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View Full Version : I don't mean to start another O'Brien thread but from today's Philly news.



Peck
12-20-2007, 04:54 AM
I am bolding the quotes by Jermaine O'Neal.

If what he say's is true, and from what I have seen so far on the court I think it is, then this may be the start of something special.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20071220_Sixers_-_OBrien_knew_early_he_wouldnt_stay.html

Sixers - O'Brien knew early he wouldn't stay
By PHIL JASNER
Philadelphia Daily News

jasnerp@phillynews.com

INDIANAPOLIS - It wasn't easy making the 76ers 10 games better than they were the previous season, taking a team that had been in the lottery to the playoffs and getting fired with two guaranteed seasons remaining, but Jim O'Brien found a way to do it.
There's an old saying: In Philadelphia, you're going to get it, you just don't know when. The fascinating part of O'Brien's experience was that it took only the first month of 2004-05 for O'Brien to know exactly what was coming, not to mention when.

"I just had a pretty good feeling of the lay of the land as early as December," O'Brien said before coaching the Indiana Pacers to victory over the Sixers last night.

The Sixers essentially paid him $8 million to leave, giving him the balance of the guaranteed portion of a 4-year contract. Did someone in management or ownership tell him something during that first month that told him he would be one and done?

"It's observation," he said. "Really, absolutely nothing [else]. Nobody ever said anything. It was just observation of people."

At the same time, O'Brien admittedly made no effort to take his feelings to anyone above him in the organization.

"I don't think there was anything that I was doing that I wouldn't continue to do," he said. "I was trying to build a team. I thought we were building it the way I was hired to build it, change the culture."

In a statement released yesterday via Comcast-Spectacor publicist Ike Richman, chairman Ed Snider said: "I feel this is in the past. It's really water under the bridge. We remain focused on the future of this franchise and don't want to dwell on what may or may not have happened."

O'Brien has no regrets.

"We had a team that was out of the playoffs [go] into the playoffs," he said. "I signed a huge contract, so financially it was a windfall [after getting fired], from the standpoint of being able to get a sabattical. I just had the best 2 years of my entire life. I don't regret 1 second of it . . .

"I went there with the idea - I go to every job with the idea - that I'm going to be there forever. I thought I was brought in to change the culture.

"Prior to getting there, there was a lot of nonsense going on in the paper. One of the things I said in the interview process was, I would stop that nonsense from going on, from the standpoint of public stuff, players [seen] in a negative media. It just didn't work out, I guess."

Let the record show, the Pacers love him. Let the record also show O'Brien said, "I think we really have better pieces here than any other place [I've been]."

"I like him a lot," star big man Jermaine O'Neal said, "because he reminds me of a coach when you're coming through rec league and high school, where they really care more about the person than they do the actual basketball player.

"We've had some real emotional meetings at this part of the year. As a player, I say I'd go to war for this guy any night. I think all the guys in the locker room feel that way, also."

O'Brien's style, which includes lots of freedom at the offensive end, is a major change for the holdover Pacers, who were accustomed to the slower pace and more controlling approach of Rick Carlisle. Viewed as stubborn, aloof and difficult with the Sixers, O'Brien is considered by people around the Pacers to be open, friendly, approachable and cooperative.

"He tells us the offensive end is ours, the defensive end is his," O'Neal said. "We have to play the way he wants us to play [defensively]."

O'Neal said he had no concern for whatever the problems might have been in Philadelphia.

"The group of players means everything to a coach," O'Neal said. "The acceptance from the team is something that goes under the radar in sports in general. A lot of teams won't accept the coaching style, the philosophy, demeanor. We accepted the change right away."
As for what went wrong in Philadelphia . . .

"Let's put it this way - I didn't fire myself," O'Brien said. "I would say that's a pretty safe bet. Management or people above me decided the culture that I was trying to build was not necessarily the one that they wanted to see built."

granger33
12-20-2007, 05:09 AM
We finally have Team Chemistry

Erik
12-20-2007, 05:24 AM
"He tells us the offensive end is ours, the defensive end is his," O'Neal said. "We have to play the way he wants us to play [defensively]."
Brilliant. Simple, but brilliant.

aero
12-20-2007, 08:23 AM
Yeah you can tell this team is starting to Gel. When we Gel well, and the team gets at 100% the NBA better watch out...thats all im sayin

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 08:51 AM
As the crowds get smaller and smaller (this had to be the smallest Conseco crowd I've ever seen, preseason included (OK, maybe the snow game of 3 years agao against the Wizards)
But the point is I can hear more and more of what O'Brien is saying to the guys and he's pretty tough. In the first quarter as they were coming to the bench for the first timeout, O'Brien yelled in a very strern voice at Owens, "get the ball into the middle please" I know that sounds so polite and everything, but believe me he was upset.

He also showed visible signs of disgust whenever the pacers missed layups last night

BillS
12-20-2007, 09:24 AM
As the crowds get smaller and smaller (this had to be the smallest Conseco crowd I've ever seen, preseason included (OK, maybe the snow game of 3 years agao against the Wizards)
But the point is I can hear more and more of what O'Brien is saying to the guys and he's pretty tough. In the first quarter as they were coming to the bench for the first timeout, O'Brien yelled in a very strern voice at Owens, "get the ball into the middle please" I know that sounds so polite and everything, but believe me he was upset.

He also showed visible signs of disgust whenever the pacers missed layups last night

I keep asking myself why more people aren't starting to fall in love with this team. OK, they aren't individually talented, and maybe Indiana has caught Superstar Syndrome from David Stern like the rest of the NBA.

O'Brien has this team playing the Right Way. They work extremely hard even when they are inconsistent. I've never seen them give up or even blame things on circumstances beyond their control.

To be honest, for all that people have accused the Indy media of being kiss-ups to the Pacers, this year they've seemed to go the opposite way. We need the media to help build things up, and that just isn't going to happen until the end of the Colts' season.

If we build some momentum going into the All-Star Break, and the media cooperates, we might see a different attendance profile once the NFL playoffs are over.

Will Galen
12-20-2007, 09:29 AM
He also showed visible signs of disgust whenever the pacers missed layups last night

He must have been really disgusted at Danny then. I was, and he's my favorite player. I don't cuss or swear, but Danny had me wanting to.

Evan_The_Dude
12-20-2007, 09:33 AM
Nice to see that culture change has worked out for Philly so far. Oh wait...

McKeyFan
12-20-2007, 10:03 AM
So, any ideas on what they didn't like about JOB in Philly?

Is it as simple as: Iverson is a punk, and we would rather not work hard--I mean, it's just PRACTICE and all.

???

Doug
12-20-2007, 10:14 AM
I keep asking myself why more people aren't starting to fall in love with this team.

O'Brien has this team playing the Right Way. They work extremely hard even when they are inconsistent. I've never seen them give up or even blame things on circumstances beyond their control.

It takes time. People tune out, then it takes while for them to notice things are looking better. Even then, they're skeptical - they've been burned before.

IMO, it will take continued positive momentum, especially going into the playoffs, to start bring the crowds back. The better regular season crowds won't come until next year, at the earliest.

As for me, I really, really like what I'm seeing.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 10:25 AM
If I didn't know the Pacers record the past 3 or 4 seasons and if I just based my opinons on what most people in Indianapolis say about this team and the number of people that are currently attending the games - I would truly believe that the pacers must have been just a horrible team the past few season, I mean 15 win horrible. But they missed the playoffs one season, they had one losing season (35 wins) and yet 10,200 tickets are sold and people act like the Pacers are a joke of the entire sports world.

I simply don't understand why so much hate for the team, these players, the NBA and the whole scene. I really do not understand it.

