Pacers be built from the ground up starting now.

Peck
12-30-2007, 08:00 PM
Is your whole idea stemming from we could & should have paid Jackson what he wanted, kept Dale, and that would have convinced Rik to stick around?

Short answer, yes.

You know I had a huge long reply typed up here and was going to go over point by point everything I thought was important, but then I thought "why bother".

Anthem, Acadian, etc., etc. will be on here any moment to tell me how the team had peaked and blah, blah, blah.

They are entitled to their opinions and so am I.

I'll just leave it at this, I liked that 2000 team 1,000,000,000 % better than any moment of any team we have had since.

Kraft
12-30-2007, 08:10 PM
I'll just leave it at this, I liked that 2000 team 1,000,000,000 % better than any moment of any team we have had since.

Even the 6 1/2-man show post-brawl? That was at least fun.

BoomBaby33
12-30-2007, 10:00 PM
It was at that moment of the brawl, I knew the Pacers had started a long downhill slide. It was literally like witnessing the death of the franchise. Some of us could tell at that moment in time that we would be where we are today.

This is perhaps the main reason why character, not just basketball IQ/ability counts to many Pacer fans.

Hate to rehash this thing with the brawl, but this post echoes my sentiments as I sat in complete and utter awe on my couch watching the brawl unfold in Auburn Hills that night.

Also, I would like to second what esabyrn333 said about Jack's "influence" on Ron. Ron was never that volatile before Jack came, and hasn't been that volatile since he left the Pacers (and Jack). Sure, he shouldn't have gone into the stands as a professional ball player (I'm not condoning that in any way about Psycho), but any warm blooded man would have reacted that way in an instantaneous reactive moment. Its very unfortunate.

Just my opinion.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2007, 06:51 PM
All I can say about that part is - Tinsley is still here, and he and JOB seem to have a mutual respect and trust. Carlisle and Jackson are both gone, and I REALLY think both moves needed to happen in the team's best interests.
What I was saying though is that I doubt Rick was in Bird's ear saying "move this guy". On the other hand Al was openly criticizing Rick and Rick benched him after a halftime about 2 weeks before the trade. If either player wasn't working in the Rick system it was Al, not Jackson.

I think fans that disliked Jackson just assumed it was about him, but I honestly think if you remove personal views on Jackson and only look at the circumstances between the coach and the roster that it looks a lot more like it was time for Al to go.

I feel strongly that had Jackson long since been moved that at that point Al still would have been dealt. "I guess I'm gonna have to go Ron Artest", not the words to win over the coach or GM at that point.


Ron was never that volatile before Jack came
Holy freaking crap. Riley, HD camera, his own photos, endless flagrants...that was 2 years before Jackson showed up.


I'm actually on Peck's side about keeping the 2K team together. Their demise was grandly overestimated. Rik would have stayed if Jax stayed, and he would have if the offer was better. I think Dale could have worked out too. And frankly even if he didn't, putting JO in his spot doesn't exactly hurt things if Jax and Rik are still here.

I think the Rose/Best PG thing hurt the most, primarily Best. Oh, and there was that little error in overpaying Croshere instead. Good thing that never flared up again (cough...Brad...cough).

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2007, 10:13 PM
Relevent from the +/- thread
Season
Dun +53
Troy -25
Ike -50

Last 10
Dun 0
Troy +42
Ike -15

Ike is -11.66 per48 in that last 10, his number would be worse with more minutes.

The Ike factor is flopping in this deal so far, but now Troy is making a push toward respectable instead. Go figure. Credit where it's due, Troy's doing great.

BoomBaby33
01-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Holy freaking crap. Riley, HD camera, his own photos, endless flagrants...that was 2 years before Jackson showed up.




OK. Not AS volatile. But Jack certainly lit a bigger fuse in Psycho. And, who was right behind Ron egging for some more action in the stands? Jack was a punk, still is, and always will be, good riddance. Ron just needed some Prozac. It was like adding fuel (Jack) to the fire (Ron).

The Riley incident was lame and not worthy of discussion. The dude with the camera admittedly was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Ron didn't take it out on the camera guy, he took it out on the camera. Flagrants are a part of the game Seth. DunDun gets them - don't try to say that made a difference. Ron had them, so did Jack.

Also, I don't ever recall Ron shooting a gun in public. I think thats a bit more excessive then defending yourself with a drunk Piston fan.

I'm not defending Ron's actions, I'm just saying the ramifications of his actions were exacerbated with Jack around.

ajbry
01-01-2008, 12:00 PM
I've never recalled Stephen Jackson or Mike Dunleavy committing a flagrant foul or playing recklessly in the same manner that Ron did.

