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TheDon
12-14-2007, 10:29 PM
There has to be some way we can drop this guy I would honestly be in full support of a DNP-CD unless Shawne, Jeff, Dave, and Ike were all injured. He picked up more rebounds than JO but JO had to set out nearly all the 2nd half with foul trouble trying to cover murphy's worthless excuse for defense. Tinsley had a good night, looks like Rush can hit that three with regularity finally but it's all a wash cause we let the raptors go on a 2305983246098235 - 0 run in the 4th quarter. :censored::mad:

Oneal07
12-14-2007, 10:30 PM
YES. . . PLAY Sims instead. Horrible Defender.

Anthem
12-14-2007, 10:52 PM
Jermaine wasn't very good on offense tonight, and I like Jermaine. But he did pick up at least two fouls trying to help Murph.

After Murphy missed his fifth straight 3-pointer, Denari said "Well, shooters just keep shooting" and I yelled at the TV "THEN WHAT'S TROY'S EXCUSE?"

d_c
12-14-2007, 10:55 PM
After Murphy missed his fifth straight 3-pointer, Denari said "Well, shooters just keep shooting" and I yelled at the TV "THEN WHAT'S TROY'S EXCUSE?"

That's the thing about Murphy. He's strange. He's kind of a contradiction to his own reputation.

He's a good rebounder, but doesn't help you control the boards.

He works very hard, but he's still out of shape.

He's a good shooter.....except when he's missing a lot of shots.

TheDon
12-14-2007, 11:06 PM
After Murphy missed his fifth straight 3-pointer, Denari said "Well, shooters just keep shooting" and I yelled at the TV "THEN WHAT'S TROY'S EXCUSE?"

I'm using that as my sig, that's gold. :D

aero
12-14-2007, 11:08 PM
to the subject title.

yep pretty much. ;)

Oneal07
12-14-2007, 11:15 PM
Jermaine wasn't very good on offense tonight, and I like Jermaine. But he did pick up at least two fouls trying to help Murph.

After Murphy missed his fifth straight 3-pointer, Denari said "Well, shooters just keep shooting" and I yelled at the TV "THEN WHAT'S TROY'S EXCUSE?"

:laugh:

D-BONE
12-14-2007, 11:18 PM
Our two best interior options currently are Harrison and Foster IMO. Don't care how much time JO misses, 1 rebound or whatever he ended up with is a crock. Murphy...well what is there to say that hasn't already been said?

TheDon
12-14-2007, 11:23 PM
Jermaine wasn't very good on offense tonight, and I like Jermaine. But he did pick up at least two fouls trying to help Murph.

I think they were actually on consecutive defenses that is happened then granger picked one up trying to help murphy on the 3rd. I could be wrong they could have been spaced out but even quinn buckner started to point the finger saying "oh well the reason JO picked up that foul was cause murphy let bosh go to his left instead of forcing him to the baseline." but I remember pleading at the TV screen "for **** sakes jim pull murphy out before our entire frontcourt fouls out!" he'd just stand there after the fact with the same dumb look on his face that's half "it wasn't my fault" and half disbelief that he let yet another guy beat him.

You'd think the law of averages would catch up with him and there'd eventually be someone in the NBA he can guard, but nope murphy's law applies for him no matter what "anything bad that could happen in fact will happen" for Murphy

Pacerized
12-15-2007, 12:04 AM
I agree, I'd give Murphy up for just about anyone. If our bigs ever get healthy Murphy won't see any playing time. You'd think if Dumars could sell the Bobcats on Mohamed, then Larry could've sold them on the merits of Murphy.
I'd have to say if J.O. doesn't get back to playing his game within the next 2-3 weeks I'm going to wonder if this is all we'll get from him this season. With J. O. playing like he is, and Murphy begging someone to take him out of the lineup, Ike really has a chance to shine when he comes back.
Give me a lineup at the end of the season with Ike, and Foster starting. Then J.O., Harrison, and Williams taking all the bench minutes.

BoomBaby33
12-15-2007, 12:13 AM
Thats what i've been trying to tell people since the third game of the season (but not necessarily last year when we picked him up because RC's offense was better for a slow player). He is a false positive. He has good stats, but only on a individual stat level, not a team level. I'd much rather have a Jeff Foster that does things that don't even show up on the box score. I still remember last year after the trade when he got schooled by Sheed in that game.

Not that I don't like him, but I just don't like him in Obie's offense. Now that we have an up tempo offense he just cant keep up. The only thing he contributes is a few rebounds and a 3 pointer or 2 for a game. I'd rather go with split minutes between Hulk (for defensive matchups) and Shawne Williams for a more athletic team. Troy can be useful in certain situations, but there just aren't very many of them.

One of my favorite games so far this year was when he got the DNP.

Evan_The_Dude
12-15-2007, 12:33 AM
I'd like to call Antonio Davis out of retirement.

Trader Joe
12-15-2007, 12:43 AM
Sometimes I just can't figure out Obie's coaching. I like what hes doing, but for the life of me I can't figure out why Troy played 33 minutes and Shawne played 6.

TheDon
12-15-2007, 12:48 AM
Sometimes I just can't figure out Obie's coaching. I like what hes doing, but for the life of me I can't figure out why Troy played 33 minutes and Shawne played 6.

or why dave only got 10

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 12:48 AM
Troy is the type of player you want logging the most minutes.....when he's on the opposition. What he subtracts with poor defense, he only adds back enough to even things out on his best days...which only come once every 10 games.

It's a shame the Pacers determine who plays based on paycheck. If Murphy was not making 10M or whatever, he would be a bench warmer.

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 12:51 AM
or why dave only got 10

Yes, Harrison scored 8 points in 10 minutes on 50% shooting with a block. 3 boards and only 1 foul. That would have been a miracle game for David last year.

Trader Joe
12-15-2007, 12:53 AM
Yeah really questionable moves. You have to wonder if we are trying showcase Murphy in some way. Of course hes really not helping us out.

TheDon
12-15-2007, 01:03 AM
I think he'd be great for Orlando, they have no problem with big contracts down there, all they do is stand at the 3 point line and wait for a pass and they've been looking for a way to get Rashard Lewis moved back over to SF instead of PF, they can offer us expiring contracts, and draft picks (picks is a bigtime stretch). Arroyo + Battie for Murphy works out. We get our backup PG we need whose contract is up after one year and Battie played the best ball of his life under O'Brian and his contract ends a year earlier tha murphy's would.

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 01:05 AM
Yeah really questionable moves. You have to wonder if we are trying showcase Murphy in some way. Of course hes really not helping us out.

If he was trying to sell Murphy, he certainly wouldn't let him put his uniform on let alone get on the floor...lol.

Claptonrocks
12-15-2007, 01:05 AM
How does Oneal get one rebound?
Murphy's contract will prevent the team from moving him
and whats with all the extra weight...

BoomBaby33
12-15-2007, 01:07 AM
Yeah really questionable moves. You have to wonder if we are trying showcase Murphy in some way. Of course hes really not helping us out.

Yeah, if your showcasing him, then don't play him. Just be the best car salesman you can be, and pull out his old Golden State Warrior "double double" stats and capabilites, and showcase those.

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 01:09 AM
How does Oneal get one rebound?
Murphy's contract will prevent the team from moving him
and whats with all the extra weight...

When you have a glass eater like Troy out there, all that's left are scraps....or Maybe JO's just using his vacation days before the year ends.

Yes, that's messed up. A 6'11" athletic long player like JO should get more than one rebound.

It's called effort.

TheDon
12-15-2007, 01:20 AM
I could be wrong about this but I think he was told by Bird to put on that extra added weight to bang down low with the other bigs of the league. I'm pretty sure it was Bird's idea and not JOB's cause JOB said he wanted Troy to lose 10lbs. That'd be pretty frustrating the GM of the team your on tells you you should put on 10lbs he goes puts some bulk on himself and then the new coach gets here and says lose 10lbs. I at least sympathize with murphy on that level but aside from that I hope they make him ride on the wing at 30,000 ft on the way to South Beach tonight.

d_c
12-15-2007, 02:22 AM
I could be wrong about this but I think he was told by Bird to put on that extra added weight to bang down low with the other bigs of the league. I'm pretty sure it was Bird's idea and not JOB's cause JOB said he wanted Troy to lose 10lbs. That'd be pretty frustrating the GM of the team your on tells you you should put on 10lbs he goes puts some bulk on himself and then the new coach gets here and says lose 10lbs. I at least sympathize with murphy on that level but aside from that I hope they make him ride on the wing at 30,000 ft on the way to South Beach tonight.

Murphy's chain has been yanked around quite a bit in that regard. The Warriors, after his rookie year where he showed some nice flashes, tried to bulk him up in hopes he'd be kind of like a Brad Miller 2.0

It worked the following year, but then the year after that he started developing foot problems (plantar fasciitis IIRC). It took away from his mobility a lot. Then when Nellie came in, he asked Murphy (along with everyone else) to slim down.

Then the Pacers ask him to bulk back up only to now hear again from JOB that he needs to lose 10 lbs. I'd be confused too if I were him.

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 02:29 AM
You slim down Murphy and he's Mike Dunleavy without the bball IQ.

The title to this thread could not be more appropriate.

McKeyFan
12-15-2007, 02:36 AM
I was thinking also that they might be showcasing him.

Oh well . . .

:rolleyes:

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 02:55 AM
I was thinking also that they might be showcasing him.

Oh well . . .

:rolleyes:

Well, if that was a showcase, we better tack on a hefty rebate.

But look at the good news. In a little while he will be a nice plump, juicy expiring contract.

Reckoner
12-15-2007, 02:58 AM
Well, if that was a showcase, we better tack on a hefty rebate.

But look at the good news. In a little while he will be a nice plump, juicy expiring contract.

2011 seems a long time away to me.

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 03:25 AM
2011 seems a long time away to me.

Where's the crying emoticon when I need it. You might want to delete that before someone sticks a gun in their mouth...

...oh, there it is. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

JayRedd
12-15-2007, 04:07 AM
Yeah really questionable moves. You have to wonder if we are trying showcase Murphy in some way. Of course hes really not helping us out.


I was thinking also that they might be showcasing him.


Well, if that was a showcase, we better tack on a hefty rebate.

Showcase him?

Please.

You could put this guy in a Showcase with the RV, the trip to Hawaii, the Jeep Wrangler and the jacuzzi and every GM in the League would still be like "Pass, Bob...I'd much rather have the dinette set with matching China cabinet."

d_c
12-15-2007, 05:12 AM
You'd think if Dumars could sell the Bobcats on Mohamed, then Larry could've sold them on the merits of Murphy.


Here's why that would have been a tough sell. Murphy costs between $4-5M more each year:

Nazr:
07-08' : $5.6m
08'-09': $6M
09'-10': $6.5M
10'-11: $6.8M

Murphy:
07-08' : $9.2M
08'-09': $10.1M
09'-10': $11M
10'-11: $12M

Roaming Gnome
12-15-2007, 10:28 AM
:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:
:bawl: How Long? :bawl:
:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:

LG33
12-15-2007, 10:33 AM
Murphy's chain has been yanked around quite a bit in that regard. The Warriors, after his rookie year where he showed some nice flashes, tried to bulk him up in hopes he'd be kind of like a Brad Miller 2.0

It worked the following year, but then the year after that he started developing foot problems (plantar fasciitis IIRC). It took away from his mobility a lot. Then when Nellie came in, he asked Murphy (along with everyone else) to slim down.

Then the Pacers ask him to bulk back up only to now hear again from JOB that he needs to lose 10 lbs. I'd be confused too if I were him.

They are all trying to find the weight at which Murphy might actually be productive. But he's dead weight, no matter how you cut it. It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't think he was Peja from behind the arc, hoisting up every shot he can.

Unclebuck
12-15-2007, 11:31 AM
I thought there were times last night when Murphy did a decent job in the team defense - but it seemed like in the 4th quarter he had more trouble.