10,200 tickets sold is really evidence that there is a crises here - I mean that is horrible - that has to be the smallest crowd in the NBA this season - and really it might be the smallest in about 5 seasons - if that number continues that is somehting that will make me believe the team will move out of town. I try not to dwell on it too much (and yes I know the reasons) but if I were the owners, I would be looking to move soon.

Doug
12-20-2007, 10:33 AM
If I didn't know the Pacers record the past 3 or 4 seasons and if I just based my opinons on what most people in Indianapolis say about this team and the number of people that are currently attending the games - I would truly believe that the pacers must have been just a horrible team the past few season, I mean 15 win horrible. But they missed the playoffs one season, they had one losing season (35 wins) and yet 10,200 tickets are sold and people act like the Pacers are a joke of the entire sports world.

I simply don't understand why so much hate for the team, these players, the NBA and the whole scene. I really do not understand it.


But it wasn't just about wins and losses.

The Pacers did their damage with the brawl, then continued with off-court incident after off-court incident. Ron's trade demands, etc.

IMO, the drop in attendance has much, much more to do with that than with the record.

People were (and still are, I guess) absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacer fan.

Trust was broken, and that takes time to earn back.

LoneGranger33
12-20-2007, 10:35 AM
Well, considering earlier reports telling us that JO'B was an emotionless stats machine Bill Belichick clone, I'd say this is very good news!

And, despite not living in Indiana, I absolutely DREAD the prospect of the team moving. That cannot happen! But maybe that low mark was because two of the three worst teams in terms of attendence were playing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance
We are 28th! Only about 40 people more per game than the team below us.

McKeyFan
12-20-2007, 10:41 AM
Well, considering earlier reports telling us that JO'B was an emotionless stats machine Bill Belichick clone, I'd say this is very good news!

It had to help JOB that he followed an emotional corpse.

I like Rick a lot, but passion is not his forte.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 11:08 AM
But it wasn't just about wins and losses.

The Pacers did their damage with the brawl, then continued with off-court incident after off-court incident. Ron's trade demands, etc.

IMO, the drop in attendance has much, much more to do with that than with the record.

People were (and still are, I guess) absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacer fan.

Trust was broken, and that takes time to earn back.

Those are all good points, and I think you are correct. My guess is people don't like the pacers like they used to for the reasons you cite, but they often don't say all of that, they more often will say they don't like them because the team is terrible.

People might be absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacers fan - but I'm embarrassed by the lack of fan support and the overall attitude of the city towards this team, this season, right now. I don't think it is right.

LoneGranger33
12-20-2007, 11:33 AM
People might be absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacers fan - but I'm embarrassed by the lack of fan support and the overall attitude of the city towards this team, this season, right now. I don't think it is right.

Given our team's history, and what we've done to remedy the problems, you'd think the fans would give the Pacers a second chance. I agree with you 100%.

McKeyFan
12-20-2007, 11:39 AM
I think it's overall a good thing.

Bad short term. But some of the mistakes by management were so egregious--such a break of trust, several in a row, over a long period of time--that the only way the fan base could "save" the franchise was by making their point known by voting with their feet.

Yes, it will take time to get back on track. But, early results are showing that the new course will be in line with Indiana standards.

Another option would have been to watch Larry and Walsh get us back to a decent winning record with the same bad principles, rebellious characters, and lack of discipline that the last few years have brought.

I think without the protest of the fans this could have happened. And it would have been unacceptable. And it would never have led, long term, to a successful franchise or a championship.

Thank God for the fans. Thank God it looks like we're headed back on the right road.

odeez
12-20-2007, 11:45 AM
I think JO'B is great. He is everything RC was not. I like to see our coach fired up. He has got this team playing very well and I think if we can get a few more pieces in here we might just compete for a title. Maybe not this year, but soon enough.

As for the Indiana Pacer fans that live in the area and are able to go to the games but don't. I BOOO them. Wake up and see that you have a competitive and fun team to watch. I know there have been off the court problems, but you have to support your team. I live here in Oakland CA. And I go to Warriors games from time to time. The Warriors fan base is way more supportive of the Warriors then the Pacers fans are of Pacers, at least it seems that way. The fans get up and cheer for their team. I watch 95% of the Pacers games, and I swear the fans sit on there hands for most of the time. God bless Indiana, but the fans need to wake up and get off their conservative butts.

Tyrion
12-20-2007, 12:36 PM
Those are all good points, and I think you are correct. My guess is people don't like the pacers like they used to for the reasons you cite, but they often don't say all of that, they more often will say they don't like them because the team is terrible.

People might be absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacers fan - but I'm embarrassed by the lack of fan support and the overall attitude of the city towards this team, this season, right now. I don't think it is right.

I think it's most that, but as far as people coming back the fact that IU, Purdue, and Butler are all worth watching right now probably doesn't help the Pacers. I am a huge Pacer fan, but right now, given the choice, I would much rather watch Butler. BTW, Buck, I know you don't like college basketball, but you should catch a Butler game sometime. They are all available online on HLN. They play beautiful basketball.

Peck
12-20-2007, 12:40 PM
But it wasn't just about wins and losses.

The Pacers did their damage with the brawl, then continued with off-court incident after off-court incident. Ron's trade demands, etc.

IMO, the drop in attendance has much, much more to do with that than with the record.

People were (and still are, I guess) absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacer fan.

Trust was broken, and that takes time to earn back.


At what point in time did you perform a Vulcan mind meld on me?

That is two post in a row in this thread that you have said word for word what I was thinking.

Great minds think alike.

Before long I guess I'll be humming "straight up" buy Puala Abdul. ;) (inside joke for you outsiders)

ABADays
12-20-2007, 12:48 PM
Those are all good points, and I think you are correct. My guess is people don't like the pacers like they used to for the reasons you cite, but they often don't say all of that, they more often will say they don't like them because the team is terrible.

People might be absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacers fan - but I'm embarrassed by the lack of fan support and the overall attitude of the city towards this team, this season, right now. I don't think it is right.

Doug is right UB. This hasn't been a wins and losses issue. People see that we had a legitimate contender until the brawl. That contending would have stood for several years. But player attitudes ripped the heart right out of everything.

This isn't the time of the year to be passing judgement on the crowds. There is a lot going on with the holidays, etc.

One thing is interesting. Even here in Iraq, I wouldn't wear my Pacer gear last season because I was embarrassed by the actions of the team - not the record. As a lifelong fan I can deal with the record. But what it took over a three-year period to destroy what the Pacers stood for might take as long to recover.

Kegboy
12-20-2007, 12:55 PM
Those are all good points, and I think you are correct. My guess is people don't like the pacers like they used to for the reasons you cite, but they often don't say all of that, they more often will say they don't like them because the team is terrible.

People might be absolutely embarrassed to be a Pacers fan - but I'm embarrassed by the lack of fan support and the overall attitude of the city towards this team, this season, right now. I don't think it is right.

A guy I work with was offered a free ticket to the Bulls game last week from a friend of his (great seats that his company owns) and he turned him down, because "I'm not gonna go watch a bunch of thugs. That's all that team is, a bunch of thugs. Dunleavy's the only guy I like at all."

idioteque
12-20-2007, 01:06 PM
A guy I work with was offered a free ticket to the Bulls game last week from a friend of his (great seats that his company owns) and he turned him down, because "I'm not gonna go watch a bunch of thugs. That's all that team is, a bunch of thugs. Dunleavy's the only guy I like at all."

:rolleyes:

I'm not attacking you, Kegboy, but that is a lame excuse from that guy. If you asked him to back up that point with a lot of evidence based on players on our CURRENT team there's not a whole lot he could give you other than Tinsley's misgivings.

The unlikable players were Artest (obviously) and arguably Jackson. I wish people would just get the **** over it and go back to the games. It's not like that guy is perfect either.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 01:19 PM
A guy I work with was offered a free ticket to the Bulls game last week from a friend of his (great seats that his company owns) and he turned him down, because "I'm not gonna go watch a bunch of thugs. That's all that team is, a bunch of thugs. Dunleavy's the only guy I like at all."