Let's put it this way: Ron has had a checkered past his whole damn life and away from the Pacers, he's still been a very inconsistent character. Jack, on the other hand, went 28 years before the brawl and one incident afterwords. His post-Pacers (and pre-Pacers) tenure has been flawless off the court.

speakout4
01-01-2008, 12:16 PM
I still think Troy is a better rebounder, but athleticism goes to Al.
Both these guys rebound when the mood strikes them and they rebound well when playing against softer players just like them. Seriously they play lazy.

Hicks
01-01-2008, 12:24 PM
I've never recalled Stephen Jackson or Mike Dunleavy committing a flagrant foul or playing recklessly in the same manner that Ron did.

Let's put it this way: Ron has had a checkered past his whole damn life and away from the Pacers, he's still been a very inconsistent character. Jack, on the other hand, went 28 years before the brawl and one incident afterwords. His post-Pacers (and pre-Pacers) tenure has been flawless off the court.

In general I agree with you re: Ron >Psycho> Jackson, but I have ask in response to the bold: Oh really? Tell me again, why does Jackson leave red clothing in his locker? Why were there custom-made red Pacer jerseys with his name and number floating around?

ajbry
01-01-2008, 12:57 PM
In general I agree with you re: Ron >Psycho> Jackson, but I have ask in response to the bold: Oh really? Tell me again, why does Jackson leave red clothing in his locker? Why were there custom-made red Pacer jerseys with his name and number floating around?

I don't see how growing up surrounded by Bloods makes him a criminal. Dude didn't have a choice. He's stated it pretty simply...

"I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.

"I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."

PaceBalls
01-02-2008, 03:41 PM
I don't see how growing up surrounded by Bloods makes him a criminal. Dude didn't have a choice. He's stated it pretty simply...

"I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.

"I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."


What if everyone wasn't in red or blue? But pink! or fushia! or maybe emerald green.
This gangster crap is really stupid. You would think a grown man with millions of dollars would not still be stuck in this juvinile mindstate of glorified gansters reppin colors..
As much as I like Sjax's game, this kinda stuff makes me glad he is gone. The last thing this world needs is more idiots "representing" the bloods, or the crypts, or MS13 or whatever other evil and violent gangs are out there, on a national stage, especially for the Pacers.

Since86
01-02-2008, 04:05 PM
I don't see how growing up surrounded by Bloods makes him a criminal. Dude didn't have a choice. He's stated it pretty simply...

"I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.

"I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."

Didn't have a choice? You ALWAYS have a choice.

With that said, I'll play the game. What about now? Is he still so scared of them that he feels like he still needs to represent them, or needs them for protection?

When is it time for him to grow up? Gangs don't help society, they break them down. There's a reason why when gangs move in, crime rates go way up. Does it automatically mean your a criminal? No, not 100% of the time, but 99% of it does. Don't act like the Bloods are a bunch of school boys handing out in the local park.

They're funded by illegal activity, they push drugs/guns, they steal, they rob and murder people. You don't go through that lifestyle and come out squeaky clean.

By still showing his colors he's supporting the lifestyle, that's why they feel like they don't have a choice, because the adults kids idolize don't show them they have a choice. They glamorize gang life.

So what he started a school, good for him. How many kids does he help compare to how many kids he hinder? He should want them to get out of the streets, create a functioning life in society. Not be apart of the scum, which is exactly what gangs are.

Unclebuck
01-16-2008, 09:40 AM
I thought I would bump this thread seeing that the trade was made one year ago tomorrow and there is this article from Indystar.com.

andreialta
01-16-2008, 10:46 AM
and how the game is today! goodjob uncle buck! bump it up!

I love Dunleavy over Jax!
Im dissapointed for Murph
and Ike

I cant even find Mcleoud no more, not in D-league, he is in europe probably.

idioteque
01-16-2008, 10:51 AM
In a few sentences:

Dunleavy has become a pleasant surprise in my mind. I'd take him over Jackson.

I was never a fan of Harrington, but Ike and Murph have been a disappointment. More or less a wash for me.

Saranus was insignificant when he was here so I was happy to dump him.

I wish we still had McLeod now. He was a decent backup PG.

Unclebuck
01-16-2008, 11:04 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080116/SPORTS04/801160442/1088/SPORTS04&template=printart

1 year later
Pacers, Warriors reverse courses since trade
Teams play tonight on the eve of the anniversary of their 8-player swap.
By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com
January 16, 2008


Both needed a change of scenery. Neither was embraced by hometown fans. Their biggest crime? One wasn't Reggie Miller. The other wasn't Larry Bird.