Oneal07
12-15-2007, 11:48 AM
Here's why that would have been a tough sell. Murphy costs between $4-5M more each year:

Nazr:
07-08' : $5.6m
08'-09': $6M
09'-10': $6.5M
10'-11: $6.8M

Murphy:
07-08' : $9.2M
08'-09': $10.1M
09'-10': $11M
10'-11: $12M


:banghead::scream::whip2::growl::duh::2deadhors:co mputer::picard:

BlueNGold
12-15-2007, 12:31 PM
I thought there were times last night when Murphy did a decent job in the team defense - but it seemed like in the 4th quarter he had more trouble.

We lost last night only in part to Murphy.

The stats indicate our perimeter D was terrible. The raptors converted 14 more free throws....all while draining nearly 50% from 3. Very, very bad combination. It could be that the problem had something to do with our defensive scheme...or maybe something the Raps did to expose our poor defenders.

dlewyus
12-15-2007, 12:57 PM
Perhaps Troy's best value to the team would be to pick a fight each game. He and the other player would both be kicked out. That worked well in the Chicago game. He could actually become the defensive stopper we need. Put him on the other teams best player. Come to think of it, any player he gets kicked out with is a plus for our side. :box:

pwee31
12-15-2007, 01:49 PM
With Murph we'll have to stick it out, or find another big contract guy that's rotting elsewhere and hope that we can swap.

Besides that, we'll have to throw in someone worth while to stop the opposing GM from hanging up on us.

aceace
03-01-2008, 01:11 PM
Maybe Troys not so bad..... last 14 games.

14.8 points, 6.4 boards, exactly 50% shooting from 2 (69-138) and 3 (17-34) 88% FT (53-60) 3 assists, 1 t/o, 1 blk.

He has shot fewer 3's and appears to be taking it to the hoop more. These are better stats prior to him signing his last contract. The absence of JO has opened up the middle for him.

Anthem
03-01-2008, 03:07 PM
He has shot fewer 3's and appears to be taking it to the hoop more. These are better stats prior to him signing his last contract. The absence of JO has opened up the middle for him.
Not sure I buy that... I see nothing in his current game that wouldn't work next to Jermaine. And it wasn't like he was doing this in Golden State, where they sure didn't have anybody clogging the middle. No, I think this is a legitimate step up in Murphy's quality of play, regardless of his teammates.

I'm excited for him.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Maybe Troys not so bad..... last 14 games.

14.8 points, 6.4 boards, exactly 50% shooting from 2 (69-138) and 3 (17-34) 88% FT (53-60) 3 assists, 1 t/o, 1 blk.

He has shot fewer 3's and appears to be taking it to the hoop more. These are better stats prior to him signing his last contract. The absence of JO has opened up the middle for him.
Hey man, dang...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=663354&postcount=1


:cool: ;)


Anthem, I agree. His awareness on defense is also really up the last month. He hasn't become a great one on one guy, but he does work the traps and rotations pretty well. He's been asked to go off-dribble even under Rick. It's only the last month that he's really started to see that click.

Again, question for the JOB show - Troy, WTF happened Jim? :D

aceace
03-01-2008, 08:47 PM
Hey man, dang...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=663354&postcount=1


:cool: ;)


Anthem, I agree. His awareness on defense is also really up the last month. He hasn't become a great one on one guy, but he does work the traps and rotations pretty well. He's been asked to go off-dribble even under Rick. It's only the last month that he's really started to see that click.

Again, question for the JOB show - Troy, WTF happened Jim? :DI missed that thread NS or I would have made my post under that one. Last night Troy appeared to be playing with fire nearly getting T'ed up. He went 7-9 and looked as good as anyone, nothing forced. I call that playing within your talent.

imawhat
03-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Troy is definitely stepping up his game. I'd be okay with him coming off the bench if he's playing like this.

He is being really attentive to spacing the floor, and it's opening up slashing lanes. It'd be nice if the rest of the team caught on.

jeffg-body
03-02-2008, 12:24 AM
I am starting to get a bit bewildered on all of the Troy hating that goes on here. The guy does anything they ask of him, provides the effort night in and night out, and is an excellent teammate. His defense is never going to be lock down and we knew that coming in. Everyone harps on the contract and that is even more unfair. Someone offered him the money and he signed his name. How many people would tell their boss "no thanks, I didm't quite produce that kind of value" and turn that raise down? No one in their freakin right mind

Hailey12
03-02-2008, 01:06 AM
Showcase him?

Please.

You could put this guy in a Showcase with the RV, the trip to Hawaii, the Jeep Wrangler and the jacuzzi and every GM in the League would still be like "Pass, Bob...I'd much rather have the dinette set with matching China cabinet."

Don't you mean Drew?

Swingman
03-02-2008, 01:23 AM
I am starting to get a bit bewildered on all of the Troy hating that goes on here. The guy does anything they ask of him, provides the effort night in and night out, and is an excellent teammate. His defense is never going to be lock down and we knew that coming in. Everyone harps on the contract and that is even more unfair. Someone offered him the money and he signed his name. How many people would tell their boss "no thanks, I didm't quite produce that kind of value" and turn that raise down? No one in their freakin right mind

Of course someone won't turn down a pay raise. The Pacers on the other hand should have refused taking on bad contracts from other teams.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2008, 01:32 AM
Exactly. I think most of us like him as the person he appears to be, we just hate the business side of it up till now. They took a terrible contract for a guy that until recently was playing WAY below his salary.

I think a lot of us have always wanted to be able to praise Dun/Troy but they weren't handing out a lot of reasons for that.

d_c
03-02-2008, 04:01 AM
Everyone harps on the contract and that is even more unfair. Someone offered him the money and he signed his name. How many people would tell their boss "no thanks, I didm't quite produce that kind of value" and turn that raise down? No one in their freakin right mind

To be fair, Murphy and his agent (Dan Fegan who is also JRich's agent and is known to drive a hard bargain) demanded that contract and publicly threatened to ask for a trade if he didn't get it.

Mullin, being the naive rookie GM who wanted to establish stability so that he wouldn't have bunch of contract year players playing under a rookie coach, caved in.

So yeah, somebody did offer him the money, but only after Murphy and his agent demanded it. Not that it excludes Mullin from being responsible because he should have shown some more fortitude and willingness to use the leverage afforded to him by the CBA (right to match offers the following season).

JayRedd
03-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Don't you mean Drew?

Blasphemy.

aceace
03-02-2008, 03:07 PM
IMHO: Dun is not overpaid at all and if he keeps playing the next 3 years like he has this year he is a bargain.

With Murphy it has now become a lets wait and see. 9 or 10M is not that much if he's healthy for the duration of his contract. If he can get his shooting percentage up and stay consistent, which he has lately and Avg. 15/8 over 30 minutes he's worth keeping and paying.

Jonathan
11-30-2008, 01:51 PM
I agree Murphy is garbage and it is time McRoberts/Maceo start getting more minutes. I would be in favor of Moving Danny to the four if he can stay out of foul trouble.

PacerGuy
11-30-2008, 02:01 PM
I agree Murphy is garbage and it is time McRoberts/Maceo start getting more minutes. I would be in favor of Moving Danny to the four if he can stay out of foul trouble.
I hate double-double's! :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, Murph is my first choice given the talent in the league at his position, but for what we have & the style we play, there are much worse players then Murph.

LG33
11-30-2008, 02:03 PM
They are all trying to find the weight at which Murphy might actually be productive. But he's dead weight, no matter how you cut it. It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't think he was Peja from behind the arc, hoisting up every shot he can.

I'd like to believe that that was my worst comment ever on this forum, but in reality, it probably wasn't even in my bottom ten.

D-BONE
11-30-2008, 02:17 PM
Garbage is probably a little strong. Although I know I rode him hard last year, including in this thread, until he really improved his play in the latter portion of the season.

I'll give you overpaid. Double-Doubles are nice, but they are even nicer when they seem to really impact the outcome of games.

I guess he's earned the mantle of our top inside guy now. Not that that is any great recognition given our roster.

He's not unlike the majority of our players. Surrounded by several really good players, he'd be an excellent role player. I'd say an almost ideal second-unit big or starting PF if you have a good, rugged, physical C running with him.

Anthem
11-30-2008, 02:23 PM
I agree Murphy is garbage and it is time McRoberts/Maceo start getting more minutes. I would be in favor of Moving Danny to the four if he can stay out of foul trouble.
What a weird time to bump this old thread. Dude's been decent or better almost every game this season.

Jonathan
11-30-2008, 02:51 PM
What a weird time to bump this old thread. Dude's been decent or better almost every game this season.

His FG% is terrible. He is not knocking down the three ball while trailing. He is a ten million dollar version of Bruno Sundov that rebounds. He has little to no post game, slow on both ends of the floor and cannot stay in between his man and the basket on defense.

Doddage
11-30-2008, 03:01 PM
While his FG% is not as high as it has been in his previous years, I think the negativity is a bit unwarranted. He's definitely trying this year on both ends, and that's fine with me. I think he's just suffering from the Croshere effect, where people have higher expectations of him due to his contract.

Wage
11-30-2008, 03:18 PM
This is silly. Troy Murphy is our best big man.

mrknowname
11-30-2008, 04:12 PM
This is silly. Troy Murphy is our best big man.

then our big men suck

Los Angeles
11-30-2008, 04:32 PM
PLease, for the love of all that is holy in this world and the next, PLEASE stop bumping ridiculously old threads when you have nothing to say.

I beg you all.

:pray:

Anthem
11-30-2008, 05:41 PM
His FG% is terrible.
Sure, it's not great. But two things are making it worse: small sample and too many 3s. His FG% is somewhat close to his 3FG% because most of his FGs are 3s. I wish he'd shift the ratio a bit as well, but I'm not too upset about it.


He is not knocking down the three ball while trailing.
He's shooting .391 from 3. That's not shabby at all.


He is a ten million dollar version of Bruno Sundov that rebounds.
And scores and passes. Or did I miss the season where Bruno averaged double figures?


cannot stay in between his man and the basket on defense.
Do you watch the games? I've been shocked at how much better his D has been this year, and I've been his biggest detractor.

Look, no matter how unhappy you are with Troy's contributions, you're not going to get more from McBob or Baston. Or, for that matter, most of the big men in the league. Troy's playing well. Argue he's overpaid if you want, but don't ignore the good stuff he's doing on the floor. I get that you need a scapegoat for the losses, but Troy's not your guy.

BlueNGold
11-30-2008, 06:03 PM
This is silly. Troy Murphy is our best big man.

Rasho is our best big man. Troy, while a nice guy, is not a big man.

On offense, he can't even post up the PG. That's why he hovers around the three point line for an open look. Seriously, the phrase "bring it strong" is not in the man's vocabulary...and if he does try to do so, it is usually blocked.

On defense, he is an enormous liability. Baston and McRoberts are so much better on defense, it's not even funny. He cannot adequately defend anyone in the league with any semblance of an offensive game...whether he's defending someone 6', 6'6", or 6'10". Any amount of quickness, strength or athleticism and it's an And-One...or he simply watches or gets run over.

The truth is, he is the worst defensive player on the team...yet he starts because he can shoot the ball. Maybe his shooting stretches the defense some. I guess that's worth something. However, defense is the most important factor in winning ball games...particularly in the playoffs and the 4th quarter...a time we seem to struggle.

Edit: Ok, the above is based primarily on what I have seen in the past. I have not closely watched him this year...because it is so very painful to watch him play what should be defense. I will pay the price and watch the guy out there and give him a chance. In the meantime, can we rename his position to something other than POWER forward?

Anthem
11-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Ok, the above is based primarily on what I have seen in the past. I have not closely watched him this year.
Then you may want to rethink your opinion, since multiple posters have talked repeatedly about how he's playing a very different brand of ball than in the past.