I've heard the same thing from a lot of people. I just consider them ignorant because they really have no idea what they are talking about. But I never challange them when I talk to them - because it obvious they aren't up for a discussion about it. The really sad thing is there are often racial overtones. (I don't know your co-worker, so I don't know about him, but whenever the thug comment is made, more often than not it is racial).

Putnam
12-20-2007, 01:24 PM
I've heard the same thing from a lot of people. I just consider them ignorant because they really have no idea what they are talking about. But I never challange them when I talk to them - because it obvious they aren't up for a discussion about it. The really sad thing is there are often racial overtones. (I don't know your co-worker, so I don't know about him, but whenever the thug comment is made, more often than not it is racial).


That's mean-spirited. You have no proof of that statement. Even overlooking the "racial" allegation, you can't judge what criteria people use to decide what they approve of or not.

I don't mean to pick a fight, but it is unreasonable of you to say people are ignorant or "not up to a discussion" because they have decided they can live without the Pacers. Sure, many of the people you are talking about couldn't name this year's line-up. But it is unreasonable to expect them to know. They stopped paying attention months ago for what seemed to them very good reasons, and when they are not paying attention they don't keep up with changes. That is not ignorance on the part of the public.



Suppose we were kids planning to play ball on a Sunday afternoon, and I really wanted to play but you were indifferent to it. Now suppose it starts raining hard just a while before we were going to start, and you think, "Screw it" and go down in your basement and start playing x-box. (Or, given that it's you and me, let's say you start playing "Rock 'em, Sock 'em Robots"). Anyway, I'm sitting there watching out the window and after a while, the rain stops and I'm thinking, "OK, lets play!" So I call you. What would your answer be? You would say, "We can't play. It's raining." I wouldn't call you ignorant or a racist at that point. The burden would be on me to convince you to go upstairs and look out a window and see for yourself that the rain had stopped.



The Indianapolis public have no duty or obligation to spend their money in Conseco Fieldhouse. The burden is entirely on the part of PS&E, to 1) present a product that is attractive to a public that has a lot of options, and b) promote than product so convincingly that people will forget what they "know" and begin to choose a night at Conseco over their other options.

idioteque
12-20-2007, 01:25 PM
That's mean. You have no proof of that statement.

Re-read the last sentence.

McKeyFan
12-20-2007, 02:02 PM
Dunleavy's the only guy I like at all."

Let me provide reasons to explain the response of Kegboy's coworker (not that I agree with him, but some sympathy has to be offered for understanding the casual observer):

Three of our top players have been involved in "thuggish" appearing behavior.
- JO slugged a guy on National TV
- Tins was involved in two nightclub altercations
- Quis was involved in a nightclub altercation

In terms of a "likeable" character, the guy has a decent argument except he left out Granger.

A plausible argument can be made that Dunleavy and Granger are the only two likeable non-thugs getting serious minutes for the Pacers.
- Murphy is not very good, thus not very likeable.
- JO's selfish-appearing slogball adds to his non-likeability.
- Foster's lack of offense takes him out of the running in a "likeability" contest.
- Ike is injured
- Shawne is getting DNP-cds (and has his own "incident")



I'm not saying I agree. I'm just saying, put yourself in the casual fan's shoes. Dunleavy is a likeable player. This particular casual fan messed up by not including Danny, who has absolutely no thuggish behavior on his record.

Other than that excluding Danny, the casual fan can provide reasons for his opinion (even though you may disagree).

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 02:06 PM
That's mean-spirited. You have no proof of that statement. Even overlooking the "racial" allegation, you can't judge what criteria people use to decide what they approve of or not.

I don't mean to pick a fight, but it is unreasonable of you to say people are ignorant or "not up to a discussion" because they have decided they can live without the Pacers. Sure, many of the people you are talking about couldn't name this year's line-up. But it is unreasonable to expect them to know. They stopped paying attention months ago for what seemed to them very good reasons, and when they are not paying attention they don't keep up with changes. That is not ignorance on the part of the public.





I don't understand your point. When someone tells me they don't go to games and they don't follow the Pacers because they are a bunch of thugs - why can't I judge that.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 02:08 PM
.

- Foster's lack of offense takes him out of the running in a "likeability" contest.




If that is true, then that is just sad. I thought Indiana fans were supposed to be better than that

McKeyFan
12-20-2007, 02:10 PM
If that is true, then that is just sad. I thought Indiana fans were supposed to be better than that

I think it's not true for a core of fans (and a larger core than other cities), but the majority still have an All-Star game mentality.

But I agree with your sentiment, UB.

grace
12-20-2007, 02:23 PM
UB, people are entitled to their opinions whether you agree with them or not. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean they're ignorant. (However, it might mean you're arrogant.)

This will mean absolutely nothing coming from me, but I have no problem with people's reasons for not going to games. If you don't like who is on the team don't go. Until the team goes at least one whole season without a dust up involving the police some people's opinions of the team isn't going to change.

Personally, if I was dying to go to a basketball game, but didn't want to watch the Pacers I'd go watch Butler play. Their fieldhouse is what Conseco was patterned after, their team is good, and I assume they don't have all the piped in noise that so many people can't stand.

Trader Joe
12-20-2007, 02:31 PM
Unfortunately, many people in the city of Indianapolis and state of Indiana define a "thug" as someone with more than one visible tattoo and a different hair cut than them. This state has some issues that haven't been dealt with yet and that certainly hurts the Pacers. It will be interesting to see what happens when we play the Pistons on a Saturday night at home especially if we win these next three games before that back to back stretch.

CableKC
12-20-2007, 02:33 PM
As for the Indiana Pacer fans that live in the area and are able to go to the games but don't. I BOOO them. Wake up and see that you have a competitive and fun team to watch. I know there have been off the court problems, but you have to support your team. I live here in Oakland CA. And I go to Warriors games from time to time. The Warriors fan base is way more supportive of the Warriors then the Pacers fans are of Pacers, at least it seems that way. The fans get up and cheer for their team. I watch 95% of the Pacers games, and I swear the fans sit on there hands for most of the time. God bless Indiana, but the fans need to wake up and get off their conservative butts.
To be fair.......prior to Nelson returning to the Warriors and changing to a more exciting "up-tempo / shoot as many 3pt shots as possible" offense....Warrior fans were pretty much the same way as they are now the Pacers. Things really picked up for the Warriors...and I would guess this goes for the attendance as well...only after the Warriors/Pacers trade when they made it back to the Playoffs for the first time after a long Playoff drought.

I think that Pacer fans will slowly start to come back to the Fieldhouse after we start winning games that we should be winning and occassionally beating teams that we shouldn't be beating ( which we are slowly doing now ) and we make it back to the Playoffs. But I'm guessing that fans won't truly pay attention until we start getting down to the end of the race towards the Playoffs.

But as long as we make the Playoffs....I am going to guess that we won't be having this type of conversation next season. Attendance may suck now....but as Doug was saying....TPTB have to earn the trust of the fans back and the only way that they can do this is by winning games while showing that we aren't the same team as before.

grace
12-20-2007, 02:36 PM
As for the Indiana Pacer fans that live in the area and are able to go to the games but don't. I BOOO them.

I'm not about to tell anyone how to spend their money. Just because someone is a fan it doesn't mean they have to go to a game in person. That's why God created TV and man created HD.