Almost a year after they changed cities as key components of an eight-player trade, Golden State's Stephen Jackson and Indiana's Mike Dunleavy are having career seasons.

Look a little further, though, and only one can say he has helped lead his team to a winning record and the playoffs.

Jackson returns to Conseco Fieldhouse tonight knowing he might be booed -- just as Dunleavy was Sunday in Oakland -- but smiling because his team has gotten the better end of the deal that also sent Al Harrington and two others to Golden State for Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod.

The outcome has been golden, you might say.

The Warriors are 46-36 since the trade, while the Pacers are 32-51.

The trade spurred the Warriors to the playoffs last season and contributed to the Pacers' missing the postseason for the first time in 10 seasons.

"The Pacers made the decision to cut their losses and they were never going to be in the position where they could get equal value in return," ESPN analyst Bill Walton said. "You basically have to get whatever you can and move on. The Pacers were basically forced to trade Stephen Jackson because of his failures on and off the court."

Jackson's two-plus seasons with the Pacers were stymied by numerous negative incidents, including a 30-game suspension for going into the stands at the Palace of Auburn Hills and a role in a shooting outside an Indianapolis strip club.

They love him out West, however. He played a key part in the Warriors making the playoffs for the first time since 1994.
Teammates nicknamed him "Captain Jack."

He missed the first seven games of this season -- the NBA suspended him for his guilty plea in the strip club incident in Indianapolis -- and the Warriors went 1-6.

With "Jack" back, they are 22-10 and he is averaging a career-best 20.6 points to go with 4.7 rebounds and 3.8 assists in nearly 40 minutes a game.

"Nobody could predict Stephen Jackson would have made the type of turnaround that he's made," Walton said. "It would be hard to come up with someone who has hurt himself, hurt his team, more than Stephen Jackson. We're hopeful he can continue this remarkable turnaround. The Warriors rolled the dice and it has worked so far with them."

Jackson hasn't completely eliminated some of the antics that drove fans and Pacers officials crazy. He still occasionally gets caught up in complaining to the officials and not running back on defense.

"He's gotten better at it," Harrington said. "I think some coaches nitpick at guys. If you want to do that, anybody can be a (jerk). With Jack, he has a leash that's a little bit longer and he knows how to bring himself in when he has an episode. He's definitely maturing."

Dunleavy's accomplishments haven't been as noticeable because the Pacers have been inconsistent. The way their season is going, his playoff drought could reach six years.

The Pacers swingman is finally playing like the player fans in Oakland wanted to see during his five years there. Dunleavy is averaging a team-best 17.3 points and shooting 49.6 percent, including 42.8 percent on 3-pointers, all career highs.

"To me, it's exactly what I envisioned out of Mike," Warriors vice president Chris Mullin said. "He has size, passing ability, shooting ability. He's a worker. He's a great teammate and he's smart. There's nothing he doesn't really bring. Now he's doing it on a consistent basis and he's in a situation where they rely on him and they're playing through him."

Murphy and Diogu haven't had the same kind of impact as Dunleavy.

Diogu has fallen so far down in the rotation that he has been inactive the past two games. Murphy, who averaged a double-double in three of his first five seasons, is averaging 10.2 points and 7.0 rebounds while shooting a career-low 40.9 percent this season.

"We have guys that play well at times, but not as consistent as much as we would like," Pacers president Larry Bird said. "We do like the players we got in the trade. They'll get consistent as the season goes on."



Harrison practicing alone

Center David Harrison, who has served two games of his five-game suspension for violating the league's anti-drug program, is working out with the coaching staff alone. Harrison is allowed to practice with the team during the suspension, but O'Brien doesn't want him taking repetitions from other players.

andreialta
01-16-2008, 01:23 PM
"To me, it's exactly what I envisioned out of Mike," Warriors vice president Chris Mullin said. "He has size, passing ability, shooting ability. He's a worker. He's a great teammate and he's smart. There's nothing he doesn't really bring. Now he's doing it on a consistent basis and he's in a situation where they rely on him and they're playing through him."

it really says a lot about mike.

Shade
01-16-2008, 01:54 PM
Both needed a change of scenery. Neither was embraced by hometown fans. Their biggest crime? One wasn't Reggie Miller. The other wasn't Larry Bird.

I stopped reading right there. It's obvious that Wells has no clue what he's talking about. I don't think any of us expected Jack to be Reggie. But we did expect him to not be a headcase with sporadic effort on the court.