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View Full Version : JO's rebounding has slipped this year



Elgin56
12-18-2007, 02:34 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/stats/


Is he rebounding less because of being slowed by injuries or lack of effort on his part?


(please copy and paste correct and without "hooks", see rules)

ab2cmiller
12-18-2007, 02:45 PM
Injuries and minutes. Minutes are down about 5 per game compared to last year.

Less minutes = less rebounds.

Trader Joe
12-18-2007, 02:52 PM
I seriously doubt its his effort considering he is drawing as many charges if not more than he did last year.
Its probably minutes and his knee.

croz24
12-18-2007, 03:07 PM
effort and lack of fundamentals

Young
12-18-2007, 03:12 PM
Injuries probably had some effect but for the most part it's due to playing less minutes.

He is playing 30 minutes and averaging 7-8 rebounds. Usually he plays 35 minutes and grabs 9-10 rebounds. He plays those extra 5 minutes he gets those extra 2 rebounds or so.

Unclebuck
12-18-2007, 03:14 PM
Some of it is the difference in defensive philosophy under O'Brien. JO is being asked to defend on the ball more down low - in years past Foster usually defended the better one-on-one player down low. Which freed JO to help more and be in better position to rebound. PLus in this defensive system the big guys are all over the place, helping, trapping, so it makes sense that the center and power forward rebound numbers would be lower, while the small forward and shooting guard numbers should be higher. (I'm factoring out the increased number of shots and inceased number of rebounds available)

Wow, I'm not sure I just made any sense at all.

NuffSaid
12-18-2007, 03:26 PM
Actually, UB, you made pretty good sense. :D

Infinite MAN_force
12-18-2007, 03:34 PM
The minutes factor is one thing. It seems like rebounding is up for the gaurds and SFs to sort of counter it as well, If we have very good rebounding numbers as a team I don't worry as long as the team is getting a lot of rebounds.

I am a lot more happy with the shooting percentages the last couple games. He is actually getting the kind of % a big man is supposed to, for the first time in his career. 55% since he came back from injury.

since return from injury...

19 points
7.5 rebounds
2 blocks
55% from the field

thats in 30 minutes per game... the extra 5 minutes would probably be worth two more rebounds.

Since86
12-18-2007, 03:48 PM
effort and lack of fundamentals

Lack of fundamentals, how so? If you're gonna bring up the "doesn't box out argument," then I would like to point out one of the greatest, if not THE greatest coach of all time doesn't believe in boxing out. John Wooden never taught any of his teams to box out, said he would rather his guys chase down the ball then fight the other team and take them out of position.

EDIT: I would also like to point out the the Pacers lead the league in rebounding, meaning that it's being focused on by every single player. When the whole team is concentrating on rebounding there's fewer rebounds to go around because they're spread out more evenly.

JayRedd
12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Knee surgery.

Hicks
12-18-2007, 08:30 PM
What UB said + never as good as the numbers implied IMO.

Evan_The_Dude
12-18-2007, 08:37 PM
I think it has a bit to do with the system too. If you notice, the rebounding is pretty even among those that play the most minutes. Jeff averages 9.1 but that's basically his main job. But look at Jamaal, Dunleavy, and Granger, they're all averaging career numbers in rebounds. Hell, as long as we continue to lead the league and we continue to rebound the ball, I don't care who gets the most.

EDIT: It also shows that our defense is working. If the opposition is forced into jump shots, that'll create a longer rebound for one of our guards which explains why Danny, Jamaal, and Mike are all averaging career numbers in rebounds.

BruceLeeroy
12-18-2007, 08:46 PM
I agree with Mal and Buck here and I'm sure it has some to do with his knee not being 100%. JO has never been a good rebounder anyway IMO. He doesn't pursue the basketball well and he rarely ever boxes out.

In the past it has bothered me, but if he can keep his shooting percentages high and continues anchoring our D like he has been it's ok. We have very capable rebounders now unlike in the past so we don't need his rebounding as much.

That's an interesting philosophy by coach Wooden by the way. I'd never heard that.

Bball
12-18-2007, 08:54 PM
Lack of fundamentals, how so? If you're gonna bring up the "doesn't box out argument," then I would like to point out one of the greatest, if not THE greatest coach of all time doesn't believe in boxing out. John Wooden never taught any of his teams to box out, said he would rather his guys chase down the ball then fight the other team and take them out of position.


I wonder if that philosophy is based around having the athletes and good size at the normal positions to pull it off? Would Coach Wooden not be more interested in his players boxing out if he had an undersized center or players playing out of position? ...Or a 3 guard lineup?