Major Cold
11-30-2008, 08:47 PM
Seriously watch the games guys before making unfounded claims.

jeffg-body
11-30-2008, 08:51 PM
To be fair, Murphy and his agent (Dan Fegan who is also JRich's agent and is known to drive a hard bargain) demanded that contract and publicly threatened to ask for a trade if he didn't get it.

Mullin, being the naive rookie GM who wanted to establish stability so that he wouldn't have bunch of contract year players playing under a rookie coach, caved in.

So yeah, somebody did offer him the money, but only after Murphy and his agent demanded it. Not that it excludes Mullin from being responsible because he should have shown some more fortitude and willingness to use the leverage afforded to him by the CBA (right to match offers the following season).

He could have always let him walk if he didn't think it was a good deal?

Jonathan
11-30-2008, 09:06 PM
Make a legit case of Murphy being worth his contract? While he has improved he is still not feared in the NBA, the dude makes a lot of money.

d_c
11-30-2008, 09:10 PM
He could have always let him walk if he didn't think it was a good deal?

In hindsight, yes. Letting him walk was better than driving him to the bank.

The real hindsight was that Mullin should have traded away Murphy (among others) the moment he took over back in 2004. Actually, it's not hindsight as most Warrior fans criticized the move. It was a horribly constructed roster by the previous GM, for which he got fired. So then Mullin came in and promptly dished out long term contracts to the players on said roster. Go figure. That's a big reason Mullin is on the outs now.

As a Warrior fan, I'm OK with the end result of trading him for Harrington, who helped us for about a year, and then flipping Harrington for Crawford. I'd rather have that than Murphy, but I would have really just preferred Mullin trading him in the first place right when he took over. Oh well.

BlueNGold
11-30-2008, 11:38 PM
Then you may want to rethink your opinion, since multiple posters have talked repeatedly about how he's playing a very different brand of ball than in the past.

Like I said in the portion of my post you omitted, I'm going to give him a chance.

I have noticed he at least attempts to mix it up in the paint...which is more than what I saw last year. Even so, it's not real impressive. However, I will watch him and try out the kool-aid.

Anthem
11-30-2008, 11:44 PM
Make a legit case of Murphy being worth his contract? While he has improved he is still not feared in the NBA, the dude makes a lot of money.
I'm not going to go there. I'm fine with you arguing that he should be traded because he's chewing up our cap. I actually agree.

But calling the dude "garbage" when he's playing pretty well this year is out of line, and saying Baston or McBob should be playing in front of him doesn't speak well for your judgment.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-01-2008, 12:10 AM
Make a legit case of Murphy being worth his contract? While he has improved he is still not feared in the NBA, the dude makes a lot of money.

He probably doesn't deserve his contract. He is performing at a pretty high level so far.

1 of 7 players averaging a double double in the NBA.
3rd in rebounds.
.391 from three.

Midcoasted
12-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Garbage is probably a little strong. Although I know I rode him hard last year, including in this thread, until he really improved his play in the latter portion of the season.

I'll give you overpaid. Double-Doubles are nice, but they are even nicer when they seem to really impact the outcome of games.

I guess he's earned the mantle of our top inside guy now. Not that that is any great recognition given our roster.

He's not unlike the majority of our players. Surrounded by several really good players, he'd be an excellent role player. I'd say an almost ideal second-unit big or starting PF if you have a good, rugged, physical C running with him.

Exactly. The 1 piece we are missing is a dominant C. I'm not giving up on Hibbert though. He will probably be ready in a year or two. If we had Howard on this team we'd probably be in the Finals this year.

My question is, how do we ever go about acquiring a top 10 C. I guess pray night and day Hibbert is going to step his game up about 3 notches within the next couple years.

Murphy is worth every penny considering what Tinsley is getting still. He is having a career year. We are just lacking any true dominant big men. We have a project in Roy, but he may not be the answer.

Bball
12-01-2008, 04:21 AM
Anyone who is having problems watching Murphy play, or watching Dunleavey sit, just remind yourself you could be watching Stephen Jackson playing for the Pacers...

Major Cold
12-01-2008, 08:59 AM
Is Shaq worth his contract? Is JO? Is Marbury? Is Diaw? Is Marion? Is Ben Wallace?

There are plenty of people not worth their contract. And Troy's is making more than he is worth, but that does not mean he is worthless. Troy may not be the glamour guy with what he is getting paid, but the reality is Troy helps this team. Even with the contract.

duke dynamite
12-01-2008, 09:04 AM
Apparently some people aren't watching the same games I am.

I'm guilty of throwing certain people under a bus while we're losing sometimes, but Murphy has been playing quite well lately.

Eindar
12-01-2008, 10:32 AM
Is there a "win shares" stat in the NBA? I'd be interested to see how Murphy's numbers last year compare with this year, and also comparatively to others playing his position and making his salary. The argument isn't that he sucks, it's that he's possibly overpaid, or more accurately, that his stats don't help you win games.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Apparently some people aren't watching the same games I am.
Or at all.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-01-2008, 12:16 PM
Is there a "win shares" stat in the NBA? I'd be interested to see how Murphy's numbers last year compare with this year, and also comparatively to others playing his position and making his salary. The argument isn't that he sucks, it's that he's possibly overpaid, or more accurately, that his stats don't help you win games.

Troy is second to Danny on the team in WS.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 12:17 PM
The argument isn't that he sucks, it's that he's possibly overpaid, or more accurately, that his stats don't help you win games.
Endar, you've always got a pretty balanced opinion, so I think I must be misunderstanding you. Nobody's arguing that he's "possibly" overpaid. Of course he is. This entire thread is called "Troy Murphy is worthless." The argument is whether he sucks. I'm taking the line that he doesn't, but that's the argument.

If you're saying that we should just ignore Jonathan and BlueNGold and move on to more realistic discussions, then I'm completely good with that. I'd actually still take the point that his stats this year ARE helping us win games... or at least (given our record) helping us try to win games. He's not (for the most part) ripping rebounds away from his own teammates or just getting what's falling in his lap. He's not getting his points in garbage time.

EDIT: This sums it up for me. For the first time since he's been a Pacer, I've been content with having Murphy on the floor. He's playing some of the best ball of his life.

Eindar
12-01-2008, 12:24 PM
Endar, you've always got a pretty balanced opinion, but so I think I must be misunderstanding you. Nobody's arguing that he's "possibly" overpaid. Of course he is. This entire thread is called "Troy Murphy is worthless." The argument is whether he sucks. I'm taking the line that he doesn't, but that's the argument.

If you're saying that we should just ignore Jonathan and BlueNGold and move on to more realistic discussions, then I'm completely good with that. I'd actually still take the point that his stats this year ARE helping us win games... or at least (given our record) helping us try to win games. He's not (for the most part) ripping rebounds away from his own teammates or just getting what's falling in his lap. He's not getting his points in garbage time.

For the first time since he's been a Pacer, I've been content with having Murphy on the floor. He's playing some of the best ball of his life.

Well, I was trying to remain moderate. I still think the question shouldn't be "does Murphy suck?". The answer is NO. Murphy is, at worst, a good rotation big man. To get the word "suck" in there, you'd have to be an end of the bench, barely in the league guy.

Is he overpaid? Sure, but again, I was trying to not upset anyone.

Regardless, I think the only way to settle this is to see his win shares vs. other starting PFs in the league that make ~$10 million

Major Cold
12-01-2008, 12:31 PM
Without Troy we would have lost the Houston game.

Hicks
12-01-2008, 12:33 PM
EDIT: This sums it up for me. For the first time since he's been a Pacer, I've been content with having Murphy on the floor. He's playing some of the best ball of his life.

Can we get it on the record that Anthem echoed Larry Bird's thoughts on Troy Murphy? :D

NuffSaid
12-01-2008, 01:05 PM
I think Troy Murphy is a good basketball player. We (Pacers fans) just look at him and "connect" him to Austin Croshere, i.e., "overpaid" for what he brings to the hardwood, and confuse his "westcoast" output with what we're accustomed to seeing from a more traditional "half-court, eastcoast style" of play.

Would I like to see Troy banging more in and around the paint instead of floating out along the perimeter? Sure, but that's just NOT his game. And we, as Pacers fans, need to stop thinking of him in that framework.

Troy Murphy never has been nor will he ever be a back-to-the-basket type of PF. It's just not his game. We, the fans, just keep trying to plug him into that role. But this team does need one. So, the question should be, "Will this team every again acquire such a player and who will that player be?," (...Roy Hibbert anyone?...) instead of "Can someone like Troy Murphy ever become such a player?"

But I digress...

Is Troy a bit overpaid, perhaps. But he's only been w/the Pacers for 1 complete season. I liked what I saw of his game more towards the end of the season and had hoped he'd bring more of that aggressiveness back to the court. It's there, but in spurts. I think he's still trying to figure out when to take the jump shot and when to attack the rim. He still comes across as too even keeled for me, but he's been a surprise 20-10 guy thus far, and that's a bonus as far as I'm concerned because frankly I thought this team had seen it's last of 20-10 player when they traded JO to the Raptors.

You just have to put things in the right perspective. Troy Murphy's no Dwight Howard nor Amare Stoudimare. But he does fit into this team's style of play, and he IS productive. Would I like to see a more aggressive Troy Murphy out there? You bet! I think that will come as the season comes along and he begins to feel more comfortable filling his role and learning what situations call for him to take the deep ball versus driving into the paint for the possible And1.

Give it time, folks. We haven't even hit the 25% point to the season.

avoidingtheclowns
12-01-2008, 01:54 PM
I liked what I saw of his game more towards the end of the season and had hoped he'd bring more of that aggressiveness back to the court. It's there, but in spurts. I think he's still trying to figure out when to take the jump shot and when to attack the rim. He still comes across as too even keeled for me, but he's been a surprise 20-10 guy thus far, and that's a bonus as far as I'm concerned because frankly I thought this team had seen it's last of 20-10 player when they traded JO to the Raptors.

honestly my only real complaint about troy this season is what nuff just brought up -- inconsistency in driving to the basket. it seems like some games he makes the decision to attack and he's usually pretty successful at and then the next couple games he almost exclusively shoots jumpers. other than that troy has probably been a little better than i thought he could be when JOB was hired.

Jonathan
12-01-2008, 01:56 PM
For all you praising how great of rebounder Murphy is, he averages under 2 offensive rebounds a game. That is not a great rebounder. Murphy does not run the floor well and cannot drive the ball to basket. Murphy does not get to the foul line either for a player that takes over ten shots a game. Mc Roberts is a way better passer than him and Maceo can drive the ball to the rim better than him. We need to see what these two can do b/c they are in a contract years and our team is not winning right now. I think we should try to give this team a shot in the arm till Dunleavy comes back. Right now the Iverson deal seems to be burning Detroit and if we do not gain ground on them now we never will.

Country Boy
12-01-2008, 02:04 PM
For all you praising how great of rebounder Murphy is, he averages under 2 offensive rebounds a game. That is not a great rebounder. Murphy does not run the floor well and cannot drive the ball to basket. Murphy does not get to the foul line either for a player that takes over ten shots a game. Mc Roberts is a way better passer than him and Maceo can drive the ball to the rim better than him. We need to see what these two can do b/c they are in a contract years and our team is not winning right now. I think we should try to give this team a shot in the arm till Dunleavy comes back. Right now the Iverson deal seems to be burning Detroit and if we do not gain ground on them now we never will.


I guess you are smarter than Obie and Bird put together, right?

Jonathan
12-01-2008, 02:08 PM
I guess you are smarter than Obie and Bird put together, right?

How do you define smarter? I believe my GPA was higher than Larry Bird's in school.

Country Boy
12-01-2008, 02:14 PM
How do you define smarter? I believe my GPA was higher than Larry Bird's in school.

So was mine, but that doesn't translate to, I am a better coach than he is.

Jonathan
12-01-2008, 02:23 PM
So was mine, but that doesn't translate to, I am a better coach than he is.