Trader Joe
12-20-2007, 02:36 PM
Man, I don't know how anyone can still call JO a "thug" or question his desire to win or help the team right now. First off his role in the brawl was mostly peacemaker til people entered the court and that is when he finally took action toward them. Was it the smartest course of action? Absolutely not, but I can't say I blame JO. He avoided altercation for as long as possible and at some point you have to defend yourself and your teammates. Players in all sports have attacked fans that enter the court/field of play for years now. It might not be the right thing to do, but once you as a fan enter that area you forfeit your right to safety IMO.
Also JO has done as much charity work for the city of Indianapolis as any other major athlete has done in any other city. JO has arguably done more charity work for this city than any other athlete in Indianapolis's pro sports history, yes, even Peyton Manning and Reggie Miller.
For anyone who says, JO is selfish or not a true competitor and that is why I don't like him I encourage you to watch the FTs he shot left handed after getting his right arm torn out of its socket against Denver. Just so he MIGHT be able to come back and play. The man might not be the best team leader, I'll grant you that, but he loves this franchise and this city there is no doubt of that in my mind.

JayRedd
12-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Man, I don't know how anyone can still call JO a "thug"

He dresses like this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo?slug=f5863f121361168270f39129d47bdaed-getty-_76112959rh001_pacers_o_neal&prov=getty



That's MORE than enough for plenty of idiots.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 02:46 PM
UB, people are entitled to their opinions whether you agree with them or not. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean they're ignorant. (However, it might mean you're arrogant.)

This will mean absolutely nothing coming from me, but I have no problem with people's reasons for not going to games. If you don't like who is on the team don't go.


My ignorant comment was made in response to what Kegboy had posted.


A guy I work with was offered a free ticket to the Bulls game last week from a friend of his (great seats that his company owns) and he turned him down, because "I'm not gonna go watch a bunch of thugs. That's all that team is, a bunch of thugs. Dunleavy's the only guy I like at all."

The guy specificially said the team is a bunch of thugs. That's all that team is, a bunch of thugs

So sure the guy is entitled to his opinion, but opinions can be wrong and they can be ignorant. And saying that all the team is, is a bunch of thugs is wrong by any measure and ignorant.

Am I being arrogant pointing that out - maybe.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Dammit...I wanted to post pictures but I forgot how to use the internet.


Jay's right.

Putnam
12-20-2007, 03:01 PM
I don't understand your point. When someone tells me they don't go to games and they don't follow the Pacers because they are a bunch of thugs - why can't I judge that.

You can disagree with them. But you are on thin ice when you start judging their intellects or calling them ignorant or racist.

The people who consider the Pacers to be thugs are probably basing their opinions on old information. But that information might well have been correct (or seemed to be correct) at the time they drew their conclusion. They were not being ignorant. They were being rational and reasonable.


Now, I reckon you feel that it is ignorant to persist in an opinion after facts and circumstances change. I can answer that in two ways:

1. The Pacers have not yet cleaned up their act completely. Two players are still on the court docket, with felony charges pending.

2. It is not the responsibility of the public or any individual acting in his private interest to keep their opinions current. People are allowed to hold onto their opinions.

It is the duty of the object to take action to help those people change their opinion. Jesus taught this, and Paul wrote, "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they should curse you, they will see your good works and bless our heavenly father." Gandhi and Dr. King never assumed anything different. Dr. King's writings contain very little contempt for white bigots. They were wrong, but he never, or only rarely, ended by just calling them ignorant. He believed that they could be persuaded if enough evidence was presented to them that the black man deserved justice and opportunity. And he accepted that it was his task to present that evidence, not the other people's duty to go forth voluntarily to disprove their own opinions.

Putnam
12-20-2007, 03:07 PM
Man, I don't know how anyone can still call JO a "thug"


Wait a minute. Can you cite an instance of any person saying, "Jermaine O'Neal is a thug."

Or are you committing a error of logic?

A. Some Pacers are thugs.
B. Jermaine O'Neal is a Pacer.

does not lead to

C. Jermaine O'Neal is a thug.

Unless you can quote a specific person who speaks critically of Jermaine, your statement is illogical and unfair.

Since86
12-20-2007, 03:16 PM
You can disagree with them. But you are on thin ice when you start judging their intellects or calling them ignorant or racist.

The people who consider the Pacers to be thugs are probably basing their opinions on old information. But that information might well have been correct (or seemed to be correct) at the time they drew their conclusion. They were not being ignorant. They were being rational and reasonable.

And Buck, let's not forget this: The Pacers have not yet cleaned up their act. Two players are still on the court docket, with felony charges pending.

Saying someone is ignorant about a subject isn't measuring their intellectual ability to learn, or saying they are stupid. It's simply saying they're ignorant about that matter.

If they don't take the time to actually know the facts, but rather the headlines and base their opinion solely on that, then in fact, they are ignorant. Not knowing the facts is the definition of the word.


lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ignorant

If people are offended by being told they're ignorant about the situation then they need to find out the rest of the information. A team made up of a bunch of thugs is a blanket statement that's wrong.

Is Danny, Dun, Murph, Foster, Owens, Deiner, Rush, or Ike thugs? JO and Harrison only ran into problems with the Brawl, and Reggie was involved too but I doubt you'll see him coined as a thug.

Basing your opinion on 1% of fact is being ignorant and irresponsible. That's on those who want to remain in the dark either out of pure laziness or because they're uninterested to begin with.

Infinite MAN_force
12-20-2007, 03:16 PM
You can disagree with them. But you are on thin ice when you start judging their intellects or calling them ignorant or racist.

The people who consider the Pacers to be thugs are probably basing their opinions on old information. But that information might well have been correct (or seemed to be correct) at the time they drew their conclusion. They were not being ignorant. They were being rational and reasonable.

And Buck, let's not forget this: The Pacers have not yet cleaned up their act. Two players are still on the court docket, with felony charges pending.

Im calling BS. When people talk out of their *** about things they know nothing about, than you are well within your rights to refer to them as ignorant. Thats the definition. They have a right to say what they want, and I (or Unclebuck in this case) have a right to call them ignorant.

RamBo_Lamar
12-20-2007, 03:29 PM
My ignorant comment was made in response to what Kegboy had posted.


So sure the guy is entitled to his opinion, but opinions can be wrong and they can be ignorant. And saying that all the team is, is a bunch of thugs is wrong by any measure and ignorant.

Am I being arrogant pointing that out - maybe.


From my personal experience, I have discussed the Pacers with many folks
who while far from being ignorant in general, are quite ignorant when it
comes specifically to the Pacers.

When I think of a "thug", I think of someone whose purpose is to intimidate
and/or rough-up others with the intent of either stealing from them, or
infringing on their personal freedoms somehow.

When someone refers to the Pacer's as "thugs", then my reaction is that
they are highly ignorant (at least towards the current crop of Pacers), if
nothing else, because these guys are intent on winning basketball games
and not running around with the intent of trying to jack people up.

I do understand your point UB, and do not believe it is arrogance.

Kegboy
12-20-2007, 03:37 PM
:drama:

I love it when a plan comes together. :evillaugh

Kegboy
12-20-2007, 03:39 PM
Btw, for all the time we've spent on this board disecting the word thug, you'd think somebody would have written their doctoral thesis on the subject already.

Unclebuck
12-20-2007, 03:41 PM
:drama:

I love it when a plan comes together. :evillaugh

You are the puppetmaster

Putnam
12-20-2007, 03:44 PM
Im calling BS. When people talk out of their *** about things they know nothing about, than you are well within your rights to refer to them as ignorant. Thats the definition. They have a right to say what they want, and I (or Unclebuck in this case) have a right to call them ignorant.



OK. You call BS if you want. Let me ask this.

Do you hope that the Pacers will eventually reconnect with the community and get back to 16,000 or more average attendance? I do.

If you said yes, do you think that PS&E can afford to call the non-attenders ignorant, with the air of contempt that that implies about the target audience that they are trying to woo back into the seats?

Or do you think that the Pacers would be better advised to redouble its efforts to get clean, stay clean and provide lots and lots and lots of evidence that these Pacers are not like they used to be?