-Bball

Infinite MAN_force
12-18-2007, 09:41 PM
It also shows that our defense is working. If the opposition is forced into jump shots, that'll create a longer rebound for one of our guards which explains why Danny, Jamaal, and Mike are all averaging career numbers in rebounds.

This is a very good point... The system is designed to keep the ball out of the paint... which means more long rebounds off of jumpshots. I really don't think it has anything to do with his knee. He is blocking shots at his usual clip and his scoring is better than ever.

BlueNGold
12-18-2007, 10:00 PM
This is a very good point... The system is designed to keep the ball out of the paint... which means more long rebounds off of jumpshots. I really don't think it has anything to do with his knee. He is blocking shots at his usual clip and his scoring is better than ever.

JO's shot blocking is way down. At 1.6bpg, this is the first time as an Indiana Pacer he has been below 2. Last year, he was at 2.6. His rebounding is the lowest in his Indiana Pacer history as well. Only during his first year as a Pacer did he score lower.

As for his knee, it appears it's doing OK. However, he's a shell of the player I thought he would be about 4 years ago.

Anthem
12-18-2007, 10:13 PM
I wonder what his averages look like if you only include the time since he sat with the knee. It was very clearly bothering him during that time, but since then it's seemed pretty decent. His blocks and % are way up.

Anybody wanna do the math?

Anthem
12-18-2007, 10:15 PM
However, he's a shell of the player I thought he would be about 4 years ago.
Did you see last night's game? Or the game before that?

He's looked pretty good both nights. I mean, there's still plenty of room for improvement but "shell" just isn't the same guy I'm watching.

BlueNGold
12-18-2007, 10:20 PM
I wonder what his averages look like if you only include the time since he sat with the knee. It was very clearly bothering him during that time, but since then it's seemed pretty decent. His blocks and % are way up.

Anybody wanna do the math?

Last 9 games since his return. Numbers are up, but not much. Not bad, but still a clear drop.

7.44 rpg
1.88 bpg
19.1 pts

BlueNGold
12-18-2007, 10:28 PM
Did you see last night's game? Or the game before that?

He's looked pretty good both nights. I mean, there's still plenty of room for improvement but "shell" just isn't the same guy I'm watching.

JO's a good player, but do you remember just how good he was? He was a young buck 25 yo that many people thought would turn out much better. I was convinced at one point he was going to be better than Duncan and Garnett. Just look at his numbers at the age of 24-26. He was a solid 20-10 guy and getting better.

Then, the Denver game happened. After that, his rebounding numbers never recovered, and I would argue he started playing softer in terms of going to the bucket...more of a fadeaway game. IMO, a guy like JO...incredibly long, athletic and quick....even though thin...should be going in and dunking over people pretty regularly. That's what I was looking forward with him, and I never saw it.

Edit: The big difference for me is that NBA players usually peak between the ages of 28 and 32. JO has already peaked IMO. If healthy, I think he was good enough to average 25 ppg and 12 boards in his prime. He was my favorite player until it became clear to me that he was never going to meet expectations. I didn't buy his bobble head for nothing... Perhaps my expectations were too high.

McKeyFan
12-18-2007, 11:44 PM
John Wooden never taught any of his teams to box out, said he would rather his guys chase down the ball then fight the other team and take them out of position.

My dad coached me, and strongly emphasized boxing out. He played for John Wooden at UCLA.

Dismissing boxing out doesn't sound like Mr. Wooden to me. I'll need to see a quote somewhere before I believe it.

Evan_The_Dude
12-18-2007, 11:59 PM
Think about it like this guys. The last couple of seasons our defense sucked. We allowed opponents to shoot a high percentage against us, and the opposing guards and small forwards consistently were able to get inside the paint on us. Because of that, Jermaine had countless opportunities to block shots.

Fast forward to this season. The defense is designed to slow down dribble penetration. Everybody's hands are moving, we're deflecting balls, we're intercepting passes, and we're taking charges. What we mostly give up now is three-point shots.

Maybe it's true that Jermaine was never a great rebounder and maybe he was just tall and in the right place at the right time. Say what you want about that. But this is what I see... I see that because we're doing what the defense is supposed to do [work as one cohesive unit], Jermaine doesn't have as many opportunities to block shots as he's had in the past seasons. On top of that, you also have other guys sharing the shot blocking load in Danny Granger, David Harrison, and now and then a few others join in. You also have Jamaal Tinsley pulling 2 steals per game, Dunleavy and Daniels constantly deflecting passes, and Jeff Foster playing solid overall defense.