Exactly, I just feel we need to mix things up right now. Detroit is not going to keep losing. I want our team to make the playoffs this year. I was expecting Murphy to have a very good year with Ford @ PG. He is not performing to my expectations of him, is all. I could use a more PC term than garbage or worthless but as a fan I am obliged to call out players when they are underperforming. This my bring in the backup QB argument but I feel McBob & Maceo should be playing some. If we are not winning right now with our current line up mix things up till Dunleavy comes back. I would be thrilled if we traded Q6 or Rasho/McBob or Maceo/Tinsley for an explosive PF and role player or players & Let Roy & B Rush develop if we are going to win under forty games is all.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 02:45 PM
He is not performing to my expectations of him, is all.
What were your expectations? He's been far better than I'd expected.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 02:51 PM
Can we get it on the record that Anthem echoed Larry Bird's thoughts on Troy Murphy? :D
:laugh: I've been waiting for Peck to come in here and bust my chops over defending Murphy after all of my criticism this summer. But my take towards any Pacer is pretty straightforward: criticize them when needed, but defend them against the lynch mob. There's plenty of things I dislike about Murphy's game (just like there were things I disliked about JO or Tinsley) but when people start using them as a scapegoat it makes me crazy.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Well, I was trying to remain moderate.
Moderate? Hey buddy, this is the internet. We don't do that sort of thing around here.

Peck
12-01-2008, 03:15 PM
:laugh: I've been waiting for Peck to come in here and bust my chops over defending Murphy after all of my criticism this summer. But my take towards any Pacer is pretty straightforward: criticize them when needed, but defend them against the lynch mob. There's plenty of things I dislike about Murphy's game (just like there were things I disliked about JO or Tinsley) but when people start using them as a scapegoat it makes me crazy.

Actually I'm just sitting back and doing two things.

1. Enjoying the irony.

2. Saving this thread to hard drive for the future.:devil:;)

OakMoses
12-01-2008, 03:39 PM
Troy Murphy never has been nor will he ever be a back-to-the-basket type of PF. It's just not his game.

I know he'll never be a traditional post-up guy, but why shouldn't we expect him to develop a go-to move and learn how to punish a smaller defender in the post? I'm not asking him to post up Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor, but I would like him to be able to post up Rashard Lewis and Gerald Wallace. The way his game is now it seems like he'd have trouble scoring with TJ Ford guarding him if you made him start with his back to the basket. Look at Rasho's game against Atlanta if you want to see an excellent example of knowing how to exploit smaller defenders in the post.

I like Troy and am pleased with his play this year, but if you watched the Houston game, it seemed like a good example of stats not telling the whole story. From the box score it looks like he had a great game, and his shooting in the 4th quarter was certainly integral to the win, but for the majority of the game he was being outplayed by both Louis Scola and Carl Landry.

As for offensive rebounding, there are some extraneous circumstances that lead to his lower numbers. I don't think that Troy is a great offensive rebounder even under the perfect conditions. However, with Dunleavy out we only have 2 decent 3-point shooters in our starting lineup: Danny and Troy. In order to space the floor and give guys like Daniels and TJ room to work in the paint, Troy needs to spend a fair bit of time on the perimeter. Also, we're running an offense that pulls the bigs away from the basket, thus making offensive rebounds harder to come by. Even Foster's offensive rebound numbers are down this year. In Troy's defense, I've noticed that he seems to have learned the Jeff Foster back-tap volleyball rebound. I don't think I ever remember seeing him do that before this year.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 04:00 PM
Actually I'm just sitting back and doing two things.

1. Enjoying the irony.

2. Saving this thread to hard drive for the future.:devil:;)

Well, for the record, I still don't like power forwards with no power. I want my big men close to the basket, not on the perimeter. And I think Murphy chews up far too much cap space... I'd be perfectly content if the Pacers moved him. He still makes far more stupid mistakes than I'd expect from a veteran with his experience. I think his shot selection needs work. And his defense is suprisingly bipolar... great one minute and atrocious the next.

But he's definitely performing far above my expectations for him, and if anyone was expecting much more then they were living in fantasy land.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 04:01 PM
I know he'll never be a traditional post-up guy, but why shouldn't we expect him to develop a go-to move and learn how to punish a smaller defender in the post? I'm not asking him to post up Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor, but I would like him to be able to post up Rashard Lewis and Gerald Wallace. The way his game is now it seems like he'd have trouble scoring with TJ Ford guarding him if you made him start with his back to the basket. Look at Rasho's game against Atlanta if you want to see an excellent example of knowing how to exploit smaller defenders in the post.
Absolutely. You'd think Dunleavy could do the same thing.

Bird's such a fan of well-rounded players, I can't understand why this hasn't been worked on.

Mourning
12-01-2008, 04:11 PM
I'm not going to go there. I'm fine with you arguing that he should be traded because he's chewing up our cap. I actually agree.

But calling the dude "garbage" when he's playing pretty well this year is out of line, and saying Baston or McBob should be playing in front of him doesn't speak well for your judgment.

Truer words couldn't be spoken when it comes to this topic.

duke dynamite
12-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Or at all.
Seems like it.

I think what has happened is that everyone falls victim to noticing his bad play more than his good. I'm guilty of that at times. His numbers are big, but quiet.

d_c
12-01-2008, 04:57 PM
Absolutely. You'd think Dunleavy could do the same thing.

Bird's such a fan of well-rounded players, I can't understand why this hasn't been worked on.

The Warriors spent countless hours trying to get him to work on this. He simply lacks the base strength in his lower body, even after all the protein shakes and hours in the gym he's put in.

Never seen a guy who works so hard in the gym get so little in return in his physique/conditioning.

Wage
12-01-2008, 05:06 PM
The Warriors spent countless hours trying to get him to work on this. He simply lacks the base strength in his lower body, even after all the protein shakes and hours in the gym he's put in.

Never seen a guy who works so hard in the gym get so little in return in his physique/conditioning.

It's simply not in his game, and I wish fans would just be glad for what he does do well, instead of focusing soley on the things he doesen't.

I wish Reggie would have developed some nice dribble moves and the ability to finish strong at the rim. It was not in his game, and I can accept that and appreciate what he did do well.

I wish Dale Davis would have developed the ability to at least draw iron on free throws. It was not in his game, and I can accept that and appreciate what he did do well.

Wishing a player could add something new to their game is fine. Hating them because they don't seems excessive to me.

Since86
12-01-2008, 05:08 PM
Never seen a guy who works so hard in the gym get so little in return in his physique/conditioning.

Come work out with me for a while, and that will make two people that you've seen. Trust me, it's a ***** to deal with.

Maybe it has something to do with us both being Irish?

OakMoses
12-01-2008, 05:38 PM
It's simply not in his game, and I wish fans would just be glad for what he does do well, instead of focusing soley on the things he doesen't.

I wish Reggie would have developed some nice dribble moves and the ability to finish strong at the rim. It was not in his game, and I can accept that and appreciate what he did do well.

I wish Dale Davis would have developed the ability to at least draw iron on free throws. It was not in his game, and I can accept that and appreciate what he did do well.

Wishing a player could add something new to their game is fine. Hating them because they don't seems excessive to me.

I just don't like the idea that NBA players can't develop new wrinkles. Also Troy's situation is different than Reggie's. Turning Reggie into a basket attacking finisher would have required athletic abilities that he just didn't have. I know that Troy's not the strongest dude around, but I don't see why that means he can't learn to shoot a jump hook over a 6'7" defender.

And just for the record, I like Troy as a player, and I'd probably like him as a person even though he cited American Psycho as his favorite book, which means we have vastly different tastes in literature.

count55
12-01-2008, 05:55 PM
I just don't like the idea that NBA players can't develop new wrinkles. Also Troy's situation is different than Reggie's. Turning Reggie into a basket attacking finisher would have required athletic abilities that he just didn't have. I know that Troy's not the strongest dude around, but I don't see why that means he can't learn to shoot a jump hook over a 6'7" defender.

And just for the record, I like Troy as a player, and I'd probably like him as a person even though he cited American Psycho as his favorite book, which means we have vastly different tastes in literature.


What you're proposing isn't a wrinkle. It's a change to the basic nature of his game. At this stage, my belief is that Troy trying to develop any kind of back to the basket game would do more harm than good.

There are other things he can do to improve, but trying to make him learn a post game, even a rudimentary one, will likely make him less effective, not more.

Plus, trying to get Troy into post position would likely be disruptive to the offensive flow and the rest of the team.

NBA players can acquire or improve skills, like ball handling or more range on their shot, but they are well past the point of changing the basic nature of their game. There are far too many things that Troy would have to learn to make him be effective, even in short stints, in the post.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 06:12 PM
Am I the only one who remembers Reggie, at 53 years old, dunking on the entire Jersey nets team to send the game to overtime?

d_c
12-01-2008, 06:19 PM
I know that Troy's not the strongest dude around, but I don't see why that means he can't learn to shoot a jump hook over a 6'7" defender.

The fact that he's in his 8th NBA season, works his butt off in the gym and has made zero inroads to being a low post player tells you how physical and athletic NBA level players are and how hard it is to get a shot off in this league compared to college.

ChicagoJ
12-01-2008, 06:39 PM
I wish Dale Davis would have developed the ability to at least draw iron on free throws. It was not in his game, and I can accept that and appreciate what he did do well.

True. Except that I found it hard to appreciate what he did well for fear that next next monster rebound or intimidating defensive play would be negated because he couldn't get rid of the ball fast enough to avoid being fouled.

I think you and others make some good points, but Dale's game had a fatal flaw (especially in the fourth quarter) which is why Bird often benched Dale and played Austin. That's different that just "improving a weakness". Reggie may have been weak at dribble penetration, but he also had the patented floater and was far from being a one-dimensional jumpshooter.

I'd like Troy to be tougher, and against certain physical players it might actually be a fatal flaw. But against most of the league, he's still impactive.

NuffSaid
12-01-2008, 07:11 PM
I know he'll never be a traditional post-up guy, but why shouldn't we expect him to develop a go-to move and learn how to punish a smaller defender in the post? I'm not asking him to post up Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor, but I would like him to be able to post up Rashard Lewis and Gerald Wallace. The way his game is now it seems like he'd have trouble scoring with TJ Ford guarding him if you made him start with his back to the basket. Look at Rasho's game against Atlanta if you want to see an excellent example of knowing how to exploit smaller defenders in the post.

I like Troy and am pleased with his play this year, but if you watched the Houston game, it seemed like a good example of stats not telling the whole story. From the box score it looks like he had a great game, and his shooting in the 4th quarter was certainly integral to the win, but for the majority of the game he was being outplayed by both Louis Scola and Carl Landry.

As for offensive rebounding, there are some extraneous circumstances that lead to his lower numbers. I don't think that Troy is a great offensive rebounder even under the perfect conditions. However, with Dunleavy out we only have 2 decent 3-point shooters in our starting lineup: Danny and Troy. In order to space the floor and give guys like Daniels and TJ room to work in the paint, Troy needs to spend a fair bit of time on the perimeter. Also, we're running an offense that pulls the bigs away from the basket, thus making offensive rebounds harder to come by. Even Foster's offensive rebound numbers are down this year. In Troy's defense, I've noticed that he seems to have learned the Jeff Foster back-tap volleyball rebound. I don't think I ever remember seeing him do that before this year.
Excellent insight! I think you just pin-pointed exactly how Murphy's being used within JOB's offense and why we won't see the type of player we want to see out of him until Dunleavy returns.

Still, one of the reasons this team continues to struggle is because players really aren't attacking the basket in bunches to finish "at the basket" as opposed to "in front of the rim". I know this is taking this thread in a different direction, but this somewhat plays into why some people don't think Troy is being that effective.