...things they know nothing about...

OK, Here you are being dishonest. You know good and well that the people who disapprove of the Pacers DO know about the Brawl, and they DO know about Club Rio and they DO know about 8 Seconds. Those things happened. People are alloed to remember them. The 8 Seconds thing is still before the court, so you can't expect people to have forgotten it.

Eindar
12-20-2007, 03:45 PM
Does it have to be that complicated?

What I'm wondering is if there's every been any significant period of time where both the Pacers and Colts have had high attendance ratings. Isn't it possible that this city is simply unable to support two professional franchises at a high level?

Naptown_Seth
12-20-2007, 03:45 PM
The original article posted

Well, considering earlier reports telling us that JO'B was an emotionless stats machine Bill Belichick clone
I know that I'm the big Rick fanboy, but honestly I think I try to be fair. I don't dislike JOB and never have, I just thought too much was dumped on Rick in terms of blame.

In that regard how is this not 100% identical to articles about Rick circa his first season with the Pacers? Dalembert hated JOB and said he'd suffer anything to show up to play against him. JOB had a cold, aloof rep coming out of Philly. JOB was fired despite having great success his first season. The Pacers org is saying "we don't see any of that".

Again, this doesn't mean JOB is a bad guy or bad coach, or that maybe he hasn't altered his personality even. But Rick took Ron Artest from fights with cameras and Riley and suspensions for flagrants to a guy who only missed one game for suspension, made his only AS team, won DPOY and had no notable incidents off-court his first season. He came in and went no-nonsense year one, a year that didn't even feature a shooting (victim or not, it was an incident).

Stats? You want stats? Rick ran roughshod over the rest of the NBA with his defensive stats making Ron's case for DPOY. "We don't even keep that, what's that even mean" was the outcry from most coaches. Cold stats machine was definitely the Rick MO, both before and during his Pacers tenure.

Seriously, try to remember the culture around the Pacers after winning 6 straight playoff games by double digits as well as game 1 vs Detroit. NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING! No one. In fact having the best record over DET and the first win of that series there was a serious "ha ha, we showed you" around hiring Rick after the Pistons fired him.

In short - too freaking early. If it was anything but a love-fest right now it would be an outright disaster. I'm happy and hopeful about the direction, but as a guy that recently said "Granger is Pippen" I know a little bit about jumping the gun. :o

I think JOB can get this team going, but I think Rick could have too. They have and had roster issues. If JOB faces serious games missed by Tinsley things could get really ugly...again. Or imagine if Dunleavy was shooting sub-30% from 3 this year like he did last year.

The coach has impacted the team, perhaps he has coaxed things out of players that Rick couldn't have, but ultimately last year the team started 29-24 which is still a long ways off for this group, and several players have had to step things up dramatically in order to get where they are even now.

This team has yet to give me that feeling of confidence, that sense that other teams need to look out. It's a lot like last year's team, they were winning but it never felt firm, never felt solid and secure.

JOB is a good coach, so was Rick, so here we are, basically the same spot as the last 3 years. And it took a big surprise for many fans to reach that mark. At this point I'd cite the one true improvement being in the area of discipline. I'm not sure Rick ever went off on players, though both he and JOB will yank minutes from a guy who's flopping (see Shawne Williams, Murph a few weeks ago, Diener).


It had to help JOB that he followed an emotional corpse.

I like Rick a lot, but passion is not his forte.
True. :) Or should I say :unimpress

Then again, remember how showing no emotion proved that Larry was a great coach and had the maturity to know what a big moment was and when the job wasn't really done?

Naptown_Seth
12-20-2007, 03:52 PM
He must have been really disgusted at Danny then. I was, and he's my favorite player. I don't cuss or swear, but Danny had me wanting to.
Yeah, brutal night. He's regressing in the mental game. I don't mean smarts, but confidence which I think Mal commented on when we were at the LA game (someone around PD did, that's for sure). He almost always looks like he's on the outside of the play looking in, trying to figure out what table he's supposed to sit at. Basically the opposite of Dunleavy right now. I assume that the freedom on offense is just too confusing for him, that he hadn't found his game yet, not enough to freelance into it when needed.

I do think he still can be Pippen, but he needs to believe it too and see how to be that in this system. I guess we are back to waiting on the bell to ring.


Attendence - I blame Reggie. Yes, seriously I sorta do. And Peyton. That's star power, one left a huge void and the other has stepped into that void. JO needed to be that guy but hasn't, simply because he hasn't been the key guy in a big win late, not nearly enough at least. And really no other Pacer has come close.

For better or worse Reggie's shadow is still looming here. He was that iconic, and the off-court stuff has only amplified it.

Putnam
12-20-2007, 03:57 PM
If people are offended by being told they're ignorant about the situation then they need to find out the rest of the information.

Basing your opinion on 1% of fact is being ignorant and irresponsible. That's on those who want to remain in the dark either out of pure laziness or because they're uninterested to begin with.

Calling it "1% of fact" is a supposition. My whole point from the start has been that people are allowed to be disinterested. And people are allowed to lose interest in something they once cared about. That doesn't make them evil.

Since86 probably hold some opinions that are out of date. I don't think he is evil or even ignorant because of that.

Putnam
12-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Does it have to be that complicated?

What I'm wondering is if there's every been any significant period of time where both the Pacers and Colts have had high attendance ratings. Isn't it possible that this city is simply unable to support two professional franchises at a high level?


It is possible, but all the numbers about amusement spending and recreational participation make it unlikely. There are plenty of people out and about doing stuff and spending money.

TheDon
12-20-2007, 04:12 PM
You know good and well that the people who disapprove of the Pacers DO know about the Brawl, and they DO know about Club Rio and they DO know about 8 Seconds. Those things happened. People are alloed to remember them. The 8 Seconds thing is still before the court, so you can't expect people to have forgotten it.

The thing that sucks however is that's probably all they know currently about the team and care to know.

FrenchConnection
12-20-2007, 04:14 PM
I know that I'm the big Rick fanboy, but honestly I think I try to be fair. I don't dislike JOB and never have, I just thought too much was dumped on Rick in terms of blame.

In that regard how is this not 100% identical to articles about Rick circa his first season with the Pacers? Dalembert hated JOB and said he'd suffer anything to show up to play against him. JOB had a cold, aloof rep coming out of Philly. JOB was fired despite having great success his first season. The Pacers org is saying "we don't see any of that".

Again, this doesn't mean JOB is a bad guy or bad coach, or that maybe he hasn't altered his personality even. But Rick took Ron Artest from fights with cameras and Riley and suspensions for flagrants to a guy who only missed one game for suspension, made his only AS team, won DPOY and had no notable incidents off-court his first season. He came in and went no-nonsense year one, a year that didn't even feature a shooting (victim or not, it was an incident).

Seriously, try to remember the culture around the Pacers after winning 6 straight playoff games by double digits as well as game 1 vs Detroit. NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING! No one. In fact having the best record over DET and the first win of that series there was a serious "ha ha, we showed you" around hiring Rick after the Pistons fired him.

In short - too freaking early. If it was anything but a love-fest right now it would be an outright disaster. I'm happy and hopeful about the direction, but as a guy that recently said "Granger is Pippen" I know a little bit about jumping the gun. :o

I think JOB can get this team going, but I think Rick could have too. They have and had roster issues. If JOB faces serious games missed by Tinsley things could get really ugly...again. Or imagine if Dunleavy was shooting sub-30% from 3 this year like he did last year.

The coach has impacted the team, perhaps he has coaxed things out of players that Rick couldn't have, but ultimately last year the team started 29-24 which is still a long ways off for this group, and several players have had to step things up dramatically in order to get where they are even now.

This team has yet to give me that feeling of confidence, that sense that other teams need to look out. It's a lot like last year's team, they were winning but it never felt firm, never felt solid and secure.