When you have those things, you won't see a guy averaging 2.6 blocks per game. I'm HAPPY Jermaine doesn't have the shot blocking opportunities he's had in the past. And because our defense has done better at slowing down dribble penetration, we're forcing more long jump shots which is allowing Tinsley, Granger, and Dunleavy to have career rebounding numbers because there's a lot more long rebounds now.

If Jermaine was sucking on offense, then I'd say his lack of rebounding and shot blocking is due to his knee surgery. But I KNOW that's not the case because he had his best shot blocking numbers and had solid rebounding numbers just last season on a bad non-surgically repaired knee. Since he's been back this season, he's looked very solid on offense. I haven't been this confident in his offensive abilities in a long time. The last couple of seasons he almost became primarily a jump shooter. But this season while he's still shooting the jumper, he's also killing the opposition with his turnaround jumper and that beautiful lefty finger roll. His shooting percentage in the past few games is off the charts too.

He might not be the player he once was, but he's still damn good and well above average. It's been a long time since I've seen him able to rack up so many points in under 30 minutes in a game, but he's doing it now. I'm one of the ones that was ready to give up and say we need to let him go while we can still get something for him because he just doesn't fit the system. Well I'm happy to say I was damn wrong.

Bball
12-19-2007, 01:29 AM
My dad coached me, and strongly emphasized boxing out. He played for John Wooden at UCLA.

Dismissing boxing out doesn't sound like Mr. Wooden to me. I'll need to see a quote somewhere before I believe it.

I'm thinking there's more to it than Since86 is saying. I could see Wooden stressing finding your man, making contact, get him backed out of there, BUT keeping your hands high and not continuing to box out over going after the ball once it's there for the taking. Find a body, make contact, back him out, then get separation and get to the ball. That makes more sense to me.

I'm just having a hard time thinking Coach Wooden wouldn't want his players to find a man and put a body on them first, and only then get after the ball.

-Bball

BruceLeeroy
12-19-2007, 01:36 AM
Think about it like this guys. The last couple of seasons our defense sucked. We allowed opponents to shoot a high percentage against us, and the opposing guards and small forwards consistently were able to get inside the paint on us. Because of that, Jermaine had countless opportunities to block shots.

Fast forward to this season. The defense is designed to slow down dribble penetration. Everybody's hands are moving, we're deflecting balls, we're intercepting passes, and we're taking charges. What we mostly give up now is three-point shots.

Maybe it's true that Jermaine was never a great rebounder and maybe he was just tall and in the right place at the right time. Say what you want about that. But this is what I see... I see that because we're doing what the defense is supposed to do [work as one cohesive unit], Jermaine doesn't have as many opportunities to block shots as he's had in the past seasons. On top of that, you also have other guys sharing the shot blocking load in Danny Granger, David Harrison, and now and then a few others join in. You also have Jamaal Tinsley pulling 2 steals per game, Dunleavy and Daniels constantly deflecting passes, and Jeff Foster playing solid overall defense.

When you have those things, you won't see a guy averaging 2.6 blocks per game. I'm HAPPY Jermaine doesn't have the shot blocking opportunities he's had in the past. And because our defense has done better at slowing down dribble penetration, we're forcing more long jump shots which is allowing Tinsley, Granger, and Dunleavy to have career rebounding numbers because there's a lot more long rebounds now.

If Jermaine was sucking on offense, then I'd say his lack of rebounding and shot blocking is due to his knee surgery. But I KNOW that's not the case because he had his best shot blocking numbers and had solid rebounding numbers just last season on a bad non-surgically repaired knee. Since he's been back this season, he's looked very solid on offense. I haven't been this confident in his offensive abilities in a long time. The last couple of seasons he almost became primarily a jump shooter. But this season while he's still shooting the jumper, he's also killing the opposition with his turnaround jumper and that beautiful lefty finger roll. His shooting percentage in the past few games is off the charts too.

He might not be the player he once was, but he's still damn good and well above average. It's been a long time since I've seen him able to rack up so many points in under 30 minutes in a game, but he's doing it now. I'm one of the ones that was ready to give up and say we need to let him go while we can still get something for him because he just doesn't fit the system. Well I'm happy to say I was damn wrong.

Good post. Let's hope he can keep it up. With him and Dun playing at the level they've been I think we could make some noise in the playoffs.

dohman
12-19-2007, 01:48 AM
Our team is having a career year in rebounding. This year everyone is making a effort to play defense and rebound. I would rather have the team up in rebounds and JO a little down then the other way around.

I am sure other things may play into it but that is how I see it