When you really look at dribble penetration, the only player we have so far who has incorporated this aspect consistently into his game is TJ Ford. We see Granger driving into the paint occasionally, but that's usually on fastbreaks. Ironically, mose of TJ's dribble penetration happens in much the same way. But, like Quis, he will more often than not come from the perimeter and drive to the basket. However, unlike Quis, TJ will try to finish at the rim. This is why I believe this team isn't getting so many foul calls; not enough drives directly to the basket. (Well, that and little respect from the refs; but in truth another part of this equation is the Pacers are a jump shooting team first and foremost.).

Murphy is literally parked out on the perimeter to pull his defender out from the paint. The problem as I see it has been that his defenders have gotten back at him quicker than he can take the shot. He'll pump fake, but generally instead of driving to the basket he makes the pass. That right there IS the problem. He needs to identify the mismatch and attack the basket whenever possible.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 07:17 PM
But against most of the league, he's still impactive.
:laugh: Ok, that's just classic. Or was it classical? Classicalian?

BlueNGold
12-01-2008, 08:09 PM
Assuming that his defense has improved, which is a stretch since his blocks and steals are NOT up even with 4 more minutes on the floor, his offense is noticeably worse.

On offense, his numbers are either the same or lower than last year. His FG% is down from 45.5 to 42%. His 3pt% is down almost a full percentage. His FT% is 57-58%, down from nearly 80%. His minutes are up, but his ppg is down. Not surprisingly, his points per attempt are down from last year.

Maybe he's wearing himself out playing all that lockdown D.

Hicks
12-01-2008, 08:15 PM
When was Troy's defense EVER based on how many blocks or steals he was getting? I think what others are referring to is that he's doing a better job of playing on-ball defense. Staying in front of his man, battling with his man, or effectively fronting his man.

BlueNGold
12-01-2008, 08:24 PM
When was Troy's defense EVER based on how many blocks or steals he was getting? I think what others are referring to is that he's doing a better job of playing on-ball defense. Staying in front of his man, battling with his man, or effectively fronting his man.

Sure, it's not what Troy's defense is based on...but for most PF's blocks are an important stat.

This is really the root of the issue. The fact blocks are not something you factor into a Troy Murphy Defense analysis, is troubling for a PF. Protecting the paint is an important facet of that position if you want any post season success. Otherwise, it's a red carpet to the rim.

Seriously, Troy's game is what I expect a SG or SF should be doing...and doing better. Dale Davis is an infinitely better PF IMO...and he's far from perfect...yet was an important cog on the team that made the finals.

Hicks
12-01-2008, 08:30 PM
Troy's just unique. He's a niche player who has these certain things he does well or very well, but many typical things you would expect a PF to do that he just can't. I think he's someone you have to just accept for what he is and try not to look too hard for things that will never be there.

d_c
12-01-2008, 08:32 PM
Dale Davis is an infinitely better PF IMO

It's really not even an opinion. While Davis had his shortcomings, he did way more things you ask for out of a PF than Murphy currently does.

Anthem
12-01-2008, 08:55 PM
Assuming that his defense has improved, which is a stretch since his blocks and steals are NOT up
Ouch. I think I'm done with this argument. I've burned enough energy on it, somebody else can take over from here.

Quis
12-01-2008, 09:09 PM
Murphy certainly isn't the prototypical PF, but that doesn't mean he's worthless. Despite the flimsy excuses of his haters, he's consistently shown that he's one of the league's elite rebounders. He's also a nice passer and a pretty good scorer whose shooting causes a nice miss-match.

All-in-all the positive outweighs the negative enough to make him a pretty good player.

Jonathan
12-02-2008, 11:58 AM
What were your expectations? He's been far better than I'd expected.

I was expecting a better FG% and more points with Mike Dunleavy Jr out & the upgrade at the PG position.

Jonathan
12-02-2008, 12:06 PM
, he's consistently shown that he's one of the league's elite rebounders. He's also a nice passer and a pretty good scorer whose shooting causes a nice miss-match.

All-in-all the positive outweighs the negative enough to make him a pretty good player.

Murphy has never made the playoffs in his career. He is not one of league's elite rebounders. Rasho knocks down more perimeter jumpers than him and Murphy is not a good overall shooter. He is avg a .420 FG% & is making below 60% of his free throws. I AM SICK OF THE LOGIC, A GUY CAN HIT THREES MAKING HIM A GOOD SHOOTER. I do not consider a player a good shooter @ any level of ball unless he makes over 80% of his free throws.

OakMoses
12-02-2008, 02:16 PM
I do not consider a player a good shooter @ any level of ball unless he makes over 80% of his free throws.

Apparently there are only 72 good shooters in the NBA. Here are some guys who aren't good shooters: Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol, Jamal Crawford, Antawn Jamison, Tracy McGrady, Rudy Gay, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, JR Smith, Ron Artest, Tim Duncan, Jordan Farmar, etc.

Jonathan
12-02-2008, 02:35 PM
Apparently there are only 72 good shooters in the NBA. Here are some guys who aren't good shooters: Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol, Jamal Crawford, Antawn Jamison, Tracy McGrady, Rudy Gay, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, JR Smith, Ron Artest, Tim Duncan, Jordan Farmar, etc.

The majority of those players are streaky shooters. Pau Gasol/Tim Duncan are big men. Farmer is not a good shooter at all. Reggie Miller, Mark Price, Chris Mullin are shooters. They are so rare in today's game. Y'all Must have forgot.

OakMoses
12-02-2008, 03:34 PM
The majority of those players are streaky shooters. Pau Gasol/Tim Duncan are big men. Farmer is not a good shooter at all. Reggie Miller, Mark Price, Chris Mullin are shooters. They are so rare in today's game. Y'all Must have forgot.

I think what we're having here is a problem of degree. We're talking about "good" shooters, and you trot out the names of Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, and Mark Price. That's like talking about "good" QB's and trotting out names like Unitas, Elway, Montana, Marino, etc. Those guys are hall-of-fame great shooters, to call them good is a huge understatement.

I'd call Troy Murphy and the guys I mentioned good shooters, but I wouldn't call any of them great.

Oh, and by the way, Troy's career Free Throw percentage is 78%. That's quite close to your 80% cut off. I don't think it's fair to cite his poor FT% this season as a reason that he's no good.

ChicagoJ
12-02-2008, 03:48 PM
It's really not even an opinion. While Davis had his shortcomings, he did way more things you ask for out of a PF than Murphy currently does.

Things you ask for, things I ask for, but not necessarily what Jim O'Brien asks for.

Jonathan
12-02-2008, 03:52 PM
Oh, and by the way, Troy's career Free Throw percentage is 78%. That's quite close to your 80% cut off. I don't think it's fair to cite his poor FT% this season as a reason that he's no good.

This team is on a losing streak. Attendence is still mediocre. We had a good vibe early in the season but will lose it if/when we continue to lose games. I just feel that by playing Mc Roberts & Maceo we might inject some more energy in this team. I never said they should be playing in the fourth quater. Maybe Murphy will be more productive if we rest him more. It is a long season. Your point about him being close to 80% Free throw shooter on his career and the fact he is only shooting 60% this season further makes me wonder how fatigued he really is.

NapTonius Monk
12-02-2008, 04:08 PM
Do you think fatigue is really a factor this early in the season?

CableKC
12-02-2008, 04:22 PM
Do you think fatigue is really a factor this early in the season?
Yes I do. Most notably in the 2nd QTR and the 4th QTR.

ChicagoJ
12-02-2008, 04:33 PM
Have you ever sprinted for 23-35 yards at a time for 48 straight minutes?

Yes, there is fatigue every game.

I think it is within the range of reasonable to say that O'Brien's short rotations and milking of the veterans leaves them tired at the end of thier on-court rotations.

Country Boy
12-02-2008, 04:57 PM
Have you ever sprinted for 23-35 yards at a time for 48 straight minutes?

Yes, there is fatigue every game.

I think it is within the range of reasonable to say that O'Brien's short rotations and milking of the veterans leaves them tired at the end of thier on-court rotations.

That's why they practice free throws when they are tired. Shooting free throws is much more mental and technique than a product of being tired.

CableKC
12-02-2008, 05:09 PM
Have you ever sprinted for 23-35 yards at a time for 48 straight minutes?

Yes, there is fatigue every game.

I think it is within the range of reasonable to say that O'Brien's short rotations and milking of the veterans leaves them tired at the end of thier on-court rotations.
This is an interesting read from Andrew Pena over at RealGM about this particular topic ( I also thnk that someone here had cited this stat as well )

http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/150/20081126/first_half_gold_second_half_blue/


For quite some time NBA games have been played over four quarters of twelve minutes each. Maybe Pacers coach Jim O'Brien should remind his players that when they break at halftime, the game is far from over.

Indiana is 5-8, with three consecutive losses, heading into their battle with Houston on Wednesday night. In each of their last three losses – against Dallas, Miami and Orlando – the Pacers led at the midway point.

They also held a lead at halftime against Philadelphia, Cleveland and Phoenix, three more losses that came in the early part of the month.

In addition to that, they were beating the Mavericks, Magic, 76ers and Cavaliers after three quarters, further proving just how terrible they have been in the fourth quarter this season.

Having the reputation of being a "first-half" team is one thing, but collapsing in the second half six times in thirteen games is frightening.

Not surprisingly, their issues in the second half, and fourth quarter specifically, have been a result of both poor offense and porous defense. It could be that they still aren't disciplined and cohesive enough to keep the clamps on opponents, or that they still aren't seasoned enough as a team to withstand the inevitable run that every NBA team makes.

"For us to become a good basketball team and win consistently or win a decent amount of these games we've got to finish down the stretch. I don't know what we were ahead going into the third, but we've been down this road before and for whatever reason we didn't execute," Jeff Foster said on Tuesday night after another disappointing loss.

2008-09 Quarter Scoring Breakdowns
Team: First, Second, Third, Fourth
IND: 28.8, 23.8, 23.5, 23.5
OPP: 23.9, 25.1, 23.9, 25.3

As you can see, Indiana's scoring averages drop in each quarter. If their defense was consistent, an early start wouldn't necessarily be an issue, but that is far from the case.

Looking at their opponent's scoring averages it's really the fourth quarter, and not the third, during which the Pacers are losing games.

Either way, the question remains – why are they losing so many games in crunch time?

Are they losing steam?

It could be that they are pushing the ball too hard, and exerting too much energy at the start of games. That would explain why they score a game-high 28.8 points in the first, and appear to play the best defense in the first and third quarter, when they have halftime to catch their collective breath.

Are they losing focus on the defensive end?

Crumbling late – especially as they did against Cleveland when they allowed the Cavs to score 40 points in the fourth – is obviously a huge problem. They also need to start taking better take of the basketball though. Danny Granger is averaging 1.3 turnovers in the fourth quarter, second to just Minnesota's Sebastian Telfair (who has played 72 fewer fourth-quarter minutes).

Do they lack the mental toughness to hang onto leads against tough opponents?

Comeback victories by teams like Phoenix, Cleveland, Orlando and Dallas – all of whom have enjoyed some measure of postseason success – clearly indicates that Indiana is still far behind the contenders in each conference.

Is it Jim O'Brien?

Some are wondering why Jarrett Jack has gotten significant time in the fourth quarter, and the Pacers have been manhandled by the opposing team's bench this season. The starters are averaging 74.6 points, while the bench is posting just 25.1 points per game. They have the 6th-highest scoring starting unit in the NBA, but are 24th in bench scoring. The reserves need to produce better, and more effectively.

Have guys like Granger and T.J. Ford been unable to handle the pressure of being the go-to option down the stretch?

Well, Granger is averaging 6.5 points in the final quarter, but is shooting just 41.4% from the floor. There is also that turnover problem I mentioned earlier. Ford, meanwhile, is posting 4.5 points and 0.8 assists on 41.3% shooting in the fourth. A strong argument could be made that both need to be more efficient with the game hanging in the balance.

Eight of their next nine opponents, beginning with the Rockets on Wednesday night, qualified for the playoffs last spring.

Chances are that they won't even be building huge leads to blow against teams like the Lakers, Pistons and Celtics, so holding onto any sort of lead will be tougher than ever.