JOB is a good coach, so was Rick, so here we are, basically the same spot as the last 3 years. And it took a big surprise for many fans to reach that mark.

Everything that you say may be true, but I would imagine that Dalembert hates JOB because he forced him to run in no uncertain terms. Sam is a good player, but he is much like Kwame Brown in that he trys to get my on talent alone and does not work very hard. From what I know of JOB that does not fly on his teams. And he probably used some "motivational" techniques to try to get him to work that backfired and he lost the player.

About the issue with the fans. I have lived in a lot of places in the United States, and fans in Indiana are unique. I think that ABA Days summed it up unintentionally. He states "what this team used to stand for." In no other place that I have lived does a professional sports team have to stand for anything. For me, I really don't care if those guys on the floor are despicable human beings. I don't believe that our players are the "good guys," but Indiana fans seem to require this. I lived in Bloomington for 8 years, so I have a close connection to the "IU Nation." For many, IU players have to be good clean-cut boys who go to class Monday through Friday and church on Sunday. I grew up in Buffalo with the Jim Kelly Bills. Jim Kelly was a wife beater, Bruce Smith a giant a-hole, and I don't even want to get into Cornelius Bennett. But these guys were heroes in the town for all that didn't know them. Hockey players get in bar fights in strip clubs all the time and it is no big deal. Imagine if JO punched a bouncer at a strip bar? Here in Cincinnati, Chad Johnson is the most popular sports figure and everyone misses Bob Huggins. Just imagine the reaction if a Colts player did an end zone celebration? Listen, I am not passing judgment on Indiana fans, but they are unique as professional and college fans. Maybe it is better that way, but it sure is different.

Putnam
12-20-2007, 04:16 PM
:drama:

I love it when a plan comes together. :evillaugh


Glad to oblige, I guess.


:thisisfun:

Naptown_Seth
12-20-2007, 04:16 PM
If that is true, then that is just sad. I thought Indiana fans were supposed to be better than that
Worse yet, I thought fans were EXPLICITLY citing things like "I just want guys that work hard and hustle and do the little things and do them the right way".

Or apparently not. I mean if Foster isn't the kind of player they want to support, then who is?

This is pretty consistent with the outlandish overreaction to the previous problems. This team IS NOT winning more than last year, that's the problem. If they were 20-2 the bandwagon would be in full force, and double that if the Colts were to lose to Jacksonville at home in the first playoff game.

Suddenly the Colts would be back to chokers (um, anyone listen to sports radio just prior to the playoffs last year, or at least Shade ;) ) and the Pacers would be doing it the right way, and fans would love Dun, Danny, Jeff and even the "finally learned his lesson and straightened up his act" Tinsley.

Most of the fans there 4-5 years ago were there to be seen near Reggie. Most of them couldn't tell you the core roster even from 98. Rik, Reggie, Dale, then maybe you get Jax or Best thrown in, maybe they kinda remember McKey. God help you if you ask them who the PG was for the first team to hit the ECF.

People not going to see "thugs" wouldn't go regardless. They don't have an interest in the sport, not to the degree that they'd pay to watch .500 ball. "Thug" is just the excuse du jour.

How do I know? Because we've already been through this exact issue circa 1991 or so.


French C - you are on to something, but I would follow that with this. A lot of that "what a team stands for" is hype. They put up with A LOT of Bobby Knight. A LOT. Why? Titles. The Colts had the Doss shooting, didn't make one tiny dent in the fanbase. However, just a few years prior when the team was "only" making the playoffs they struggled to sell out.

Not only was that struggle to sell out the Dome not related to character, the 2 primary targets of fan disgust, at least fans that didn't feel the need to go to games, were DUNGY and MANNING. Two of the top character guys you'll ever get. So what was their horrible fault, why did they both need to go? "Can't win the big one".

It was almost dogmatic on sports talk around town. They'll never win with those guys in those positions. Forget character, they just don't have what it takes to get over the hump.

In short, one thing that really has always p***** me off about Indy is how horribly hypocritical it is. They'll talk one game, but they won't back it up. They want wins too, and not just wins, but big wins. .500 is too boring to care about.

Hicks
12-20-2007, 04:22 PM
That's mean-spirited. You have no proof of that statement. Even overlooking the "racial" allegation, you can't judge what criteria people use to decide what they approve of or not.

I don't mean to pick a fight, but it is unreasonable of you to say people are ignorant or "not up to a discussion" because they have decided they can live without the Pacers.

I know there's 2 more pages of this, probably having to do with this, but before getting to it I have to say that I don't see that being Unclebuck's point at all. He was saying they were not up to a discussion because they have decided that the Pacers roster is comprised of thugs.

Hicks
12-20-2007, 04:24 PM
If that is true, then that is just sad. I thought Indiana fans were supposed to be better than that

Yeah I don't see that at all. Actually, Jeff gets some of the loudest applause of any player (and before the race card is thrown out on that one too, he gets a lot more than Murphy).

Dr. Goldfoot
12-20-2007, 04:31 PM
While I agree with you Seth, nobody wants to hear what you're saying because it puts the blame on them. I almost posted in the thread earlier but I re-read the title and deleted.

Not going because they're thugs isn't why none of my friends go. In fact their thuggery has endeared them to my people. People aren't interested because they are losers( I watch regardless and have faith and see little improvements most people look at the record and say hmmm). They're 2 games above .500 right now. If you go to a game there's a pretty good chance they'll lose. That and there's no star power. Potential doesn't = star power.

I'll keep on supporting the team and watch every game. I'll also listen to people say things like "You're a Pacer fan?" and let whoever is next to me explain how much of a Pacer fan I am. 'Cause quite honestly if I turn and start to explain **** to doubters I'll miss the freakin' Dunleavy behind the back pass to Tins who whizzes the ball thru a guys legs to Danny who power bounces the ball one handed in the lane for an alley-oop to a flying down the lane Foster. Then I'd be pissed.

aceace
12-20-2007, 05:02 PM
Prior to the season starting you could have went to Vegas and made a bet on the number of wins (over/under)the Pacers would have this season. That number was 31, teams like San Antonio,Dallas and Phx were in the 50's. After winning 35 games last year and having an 11 game losing streak, most fans did not expect the Pacers to do anything this year just as Las Vegas didn't. We now know they are wrong, Pacers could easily be 4-5 games better than the current 14-12. I think if the Pacers get 8-10 games over .500 people will take notice and come back. The national media mostly ESPN is still pretty quiet about our Pacers. They are not convinced yet. Think of the article a week or so ago from the Orlando newspaper (after we beat them) that stated we had a terrible record when we were actually 9-10 at the time. It takes time, we really have not proved enough (yet) to justify sell outs or high attendance. We don't have a superstar. (AKA:LeBron,Kobe,Eddie Gill:-))JO when healthy can dominate the paint on both ends. He is just now 100%. There was talk of trade all summer, the wounds need to heal, the players need to avoid negative media and the Pacers need to keep winning. The fans will return.

Trader Joe
12-20-2007, 07:41 PM
He dresses like this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo?slug=f5863f121361168270f39129d47bdaed-getty-_76112959rh001_pacers_o_neal&prov=getty



That's MORE than enough for plenty of idiots.

Yeah he looks so thuggish hosting Jermaine O'Neal's Christmas Program.

Trader Joe
12-20-2007, 07:42 PM
Wait a minute. Can you cite an instance of any person saying, "Jermaine O'Neal is a thug."

Or are you committing a error of logic?

A. Some Pacers are thugs.
B. Jermaine O'Neal is a Pacer.

does not lead to

C. Jermaine O'Neal is a thug.

Unless you can quote a specific person who speaks critically of Jermaine, your statement is illogical and unfair.
I wasn't saying that to anyone in particular. I was just speaking in more of a general sense. Not calling anyone out. Probably should have been more clear about that.