"It's very frustrating. It's a habit we're going to have to learn to break or we're going to be very disappointed this year," Granger said following the loss to Dallas on Tuesday night. "We just can't seem to close teams out. [I] can't tell you why. I don't know."

If the Pacers aren't able to correct this issue over the next two weeks, they could easily fall even deeper into the basement of the central division.

Peck and UB, this particular topic is OT for this particular thread about whether TRophy is worthless or not, so it's up to you guys if you want to create a seperate topic on this. I think that this is actually a particularly interesting topic that we can discuss....or more importantly something that TPTB has recognized and can address :banghead:.

PacerGuy
12-02-2008, 10:44 PM
I hate double-double's! :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, Murph is my first choice given the talent in the league at his position, but for what we have & the style we play, there are much worse players then Murph.

If I've said it before I'll say it again....
BUT...
This time I'll add:
"Tell Kobe He's "worthless" B**ch!!!"

NapTonius Monk
12-02-2008, 10:52 PM
Game winner on an offensive board! Gotta love it!

NapTonius Monk
12-02-2008, 11:05 PM
Have you ever sprinted for 23-35 yards at a time for 48 straight minutes?

Yes, there is fatigue every game.

I think it is within the range of reasonable to say that O'Brien's short rotations and milking of the veterans leaves them tired at the end of thier on-court rotations.

I understand there is fatigue every game. But I was asking more in the sense of weary legs 16 games into the season. It would seem to me that the players that were here for JOB's offense last year would be conditioned for this pace, knowing what to expect. And to answer your question, unless I'm running for a dinner table, I don't run.

Anthem
12-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I feel vindicated.

count55
12-02-2008, 11:17 PM
I feel vindicated.

I hear they have some good new meds for that. Clean it up right away.

BlueNGold
12-02-2008, 11:24 PM
I feel vindicated.

I figured you would...and to some extent you should. However, even Sarunas had a spectacular game or two. Where does he play again?

The truth is, the Lakers did not bring their A-game and everyone knows it. On any given night in the NBA, anything can happen. That's why a sub .500 team is 2-0 against Boston and LA...and why Troy can have the game of his life against Bynum, Odom and Gasol.

Let's check back and see if Troy leads us to the playoffs. Better yet, let's see if he can ever put up double doubles in the second round of any playoff series. Troy has never played in the playoffs and there's a good reason for that. He's Mr. Stat Man. Mr. December.

Can you tell I'm embarrassed...:blush:...bitter....? LOL.

Wage
12-02-2008, 11:30 PM
I figured you would...and to some extent you should. However, even Sarunas had a spectacular game or two. Where does he play again?

The truth is, the Lakers did not bring their A-game and everyone knows it. On any given night in the NBA, anything can happen. That's why a sub .500 team is 2-0 against Boston and LA...and why Troy can have the game of his life against Bynum, Odom and Gasol.

Let's check back and see if Troy leads us to the playoffs. Better yet, let's see if he can ever put up double doubles in the second round of any playoff series. Troy has never played in the playoffs and there's a good reason for that. He's Mr. Stat Man. Mr. December.

Can you tell I'm embarrassed...:blush:...bitter....? LOL.

Game of his life? You really haven't watched him play this year have you? This probably was his 3rd best game this season, nowhere near the game of his life.

Anthem
12-02-2008, 11:31 PM
I figured you would...and to some extent you should. However, even Sarunas had a spectacular game or two. Where does he play again?
But Troy's been doing this consistently. After a rocky start to the season, Troy's gotten double figure rebounds for 9 straight games. I don't know the last time a Pacer did that. His scoring's not really high, but only once this season has he taken more than 11 shots (and then he hit half). If you take out the Philly/OKC games in the middle of November (where he only played about a dozen minutes per), he's only had single digit rebounding 3 times this season, and never less than 8.

Dude hasn't rebounded like this since he was a rookie. I don't remember the last time we had a guy putting up these kind of numbers. This game is not a fluke.

MrSparko
12-02-2008, 11:33 PM
I figured you would...and to some extent you should. However, even Sarunas had a spectacular game or two. Where does he play again?

The truth is, the Lakers did not bring their A-game and everyone knows it. On any given night in the NBA, anything can happen. That's why a sub .500 team is 2-0 against Boston and LA...and why Troy can have the game of his life against Bynum, Odom and Gasol.

Let's check back and see if Troy leads us to the playoffs. Better yet, let's see if he can ever put up double doubles in the second round of any playoff series. Troy has never played in the playoffs and there's a good reason for that. He's Mr. Stat Man. Mr. December.

Can you tell I'm embarrassed...:blush:...bitter....? LOL.

Troy Murphy's 15 games this year is better than any season Sarunas played in the NBA, but your point isn't entirely lost on me.

BlueNGold
12-02-2008, 11:35 PM
But Troy's been doing this consistently. After a rocky start to the season, Troy's gotten double figure rebounds for 9 straight games. I don't know the last time a Pacer did that. His scoring's not really high, but only once this season has he taken more than 11 shots (and then he hit half). If you take out the Philly/OKC games in the middle of November (where he only played about a dozen minutes per), he's only had single digit rebounding 3 times this season, and never less than 8.

Dude hasn't rebounded like this since he was a rookie. I don't remember the last time we had a guy putting up these kind of numbers. This game is not a fluke.

Ok. I've been wrong before. ....so, does this mean we have our new starting PF? I thought that was the supposed Big Hole on this team.

D-BONE
12-02-2008, 11:46 PM
But Troy's been doing this consistently. After a rocky start to the season, Troy's gotten double figure rebounds for 9 straight games. I don't know the last time a Pacer did that. His scoring's not really high, but only once this season has he taken more than 11 shots (and then he hit half). If you take out the Philly/OKC games in the middle of November (where he only played about a dozen minutes per), he's only had single digit rebounding 3 times this season, and never less than 8.

Dude hasn't rebounded like this since he was a rookie. I don't remember the last time we had a guy putting up these kind of numbers. This game is not a fluke.

Definitely not a fluke. It was, however, the first time he's really figured that heavily in a late game situation. He hit a big fourth quarter three recently, but it was a game we ended up losing. Somebody help me out. Was it Charlotte or prior?

Anyway, this was his first big winning clutch impact moment. This was something that I feel like was kind of missing from him credentials here despite the generally solid play. Distinguishing himself this way may lead to even more confidence moving forward. At minimum it really validates what he's been doing so far.

Certainly convinces me. I've moved from very dubious of him to content through the latter stages of last year and early this season with his improved play. But something was still lacking for me. Not anymore. Of course, he still has certain limitations, but this cements it for me. I reiterate from my earlier post-he is our best player amongst the inside rotation.

Infinite MAN_force
12-02-2008, 11:48 PM
Good as Troy is playing, he still isn't PF of the future, hes a poor fit next to Hibbert for one thing. Too slow. If anything this might increase his trade value, which I'm cool with. For now, happy to see him playing well.

D-BONE
12-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Ok. I've been wrong before. ....so, does this mean we have our new starting PF? I thought that was the supposed Big Hole on this team.

I think the vacuum is an interior power type. Do the dirtry work defense and rebounding inside. If said person could add some offensive threat on the low block, even better. That role could come from the 4 or 5. Murphy is a legit starting 4 especially if with that type of rugged 5.

Really, though, the positions aren't that important-who's the PF or C. Find a guy with size that fits that profile and call him 4 and Murphy 5 as long as they complement one another. Don't know if Murphy's the long-term solution, but if he can maintain this level of play it's hard to complain about him.

Spirit
12-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Ok. I've been wrong before. ....so, does this mean we have our new starting PF? I thought that was the supposed Big Hole on this team.

Biggest hole IMO is Center.

Jonathan
12-03-2008, 10:45 AM
See What Happens when McRoberts gets minutes. :dance:

ChicagoJ
12-03-2008, 11:24 AM
This is the problem when fans use salary as an indication of whether a guy can play the game or not.

Troy Murphy is a legit NBA player, even if he's softer than I would typically prefer at PF.

He is overpaid (by how much, I don't know), and he may not have much more "upside potential" in future seasons, but if we were picking guys to just play the game today he would get a reasonable amount of consideration.

I still want a more physical PF for the future, but he's the best we've got right now.

ChicagoJ
12-03-2008, 11:26 AM
I don't remember the last time we had a guy putting up these kind of numbers.

:banghead:

EDIT - In the good old days, earlier this decade, we had a PF/C that averaged 76 games per year over three seasons and put up a three-year cumulative average of 20.0 points, 10.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, oh and also 2.4 blocks per game. But he's been chased out of town as an overpaid villian.

Myopia - for the WIN!!

geetee
12-03-2008, 11:42 AM
I believe Murphy nailed clutch back-to-back 3 pointers vs. the Rockets late in the 4th quarter that brought the P's back for the eventual win. He had 21 points and 14 boards in that victory and was POG.

Poor Murphy, another case of what have you done for me lately.

Major Cold
12-03-2008, 12:08 PM
This team still needs a POWERforward. But that player may not replace Troy in the starting lineup.

count55
12-03-2008, 12:12 PM
This is the problem when fans use salary as an indication of whether a guy can play the game or not.

Troy Murphy is a legit NBA player, even if he's softer than I would typically prefer at PF.

He is overpaid (by how much, I don't know), and he may not have much more "upside potential" in future seasons, but if we were picking guys to just play the game today he would get a reasonable amount of consideration.

I still want a more physical PF for the future, but he's the best we've got right now.

I pretty much agree with this. He's a placeholder who's giving us some decent production.

My take on Troy is that he may not give us what we need (or want), but he does give us pretty much everything that he can. I'll cheer for him, and take what I can get. At this point, if someone is expecting him to be something different, then that's pretty much their problem, not Troy's.

Hicks
12-03-2008, 12:25 PM
Murphy is averaging 11 points, 11 rebounds, and 2.5 assists.

aceace
12-03-2008, 01:28 PM
I don't think Troy is overpaid with what he is doing this year. He's 3rd in the league in rebounds with a minimum of 15 games played. That commands big bucks in this league. I promise you that he could get that right now if he were a free agent.

count55
12-03-2008, 01:39 PM
I don't think Troy is overpaid with what he is doing this year. He's 3rd in the league in rebounds with a minimum of 15 games played. That commands big bucks in this league. I promise you that he could get that right now if he were a free agent.

No, he couldn't. There's not really any way to prove it one way or the other, but I would take that bet with a very high level of confidence.

Major Cold
12-03-2008, 01:48 PM
Reggie Evans was a great rebounder when he was on the market. He makes less than troy.

Country Boy
12-03-2008, 01:56 PM
I pretty much agree with this. He's a placeholder who's giving us some decent production.

My take on Troy is that he may not give us what we need (or want), but he does give us pretty much everything that he can. I'll cheer for him, and take what I can get. At this point, if someone is expecting him to be something different, then that's pretty much their problem, not Troy's.

And what do we need as a team? What do we want as a team? Take what I can get. Name a player that you think could fill his role on this team. You act like he is some scrub walk on.

RamBo_Lamar
12-03-2008, 01:59 PM
This is going to be my first and only post in this thread.


It is going straight to the "ignored thread" list before I say something
derogatory about whoever started it.

avoidingtheclowns
12-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Reggie Evans was a great rebounder when he was on the market. He makes less than troy.

all reggie evans does well is grab balls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itu6BeKEi8Y). with troy it isn't JUST the rebounds - it's the fact that he is a rebounder AND a shooting PF. the NBA pays for shooters and pays extra if you can do something else even semi-valuable besides shoot. i don't think he'd get the same deal (definitely fewer years) but i think some team probably convince themselves to pay him money in the dunleavy ballpark.

count55
12-03-2008, 02:12 PM
And what do we need as a team? What do we want as a team? Take what I can get. Name a player that you think could fill his role on this team. You act like he is some scrub walk on.

No, I don't. I act like he is a solid player with some very real limitations and a prohibitive contract. I'm pleased to get his contribution, but this team, in order to make a significant step towards contention, needs improved interior defense and post offense. Troy provides neither of those things, but he does contribute in other ways. That's what I'll take.

No one with an IQ above room temperature is going to be satisfied with a perimeter-oriented power forward who, on his best days, is a below average defender and is pulling down $11mm.

That being said, I've been on record as that Troy is overpaid, but underrated. I was basically agreeing that he's a legit NBA player, and better than a lot of the options that are out there.

DrFife
12-03-2008, 02:21 PM
No, he couldn't. There's not really any way to prove it one way or the other, but I would take that bet with a very high level of confidence.

I hinted on another thread that I've developed an analytical process that objectively projects players' "worth" in NBA-salary terms according to their compiled statistics -- NOT according to my opinions. (Sorry, Anthem, I don't have a link.) With the notable exception of Andrew Bynum, who we knew would be overpaid due to his p-o-t-e-n-t-i-a-l, the system has done quite well at predicting salaries that FAs signed over the summer. BTW, special kudos to you, Count; your opinions on what various players (e.g., Jarrett Jack) may be able to sign for have been right on the mark, according to my analysis.

So while I certainly cannot offer "proof," I will run a valuation around Christmas and report Mr. Murphy's (and a few others') data-driven should-be salary. (My best guess at the moment is that he still is being overpaid, but "only" by about $1-2 million.... Did I just say "only"?!)

Anthem
12-03-2008, 02:38 PM
I hinted on another thread that I've developed an analytical process that objectively projects players' "worth" in NBA-salary terms according to their compiled statistics -- NOT according to my opinions.
Notice that I'm not disputing your model here, but allow me to point out that any model you develop is intrinsically your own opinions. They may be correct opinions, but it's always your opinions. I worked for 4 years of my life on model bias; trust me on this. Your opinions shape the analysis at every level.

aceace
12-03-2008, 02:41 PM
Reggie Evans was a great rebounder when he was on the market. He makes less than troy.Reggie Evans (5M) is without doubt one of the worst shooters in this league.(31% and plays inside) Only Big Ben is worse. Murphy puts points on the board. Reggie does not play near the minutes Troy does. 10M for what Troy gives us is more than fair. Look at who he is ahead in rebounding on NBA dot com. He's shooting 40% from 3 which makes him a threat.

count55
12-03-2008, 02:49 PM
I hinted on another thread that I've developed an analytical process that objectively projects players' "worth" in NBA-salary terms according to their compiled statistics -- NOT according to my opinions. (Sorry, Anthem, I don't have a link.) With the notable exception of Andrew Bynum, who we knew would be overpaid due to his p-o-t-e-n-t-i-a-l, the system has done quite well at predicting salaries that FAs signed over the summer. BTW, special kudos to you, Count; your opinions on what various players (e.g., Jarrett Jack) may be able to sign for have been right on the mark, according to my analysis.

So while I certainly cannot offer "proof," I will run a valuation around Christmas and report Mr. Murphy's (and a few others') data-driven should-be salary. (My best guess at the moment is that he still is being overpaid, but "only" by about $1-2 million.... Did I just say "only"?!)

The problem is that there are significant intervening factors. The primary one is the salary cap and its implications. The pool of teams that have the available cap space to offer what Murphy's statistical valuation might be is limited. The second would be teams actually looking for somebody with Troy's skill set and experience. These two things basically mean that it's not an open market.

The other major factor is the perceived value proposition. This is where Troy has some major strikes against him. While he's not old, per se, he's also not young. He is pretty much a finished product, and many teams will be more interested in players (at that price) think will continue to develop. Finally, and most damaging, he is largely considered to have not earned out his last contract. Whether this is statistically the case or not, the perception will weigh heavy. Under this current contract, Troy's scoring average has been 21% below his "contract year", and his rebounding average has been over 25% below his "contract year". (BTW...this entire discussion pretends that he goes on the market today.)

All that being said, it is a distinct possibility, if not a likelihood, that Troy, playing as he is now, could end up being more valuable and productive than (at least some of) the people who end up commanding that kind of money next year, but that's more a function of the errors being made in assigning value than it is vindication that Troy's worth it. (Of course, now you get into market, and does that prove value, or is value just truly a perceived thing, etc., which is a pretty big rabbit hole.)

On the whole, I guess I'd just say that, even if it were statistically proven that Troy is within spitting distance of earning his contract, I would still be extremely confident that he would not be able to get that contract on the "open" market today.

DrFife
12-03-2008, 04:18 PM
Notice that I'm not disputing your model here, but allow me to point out that any model you develop is intrinsically your own opinions. They may be correct opinions, but it's always your opinions. I worked for 4 years of my life on model bias; trust me on this. Your opinions shape the analysis at every level.

By "opinions" I meant that I did not deviate from a model based on aggregate (league) data to show favoritism for individual players.

Four years? Don't stop now; you're just getting to the good stuff.

DrFife
12-03-2008, 04:23 PM
On the whole, I guess I'd just say that, even if it were statistically proven that Troy is within spitting distance of earning his contract, I would still be extremely confident that he would not be able to get that contract on the "open" market today.

Agreed, and with the financial crisis, future FAs may see salary offers dropping faster than gasoline prices*. Still, the accuracy in our predictions demonstrates that stats serve as a reference point in negotiations.

* (I didn't say "stock prices." That hurts too much.)

Naptown_Seth
12-03-2008, 05:21 PM
No, I don't. I act like he is a solid player with some very real limitations and a prohibitive contract. I'm pleased to get his contribution, but this team, in order to make a significant step towards contention, needs improved interior defense and post offense. Troy provides neither of those things, but he does contribute in other ways. That's what I'll take.

No one with an IQ above room temperature is going to be satisfied with a perimeter-oriented power forward who, on his best days, is a below average defender and is pulling down $11mm.

That being said, I've been on record as that Troy is overpaid, but underrated. I was basically agreeing that he's a legit NBA player, and better than a lot of the options that are out there.
Ditto.

From me Troy gets blasted when deserved and praised when deserved. This thread wasn't started when Troy was grabbing tons of tough boards and knocking down shots.

I'm so sick of this outrage over stuff placed totally out of context. Right now we all love Troy's game, at least the sane posters that is. In the recent game threads I and others have praised his improved play. Frankly his tip-in was a tiny blip on the radar of what he has been doing well THIS YEAR.

If Troy played this way in GS that final year, or if Dun was playing at his last season level, then GS NEVER WOULD HAVE TRADED THEM. Not only that, but if either of them had played this well in Indy post trade, rather than the horrible 3pt shooting Dun brought with him and the blah rebounding Troy showed, that team wouldn't have missed the playoffs.


And on top of all this, Troy is still overpaid even as he has been recently. Think about it, $11m for a guy that can't create his own shot or post up or make a big one on one defensive play against solid offensive post players (not just all stars).


TROY IS A GOOD GUY. Hell, I've never stopped saying that. I like him, I think Dun seems pretty nice, and I think both of them earned a lot of the criticism that was following THEIR GAME. Again that's their game and not them.



PS - no Quis driving and drawing the inside defense, no rebound tip-in for Troy, period. Long jumpers do not a miracle tip-in make. And yet Quis had a "bad" box score.

In other words, sometimes players also benefit from the roster around them and how they are being used. Maybe Rick held them back (though most players have some of their best years playing for him - see Artest, Fred Jones, perhaps Stackhouse), and maybe JOB is helping them. My feeling is that Quis, TJ, Rush and the improved Granger are meshing nicely with what Troy can do.

Plus Troy looks more active and healthy than he previously did.

Naptown_Seth
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Maybe the real discussion should be about how/why Troy has seen this big improvement.

I mean early on he was living on a lot of soft/uncontested defensive boards and still has a pretty out of whack OFF/DEF rebounding ratio compared to most top rebounders, including Foster.

But in the last 8-10 games it seems like he has been coming in very aggressive on some highly contested defensive boards and has done a pretty good job at denying 2nd chances for opponents.

Anyone who watched the team closely the last 2 years knows that Troy now doesn't match Troy of then. Something changed, and not just the coach because it was JOB last year too.



BTW, I also agree with the feeling of "see what happens when McBob plays". The dude may pick up fouls for playing too aggressive, but he does get after it and does create havoc for the other team. I really would like to see him worked up more because when you talk about PF of the future he's showing the talent to be a reliable rebounding/defending big that can score his 8-10 per. I think he shows potential to be better than both Troy and Jeff, he just needs some refinement.

aceace
12-03-2008, 06:04 PM
Seth one thing I remember reading about Troy before the season started was that he had lost about 20 lbs. I'm sure he has more energy, quicker feet etc.

Peck
12-03-2008, 06:08 PM
The only thing I wish was that the NBA would keep/restrict/prohibit/whatever players salary's from being published.

The fact that people evaluate a players worth by their contract is just beyond me. Either they play well or they don't. I understand if player A making salary X equals not being able to pay player Z. But going into this season at training camp we all knew that the roster was pretty much set other than whatever they were going to do with Tinsley.

I don't care if Troy Murphy makes more or less money than Maceo Baston, I don't have to pay their checks. On the other hand I care deeply about how players play on the floor and how they mesh with other players.

Troy has faults, always has always will, he is not a typical POWER forward. But he also has some positive attributes and those positives are far more than the fact that in a few years he will be an expiring contract.

CableKC
12-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Maybe the real discussion should be about how/why Troy has seen this big improvement.

I mean early on he was living on a lot of soft/uncontested defensive boards and still has a pretty out of whack OFF/DEF rebounding ratio compared to most top rebounders, including Foster.

But in the last 8-10 games it seems like he has been coming in very aggressive on some highly contested defensive boards and has done a pretty good job at denying 2nd chances for opponents.

Anyone who watched the team closely the last 2 years knows that Troy now doesn't match Troy of then. Something changed, and not just the coach because it was JOB last year too.
At least in terms of rebounding.....you guys will have to tell me if JO'B has emphasized this in the previous season.....but I think that with the addition of Rasho/Hibbert and being paired with Foster.....the 3 of them are doing a much better job of "boxing" out players which ( in turn ) has allowed Murphy to pull down the rebound. I'm totally guessing here....but I suspect that there is a correlation between Foster's drop in rebounding #s this season ( 2.4 ORPG / 3.7 DRPG / 6.1 TRPG ) compared to last season ( 3.4 ORPG / 5.3 DRPG / 8.7 TRPG ) and Murphy's improved Rebounding #s. My guess is that Foster ( and whoever else is on the floor with Murphy in the Frontcourt ) purpose now is to properly "box out" the opposing Frontcourt player ( one of those "fundamentals" that JO'B likes to emphasize ) so that Murphy can swoop in and pull down the Rebound.

As for his scoring, although he hasn't always been consistent....I suspect that having better Scoring options like Ford and Marquis has allowed him to score more often since the defensive pressure is off of him....allowing him to be take between 8-11 FGA ( which he is better suited to be as a 3rd / 4th scoring option ) as opposed to taking 10-14 FGA ( as a 2nd/3rd scoring option on the team ).

Noodle
12-03-2008, 07:55 PM
There is no pleasing some of you guys. Geez. Lets compare Rasho's contract to Troy's. I would then ask is Rasho worth it. My guess is many would say yes. Add Murphy's ability to stretch a defense and bam!, suddenly his contract makes since. Seriously, compare him to other big guys and compare their wages a productiveness, and tell me how overpaid he is. For those who haven't been watching games, I wouldn't call Troy a below average defender. Just watch and pay close attention.