Doug
12-20-2007, 09:42 PM
At what point in time did you perform a Vulcan mind meld on me?

That is two post in a row in this thread that you have said word for word what I was thinking.

Great minds think alike.

Before long I guess I'll be humming "straight up" buy Puala Abdul. ;) (inside joke for you outsiders)

If I start posting "odd thoughts" and you start posting in Haiku, this board might implode.

As for Paula, I was young and impressionable. She was cute. What can I say?

FrenchConnection
12-20-2007, 10:06 PM
If I start posting "odd thoughts" and you start posting in Haiku, this board might implode.

As for Paula, I was young and impressionable. She was cute. What can I say?

Now that takes me back. I used to have a girlfriend in the 9th grade who was a big fan. Had posters all over her walls and the like. Made me watch that opposites Attract video over and over and constantly reminded me of her rags to riches (or at least Laker Girl to international pop star) story. She also smelled like aquanet and cheap perfume. What I wouldn't give to be young again...

Will Galen
12-20-2007, 10:31 PM
What I wouldn't give to be young again...


HAHAHAHA! At 34, you're STILL a young pup!

Infinite MAN_force
12-21-2007, 12:14 AM
OK. You call BS if you want. Let me ask this.

Do you hope that the Pacers will eventually reconnect with the community and get back to 16,000 or more average attendance? I do.

If you said yes, do you think that PS&E can afford to call the non-attenders ignorant, with the air of contempt that that implies about the target audience that they are trying to woo back into the seats?

Or do you think that the Pacers would be better advised to redouble its efforts to get clean, stay clean and provide lots and lots and lots of evidence that these Pacers are not like they used to be?




OK, Here you are being dishonest. You know good and well that the people who disapprove of the Pacers DO know about the Brawl, and they DO know about Club Rio and they DO know about 8 Seconds. Those things happened. People are alloed to remember them. The 8 Seconds thing is still before the court, so you can't expect people to have forgotten it.


On your first point... yes very much. I'm not advocating the pacers organization lash out at the fans for not showing support. They need to keep winning, stay out of trouble, and either trade or somehow rehabilitate jamaal 's image. They just need some good PR, and for the colts season to end.

But on a PERSONAL level, I am very disappointed in people who refer to the pacers as a "bunch of thugs" when they can barely name two players on the roster. I try not to talk with authoritative knowledge about anything I am not fairly knowledgeable about, and I hold other people to the same standard.

If they said "Jamaal Tinsley is a thug and needs to go before I support the pacers again..." I get that. I don't agree with it, but there is enough evidence to make the argument... but don't tell me the team sucks if you don't know their record, don't tell me they are boring if you haven't watched them, and so on so forth.

There have been some incidents, but god forbid anyone investigate the severity of them or anything. I mean Shawne William's thing basically amounted to a traffic stop... Tinsley was cleary a victim... even 8 seconds seems kind of iffy to me, nothing to big there. Stephan Jackson shooting off his unregistered gun in front of a strip club is the only one that is really offensive in my opinion, and thank god he is gone now.

I encounter this stuff all the time... it has become a point of frustration for me when i can't even get the dude at the bar in O-charley's to turn on the Pacers Game instead of whatever game is on TNT. Its the freaking local team!
It has happened twice at two different places.

It wasn't much more than a year ago that some of these supposed colts fans used to trash the colts, call them chokers, can't win the big game, whine cry bla bla bla... Total bandwagoners who now profess their love and adoration for the team. I am very disappointed in the sport's fan base in this city, they seem to have no loyalty. Look at the fanbase in New York, hard for a team to be in a much worse situation... and the fans still come. I realize the market sizes are vastly different, but the point stands.

Maybe my rant is getting a bit off topic here, but my main point is that I (as in me personally) will continue to refer to people who call the pacers a "bunch of thugs" as ignorant, ... which by the way is not the same as "stupid". Sometimes I wonder, though, if people even realize Stephan Jackson and Ron Artest are gone, and that in this latest incident that Tinsley did NOT in fact fire an assault rifle. It helps to read the article folks.

Of course I am not referring to anyone on this board, General Public in this case. And honestly, I think the general public is ignorant (even stupid) when it comes to most things anyway.

Peck
12-21-2007, 03:46 AM
Man talk about takeing a thread and going way way off target of where it was intended to be.:)

My only real point to posting the article and bolding J.O.'s comments was to point out that from my point of view (remember I'm a Jermaine hater) it looked like Jermaine was totally buying into the system. My point of saying from what I've seen on the floor was to say that I haven't vommited every time Jermaine has come in recently.

However, since we have gone off topic here I might as well jump on the slide and go full bore as well.

I still want to make a case that many fans were not only very upset at the players, but many of them were down right repulsed by managements reaction to everything.

Why was Shawne Williams ordeal over the summer so easily put to bed? Because the Pacers responded to it immediately and with a public rebuke of the player and the action.

From the time Ron Artest arrived in our fair city we were treated to Donnie's lawyer speak. Never a public rebuke or a "as a team we don't condone these actions".

I'm not even talking about the brawl, I'm talking about from the camera to the giving the finger to the crowd to the cheap shots, to the kicking the water bucket, etc., etc.

By the time the brawl had occured the mood was already starting to sour. The brawl then just became the perfect storm for which the discontent manifested itself, but even then it wasn't complete disgust.

While there were never and I mean NEVER as meany people in real life in Indiana blindly supporting the Pacers during the brawl as there were here online, there certainly were some.

Now add in Ron's trade demand, the 8 second saloon, club Rio, players talking to the refs. each and every time down the floor and cursing the coach when being removed. Not to mention a style of play that was just downright boring to watch. You now have a toxic stew.

Not once in any of the above mentioned disputes did we ever have a strong voice from management, hell who am I trying to kid, WALSH saying that the team did not support what was going on.

No, we got legal speak. We got the "we must let the legal system run it's course".

While that is all fine and good for the law, this is a business and sorry right or wrong public perception is huge when you are dealing with a business that depends on public support.

Basically I think some people came to view the franchise as at best enablers and at worst supporters of the type of behavior.

So while we can all sit here on the Pacers Digest and poo poo the rubes for not supporting the team. I think it is only fair to understand that there is no one thing that has driven us to this point and there is no one thing that will get us back to where we were in the late 90's.

Winning is the treatment but just like when you are battleing any disease or injury it takes an entire regiment of treatments to cure the patient.

Time, wins, no police records, some positive P.R., the Colts to stop being so dominate (I'm not kidding, the Colts rise to fame hurt the Pacers as much as anything) and maybe one player to start to break out and the fans will return.

But it won't be this year. They may start to come back this year, but the real return is going to take 2-4 years and believe me the Pacers Sports and Entertainment group knows this.

Peck
12-21-2007, 03:50 AM
On your first point... yes very much. I'm not advocating the pacers organization lash out at the fans for not showing support. They need to keep winning, stay out of trouble, and either trade or somehow rehabilitate jamaal 's image. They just need some good PR, and for the colts season to end.

But on a PERSONAL level, I am very disappointed in people who refer to the pacers as a "bunch of thugs" when they can barely name two players on the roster. I try not to talk with authoritative knowledge about anything I am not fairly knowledgeable about, and I hold other people to the same standard.

If they said "Jamaal Tinsley is a thug and needs to go before I support the pacers again..." I get that. I don't agree with it, but there is enough evidence to make the argument... but don't tell me the team sucks if you don't know their record, don't tell me they are boring if you haven't watched them, and so on so forth.

There have been some incidents, but god forbid anyone investigate the severity of them or anything. I mean Shawne William's thing basically amounted to a traffic stop... Tinsley was cleary a victim... even 8 seconds seems kind of iffy to me, nothing to big there. Stephan Jackson shooting off his unregistered gun in front of a strip club is the only one that is really offensive in my opinion, and thank god he is gone now.

I encounter this stuff all the time... it has become a point of frustration for me when i can't even get the dude at the bar in O-charley's to turn on the Pacers Game instead of whatever game is on TNT. Its the freaking local team!
It has happened twice at two different places.

It wasn't much more than a year ago that some of these supposed colts fans used to trash the colts, call them chokers, can't win the big game, whine cry bla bla bla... Total bandwagoners who now profess their love and adoration for the team. I am very disappointed in the sport's fan base in this city, they seem to have no loyalty. Look at the fanbase in New York, hard for a team to be in a much worse situation... and the fans still come. I realize the market sizes are vastly different, but the point stands.

Maybe my rant is getting a bit off topic here, but my main point is that I (as in me personally) will continue to refer to people who call the pacers a "bunch of thugs" as ignorant, ... which by the way is not the same as "stupid". Sometimes I wonder, though, if people even realize Stephan Jackson and Ron Artest are gone, and that in this latest incident that Tinsley did NOT in fact fire an assault rifle. It helps to read the article folks.
Of course I am not referring to anyone on this board, General Public in this case. And honestly, I think the general public is ignorant (even stupid) when it comes to most things anyway.


You are right about the firearm, however one thing that I don't think that we have even mentioned here online (that I can remember anyway) but believe me was already noticed by some of my co-workers. Was the fact that one of Jamaal's posse was arrested on an outstanding warrent for dealing in drugs.

Also don't skim over the fact that one of the passengers in Williams car was also picked up for dealing in drugs.

You and I can gloss over that and make any excuse we want about it, but again public perception of a business that relies on public support.

McKeyFan
12-21-2007, 09:05 AM
My only real point to posting the article and bolding J.O.'s comments was to point out that from my point of view (remember I'm a Jermaine hater) it looked like Jermaine was totally buying into the system. My point of saying from what I've seen on the floor was to say that I haven't vommited every time Jermaine has come in recently.

I got the same good vibes listening to JO on that radio show.

However, his comments continued to reinforce JO's self-centered and immature outlook on life (which he is oblivious to). He talked a lot about his stats getting big again, about becoming "dominant" again, etc, etc.

I think he's a good guy and has a good heart. But his natural instinct is not to win at any cost and sacrifice personally to make that happen--at least that's the vibe you pick up when you listen to him.

But just because it's not his natural instinct doesn't mean he can't do it, eventually. And, to his credit, he's farther down the road this year than he has been in the past.

able
12-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I got the same good vibes listening to JO on that radio show.

However, his comments continued to reinforce JO's self-centered and immature outlook on life (which he is oblivious to). He talked a lot about his stats getting big again, about becoming "dominant" again, etc, etc.

I think he's a good guy and has a good heart. But his natural instinct is not to win at any cost and sacrifice personally to make that happen--at least that's the vibe you pick up when you listen to him.

But just because it's not his natural instinct doesn't mean he can't do it, eventually. And, to his credit, he's farther down the road this year than he has been in the past.

I have to disagree slightly with you here, I think he is unselfish, I think he does sacrify body, mind and limbs for the team and when he says hist stats go up he not only is right, (see the stats over the last 5 or so games) but it is also in the better interest of the team.

Not only does the team need a "go to guy" when it is "that" time, or when a play dies, he and JT are the main ones who can create and make (Quis to an extent as well) and him "on form" means high percentage chances, not only in his own shot, but also for others, as is the same in the case of JT, they draw double, sometimes even (in JO's case) tripple teams, which allows others to be "good" and score bunches (see Mike in the last games, he CAN make the points because they are focussing on a penetrating JTand a ready JO)

He (JO) is capable again at this moment, to break his man down and score at will, which is something that is a very good thing for this team

So I like to see his stats go up, it allows others to have the same results and a team that wins.

JayRedd
12-21-2007, 10:46 AM
You are right about the firearm, however one thing that I don't think that we have even mentioned here online (that I can remember anyway) but believe me was already noticed by some of my co-workers. Was the fact that one of Jamaal's posse was arrested on an outstanding warrent for dealing in drugs.

Also don't skim over the fact that one of the passengers in Williams car was also picked up for dealing in drugs.

You and I can gloss over that and make any excuse we want about it, but again public perception of a business that relies on public support.

Some people would also take objection to the fact that Jamaal Tinsley has a brother who was carrying a gun on him, and his response to getting shot at with an AK-47 was to enter into a (presumably) high-speed chase after the guy.

BillS
12-21-2007, 11:02 AM
Some people would also take objection to the fact that Jamaal Tinsley has a brother who was carrying a gun on him, and his response to getting shot at with an AK-47 was to (presumably) enter into a high-speed chase after the guy.

1) Tinsley's brother had a carry permit. You may disagree with the politics of that but he was legal.

2) As I understand it, subsequent information (which, of course, no one reads because it isn't in the headlines) showed he did not fire during the chase.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-21-2007, 11:05 AM
The way I understand it none of it happened anyway. The just the way I understood it.

Oh yeah on attendance, I think the words we're all looking for in these 9 paragraph posts are......fair-weather fans.

JayRedd
12-21-2007, 11:07 AM
1) Tinsley's brother had a carry permit. You may disagree with the politics of that but he was legal.

2) As I understand it, subsequent information (which, of course, no one reads because it isn't in the headlines) showed he did not fire during the chase.

I have no problem with it.

Plenty of people could.

LoneGranger33
12-21-2007, 11:09 AM
The way I understand it none of it happened anyway. The just the way I understood it.

Oh yeah on attendance, I think the words we're all looking for in these 9 paragraph posts are......fair-weather fans.

We might not like to admit it, but these fairweather fans are the ones who keep this franchise afloat. As much as we need diehards like the people on this website, if we - the team, that is - don't appeal to the mainstream folk in Indiana, then say hello to Oklahoma City.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-21-2007, 11:11 AM
They'll be back as soon as they realize it isn't raining anymore.

McKeyFan
12-21-2007, 12:05 PM
I have to disagree slightly with you here, I think he is unselfish, I think he does sacrify body, mind and limbs for the team and when he says hist stats go up he not only is right, (see the stats over the last 5 or so games) but it is also in the better interest of the team.

Not only does the team need a "go to guy" when it is "that" time, or when a play dies, he and JT are the main ones who can create and make (Quis to an extent as well) and him "on form" means high percentage chances, not only in his own shot, but also for others, as is the same in the case of JT, they draw double, sometimes even (in JO's case) tripple teams, which allows others to be "good" and score bunches (see Mike in the last games, he CAN make the points because they are focussing on a penetrating JTand a ready JO)

He (JO) is capable again at this moment, to break his man down and score at will, which is something that is a very good thing for this team

So I like to see his stats go up, it allows others to have the same results and a team that wins.

Those are all good points.

I've never been too impressed with JO as the "go-to" man. But, then again, who else is there?

I purposely used the word "self-centered" rather than "selfish." The difference, in my mind, being a conscious, deliberate, malicious type of me-first mentality.

I don't think JO is malicious at all. He seems more like a kid who is excited about show and tell and forgets that he needs to wait his turn.

Trader Joe
12-21-2007, 12:08 PM
Those are all good points.

I've never been too impressed with JO as the "go-to" man. But, then again, who else is there?

I purposely used the word "self-centered" rather than "selfish." The difference, in my mind, being a conscious, deliberate, malicious type of me-first mentality.

I don't think JO is malicious at all. He seems more like a kid who is excited about show and tell and forgets that he needs to wait his turn.

I do kind of agree with this even as a JO supporter. He is always very intent on making everyone know that he feels dominant again and that his stats are going up. And like I said in another thread thats only a bad thing if his shooting percentages dip. If they stay up then him scoring 19-20 PPG doesn't bother me one bit.