Noodle
12-03-2008, 08:03 PM
At least in terms of rebounding.....you guys will have to tell me if JO'B has emphasized this in the previous season.....but I think that with the addition of Rasho/Hibbert and being paired with Foster.....the 3 of them are doing a much better job of "boxing" out players which ( in turn ) has allowed Murphy to pull down the rebound. I'm totally guessing here....but I suspect that there is a correlation between Foster's drop in rebounding #s this season ( 2.4 ORPG / 3.7 DRPG / 6.1 TRPG ) compared to last season ( 3.4 ORPG / 5.3 DRPG / 8.7 TRPG ) and Murphy's improved Rebounding #s. My guess is that Foster ( and whoever else is on the floor with Murphy in the Frontcourt ) purpose now is to properly "box out" the opposing Frontcourt player ( one of those "fundamentals" that JO'B likes to emphasize ) so that Murphy can swoop in and pull down the Rebound.

As for his scoring, although he hasn't always been consistent....I suspect that having better Scoring options like Ford and Marquis has allowed him to score more often since the defensive pressure is off of him....allowing him to be take between 8-11 FGA ( which he is better suited to be as a 3rd / 4th scoring option ) as opposed to taking 10-14 FGA ( as a 2nd/3rd scoring option on the team ).

Amusing, Foster and Co. get credit from you for Troy's rebounding. Absolutely astounding theory dude.

BlueNGold
12-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Another theory here.

Actually, Foster specialized at watching JO post up and rebounding all the clankers. Now that JO is gone, Foster spends his time boxing out for Murphy.

That's why Jeff's boards are down, and Murphy's are up...

ChicagoJ
12-03-2008, 08:16 PM
Jeff's boards are down because he spent a lot of time rebounding HIS OWN clankers in the past.

The worst thing Jeff can do for his personal rebounding stats is to start hitting his own putback attempts.

Noodle
12-03-2008, 08:18 PM
Foster's rebounds are down because he is spending a majority of his time guarding the oppositions best post player when on the floor. They all box out trust me just watch the game. Good coaching of fundamentals is obvious this season.

ChicagoJ
12-03-2008, 08:20 PM
Foster's rebounds are down because he is spending a majority of his time guarding the oppositions best post player when on the floor. They all box out trust me just watch the game. Good coaching of fundamentals is obvious this season.

But Foster has never been anything special on the defensive glass. His claim-to-fame is ORs. Not that he's a bad rebounder on the defensive glass, just average...

His ORs are down by more than one OR per game from every season since Brad Miller left.

owl
12-03-2008, 08:21 PM
BTW, I also agree with the feeling of "see what happens when McBob plays". The dude may pick up fouls for playing too aggressive, but he does get after it and does create havoc for the other team. I really would like to see him worked up more because when you talk about PF of the future he's showing the talent to be a reliable rebounding/defending big that can score his 8-10 per. I think he shows potential to be better than both Troy and Jeff, he just needs some refinement.


I am very interested in seeing McBob develope. The few times he has taken a shot from the
outside he has hit a majority of them. A more athletic Troy? The guy deserves some minutes.

Noodle
12-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Jeff's boards are down because he spent a lot of time rebounding HIS OWN clankers in the past.

The worst thing Jeff can do for his personal rebounding stats is to start hitting his own putback attempts.

Interesting point. At first I would write it off, but your right. This coupled with his defensive responsibilities, it makes sense that he has lost two boards a game. Jeff has been much better around the rim offensively this year.

ChicagoJ
12-03-2008, 08:26 PM
Interesting point. At first I would write it off, but your right. This coupled with his defensive responsibilities, it makes sense that he has lost two boards a game. Jeff has been much better around the rim offensively this year.

And last year. Remember, I'm normally Foster's biggest critic regarding his inflated ORs and overblown reputation, but he has made progress on this item since O'Brien arrived. Coincidence or point of emphasis? I have no idea.

Putnam
12-03-2008, 08:29 PM
The only thing I wish was that the NBA would keep/restrict/prohibit/whatever players salary's from being published.

There's a great idea!



(I do have to wonder, though, why you left the apostrophe out of the possessive word and put an apostrophe into the plural word.)

CableKC
12-03-2008, 08:38 PM
Amusing, Foster and Co. get credit from you for Troy's rebounding. Absolutely astounding theory dude.
At what point was giving them credit for Murphy's increased rebounds?

I'm saying that I think that Foster/Rasho/Hibbert/McRobert's role inside the paint has shifted more from "pull down the rebound" to "box out the other player" to allow someone else to pull down the rebound. Last season, how many times have I heard everyone complaining about not properly "boxing" out?

That's what I'm trying to say, I think that the players that Murphy are now paired with are doing a better job of "boxing" out.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that Murphy hasn't done anything on his own to improve his rebounding #s I'm guessing that Murphy being healthy makes a difference....but I think that having better Frontcourt Players to be paired with in Rasho and ( to a lesser degree ) Hibbert/McRoberts ( along with Foster ) has made a huge difference in his rebounding game.

Country Boy
12-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Ditto.

From me Troy gets blasted when deserved and praised when deserved. This thread wasn't started when Troy was grabbing tons of tough boards and knocking down shots.

I'm so sick of this outrage over stuff placed totally out of context. Right now we all love Troy's game, at least the sane posters that is. In the recent game threads I and others have praised his improved play. Frankly his tip-in was a tiny blip on the radar of what he has been doing well THIS YEAR.

If Troy played this way in GS that final year, or if Dun was playing at his last season level, then GS NEVER WOULD HAVE TRADED THEM. Not only that, but if either of them had played this well in Indy post trade, rather than the horrible 3pt shooting Dun brought with him and the blah rebounding Troy showed, that team wouldn't have missed the playoffs.


And on top of all this, Troy is still overpaid even as he has been recently. Think about it, $11m for a guy that can't create his own shot or post up or make a big one on one defensive play against solid offensive post players (not just all stars).


TROY IS A GOOD GUY. Hell, I've never stopped saying that. I like him, I think Dun seems pretty nice, and I think both of them earned a lot of the criticism that was following THEIR GAME. Again that's their game and not them.



PS - no Quis driving and drawing the inside defense, no rebound tip-in for Troy, period. Long jumpers do not a miracle tip-in make. And yet Quis had a "bad" box score.

In other words, sometimes players also benefit from the roster around them and how they are being used. Maybe Rick held them back (though most players have some of their best years playing for him - see Artest, Fred Jones, perhaps Stackhouse), and maybe JOB is helping them. My feeling is that Quis, TJ, Rush and the improved Granger are meshing nicely with what Troy can do.

Plus Troy looks more active and healthy than he previously did.

So you agree with the title of this thread? You will never give Troy or Dun their due no matter what they do for one reason, and we all know that reason. The "trade", that sent Jackson out of town. Pretending to be fair with your assements of these two is really disengenous. YOu can't even give him credit for the tip without discounting it with the Quis comment.



I know everyone but Ajbry and I is glad he's gone, but I still wish we could undo that trade. I would want Al gone still but in a different, more cap friendly manner. Oh well. He's one of the few ex-Pacers to continue on or get better after leaving Indy where they were "held back".

Your words!

Doddage
12-03-2008, 09:02 PM
I'm surprised certain Murphy haters haven't posted in this thread ever since it was bumped. I guess there's nothing to say now.

Noodle
12-03-2008, 09:04 PM
At what point was giving them credit for Murphy's increased rebounds?

I'm saying that I think that Foster/Rasho/Hibbert/McRobert's role inside the paint has shifted more from "pull down the rebound" to "box out the other player" to allow someone else to pull down the rebound. Last season, how many times have I heard everyone complaining about not properly "boxing" out?

That's what I'm trying to say, I think that the players that Murphy are now paired with are doing a better job of "boxing" out.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that Murphy hasn't done anything on his own to improve his rebounding #s I'm guessing that Murphy being healthy makes a difference....but I think that having better Frontcourt Players to be paired with in Rasho and ( to a lesser degree ) Hibbert/McRoberts ( along with Foster ) has made a huge difference in his rebounding game.

Now I'm on your level.

It just seems that every time I read anything about Murphy it's negative. The guy has been good since late last season. What's crazy offensively hasn't hit his stride yet this season.

He can beat most PF/C to the rim running. Murphy is VERY athletic, he is only lacking a huge wingspan. People seem concerned about a PF. We need a C. We have Troy.

Reading back, it almost seemed like I jumped on you a bit. Sorry, good points.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2008, 09:59 PM
At what point was giving them credit for Murphy's increased rebounds?

I'm saying that I think that Foster/Rasho/Hibbert/McRobert's role inside the paint has shifted more from "pull down the rebound" to "box out the other player" to allow someone else to pull down the rebound. Last season, how many times have I heard everyone complaining about not properly "boxing" out?

That's what I'm trying to say, I think that the players that Murphy are now paired with are doing a better job of "boxing" out.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that Murphy hasn't done anything on his own to improve his rebounding #s I'm guessing that Murphy being healthy makes a difference....but I think that having better Frontcourt Players to be paired with in Rasho and ( to a lesser degree ) Hibbert/McRoberts ( along with Foster ) has made a huge difference in his rebounding game.
Exactly. And same with Foster. What, he suddenly became a monster offensive player OR he's in a favorable system/roster for him to score a bit more.

Troy definitely looks healthier and has done a much better job with tough boards, but there also seems to be an improvement in roles for each player.

Who's complaining, this stuff is complimentary to the team as a whole.



He can beat most PF/C to the rim running. Murphy is VERY athletic, he is only lacking a huge wingspan. People seem concerned about a PF. We need a C. We have Troy.
Here's the problem - both Dun and Troy showed FLASHES of this brilliance in GS. Troy had some scorching shooting months and would then go deep in the tank, 25% range I mean. So is this a hot month or is this the new Troy? Personally I think this is the best he's looked physically since he's been here, but a GS fan might see this and say "oh, I remember those 4-6 week windows".

You know, just like we do with Ron or Jack or JO.

Hicks
12-05-2008, 12:10 AM
I highly disagree with the notion that Murphy is "VERY athletic." He's athletic, but very plainly so.

Peck
12-05-2008, 12:53 AM
I highly disagree with the notion that Murphy is "VERY athletic." He's athletic, but very plainly so.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would be interested in your definition of "Very Athletic" vs. "plainly athletic"?

Anthem
12-05-2008, 10:09 AM
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would be interested in your definition of "Very Athletic" vs. "plainly athletic"?
Shawne Marion is "very athletic" for a PF.

Murphy is not.

Hicks
12-05-2008, 11:31 AM
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would be interested in your definition of "Very Athletic" vs. "plainly athletic"?

If you play in the NBA, you're athletic, but in this league very athletic is a guy like Amare Stoudemire (unless you're a fan of hyperbole and want to give him some kind of god-like status) of Josh Smith.

JayRedd
12-05-2008, 11:59 AM
By NBA standards, Murphy qualifies as unathletic.

As for Amare, dude is more Predator than he is human.

McKeyFan
12-05-2008, 12:14 PM
If you play in the NBA, you're athletic, but in this league very athletic is a guy like Amare Stoudemire (unless you're a fan of hyperbole and want to give him some kind of god-like status) of Josh Smith.

Dwight Howard
Ben Wallace
Ariza
Bynum
AK 47
and Baron Davis come to mind.

Danny is pretty athletic.

duke dynamite
12-05-2008, 12:22 PM
That's it, I'm getting a Murphy jersey this weekend.

Country Boy
12-05-2008, 12:52 PM
That's it, I'm getting a Murphy jersey this weekend.

Way to go Duke!

CableKC
12-05-2008, 04:32 PM
Now I'm on your level.

It just seems that every time I read anything about Murphy it's negative. The guy has been good since late last season. What's crazy offensively hasn't hit his stride yet this season.

He can beat most PF/C to the rim running. Murphy is VERY athletic, he is only lacking a huge wingspan. People seem concerned about a PF. We need a C. We have Troy.

Reading back, it almost seemed like I jumped on you a bit. Sorry, good points.
That's fine....I wasn't trying to be negative about Troy at all....if anything, I'm with most of you that looks at him for what he is while ignoring that he maybe considered "overpaid" ( which is something that we can't really do anything about ).